Re: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
Rick Smith wrote: I still don't see why anyone should be able to use my network without paying me for the right to do so. PERIOD. I don't run a network for the benefit of the free world, I run it for the benefit of my checkbook. Which needs SERIOUS help. :) OK, and while we're at it, why is net neutral good ? I admit I've ignored most of the discussions on it due to the fact that I'm NOT a supporter. We are at this point in telecom for exactly these reasons: 1) Many do not even understand the issue, but take a side in it 2) Everyone was saying regulate them, but not us 3) It's my network I can do what I want with it Net Neutrality means that I buy an open, unfiltered pipe to the INTERNET. The best argument I have heard is that if you are offering a restricted pipe, then say so, because you are not offering the INTERNET. (Remember AOL used to have its community and you would open a portal to the WWW). That doesn't mean you can't prevent a degradation on your network, but that doesn't mean you get to give one content or app provider priority over another. The problem becomes when the customer only has one BB choice and that provider restricts his usage. And about FON... how is that any different that the nimrod consumers who leave their Linksys AP wide open?? This is just me rambling this morning. - Peter -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
Yeah, its jsut like a drug manuafacturer selling speed for fat loss knowing the possible harm, and getting off teh hook because of the little disclaimer that says, "please consult your doctor to see if this is right for you", knowing that 99% of people would never do that, nor read the fine print. With a business plan targeting the sales of millions of routers, its clear they could care less wether the end user violates their acceptable use policy. Are there any ISPs that allow circuit sharing, legally? I know a number of DSL resellers that allow circut sharing, but don;t disclose that their underlying agreement with their carrier prohibits it. Tom DeReggiRapidDSL Wireless, IncIntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Dylan Oliver To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality On 6/28/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it was, then it would be illegal to block hackers and criminals from using your network as well. As FON clearly has no concern for Acceptable Use Policiies, therefore illegal activity, and AUPs are clearly allowable and enforcable contracts. Strategically its a great time for FON to release their venture, to test the rules, the public, and ISPs. Wow, have any of you actually reviewed their site? OMFG the sky is falling hands waving! You may be interested in http://en.fon.com/biz/isps_friends.php.Also, the Terms and Conditions of Use CLEARLY states:4. Prior RequirementsThe user that opts for the Linus or Bill category, should, prior to accepting these TCs and before registering with the FON Community:(i) have a FON Social Router or a router that is compatible with the FONSoftware and (ii) have a contract with an ISP that permits the FONero to sharebandwidth.Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
On 6/29/06, Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The difference between FON and nimrod customers, is that FON isexploiting this for THEIR gain. is flowing, at my expense, intoFON's pockets, due to a nimrod customer that installed their gear at the violation of my AUP.Again, plz read fon.com website, so conveniently located at fon.com. Especially the page which invites operators to participate in the extraction of $$$ from Aliens and Bills using access points hosted by your subscribers. ya.-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
Title: Message out of curiosity (would like input from the pro net neutral people) -- would blocking something like FON constitute a violation of net neutrality? -Charles ---CWLabTechnology Architectshttp://www.cwlab.com -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick SmithSent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:41 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General ListSubject: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? Anyone seen FON ? This is insane. Anyone test one yet ? I want to know what network their hotspot runs back to, so I can block it Can someone that might have one throw a sniffer against it ? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
Title: Message I stilldon't see why anyone should be able to use my network without paying me for the right to do so. PERIOD. I don't run a network for the benefit of the free world, I run it for the benefit of my checkbook. Which needs SERIOUS help. :) OK, and while we're at it, why is "net neutral" good ? I admit I've ignored most of the discussions on it due to the fact that I'm NOT a supporter. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles WuSent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:32 AMTo: 'WISPA General List'Subject: RE: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality out of curiosity (would like input from the pro net neutral people) -- would blocking something like FON constitute a violation of net neutrality? -Charles ---CWLabTechnology Architectshttp://www.cwlab.com -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick SmithSent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:41 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General ListSubject: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? Anyone seen FON ? This is insane. Anyone test one yet ? I want to know what network their hotspot runs back to, so I can block it Can someone that might have one throw a sniffer against it ? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, Charles Wu wrote: out of curiosity (would like input from the pro net neutral people) -- would blocking something like FON constitute a violation of net neutrality? I don't think you'll find many pro net neutral people on this list. I would have to say that most of this group would say that blocking the FON network WOULD be a violation. I seem to recall an effort to do something similar to this by some California group a while back. I may be remembering wrong, but it sounds familiar. Either way, I bring them up, because I am remembering some discussions surrounding them and net neutrality. FWIW, I think most ISPs would view something like FON as a misuse of their service. There are many ISPs that may not have a written TOS (or don't have their customers sign a copy of their TOS). I don't want to get into the legality of what FON is attempting to do, as that will take the discussion outside the area of expertise of most on this list. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
Title: Message It is pretty much precluded by Roadrunners typical Terms of Service in their contract: (b) Subscriber will not resell the Service, or any portion thereof, or otherwise charge others to use the Service, or any portion thereof. The Service is for personal use only, and Subscriber agrees not to use the Service for operation as an Internet Service Provider, to host web sites for other parties or for any other business enterprise or to connect the Cable modem to any server or to any computer outside of the Subscriber's premises. Much more of the contract is available at: http://www.twcnc.com/road_runner/info/terms.cfm . . . j o n a t h a n From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 9:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality I stilldon't see why anyone should be able to use my network without paying me for the right to do so. PERIOD. I don't run a network for the benefit of the free world, I run it for the benefit of my checkbook. Which needs SERIOUS help. :) OK, and while we're at it, why is net neutral good ? I admit I've ignored most of the discussions on it due to the fact that I'm NOT a supporter. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:32 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality out of curiosity (would like input from the pro net neutral people) -- would blocking something like FON constitute a violation of net neutrality? -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Smith Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? Anyone seen FON ? This is insane. Anyone test one yet ? I want to know what network their hotspot runs back to, so I can block it Can someone that might have one throw a sniffer against it ? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
On Wed, 28 Jun 2006, Rick Smith wrote: OK, and while we're at it, why is net neutral good ? I admit The terminology here is somewhat confusing. The term net neutral seems to be used to describe two unrelated ideologies (both of which are bad, IMNSHO). One is the opposite view to what ATT (and others) are trying to push through Congress to allow them to charge certain content providers for premium access to their (ATT's) customers. The other is a movement by some to make it bad to do any shaping of any type of your network traffic. Both are whacko ideas, IMO. I've ignored most of the discussions on it due to the fact that I'm NOT a supporter. I've not followed the discussions here very much, but I would agree with your assessment of the situation. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
Why don't we as an industry organization start putting net neutrality in clear light. We've got people running around using the net neutrality banner to demand unfiltered P2P use, unlimited data transfers, or that QOS NOT be implemented. I think it would be more constructive if we broke this up a bit and more clearly focused on certain issues: 1. restricting end users from sites for pay.I think this is THE issue of importance. Can, say, SBC, demand money from content providers for SBC's dsl and dialup customers to reach it? 2. restricting use of a service in TOS agreements with contracted customer. ( limits on transfer, hosting prohibitions, etc, etc) 3. Network operations. (blocking malicious traffic, broadcast packets, QOS, blah blah) I see all three of these mixed together under the banner of net neutrality and I think it has done a huge amount ot cloud the debate and discussion, rather than enlighten or resolve anything. The big guys are saying If you want ot reach OUR customers, pay us, while at the same time, telling thier customers if you want to reach the internet, pay us - but I don't see anything telling thier customers you won't be able reach, or you'll have slow access to this list of sites unless they pay us as well!. Frankly, I'm all for letting anyone run thier network any way they wish. But that the customer have protection, in the following manner... That any ISP that engages in the practice outlined under #1, be required to disclose that to thier customers, and that they have a publicly available list of all restricted or degraded sites for anyone and everyone to examine at thier leisure.And if they don't, thier customers can sue them. This is a consumer protection law that is relatively non-intrusive, and certainly doesn't restrict network operations. In fact, it wouldn't be bad to apply #2 and #3 partly to this kind of law, as well. I don't think it needs to be federal, certainly state laws are more than sufficient. As a provider's association, WISPA should be issueing press releases and lobbying to make this an informed debate and clear up some of the confusion about net neutrality and to bring some clarity and clarity to the issues brought up. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 12:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality I understood Charles post regarding net neutrality, that you summarized also very clearly. My point is that Net Neutrality conflicts with other laws and regulations as well. So voting for some thing for one reason, could also mean voting against it for another. For a strong Net NEtrality act, you'd aahve to allow FON, but for other leegal matters, you'd have to deny FON. So it becomes a compflict of which issue is more important to protect? Whcih has precidence? Thats what Congress and ISPs have to decide. Its not a right ro wrong answer. Its what answer has more (or more important) rights than wrongs? I think Home Land Security/Law inforcement/ Privacy advocates, and Net Neutrality experets really need to be ALL working on the Net neutrality issue together, because its all intertwined. What I see happening is a bunch of conflicting regulations being passed, with out rtealizing it when getting voted on. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality I think what Charles is getting at is, is it legal for an ISP to place the 'no open AP' or 'no sharing your connection' restriction on your service? I have heard some people arguing the case that NN is I'm paying for my bandwidth so I can do what I want to with it. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Tom DeReggi wrote: If it was, then it would be illegal to block hackers and criminals from using your network as well. As FON clearly has no concern for Acceptable Use Policiies, therefore illegal activity, and AUPs are clearly allowable and enforcable contracts. Strategically its a great time for FON to release their venture, to test the rules, the public, and ISPs. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Charles Wu mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:32 AM *Subject:* RE: [WISPA] www.fon.com
RE: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
Tom, You have a lot of good points, but so does Charles and others, Why don't you petition WISPA and some of the other ISP organization to sponsor a Net Neutrality bakeoff. You can have views from the service provider aspects. What needs and will come out of it in the end will be the discussion of how complex this issue is. Then Steam it so people can watch get educated on their own time. (The ISP organization can brand the daylights out of it for their contributions). Dustin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 3:23 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality I understood Charles post regarding net neutrality, that you summarized also very clearly. My point is that Net Neutrality conflicts with other laws and regulations as well. So voting for some thing for one reason, could also mean voting against it for another. For a strong Net NEtrality act, you'd aahve to allow FON, but for other leegal matters, you'd have to deny FON. So it becomes a compflict of which issue is more important to protect? Whcih has precidence? Thats what Congress and ISPs have to decide. Its not a right ro wrong answer. Its what answer has more (or more important) rights than wrongs? I think Home Land Security/Law inforcement/ Privacy advocates, and Net Neutrality experets really need to be ALL working on the Net neutrality issue together, because its all intertwined. What I see happening is a bunch of conflicting regulations being passed, with out rtealizing it when getting voted on. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2006 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality I think what Charles is getting at is, is it legal for an ISP to place the 'no open AP' or 'no sharing your connection' restriction on your service? I have heard some people arguing the case that NN is I'm paying for my bandwidth so I can do what I want to with it. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Tom DeReggi wrote: If it was, then it would be illegal to block hackers and criminals from using your network as well. As FON clearly has no concern for Acceptable Use Policiies, therefore illegal activity, and AUPs are clearly allowable and enforcable contracts. Strategically its a great time for FON to release their venture, to test the rules, the public, and ISPs. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Charles Wu mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Wednesday, June 28, 2006 10:32 AM *Subject:* RE: [WISPA] www.fon.com http://www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality out of curiosity (would like input from the pro net neutral people) -- would blocking something like FON constitute a violation of net neutrality? -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Rick Smith *Sent:* Wednesday, June 28, 2006 8:41 AM *To:* [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List *Subject:* [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? Anyone seen FON ? This is insane. Anyone test one yet ? I want to know what network their hotspot runs back to, so I can block it Can someone that might have one throw a sniffer against it ? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ !DSPAM:16,44a2c5c4194921117628507! -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
On 6/28/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If it was, then it would be illegal to block hackers and criminals from using your network as well. As FON clearly has no concern for Acceptable Use Policiies, therefore illegal activity, and AUPs are clearly allowable and enforcable contracts. Strategically its a great time for FON to release their venture, to test the rules, the public, and ISPs.Wow, have any of you actually reviewed their site? OMFG the sky is falling hands waving! You may be interested in http://en.fon.com/biz/isps_friends.php.Also, the Terms and Conditions of Use CLEARLY states:4. Prior RequirementsThe user that opts for the Linus or Bill category, should, prior to accepting these TCs and before registering with the FON Community:(i) have a FON Social Router or a router that is compatible with the FONSoftware and (ii) have a contract with an ISP that permits the FONero to share bandwidth.Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] www.fon.com - a threat to us all? - back to net neutrality
Dylan Oliver wrote: http://en.fon.com/biz/isps_friends.php. (i) have a FON Social Router or a router that is compatible with the FON Software and (ii) have a contract with an ISP that permits the FONero to share bandwidth. And how many of your customers actually read all the fine print in your TOS? I know mine don't. :( David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
