Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs
I would imagine they're counting on the FCC making some changes in 5.2, but maybe they're just risking it. After all, the customer base is the only value they're looking for. The FCC fine might be minuscule in comparison, I don't know. Rk At 02:58 PM 11/27/2006, you wrote: Hi, Curious to everyone's thoughts about a regional WISP installing illegal CPE units? They are using Last Mile Gear 120degree Canopy 120 degree sectors (5.2GHz) and then putting the Canopy 5.2GHz SM in dishes at customer locations. I am talking about thousands of CPE installed this way and doing more every day. This company covers several western states (Idaho, Utah, Nevada, etc.) and also does Dish Network satellite TV installs. Is this OK? What are everyone's thoughts? Travis Microserv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs
LOL! Good for the cops. I just signed up a customer last week, a convert from a different system. He had a 24 db grid, using a 1 watt powered over coax amp connected at the antenna, and a linksys WET-11 attached to that through about 30 feet of LMR-400. Said it was unstable that way, which is why he switched... That calculates to a theoretical 250 WATTS EIRP. He was about 3-4 miles from the access point, with a single tree in his backyard blocking the path. I have customers at his distance using a VAGI and 16 dbm radio Which is like... 8 - 9 miles.. He had asked if I'd hook him up using his equipment... Seemed quite disappointed I switched him out and made him buy mine... I was recently asked by a couple of wireless consultants about a poorly working setup they had. It seems they have an omni on a tall downtown rooftop. It's a 9 or 11 db omni with a .5 W amp attached. Just .7 miles away, in direct line of sight, is one of their homes, which has a 24 db grid pointed right at the omni, and the connection, they said, was up and down. They wanted to know if an amp would improve the throughput, which was apparently quite... erratic. After a lot of discussion, they finally told me that a competitor has another omni IN LINE between them and the home and that they thought it was a 15 db omni with a 1 watt amp. I think I finally convinced them that they were signal overloaded, and that changing out the client end for...say.. 9 to 12 db gain antenna would probably help solve the issue... They still seemed taken aback at the notion that they needed less signal, they had assumed that a bi-directional amp was the key... I wondered why everytime I tell someone in that town I provide wireless broadband, they ask how soon I'm moving in... +++ neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington email me at mark at neofast dot net 541-969-8200 Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net - Original Message - From: Forbes Mercy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:13 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs Only one warning in that advice. If the FCC takes any interest which they ususally don't (think CB) the first one they will require testing on is you. We had a person running 40 watts and a quick call around found that the FCC likes to make sure the complaintant is also above board. We've been beseiged with competitors who take the philosophy that causing us interference is their business model. I don't like them as much as any of you but we just had a person in Spokane, WA who praised the police, whom they called, for catching a burglar who was in their house. This was said as they were being hauled off to jail for a pot growing operation in the house that was being burglarized. They called Police then they went to jail. Just remember the law is looking for all abusers not just the one you want them to take out. Forbes -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Mon 11/27/2006 9:23 PM To: WISPA General List Cc: Subject: Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs Me? I'd make a few calls about it. First to them. It's amazing how often management doesn't know the rules. If that won't fix it, I'd call Motorola. If that doesn't work, I'd call the FCC. The last thing this industry needs is people screwing with the one thing that the FCC has been a stickler on. EIRP is a sacred stone. Mess with it and someone at the commission will be getting pissed. Make DAMN sure you know what they are doing and with what frequencies first though. Nothing worse than making that kind of false accusation. And sometimes having someone else call the company and ask around is a good idea. If you can get me a name and number I'd be happy to make a call for you. As would, I'm sure, anyone on the wispa board. Good luck. marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs Travis, What's the illegality? Are they using 5150 - 5250 (indoor use only)? Are they exceeding + 30 dBm EIRP on either the AP or the SM? jack Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, Curious to everyone's thoughts about a regional WISP installing illegal CPE units? They are using Last Mile Gear 120degree Canopy 120 degree sectors (5.2GHz) and then putting the Canopy 5.2GHz SM in dishes at customer locations. I am talking about thousands of CPE installed this way and doing more every day. This company covers several western states (Idaho, Utah, Nevada, etc.) and also does Dish Network satellite TV installs. Is this OK? What are everyone's thoughts? Travis Microserv -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving
Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs
Jon, Good insight, I did not catch what you meant at first. I agree that the ultimate goal is to find a way not to interfer, and I'd rather them be illegal and be off my spectrum. Unlicensed 5.8G belongs to me, right :-) Also Stategically, the fact that they are illegal, and you aren't, and you know about it, can work to the legal party's advantage at a later time in negotiating co-existence. The card doesn't have to be played, while/if everyone is working togeather amicably to attempt maximum co-existence. Trango kicks Canopy's butt right?! :-) I love my Trango, but thats a battle I'll avoid like the plaque. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jon Langeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 12:49 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs That's what I'm saying. They would likely end up moving to another frequency of which may pose more harm to Travis's current network. Not that he should be scared because Trango kicks Canopy's butt right?! :-) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: Of course they aren't going to vounteer to shut down. But the FCC will inforce the rules, and shut them down, if they are illegally operating, and causing harm. They just have better things to do than go on wild goose chases, so you have to deliver proof. I don;t know about you, but if the FCC enforcement burough called me and I was illegal, I'd get legal quick. NOt that I'm a tattle tail, or try and be the police. But ifthey are effecting the quality of my network because they are illegal, they need to be set straight. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jon Langeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs IMO it comes down to if/how they are affecting you and what you want them to do about it? You could persuade or force them to move everything to another freq. which may/may not end up being in your favor. If your trying to get them to give-up and shut the doors...I can't forsee that pursuit being successfull or leading to anything 'good'. Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs
Why don't you order service installed at your house from them? Then you'd know exactly what they are doing. Marlon K. Schafer wrote: Make DAMN sure you know what they are doing and with what frequencies first though. Nothing worse than making that kind of false accusation. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs
Travis, What's the illegality? Are they using 5150 - 5250 (indoor use only)? Are they exceeding + 30 dBm EIRP on either the AP or the SM? jack Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, Curious to everyone's thoughts about a regional WISP installing illegal CPE units? They are using Last Mile Gear 120degree Canopy 120 degree sectors (5.2GHz) and then putting the Canopy 5.2GHz SM in dishes at customer locations. I am talking about thousands of CPE installed this way and doing more every day. This company covers several western states (Idaho, Utah, Nevada, etc.) and also does Dish Network satellite TV installs. Is this OK? What are everyone's thoughts? Travis Microserv -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting Newsletters Downloadable from http://ask-wi.com/newsletters.html Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs
There are two very distinct issues in thos post... One is using a third party antenna, with a radio, that it is not certified with, and installing an uncertified system. Two is running a equipment above allowable EIRPs. As for one, as you have mentioned to me before, installing a StarOS or Mikrotik system, equally is an uncertified system. But we often justify it by understanding that our systems are within limits, and could be made FCC compiant if the expense was taken to go through the process. And technically most of us want that ability, to pick and chose the best antennas for our equipment. And off record, the word is the FCC isn't going to go after WISPs using uncertiufied systems as long as they are operating within FCC EIRP levels. So its hard to fight that one. The best that can be done is use certified systems yourself when you can and support the vendors that sell certified systems. As for two thats where you must draw the line. Installing a dish does not make the 5.2 gear uncertifiable or above FCC limits, if the 5.2 gear drops its power level accordingly. A 28db 2ft dish can be used if they drop their TX to 0 dbm. Or even neg numbers. Trango allows this, Does Canopy? Are they actually running the CPEs or APs above EIRP limits, without turning their power down to the appropriate level? If you can prove that they are over powering, then you ahve a case and should report to the FCC. And there is one reason for that. If they over power in your area, they will most likely force you to over power to stay above them, and the vicious circle starts. If they are in fact broadcasting over the legal limits, the FCC will inforce policy, from what I understand. But you are going to have to deliver proof to them that it is happening. If the FCC has strong reason to believe that they are running at legal limits, and the WISP does not comply on request, then the FCC can use the non-compliance to FCC certified systems to inforce compliance, if its to hard to prove when the customer turns the power down or back up again to be out or in compliance. I'd argue that you almost have an obligation to the industry to report a company that is heavilly abusing the rules for 1000s of installed systems. It gives WISPs a bad name. But I think we also need to use our own judgement on when a hand needs slapping. For example, if someone is located in the middle of a forrest, and they bump up the EIRP with a high gain YAGI, is it really doing any harm, knowing that the trees absorb most of the extra power, and has no more impact on the environment than a legal system located on the edge of the forest. So my opinion is, if they are doing harm to the RF environment in the communities, due to illegal limits, you should report them. But make sure you've done your home work, so you don't make false accusations. These are all hard questions and the reason is because, no body wants to be the bad guy. The FCC isn't going to shut down an WISP that is providing the only option for Broadband to it's subscribers in an underserved rural area, without good cause. And turning the power down and narrowing the beam width helps prevent interference, not cause it. Just my 2 cents. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: isp-wireless@isp-wireless.com; WISP [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 5:58 PM Subject: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs Hi, Curious to everyone's thoughts about a regional WISP installing illegal CPE units? They are using Last Mile Gear 120degree Canopy 120 degree sectors (5.2GHz) and then putting the Canopy 5.2GHz SM in dishes at customer locations. I am talking about thousands of CPE installed this way and doing more every day. This company covers several western states (Idaho, Utah, Nevada, etc.) and also does Dish Network satellite TV installs. Is this OK? What are everyone's thoughts? Travis Microserv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs
IMO it comes down to if/how they are affecting you and what you want them to do about it? You could persuade or force them to move everything to another freq. which may/may not end up being in your favor. If your trying to get them to give-up and shut the doors...I can't forsee that pursuit being successfull or leading to anything 'good'. Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, Curious to everyone's thoughts about a regional WISP installing illegal CPE units? They are using Last Mile Gear 120degree Canopy 120 degree sectors (5.2GHz) and then putting the Canopy 5.2GHz SM in dishes at customer locations. I am talking about thousands of CPE installed this way and doing more every day. This company covers several western states (Idaho, Utah, Nevada, etc.) and also does Dish Network satellite TV installs. Is this OK? What are everyone's thoughts? Travis Microserv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs
Of course they aren't going to vounteer to shut down. But the FCC will inforce the rules, and shut them down, if they are illegally operating, and causing harm. They just have better things to do than go on wild goose chases, so you have to deliver proof. I don;t know about you, but if the FCC enforcement burough called me and I was illegal, I'd get legal quick. NOt that I'm a tattle tail, or try and be the police. But ifthey are effecting the quality of my network because they are illegal, they need to be set straight. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jon Langeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs IMO it comes down to if/how they are affecting you and what you want them to do about it? You could persuade or force them to move everything to another freq. which may/may not end up being in your favor. If your trying to get them to give-up and shut the doors...I can't forsee that pursuit being successfull or leading to anything 'good'. Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, Curious to everyone's thoughts about a regional WISP installing illegal CPE units? They are using Last Mile Gear 120degree Canopy 120 degree sectors (5.2GHz) and then putting the Canopy 5.2GHz SM in dishes at customer locations. I am talking about thousands of CPE installed this way and doing more every day. This company covers several western states (Idaho, Utah, Nevada, etc.) and also does Dish Network satellite TV installs. Is this OK? What are everyone's thoughts? Travis Microserv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs
Me? I'd make a few calls about it. First to them. It's amazing how often management doesn't know the rules. If that won't fix it, I'd call Motorola. If that doesn't work, I'd call the FCC. The last thing this industry needs is people screwing with the one thing that the FCC has been a stickler on. EIRP is a sacred stone. Mess with it and someone at the commission will be getting pissed. Make DAMN sure you know what they are doing and with what frequencies first though. Nothing worse than making that kind of false accusation. And sometimes having someone else call the company and ask around is a good idea. If you can get me a name and number I'd be happy to make a call for you. As would, I'm sure, anyone on the wispa board. Good luck. marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs Travis, What's the illegality? Are they using 5150 - 5250 (indoor use only)? Are they exceeding + 30 dBm EIRP on either the AP or the SM? jack Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, Curious to everyone's thoughts about a regional WISP installing illegal CPE units? They are using Last Mile Gear 120degree Canopy 120 degree sectors (5.2GHz) and then putting the Canopy 5.2GHz SM in dishes at customer locations. I am talking about thousands of CPE installed this way and doing more every day. This company covers several western states (Idaho, Utah, Nevada, etc.) and also does Dish Network satellite TV installs. Is this OK? What are everyone's thoughts? Travis Microserv -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting Newsletters Downloadable from http://ask-wi.com/newsletters.html Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs
That's what I'm saying. They would likely end up moving to another frequency of which may pose more harm to Travis's current network. Not that he should be scared because Trango kicks Canopy's butt right?! :-) Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: Of course they aren't going to vounteer to shut down. But the FCC will inforce the rules, and shut them down, if they are illegally operating, and causing harm. They just have better things to do than go on wild goose chases, so you have to deliver proof. I don;t know about you, but if the FCC enforcement burough called me and I was illegal, I'd get legal quick. NOt that I'm a tattle tail, or try and be the police. But ifthey are effecting the quality of my network because they are illegal, they need to be set straight. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jon Langeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 9:39 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs IMO it comes down to if/how they are affecting you and what you want them to do about it? You could persuade or force them to move everything to another freq. which may/may not end up being in your favor. If your trying to get them to give-up and shut the doors...I can't forsee that pursuit being successfull or leading to anything 'good'. Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs
Only one warning in that advice. If the FCC takes any interest which they ususally don't (think CB) the first one they will require testing on is you. We had a person running 40 watts and a quick call around found that the FCC likes to make sure the complaintant is also above board. We've been beseiged with competitors who take the philosophy that causing us interference is their business model. I don't like them as much as any of you but we just had a person in Spokane, WA who praised the police, whom they called, for catching a burglar who was in their house. This was said as they were being hauled off to jail for a pot growing operation in the house that was being burglarized. They called Police then they went to jail. Just remember the law is looking for all abusers not just the one you want them to take out. Forbes -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Mon 11/27/2006 9:23 PM To: WISPA General List Cc: Subject: Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs Me? I'd make a few calls about it. First to them. It's amazing how often management doesn't know the rules. If that won't fix it, I'd call Motorola. If that doesn't work, I'd call the FCC. The last thing this industry needs is people screwing with the one thing that the FCC has been a stickler on. EIRP is a sacred stone. Mess with it and someone at the commission will be getting pissed. Make DAMN sure you know what they are doing and with what frequencies first though. Nothing worse than making that kind of false accusation. And sometimes having someone else call the company and ask around is a good idea. If you can get me a name and number I'd be happy to make a call for you. As would, I'm sure, anyone on the wispa board. Good luck. marlon - Original Message - From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] illegal CPE installs Travis, What's the illegality? Are they using 5150 - 5250 (indoor use only)? Are they exceeding + 30 dBm EIRP on either the AP or the SM? jack Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, Curious to everyone's thoughts about a regional WISP installing illegal CPE units? They are using Last Mile Gear 120degree Canopy 120 degree sectors (5.2GHz) and then putting the Canopy 5.2GHz SM in dishes at customer locations. I am talking about thousands of CPE installed this way and doing more every day. This company covers several western states (Idaho, Utah, Nevada, etc.) and also does Dish Network satellite TV installs. Is this OK? What are everyone's thoughts? Travis Microserv -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting Newsletters Downloadable from http://ask-wi.com/newsletters.html Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
