Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law is a correct course of action. Scriv chris cooper wrote: It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off the shelf antennas. So if I buy a board, cards and an antenna what are my obligations to FCC as far as having a certified system in production? Thanks for the education Chris -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
John is 100% accurate. Also, with respect to using your own antenna, even with that new relaxation of the rules, it ONLY applies to manufacturers, NOT operators. What is does is to enable manufacturers to self-certify additional antennas so long as the power is the same or less as the originally certified version AND the beam pattern is fundamentally similar. This rule does NOT permit operators to use whatever antennas they like. As always, I know from 1st hand direct questioning of those FCC staffers who wrote the rule revision. This is not hearsay, my assumption or my interpretation. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law is a correct course of action. Scriv chris cooper wrote: It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off the shelf antennas. So if I buy a board, cards and an antenna what are my obligations to FCC as far as having a certified system in production? Thanks for the education Chris -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Take note that there are different legalities based on wether you are manufacturering/selling a product versus using it for your own use on your property. And if its your customers propery versus yours. The only other advice that I have, is that if you are providing uncertified solutions, you better be darn sure it is a solution that would comply if the steps were taken, and you were ever asked to certify it. For example, If you installed 1000 uncertified systems that were jsut about the same, the only thing you'd need to do to correct the problem, is pay someone to certify the combination of products, for $10,000.Much more cost effective than pulling all your gear down and loosing customers. That was one of the scares with Mikrotik last month, when nobody would assume Routerboards would not be uncertifiable, but with a 48V PS, its uncertain if it would be able to. Hopefully, they are working to verify and fix the issue. There is a lot more flexibilty now, which allows us to use functonal equivellents, but someone is responsible for making that determination. Its the manufacturer, or the integrater claiming to be the manufacturer for the OEM product that is taking on the liabilty. One of the reasons I chose Trango for 95% of my network, is I started the business with the goal for eventual sale, and didn't want to take the liabilty of not having a legal system. Because I am not a attorney, I wont say more than that on this topic. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, IncIntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: chris cooper To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:05 PM Subject: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off the shelf antennas. So if I buy a board, cards and an antenna what are my obligations to FCC as far as having a certified system in production? Thanks for the education Chris -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law is a correct course of action. Scriv chris cooper wrote: It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off the shelf antennas. So if I buy a board, cards and an antenna what are my obligations to FCC as far as having a certified system in production? Thanks for the education Chris -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting Newsletters Downloadable from http://ask-wi.com/newsletters.html Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Patrick, Not exactly. What you said is mostly true, and to the letter of the original text, but there are added flexibilties. It doesn't need to be the antenna that the manufacturer actually sells. For example, if the manufacturer OEMed a MTI antenna for certification, operators can now use the functional MTI antenna bought direct. Also in face to face meetings, even though not the written text, we asked if operators could take responsibilty for determining the functional equivellent. They responded that the reason the Manufacturers were required to be the one, is that there had to be someone to take responsibilty, where it was inforcable to comply. It was a grey area, but FCC staff stated that if the operator took responsibility, it could be feasible that it was allowed for the Operator to make the substitution. The arguement is as integrators we have the abilty to get certifications just like Manufacturers. So really the letter of the law was that who ever got the gear certified originally, would ahve the abilty to make the modifications of whats considered functional equivellent. What this meant was that if an Operator isntalled an uncertifed network, but used gear that could be certified, meaning making qualified decisions, it was within the Operators power to correct the violation, by getting the components certified. Although the politically correct method would be to certify the gear combination a head of time. But my point is its not just the manufacturer that has the master decission. With that said, its rare that a operator would want to go through the cost of certification, when the manufacturer already did, if the manufacturer now also had cost effective ways to make decissions on what gear is acceptable to use under the certification, and manufacturers had fair pricing on antenna gear, to take away the motive for someone to self certify. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 3:29 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. John is 100% accurate. Also, with respect to using your own antenna, even with that new relaxation of the rules, it ONLY applies to manufacturers, NOT operators. What is does is to enable manufacturers to self-certify additional antennas so long as the power is the same or less as the originally certified version AND the beam pattern is fundamentally similar. This rule does NOT permit operators to use whatever antennas they like. As always, I know from 1st hand direct questioning of those FCC staffers who wrote the rule revision. This is not hearsay, my assumption or my interpretation. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future
RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
For sure. It has nothing to do with how the antenna is sold or sourced. What is clear however is that as operators, you do not have the choice. Such flexibility is ONLY given to the manufacturers. I was in the room where Marlon pressed them on this point hard and they would not bend. For the FCC, they still refused to open what they see as a Pandora's Box in terms of letting operators make their own choices in terms of antennas. We all were a bit surprised by this, though I understand their issue. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. Patrick, Not exactly. What you said is mostly true, and to the letter of the original text, but there are added flexibilties. It doesn't need to be the antenna that the manufacturer actually sells. For example, if the manufacturer OEMed a MTI antenna for certification, operators can now use the functional MTI antenna bought direct. Also in face to face meetings, even though not the written text, we asked if operators could take responsibilty for determining the functional equivellent. They responded that the reason the Manufacturers were required to be the one, is that there had to be someone to take responsibilty, where it was inforcable to comply. It was a grey area, but FCC staff stated that if the operator took responsibility, it could be feasible that it was allowed for the Operator to make the substitution. The arguement is as integrators we have the abilty to get certifications just like Manufacturers. So really the letter of the law was that who ever got the gear certified originally, would ahve the abilty to make the modifications of whats considered functional equivellent. What this meant was that if an Operator isntalled an uncertifed network, but used gear that could be certified, meaning making qualified decisions, it was within the Operators power to correct the violation, by getting the components certified. Although the politically correct method would be to certify the gear combination a head of time. But my point is its not just the manufacturer that has the master decission. With that said, its rare that a operator would want to go through the cost of certification, when the manufacturer already did, if the manufacturer now also had cost effective ways to make decissions on what gear is acceptable to use under the certification, and manufacturers had fair pricing on antenna gear, to take away the motive for someone to self certify. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 3:29 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. John is 100% accurate. Also, with respect to using your own antenna, even with that new relaxation of the rules, it ONLY applies to manufacturers, NOT operators. What is does is to enable manufacturers to self-certify additional antennas so long as the power is the same or less as the originally certified version AND the beam pattern is fundamentally similar. This rule does NOT permit operators to use whatever antennas they like. As always, I know from 1st hand direct questioning of those FCC staffers who wrote the rule revision. This is not hearsay, my assumption or my interpretation. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 11:31 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. Scriv Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law is a correct course of action. Scriv chris cooper wrote: It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off the shelf antennas. So if I buy a board, cards and an antenna what are my obligations to FCC as far as having a certified system in production? Thanks for the education Chris -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
We have a pretty vigorous approved third party antenna list, but I believe we are somewhat of the exception in terms of this facility. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. Scriv Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law is a correct course of action. Scriv chris cooper wrote: It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off the shelf antennas. So if I buy a board, cards and an antenna what are my obligations to FCC as far as having a certified system in production? Thanks for the education Chris -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
No need to push manufactures when you can just not buy their product. Why would you want to take the business risk of not buying a certified radio? I mean Trango sells radios plenty cheap and they're certified. Canopy is also cheap and also certified. -Matt John Scrivner wrote: This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. Scriv Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law is a correct course of action. Scriv chris cooper wrote: It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off the shelf antennas. So if I buy a board, cards and an antenna what are my obligations to FCC as far as having a certified system in production? Thanks for the education Chris -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
All, $0.02: A while back there was a discussion (The FCC even included it in the latest dialog about part 15, I think) about the possibility of a person becoming certified to work with unlicensed equipment. If this afforded a person a real advantage (say being able to mix and match components as long as you do the math and take measurements, etc) why wasn't it pursued? *Marlon,* I think you commented about this a few months back... I would jump at the chance of becoming an Unlicensed Tech. and having freedom to build exactly what I need. As far as the Antenna/radio-roll-your-own thing: doesn't the antenna still have to appear in the manual issued by the manufacturer of the radio as an acceptable replacement. I've been told by some WISPS that have spoken with the FCC that it does... Jason Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law is a correct course of action. Scriv chris cooper wrote: It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off the shelf antennas. So if I buy a board, cards and an antenna what are my obligations to FCC as far as having a certified system in production? Thanks for the education Chris -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Patrick, From my perspective, Alvarion HAS set a pretty high standard in terms of marketing certified equipment. Can you research the certification labs that Alvarion has used and give us the names of those labs so that others will know where to go for reliable certification services? Thanks, jack Patrick Leary wrote: We have a pretty vigorous approved third party antenna list, but I believe we are somewhat of the exception in terms of this facility. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. Scriv Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law is a correct course of action. Scriv chris cooper wrote: It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off the shelf antennas. So if I buy a board, cards and an antenna what are my obligations to FCC as far as having a certified system in production? Thanks for the education Chris -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting Newsletters Downloadable from http://ask-wi.com/newsletters.html Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Matt, I agree with John's suggestion that we need to push manufacturers to certify. We could request that manufacturers indicate the certification status of their equipment on their websites, their spec sheets, and their advertising material. We could even create the artwork and make available to the industry a Part 15 FCC-Certified Equipment logo at no charge. You ask - Why would we need to push manufacturers when a WISP could just NOT buy a non-certified product? Because half of the WISPs out there don't even realize that certification is required by law. WISPA can perform a valuable public service by simply providing knowledge and education for the WISP community and also by facilitating the means for manufacturers to get the certification accomplished (publishing the list of certification labs). The alternative is for each of us to completely ignore the issue, which is the same as us saying (pick your favorite, vote for all the apply) 1. Laws are made to be broken 2. Laws are made to be ignored 2. Laws are for other people, not for me 3. Ignorance of the law is my excuse for breaking the law 4. If nobody enforces it, it's not a law 5. Jack, Joe, John, Jim, James, and Jean aren't following the law so why should I 6. Add your own favorite excuse here. Our role is not enforcement, but education and leadership. By our actions, we can benefit WISPs, manufacturers, and WISP customers. By playing this role responsibly, our industry gains not just greater freedom from interference but greater credibility with the public, the Congress, the news media, and the FCC. jack Matt Liotta wrote: No need to push manufactures when you can just not buy their product. Why would you want to take the business risk of not buying a certified radio? I mean Trango sells radios plenty cheap and they're certified. Canopy is also cheap and also certified. -Matt John Scrivner wrote: This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. Scriv Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to
RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
That's easy. From the FCC site: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearchResult.cfm And here is the search location: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfm Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. Patrick, From my perspective, Alvarion HAS set a pretty high standard in terms of marketing certified equipment. Can you research the certification labs that Alvarion has used and give us the names of those labs so that others will know where to go for reliable certification services? Thanks, jack Patrick Leary wrote: We have a pretty vigorous approved third party antenna list, but I believe we are somewhat of the exception in terms of this facility. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. Scriv Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law is a correct course of action. Scriv chris cooper wrote: It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off the shelf antennas. So if I buy a board, cards and an antenna what are my obligations to FCC as far as having a certified system in production? Thanks for the education Chris -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993
RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Disregard the first link. Instead, just type U.S. in the country field and hit enter within the search page. You will pull up 149 labs. WISPA should not re-create the wheel. The FCC site has a wealth of great info and WISPA should simply link to it. It will also get WISPs in the habit of going to the FCC site (and using the WISPA site as another resource for them. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:37 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. That's easy. From the FCC site: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearchResult.cfm And here is the search location: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfm Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. Patrick, From my perspective, Alvarion HAS set a pretty high standard in terms of marketing certified equipment. Can you research the certification labs that Alvarion has used and give us the names of those labs so that others will know where to go for reliable certification services? Thanks, jack Patrick Leary wrote: We have a pretty vigorous approved third party antenna list, but I believe we are somewhat of the exception in terms of this facility. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. Scriv Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Jack Unger wrote: You ask - Why would we need to push manufacturers when a WISP could just NOT buy a non-certified product? Because half of the WISPs out there don't even realize that certification is required by law. WISPA can perform a valuable public service by simply providing knowledge and education for the WISP community and also by facilitating the means for manufacturers to get the certification accomplished (publishing the list of certification labs). First of all, there is no way our small group is going to influence manufactures of non-certified gear. We already don't buy from those manufactures, so it is not impacting their sales. Second, if WISPs don't know that certification is a requirement then why would certified gear appeal to them? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Patrick - Thank you. Patrick Leary wrote: That's easy. From the FCC site: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearchResult.cfm The above link didn't work for me. And here is the search location: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfm This link is great! I put CA (California) and Accredited into the search criteria and the FCC site returned 30 hits for certification labs in CA. Fantastic! I would propose that WISPA include this FCC link on the new website. jack Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. Patrick, From my perspective, Alvarion HAS set a pretty high standard in terms of marketing certified equipment. Can you research the certification labs that Alvarion has used and give us the names of those labs so that others will know where to go for reliable certification services? Thanks, jack Patrick Leary wrote: We have a pretty vigorous approved third party antenna list, but I believe we are somewhat of the exception in terms of this facility. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. Scriv Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law is a correct course of action. Scriv chris cooper wrote: It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Matt, My response to your questions are inline, below. jack Matt Liotta wrote: Jack Unger wrote: You ask - Why would we need to push manufacturers when a WISP could just NOT buy a non-certified product? Because half of the WISPs out there don't even realize that certification is required by law. WISPA can perform a valuable public service by simply providing knowledge and education for the WISP community and also by facilitating the means for manufacturers to get the certification accomplished (publishing the list of certification labs). First of all, there is no way our small group is going to influence manufactures of non-certified gear. We already don't buy from those manufactures, so it is not impacting their sales. First, our small group can certainly influence manufacturers. The voice of an industry trade organization (which is what we are) carries a lot of weight if we simply decide to use that voice to speak out. Only if we say nothing, will our voice carry no weight. In that case, we might as well cease to exist. Second, I'd venture a guess that many WISPA members DO sometimes buy non-certified equipment. We can't make a blanket statement that all WISPA members buy only certified equipment. Even if it were true that all WISPA members bought only certified equipment (and I'll bet you a steak dinner that it's not true) what about all the other WISPs and WISP-industry providers who are on our mailing lists and who are influenced by what we say and do? Is it WISPA's job to stand up for what's legal and what's right or should WISPA just say Forget it, we don't care, it's not our job, and we're too busy. Article IV of the WISPA Code of Ethics says: ARTICLE IV We will strive to broaden public understanding and enhance public regard and confidence in our Industry Educating our industry and the public is certainly in keeping with our Charter. Second, if WISPs don't know that certification is a requirement then why would certified gear appeal to them? I submit that it's part of our job to educate the industry. If WISPs don't know that certification is a requirement, then IT'S OUR JOB to help them learn. Once they know the laws of the industry that they are joining then they will want to buy certified equipment. By the way, who would start a business in an industry and then not want to know the laws that regulate that industry? How far would I get (and how smart would I be) if I opened a new restaurant in your neighborhood but I didn't stop long enough to learn about the sanitation laws in your city? Would you feel confident bringing your new girlfriend to my restaurant on Friday night? jack -Matt -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting Newsletters Downloadable from http://ask-wi.com/newsletters.html Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
I was in the room where Marlon pressed them on this point hard and they would not bend. http://www.rapiddsl.net/latest_news/FccVisitOct2004.htm Thats right, you were there Patrick. (PS. Your wherever Wireless goes, DSL follows speach rocked!) And you are right, Marlon was pressing hard, and they were not bending on giving operator's control (the pandora's box) in most of the meeting. And the original intent was to make it easier and more cost effective for manufacturers to add complete product lines under their existing certifications. But towards the end, I felt a little bend. The relevant part is why they didn't want to bend. What would make it a Pandora's box? It was accountabilty and the ease of breaking the rules. Its the reason they also refused to bend on the unique connector rule. (Technically, which would make every N connector based radio an uncertifiable system, if they lived to the letter of their rules.). Where it was getting grey, is questions were asked like, what if What makes it a grey area are things like, What is the definition of Manufacturer ? Sure its clear that Alvarion is the Manufacturer of a BH40 and holds the certification of that radio platform, and the responsible party, and Alvarion is appropriate to decide what is and isn't and equivellent product to meet certification under its certification. I don't deny that. But who is the manufacturer of an uncertified system? Atheros? WRAP? The Operator? Who is responsible to certify the system? Its not spare parts manufacturers. The line of who is a manufacturer, who is a provider, and who is a reseller is getting blurred. And what qualifies as a method of a Manufacturer giving approval of what's certifyable? If an operator calls a Manufacturer and asks is this PacWireless dish of the same power or less as the originally certified version AND the beam pattern is fundamentally similar, and they say yes, is the operator free to proceed? Who is the authoritary person from the manufacturer able to do so? And what proof needs to be given that such permission was granted? And if you violate, what are the penalties if you comply after the fact? Details were left out. It all boils down to someone is going to be held responsible, when output of a system violates allowable specfications. And the way the rule is written, they have the abilty to hold people accountable. But the intent was not to prevent innovation by responsible WISPs. The general census was, which will never be found in print, was if its in legal limits, the FCC police aint comming to knock on your door. But the second someone complains, and you weren't within specification, they were comming after you. What I will say, is I appreciate Alvarions effort to certify a variety of antennas and make available list of certified antenna lines for their products, which I beleive they have, so WISPs that use the Product don't have to worry about certification and compliance issues. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 4:25 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. For sure. It has nothing to do with how the antenna is sold or sourced. What is clear however is that as operators, you do not have the choice. Such flexibility is ONLY given to the manufacturers. I was in the room where Marlon pressed them on this point hard and they would not bend. For the FCC, they still refused to open what they see as a Pandora's Box in terms of letting operators make their own choices in terms of antennas. We all were a bit surprised by this, though I understand their issue. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. Patrick, Not exactly. What you said is mostly true, and to the letter of the original text, but there are added flexibilties. It doesn't need to be the antenna that the manufacturer actually sells. For example, if the manufacturer OEMed a MTI antenna for certification, operators can now use the functional MTI antenna bought direct. Also in face to face meetings, even though not the written text, we asked if operators could take responsibilty for determining the functional equivellent. They responded that the reason the Manufacturers were required to be the one, is that there had to be someone to take responsibilty, where it was inforcable to comply. It was a grey area, but FCC staff stated that if the operator took responsibility, it could be feasible that it was allowed for the Operator to make the substitution. The arguement is as integrators we have the abilty
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Jack Unger wrote: First, our small group can certainly influence manufacturers. The voice of an industry trade organization (which is what we are) carries a lot of weight if we simply decide to use that voice to speak out. Only if we say nothing, will our voice carry no weight. In that case, we might as well cease to exist. We can influence manufacturers by explaining what we want them to produce and if they produce it we will buy it. Take for example the whole thread on MTU size, which seemed to get at least one manufacture to take notice. That however is because they could actually lose sales if they don't pay attention to our needs. I personally don't see any benefit provided by current non-certified gear, so its not like I will start buying the gear if it was certified. Therefore, what incentive would such a manufacture have knowing my position? I guess a better question is what benefit does non-certified gear have over certified gear? I personally don't see the benefit, so why waste time trying to convince the manufacture to certify it? Second, I'd venture a guess that many WISPA members DO sometimes buy non-certified equipment. We can't make a blanket statement that all WISPA members buy only certified equipment. Even if it were true that all WISPA members bought only certified equipment (and I'll bet you a steak dinner that it's not true) what about all the other WISPs and WISP-industry providers who are on our mailing lists and who are influenced by what we say and do? Is it WISPA's job to stand up for what's legal and what's right or should WISPA just say Forget it, we don't care, it's not our job, and we're too busy. I am all for standing up for what is legal, but what does that mean in practical terms for WISPA? I submit that it's part of our job to educate the industry. If WISPs don't know that certification is a requirement, then IT'S OUR JOB to help them learn. Once they know the laws of the industry that they are joining then they will want to buy certified equipment. Why is it our job? By the way, who would start a business in an industry and then not want to know the laws that regulate that industry? How far would I get (and how smart would I be) if I opened a new restaurant in your neighborhood but I didn't stop long enough to learn about the sanitation laws in your city? Would you feel confident bringing your new girlfriend to my restaurant on Friday night? Those are interesting questions that don't seem to apply to my position. A more analogical question would be should the other restaurants help you learn what you are unwilling to do on your own? How long will a business survive with such an attitude? Why not just wait for them to die on their own? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Because its certified system, not certified radio. Many of the manufacturers do not provide antennas that are always available. Just this month, Trangos DSS dishes were not available, it was buy your own, or don't earn revenue for a month. Or use a Andrews 3 ft dish with better RF characteristics for avoiding interference with/to others, apposed to the inconsistent certified brand that have higher wind load and higher price. Sometimes the more responsible thing to do is to use the better choice, even if uncertified. Because times change quick, and manufactuers do not always keep up. If more manufacturers tested common antennas more quickly, this problem/thread would not exist. But why should the manufacturer eat the cost to test antenna manufacturer's products, why not antenna manufacturers test with the radios? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 5:02 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. No need to push manufactures when you can just not buy their product. Why would you want to take the business risk of not buying a certified radio? I mean Trango sells radios plenty cheap and they're certified. Canopy is also cheap and also certified. -Matt John Scrivner wrote: This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. Scriv Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law is a correct course of action. Scriv chris cooper wrote: It sounds like several of you here build your own radios and use off the shelf antennas. So if I buy a board, cards and an antenna what are my obligations to FCC as far as having a certified system in production? Thanks for the education Chris -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Jack, One thing that is undisputable, is that Manufacturers have been given the power to make their list of equivellent products that would be certified and now its super cheap for them to do it with the relaxed rules. I agree, the best method to solve this problem is to encourage our manufacturers to certiy more antennas, or authorize their use as acceptible equivellent replacements. I also believe educating the public on the best way to certify is a great idea, and one that has been around for a few years but not yet followed through on. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 5:35 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. Matt, I agree with John's suggestion that we need to push manufacturers to certify. We could request that manufacturers indicate the certification status of their equipment on their websites, their spec sheets, and their advertising material. We could even create the artwork and make available to the industry a Part 15 FCC-Certified Equipment logo at no charge. You ask - Why would we need to push manufacturers when a WISP could just NOT buy a non-certified product? Because half of the WISPs out there don't even realize that certification is required by law. WISPA can perform a valuable public service by simply providing knowledge and education for the WISP community and also by facilitating the means for manufacturers to get the certification accomplished (publishing the list of certification labs). The alternative is for each of us to completely ignore the issue, which is the same as us saying (pick your favorite, vote for all the apply) 1. Laws are made to be broken 2. Laws are made to be ignored 2. Laws are for other people, not for me 3. Ignorance of the law is my excuse for breaking the law 4. If nobody enforces it, it's not a law 5. Jack, Joe, John, Jim, James, and Jean aren't following the law so why should I 6. Add your own favorite excuse here. Our role is not enforcement, but education and leadership. By our actions, we can benefit WISPs, manufacturers, and WISP customers. By playing this role responsibly, our industry gains not just greater freedom from interference but greater credibility with the public, the Congress, the news media, and the FCC. jack Matt Liotta wrote: No need to push manufactures when you can just not buy their product. Why would you want to take the business risk of not buying a certified radio? I mean Trango sells radios plenty cheap and they're certified. Canopy is also cheap and also certified. -Matt John Scrivner wrote: This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. Scriv Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Patrick, Man, you coughed those URLs up pretty fast. Thanks for your participation in this list, you always have something educational, and you share your knowledge openly. Glsd you decided to come back. Ron Wallace Hahnron, Inc. 220 S. Jackson Dt. Addison, MI 49220 Phone: (517)547-8410 Mobile: (517)605-4542 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]-Original Message-From: Patrick Leary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 05:37 PMTo: ''WISPA General List''Subject: RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios..That's easy. From the FCC site:https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearchResult.cfmAnd here is the search location:https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfmPatrick LearyAVP MarketingAlvarion, Inc.o: 650.314.2628c: 760.580.0080Vonage: 650.641.1243-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] OnBehalf Of Jack UngerSent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:35 PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..Patrick, From my perspective, Alvarion HAS set a pretty high standard in terms of marketing certified equipment. Can you research the certification labs that Alvarion has used and give us the names of those labs so that others will know where to go for reliable certification services?Thanks, jackPatrick Leary wrote: We have a pretty vigorous approved third party antenna list, but I believe we are somewhat of the exception in terms of this facility. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. ScrivJack Unger wrote: John,Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role.We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with.OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jackJohn Scrivner wrote:The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means "anything goes". The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that "anything goes" is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature.Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn.I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions. Something tells me this industry will not have to wait that long. Of course the decision to follow the rules is inevitably up to each person. I would like to think we all will be compliant in the future but this is an unrealistic goal I am sure if manufacturers do not take a leadership role in this effort. WISPA stops short of demanding that members do anything but I will say, as President of WISPA, we should all try to follow the law regarding this industry. No industry association could expect to have impact in policy and legislative efforts if they took the stand that shirking the law
RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Ron, I did not know them offhand, but I have faith both in the wealth of info on the FCCs site and in the ability of a well-phrased Google search to find the right page! Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ron Wallace Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 4:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. Patrick, Man, you coughed those URLs up pretty fast. Thanks for your participation in this list, you always have something educational, and you share your knowledge openly. Glsd you decided to come back. Ron Wallace Hahnron, Inc. 220 S. Jackson Dt. Addison, MI 49220 Phone: (517)547-8410 Mobile: (517)605-4542 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Patrick Leary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 05:37 PM To: ''WISPA General List'' Subject: RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. That's easy. From the FCC site: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearchResult.cfm And here is the search location: https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/oet/cf/eas/reports/TestFirmSearch.cfm Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 2:35 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. Patrick, From my perspective, Alvarion HAS set a pretty high standard in terms of marketing certified equipment. Can you research the certification labs that Alvarion has used and give us the names of those labs so that others will know where to go for reliable certification services? Thanks, jack Patrick Leary wrote: We have a pretty vigorous approved third party antenna list, but I believe we are somewhat of the exception in terms of this facility. Patrick Leary AVP Marketing Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. This sounds like a good idea. I am sure we could add a link to a listing of certification labs. We also need to push manufacturers to certify. Without some pressure from us the certification will just look like more cost with little to gain to manufacturers. Pressure from customers would make this more of a requirement than what it seems to be now. If we all insist on certs then the overall cost for this would be negligible. Scriv Jack Unger wrote: John, Should WISPA consider publishing on our website a list of certification labs? It seems that our industry needs someone to step up and take on a leadership role and WISPA seems (to me anyway) to be the perfect organization to perform this role. We could start by simply polling our list members to see which labs anyone has used and been satisfied with. OK, speak up guys (and gals). What lab or labs have you researched or used? jack John Scrivner wrote: The rules state that any radio / antenna combination has to either be a certified system or that a substitute antenna used would have to meet the same specs as one used for certification in a system. Many think that this means anything goes. The truth is that there are almost certainly a good bit of installed systems which would not pass FCC enforcement inspection. Many believe that following maximum EIRP rules is the only requirement. This is not so. It is a good practice if you are not following the rules but that does not mean it is legal. Another common belief is that anything goes is the rule of thumb due to the general lack of enforcement in unlicensed bands. This is unfortunate and further illustrates the need for our industry to mature. Part of this maturity process should start by operators demanding to see FCC certifications for the systems they buy. It is tough for operators to remain compliant when so few systems are certified. Another step should be that manufacturers certify their systems with commonly used antenna / radio configurations every time they release a product. Finally, distributors need to demand that all systems they sell meet certification requirements. The fact is that certification is not terribly costly or complicated and should be a step taken by all manufacturers and eventually all of us. If anyone here represents manufacturers who certify all their systems then now would be a good time to toot your horn. I believe the day will likely come that the FCC will inspect WISP systems. It took them about 20 years to start cracking down on the cable television industry for signal leakage and other infractions
Re: [WISPA] roll your own radios..
Patrick, You are right on target, I agree with everything that you have just said. I would like to see an independent body that could provide WISP technician certification that the FCC could accept Great Idea. Let me ask you this: would you willingly warranty and support your end user's end-to-end experience across your network from the desktops to the Internet while also permitting the user to implement whatever router, switch, etc. he/she wanted? No, which is why I fully understand your view as manufacturer. But you are making the assumption that it is the manufacturer warranteeing and supporting the product. Just because Alvarion does a good job at it, doesn't mean it applies to all. Many WISPs do not rely on the support from their manufacturers, they instead decide to educate themselves, and take control of their own destiny, and need to have the abilty and freedom to support their clientel optimally. If I am the one doing the support, I need some control. Way to many times a WISP is held back in progress waiting and waiting on their manufacturers that do not come through or do not act with the same time table and priority as the WISP has done, and it has to do with who has the heavy cash invested that is getting wasted. When its the WISP's money at risk, and not the manufacturers, the manufacturer doesn't seem to rush. The day my choice of manufacturers outperform my time tables and beats me to the solution, I'll give in to them and follow suit to the manufacturer's suggested recommendations.FCC certification is important, but so is success, and this is a time to market industry. I have nothing but respect for the FCC, FCC power rules, and the vendors and providers that follow them, but I do not have a lot of respect for a sticker or for people that hold back an eager industry or waste my money. That comment was not directed at any specific manufacturer or regulating body. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 7:06 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] roll your own radios.. Hi Tom, I remember our nice little seafood feast afterward too (is George on the WISPA list also?). As I recall, the conversation revolved around certified gear. The rules change they made did not include or cover uncertified systems, because I would assume, by definition, they do not exist as part of the legal process. In other words, the FCC was not trying to make life of law breakers even easier. They were trying to improve the flexibility so manufacturers could be more responsive to customer needs by getting more antenna choices included within the manufacturers master system certification. Basically, all they did was relax a little the existing permissive change rules. I believe the FCC was reluctant to give operators carte blanche, because it would be a strain on resources to track accountability and enforcement. Reigning in a few manufacturers who have major incentive to follow the rules is a lot different than trying to keep track of thousands of WISPs, many already flying under the radar (not filing form 477, etc.) AND many of whom who have already shown a massive propensity to ignore -- willfully or ignorantly -- the rules as they are. Use whatever clichés you want -- asking the fox to guard the hen house, giving the inmates the keys to the asylum,...they all apply. I think you have to acknowledge that the abuse is rampant and one of the only reasons it is less rampant now is that so many systems come integrated with antennas, PoE, and high power (internal integrated amps). From the vendors standpoint, I understand the FCC position and I also understand the quality (and legal) WISPs position. I would like to see an independent body that could provide WISP technician certification that the FCC could accept (and hold accountable), much like a PE needs to sign off on certain design documents in many mechanical fields. I envisioned such a thing a few years ago, using the BICSII RCDD as the model. Anyway, also a vendor I am relieved too that operators cannot make their own choices in the sense of the nightmare this would create for both system performance (e.g. MAJOR tech support costs and head aches) and warranty issues. You cannot fathom the massive costs we'd incur as every WISP making its own antenna choice came to us about performance, capacity, and coverage issues for which the antenna plays such a key role. How could we answer questions? How could we assert performance specs? How could we predict coverage and capacity? How could we advise about co-location issues? Etc. ad nauseum. Let me ask you this: would you willingly warranty and support your end user's end-to-end experience across your network from the desktops to the Internet while also permitting the user to implement whatever router, switch, etc
