Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment
Amen brother Tom! You have seen the light! The whole mesh node bottleneck problem goes away if you have $90 millimeter-wave radios acting as gigabit backhaul connections from node to node. That is just one billion dollar application of this technology. Don't think this is pie in the sky either. Millimeter-wave radios can be built using cheap CMOS technology instead of the current SiGe. It is like the difference between building out of rust instead of diamonds. Ken started talking up low-cost gigabit radios a while back and few listened then. I thought he had gotten hold of some bad drugs till I met the millimeter-wave manufacturers that Ken hooked me up with at the IWPC. I saw the light then. I thought the manufacturers saw the light too when I talked about the day of millions of cheap millimeter wave radio modules being used everywhere to provide multi-gigabit connectivity at low cost. Sadly they thought I had gotten hold of bad drugs I think. All but one guy from Intel. He has gone way underground now though. I signed a NDA with him so I cannot say much beyond this. Trust me though when I say that low-cost GigE radios can and will be built someday. I just hope it happens before we all fall behind the technology curve. Cable and DSL will be selling 10 megs for $20 per month in a year. Can you all compete? I certainly wish someone would wise up and start churning out those low-cost dumb millimeter-wave modules. Give us a low-cost mini-pci millimeter-wave radio module and we will change the world forever. Scriv Tom DeReggi wrote: I'm a big fan of the potential of GB fiber. But I disagree with your comment. There is a small percentage of jobs that are worth paying the $40K, and thats where the vendor makes his sale, today. But that mentality is holding the industry back. They can make it cheaper and sell it cheaper if they wanted to. And quite frankly I can care less about the 1% of the market that they fit the mold to. I care about the other 99% of the market, that would allow WISPS to compete and beat cable and DSL companies to all Americans. GB is not destined for just a fiber carriers temporary last mile connection. IT has the potential to be the Fiber replacement altogeather. Wireless manufacturers that do not see this are blind as a bat. There product should be priced to sell for ANY application. Mark my words that GB wireless will not stay at the price its at today for long. If it does, new vendors will surface to replace the vendors that are slow to meet the market demand, which is GB everywhere. Thats not going to happen at $40K a link. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Mario Pommier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment Tom, $40K is a lot, true. But here's what I've heard from fiber providers in my area: in rural areas and in existing developments it's very expensive to dig, trench, pull cover, and pay all the other fees fiber providers have. In these cases, Gbit wireless is a point to point link for the last mile. I think that's where the economies of the wireless fiber solution begin to appeal to them. Mario Tom DeReggi wrote: The second we get 70-80Ghz down under $15,000, it will start to get interesting. I've ran into very few places that Fiber can't be run less than 1/2 mile cheaper than buying GB wireless. The only real sale strategy for GB at its existing cost, is Speed of Install. For those who can't afford the 3-6 months to organize getting their fiber pulled. Now the second you can Span over 3 mile reliably, which 70-80Ghz can do, it gets more exciting. But at $40 grand, thats a tough sale, in Tier1 markets. At $500 a month for fiber, thats a 6 year ROI on the GB wireless gear. The advantage of Pencil Beam GB products is that a lot of links can be simultaneously deployed in an area. Making it so expensive takes away the abilty to use the technology to its potential, and used for the rare backhaul link. GB wireless should be being used for mass deployment of PTP in Urban America. For that, it needs a price point under $10 grand, in my mind. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment Licensed 70 to 80 GHz actually has less oxygen absorption of the signal than 60 GHz (by several orders of magnitude). If you are providing a Service Level Agreement with 5 - 9's or better % uptime then you should stick with a licensed product IMO. As Matt states below, both companies offer a licensed product. Depending on the rainfall annually where you are deploying you may get nearly the same uptime in 60
Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment
The second we get 70-80Ghz down under $15,000, it will start to get interesting. I've ran into very few places that Fiber can't be run less than 1/2 mile cheaper than buying GB wireless. The only real sale strategy for GB at its existing cost, is Speed of Install. For those who can't afford the 3-6 months to organize getting their fiber pulled. Now the second you can Span over 3 mile reliably, which 70-80Ghz can do, it gets more exciting. But at $40 grand, thats a tough sale, in Tier1 markets. At $500 a month for fiber, thats a 6 year ROI on the GB wireless gear. The advantage of Pencil Beam GB products is that a lot of links can be simultaneously deployed in an area. Making it so expensive takes away the abilty to use the technology to its potential, and used for the rare backhaul link. GB wireless should be being used for mass deployment of PTP in Urban America. For that, it needs a price point under $10 grand, in my mind. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment Licensed 70 to 80 GHz actually has less oxygen absorption of the signal than 60 GHz (by several orders of magnitude). If you are providing a Service Level Agreement with 5 - 9's or better % uptime then you should stick with a licensed product IMO. As Matt states below, both companies offer a licensed product. Depending on the rainfall annually where you are deploying you may get nearly the same uptime in 60 GHz, especially since it is just 0.4 miles. I would research before making a choice though if uptime requirements are strict. Remember to make sure you research your connection into the network also. Your point of demarcation will need to be identified. In many cases it is a port from the switch that you would provide. Make sure you select a switch compatible with the radio product you launch. If they provide the switch demarc point then make sure it is on the list of tested and known good hardware for connecting to the link you setup. Before quoting the product make sure you remember things like back-up power, downlead selection, surge and lightning suppression, stand-by spare radios for replacement, etc. Ask to see the software management interfaces for the radios being considered. If you buy radios that work but you cannot diagnose what is wrong when they break then you have a problem. It is not like you will have a 60 to 90 GHz signal meter or spectrum analyzer anytime soon so the software management interface is very important. If you do not address these things now then you will be sorry later. If I were you I would at least get a quote or two from fiber construction companies to see if a fiber could be built for same or less money. Depending on the location this might be the more efficient solution. That is the biggest beef I have with the millimeter-wave crowd right now. They try to think in terms of how much money they can squeeze out for each single link sale instead of looking at the mass potential if we could all get our hands on low-cost Gigabit backhaul to all of our towers. Ken and I have been beating this into their brains now for a couple of years. It will sink in someday when they think it is their idea. :-) jk Scriv Matt Liotta wrote: We deploy BrideWave gear and have been happy with it. BridgeWave also has a licensed radio operating in the 80Ghz range. -Matt Mario Pommier wrote: This is a new area of wireless deployment for me: I've been asked to quote for a gigabit wireless link between a radiology department and a nearby hospital (0.4 miles). I'm aware of two options so far, and here's some info I've gathered: -- BridgeWave - 60Ghz; unlicensed; $25,000 complete link; ~$6,000 5-year hardware warranty; 1Gbps -- GigaBeam - 70/80Ghz; licensed; $37,000 complete link (includes $1,000 10-year license); $0.00 5-year hardware warranty; 2.7Gbps release by Dec. 2006. I know Bob Moldashel said he has installed the Bridgewave. Anyone care to comment on any experience you've had with these companies? Thanks a lot. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.7/437 - Release Date: 9/4/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment
To All, This is another excellent comment from our President, thanks John. We can all use this information.Ron Wallace Hahnron, Inc. 220 S. Jackson Dt. Addison, MI 49220 Phone: (517)547-8410 Mobile: (517)605-4542 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message-From: John Scrivner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2006 06:36 PMTo: 'WISPA General List'Subject: Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deploymentLicensed 70 to 80 GHz actually has less oxygen absorption of the signal than 60 GHz (by several orders of magnitude). If you are providing a Service Level Agreement with 5 - 9's or better % uptime then you should stick with a licensed product IMO. As Matt states below, both companies offer a licensed product. Depending on the rainfall annually where you are deploying you may get nearly the same uptime in 60 GHz, especially since it is just 0.4 miles. I would research before making a choice though if uptime requirements are strict.Remember to make sure you research your connection into the network also. Your point of demarcation will need to be identified. In many cases it is a port from the switch that you would provide. Make sure you select a switch compatible with the radio product you launch. If they provide the switch demarc point then make sure it is on the list of tested and known good hardware for connecting to the link you setup.Before quoting the product make sure you remember things like back-up power, downlead selection, surge and lightning suppression, stand-by spare radios for replacement, etc. Ask to see the software management interfaces for the radios being considered. If you buy radios that work but you cannot diagnose what is wrong when they break then you have a problem. It is not like you will have a 60 to 90 GHz signal meter or spectrum analyzer anytime soon so the software management interface is very important. If you do not address these things now then you will be sorry later.If I were you I would at least get a quote or two from fiber construction companies to see if a fiber could be built for same or less money. Depending on the location this might be the more efficient solution.That is the biggest beef I have with the millimeter-wave crowd right now. They try to think in terms of how much money they can squeeze out for each single link sale instead of looking at the mass potential if we could all get our hands on low-cost Gigabit backhaul to all of our towers. Ken and I have been beating this into their brains now for a couple of years. It will sink in someday when they think it is their idea. :-) jkScrivMatt Liotta wrote: We deploy BrideWave gear and have been happy with it. BridgeWave also has a licensed radio operating in the 80Ghz range. -Matt Mario Pommier wrote: This is a new area of wireless deployment for me: I've been asked to quote for a gigabit wireless link between a radiology department and a nearby hospital (0.4 miles). I'm aware of two options so far, and here's some info I've gathered: -- BridgeWave - 60Ghz; unlicensed; $25,000 complete link; ~$6,000 5-year hardware warranty; 1Gbps -- GigaBeam - 70/80Ghz; licensed; $37,000 complete link (includes $1,000 10-year license); $0.00 5-year hardware warranty; 2.7Gbps release by Dec. 2006. I know Bob Moldashel said he has installed the Bridgewave. Anyone care to comment on any experience you've had with these companies? Thanks a lot. Mario-- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment
Title: Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment Mario, I too have a similar opportunity. Mine is for about 1,500 feet. However, the prices that I have received are considerably less than what you have below. - Cliff On 9/5/06 4:37 PM, Mario Pommier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a new area of wireless deployment for me: I've been asked to quote for a gigabit wireless link between a radiology department and a nearby hospital (0.4 miles). I'm aware of two options so far, and here's some info I've gathered: -- BridgeWave - 60Ghz; unlicensed; $25,000 complete link; ~$6,000 5-year hardware warranty; 1Gbps -- GigaBeam - 70/80Ghz; licensed; $37,000 complete link (includes $1,000 10-year license); $0.00 5-year hardware warranty; 2.7Gbps release by Dec. 2006. I know Bob Moldashel said he has installed the Bridgewave. Anyone care to comment on any experience you've had with these companies? Thanks a lot. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment
Good to hear that. Priced similarly? Thanks. Mario Matt Liotta wrote: We deploy BrideWave gear and have been happy with it. BridgeWave also has a licensed radio operating in the 80Ghz range. -Matt Mario Pommier wrote: This is a new area of wireless deployment for me: I've been asked to quote for a gigabit wireless link between a radiology department and a nearby hospital (0.4 miles). I'm aware of two options so far, and here's some info I've gathered: -- BridgeWave - 60Ghz; unlicensed; $25,000 complete link; ~$6,000 5-year hardware warranty; 1Gbps -- GigaBeam - 70/80Ghz; licensed; $37,000 complete link (includes $1,000 10-year license); $0.00 5-year hardware warranty; 2.7Gbps release by Dec. 2006. I know Bob Moldashel said he has installed the Bridgewave. Anyone care to comment on any experience you've had with these companies? Thanks a lot. Mario --- [This e-mail was scanned for viruses by our AntiVirus Protection System] -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment
Mario Your price for the bridgewave is msrp for the unit with parabolic antenna For. 5 miles that would be my choice. Some would say that is not necessary and you could get by with the lower tier unit The price for that system ia avaulable at a much lower number For $25k I will sell itl configure it and test it. :-) Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Cliff Leboeuf [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 16:42:45 To:WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment Mario, I too have a similar opportunity. Mine is for about 1,500 feet. However, the prices that I have received are considerably less than what you have below. - Cliff On 9/5/06 4:37 PM, Mario Pommier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is a new area of wireless deployment for me: I've been asked to quote for a gigabit wireless link between a radiology department and a nearby hospital (0.4 miles). I'm aware of two options so far, and here's some info I've gathered: -- BridgeWave - 60Ghz; unlicensed; $25,000 complete link; ~$6,000 5-year hardware warranty; 1Gbps -- GigaBeam - 70/80Ghz; licensed; $37,000 complete link (includes $1,000 10-year license); $0.00 5-year hardware warranty; 2.7Gbps release by Dec. 2006. I know Bob Moldashel said he has installed the Bridgewave. Anyone care to comment on any experience you've had with these companies? Thanks a lot. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] wireless fiber deployment
Licensed 70 to 80 GHz actually has less oxygen absorption of the signal than 60 GHz (by several orders of magnitude). If you are providing a Service Level Agreement with 5 - 9's or better % uptime then you should stick with a licensed product IMO. As Matt states below, both companies offer a licensed product. Depending on the rainfall annually where you are deploying you may get nearly the same uptime in 60 GHz, especially since it is just 0.4 miles. I would research before making a choice though if uptime requirements are strict. Remember to make sure you research your connection into the network also. Your point of demarcation will need to be identified. In many cases it is a port from the switch that you would provide. Make sure you select a switch compatible with the radio product you launch. If they provide the switch demarc point then make sure it is on the list of tested and known good hardware for connecting to the link you setup. Before quoting the product make sure you remember things like back-up power, downlead selection, surge and lightning suppression, stand-by spare radios for replacement, etc. Ask to see the software management interfaces for the radios being considered. If you buy radios that work but you cannot diagnose what is wrong when they break then you have a problem. It is not like you will have a 60 to 90 GHz signal meter or spectrum analyzer anytime soon so the software management interface is very important. If you do not address these things now then you will be sorry later. If I were you I would at least get a quote or two from fiber construction companies to see if a fiber could be built for same or less money. Depending on the location this might be the more efficient solution. That is the biggest beef I have with the millimeter-wave crowd right now. They try to think in terms of how much money they can squeeze out for each single link sale instead of looking at the mass potential if we could all get our hands on low-cost Gigabit backhaul to all of our towers. Ken and I have been beating this into their brains now for a couple of years. It will sink in someday when they think it is their idea. :-) jk Scriv Matt Liotta wrote: We deploy BrideWave gear and have been happy with it. BridgeWave also has a licensed radio operating in the 80Ghz range. -Matt Mario Pommier wrote: This is a new area of wireless deployment for me: I've been asked to quote for a gigabit wireless link between a radiology department and a nearby hospital (0.4 miles). I'm aware of two options so far, and here's some info I've gathered: -- BridgeWave - 60Ghz; unlicensed; $25,000 complete link; ~$6,000 5-year hardware warranty; 1Gbps -- GigaBeam - 70/80Ghz; licensed; $37,000 complete link (includes $1,000 10-year license); $0.00 5-year hardware warranty; 2.7Gbps release by Dec. 2006. I know Bob Moldashel said he has installed the Bridgewave. Anyone care to comment on any experience you've had with these companies? Thanks a lot. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
