Re: [WISPA] Insurance once again

[RickG]

Just be sure to educate yourself on your insurance needs and review the
policy with a fine tooth comb!

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 2:11 PM, Adair Winter 
wrote:

> Risk strategies has been awesome
>
> On Feb 3, 2017 12:07 PM, "Marco Coelho"  wrote:
>
>>
>> Apparently Liberty Mutual has misplaced their testes and has sent us a
>> non-renewal notice with reason code being they no longer insure ISPs.  No
>> losses for a decade.
>>
>> Any suggestions out there?  We're talking about bulidings, towers,
>> liability, etc.
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Marco C. Coelho
>> Argon Technologies Inc.
>> POB 875
>> Greenville, TX 75403-0875
>> 903-455-5036 <(903)%20455-5036>
>>
>> ___
>> Wireless mailing list
>> Wireless@wispa.org
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>>
> ___
> Wireless mailing list
> Wireless@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>


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Re: [WISPA] Insurance once again

[Jan-OOLLC]

they misplaced their Cohones?  Is the sky falling?  What other insurers 
exist?


Jan V

On 02/13/2017 11:11 AM, Adair Winter wrote:

Risk strategies has been awesome

On Feb 3, 2017 12:07 PM, "Marco Coelho" > wrote:



Apparently Liberty Mutual has misplaced their testes and has sent
us a non-renewal notice with reason code being they no longer
insure ISPs.  No losses for a decade.

Any suggestions out there?  We're talking about bulidings, towers,
liability, etc.

Thanks in advance.




-- 
Marco C. Coelho

Argon Technologies Inc.
POB 875
Greenville, TX 75403-0875
903-455-5036 

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Re: [WISPA] Insurance once again

[Adair Winter]

Risk strategies has been awesome

On Feb 3, 2017 12:07 PM, "Marco Coelho"  wrote:

>
> Apparently Liberty Mutual has misplaced their testes and has sent us a
> non-renewal notice with reason code being they no longer insure ISPs.  No
> losses for a decade.
>
> Any suggestions out there?  We're talking about bulidings, towers,
> liability, etc.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Marco C. Coelho
> Argon Technologies Inc.
> POB 875
> Greenville, TX 75403-0875
> 903-455-5036 <(903)%20455-5036>
>
> ___
> Wireless mailing list
> Wireless@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance once again

[Ryan Keeley]

Marco –

I may be able to help you out, feel free to contact me to discuss.


Ryan Keeley | Account Executive

rkee...@unitelinsurance.com<mailto:rkee...@unitelinsurance.com>
317-844-5173(d)
317-695-1901(m)
317-575-0490(fax)

[cid:image003.png@01D1EBE7.71639760]

NOTICE:  The information contained in this email, including any attachments are 
confidential, and/or privileged and may be subject to protection under the law, 
including the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, (HIPAA).  
The message is intended for the sole use of the individual or entity to whom it 
is addressed.  It is the responsibility of the addressee to scan for any 
computer viruses or other defects.  The sender does not accept liability for 
any loss or damage of any nature, which may result from the email or any file 
attached.  If you have received this email in error, please notify immediately 
by reply email then delete and destroy any printed copies.




From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of RickG
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 8:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance once again

I had the same issue. After going to a LOCAL, REPUTABLE AGENT we ended up 
saving money and can beat on his door when/if there are issues!

On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Marco Coelho 
<coelh...@gmail.com<mailto:coelh...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Apparently Liberty Mutual has misplaced their testes and has sent us a 
non-renewal notice with reason code being they no longer insure ISPs.  No 
losses for a decade.

Any suggestions out there?  We're talking about bulidings, towers, liability, 
etc.

Thanks in advance.




--
Marco C. Coelho
Argon Technologies Inc.
POB 875
Greenville, TX 75403-0875
903-455-5036

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Re: [WISPA] Insurance once again

[Clay Stewart]

Go local, or nearby city.

On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Marco Coelho  wrote:

>
> Apparently Liberty Mutual has misplaced their testes and has sent us a
> non-renewal notice with reason code being they no longer insure ISPs.  No
> losses for a decade.
>
> Any suggestions out there?  We're talking about bulidings, towers,
> liability, etc.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Marco C. Coelho
> Argon Technologies Inc.
> POB 875
> Greenville, TX 75403-0875
> 903-455-5036 <(903)%20455-5036>
>
> ___
> Wireless mailing list
> Wireless@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>


-- 


-- 
Clay Stewart, COO/CTO
SCS Broadband
A Division of Acelanet, LLC
  434.263.6363 O
  434.942.6510 C
  cstew...@scsbroadband.com
“We Keep You Up and Running”

Please send sales inquiries to sa...@scsbroadband.com
Please send service/repair requests to supp...@scsbroadband.com
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance once again

[RickG]

I had the same issue. After going to a LOCAL, REPUTABLE AGENT we ended up
saving money and can beat on his door when/if there are issues!

On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 1:07 PM, Marco Coelho  wrote:

>
> Apparently Liberty Mutual has misplaced their testes and has sent us a
> non-renewal notice with reason code being they no longer insure ISPs.  No
> losses for a decade.
>
> Any suggestions out there?  We're talking about bulidings, towers,
> liability, etc.
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Marco C. Coelho
> Argon Technologies Inc.
> POB 875
> Greenville, TX 75403-0875
> 903-455-5036
>
> ___
> Wireless mailing list
> Wireless@wispa.org
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>


-- 
-RickG
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance once again

[Keefe John]

This happens all the time.  No matter what your 'agent' says, make sure 
the carrier actually covers ISPs and tower climbers.


These two companies FOR SURE cover this:

Chubb
Hanover

Keefe


On 2/3/2017 12:07 PM, Marco Coelho wrote:


Apparently Liberty Mutual has misplaced their testes and has sent us a 
non-renewal notice with reason code being they no longer insure ISPs.  
No losses for a decade.


Any suggestions out there?  We're talking about bulidings, towers, 
liability, etc.


Thanks in advance.




--
Marco C. Coelho
Argon Technologies Inc.
POB 875
Greenville, TX 75403-0875
903-455-5036


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Re: [WISPA] Insurance carriers (I need one)

[Marco Coelho]

Again, the Hartford.  A couple of claims in 10 years.  No issues.

mc

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 7:35 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:
 www.selectiveinsurance.com
 I've been very happy with them for several years now. With that said,
 I've never had a claim. Maybe the better question is: Who is happy
 with their insurance company AFTER they've had a claim?
 -RickG

 On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Scott Carullo
 sc...@brevardwireless.com wrote:
 I'm having a hard time finding someone to insure us for the requirements 
 below...

 Employer's liability insurance in an amount not less than $1,000,000 each 
 occurrence.

 Commercial General Liability (including completed operations and contractual 
 liability) on an occurrence basis with limits of not less than $5,000,000 
 per occurrence which can be achieved through a combination of primary and 
 excess liability (umbrella) policies.

 Comprehensive form automobile liability covering owned, hired and non-owned 
 vehicles with limits of not less than $5,000,000 combined single limit each 
 accident which can be achieved through a combination of primary and excess 
 liability (umbrella) policies.

 All-risk or special causes of loss property insurance covering the Site 
 Equipment and appurtenant personal property for full replacement cost.

 All policies required hereunder shall be written by an insurer having a 
 policyholder rating (Best Rating) of at least A- or better and be 
 assigned a financial size category of at least Class VIII as rated in the 
 most recent edition of Best's Key Rating Guide for insurance companies, 
 and be authorized to do business within the State of FL.  Such commercial 
 general liability and property insurance policies shall name Licensor and 
 the Site Manager (and such other parties as Licensor may reasonably specify 
 from time to time) as additional insureds.

 Anyone have any suggestions of a carrier that understands our industry and 
 the fact that an antenna on a building or tower would probably never cause 
 any claims to be submitted...  Just there cause the lessor needs the 
 paperwork.  Thanks.

 Scott Carullo
 Brevard Wireless
 321-205-1100 x102




 
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-- 
Marco C. Coelho
Argon Technologies Inc.
POB 875
Greenville, TX 75403-0875
903-455-5036



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance carriers (I need one)

[Blake Bowers]

http://www.towerinsurance.net/

Ask for David Saul.  David is recognized quickly by any of the
tower companies, and completely trusted.

I believe he can take care of all your needs.


Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: Scott Carullo sc...@brevardwireless.com
To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 9:59 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance carriers (I need one)


 I'm having a hard time finding someone to insure us for the requirements 
 below...

 Employer's liability insurance in an amount not less than $1,000,000 each 
 occurrence.

 Commercial General Liability (including completed operations and 
 contractual liability) on an occurrence basis with limits of not less than 
 $5,000,000 per occurrence which can be achieved through a combination of 
 primary and excess liability (umbrella) policies.

 Comprehensive form automobile liability covering owned, hired and 
 non-owned vehicles with limits of not less than $5,000,000 combined single 
 limit each accident which can be achieved through a combination of primary 
 and excess liability (umbrella) policies.

 All-risk or special causes of loss property insurance covering the Site 
 Equipment and appurtenant personal property for full replacement cost.

 All policies required hereunder shall be written by an insurer having a 
 policyholder rating (Best Rating) of at least A- or better and be 
 assigned a financial size category of at least Class VIII as rated in the 
 most recent edition of Best's Key Rating Guide for insurance companies, 
 and be authorized to do business within the State of FL.  Such commercial 
 general liability and property insurance policies shall name Licensor and 
 the Site Manager (and such other parties as Licensor may reasonably 
 specify from time to time) as additional insureds.

 Anyone have any suggestions of a carrier that understands our industry and 
 the fact that an antenna on a building or tower would probably never cause 
 any claims to be submitted...  Just there cause the lessor needs the 
 paperwork.  Thanks.

 Scott Carullo
 Brevard Wireless
 321-205-1100 x102




 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance carriers (I need one)

[RickG]

www.selectiveinsurance.com
I've been very happy with them for several years now. With that said,
I've never had a claim. Maybe the better question is: Who is happy
with their insurance company AFTER they've had a claim?
-RickG

On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Scott Carullo
sc...@brevardwireless.com wrote:
 I'm having a hard time finding someone to insure us for the requirements 
 below...

 Employer's liability insurance in an amount not less than $1,000,000 each 
 occurrence.

 Commercial General Liability (including completed operations and contractual 
 liability) on an occurrence basis with limits of not less than $5,000,000 per 
 occurrence which can be achieved through a combination of primary and excess 
 liability (umbrella) policies.

 Comprehensive form automobile liability covering owned, hired and non-owned 
 vehicles with limits of not less than $5,000,000 combined single limit each 
 accident which can be achieved through a combination of primary and excess 
 liability (umbrella) policies.

 All-risk or special causes of loss property insurance covering the Site 
 Equipment and appurtenant personal property for full replacement cost.

 All policies required hereunder shall be written by an insurer having a 
 policyholder rating (Best Rating) of at least A- or better and be 
 assigned a financial size category of at least Class VIII as rated in the 
 most recent edition of Best's Key Rating Guide for insurance companies, and 
 be authorized to do business within the State of FL.  Such commercial general 
 liability and property insurance policies shall name Licensor and the Site 
 Manager (and such other parties as Licensor may reasonably specify from time 
 to time) as additional insureds.

 Anyone have any suggestions of a carrier that understands our industry and 
 the fact that an antenna on a building or tower would probably never cause 
 any claims to be submitted...  Just there cause the lessor needs the 
 paperwork.  Thanks.

 Scott Carullo
 Brevard Wireless
 321-205-1100 x102




 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance

[Robert West]

Depends on if you are using sub contractors, in house or doing it all just
by yourself.  

We use a few subs but require that they have insurance of their own and have
to see actually proof AND call the agent to verify.  (Don't ever take a subs
word for insurance coverage because 99.9% of the time, LIE!)  I actually had
to pay for a minor fender bender caused by a sub contractor who had no
insurance even on his truck  Doesn't matter about any signed
agreement, the small claims judge still treated it as an employee/employer
relationship.  

So make sure it will cover any sub contractor messes.  

We use a local guy, no big insurance company.  He handles it all for us
through his agency.  Our number one thing was the coverage limit.  1 million
bucks is cheap enough but if you step back, 1 million bucks pays how much of
some apartment building and contents that burned down because one of your
guys drilled a hole through a gas line or electrical line and was either too
stupid to notice or too scared to tell anyone?

Bob-



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeremie Chism
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:27 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance

Outside of general liability insurance what insurance are some of you  
using. Also any recommendations on companies?

Sent from my iPhone




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance

[Josh Luthman]

You can have your subcontractors put you on the list of people to update
with any insurance changes.  This will tell you if their insurance is halted
because of payment, or whatever.

Can't remember what the word is.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue
that counts.”
--- Winston Churchill


On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote:

 Depends on if you are using sub contractors, in house or doing it all just
 by yourself.

 We use a few subs but require that they have insurance of their own and
 have
 to see actually proof AND call the agent to verify.  (Don't ever take a
 subs
 word for insurance coverage because 99.9% of the time, LIE!)  I actually
 had
 to pay for a minor fender bender caused by a sub contractor who had no
 insurance even on his truck  Doesn't matter about any signed
 agreement, the small claims judge still treated it as an employee/employer
 relationship.

 So make sure it will cover any sub contractor messes.

 We use a local guy, no big insurance company.  He handles it all for us
 through his agency.  Our number one thing was the coverage limit.  1
 million
 bucks is cheap enough but if you step back, 1 million bucks pays how much
 of
 some apartment building and contents that burned down because one of your
 guys drilled a hole through a gas line or electrical line and was either
 too
 stupid to notice or too scared to tell anyone?

 Bob-



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Jeremie Chism
 Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:27 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Insurance

 Outside of general liability insurance what insurance are some of you
 using. Also any recommendations on companies?

 Sent from my iPhone



 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance

[Robert West]

I think the technical insurance term for that is coveringyourass.

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:46 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

You can have your subcontractors put you on the list of people to update
with any insurance changes.  This will tell you if their insurance is halted
because of payment, or whatever.

Can't remember what the word is.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue
that counts.
--- Winston Churchill


On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Robert West
robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote:

 Depends on if you are using sub contractors, in house or doing it all just
 by yourself.

 We use a few subs but require that they have insurance of their own and
 have
 to see actually proof AND call the agent to verify.  (Don't ever take a
 subs
 word for insurance coverage because 99.9% of the time, LIE!)  I actually
 had
 to pay for a minor fender bender caused by a sub contractor who had no
 insurance even on his truck  Doesn't matter about any signed
 agreement, the small claims judge still treated it as an employee/employer
 relationship.

 So make sure it will cover any sub contractor messes.

 We use a local guy, no big insurance company.  He handles it all for us
 through his agency.  Our number one thing was the coverage limit.  1
 million
 bucks is cheap enough but if you step back, 1 million bucks pays how much
 of
 some apartment building and contents that burned down because one of your
 guys drilled a hole through a gas line or electrical line and was either
 too
 stupid to notice or too scared to tell anyone?

 Bob-



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Jeremie Chism
 Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:27 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Insurance

 Outside of general liability insurance what insurance are some of you
 using. Also any recommendations on companies?

 Sent from my iPhone





 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance

[RickG]

coveringyourass.com is taken too :)
Actually, my anti-virus says it has a infection! It must not have been
covered!

On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:38 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote:

 I think the technical insurance term for that is coveringyourass.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:46 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 You can have your subcontractors put you on the list of people to update
 with any insurance changes.  This will tell you if their insurance is
 halted
 because of payment, or whatever.

 Can't remember what the word is.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue
 that counts.
 --- Winston Churchill


 On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Robert West
 robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote:

  Depends on if you are using sub contractors, in house or doing it all
 just
  by yourself.
 
  We use a few subs but require that they have insurance of their own and
  have
  to see actually proof AND call the agent to verify.  (Don't ever take a
  subs
  word for insurance coverage because 99.9% of the time, LIE!)  I actually
  had
  to pay for a minor fender bender caused by a sub contractor who had no
  insurance even on his truck  Doesn't matter about any signed
  agreement, the small claims judge still treated it as an
 employee/employer
  relationship.
 
  So make sure it will cover any sub contractor messes.
 
  We use a local guy, no big insurance company.  He handles it all for us
  through his agency.  Our number one thing was the coverage limit.  1
  million
  bucks is cheap enough but if you step back, 1 million bucks pays how much
  of
  some apartment building and contents that burned down because one of your
  guys drilled a hole through a gas line or electrical line and was either
  too
  stupid to notice or too scared to tell anyone?
 
  Bob-
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
  Behalf Of Jeremie Chism
  Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:27 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: [WISPA] Insurance
 
  Outside of general liability insurance what insurance are some of you
  using. Also any recommendations on companies?
 
  Sent from my iPhone
 
 
 
 

 
  
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance

[D. Ryan Spott]

Certificate of insurance.

ryan


On Feb 3, 2010, at 7:38 PM, Robert West wrote:

 I think the technical insurance term for that is coveringyourass.

 Bob-


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:46 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 You can have your subcontractors put you on the list of people to  
 update
 with any insurance changes.  This will tell you if their insurance  
 is halted
 because of payment, or whatever.

 Can't remember what the word is.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to  
 continue
 that counts.
 --- Winston Churchill


 On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:38 PM, Robert West
 robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote:

 Depends on if you are using sub contractors, in house or doing it  
 all just
 by yourself.

 We use a few subs but require that they have insurance of their own  
 and
 have
 to see actually proof AND call the agent to verify.  (Don't ever  
 take a
 subs
 word for insurance coverage because 99.9% of the time, LIE!)  I  
 actually
 had
 to pay for a minor fender bender caused by a sub contractor who had  
 no
 insurance even on his truck  Doesn't matter about any signed
 agreement, the small claims judge still treated it as an employee/ 
 employer
 relationship.

 So make sure it will cover any sub contractor messes.

 We use a local guy, no big insurance company.  He handles it all  
 for us
 through his agency.  Our number one thing was the coverage limit.  1
 million
 bucks is cheap enough but if you step back, 1 million bucks pays  
 how much
 of
 some apartment building and contents that burned down because one  
 of your
 guys drilled a hole through a gas line or electrical line and was  
 either
 too
 stupid to notice or too scared to tell anyone?

 Bob-



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Jeremie Chism
 Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2010 9:27 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Insurance

 Outside of general liability insurance what insurance are some of you
 using. Also any recommendations on companies?

 Sent from my iPhone




 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 9, 2009, at 5:02 PM, Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Matt, would you mind clarifying.When you said... have not the  
 left the
 business, did you mean

I don't mind clarifying, but I am not sure what the interest is.

 1) Have not left OneRing/RapidLink, and are involved in a non-employee
 capacity.
 or that
 2) Have not left the Wireless Industry.

I have not left the wireless industry. The simplest way to describe my  
status with Rapid Link is to state that it is what was before except I  
am no longer on the board and am not an employee. Rapid Link did file  
an 8-K when I resigned from the board. Further, they have also filed  
that they entered into a merge transaction and subsequent management  
agreement. If you are interested in Rapid Link there is plenty of SEC  
filings to read.

 When you said...  I cant talk about it, did you mean

 1) You cant talk about your status at OneRing/RapidLink
 or that
 2) You cant talk about what you are doing now..

I can't talk about what I am doing now.

-Matt



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 10, 2009, at 1:29 AM, rwf wrote:

 Oh?
 So you are still a WISP then?
 What is your company called?

Guess your filter still isn't working then. I am not a WISP and never  
have been.

If you think you know something and would like to get yourself and  
others in trouble then by all means post away.

-Matt





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[Patrick Leary]

Unlicensed to kill of course. 


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:04 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

At what frequency? :P

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
wrote:

 Wireless denizens never die, we just attenuate away into oblivion.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
 On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 2:02 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

 MMmm... What does Hotel California and Wireless Execs have in common?
 you can check in, but you can never leave :-)

 Sounds like Matt is saying he still has vested interest to stay 
 involved in RL/OR to protect his investment revenue.

 Matt, would you mind clarifying.When you said... have not the 
 left the business, did you mean

 1) Have not left OneRing/RapidLink, and are involved in a non-employee

 capacity.
 or that
 2) Have not left the Wireless Industry.

 When you said...  I cant talk about it, did you mean

 1) You cant talk about your status at OneRing/RapidLink or that
 2) You cant talk about what you are doing now..

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 10:07 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest


 I am not longer with Rapid Link/One Ring as an employee, but I have  
 not left the business. Ralph likes to speak out of turn.
 
  -Matt
 
  On Dec 9, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Brad Belton wrote:
 
  Matt's not in the business anymore?  News to me.  I thought he was 
  with Rapid or Ring something or another?  Not anymore?  If true, 
  that really is interesting...
 
 
  Brad
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org 
  [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
  On
  Behalf Of rwf
  Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:50 AM
  To: 'WISPA General List'
  Subject: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest
 
  Matt-
 
  Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.
 
  When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more
active.
 
  Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I 
  understand you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of 
  us still are.
 
 
 
  I even made a filter but you keep slipping through.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Larsen - Lists]

 or 
illness and that these deaths are preventable.   The resolutions to the 
sanitation problems and preventable clotting deaths are basically little 
or no cost to implement, but they are seen as an intrusion.   
Apparently, there is a lot of entitlement on the high end of the health 
care scale too, in the form of doctors and administrators that can't be 
bothered to do the right thing.   Best health care system in the 
world?   I don't think so.

All this being said, the prospect of government run, single payer 
insurance doesn't bother me at all.   It costs my business $84,000 a 
year right now for shitty health insurance for my employees.I would 
gladly pay higher taxes to be rid of that burden - or at least get it to 
the point where we have a stable system that works the same way year 
after year and covers the basic needs of most people.   Anyone who 
doesn't like it can just keep their insurance and go to the private 
practices and pay whatever they want to.  

Whether you agree with me or not, you should take the time to read this 
article in the Atlantic about health care - 
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care -  it was a painful 
read for me, but a big eye opener and the best summary I have come 
across yet about our health care system and its failings.   Take the 
time - you will not regret it.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com




MDK wrote:
 Every country with a government run medical system   Denies routine 
 medical care, extraordinary medical care, or expensive medical care on a 
 routine basis.   This is why babies delivered by the NHS hospitals in 
 Britain are less than 90% born in a hospital room or delivery room. The 
 rest are born in hallways, waiting rooms, streets, cabs, or ambulances 
 because there are no available rooms.And, this number hasn't changed 
 significantly in years and will not change, because the government simply 
 hasn't enough money to expand facilities.

 This is why in some cities in Canada, the wait for the assignment of a 
 personal physician can take up to 5 years.The government can't hire 
 enough doctors, and those that are hired have no incentive to take on 
 greater case loads.

 This is why Veterinarians in Canada have near instant access to MRI 
 machines, while people do not.Veterinary services are free market, 
 people's service are socialized.

 In every case, the government balances it's books by simply denying services 
 or delaying services to people.

 But, of course, if a government beaurocrat denies treatment, like was done 
 for my mother, the patient just dies and we all mutter ooh, that's so sad 
 and we go on our way, secure in the fact that it wasn't our failure to pull 
 out our wallets and give to help the needy, but if someone dies because they 
 themselves could not afford to pay for it (as opposed to the agency budget 
 not having the money), we get to get all righteous and get on our soapbox 
 and yell rants and raves and excoriate those selfish bastards who are 
 refusing to give Congress a few more trillion dollars a year to spend in 
 ways to benefit themselves politically.

 I mean, it's so easy, once the government has to decide, not you having to 
 decide whether you have to sacrifice for charity, your conscience and self 
 righteousness can remain fully intact - it won't be YOUR fault they died 
 like my mother did, because Medicare refused treatment, right?After all, 
 Medicare denies treatment to covered patients MORE than any other insurer, 
 public or private, in some cases by more than 5 times as many denials as 
 private insurance.Yet, Medicare has the largest percentage of fraudulent 
 payments of any insurer, BY FAR.But, hey, if it's the government's 
 responsibility, we're morally relieved of any personal responsibility for 
 those who suffer for a lack, right?

 Or, are you going to tell us that government can buy unlimited health care 
 for everyone?

 --
 From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 4:59 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

   
 And I guess because you know someone from Canada/Britain/France/Spain/
 etc that swears the healthcare is worse then they make it out to be
 and that the US is where everyone with money goes then it must be
 true. Let's all just ignore study after study that shows every single
 first world country has it better than the US. Sure, I'll believe Cuba
 is hiding the real story. What about the other 30+ countries that have
 better healthcare at a lower GDP cost? Are they lying too?

 -Matt

 
  



 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

I can't reread what you said. I can however reread what you wrote. I  
suggest you do the same. You state that you weren't commenting on the  
whole healthcare debate. Yet you were responding to a thread that was  
specifically a healthcare debate. Thus, it is reasonable to take your  
comments in the context of the overall debate. Further, I understand  
your comment was limited to your personal experience with Cuba. As I  
stated though, such anecdotes may be true, but are meaningless in the  
larger debate. While you may have meant only to share your personal  
experience with Cuba you ended up presenting a standard straw-man  
argument that has been used throughout the debate. If you don't want  
people to interpret your comments in the larger context of the debate  
you are participating in then I suggest stating that or simply don't  
comment.

Now with specific regard to Cuba... Here you have a nation that is  
estimated to be the 70th largest economy in the world and ranked  
directly behind the largest economy in world in terms of healthcare.  
Maybe the rankings are flawed. Maybe Cuba lies about their statistics.  
Maybe they provide good healthcare to some and deny it to others. I  
don't really care since I have no desire to emulate our healthcare  
after Cuba. But, it is telling that such a poor country can do so well  
and a rich country like ours can do so poor.

-Matt

On Dec 8, 2009, at 9:08 PM, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote:

 Matt,

   Please reread what I said. I wasn't commenting on the whole  
 healthcare debate. I was talking about Cuba. CUBA CUBA CUBA. Do you  
 get it now? Just CUBA. Reread the original post and get off your  
 high horse. Have you noticed everyone else stopped replying to you.

   Everyone else, sorry, that's my last post on this topic no matter  
 what Matt says next.

 Greg

 On Dec 8, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Matt Liotta wrote:


 On Dec 8, 2009, at 8:56 PM, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote:

 Matt,

 Chill, you're taking a really harsh tone. I'm talking about Cuba
 because I know about that. I have many Latino friends. I speak
 Spanish. I know Cubans and I know a lot of people who have been to
 Cuba. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not refuting all those
 other countries statistics. I thought you wanted debate of the
 facts. Or do you just want us to sit at your feet and listen?

 I do want to debate the facts, but you are responding with anecdotes.
 This is a standard straw-man used throughout the healthcare debate. I
 know person X from country Y that says this or had such and such
 happen to them. Such a statement can be true, but it is meaningless  
 in
 the context of the debate. Such a situation needs to be statistically
 significant to matter. All systems have their flaws as no one  
 believes
 a perfect system exists.

 -Matt



 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 9:32 PM, MDK wrote:

 As I stated before...   Medicare reimburses such low amounts, that  
 ever
 doctor, hospital, clinic, lab, etc, that accepts it does so at a  
 loss.   Not
 just no profit but at a loss.Not only that, but Medicare has the
 highest level of financial fraud, period.   It's very efficient...  
 at giving
 away money for nothing, and yet, at the same time,  has created the  
 single
 largest pick the pocket of someone else program to exist.

Cite your sources.

-Matt




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 11:29 PM, MDK wrote:

 I'm sure you're a nice guy...

 But you're trying to convince a lot of people who know better by  
 long years
 of experience, that life would be beautiful and all will be fine, if  
 we just
 give Congress a few more trillion dollars a year of our hard earned  
 money.

I am pretty sure that wasn't his position.

-Matt



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 9, 2009, at 12:20 AM, MDK wrote:

 Every country with a government run medical system   Denies  
 routine
 medical care, extraordinary medical care, or expensive medical care  
 on a
 routine basis.   This is why babies delivered by the NHS hospitals in
 Britain are less than 90% born in a hospital room or delivery  
 room. The
 rest are born in hallways, waiting rooms, streets, cabs, or ambulances
 because there are no available rooms.And, this number hasn't  
 changed
 significantly in years and will not change, because the government  
 simply
 hasn't enough money to expand facilities.

What is your point? Every private insurance company in the US denies  
routine medical care, extraordinary medical care, or expensive medical  
care on a routine basis.

 This is why in some cities in Canada, the wait for the assignment of a
 personal physician can take up to 5 years.The government can't  
 hire
 enough doctors, and those that are hired have no incentive to take on
 greater case loads.

That would likely happen here as well if the entire population had  
access to healthcare. What isn't clear from your statement is that  
while true it is believed to only affect 5% of the Canadian  
population. Whereas around at least 15% of americans are in the same  
boat since they don't have insurance.

 This is why Veterinarians in Canada have near instant access to MRI
 machines, while people do not.Veterinary services are free market,
 people's service are socialized.

I think your point is that if you pay for the MRI you can get it  
immediately. This is true for people in Canada as well.

 In every case, the government balances it's books by simply denying  
 services
 or delaying services to people.

Sounds like our private insurance companies only their books have to  
also balance the profit they need to deliver to their shareholders.

 I mean, it's so easy, once the government has to decide, not you  
 having to
 decide whether you have to sacrifice for charity, your conscience  
 and self
 righteousness can remain fully intact - it won't be YOUR fault they  
 died
 like my mother did, because Medicare refused treatment, right? 
 After all,
 Medicare denies treatment to covered patients MORE than any other  
 insurer,
 public or private, in some cases by more than 5 times as many  
 denials as
 private insurance.Yet, Medicare has the largest percentage of  
 fraudulent
 payments of any insurer, BY FAR.But, hey, if it's the government's
 responsibility, we're morally relieved of any personal  
 responsibility for
 those who suffer for a lack, right?

Cite your sources.

 Or, are you going to tell us that government can buy unlimited  
 health care
 for everyone?

No one thinks they can.

-Matt





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

 failure  
 to pull
 out our wallets and give to help the needy, but if someone dies  
 because they
 themselves could not afford to pay for it (as opposed to the agency  
 budget
 not having the money), we get to get all righteous and get on our  
 soapbox
 and yell rants and raves and excoriate those selfish bastards who are
 refusing to give Congress a few more trillion dollars a year to  
 spend in
 ways to benefit themselves politically.

 I mean, it's so easy, once the government has to decide, not you  
 having to
 decide whether you have to sacrifice for charity, your conscience  
 and self
 righteousness can remain fully intact - it won't be YOUR fault they  
 died
 like my mother did, because Medicare refused treatment, right? 
 After all,
 Medicare denies treatment to covered patients MORE than any other  
 insurer,
 public or private, in some cases by more than 5 times as many  
 denials as
 private insurance.Yet, Medicare has the largest percentage of  
 fraudulent
 payments of any insurer, BY FAR.But, hey, if it's the  
 government's
 responsibility, we're morally relieved of any personal  
 responsibility for
 those who suffer for a lack, right?

 Or, are you going to tell us that government can buy unlimited  
 health care
 for everyone?

 --
 From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com
 Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 4:59 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 And I guess because you know someone from Canada/Britain/France/ 
 Spain/
 etc that swears the healthcare is worse then they make it out to be
 and that the US is where everyone with money goes then it must be
 true. Let's all just ignore study after study that shows every  
 single
 first world country has it better than the US. Sure, I'll believe  
 Cuba
 is hiding the real story. What about the other 30+ countries that  
 have
 better healthcare at a lower GDP cost? Are they lying too?

 -Matt






 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike]

This little historical item says a lot about this subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[Brad Belton]

Matt's not in the business anymore?  News to me.  I thought he was with
Rapid or Ring something or another?  Not anymore?  If true, that really is
interesting...


Brad

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of rwf
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:50 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

Matt-

Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.

When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more active.

Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I understand
you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of us still are.

 

I even made a filter but you keep slipping through.

 

 





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[Michael Baird]

Agreed, it's long since ceased to be a debate anyway and turned into a 
propaganda session.

Regards
Michael Baird
 Matt-

 Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.

 When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more active.

 Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I understand
 you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of us still are.

  

 I even made a filter but you keep slipping through.

  

  



 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 9, 2009, at 9:50 AM, rwf wrote:

 Matt-

 Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.

It is not my debate. I believe the list was discussing this for at  
least 3 days before I made my first post.

 When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more active.

I'll take that as a compliment.

 Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I  
 understand
 you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of us still are.

I suspect the majority of us are here for discussion regarding WISP  
related issues. Matt Larsen recently posted on the relevance of the  
discussion to WISPs. I can't speak to your incorrect understanding  
regarding my activity in this industry.

-Matt



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[Matt Liotta]

I am not longer with Rapid Link/One Ring as an employee, but I have  
not left the business. Ralph likes to speak out of turn.

-Matt

On Dec 9, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Brad Belton wrote:

 Matt's not in the business anymore?  News to me.  I thought he was  
 with
 Rapid or Ring something or another?  Not anymore?  If true, that  
 really is
 interesting...


 Brad

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of rwf
 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:50 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

 Matt-

 Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.

 When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more active.

 Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I  
 understand
 you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of us still are.



 I even made a filter but you keep slipping through.







 
 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 

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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[Robert West]

Propaganda? -insurance bad- What do you -insurance bad- mean by -insurance
bad- propaganda?  -insurance bad- It's not like -insurance bad- we're using
-insurance bad- subliminal messages -insurance bad- or anything.  -insurance
bad-

Bob-

-insurance bad-

-insurance bad-

-insurance bad-



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Michael Baird
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 10:00 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

Agreed, it's long since ceased to be a debate anyway and turned into a 
propaganda session.

Regards
Michael Baird
 Matt-

 Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.

 When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more active.

 Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I
understand
 you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of us still are.

  

 I even made a filter but you keep slipping through.

  

  






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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[Tom DeReggi]

MMmm... What does Hotel California and Wireless Execs have in common?  you 
can check in, but you can never leave :-)

Sounds like Matt is saying he still has vested interest to stay involved in 
RL/OR to protect his investment revenue.

Matt, would you mind clarifying.When you said... have not the left the 
business, did you mean

1) Have not left OneRing/RapidLink, and are involved in a non-employee 
capacity.
or that
2) Have not left the Wireless Industry.

When you said...  I cant talk about it, did you mean

1) You cant talk about your status at OneRing/RapidLink
or that
2) You cant talk about what you are doing now..

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest


I am not longer with Rapid Link/One Ring as an employee, but I have
 not left the business. Ralph likes to speak out of turn.

 -Matt

 On Dec 9, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Brad Belton wrote:

 Matt's not in the business anymore?  News to me.  I thought he was
 with
 Rapid or Ring something or another?  Not anymore?  If true, that
 really is
 interesting...


 Brad

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of rwf
 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:50 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

 Matt-

 Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.

 When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more active.

 Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I
 understand
 you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of us still are.



 I even made a filter but you keep slipping through.







 
 
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 Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
 Checked by AVG.
 Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 
 5/15/2009 6:16 AM

 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[Patrick Leary]

Wireless denizens never die, we just attenuate away into oblivion. 


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 2:02 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

MMmm... What does Hotel California and Wireless Execs have in common?
you can check in, but you can never leave :-)

Sounds like Matt is saying he still has vested interest to stay involved
in RL/OR to protect his investment revenue.

Matt, would you mind clarifying.When you said... have not the left
the business, did you mean

1) Have not left OneRing/RapidLink, and are involved in a non-employee
capacity.
or that
2) Have not left the Wireless Industry.

When you said...  I cant talk about it, did you mean

1) You cant talk about your status at OneRing/RapidLink or that
2) You cant talk about what you are doing now..

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest


I am not longer with Rapid Link/One Ring as an employee, but I have
 not left the business. Ralph likes to speak out of turn.

 -Matt

 On Dec 9, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Brad Belton wrote:

 Matt's not in the business anymore?  News to me.  I thought he was
 with
 Rapid or Ring something or another?  Not anymore?  If true, that
 really is
 interesting...


 Brad

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of rwf
 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:50 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

 Matt-

 Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.

 When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more active.

 Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I
 understand
 you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of us still are.



 I even made a filter but you keep slipping through.










 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/



 

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 Checked by AVG.
 Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date: 
 5/15/2009 6:16 AM

 





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[MDK]

LOL, come on Patrick, you're not attenuated yet.Though as I recall, you 
probably wanted to attenuate me a little when we got into serious verbal 
combat over whether or not residential wireless was even an option. Of 
course that was... What?   2001? You so ticked me off I had to prove you 
wrong.   I did :)



--
From: Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 2:11 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

 Wireless denizens never die, we just attenuate away into oblivion.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 2:02 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

 MMmm... What does Hotel California and Wireless Execs have in common?
 you can check in, but you can never leave :-)

 Sounds like Matt is saying he still has vested interest to stay involved
 in RL/OR to protect his investment revenue.

 Matt, would you mind clarifying.When you said... have not the left
 the business, did you mean

 1) Have not left OneRing/RapidLink, and are involved in a non-employee
 capacity.
 or that
 2) Have not left the Wireless Industry.

 When you said...  I cant talk about it, did you mean

 1) You cant talk about your status at OneRing/RapidLink or that
 2) You cant talk about what you are doing now..

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 10:07 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest


I am not longer with Rapid Link/One Ring as an employee, but I have
 not left the business. Ralph likes to speak out of turn.

 -Matt

 On Dec 9, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Brad Belton wrote:

 Matt's not in the business anymore?  News to me.  I thought he was
 with
 Rapid or Ring something or another?  Not anymore?  If true, that
 really is
 interesting...


 Brad

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of rwf
 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:50 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

 Matt-

 Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.

 When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more active.

 Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I
 understand
 you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of us still are.



 I even made a filter but you keep slipping through.








 
 
 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/

 
 
 

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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[RickG]

At what frequency? :P

On Wed, Dec 9, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Patrick Leary ple...@apertonet.com wrote:

 Wireless denizens never die, we just attenuate away into oblivion.


 Patrick Leary
 Aperto Networks
 813.426.4230 mobile

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 2:02 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

 MMmm... What does Hotel California and Wireless Execs have in common?
 you can check in, but you can never leave :-)

 Sounds like Matt is saying he still has vested interest to stay involved
 in RL/OR to protect his investment revenue.

 Matt, would you mind clarifying.When you said... have not the left
 the business, did you mean

 1) Have not left OneRing/RapidLink, and are involved in a non-employee
 capacity.
 or that
 2) Have not left the Wireless Industry.

 When you said...  I cant talk about it, did you mean

 1) You cant talk about your status at OneRing/RapidLink or that
 2) You cant talk about what you are doing now..

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 10:07 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest


 I am not longer with Rapid Link/One Ring as an employee, but I have
  not left the business. Ralph likes to speak out of turn.
 
  -Matt
 
  On Dec 9, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Brad Belton wrote:
 
  Matt's not in the business anymore?  News to me.  I thought he was
  with
  Rapid or Ring something or another?  Not anymore?  If true, that
  really is
  interesting...
 
 
  Brad
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
  On
  Behalf Of rwf
  Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:50 AM
  To: 'WISPA General List'
  Subject: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest
 
  Matt-
 
  Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.
 
  When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more active.
 
  Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I
  understand
  you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of us still are.
 
 
 
  I even made a filter but you keep slipping through.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
  
 
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  Checked by AVG.
  Version: 7.5.560 / Virus Database: 270.12.26/2116 - Release Date:
  5/15/2009 6:16 AM
 
 



 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

[rwf]

Oh?
So you are still a WISP then?
What is your company called?


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 10:08 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

I am not longer with Rapid Link/One Ring as an employee, but I have  
not left the business. Ralph likes to speak out of turn.

-Matt

On Dec 9, 2009, at 9:57 AM, Brad Belton wrote:

 Matt's not in the business anymore?  News to me.  I thought he was  
 with
 Rapid or Ring something or another?  Not anymore?  If true, that  
 really is
 interesting...


 Brad

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of rwf
 Sent: Wednesday, December 09, 2009 8:50 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: [WISPA] Insurance thread- Matt and the rest

 Matt-

 Please consider taking your insurance debate to another list.

 When you pop in, you just make the discussion hotter and more active.

 Some of us are here for wireless discussion, and Matt, although I  
 understand
 you are no longer actively in the business, the rest of us still are.



 I even made a filter but you keep slipping through.









 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Owen Harrell]

I keep reading what everyone is saying about government and
insurance, but I don't really believe you. Most of you say that you are
against the government getting involved in health care, that it is a
Socialist idea. What I haven't heard is any of you saying you wanted to stop
Medicare or Social Security or shut down the VA hospitals. Why not? These
are Socialist programs. These are Government run programs with no choice to
purchase it from the private market. Why haven't you said to stop those
programs? You say you believe in the Free Market, but I do not see you
asking to stop regulating electricity, or natural gas. Only if we let these
companies truly charge whatever they wanted to would it be a free market.
Most of you claim to be Christians, but you do not really believe what you
preach. A true Christian always wants to help those that are less fortunate
than yourself. Well I believe that includes health care. Or does it mean you
can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I have had
insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer, some has
been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every year.
However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other nations. We
live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean National
Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like me asking
you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to either say
no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as perfect, but if
you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never come close
to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the government
will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know these
things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet? Last I
knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a part of
it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start over.
Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the congressmen
you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the beginning,
and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my two cents
on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the right to
disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I guess if
you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left, hurry and
decide before there is only one left.

Owen Harrell
 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Paul C Diem
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of opportunity and
became the land of guarantees.

Paul C Diem
pcd...@foxvalley.net 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


Oh boy, here we go.

Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity, 
transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our 
own direction is all that God has given us.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not 
 truly
 run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
 access
 to health care?


 I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue 
 of health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved 
 by the free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human 
 right. No person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about 
 things like money when it comes to basic health and wellness. The 
 fact that even one American (or anyone else really, but this is a 
 US-centric list) doesn't, in my mind represents a deep-rooted failure 
 of the free market, and of basic human kindness and compassion.

 David Smith
 MVN.net


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 --
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 http://signup.wispa.org/




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

 not think so. That would be like  
 me asking
 you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to  
 either say
 no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as  
 perfect, but if
 you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never  
 come close
 to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the  
 government
 will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know  
 these
 things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet?  
 Last I
 knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a  
 part of
 it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start  
 over.
 Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the  
 congressmen
 you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the  
 beginning,
 and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my  
 two cents
 on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the  
 right to
 disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I  
 guess if
 you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left,  
 hurry and
 decide before there is only one left.

 Owen Harrell


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Paul C Diem
 Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of  
 opportunity and
 became the land of guarantees.

 Paul C Diem
 pcd...@foxvalley.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Oh boy, here we go.

 Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity,
 transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

 NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to  
 make our
 own direction is all that God has given us.
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not
 truly
 run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even  
 after all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
 access
 to health care?


 I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the  
 issue
 of health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved
 by the free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental  
 human
 right. No person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry  
 about
 things like money when it comes to basic health and wellness. The
 fact that even one American (or anyone else really, but this is a
 US-centric list) doesn't, in my mind represents a deep-rooted  
 failure
 of the free market, and of basic human kindness and compassion.

 David Smith
 MVN.net


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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[os10rules]

  
 market.
 Most of you claim to be Christians, but you do not really believe  
 what you
 preach. A true Christian always wants to help those that are less  
 fortunate
 than yourself. Well I believe that includes health care. Or does it  
 mean you
 can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I  
 have had
 insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer,  
 some has
 been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every  
 year.
 However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other  
 nations. We
 live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean  
 National
 Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like  
 me asking
 you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to  
 either say
 no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as  
 perfect, but if
 you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never  
 come close
 to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the  
 government
 will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know  
 these
 things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet?  
 Last I
 knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a  
 part of
 it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start  
 over.
 Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the  
 congressmen
 you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the  
 beginning,
 and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my  
 two cents
 on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the  
 right to
 disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I  
 guess if
 you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left,  
 hurry and
 decide before there is only one left.
 
 Owen Harrell
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Paul C Diem
 Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
 Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of  
 opportunity and
 became the land of guarantees.
 
 Paul C Diem
 pcd...@foxvalley.net
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
 
 Oh boy, here we go.
 
 Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity,
 transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.
 
 NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to  
 make our
 own direction is all that God has given us.
 marlon
 
 - Original Message -
 From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
 
 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not
 truly
 run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even  
 after all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
 access
 to health care?
 
 
 I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the  
 issue
 of health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved
 by the free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental  
 human
 right. No person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry  
 about
 things like money when it comes to basic health and wellness. The
 fact that even one American (or anyone else really, but this is a
 US-centric list) doesn't, in my mind represents a deep-rooted  
 failure
 of the free market, and of basic human kindness and compassion.
 
 David Smith
 MVN.net
 
 
 --
 --
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

Personal responsibility?  If they choose to buy a 73 LCD TV and a brand new 
Chrysler instead of budgeting for their health, but then run to the ER when 
a kid has a runny nose, they deserve the however many thousand dollar bill 
coming to them.

Advocate and persuade, but don't force.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:19 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 20:15, Josh Luthman 
 j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote:

 No, not that simple...


 This I gotta hear. How do you justify not providing health care to any 
 human
 that needs it?

 David Smith
 MVN.net


 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

Yeah, the VA's healthcare..  there's a system we all should want.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:24 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 Why not?  Just extend what is already in place with Medicare and enroll
 people region by region.  While at it, lump the other government single
 payer plans into it like the VA and Railroad Workers.

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:15 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 No, not that simple...

 On 12/7/09, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote:
 Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
 industry we might have left) who puts profit in healthcare.  As you
 stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with 
 anything
 they can find to do that.

 Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
 working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying
 for
 it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white
 north
 said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
 taxes.

 Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.







 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Tom Sharples
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance,
 as

 currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
 services under the model of broadband insurance. Under that model, your
 customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
 broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access.
 Or

 how about housing insurance instead of monthly rent. You pay the
 landlord
 a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he
 oversubscribes
 a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
 pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
 Kaiser that's the system we have now.

 What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
 healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that 
 only
 serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
 consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
 lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical
 pratices,
 and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription
 drugs
 to US consumers.

 Tom S.

 - Original Message -
 From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly
 run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after 
 all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
 access
 to health care?

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith d...@mvn.net wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote:

  The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our 
  business...
  Now

 imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
 don't
  we?


 There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
 medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have
 better
 access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the
 free
 market has failed miserably.

 David Smith
 MVN.net





 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

What's great about the commercial insurers, is that if you're not happy with 
how one company is ran, you can move to another.  Just like if someone 
doesn't like Comcast's customer service or Verizon's service options, they 
can choose me for service.  Just think if Qwest was everyone's sole Internet 
provider.  There are no other commercial based first world countries I can 
move to (rescinding my US citizenship) to free myself of the burden of 
socialist healthcare.

Having private options in a public world means you're paying for your 
healthcare twice.  It's like being forced to have Qwest DSL, but electing to 
have FiOS instead.  You're paying for 2 Internet services, one great and the 
other not.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:57 PM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 I'd like to make a quick comment about single payer.

 Its generally painted as being a great socialist evil in the US.

 That's not quite true, although there are bound to be instances where its
 abused, just like there are lots of instances where commercial insurers 
 deny
 coverage or limit treatment options. It is often said that single payer
 means you have no treatment options and your choice of providers is 
 limited.

 Not true here. In fact, no even close. I had a brush with prostate cancer
 three years ago. I did the normal research we all would, picked out the
 treatment I thought I wanted, and picked out the surgeon I wanted just 
 like
 you hopefully could. Went to Toronto for a consult with the Head of 
 Urology
 at Toronto General who has one of the best reps in the Province, we worked
 out a treatment plan, I went to Toronto for surgery performed by him and
 I've had a clean bill of health for the last couple of years. I had my
 choice of practitioners, although some would require longer waits than
 others, had my choice of hospitals, and had my choice of treatments. Hard 
 to
 ask for much more really.

 The other reality is that single payer takes some pressure off treatment 
 by
 next-quarter profit numbers, where the insurers have to answer to their
 shareholders on a very short-term basis. Insurance companies are after all
 in business to make money, and western business culture demands great
 numbers month after month, quarter after quarter and year after year.

 As a result, no private insurance company is in a position to take the 
 long
 view about anything. If they did their CEO would get lynched.

 One of the huge benefits of single payer that often gets lost in the
 rhetoric is the ability for the payer (the government) to take a much 
 longer
 view of benefits to public health.

 Let me give you another personal example. I've had a serious weight 
 problem
 since I was a kid. Got to the point five years ago that I weighed 300 lbs,
 and I'm only 5' 8. Tried all the diets etc, but got heavier every year.

 I went looking for alternatives, and found a pretty good one with a
 bariatric surgery program with the Centres for Laparoscopic Obesity 
 Surgery
 run by Dr. Rutledge and available in a number of centres in the US. Very
 good reputation, lower risks than normal and terrific five year results 
 for
 taking weight off and keeping it off.

 There was no equivalent program available at the time in Ontario. They are
 working hard to create one now, but it takes time.

 So I worked with my GP, and we submitted an application to OHIP (Ontario
 Hospital Insurance Plan), the single payer for the province. Detailed what
 the problem was, what the future health risks were, what the surgery was
 going to cost and what we expected to gain from it.

 Took a bit to get it approved, but approve it they did because of the
 typical $2M plus lifetime cost of a patient with morbid obesity. Diabetes,
 cardiac issues etc.

 Had the surgery, lost nearly 150 lbs and I've now been stable at 155 for
 coming up on four years. Pretty damn cool.

 Went for the surgery in Michigan at Bay City. Caught a fairly unpleasant
 case of pneumonia in the hospital, so ended up with a ten days longer than
 planned stay. OHIP covered everything. No deductable at all. Came to
 $42,000US which isn't chump change, but my quality of life is immeasurably
 higher now.

 The point is, about 70% of US patients are denied coverage from their
 insurers for this procedure. Most have to dig up the $17,000 base cost out
 of their hip pockets, or do without and become a huge burden later due to
 very high future costs down the road. Not to mention shortened lives, 
 lousy
 quality of life and so forth.

 Single payer can mean better opportunities for preventative care at all
 levels, not just checkups at your GP. For one I'm very grateful, it made a
 big difference to my life.

 George

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

Well haven't the NTIA and RUS been excellent examples of how quickly 
government can take a program that already exists and expand it to more 
people?  It'll take them 1 year from the President's pen to spending the 
money on a program they already had.

I can't wait until they do that with healthcare!


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:37 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 So is food an absolute necessity.

 Does this mean we should have a single farmer system run by the 
 government?

 Maybe we should have a single ISP system, run by the government?   Single
 car maker, run by the government?Single housing contractor, run by
 Congress?Single clothing maker, the federal clothing agency?

 Come on.   You just can't go there, can you?Well, some people would.
 They view government as holy and perfect, and just have a religious faith 
 in
 it.The rest of us live in the real world and it would seem that given 
 a
 few minutes of thought,  it makes less than no sense to have the 
 government
 run health care.

 Medicare?Please.Don't even dream of such nonsense.

 Medicare reimburses doctors, hospitals, etc, somewhere between 10 and 60% 
 of
 the COST of what people who are on medicare actually get.The rest of 
 us
 who actually PAY are paying to subsidize them.

 If everyone were transferred to Medicare, it would take somewhere between 
 90
 and 270 days for almost every hospital, doctor's office, etc, to either go
 bankrupt or close voluntarily. At the rates at which Mecicare pays, 
 the
 best doctor you could get would be an email conference with some guy in
 India who collects $3 per consult.

 It is NOT an option.

 Frankly, for those of you want a single payer system...   Could you tell 
 the
 rest of us what experience you have with a federal agency that has so
 inspired you with confidence over their efficiency, responsiveness, 
 wisdom,
 and fantastic ability, that you stood in awe and said I want them in 
 charge
 of my life! And, not only did that, but in your mind, completely made
 up for the Postal service, the IRS, EPA, and all the other alphabet soup
 which are stunning examples of how to be wrong, wasteful, stupid and
 irresponsible, overbearing, abusive, rude, power-trip seekers, and yet 
 never
 get fired?

 If that hasn't happened to you, then what sort of fantasy do you indulge 
 in,
 that makes you think the government is just so darn good at running stuff?
 Please provide an example of how the federal government is such a 
 fantastic
 administrator of our money, while you're at it...

 I have just GOT to know where these fantasies... Or, maybe they are real
 life experiences - the likes of which I have never witnessed, read about,
 heard about, seen, or experienced personally...   Come from, that so 
 inspire
 people to put their life in the hands of Congress.

 My experience says I'd rather do surgery on myself.



 --
 From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly
 run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after 
 all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
 access
 to health care?


 I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue of
 health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved by the
 free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human right. No
 person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about things like
 money when it comes to basic health and wellness. The fact that even 
 one
 American (or anyone else really, but this is a US-centric list) doesn't,
 in
 my mind represents a deep-rooted failure of the free market, and of basic
 human kindness and compassion.

 David Smith
 MVN.net




 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

I wonder if the people that did that report are from the University of East 
Anglia.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Blake Bowers bbow...@mozarks.com
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:49 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 Lets get our fact straight.

 The WHO report that you are referencing that puts us
 at 37 is also reported to have a number of flaws.

 And Cuba on that report is actually lower than the US, at #39.

 http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

 Canada at 30 is laughable - as evidenced by the daily
 bus trips made in to the US for people to pay to see
 a doctor, versus waiting on the Canadian health care
 system.

 http://www.healthandsharing.com/21/articledetail

 has some interesting facts, I really like the one about the
 the member of the Canadian Parliment, who when faced with
 cancer jumped ship on the Canadian health care system, to seek
 care in the US.

 And what country is the leader in medical research and innovation
 other (moreso) than the US?  Cite, please.






 Don't take your organs to heaven,
 heaven knows we need them down here!
 Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:22 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Actually, most of the advancement now is coming from other countries.
 We're
 behind but since we live in it, we can't smell it.  We rank near number 
 37
 in health care, that certainly is not being a leader.  Even our friend,
 Cuba
 ranks higher than we do.  Shameful for a country as well off as we are.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Blake Bowers
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:34 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 With no profit we would have no advancement.


 Don't take your organs to heaven,
 heaven knows we need them down here!
 Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
 To: 'Tom Sharples' tsharp...@qorvus.com; 'WISPA General List'
 wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:13 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
 industry we might have left) who puts profit in healthcare.  As you
 stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with
 anything
 they can find to do that.

 Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
 working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying
 for
 it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white
 north
 said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
 taxes.

 Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.




 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 09:22, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote:

 What's great about the commercial insurers, is that if you're not happy
 with
 how one company is ran, you can move to another.


Except that you often can't, thanks to the weasel words pre-existing
conditions. And even if you do, insurance companies love rescission. Yeah,
you can definitely sign up and they'll take your money, but whether they'll
actually pay for your much-needed health care is pretty much a crapshoot.

Health insurance is fundamentally broken. At this point it exists solely to
drain money and resources from patients and doctors alike. Patients pay more
than they can afford for insurance that may or may not actually be there
when they need it; doctors are forced to hire large billing staffs to chase
after the insurance companies, who will take basically any excuse not to pay
claims. It raises everyone's costs and provides little or no real value to
anyone involved (except the insurance companies themselves).

I'm sure most of us have built a network on some unproven technology that
looked good on the surface, but when it was deployed, it turned out to be a
horrible failure, and we had to spend time and effort to replace and
rebuild. (I won't name vendors but I know I've done this at least once.)
Health insurance is just like this - it sounds good, but this specific
implementation has failed completely; it's time to pull it out and start
over.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

I support a system for people that truly cannot afford it themselves.  Just 
pulling a number out of thin air, but I'd imagine that's only 5% of the 
population.  My parents crested $40k in annual income not long ago, yet we 
(family of 5) always had everything we needed to live and grow, including 
healthcare.  I believe Illinois recently expanded their income requirements 
for the low income government health program to $75k for a family of 4. 
Excuse me?

In going a little bit off topic (Hey, this conversation is relevant to any 
business, regardless of it going anywhere or not.) Why can't this and most 
federal programs be done on a state level?  I believe Massachusetts has had 
government healthcare for a couple years.  Let them have it and let Texas 
not!  Let Massachusetts have government social security, welfare, etc. and 
Texas not!  (No, I don't live in Texas, but it's a largely populated 
conservative state.)


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:30 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Um, thats what happens now. I pay mine and you pay yours. So, wheres the
 problem? Oh ya, there are those that cant or choose not to. So now we 
 want
 to force them to? And I thought this country was founded on freedom?


 The key is those that can't. I see it as a humanitarian cause to provide
 essential human-welfare services for those who are, through no fault of
 their own, unable to attain them otherwise. You're welcome to disagree; I
 genuinely don't understand the logic there, but to each his own.

 David Smith
 MVN.net


 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Brad Belton]

Sure sign of a person losing his argument...personal attacks.  

Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:08 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


On Dec 8, 2009, at 10:22 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

 What's great about the commercial insurers, is that if you're not  
 happy with
 how one company is ran, you can move to another.  Just like if someone
 doesn't like Comcast's customer service or Verizon's service  
 options, they
 can choose me for service.  Just think if Qwest was everyone's sole  
 Internet
 provider.  There are no other commercial based first world countries  
 I can
 move to (rescinding my US citizenship) to free myself of the burden of
 socialist healthcare.

Actually, that is not true. In many markets there is no choice.  
Further, since most people depend on their employer for insurance they  
can't change healthcare providers without changing jobs. And, even if  
they wanted to change healthcare providers they may not be able to  
because of a preexisting condition e.g. pregnancy.

You are what is wrong with the healthcare debate. Get informed or get  
out.

-Matt





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Jeff Broadwick wrote:

 Not sure where you got this info Matt.  I've seen just the  
 opposite.  In
 Mississippi they had lost most of the OB/GYN docs.  They are now  
 getting
 what they need since they enacted tort reform.

You've seen or read the studies? Because the studies are very clear on  
this. Remember, exceptions don't prove the rule.

 The cost of malpractice, jury awards, and defensive medicine are  
 massive.

Indeed, but no better viable system of checks and balances in  
healthcare has yet to emerge.

-Matt



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

So then we remove interstate restrictions and if California continues to 
regulate against the wishes of their citizens, they can move elsewhere.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Jeff Broadwick jeffl...@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:04 AM
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 Not in some states Mike.  I think California only has 4-6 insurance
 companies that are allowed to sell policies in the state.  That's one of 
 the
 big problems, along with individual state mandates about what MUST be in
 those polices.


 Regards,

 Jeff


 Jeff Broadwick
 ImageStream
 800-813-5123 x106 (US/Can)
 +1 574-935-8484 x106  (Int'l)

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:23 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 What's great about the commercial insurers, is that if you're not happy 
 with
 how one company is ran, you can move to another.  Just like if someone
 doesn't like Comcast's customer service or Verizon's service options, they
 can choose me for service.  Just think if Qwest was everyone's sole 
 Internet
 provider.  There are no other commercial based first world countries I can
 move to (rescinding my US citizenship) to free myself of the burden of
 socialist healthcare.

 Having private options in a public world means you're paying for your
 healthcare twice.  It's like being forced to have Qwest DSL, but electing 
 to
 have FiOS instead.  You're paying for 2 Internet services, one great and 
 the
 other not.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:57 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 I'd like to make a quick comment about single payer.

 Its generally painted as being a great socialist evil in the US.

 That's not quite true, although there are bound to be instances where
 its abused, just like there are lots of instances where commercial
 insurers deny coverage or limit treatment options. It is often said
 that single payer means you have no treatment options and your choice
 of providers is limited.

 Not true here. In fact, no even close. I had a brush with prostate
 cancer three years ago. I did the normal research we all would, picked
 out the treatment I thought I wanted, and picked out the surgeon I
 wanted just like you hopefully could. Went to Toronto for a consult
 with the Head of Urology at Toronto General who has one of the best
 reps in the Province, we worked out a treatment plan, I went to
 Toronto for surgery performed by him and I've had a clean bill of
 health for the last couple of years. I had my choice of practitioners,
 although some would require longer waits than others, had my choice of
 hospitals, and had my choice of treatments. Hard to ask for much more
 really.

 The other reality is that single payer takes some pressure off
 treatment by next-quarter profit numbers, where the insurers have to
 answer to their shareholders on a very short-term basis. Insurance
 companies are after all in business to make money, and western
 business culture demands great numbers month after month, quarter
 after quarter and year after year.

 As a result, no private insurance company is in a position to take the
 long view about anything. If they did their CEO would get lynched.

 One of the huge benefits of single payer that often gets lost in the
 rhetoric is the ability for the payer (the government) to take a much
 longer view of benefits to public health.

 Let me give you another personal example. I've had a serious weight
 problem since I was a kid. Got to the point five years ago that I
 weighed 300 lbs, and I'm only 5' 8. Tried all the diets etc, but got
 heavier every year.

 I went looking for alternatives, and found a pretty good one with a
 bariatric surgery program with the Centres for Laparoscopic Obesity
 Surgery run by Dr. Rutledge and available in a number of centres in
 the US. Very good reputation, lower risks than normal and terrific
 five year results for taking weight off and keeping it off.

 There was no equivalent program available at the time in Ontario. They
 are working hard to create one now, but it takes time.

 So I worked with my GP, and we submitted an application to OHIP
 (Ontario Hospital Insurance Plan), the single payer for the province.
 Detailed what the problem was, what the future health risks were, what
 the surgery was going to cost and what we expected to gain from it.

 Took a bit to get it approved, but approve it they did because of the
 typical $2M plus lifetime cost of a patient with morbid obesity.
 Diabetes

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Brad Belton]

Agreed.  Tort reform will help save healthcare costs and enable more doctors
to practice their trade.  My doctor just shut down his practice of 20-30
years and let his entire staff go due to the cost of business growing out of
control.

Brad


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:11 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 You've got that one wrong. Studies have shown that in states where tort
reform was enacted there was no effect on the number of doctors or the cost
of healthcare. Specifically to your point, those states with tort reform did
NOT see a reduction in malpractice insurance premiums.

-Matt

Not sure where you got this info Matt.  I've seen just the opposite.  In
Mississippi they had lost most of the OB/GYN docs.  They are now getting
what they need since they enacted tort reform.

The cost of malpractice, jury awards, and defensive medicine are massive.  


Regards,

Jeff


Jeff Broadwick
ImageStream
800-813-5123 x106 (US/Can)
+1 574-935-8484 x106  (Int'l)

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 11:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


On Dec 8, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Mike wrote:

 The first is to allow people to die with dignity.  I saw something on 
 60 minutes recently where a trauma doctor was talking about how 60% of 
 people spend the last few days of their lives in intensive care at 
 great expense while compassionate medical personnel pull out all stops 
 to prolong their lives.  When is enough, enough?  I have a living will 
 and will come back to haunt anyone not respecting my wishes.

Having watched two relatives die over the course of days being starved to
death as part of a humane end of life treatment I understand very well
that our current system needs euthanasia reform. The fact that it would save
money is even better, but it is not about the money.

 The second is a big one, tort reform.  I don't know exactly how we can 
 get a handle on that one, but the frivolous lawsuits are adding an 
 immense burden to health care costs.  OBGYN doctors are leaving the 
 field because they can't afford malpractice insurance.  Those who stay 
 are charging ever greater fees in order to cover their premiums.  And 
 that is only one branch of medicine.  Many others suffer from the same 
 dynamics.

You've got that one wrong. Studies have shown that in states where tort
reform was enacted there was no effect on the number of doctors or the cost
of healthcare. Specifically to your point, those states with tort reform did
NOT see a reduction in malpractice insurance premiums.

-Matt





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 11:18 AM, Brad Belton wrote:

 Agreed.  Tort reform will help save healthcare costs and enable more  
 doctors
 to practice their trade.  My doctor just shut down his practice of  
 20-30
 years and let his entire staff go due to the cost of business  
 growing out of
 control.

Go get his income statement and you will find where the costs where.  
It wasn't malpractice that drove him out of business.

-Matt




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 11:32 AM, Jeff Broadwick wrote:

 From the NY Times:

 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/us/05doctors.html?_r=1

The article certainly shares some facts and anecdotes regarding the  
2003 Texas tort reform. However, it doesn't point to any research that  
ties cause and effect. What I find interesting about the Texas case is  
that Texas has one of the best and most thorough databases regarding  
insurance claims. The idea behind the 2003 tort reform was to stop the  
excess malpractice problems. However, we now know there wasn't  
actually a problem. See 
http://www.utexas.edu/law/academics/centers/clcjm/stability_release.pdf 
, which references a study released in 2005 that found, Recent spikes  
in medical malpractice premiums in Texas were not caused by rising  
payouts on claims or rising jury verdicts. The study looked at data  
between 1988 and 2002 i.e. before the 2003 tort reform. Additionally,  
the proponents of tort reform claim it will lower insurance costs. Yet  
in Texas insurance premiums rose the 3rd fastest nationally.

Unfortunately, tort reform is a red herring when it comes to  
healthcare costs. The estimates right now are that jury awards for  
malpractice cost about $3.6 billion annually, while we spend $2.3  
trillion annually. That would mean jury awards count for .001% of our  
healthcare costs. Some would argue there is more than jury awards to  
malpractice cost. To that end, a 2004 report by the Congressional  
Budget Office said medical malpractice makes up only 2 percent of U.S.  
health spending. Even “significant reductions” would do little to curb  
health-care expenses, it concluded.

Then there is insurance giant WellPoint that released its own report  
detailing what it thought was the source of increased costs, which  
doesn't conclude malpractice is a major issue. See 
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS137490+27-May-2009+PRN20090527 
.

-Matt





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Michael Baird]

  From the Washington Post also.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/30/AR2009073002816.html

Regards
Michael Baird
 From the NY Times:

 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/us/05doctors.html?_r=1 


 Regards,

 Jeff


 Jeff Broadwick
 ImageStream
 800-813-5123 x106 (US/Can)
 +1 574-935-8484 x106  (Int'l)

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Matt Liotta
 Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 11:16 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 On Dec 8, 2009, at 11:10 AM, Jeff Broadwick wrote:

   
 Not sure where you got this info Matt.  I've seen just the opposite.  
 In Mississippi they had lost most of the OB/GYN docs.  They are now 
 getting what they need since they enacted tort reform.

 
 You've seen or read the studies? Because the studies are very clear on this.
 Remember, exceptions don't prove the rule.

   
 The cost of malpractice, jury awards, and defensive medicine are 
 massive.

 
 Indeed, but no better viable system of checks and balances in healthcare has
 yet to emerge.

 -Matt


 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Andy Trimmell]

[Having private options in a public world means you're paying for your
healthcare twice.  It's like being forced to have Qwest DSL, but
electing to have FiOS instead.  You're paying for 2 Internet services,
one great and the other not.]

Kinda like when I was home schooled as a kid and my parents had to pay
school taxes for public school? Only makes sense that we'd again pay
twice for another public option.

Good analogy.




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Andy Trimmell wrote:

 Kinda like when I was home schooled as a kid and my parents had to pay
 school taxes for public school? Only makes sense that we'd again pay
 twice for another public option.

 Good analogy.

I don't think your parents had to pay twice. They could have sent you  
to public school. This why the analogy breaks down. A more reasonable  
analogy would be an existing public service that is augmented or  
replaced with a private one for personal reasons. Maybe owning a car  
when public transit is available. Or living in a gated community with  
security when there is a police force. Or having a bottled water  
service in addition to your regular water service. Or using a private  
toll bridge to shorten a trip as compared with using the public road.  
These are all examples of the private option being used because of  
personal circumstances even though a public option exists.

I personally would like to see something more like the post office.  
This is a public organization that is self-supported. Yet UPS and  
FedEx are viable companies offering a private choice. I like how  
online retailers have learned to mix and match the post office with  
UPS and FedEx to minimize their shipping costs and yet still get their  
products to consumers effectively.

-Matt



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

Heh, its still the land of opportunity - just for the wrong people (crooks,
criminals, politicians, lawyers, etc) :)

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 2:25 AM, Paul C Diem pcd...@foxvalley.net wrote:

 Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of opportunity and
 became the land of guarantees.

 Paul C Diem
 pcd...@foxvalley.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Oh boy, here we go.

 Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity,
 transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

 NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our
 own direction is all that God has given us.
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


  On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not
  truly
  run
  in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after
 all
  the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
  access
  to health care?
 
 
  I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue
  of health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved
  by the free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human
  right. No person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about
  things like money when it comes to basic health and wellness. The
  fact that even one American (or anyone else really, but this is a
  US-centric list) doesn't, in my mind represents a deep-rooted failure
  of the free market, and of basic human kindness and compassion.
 
  David Smith
  MVN.net
 
 
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  --
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Michael Baird]

The post office is bankrupt, not self supporting.
http://www.politicsdaily.com/2009/08/18/the-next-bankruptcy-the-u-s-postal-service/

Regards
Michael Baird
 On Dec 8, 2009, at 12:55 PM, Andy Trimmell wrote:

   
 Kinda like when I was home schooled as a kid and my parents had to pay
 school taxes for public school? Only makes sense that we'd again pay
 twice for another public option.

 Good analogy.

 
 I don't think your parents had to pay twice. They could have sent you  
 to public school. This why the analogy breaks down. A more reasonable  
 analogy would be an existing public service that is augmented or  
 replaced with a private one for personal reasons. Maybe owning a car  
 when public transit is available. Or living in a gated community with  
 security when there is a police force. Or having a bottled water  
 service in addition to your regular water service. Or using a private  
 toll bridge to shorten a trip as compared with using the public road.  
 These are all examples of the private option being used because of  
 personal circumstances even though a public option exists.

 I personally would like to see something more like the post office.  
 This is a public organization that is self-supported. Yet UPS and  
 FedEx are viable companies offering a private choice. I like how  
 online retailers have learned to mix and match the post office with  
 UPS and FedEx to minimize their shipping costs and yet still get their  
 products to consumers effectively.

 -Matt


 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

Well, this discussion is about what is coming , not what we have but to make
you happy - stop Medicare, Social Security, and shut down the VA hospitals!
VA patients would be much better served in the private sector with much less
waste.
Medicare  Social Security: The biggest pyramid scheme in history. Let me
keep invest in my retirement for myself.
Sheesh! Mankind made it without those programs before they existed why not
now?
-RickG

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Owen Harrell o...@essex1.com wrote:

I keep reading what everyone is saying about government and
 insurance, but I don't really believe you. Most of you say that you are
 against the government getting involved in health care, that it is a
 Socialist idea. What I haven't heard is any of you saying you wanted to
 stop
 Medicare or Social Security or shut down the VA hospitals. Why not? These
 are Socialist programs. These are Government run programs with no choice to
 purchase it from the private market. Why haven't you said to stop those
 programs? You say you believe in the Free Market, but I do not see you
 asking to stop regulating electricity, or natural gas. Only if we let these
 companies truly charge whatever they wanted to would it be a free market.
 Most of you claim to be Christians, but you do not really believe what you
 preach. A true Christian always wants to help those that are less fortunate
 than yourself. Well I believe that includes health care. Or does it mean
 you
 can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I have had
 insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer, some has
 been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every year.
 However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other nations.
 We
 live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean
 National
 Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like me
 asking
 you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to either say
 no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as perfect, but if
 you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never come close
 to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the government
 will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know these
 things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet? Last I
 knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a part of
 it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start over.
 Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the
 congressmen
 you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the beginning,
 and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my two cents
 on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the right to
 disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I guess if
 you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left, hurry and
 decide before there is only one left.

 Owen Harrell


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Paul C Diem
 Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of opportunity and
 became the land of guarantees.

 Paul C Diem
 pcd...@foxvalley.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Oh boy, here we go.

 Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity,
 transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

 NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our
 own direction is all that God has given us.
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


  On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not
  truly
  run
  in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after
 all
  the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
  access
  to health care?
 
 
  I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue
  of health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved
  by the free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human
  right. No person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about
  things like money when it comes to basic health and wellness. The
  fact that even one American (or anyone else really, but this is a
  US-centric list) doesn't, in my mind represents a deep-rooted failure
  of the free market, and of basic human kindness

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Jack Unger]

IMO, this thread is getting pretty far off track and is wasting both
time and WISPA resources. 

I respectfully request that everyone please consider the value in
getting back to work and releasing this list for more productive
WISP-focused usage. 

jack



RickG wrote:

  Well, this discussion is about what is coming , not what we have but to make
you happy - stop Medicare, Social Security, and shut down the VA hospitals!
VA patients would be much better served in the private sector with much less
waste.
Medicare  Social Security: The biggest pyramid scheme in history. Let me
keep invest in my retirement for myself.
Sheesh! Mankind made it without those programs before they existed why not
now?
-RickG

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Owen Harrell o...@essex1.com wrote:

  
  
   I keep reading what everyone is saying about government and
insurance, but I don't really believe you. Most of you say that you are
against the government getting involved in health care, that it is a
Socialist idea. What I haven't heard is any of you saying you wanted to
stop
Medicare or Social Security or shut down the VA hospitals. Why not? These
are Socialist programs. These are Government run programs with no choice to
purchase it from the private market. Why haven't you said to stop those
programs? You say you believe in the Free Market, but I do not see you
asking to stop regulating electricity, or natural gas. Only if we let these
companies truly charge whatever they wanted to would it be a free market.
Most of you claim to be Christians, but you do not really believe what you
preach. A true Christian always wants to help those that are less fortunate
than yourself. Well I believe that includes health care. Or does it mean
you
can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I have had
insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer, some has
been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every year.
However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other nations.
We
live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean
National
Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like me
asking
you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to either say
no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as perfect, but if
you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never come close
to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the government
will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know these
things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet? Last I
knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a part of
it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start over.
Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the
congressmen
you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the beginning,
and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my two cents
on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the right to
disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I guess if
you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left, hurry and
decide before there is only one left.

Owen Harrell


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Paul C Diem
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of opportunity and
became the land of guarantees.

Paul C Diem
pcd...@foxvalley.net

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


Oh boy, here we go.

Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity,
transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our
own direction is all that God has given us.
marlon

- Original Message -
From: "David E. Smith" d...@mvn.net
To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance




  On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

  
  
Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not
truly
run
in a "free market". It's "failure" is exactly due to this. Even after

  

all


  
the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
"access"
to health care?


  
  I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue
of health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved
by the free market - as far as I'm co

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

China - the land of human rights? The better questions is why they are
looking better financially.

On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com wrote:


 On Dec 8, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

  Our profit is what drives the medical research and inspiration to make
  something better.
 
 Actually, most medical RD is funded by the government. Further, even
 many of the corporate RD programs depend on government funding.

  The greatest profit based economy?  The USA, and we're doing quite
  well.
  The greatest government based economy?  We haven't seen them in 18
  years.
 
 You may want to check your facts. Unfortunately, China is looking much
 better financially than we are.

 -Matt




 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

Actually, the United States ranks number 37 in the world for the best
doctors and health care system.  Most Americans are under the impression
that we are number one in so many things but sadly we are way less than
number one in most everything.  The best doctors and healthcare system?
France and Italy.  Cuba actually has a very impressive health system and
many countries send their doctors there for training.  Again, sad but true.
Hiding ones head in the sand and ignoring what goes on outside our borders
is what we've been doing.  I know it's not competition, per se, but it
should at least be used as a measuring tool.  I'm not under any delusion
that we or myself are best in anything.  Keeps me moving.

Bob-

Is this the Insurance List?This is why politics should be a No-No.
It's 99% of the list now.

Bob-




-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:48 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

No kidding.  No profits no medical advancements.  Where do people go when
they seek the best doctors and health system in the world?  America.

Brad

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:15 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

No, not that simple...

On 12/7/09, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote:
 Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
 industry we might have left) who puts profit in healthcare.  As you
 stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
 they can find to do that.

 Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
 working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying
for
 it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white
north
 said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
 taxes.

 Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.







 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Tom Sharples
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance,
as

 currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
 services under the model of broadband insurance. Under that model, your
 customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
 broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access.
Or

 how about housing insurance instead of monthly rent. You pay the
landlord
 a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he
oversubscribes
 a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
 pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
 Kaiser that's the system we have now.

 What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
 healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only
 serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
 consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
 lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical
pratices,
 and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription
drugs
 to US consumers.

 Tom S.

 - Original Message -
 From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly
run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
 access
 to health care?

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith d...@mvn.net wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote:

  The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
  Now

 imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
 don't
  we?


 There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
 medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have
better
 access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the
free
 market has failed miserably.

 David Smith
 MVN.net






 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[jp]

I run a Maine WISP, and we use the state government choice health 
insurance. 

We feel providing health insurance is an important benefit to attracting 
and retaining quality workers of all ages, especially young ones with 
families. I idealogically disfavor our states plan, but it saved us 
money over the other choices, and we like our business to stay in the 
black a little bit, our decision to use it is a strict financial choice.

First, Maine has lots of older folks who come here to retire (and 
eventually die), and the young people tend to move out after high school 
or college because housing costs have grown and opportunity hasn't as 
much. Thus, we have a disproportionate of expensive to keep healthy 
citizens. Our state also has large areas that are economically 
disadvantaged, where recreational pharmaceuticals, marijuana, and 
Allen's coffee brandy are major economic players.

We also have a state goverment that bounces back and forth between 
independent centrist and leftist. Our state government is highly 
impressionable by lobbyists based on my broadband/telecom interactions 
with state government. Folks get elected because they are nice community 
oriented people, not because of political idealogy when it comes to 
local politics.

State regulation of insurance has meant that there are typically 2-3 
choices of insurance/hmo companies on the market, none of which are 
great deals. I don't understand all of it, but something in their 
regulations prevents more companies from providing insurance in Maine. 
This is not only for health insurance, but for automotive insurance as 
well.

So the state created this idealist governemnt health care option called 
dirigo, which is the state motto. It was going to do great things and 
save us lots of money and create more choices. But the regulations 
remained, and dirigo just has been a commerical insurnace company being 
the low bid operator, and the government provided some discounts and 
entitlements to go along with it, along with rebranding it as their own. 
Our insurance cards have both digiro and the underlying providers' name 
on it.

After about the first year of the plan, they were losing big money on 
it, so it was closed to most new applicants to prevent more money loss. 
Sort of a lose money on every customer, but make up for it with bulk 
like the dialup ISPs did in their heyday. That's why it doesn't have as 
many users as originally planned.

It continues to operate rebadging private health insurance, adding 
discounts, entitlements, etc.. and is paid for by a tax on private 
insurance. Something tells me this deters competition more than 
anything. It's only marginally cheaper, meaning it's costs are a year or 
two behind the market.

I would not call it a success. It's a government business failure that's 
kept alive by taxes. Nothing was innovative about it. Some credit is 
deserved for trying, but the implementation is what naysayers expected.


On Tue, Dec 08, 2009 at 11:08:09AM -0500, Jeff Broadwick wrote:
 The Massachusetts and Maine programs have blown through their budgets...I
 don't think Maine even signed up as many people as they expected. 
 
 
 Regards,
 
 Jeff
 
 
 Jeff Broadwick
 ImageStream
 800-813-5123 x106 (US/Can)
 +1 574-935-8484 x106  (Int'l)
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike Hammett
 Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:49 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
 I support a system for people that truly cannot afford it themselves.  Just
 pulling a number out of thin air, but I'd imagine that's only 5% of the
 population.  My parents crested $40k in annual income not long ago, yet we
 (family of 5) always had everything we needed to live and grow, including
 healthcare.  I believe Illinois recently expanded their income requirements
 for the low income government health program to $75k for a family of 4. 
 Excuse me?
 
 In going a little bit off topic (Hey, this conversation is relevant to any
 business, regardless of it going anywhere or not.) Why can't this and most
 federal programs be done on a state level?  I believe Massachusetts has had
 government healthcare for a couple years.  Let them have it and let Texas
 not!  Let Massachusetts have government social security, welfare, etc. and
 Texas not!  (No, I don't live in Texas, but it's a largely populated
 conservative state.)
 
 
 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
 --
 From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:30 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
  On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Um, thats what happens now. I pay mine and you pay yours. So, wheres 
  the problem? Oh ya, there are those that cant or choose not to. So 
  now we want to force

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

Hahahahaha!  I hope you got it on the first shot.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Bowers
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:28 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Just to break up the insurance thread a bit...

I shot my first turkey today.

It scared the crap out of everyone else in the frozen food section.






Don't take your organs to heaven, 
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today. 





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

A man who also speaks from the truth.  Thank you, Owen.  That was a lot of
words from you, brother!  You must really mean what ya say.

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Owen Harrell
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 7:32 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

I keep reading what everyone is saying about government and
insurance, but I don't really believe you. Most of you say that you are
against the government getting involved in health care, that it is a
Socialist idea. What I haven't heard is any of you saying you wanted to stop
Medicare or Social Security or shut down the VA hospitals. Why not? These
are Socialist programs. These are Government run programs with no choice to
purchase it from the private market. Why haven't you said to stop those
programs? You say you believe in the Free Market, but I do not see you
asking to stop regulating electricity, or natural gas. Only if we let these
companies truly charge whatever they wanted to would it be a free market.
Most of you claim to be Christians, but you do not really believe what you
preach. A true Christian always wants to help those that are less fortunate
than yourself. Well I believe that includes health care. Or does it mean you
can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I have had
insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer, some has
been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every year.
However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other nations. We
live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean National
Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like me asking
you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to either say
no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as perfect, but if
you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never come close
to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the government
will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know these
things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet? Last I
knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a part of
it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start over.
Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the congressmen
you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the beginning,
and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my two cents
on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the right to
disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I guess if
you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left, hurry and
decide before there is only one left.

Owen Harrell
 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Paul C Diem
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of opportunity and
became the land of guarantees.

Paul C Diem
pcd...@foxvalley.net 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


Oh boy, here we go.

Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity, 
transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our 
own direction is all that God has given us.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not 
 truly
 run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
 access
 to health care?


 I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue 
 of health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved 
 by the free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human 
 right. No person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about 
 things like money when it comes to basic health and wellness. The 
 fact that even one American (or anyone else really, but this is a 
 US-centric list) doesn't, in my mind represents a deep-rooted failure 
 of the free market, and of basic human kindness and compassion.

 David Smith
 MVN.net


 --
 --
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

You got it right on that.  The position that I'm not gonna help these
people who think they are entitled argument is foolish because yes, they
may get it for free when they don't work for it but on the back end they are
already costing you and you can't see that.

I do a lot of work for the local doctors offices.  Anytime that I go there
the waiting rooms are full of people who possess a medical card.  Welfare.
Free, socialist healthcare.  They have it and they use it.  Me, a few weeks
ago the wife dropped a log on her foot on the way to the fireplace.  Smashed
it really bad.  Didn't matter that it was bleeding, cut (barefoot, go figure
but who am I to say anything.  sheeesh!) black and blue, a real mess.
She refused to go to the hospital because it would cost us money.  The
co-pay and deductible and all that I bet would have been close to 500 bucks
all said and done.  

You see, we ALREADY have what some are against but those of us paying for it
can't use it ourselves because we're too busy paying for THAT socialist
system as well as our own capitalist system.  We pay twice and then some.
Myself, I'd rather just pay once.  

Bob-


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 9:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

History should be a guide; not a box. Our country has proven that our  
system of government and its attitude towards the free market is  
unmatched by any other system of government past or present. However,  
multinational corporations are something new that our system is having  
a hard time with. This is because a perfect capitalist is a monopolist  
and monopolies destroy innovation, which is the heart of our country's  
success.

Healthcare is tough because it allows for so many straw-man arguments  
that real debate is lost in the noise. Further, healthcare is now a  
global concern, so the actions of other nations impact our own. What I  
would like to see is a real debate that leads to a solution.  
Businesses simply can't sustain the increasing cost of healthcare and  
neither can their employees.

Right now we have the scariest of all worlds whether you are a liberal  
or a conservative. People without healthcare aren't healthy and cost  
us all too much. Doctors have to employ more people to deal with  
insurance company bureaucracy than to actually provide healthcare.  
Further, as a percentage of GDP we spend the most and get the least.

-Matt

On Dec 8, 2009, at 8:29 AM, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote:

 Owen,

   I think maybe what you're missing is the historical perspective.  
 Our history is people left Europe which was mostly feudal with kings  
 and rulers dictating the details of people's lives and these people  
 came here to be free. Collaboration is needed so the whole can  
 exceed what the mere individual is capable of but as is evident in  
 the constitution the founding fathers were trying to have just  
 enough, just the bare minimum of government needed to all that to  
 happen. That's why according to the constitution the federal  
 government's roll is only supposed to involve national security and  
 interstate commerce.

   At one point in time the US government felt it was necessary in  
 order to provide good telephone communications to force there to be  
 only one national telephone company (the streets were getting  
 cluttered with wires and clearly none of the little companies would  
 ever cover the entire nation). Some years later the government felt  
 it was necessary to break up that telecommunications company (the  
 divestiture) and allow competition in those markets. Both decisions  
 were right at the time.

   Certain aspects of socialism have merit and if you exclude a few  
 totalitarian regimes no socialist country is purely socialist  
 without any private property or capitalism, and all mainly  
 capitalist countries have some social programs.

   So it comes down to how much is right. Most people feel we need  
 Medicare, VA hospitals and other things you mention below (we're a  
 compassionate people though the majority would say those things need  
 fixing) but it's a big leap from a medical system which takes care  
 of the elderly and honored veterans to a healthcare system for  
 everyone. And from what I've heard (I watch Glen Beck and Jon  
 Stewart so I know I'm getting both sides) there's some language in  
 the government's proposals which clearly makes their thing an  
 option. It sounds more like an offer you can't refuse when they  
 say you can only keep your current private insurance if you don't  
 make any changes or else you default to the government system. What  
 the majority of Americans want is freedom even if it's dangerous  
 (think 2nd amendment).

 Greg

 On Dec 8, 2009, at 7:32 AM, Owen Harrell wrote:

  I keep reading what everyone is saying about

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[ccrum]

Take the profit out of health care and the quality will go with it. 
Would you do your job for what the gov will pay? Maybe you haven't 
noticed, but it takes a smart person and a whole lot of hard work to get 
into and get through medical school in the US. If there is no incentive 
above helping my fellow man, then you will see a mass exodus of the 
best people in the field. I know several doctors (specialists too) who 
are already looking at plan B in case of a government takeover of the 
health care sytem.

Cameron

Robert West wrote:
 Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
 industry we might have left) who puts profit in healthcare.  As you
 stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
 they can find to do that.  

 Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
 working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying for
 it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white north
 said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
 taxes.

 Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.







 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Tom Sharples
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance, as

 currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP 
 services under the model of broadband insurance. Under that model, your 
 customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs 
 broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access. Or

 how about housing insurance instead of monthly rent. You pay the landlord 
 a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he oversubscribes 
 a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various 
 pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like 
 Kaiser that's the system we have now.

 What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care, 
 healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only 
 serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US 
 consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international 
 lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical pratices, 
 and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs 
 to US consumers.

 Tom S.

 - Original Message - 
 From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


   
 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
 access
 to health care?

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith d...@mvn.net wrote:

 
 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote:

   
 The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
 Now
 
 imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
 don't
   
 we?
 
 There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
 medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have better
 access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the free
 market has failed miserably.

 David Smith
 MVN.net




   
 
 
   
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

I'm moving to Illinois.




-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:49 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

I support a system for people that truly cannot afford it themselves.  Just 
pulling a number out of thin air, but I'd imagine that's only 5% of the 
population.  My parents crested $40k in annual income not long ago, yet we 
(family of 5) always had everything we needed to live and grow, including 
healthcare.  I believe Illinois recently expanded their income requirements 
for the low income government health program to $75k for a family of 4. 
Excuse me?

In going a little bit off topic (Hey, this conversation is relevant to any 
business, regardless of it going anywhere or not.) Why can't this and most 
federal programs be done on a state level?  I believe Massachusetts has had 
government healthcare for a couple years.  Let them have it and let Texas 
not!  Let Massachusetts have government social security, welfare, etc. and 
Texas not!  (No, I don't live in Texas, but it's a largely populated 
conservative state.)


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 10:30 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Um, thats what happens now. I pay mine and you pay yours. So, wheres the
 problem? Oh ya, there are those that cant or choose not to. So now we 
 want
 to force them to? And I thought this country was founded on freedom?


 The key is those that can't. I see it as a humanitarian cause to provide
 essential human-welfare services for those who are, through no fault of
 their own, unable to attain them otherwise. You're welcome to disagree; I
 genuinely don't understand the logic there, but to each his own.

 David Smith
 MVN.net





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

And I, for one, are looking forward to melamine in all my future Chinese
made prescription drugs.  Mmmm  Can't get enough of that
melamine.  

Joke, by the way.

Maybe not a pretty one, though.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:58 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


On Dec 8, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

 Our profit is what drives the medical research and inspiration to make
 something better.

Actually, most medical RD is funded by the government. Further, even  
many of the corporate RD programs depend on government funding.

 The greatest profit based economy?  The USA, and we're doing quite  
 well.
 The greatest government based economy?  We haven't seen them in 18  
 years.

You may want to check your facts. Unfortunately, China is looking much  
better financially than we are.

-Matt





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Blake Bowers]

If Cuba is so good, why do they rank below the US?

Oh - I forgot - that same WHO survey that called us 37th
is hopelessly flawed in the first place.


Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Actually, the United States ranks number 37 in the world for the best
 doctors and health care system.  Most Americans are under the impression
 that we are number one in so many things but sadly we are way less than
 number one in most everything.  The best doctors and healthcare system?
 France and Italy.  Cuba actually has a very impressive health system and
 many countries send their doctors there for training.  Again, sad but 
 true.
 Hiding ones head in the sand and ignoring what goes on outside our borders
ves: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

True but I see the personal attacks starting to creep in and that's not
good.  We are all basically friends and everyone knows that politics and
religion can tear that apart.  I'd do anything for each and every one of you
regardless and just because a person believes one way and not yours doesn't
make then an all around bad guy.  Love thy neighbor regardless, it makes for
an easier life.

Bob-



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Cliff LeBoeuf
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:53 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

And I was just headed back to my desk to commend the individuals that have
been participating in this discussion on how well they have stayed away from
personal attacks on such a polarizing issue that we are all faced with
today.

Perhaps not directly related to WISPA, most definitely related indirectly.
I, for one, gained some insight reading...

Cliff LeBoeuf
985-879-3219
www.cssla.com
www.triparish.net

This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and
privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any
review, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited.
If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive information
for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and
delete all copies of this message.




From: Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2009 10:38:26 -0800
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

IMO, this thread is getting pretty far off track and is wasting both time
and WISPA resources.

I respectfully request that everyone please consider the value in getting
back to work and releasing this list for more productive WISP-focused usage.

jack



RickG wrote: 
  
 Well, this discussion is about what is coming , not what we have but to
make
 you happy - stop Medicare, Social Security, and shut down the VA
hospitals!
 VA patients would be much better served in the private sector with much
less
 waste.
 Medicare  Social Security: The biggest pyramid scheme in history. Let me
 keep invest in my retirement for myself.
 Sheesh! Mankind made it without those programs before they existed why not
 now?
 -RickG
 
 On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Owen Harrell o...@essex1.com
 mailto:o...@essex1.com  wrote:
 
   
  
  
I keep reading what everyone is saying about government and
 insurance, but I don't really believe you. Most of you say that you are
 against the government getting involved in health care, that it is a
 Socialist idea. What I haven't heard is any of you saying you wanted to
 stop
 Medicare or Social Security or shut down the VA hospitals. Why not? These
 are Socialist programs. These are Government run programs with no choice
to
 purchase it from the private market. Why haven't you said to stop those
 programs? You say you believe in the Free Market, but I do not see you
 asking to stop regulating electricity, or natural gas. Only if we let
these
 companies truly charge whatever they wanted to would it be a free market.
 Most of you claim to be Christians, but you do not really believe what
you
 preach. A true Christian always wants to help those that are less
fortunate
 than yourself. Well I believe that includes health care. Or does it mean
 you
 can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I have
had
 insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer, some
has
 been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every year.
 However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other nations.
 We
 live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean
 National
 Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like me
 asking
 you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to either
say
 no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as perfect, but
if
 you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never come
close
 to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the
government
 will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know these
 things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet? Last I
 knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a part
of
 it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start over.
 Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the
 congressmen
 you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the
beginning,
 and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my two
cents
 on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the right
to
 disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I guess
if
 you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left, hurry
and
 decide before there is only

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

No, I haven't.  I'll check into that one, thanks!

And agree, this all needs to stop.  

Bob-



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 2:03 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Love the sentiment and agree to it contents Robert...though really none
of this belongs on the list any longer. BTW, have you read Taleb's The
Black Swan? He is my new favorite philoshopher.


Patrick Leary
Aperto Networks
813.426.4230 mobile

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Robert West
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 10:56 AM
To: fai...@snappydsl.net; 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

No one should be offended by the truth.  The truth, in itself, in
incapable of being offensive it is only the receiver of the truth who
makes it so.

Sorry, part time philosopher here.  That and a lot of drugs in college.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 12:10 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Being in South Florida, a lot of Folks get offended with anything to do
with Cuba...

How about a compromise Mexico any one ?

..Take a look at John Stewart's report http://www.thedailyshow.com/
  
   


Faisal Imtiaz
Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net
Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:52 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Wow...speechless.  I suggest you visit Cuba for all your health care
needs.
You won't and you know it.

Brad

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Robert West
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:22 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Actually, most of the advancement now is coming from other countries.
We're behind but since we live in it, we can't smell it.  We rank near
number 37 in health care, that certainly is not being a leader.  Even
our friend, Cuba ranks higher than we do.  Shameful for a country as
well off as we are.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Blake Bowers
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

With no profit we would have no advancement.


Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message -
From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com
To: 'Tom Sharples' tsharp...@qorvus.com; 'WISPA General List' 
wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with 
 whatever industry we might have left) who puts profit in healthcare.

 As you stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up 
 with anything they can find to do that.

 Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I 
 see working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are 
 paying for it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the 
 great white north said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  
 They just pay extra in taxes.

 Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.







 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
 On Behalf Of Tom Sharples
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical 
 insurance, as

 currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP 
 services under the model of broadband insurance. Under that model, 
 your customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he 
 needs broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny
him access.
 Or

 how about housing insurance instead of monthly rent. You pay the 
 landlord a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he 
 oversubscribes a number of his units and hires guards to keep people 
 out on various pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless 
 you're in an HMO like Kaiser that's the system we have now.

 What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care, 
 healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that 
 only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription 
 drugs to US consumers, restrict free-market access across state and 
 international lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and 
 CYA medical pratices, and only serve

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

Those other countries that have better health outcomes and a longer  
life expectancy have taken profit out of healthcare. Further, their  
doctors are smart and spent a lot of time and money going to medical  
as well. Most did it for the same reasons as doctors here. And many  
get paid well like you would expect a doctor to. Of course, they don't  
have to deal with insurance companies or have huge staffs of people  
try to collect on fees.

-Matt

On Dec 8, 2009, at 3:30 PM, ccrum wrote:

 Take the profit out of health care and the quality will go with it.
 Would you do your job for what the gov will pay? Maybe you haven't
 noticed, but it takes a smart person and a whole lot of hard work to  
 get
 into and get through medical school in the US. If there is no  
 incentive
 above helping my fellow man, then you will see a mass exodus of the
 best people in the field. I know several doctors (specialists too) who
 are already looking at plan B in case of a government takeover of the
 health care sytem.

 Cameron

 Robert West wrote:
 Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with  
 whatever
 industry we might have left) who puts profit in healthcare.  As you
 stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with  
 anything
 they can find to do that.

 Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing  
 I see
 working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are  
 paying for
 it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great  
 white north
 said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay  
 extra in
 taxes.

 Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.







 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Tom Sharples
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical  
 insurance, as

 currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
 services under the model of broadband insurance. Under that  
 model, your
 customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
 broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him  
 access. Or

 how about housing insurance instead of monthly rent. You pay the  
 landlord
 a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he  
 oversubscribes
 a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
 pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO  
 like
 Kaiser that's the system we have now.

 What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
 healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws  
 that only
 serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs  
 to US
 consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
 lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical  
 pratices,
 and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and  
 prescription drugs
 to US consumers.

 Tom S.

 - Original Message -
 From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance



 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not  
 truly run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even  
 after all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
 access
 to health care?

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith d...@mvn.net wrote:


 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote:


 The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our  
 business...
 Now

 imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do  
 that,
 don't

 we?

 There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and  
 basic
 medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans  
 have better
 access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance  
 the free
 market has failed miserably.

 David Smith
 MVN.net





 
 

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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Blake Bowers wrote:

 If Cuba is so good, why do they rank below the US?

Mostly likely because they are such a poor country and can't spend  
much money on healthcare.

-Matt




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Blake Bowers]

You can't have it both ways.

The survey (which is flawed, but it was brought up) says that Cuba
rates below the US.  Did you read how the numbers were come up
with?


Don't take your organs to heaven,
heaven knows we need them down here!
Be an organ donor, sign your donor card today.

- Original Message - 
From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance



 On Dec 8, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Blake Bowers wrote:

 If Cuba is so good, why do they rank below the US?

 Mostly likely because they are such a poor country and can't spend
 much money on healthcare.

 -Matt



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

Right.  Just like the people that want to go somewhere in life with private 
schools, the people that want to live will have to pay extra for private 
insurance.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Andy Trimmell atrimm...@precisionds.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 11:55 AM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 [Having private options in a public world means you're paying for your
 healthcare twice.  It's like being forced to have Qwest DSL, but
 electing to have FiOS instead.  You're paying for 2 Internet services,
 one great and the other not.]

 Kinda like when I was home schooled as a kid and my parents had to pay
 school taxes for public school? Only makes sense that we'd again pay
 twice for another public option.

 Good analogy.



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

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 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Mike Hammett]

Exactly.  Bernie Madoff went to jail because of his Ponzi scheme, why didn't 
FDR for social security?  Well, other than the obvious of him dieing.

Again, if Maryland wants to do social security, great.  Leave it out of 
Kansas.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 Well, this discussion is about what is coming , not what we have but to 
 make
 you happy - stop Medicare, Social Security, and shut down the VA 
 hospitals!
 VA patients would be much better served in the private sector with much 
 less
 waste.
 Medicare  Social Security: The biggest pyramid scheme in history. Let me
 keep invest in my retirement for myself.
 Sheesh! Mankind made it without those programs before they existed why not
 now?
 -RickG

 On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Owen Harrell o...@essex1.com wrote:

I keep reading what everyone is saying about government and
 insurance, but I don't really believe you. Most of you say that you are
 against the government getting involved in health care, that it is a
 Socialist idea. What I haven't heard is any of you saying you wanted to
 stop
 Medicare or Social Security or shut down the VA hospitals. Why not? These
 are Socialist programs. These are Government run programs with no choice 
 to
 purchase it from the private market. Why haven't you said to stop those
 programs? You say you believe in the Free Market, but I do not see you
 asking to stop regulating electricity, or natural gas. Only if we let 
 these
 companies truly charge whatever they wanted to would it be a free market.
 Most of you claim to be Christians, but you do not really believe what 
 you
 preach. A true Christian always wants to help those that are less 
 fortunate
 than yourself. Well I believe that includes health care. Or does it mean
 you
 can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I have 
 had
 insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer, some 
 has
 been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every year.
 However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other nations.
 We
 live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean
 National
 Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like me
 asking
 you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to either 
 say
 no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as perfect, but 
 if
 you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never come 
 close
 to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the 
 government
 will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know these
 things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet? Last I
 knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a part 
 of
 it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start over.
 Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the
 congressmen
 you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the 
 beginning,
 and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my two 
 cents
 on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the right 
 to
 disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I guess 
 if
 you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left, hurry 
 and
 decide before there is only one left.

 Owen Harrell


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Paul C Diem
 Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of opportunity 
 and
 became the land of guarantees.

 Paul C Diem
 pcd...@foxvalley.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Oh boy, here we go.

 Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity,
 transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

 NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our
 own direction is all that God has given us.
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


  On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not
  truly
  run
  in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after
 all
  the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have
  access
  to health

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Blake Bowers wrote:

 You can't have it both ways.

 The survey (which is flawed, but it was brought up) says that Cuba
 rates below the US.  Did you read how the numbers were come up
 with?

I guess I don't understand how I am expecting it both ways. You asked  
why Cuba is ranked lower and I answered.

-Matt




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[os10rules]

Sorry guys, I just have to jump in on the Cuban health care thing. I live in 
Venezuela and we have LOTS of Cuban doctors. I know some personally. I know 
Venezuelans who have studied in Cuba. It's nothing like they (the Cuban govt) 
say it is. The numbers are good because it's a closed totalitarian system where 
one doesn't dare report what is unpopular. Come on guys, you know enough about 
Cuba. People are clinging to inner tubes and hunks of wood to get away. When I 
was in the merchant marine we picked up two boat loads of them. Do you guys 
remember when Russia was still the USSR and on Radio Moscow they had the 
farm report segment telling about the great excesses of food produced mean 
while our merchant marine was busying bringing loads of give-away grain to the 
USSR. Please don'e buy what their state-run media is saying. Anyone see 
Fahrenheit 911? Remember when Michael Moore arrived at the neighborhood 
hospital but then they (and their cameras) were quickly directed to 
 the other hospital? Wonder why? Because the neighborhood one (and the whole 
healthcare system for the people) would have been a laughing stock. Instead 
they were directed to the premier 5 star hospital that is probably for party 
officials and military higher ups.

Greg

On Dec 8, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Robert West wrote:

 Actually, the United States ranks number 37 in the world for the best
 doctors and health care system.  Most Americans are under the impression
 that we are number one in so many things but sadly we are way less than
 number one in most everything.  The best doctors and healthcare system?
 France and Italy.  Cuba actually has a very impressive health system and
 many countries send their doctors there for training.  Again, sad but true.
 Hiding ones head in the sand and ignoring what goes on outside our borders
 is what we've been doing.  I know it's not competition, per se, but it
 should at least be used as a measuring tool.  I'm not under any delusion
 that we or myself are best in anything.  Keeps me moving.
 
 Bob-
 
 Is this the Insurance List?This is why politics should be a No-No.
 It's 99% of the list now.
 
 Bob-
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Brad Belton
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:48 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
 No kidding.  No profits no medical advancements.  Where do people go when
 they seek the best doctors and health system in the world?  America.
 
 Brad
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:15 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
 No, not that simple...
 
 On 12/7/09, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote:
 Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with whatever
 industry we might have left) who puts profit in healthcare.  As you
 stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with anything
 they can find to do that.
 
 Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing I see
 working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are paying
 for
 it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great white
 north
 said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay extra in
 taxes.
 
 Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Tom Sharples
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
 One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance,
 as
 
 currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP
 services under the model of broadband insurance. Under that model, your
 customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
 broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access.
 Or
 
 how about housing insurance instead of monthly rent. You pay the
 landlord
 a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he
 oversubscribes
 a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
 pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like
 Kaiser that's the system we have now.
 
 What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care,
 healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only
 serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US
 consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international
 lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical
 pratices,
 and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription
 drugs
 to US consumers.
 
 Tom S.
 
 - Original Message -
 From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
 To: WISPA General

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 7:16 PM, Mike Hammett wrote:

 Exactly.  Bernie Madoff went to jail because of his Ponzi scheme,  
 why didn't
 FDR for social security?  Well, other than the obvious of him dieing.

Maybe you don't realize that Madoff fraudulently mislead investors  
whereas social security is a government mandate. Of course, this has  
been refuted by many others; see...

http://www.socialsecurity.gov/history/ponzi.htm

http://www.fool.com/retirement/general/2009/07/21/is-social-security-a-giant-ponzi-scheme.aspx

http://www.businessweek.com/the_thread/economicsunbound/archives/2008/12/is_social_secur.html

http://money.cnn.com/2009/01/06/news/economy/social.security.fortune/index.htm

I challenge you to take a supportable position that can actually move  
the healthcare debate forward. Again, I believe it is people like you  
that keep legitimate debate from occurring. Shame on you.

-Matt



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Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

And I guess because you know someone from Canada/Britain/France/Spain/ 
etc that swears the healthcare is worse then they make it out to be  
and that the US is where everyone with money goes then it must be  
true. Let's all just ignore study after study that shows every single  
first world country has it better than the US. Sure, I'll believe Cuba  
is hiding the real story. What about the other 30+ countries that have  
better healthcare at a lower GDP cost? Are they lying too?

-Matt

On Dec 8, 2009, at 7:47 PM, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote:

 Sorry guys, I just have to jump in on the Cuban health care thing. I  
 live in Venezuela and we have LOTS of Cuban doctors. I know some  
 personally. I know Venezuelans who have studied in Cuba. It's  
 nothing like they (the Cuban govt) say it is. The numbers are good  
 because it's a closed totalitarian system where one doesn't dare  
 report what is unpopular. Come on guys, you know enough about Cuba.  
 People are clinging to inner tubes and hunks of wood to get away.  
 When I was in the merchant marine we picked up two boat loads of  
 them. Do you guys remember when Russia was still the USSR and on  
 Radio Moscow they had the farm report segment telling about the  
 great excesses of food produced mean while our merchant marine was  
 busying bringing loads of give-away grain to the USSR. Please don'e  
 buy what their state-run media is saying. Anyone see Fahrenheit 911?  
 Remember when Michael Moore arrived at the neighborhood hospital  
 but then they (and their cameras) were quickly directed to
 the other hospital? Wonder why? Because the neighborhood one (and  
 the whole healthcare system for the people) would have been a  
 laughing stock. Instead they were directed to the premier 5 star  
 hospital that is probably for party officials and military higher ups.

 Greg

 On Dec 8, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Robert West wrote:

 Actually, the United States ranks number 37 in the world for the best
 doctors and health care system.  Most Americans are under the  
 impression
 that we are number one in so many things but sadly we are way less  
 than
 number one in most everything.  The best doctors and healthcare  
 system?
 France and Italy.  Cuba actually has a very impressive health  
 system and
 many countries send their doctors there for training.  Again, sad  
 but true.
 Hiding ones head in the sand and ignoring what goes on outside our  
 borders
 is what we've been doing.  I know it's not competition, per se, but  
 it
 should at least be used as a measuring tool.  I'm not under any  
 delusion
 that we or myself are best in anything.  Keeps me moving.

 Bob-

 Is this the Insurance List?This is why politics should be a  
 No-No.
 It's 99% of the list now.

 Bob-




 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Brad Belton
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:48 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 No kidding.  No profits no medical advancements.  Where do people  
 go when
 they seek the best doctors and health system in the world?  America.

 Brad

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:15 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 No, not that simple...

 On 12/7/09, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote:
 Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with  
 whatever
 industry we might have left) who puts profit in healthcare.  As  
 you
 stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with  
 anything
 they can find to do that.

 Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing  
 I see
 working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are  
 paying
 for
 it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great  
 white
 north
 said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay  
 extra in
 taxes.

 Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.







 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Tom Sharples
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical  
 insurance,
 as

 currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling  
 ISP
 services under the model of broadband insurance. Under that  
 model, your
 customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs
 broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him  
 access.
 Or

 how about housing insurance instead of monthly rent. You pay the
 landlord
 a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he
 oversubscribes
 a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various
 pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

What?  FDR is dead???  I thought him and Stalin went halfs on a condo in
Malta  Maybe I have my history mixed up.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 7:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Exactly.  Bernie Madoff went to jail because of his Ponzi scheme, why didn't

FDR for social security?  Well, other than the obvious of him dieing.

Again, if Maryland wants to do social security, great.  Leave it out of 
Kansas.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 Well, this discussion is about what is coming , not what we have but to 
 make
 you happy - stop Medicare, Social Security, and shut down the VA 
 hospitals!
 VA patients would be much better served in the private sector with much 
 less
 waste.
 Medicare  Social Security: The biggest pyramid scheme in history. Let me
 keep invest in my retirement for myself.
 Sheesh! Mankind made it without those programs before they existed why not
 now?
 -RickG

 On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:32 AM, Owen Harrell o...@essex1.com wrote:

I keep reading what everyone is saying about government and
 insurance, but I don't really believe you. Most of you say that you are
 against the government getting involved in health care, that it is a
 Socialist idea. What I haven't heard is any of you saying you wanted to
 stop
 Medicare or Social Security or shut down the VA hospitals. Why not? These
 are Socialist programs. These are Government run programs with no choice 
 to
 purchase it from the private market. Why haven't you said to stop those
 programs? You say you believe in the Free Market, but I do not see you
 asking to stop regulating electricity, or natural gas. Only if we let 
 these
 companies truly charge whatever they wanted to would it be a free market.
 Most of you claim to be Christians, but you do not really believe what 
 you
 preach. A true Christian always wants to help those that are less 
 fortunate
 than yourself. Well I believe that includes health care. Or does it mean
 you
 can pick and choose who should be helped and who shouldn't. Yes, I have 
 had
 insurance almost my whole life. Some was paid for by my employer, some 
 has
 been paid for by myself. What I have seen is premiums go up every year.
 However, the health of this nation ranks in the 30's among other nations.
 We
 live 3-7 years less than countries with health care. Does that mean
 National
 Health Care will be perfect? I do not think so. That would be like me
 asking
 you if your Wireless was up 100% of the time. You would have to either 
 say
 no, or lie to me. I do not believe there is such a thing as perfect, but 
 if
 you never try to achieve perfection, you sure as hell will never come 
 close
 to reaching it. I also notice how everyone seems to know how the 
 government
 will run Health Care and what is being done wrong. How do you know these
 things when there is not even a completed bill in the Senate yet? Last I
 knew, they were still debating what should and what shouldn't be a part 
 of
 it. Some say we should throw the bill in the Senate away, and start over.
 Maybe they should have been there when it started. These are the
 congressmen
 you should be pissed at. They elected not to participate in the 
 beginning,
 and now want to cry foul and ask to start over. These are just my two 
 cents
 on the subject, and because you are still in America, you have the right 
 to
 disagree, not read this at all and delete it, or respond. Well, I guess 
 if
 you have read the last line, you now only have two choices left, hurry 
 and
 decide before there is only one left.

 Owen Harrell


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Paul C Diem
 Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 1:26 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 Yup, in the past century, America stopped being the land of opportunity 
 and
 became the land of guarantees.

 Paul C Diem
 pcd...@foxvalley.net

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:39 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Oh boy, here we go.

 Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity,
 transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

 NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our
 own direction is all that God has given us.
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Robert West]

I did, they said it was too darn cold and I agreed.

But the beer was good.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 8:04 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

Never heard a complaint in Canada.

Can we keep this #WISPA and not #Insurance please?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources.
--- Albert Einstein


On Tue, Dec 8, 2009 at 7:59 PM, Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com wrote:

 And I guess because you know someone from Canada/Britain/France/Spain/
 etc that swears the healthcare is worse then they make it out to be
 and that the US is where everyone with money goes then it must be
 true. Let's all just ignore study after study that shows every single
 first world country has it better than the US. Sure, I'll believe Cuba
 is hiding the real story. What about the other 30+ countries that have
 better healthcare at a lower GDP cost? Are they lying too?

 -Matt

 On Dec 8, 2009, at 7:47 PM, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote:

  Sorry guys, I just have to jump in on the Cuban health care thing. I
  live in Venezuela and we have LOTS of Cuban doctors. I know some
  personally. I know Venezuelans who have studied in Cuba. It's
  nothing like they (the Cuban govt) say it is. The numbers are good
  because it's a closed totalitarian system where one doesn't dare
  report what is unpopular. Come on guys, you know enough about Cuba.
  People are clinging to inner tubes and hunks of wood to get away.
  When I was in the merchant marine we picked up two boat loads of
  them. Do you guys remember when Russia was still the USSR and on
  Radio Moscow they had the farm report segment telling about the
  great excesses of food produced mean while our merchant marine was
  busying bringing loads of give-away grain to the USSR. Please don'e
  buy what their state-run media is saying. Anyone see Fahrenheit 911?
  Remember when Michael Moore arrived at the neighborhood hospital
  but then they (and their cameras) were quickly directed to
  the other hospital? Wonder why? Because the neighborhood one (and
  the whole healthcare system for the people) would have been a
  laughing stock. Instead they were directed to the premier 5 star
  hospital that is probably for party officials and military higher ups.
 
  Greg
 
  On Dec 8, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Robert West wrote:
 
  Actually, the United States ranks number 37 in the world for the best
  doctors and health care system.  Most Americans are under the
  impression
  that we are number one in so many things but sadly we are way less
  than
  number one in most everything.  The best doctors and healthcare
  system?
  France and Italy.  Cuba actually has a very impressive health
  system and
  many countries send their doctors there for training.  Again, sad
  but true.
  Hiding ones head in the sand and ignoring what goes on outside our
  borders
  is what we've been doing.  I know it's not competition, per se, but
  it
  should at least be used as a measuring tool.  I'm not under any
  delusion
  that we or myself are best in anything.  Keeps me moving.
 
  Bob-
 
  Is this the Insurance List?This is why politics should be a
  No-No.
  It's 99% of the list now.
 
  Bob-
 
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
  boun...@wispa.org] On
  Behalf Of Brad Belton
  Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:48 PM
  To: 'WISPA General List'
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
  No kidding.  No profits no medical advancements.  Where do people
  go when
  they seek the best doctors and health system in the world?  America.
 
  Brad
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
  boun...@wispa.org] On
  Behalf Of Josh Luthman
  Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:15 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
  No, not that simple...
 
  On 12/7/09, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote:
  Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with
  whatever
  industry we might have left) who puts profit in healthcare.  As
  you
  stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with
  anything
  they can find to do that.
 
  Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing
  I see
  working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are
  paying
  for
  it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great
  white
  north
  said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay
  extra in
  taxes.
 
  Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
  boun...@wispa.org] On
  Behalf Of Tom Sharples
  Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
  To: WISPA General List

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[os10rules]

Matt,

Chill, you're taking a really harsh tone. I'm talking about Cuba 
because I know about that. I have many Latino friends. I speak Spanish. I know 
Cubans and I know a lot of people who have been to Cuba. You're putting words 
in my mouth. I'm not refuting all those other countries statistics. I thought 
you wanted debate of the facts. Or do you just want us to sit at your feet and 
listen?

Greg

On Dec 8, 2009, at 7:59 PM, Matt Liotta wrote:

 And I guess because you know someone from Canada/Britain/France/Spain/ 
 etc that swears the healthcare is worse then they make it out to be  
 and that the US is where everyone with money goes then it must be  
 true. Let's all just ignore study after study that shows every single  
 first world country has it better than the US. Sure, I'll believe Cuba  
 is hiding the real story. What about the other 30+ countries that have  
 better healthcare at a lower GDP cost? Are they lying too?
 
 -Matt
 
 On Dec 8, 2009, at 7:47 PM, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Sorry guys, I just have to jump in on the Cuban health care thing. I  
 live in Venezuela and we have LOTS of Cuban doctors. I know some  
 personally. I know Venezuelans who have studied in Cuba. It's  
 nothing like they (the Cuban govt) say it is. The numbers are good  
 because it's a closed totalitarian system where one doesn't dare  
 report what is unpopular. Come on guys, you know enough about Cuba.  
 People are clinging to inner tubes and hunks of wood to get away.  
 When I was in the merchant marine we picked up two boat loads of  
 them. Do you guys remember when Russia was still the USSR and on  
 Radio Moscow they had the farm report segment telling about the  
 great excesses of food produced mean while our merchant marine was  
 busying bringing loads of give-away grain to the USSR. Please don'e  
 buy what their state-run media is saying. Anyone see Fahrenheit 911?  
 Remember when Michael Moore arrived at the neighborhood hospital  
 but then they (and their cameras) were quickly directed to
 the other hospital? Wonder why? Because the neighborhood one (and  
 the whole healthcare system for the people) would have been a  
 laughing stock. Instead they were directed to the premier 5 star  
 hospital that is probably for party officials and military higher ups.
 
 Greg
 
 On Dec 8, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Robert West wrote:
 
 Actually, the United States ranks number 37 in the world for the best
 doctors and health care system.  Most Americans are under the  
 impression
 that we are number one in so many things but sadly we are way less  
 than
 number one in most everything.  The best doctors and healthcare  
 system?
 France and Italy.  Cuba actually has a very impressive health  
 system and
 many countries send their doctors there for training.  Again, sad  
 but true.
 Hiding ones head in the sand and ignoring what goes on outside our  
 borders
 is what we've been doing.  I know it's not competition, per se, but  
 it
 should at least be used as a measuring tool.  I'm not under any  
 delusion
 that we or myself are best in anything.  Keeps me moving.
 
 Bob-
 
 Is this the Insurance List?This is why politics should be a  
 No-No.
 It's 99% of the list now.
 
 Bob-
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Brad Belton
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:48 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
 No kidding.  No profits no medical advancements.  Where do people  
 go when
 they seek the best doctors and health system in the world?  America.
 
 Brad
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Josh Luthman
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:15 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
 No, not that simple...
 
 On 12/7/09, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote:
 Exactly.  We are the one and only industrialized country (with  
 whatever
 industry we might have left) who puts profit in healthcare.  As  
 you
 stated, their goal is to NOT pay and they can and do come up with  
 anything
 they can find to do that.
 
 Profit has no place in healthcare.  Single payer is the only thing  
 I see
 working.  As far as increased taxes to pay for it, we already are  
 paying
 for
 it and getting zero bang for our buck.  As George from the great  
 white
 north
 said, healthcare shows up nowhere in his budget.  They just pay  
 extra in
 taxes.
 
 Medicare for all.  End of the controversy.  Simple.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Tom Sharples
 Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:24 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance
 
 One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical  
 insurance,
 as
 
 currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider

Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Matt Liotta]

On Dec 8, 2009, at 8:56 PM, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote:

 Matt,

   Chill, you're taking a really harsh tone. I'm talking about Cuba  
 because I know about that. I have many Latino friends. I speak  
 Spanish. I know Cubans and I know a lot of people who have been to  
 Cuba. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not refuting all those  
 other countries statistics. I thought you wanted debate of the  
 facts. Or do you just want us to sit at your feet and listen?

I do want to debate the facts, but you are responding with anecdotes.  
This is a standard straw-man used throughout the healthcare debate. I  
know person X from country Y that says this or had such and such  
happen to them. Such a statement can be true, but it is meaningless in  
the context of the debate. Such a situation needs to be statistically  
significant to matter. All systems have their flaws as no one believes  
a perfect system exists.

-Matt




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[os10rules]

Matt,

Please reread what I said. I wasn't commenting on the whole healthcare 
debate. I was talking about Cuba. CUBA CUBA CUBA. Do you get it now? Just CUBA. 
Reread the original post and get off your high horse. Have you noticed everyone 
else stopped replying to you.

Everyone else, sorry, that's my last post on this topic no matter what 
Matt says next.

Greg

On Dec 8, 2009, at 9:05 PM, Matt Liotta wrote:

 
 On Dec 8, 2009, at 8:56 PM, os10ru...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Matt,
 
  Chill, you're taking a really harsh tone. I'm talking about Cuba  
 because I know about that. I have many Latino friends. I speak  
 Spanish. I know Cubans and I know a lot of people who have been to  
 Cuba. You're putting words in my mouth. I'm not refuting all those  
 other countries statistics. I thought you wanted debate of the  
 facts. Or do you just want us to sit at your feet and listen?
 
 I do want to debate the facts, but you are responding with anecdotes.  
 This is a standard straw-man used throughout the healthcare debate. I  
 know person X from country Y that says this or had such and such  
 happen to them. Such a statement can be true, but it is meaningless in  
 the context of the debate. Such a situation needs to be statistically  
 significant to matter. All systems have their flaws as no one believes  
 a perfect system exists.
 
 -Matt
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

As I stated before...   Medicare reimburses such low amounts, that ever 
doctor, hospital, clinic, lab, etc, that accepts it does so at a loss.   Not 
just no profit but at a loss.Not only that, but Medicare has the 
highest level of financial fraud, period.   It's very efficient... at giving 
away money for nothing, and yet, at the same time,  has created the single 
largest pick the pocket of someone else program to exist.



--
From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:24 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance



 Source please?


 http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq

 (The overhead numbers come from Won't this be just another bureaucracy?)

 David Smith
 MVN.net


 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

LOL...

I was being lectured by some do-gooder online for my rotten morality, and my 
answer to him was...

So, I have invested my entire life savings, toiled for 4 years without a 
paycheck to put all the cash back into the business, and have worked more 
hours than can ever be accounted for.   My phone is on 24/7, people feel 
free to call me from 5 AM to midnight, and expect me to respond, even if 
it's a holiday weekend.Nobody paid insurance for me,  I get no vacation, 
I have no right to unemployment should I go broke,  but yet I face liability 
and lawsuits if someone finds themselves inconvenienced.   I have no right 
to a paycheck, compensation, health care, nor ANYTHING most employers pay to 
employees...

But yet, after I've invested my whole life, sacrificed everything from 
Christmas dinners to family vacations to marital happiness (should hear the 
wife when I have to work and she had other ideas!), but should some person 
with dubious skills, no experience, possibly no loyalty to me or my business 
come to me and I see fit to take a chance on trading money for his time, I 
have a moral obligation to give him things I don't have myself?I OWE him 
not laying him off, unlimited expenditures for training, health care 
insurance, paid time off for vacations and assorted other benefits?

The twit in question then berated me for being a selfish capitalist.   I'm 
supposed to do this without ever a thought to my own benefit, just do it for 
everyone else.

At that point, I've given up on the entitlement crowd.   As far as I am 
concerned, anyone who thinks ANY need is a right to demand someone else 
provide is deficient, both in morality and in decency.I have a right to 
just one thing in this world - to breath.Everything else is either 
earned, or given out of generosity.I am NOT your slave, you have no 
right whatsoever to ANYTHING I do, no matter how fancy your argument about 
how you want to live without stress or worry at the expense of others. 
And I have no right to anything of yours, either.



--
From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:27 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 When you own a business, you take a huge risk using a lot of blood, sweat,
 tears, time away from the family, worrying about the baby. Then you have 
 to
 fight for it because all they want to do is take it away. It changes your
 perspective on life and the order of things.
 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

I dunno about him, but I can tell you that over the last 5.5 years I've been 
in business, I have seen the last of the rice, beans, flour, bread, milk 
vanish and the bank account be just as empty as the fridge and pantry a good 
many times.

And, even when facing that kind of need at home, I've forgiven people's 
arrears accounts because they had no job or income and simply could not pay, 
and kept them in service so they could continue to job search.

Maybe, unlike David's belief, generosity is best done personally, not the 
fake kind doled out by uncaring lifetime agency hacks...



--
From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:48 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 Those that cant are already covered by the generosity of the US 
 taxpayer.
 That goes back to my original question: Who does not have access?

 As far as compassion, I appreciate yours. I've had some very rough times
 myself over the years. If/when I get into another rough time, I need to
 count on you to pay for my health care. Can I give you call?

 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

Think IRS compassion.

I've got a personal debt to my state, and you have no idea how incredibly 
nasty they are.

The guy actually told me wife it would be better if she were also 
unemployed, so as to assure that no additional tax debt might be incurred.

Now THAT is the kind of health care agency we need.



--
From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 8:51 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 22:46, Marlon K. Schafer 
 o...@odessaoffice.comwrote:

 Think of the stereotypical government agency.  Driver's license office.


 Last time I was there, I was in and out in about ten minutes. Granted, 
 that
 was several years ago; the last few transactions I had with them were
 online.


 Road department.


 Yup, there's roads. They work just fine for driving on. Last time it 
 snowed,
 they were even more-or-less clear by the time I was out driving on 'em.



 VA hospital.


 I've no experience with this.


  Our education system is almost 100%
 government funded and controlled (ask your local school board just how 
 much
 say they really have) and it's supposedly among the worst in the
 industrialized world.


 I think I turned out okay, though I imagine at this point some of you
 disagree :v



 Do you REALLY think that the government will finally, somehow, magically
 start doing a good job with health care?  Honestly?  How would it be any
 different than any other government agency?


 I have no problem with any of these examples.



 David Smith
 MVN.net


 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

Marlon...  Exactly.

A number of years ago, I made acquaintance of nice guy who is Norwegian... A 
programmer, open source aficionado. One day we got talking about our 
living - you know, home, car, food, etc.I mentioned something about 
losing my home a few years back due to unemployment.   He just lost it.   He 
claimed that if he would be homeless or go hungry if he didn't stay 
employed, the stress would kill him, and he would literally be so unnerved 
he could not focus and work.

And they wonder why Americans are so danged tough, when it comes down to it.

Although, from reading this list, it seems some people want it pretty danged 
soft.

We as imperfect humans ARE motivated to improve our lot in life.Harness 
that motive and jump back.



--
From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:06 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 I've always thought this was really pretty easy.

 Dave, just pick ONE family and pay their insurance for them!  It's well
 within your right to do so.  And it helps one other family afford health
 care.

 I give a lot of food away.  I give internet away.  I let others us my land
 for free.  But *I* get to pick who I do that for.  That's what freedom is.

 If someone else were to tell me who to feed, who to let on my property, 
 who
 to give my internet to, I've not lost me freedom.  If I loose my freedom
 what do I have left to work for?  To fight for?  To die for?

 marlon
 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

I'm sure you're a nice guy...

But you're trying to convince a lot of people who know better by long years 
of experience, that life would be beautiful and all will be fine, if we just 
give Congress a few more trillion dollars a year of our hard earned money.

Oh, and defining being moral and caring as giving Congress more money is 
an insult to people who know better.



--
From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 9:17 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 I'm trying to advocate a position I believe will provide affordable (free)
 health care for everyone, which is a net gain for society. Collectively, 
 we
 all would pay less, and most of us as individuals would pay less, for a 
 good
 single-payer system. Heck, it works for every other civilized country on 
 the
 planet, it just might work here too.
 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[MDK]

Every country with a government run medical system   Denies routine 
medical care, extraordinary medical care, or expensive medical care on a 
routine basis.   This is why babies delivered by the NHS hospitals in 
Britain are less than 90% born in a hospital room or delivery room. The 
rest are born in hallways, waiting rooms, streets, cabs, or ambulances 
because there are no available rooms.And, this number hasn't changed 
significantly in years and will not change, because the government simply 
hasn't enough money to expand facilities.

This is why in some cities in Canada, the wait for the assignment of a 
personal physician can take up to 5 years.The government can't hire 
enough doctors, and those that are hired have no incentive to take on 
greater case loads.

This is why Veterinarians in Canada have near instant access to MRI 
machines, while people do not.Veterinary services are free market, 
people's service are socialized.

In every case, the government balances it's books by simply denying services 
or delaying services to people.

But, of course, if a government beaurocrat denies treatment, like was done 
for my mother, the patient just dies and we all mutter ooh, that's so sad 
and we go on our way, secure in the fact that it wasn't our failure to pull 
out our wallets and give to help the needy, but if someone dies because they 
themselves could not afford to pay for it (as opposed to the agency budget 
not having the money), we get to get all righteous and get on our soapbox 
and yell rants and raves and excoriate those selfish bastards who are 
refusing to give Congress a few more trillion dollars a year to spend in 
ways to benefit themselves politically.

I mean, it's so easy, once the government has to decide, not you having to 
decide whether you have to sacrifice for charity, your conscience and self 
righteousness can remain fully intact - it won't be YOUR fault they died 
like my mother did, because Medicare refused treatment, right?After all, 
Medicare denies treatment to covered patients MORE than any other insurer, 
public or private, in some cases by more than 5 times as many denials as 
private insurance.Yet, Medicare has the largest percentage of fraudulent 
payments of any insurer, BY FAR.But, hey, if it's the government's 
responsibility, we're morally relieved of any personal responsibility for 
those who suffer for a lack, right?

Or, are you going to tell us that government can buy unlimited health care 
for everyone?

--
From: Matt Liotta mlio...@r337.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2009 4:59 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

 And I guess because you know someone from Canada/Britain/France/Spain/
 etc that swears the healthcare is worse then they make it out to be
 and that the US is where everyone with money goes then it must be
 true. Let's all just ignore study after study that shows every single
 first world country has it better than the US. Sure, I'll believe Cuba
 is hiding the real story. What about the other 30+ countries that have
 better healthcare at a lower GDP cost? Are they lying too?

 -Matt

 




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Brad Belton]

Great post!   clap - clap - clap

Brad

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of MDK
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance


As business people, we should be looking at insurance for health like we do 
as insurance for everything else.What's it there for?   Protect us from 
catastrophe, like falling through some guy's glass skylight, or accidently 
parking the bucket truck on top of his sprinker control box and it falls 
through the lid...   Or, think of any other catastrophic accident, in terms 
of cost...

I don't know about you, but in my family, we evaluate our spending on food, 
cell phones, and other stuff on a regular basis.   We have an item that goes

to pay doctor bills.I haven't had insurance in years, but we do have a 
hundreds of dollars a month budget item.   (there's 7 in the family).

Imagine if used the insurance on the work rig to pay for having the tires 
changed, oil changed,  washed,  seat tear fixed, tuneups, and even brake 
jobs.Not only would your car insurance be stupidly high,  we'd never 
care what the places charged to do the fixing, since insurance pays.   As 
business people, we use our analytical powers to fix stuff, save money, etc.

Apply it to health insurance.You KNOW you're going to spend money on it.

Budget for it.   But use insurance only as catastrophic relief, and find 
doctors, clinics, pharmacies that give you the best deal for cash, and take 
advantage of it.Since WWII, the laws concerning taxes and wage controls 
provided high incentive for employers to pay for health insurance as a 
benefit to be competitive.Now, everyone expects employer to pay the bill

and health care should be free or close to it.

Since that means YOU consume, the insurance pays, the doctor charges... 
You can fully understand why prices spiral out of control - there is no 
market forces to control prices.

Every single payer health system in the world controls costs by simply 
deciding who can and who cannot be treated.It lacks any market forces to

make anyone or anything competitive.And we've almost done that here, by 
removing the consumer from the equation.

Imagine what kind of revenues we could generate if the government promised 
everyone broadband... the consumer used, we provided, beaurocrats pay. 
Either prices would spiral upwards wildly, or we'd start capping customers 
and limiting use to control OUR costs.

The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...   Now

imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that, don't

we?

 





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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote:

 The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
 Now

imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that, don't
 we?


There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have better
access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the free
market has failed miserably.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Jeremy Parr]

2009/12/7 David E. Smith d...@mvn.net:
 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote:

 The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
 Now

 imagine if we used it for health care, too.    We know how to do that, don't
 we?


 There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
 medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have better
 access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the free
 market has failed miserably.

and the govt run muni-wifi has been such a success story



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[RickG]

Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly run
in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after all
the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have access
to health care?

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith d...@mvn.net wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote:

  The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
  Now

 imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
 don't
  we?


 There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
 medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have better
 access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the free
 market has failed miserably.

 David Smith
 MVN.net



 
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Tom Sharples]

One of the basic probems IMO is that the whole idea of medical insurance, as 
currentlky implemented, is fundamentally flawed. Consider selling ISP 
services under the model of broadband insurance. Under that model, your 
customer would pay you a certain amount per month in case he needs 
broadband, and you would do your best to find reasons to deny him access. Or 
how about housing insurance instead of monthly rent. You pay the landlord 
a certain amount every month in case you need shelter and he oversubscribes 
a number of his units and hires guards to keep people out on various 
pretexts. Sound completely ridiculous, yet unless you're in an HMO like 
Kaiser that's the system we have now.

What we need is universal (private or public) access to medical care, 
healthy lifestyle incentives, and the elimination of stupid laws that only 
serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs to US 
consumers, restrict free-market access across state and international 
lines,create incentives toward excess consumption and CYA medical pratices, 
and only serve to increase the costs of medical care and prescription drugs 
to US consumers.

Tom S.

- Original Message - 
From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
 access
 to health care?

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 5:58 PM, David E. Smith d...@mvn.net wrote:

 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 16:42, MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us wrote:

  The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business...
  Now

 imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that,
 don't
  we?


 There is a fundamental difference between broadband Internet and basic
 medical care, and the fact that tens of millions of Americans have better
 access to the former than the latter shows that in this instance the free
 market has failed miserably.

 David Smith
 MVN.net



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/

 

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07:33:00




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[David E. Smith]

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have access
 to health care?


I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue of
health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved by the
free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human right. No
person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about things like
money when it comes to basic health and wellness. The fact that even one
American (or anyone else really, but this is a US-centric list) doesn't, in
my mind represents a deep-rooted failure of the free market, and of basic
human kindness and compassion.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Faisal Imtiaz]

Good point,

However it would be naïve to belive that the US Health Care system is a ' a
deep-rooted failure of the free market, 

I sincerely believe that the Failure in the Healt Care system is due to
Im-proper Regulations.

E.g.  You can purchase Medical Drugs, Mfg. By the same American Company,
for $10 in Canada, and the same  in the Far East for $5, but here in the US
you would have to pay $ 250 ..

If it was a Free Market then by definition, the Global Economy Trade would
move to equalize this.

I don't know how much of Foreign Trade Cycles do you all Follow, in areas of
Mfg. there is an interesting trend happening.  Mfg in the East, are now
expanding their Business in the West, thus completing a Fully Owned Supply
Chain, rather than dealing with the Middlemen.

There are many places in the world, where you can get Quality Care, as a
private patient, for a Fraction of the Cost. Talk to your Travel
Agents about 'Medical Trips' to Europe, MiddleEast and Far East I am
not talking about some underhanded / illegal visits to get organs, but
straight forward Elective Surgeriesat First Class Facilities overseas...

Remember all those H1B Visa's and all the Temp Workers in the US, who
were re-located back to their own countries after 911.Guess what, they
were not all 'Tomato Pickers', the Educated Professional (Medical
Professionals) went back home, and setup shop (Private Clinics / Hospitals)
etc. and are now wooing Non-Emergency Medical Patients.. Enjoy a
Vacation, Have your Medical Treatement, all this for less than the cost of
your Deductable (for those with a $5k or $10k deductable).

Stuff like this is part of the Self Correcting Free Market System.

Convincing American Consumers that Drugs Mfg. by American Companies, Sold in
Canada and other Parts of the World are NOT SAFE, and as such we don't allow
them in the US... Is im-proper regulation.

...


Faisal Imtiaz
Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net
Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 7:51 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance

On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly 
 run in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even 
 after all the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not
have access
 to health care?


I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue of
health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved by the
free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human right. No
person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about things like
money when it comes to basic health and wellness. The fact that even one
American (or anyone else really, but this is a US-centric list) doesn't, in
my mind represents a deep-rooted failure of the free market, and of basic
human kindness and compassion.

David Smith
MVN.net




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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Yeah.  Insurance should be for major catastrophe not every day snotty nose 
type issues.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: MDK rea...@muddyfrogwater.us
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 2:42 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance



 As business people, we should be looking at insurance for health like we 
 do
 as insurance for everything else.What's it there for?   Protect us 
 from
 catastrophe, like falling through some guy's glass skylight, or accidently
 parking the bucket truck on top of his sprinker control box and it falls
 through the lid...   Or, think of any other catastrophic accident, in 
 terms
 of cost...

 I don't know about you, but in my family, we evaluate our spending on 
 food,
 cell phones, and other stuff on a regular basis.   We have an item that 
 goes
 to pay doctor bills.I haven't had insurance in years, but we do have a
 hundreds of dollars a month budget item.   (there's 7 in the family).

 Imagine if used the insurance on the work rig to pay for having the tires
 changed, oil changed,  washed,  seat tear fixed, tuneups, and even brake
 jobs.Not only would your car insurance be stupidly high,  we'd never
 care what the places charged to do the fixing, since insurance pays.   As
 business people, we use our analytical powers to fix stuff, save money, 
 etc.

 Apply it to health insurance.You KNOW you're going to spend money on 
 it.
 Budget for it.   But use insurance only as catastrophic relief, and find
 doctors, clinics, pharmacies that give you the best deal for cash, and 
 take
 advantage of it.Since WWII, the laws concerning taxes and wage 
 controls
 provided high incentive for employers to pay for health insurance as a
 benefit to be competitive.Now, everyone expects employer to pay the 
 bill
 and health care should be free or close to it.

 Since that means YOU consume, the insurance pays, the doctor charges...
 You can fully understand why prices spiral out of control - there is no
 market forces to control prices.

 Every single payer health system in the world controls costs by simply
 deciding who can and who cannot be treated.It lacks any market forces 
 to
 make anyone or anything competitive.And we've almost done that here, 
 by
 removing the consumer from the equation.

 Imagine what kind of revenues we could generate if the government promised
 everyone broadband... the consumer used, we provided, beaurocrats pay.
 Either prices would spiral upwards wildly, or we'd start capping customers
 and limiting use to control OUR costs.

 The free market really does work.   We use it daily in our business... 
 Now
 imagine if we used it for health care, too.We know how to do that, 
 don't
 we?





 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Insurance....

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Oh boy, here we go.

Even more important is water and food.  How about electricity, 
transportation, entertainment etc. etc. etc.

NOTHING is a basic human  right past opportunity.  The CHANCE to make our 
own direction is all that God has given us.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith d...@mvn.net
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance


 On Mon, Dec 7, 2009 at 18:06, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 Someone posted earlier that the health insurance industry is not truly 
 run
 in a free market. It's failure is exactly due to this. Even after all
 the government rules and regulations, who in the USA does not have 
 access
 to health care?


 I suppose we're taking fundamentally different approaches to the issue of
 health care. I don't see it as one that can (or should) be solved by the
 free market - as far as I'm concerned, it's a fundamental human right. No
 person, anywhere on this planet, should have to worry about things like
 money when it comes to basic health and wellness. The fact that even one
 American (or anyone else really, but this is a US-centric list) doesn't, 
 in
 my mind represents a deep-rooted failure of the free market, and of basic
 human kindness and compassion.

 David Smith
 MVN.net


 
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