Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
Is there anyway to see this type of information through a Windows based computer. I would like the see the tx and rx bit rate. On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Ben West b...@gowasabi.net wrote: Yes, radios will negotiate different rx/tx rates to each other, so up to 2 distinct rates for a single link. On the open source mac80211 linux-wireless driver you can see this explicitly. The rx/tx on one radio is the tx/rx on the other. root@ap1:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 52:e6:fc:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:70 ms rx bytes:769202553 rx packets:4644034 tx bytes:326581907 tx packets:465139 tx retries:76461 tx failed:4 signal: -56 [-57, -62] dBm signal avg:-55 [-57, -62] dBm tx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 rx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no root@ap2:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 62:66:b3:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:10 ms rx bytes:569548806 rx packets:3191667 tx bytes:412571117 tx packets:490879 tx retries:104831 tx failed:1 signal: -57 [-67, -57] dBm signal avg:-55 [-62, -56] dBm tx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI rx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: In my situation, we are assuming we are dealing with a location with one and only one AP (typical home) and most devices are tablets and smartphones who's antenna's and power output can't be modified. Can be either a 1 or 2 story home. So, how much truth is in this article: http://tomatousb.org/tut:increasing-wrt54g-transmit-power The author is claiming that wifi negotiates speed (correct) but in both directions in the uplink and downlink side. He is basically claiming if you increase the power output at the AP, then the downstream (from AP to client) link rate will increase, while the uplink (Client to AP) will stay the same. This make sense, but does wifi really established a different PHY rate for up and down stream. Is this correct? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Going from 20 dB to 26 dB will allow the AP to be heard (with the same reliability) at double the distance away. Yes. If the client power (actually the client EIRP which includes the antenna gain) stays the same then the uplink distance from client to AP will still be the same. Yes, increasing the number of APs is one possible solution. Another is to use a higher-gain (more directional) antenna on the AP recognizing that when you increase the AP antenna gain in one direction, you are reducing the gain (and the coverage) in all other directions. jack On 11/13/2014 11:10 AM, Colton Conor wrote: So going from a regular powered 100mw (20db) to a high powered 400mw (26db) is a 6db increase in output power. So you are saying going from regular to high powered is a double in coverage size? Doesn't increasing the power output at the AP only increase how loud the AP can shout which in term dictates how far the receiver can hear from? If the client can't shout back does this do any good? Most client devices today like iPads, Smartphones, and some laptops can't be modified to increase their antenna gain or power output. So the only option is to increase the numbers of APs, or the transmit power/antennas at the AP right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: To double the communications distance (everything else holding steady) requires an additional 6 dB. Knowing this, you can do the math with the various antenna gains and power levels to determine performance. Regards, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Technical Consultant On 11/13/2014 10:15 AM, Colton Conor wrote: We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom chipsets. All of them have 802.11N 2x2 configuration. The only differences between them are if they have internal or external antennas and the gain of the antennas (either 2, 3, or 5dbi ratings). In addition, some sell a high powered wifi radio (400mw) while others have the basic (100mw). How much a difference does each of these hardware features make in overall wifi performance? ___ Wireless mailing listWireless@wispa.orghttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless -- Support Honest Gil Fulbright for Senatehttp://honestgil.com/#up http://honestgil.com/#up Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author (2003) - Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks Serving the WISP Community since
[WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom chipsets. All of them have 802.11N 2x2 configuration. The only differences between them are if they have internal or external antennas and the gain of the antennas (either 2, 3, or 5dbi ratings). In addition, some sell a high powered wifi radio (400mw) while others have the basic (100mw). How much a difference does each of these hardware features make in overall wifi performance? ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
To double the communications distance (everything else holding steady) requires an additional 6 dB. Knowing this, you can do the math with the various antenna gains and power levels to determine performance. Regards, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Technical Consultant On 11/13/2014 10:15 AM, Colton Conor wrote: We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom chipsets. All of them have 802.11N 2x2 configuration. The only differences between them are if they have internal or external antennas and the gain of the antennas (either 2, 3, or 5dbi ratings). In addition, some sell a high powered wifi radio (400mw) while others have the basic (100mw). How much a difference does each of these hardware features make in overall wifi performance? ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless -- Support Honest Gil Fulbright for Senate http://honestgil.com/#up Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author (2003) - "Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks" Serving the WISP Community since 1993 760-678-5033 jun...@ask-wi.com ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
Higher gain,lower power works best,in almost any situation. On Thursday, November 13, 2014 1:15 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom chipsets. All of them have 802.11N 2x2 configuration. The only differences between them are if they have internal or external antennas and the gain of the antennas (either 2, 3, or 5dbi ratings). In addition, some sell a high powered wifi radio (400mw) while others have the basic (100mw). How much a difference does each of these hardware features make in overall wifi performance? ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
On 11/13/2014 1:26 PM, Jason Bailey wrote: Higher gain,lower power works best,in almost any situation. But not necessarily in-home. Higher gain only comes from a more directive antenna. An omni gain antenna has a pancake pattern. If it's a one-story building, fine. But I ran into the opposite situation -- at my house, the AP is in the basement, and WiFi reception was poor on the second floor. So I ended up getting one of MikroTik's 951 high-power routers, and pump out maybe +21 (not its maximum -- I sit near it too much), and it reaches the upstairs much better than the lower-powered 951 (+17, maybe, with a tailwind) could do. And I've run into a lot of other people having trouble with whole-house coverage using standard-power WiFi APs. Sure, the laptop or cell phone won't have much power in it, but in general the upstream signal gets through okay. On Thursday, November 13, 2014 1:15 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom chipsets. All of them have 802.11N 2x2 configuration. The only differences between them are if they have internal or external antennas and the gain of the antennas (either 2, 3, or 5dbi ratings). In addition, some sell a high powered wifi radio (400mw) while others have the basic (100mw). How much a difference does each of these hardware features make in overall wifi performance? -- Fred R. Goldstein k1iofred at interisle.net Interisle Consulting Group +1 617 795 2701 ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
So going from a regular powered 100mw (20db) to a high powered 400mw (26db) is a 6db increase in output power. So you are saying going from regular to high powered is a double in coverage size? Doesn't increasing the power output at the AP only increase how loud the AP can shout which in term dictates how far the receiver can hear from? If the client can't shout back does this do any good? Most client devices today like iPads, Smartphones, and some laptops can't be modified to increase their antenna gain or power output. So the only option is to increase the numbers of APs, or the transmit power/antennas at the AP right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: To double the communications distance (everything else holding steady) requires an additional 6 dB. Knowing this, you can do the math with the various antenna gains and power levels to determine performance. Regards, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Technical Consultant On 11/13/2014 10:15 AM, Colton Conor wrote: We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom chipsets. All of them have 802.11N 2x2 configuration. The only differences between them are if they have internal or external antennas and the gain of the antennas (either 2, 3, or 5dbi ratings). In addition, some sell a high powered wifi radio (400mw) while others have the basic (100mw). How much a difference does each of these hardware features make in overall wifi performance? ___ Wireless mailing listWireless@wispa.orghttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless -- Support Honest Gil Fulbright for Senatehttp://honestgil.com/#up http://honestgil.com/#up Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author (2003) - Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks Serving the WISP Community since 1993760-678-5033 jun...@ask-wi.com ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
You have the right idea. It is only when you increase power on both ends that the distance increases. Tablets in particular only have about 10 - 15 mW radios so that is the lowest common denominator. If you have radios with removable antennas, you can sometimes use different antennas to improve your coverage. I found some dual band omnis for like $8 each that were rated 7 dB. I'm seeing a 9 dB improvement on 2.4 GHz, but only about 3 dB on 5 GHz. Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE DROID Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
Going from 20 dB to 26 dB will allow the AP to be heard (with the same reliability) at double the distance away. Yes. If the client power (actually the client EIRP which includes the antenna gain) stays the same then the "uplink" distance from client to AP will still be the same. Yes, increasing the number of APs is one possible solution. Another is to use a higher-gain (more directional) antenna on the AP recognizing that when you increase the AP antenna gain in one direction, you are reducing the gain (and the coverage) in all other directions. jack On 11/13/2014 11:10 AM, Colton Conor wrote: So going from a regular powered 100mw (20db) to a high powered 400mw (26db) is a 6db increase in output power. So you are saying going from regular to high powered is a double in coverage size? Doesn't increasing the power output at the AP only increase how loud the AP can "shout" which in term dictates how far the receiver can hear from? If the client can't shout back does this do any good? Most client devices today like iPads, Smartphones, and some laptops can't be modified to increase their antenna gain or power output. So the only option is to increase the numbers of APs, or the transmit power/antennas at the AP right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: To double the communications distance (everything else holding steady) requires an additional 6 dB. Knowing this, you can do the math with the various antenna gains and power levels to determine performance. Regards, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Technical Consultant On 11/13/2014 10:15 AM, Colton Conor wrote: We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom chipsets. All of them have 802.11N 2x2 configuration. The only differences between them are if they have internal or external antennas and the gain of the antennas (either 2, 3, or 5dbi ratings). In addition, some sell a high powered wifi radio (400mw) while others have the basic (100mw). How much a difference does each of these hardware features make in overall wifi performance? ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless -- Support Honest Gil Fulbright for Senate http://honestgil.com/#up Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author (2003) - "Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks" Serving the WISP Community since 1993 760-678-5033 jun...@ask-wi.com ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless -- Support Honest Gil Fulbright for Senate http://honestgil.com/#up Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author (2003) - "Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks" Serving the WISP Community since 1993 760-678-5033 jun...@ask-wi.com ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
In my situation, we are assuming we are dealing with a location with one and only one AP (typical home) and most devices are tablets and smartphones who's antenna's and power output can't be modified. Can be either a 1 or 2 story home. So, how much truth is in this article: http://tomatousb.org/tut:increasing-wrt54g-transmit-power The author is claiming that wifi negotiates speed (correct) but in both directions in the uplink and downlink side. He is basically claiming if you increase the power output at the AP, then the downstream (from AP to client) link rate will increase, while the uplink (Client to AP) will stay the same. This make sense, but does wifi really established a different PHY rate for up and down stream. Is this correct? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Going from 20 dB to 26 dB will allow the AP to be heard (with the same reliability) at double the distance away. Yes. If the client power (actually the client EIRP which includes the antenna gain) stays the same then the uplink distance from client to AP will still be the same. Yes, increasing the number of APs is one possible solution. Another is to use a higher-gain (more directional) antenna on the AP recognizing that when you increase the AP antenna gain in one direction, you are reducing the gain (and the coverage) in all other directions. jack On 11/13/2014 11:10 AM, Colton Conor wrote: So going from a regular powered 100mw (20db) to a high powered 400mw (26db) is a 6db increase in output power. So you are saying going from regular to high powered is a double in coverage size? Doesn't increasing the power output at the AP only increase how loud the AP can shout which in term dictates how far the receiver can hear from? If the client can't shout back does this do any good? Most client devices today like iPads, Smartphones, and some laptops can't be modified to increase their antenna gain or power output. So the only option is to increase the numbers of APs, or the transmit power/antennas at the AP right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: To double the communications distance (everything else holding steady) requires an additional 6 dB. Knowing this, you can do the math with the various antenna gains and power levels to determine performance. Regards, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Technical Consultant On 11/13/2014 10:15 AM, Colton Conor wrote: We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom chipsets. All of them have 802.11N 2x2 configuration. The only differences between them are if they have internal or external antennas and the gain of the antennas (either 2, 3, or 5dbi ratings). In addition, some sell a high powered wifi radio (400mw) while others have the basic (100mw). How much a difference does each of these hardware features make in overall wifi performance? ___ Wireless mailing listWireless@wispa.orghttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless -- Support Honest Gil Fulbright for Senatehttp://honestgil.com/#up http://honestgil.com/#up Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author (2003) - Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks Serving the WISP Community since 1993760-678-5033 jun...@ask-wi.com ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing listWireless@wispa.orghttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless -- Support Honest Gil Fulbright for Senatehttp://honestgil.com/#up http://honestgil.com/#up Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author (2003) - Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks Serving the WISP Community since 1993760-678-5033 jun...@ask-wi.com ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
Yes, radios will negotiate different rx/tx rates to each other, so up to 2 distinct rates for a single link. On the open source mac80211 linux-wireless driver you can see this explicitly. The rx/tx on one radio is the tx/rx on the other. root@ap1:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 52:e6:fc:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:70 ms rx bytes:769202553 rx packets:4644034 tx bytes:326581907 tx packets:465139 tx retries:76461 tx failed:4 signal: -56 [-57, -62] dBm signal avg:-55 [-57, -62] dBm tx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 rx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no root@ap2:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 62:66:b3:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:10 ms rx bytes:569548806 rx packets:3191667 tx bytes:412571117 tx packets:490879 tx retries:104831 tx failed:1 signal: -57 [-67, -57] dBm signal avg:-55 [-62, -56] dBm tx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI rx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: In my situation, we are assuming we are dealing with a location with one and only one AP (typical home) and most devices are tablets and smartphones who's antenna's and power output can't be modified. Can be either a 1 or 2 story home. So, how much truth is in this article: http://tomatousb.org/tut:increasing-wrt54g-transmit-power The author is claiming that wifi negotiates speed (correct) but in both directions in the uplink and downlink side. He is basically claiming if you increase the power output at the AP, then the downstream (from AP to client) link rate will increase, while the uplink (Client to AP) will stay the same. This make sense, but does wifi really established a different PHY rate for up and down stream. Is this correct? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Going from 20 dB to 26 dB will allow the AP to be heard (with the same reliability) at double the distance away. Yes. If the client power (actually the client EIRP which includes the antenna gain) stays the same then the uplink distance from client to AP will still be the same. Yes, increasing the number of APs is one possible solution. Another is to use a higher-gain (more directional) antenna on the AP recognizing that when you increase the AP antenna gain in one direction, you are reducing the gain (and the coverage) in all other directions. jack On 11/13/2014 11:10 AM, Colton Conor wrote: So going from a regular powered 100mw (20db) to a high powered 400mw (26db) is a 6db increase in output power. So you are saying going from regular to high powered is a double in coverage size? Doesn't increasing the power output at the AP only increase how loud the AP can shout which in term dictates how far the receiver can hear from? If the client can't shout back does this do any good? Most client devices today like iPads, Smartphones, and some laptops can't be modified to increase their antenna gain or power output. So the only option is to increase the numbers of APs, or the transmit power/antennas at the AP right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: To double the communications distance (everything else holding steady) requires an additional 6 dB. Knowing this, you can do the math with the various antenna gains and power levels to determine performance. Regards, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Technical Consultant On 11/13/2014 10:15 AM, Colton Conor wrote: We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom chipsets. All of them have 802.11N 2x2 configuration. The only differences between them are if they have internal or external antennas and the gain of the antennas (either 2, 3, or 5dbi ratings). In addition, some sell a high powered wifi radio (400mw) while others have the basic (100mw). How much a difference does each of these hardware features make in overall wifi performance? ___ Wireless mailing listWireless@wispa.orghttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless -- Support Honest Gil Fulbright for Senatehttp://honestgil.com/#up http://honestgil.com/#up Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Author (2003) - Deploying License-Free Wireless Wide-Area Networks Serving the WISP Community since 1993760-678-5033 jun...@ask-wi.com ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
Awesome, I am already learning so much from this mailing list. So it sound like the author was right. So boosting the power output on the AP will more than likely boost the TX (downlink) speed on the AP side, but do nothing on the RX speed side of the AP since nothing from the clients sending perspective has changed right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Ben West b...@gowasabi.net wrote: Yes, radios will negotiate different rx/tx rates to each other, so up to 2 distinct rates for a single link. On the open source mac80211 linux-wireless driver you can see this explicitly. The rx/tx on one radio is the tx/rx on the other. root@ap1:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 52:e6:fc:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:70 ms rx bytes:769202553 rx packets:4644034 tx bytes:326581907 tx packets:465139 tx retries:76461 tx failed:4 signal: -56 [-57, -62] dBm signal avg:-55 [-57, -62] dBm tx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 rx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no root@ap2:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 62:66:b3:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:10 ms rx bytes:569548806 rx packets:3191667 tx bytes:412571117 tx packets:490879 tx retries:104831 tx failed:1 signal: -57 [-67, -57] dBm signal avg:-55 [-62, -56] dBm tx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI rx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: In my situation, we are assuming we are dealing with a location with one and only one AP (typical home) and most devices are tablets and smartphones who's antenna's and power output can't be modified. Can be either a 1 or 2 story home. So, how much truth is in this article: http://tomatousb.org/tut:increasing-wrt54g-transmit-power The author is claiming that wifi negotiates speed (correct) but in both directions in the uplink and downlink side. He is basically claiming if you increase the power output at the AP, then the downstream (from AP to client) link rate will increase, while the uplink (Client to AP) will stay the same. This make sense, but does wifi really established a different PHY rate for up and down stream. Is this correct? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Going from 20 dB to 26 dB will allow the AP to be heard (with the same reliability) at double the distance away. Yes. If the client power (actually the client EIRP which includes the antenna gain) stays the same then the uplink distance from client to AP will still be the same. Yes, increasing the number of APs is one possible solution. Another is to use a higher-gain (more directional) antenna on the AP recognizing that when you increase the AP antenna gain in one direction, you are reducing the gain (and the coverage) in all other directions. jack On 11/13/2014 11:10 AM, Colton Conor wrote: So going from a regular powered 100mw (20db) to a high powered 400mw (26db) is a 6db increase in output power. So you are saying going from regular to high powered is a double in coverage size? Doesn't increasing the power output at the AP only increase how loud the AP can shout which in term dictates how far the receiver can hear from? If the client can't shout back does this do any good? Most client devices today like iPads, Smartphones, and some laptops can't be modified to increase their antenna gain or power output. So the only option is to increase the numbers of APs, or the transmit power/antennas at the AP right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: To double the communications distance (everything else holding steady) requires an additional 6 dB. Knowing this, you can do the math with the various antenna gains and power levels to determine performance. Regards, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Technical Consultant On 11/13/2014 10:15 AM, Colton Conor wrote: We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom chipsets. All of them have 802.11N 2x2 configuration. The only differences between them are if they have internal or external antennas and the gain of the antennas (either 2, 3, or 5dbi ratings). In addition, some sell a high powered wifi radio (400mw) while others have the basic (100mw). How much a difference does each of these hardware features make in overall wifi performance? ___ Wireless mailing listWireless@wispa.orghttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless -- Support Honest Gil Fulbright for
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
You are correct. It never will. Rx can only be improved by a bigger antenna to listen with. Antenna gain always has and will be better than raw power. Unless you include the other side's Tx, in which case more power and gain will help. In the Wifi world you're totally screwed because it's a terrible laptop/phone/game console/tablet/etc in which case you can't do ANYTHING to their devices. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: Awesome, I am already learning so much from this mailing list. So it sound like the author was right. So boosting the power output on the AP will more than likely boost the TX (downlink) speed on the AP side, but do nothing on the RX speed side of the AP since nothing from the clients sending perspective has changed right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Ben West b...@gowasabi.net wrote: Yes, radios will negotiate different rx/tx rates to each other, so up to 2 distinct rates for a single link. On the open source mac80211 linux-wireless driver you can see this explicitly. The rx/tx on one radio is the tx/rx on the other. root@ap1:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 52:e6:fc:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:70 ms rx bytes:769202553 rx packets:4644034 tx bytes:326581907 tx packets:465139 tx retries:76461 tx failed:4 signal: -56 [-57, -62] dBm signal avg:-55 [-57, -62] dBm tx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 rx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no root@ap2:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 62:66:b3:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:10 ms rx bytes:569548806 rx packets:3191667 tx bytes:412571117 tx packets:490879 tx retries:104831 tx failed:1 signal: -57 [-67, -57] dBm signal avg:-55 [-62, -56] dBm tx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI rx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: In my situation, we are assuming we are dealing with a location with one and only one AP (typical home) and most devices are tablets and smartphones who's antenna's and power output can't be modified. Can be either a 1 or 2 story home. So, how much truth is in this article: http://tomatousb.org/tut:increasing-wrt54g-transmit-power The author is claiming that wifi negotiates speed (correct) but in both directions in the uplink and downlink side. He is basically claiming if you increase the power output at the AP, then the downstream (from AP to client) link rate will increase, while the uplink (Client to AP) will stay the same. This make sense, but does wifi really established a different PHY rate for up and down stream. Is this correct? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Going from 20 dB to 26 dB will allow the AP to be heard (with the same reliability) at double the distance away. Yes. If the client power (actually the client EIRP which includes the antenna gain) stays the same then the uplink distance from client to AP will still be the same. Yes, increasing the number of APs is one possible solution. Another is to use a higher-gain (more directional) antenna on the AP recognizing that when you increase the AP antenna gain in one direction, you are reducing the gain (and the coverage) in all other directions. jack On 11/13/2014 11:10 AM, Colton Conor wrote: So going from a regular powered 100mw (20db) to a high powered 400mw (26db) is a 6db increase in output power. So you are saying going from regular to high powered is a double in coverage size? Doesn't increasing the power output at the AP only increase how loud the AP can shout which in term dictates how far the receiver can hear from? If the client can't shout back does this do any good? Most client devices today like iPads, Smartphones, and some laptops can't be modified to increase their antenna gain or power output. So the only option is to increase the numbers of APs, or the transmit power/antennas at the AP right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 12:25 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: To double the communications distance (everything else holding steady) requires an additional 6 dB. Knowing this, you can do the math with the various antenna gains and power levels to determine performance. Regards, Jack Unger WISPA FCC Technical Consultant On 11/13/2014 10:15 AM, Colton Conor wrote: We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
Depending on how fancy Broadcom's 802.11 implementation is in devices being tested, there is also the Transmit Power Control (TPC) feature of 802.11h, although that is normally (exclusively?) intended for 5.8GHz band, i.e. as part of DFS. More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11h-2003 If the AP and client both support it, you may see the radio driver (on Linux clients) emit status messages like this, which was observed in the wild on a university's WLAN: wlan0: Limiting TX power to 14 dBm as advertised by a0:cf:5b:3f:xx:xx wlan0: Limiting TX power to 5 dBm as advertised by 64:ae:0c:c5:xx:xx In theory, such a feature would let the AP tell especially loud clients to quiet down, so as not to drown out the weaker ones. But, it would only work for APs and clients which support this feature, and have it enabled. My guess is this feature is only available in the pricier enterprise-class APs (e.g. Cisco). On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:41 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote: You are correct. It never will. Rx can only be improved by a bigger antenna to listen with. Antenna gain always has and will be better than raw power. Unless you include the other side's Tx, in which case more power and gain will help. In the Wifi world you're totally screwed because it's a terrible laptop/phone/game console/tablet/etc in which case you can't do ANYTHING to their devices. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: Awesome, I am already learning so much from this mailing list. So it sound like the author was right. So boosting the power output on the AP will more than likely boost the TX (downlink) speed on the AP side, but do nothing on the RX speed side of the AP since nothing from the clients sending perspective has changed right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Ben West b...@gowasabi.net wrote: Yes, radios will negotiate different rx/tx rates to each other, so up to 2 distinct rates for a single link. On the open source mac80211 linux-wireless driver you can see this explicitly. The rx/tx on one radio is the tx/rx on the other. root@ap1:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 52:e6:fc:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:70 ms rx bytes:769202553 rx packets:4644034 tx bytes:326581907 tx packets:465139 tx retries:76461 tx failed:4 signal: -56 [-57, -62] dBm signal avg:-55 [-57, -62] dBm tx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 rx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no root@ap2:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 62:66:b3:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:10 ms rx bytes:569548806 rx packets:3191667 tx bytes:412571117 tx packets:490879 tx retries:104831 tx failed:1 signal: -57 [-67, -57] dBm signal avg:-55 [-62, -56] dBm tx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI rx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: In my situation, we are assuming we are dealing with a location with one and only one AP (typical home) and most devices are tablets and smartphones who's antenna's and power output can't be modified. Can be either a 1 or 2 story home. So, how much truth is in this article: http://tomatousb.org/tut:increasing-wrt54g-transmit-power The author is claiming that wifi negotiates speed (correct) but in both directions in the uplink and downlink side. He is basically claiming if you increase the power output at the AP, then the downstream (from AP to client) link rate will increase, while the uplink (Client to AP) will stay the same. This make sense, but does wifi really established a different PHY rate for up and down stream. Is this correct? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Going from 20 dB to 26 dB will allow the AP to be heard (with the same reliability) at double the distance away. Yes. If the client power (actually the client EIRP which includes the antenna gain) stays the same then the uplink distance from client to AP will still be the same. Yes, increasing the number of APs is one possible solution. Another is to use a higher-gain (more directional) antenna on the AP recognizing that when you increase the AP antenna gain in one direction, you are reducing the gain (and the coverage) in all other directions. jack On 11/13/2014 11:10 AM, Colton Conor wrote: So going from a regular powered 100mw (20db) to a high powered 400mw (26db) is a 6db increase
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
I second what Josh is saying. I build out a lot of hotels and large offices, and because of iPhones and iPads, we've started doubling up on the AP's we normally would deploy. In an indoor environment, it's really tough to do a very directional antenna because you are usually trying to cover a 360 deg area, so high power AP's, low gain antennas, and more AP's is usually the best approach. That being said, I'm curious about your specific choice of Broadcom radios in your first post. Usually that means you are trying to utilize custom firmware such as DD-WRT or Sputnik, etc. Is this the case? If so, it would be interesting to hear what you are trying to accomplish. I've played with many of those for a long time, until I really saw the capability and power of the Unifi, and stopped messing around with anything else. Just curious as Broadcom is not a radio chipset you hear much about on this list. Thanks, *Ryan McKenzie Office 385-215-WIFI Cell 801-309-6161 * On 11/13/14 4:41 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: You are correct. It never will. Rx can only be improved by a bigger antenna to listen with. Antenna gain always has and will be better than raw power. Unless you include the other side's Tx, in which case more power and gain will help. In the Wifi world you're totally screwed because it's a terrible laptop/phone/game console/tablet/etc in which case you can't do ANYTHING to their devices. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 tel:937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 tel:937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com mailto:colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: Awesome, I am already learning so much from this mailing list. So it sound like the author was right. So boosting the power output on the AP will more than likely boost the TX (downlink) speed on the AP side, but do nothing on the RX speed side of the AP since nothing from the clients sending perspective has changed right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Ben West b...@gowasabi.net mailto:b...@gowasabi.net wrote: Yes, radios will negotiate different rx/tx rates to each other, so up to 2 distinct rates for a single link. On the open source mac80211 linux-wireless driver you can see this explicitly. The rx/tx on one radio is the tx/rx on the other. root@ap1:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 52:e6:fc:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:70 ms rx bytes:769202553 rx packets:4644034 tx bytes:326581907 tx packets:465139 tx retries:76461 tx failed:4 signal: -56 [-57, -62] dBm signal avg:-55 [-57, -62] dBm tx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 rx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no root@ap2:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 62:66:b3:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:10 ms rx bytes:569548806 rx packets:3191667 tx bytes:412571117 tx packets:490879 tx retries:104831 tx failed:1 signal: -57 [-67, -57] dBm signal avg:-55 [-62, -56] dBm tx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI rx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com mailto:colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: In my situation, we are assuming we are dealing with a location with one and only one AP (typical home) and most devices are tablets and smartphones who's antenna's and power output can't be modified. Can be either a 1 or 2 story home. So, how much truth is in this article: http://tomatousb.org/tut:increasing-wrt54g-transmit-power The author is claiming that wifi negotiates speed (correct) but in both directions in the uplink and downlink side. He is basically claiming if you increase the power output at the AP, then the downstream (from AP to client) link rate will increase, while the uplink (Client to AP) will stay the same. This make sense, but does wifi really established a different PHY rate for up and down stream. Is this correct? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Jack Unger jun...@ask-wi.com mailto:jun...@ask-wi.com wrote: Going from 20 dB
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
All of the UBNT AC products use broadcom. On 11/13/2014 02:59 PM, Ryan McKenzie wrote: I second what Josh is saying. I build out a lot of hotels and large offices, and because of iPhones and iPads, we've started doubling up on the AP's we normally would deploy. In an indoor environment, it's really tough to do a very directional antenna because you are usually trying to cover a 360 deg area, so high power AP's, low gain antennas, and more AP's is usually the best approach. That being said, I'm curious about your specific choice of Broadcom radios in your first post. Usually that means you are trying to utilize custom firmware such as DD-WRT or Sputnik, etc. Is this the case? If so, it would be interesting to hear what you are trying to accomplish. I've played with many of those for a long time, until I really saw the capability and power of the Unifi, and stopped messing around with anything else. Just curious as Broadcom is not a radio chipset you hear much about on this list. Thanks, *Ryan McKenzie Office 385-215-WIFI Cell 801-309-6161 * On 11/13/14 4:41 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: You are correct. It never will. Rx can only be improved by a bigger antenna to listen with. Antenna gain always has and will be better than raw power. Unless you include the other side's Tx, in which case more power and gain will help. In the Wifi world you're totally screwed because it's a terrible laptop/phone/game console/tablet/etc in which case you can't do ANYTHING to their devices. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 tel:937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 tel:937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com mailto:colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: Awesome, I am already learning so much from this mailing list. So it sound like the author was right. So boosting the power output on the AP will more than likely boost the TX (downlink) speed on the AP side, but do nothing on the RX speed side of the AP since nothing from the clients sending perspective has changed right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Ben West b...@gowasabi.net mailto:b...@gowasabi.net wrote: Yes, radios will negotiate different rx/tx rates to each other, so up to 2 distinct rates for a single link. On the open source mac80211 linux-wireless driver you can see this explicitly. The rx/tx on one radio is the tx/rx on the other. root@ap1:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 52:e6:fc:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:70 ms rx bytes:769202553 rx packets:4644034 tx bytes:326581907 tx packets:465139 tx retries:76461 tx failed:4 signal: -56 [-57, -62] dBm signal avg:-55 [-57, -62] dBm tx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 rx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no root@ap2:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 62:66:b3:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:10 ms rx bytes:569548806 rx packets:3191667 tx bytes:412571117 tx packets:490879 tx retries:104831 tx failed:1 signal: -57 [-67, -57] dBm signal avg:-55 [-62, -56] dBm tx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI rx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com mailto:colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: In my situation, we are assuming we are dealing with a location with one and only one AP (typical home) and most devices are tablets and smartphones who's antenna's and power output can't be modified. Can be either a 1 or 2 story home. So, how much truth is in this article: http://tomatousb.org/tut:increasing-wrt54g-transmit-power The author is claiming that wifi negotiates speed (correct) but in both directions in the uplink and downlink side. He is basically claiming if you increase the power output at the AP, then the downstream (from AP to client) link rate will increase, while the uplink (Client to AP) will stay the same. This make sense, but does wifi really established a different PHY rate for up and down stream. Is this correct? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:09 PM, Jack Unger
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
We are deploying a DSL network, and Broadcom is the leader in the DSL chipset market. So most all these modems we are using have a Broadcom SoC design with the VDSL2 modem, 802.11N 2x2 MIMO, Ethernet Switch, and CPU all built in. The only thing the modem manufacturers change is the power output on the Broadcom wifi (via a amp on the broad) and the selection of internal or external omni antennas for the most part. Plus some tweak the wifi settings. We are trying to decide if it is worth the small price premium to pay for the modem that has the high powered amp at 400mw vs the regular ones that only have 100mw. Sounds like the the high powered ones are worth it especially since we have no control of the clients devices (I guess you rarely ever do anyways) and we are only supplying one AP/router per home. I guess this is why ATT uverse gets such good ratings and reviews from their customers on wifi? They are using 2Wire/Pace modems for the most part that have all high powered wifi. Thats why in an ATT area you can see tons of them. On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:59 PM, Ryan McKenzie r...@lirr.net wrote: I second what Josh is saying. I build out a lot of hotels and large offices, and because of iPhones and iPads, we've started doubling up on the AP's we normally would deploy. In an indoor environment, it's really tough to do a very directional antenna because you are usually trying to cover a 360 deg area, so high power AP's, low gain antennas, and more AP's is usually the best approach. That being said, I'm curious about your specific choice of Broadcom radios in your first post. Usually that means you are trying to utilize custom firmware such as DD-WRT or Sputnik, etc. Is this the case? If so, it would be interesting to hear what you are trying to accomplish. I've played with many of those for a long time, until I really saw the capability and power of the Unifi, and stopped messing around with anything else. Just curious as Broadcom is not a radio chipset you hear much about on this list. Thanks, *Ryan McKenzie Office 385-215-WIFI Cell 801-309-6161 801-309-6161 * On 11/13/14 4:41 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: You are correct. It never will. Rx can only be improved by a bigger antenna to listen with. Antenna gain always has and will be better than raw power. Unless you include the other side's Tx, in which case more power and gain will help. In the Wifi world you're totally screwed because it's a terrible laptop/phone/game console/tablet/etc in which case you can't do ANYTHING to their devices. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: Awesome, I am already learning so much from this mailing list. So it sound like the author was right. So boosting the power output on the AP will more than likely boost the TX (downlink) speed on the AP side, but do nothing on the RX speed side of the AP since nothing from the clients sending perspective has changed right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Ben West b...@gowasabi.net wrote: Yes, radios will negotiate different rx/tx rates to each other, so up to 2 distinct rates for a single link. On the open source mac80211 linux-wireless driver you can see this explicitly. The rx/tx on one radio is the tx/rx on the other. root@ap1:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 52:e6:fc:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:70 ms rx bytes:769202553 rx packets:4644034 tx bytes:326581907 tx packets:465139 tx retries:76461 tx failed:4 signal: -56 [-57, -62] dBm signal avg:-55 [-57, -62] dBm tx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 rx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no root@ap2:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 62:66:b3:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:10 ms rx bytes:569548806 rx packets:3191667 tx bytes:412571117 tx packets:490879 tx retries:104831 tx failed:1 signal: -57 [-67, -57] dBm signal avg:-55 [-62, -56] dBm tx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI rx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: In my situation, we are assuming we are dealing with a location with one and only one AP (typical home) and most devices are tablets and smartphones who's antenna's and power output can't be modified. Can be either a 1 or 2 story home. So, how much truth is in this article: http://tomatousb.org/tut:increasing-wrt54g-transmit-power The author is claiming that wifi
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
A little caution ... transmit power does not necessarily equate to speed. Speed is a combination of signal strength, signal quality (lack of noise or interference) and distance. And doubling the output power will not result in double the speed. Transmit power will give you further distance, but depending on the other factors above and the client output power you may not see any gain in distance. From: Colton Conor Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 4:42 PM To: r...@sbnettech.com ; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw We are deploying a DSL network, and Broadcom is the leader in the DSL chipset market. So most all these modems we are using have a Broadcom SoC design with the VDSL2 modem, 802.11N 2x2 MIMO, Ethernet Switch, and CPU all built in. The only thing the modem manufacturers change is the power output on the Broadcom wifi (via a amp on the broad) and the selection of internal or external omni antennas for the most part. Plus some tweak the wifi settings. We are trying to decide if it is worth the small price premium to pay for the modem that has the high powered amp at 400mw vs the regular ones that only have 100mw. Sounds like the the high powered ones are worth it especially since we have no control of the clients devices (I guess you rarely ever do anyways) and we are only supplying one AP/router per home. I guess this is why ATT uverse gets such good ratings and reviews from their customers on wifi? They are using 2Wire/Pace modems for the most part that have all high powered wifi. Thats why in an ATT area you can see tons of them. On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:59 PM, Ryan McKenzie r...@lirr.net wrote: I second what Josh is saying. I build out a lot of hotels and large offices, and because of iPhones and iPads, we've started doubling up on the AP's we normally would deploy. In an indoor environment, it's really tough to do a very directional antenna because you are usually trying to cover a 360 deg area, so high power AP's, low gain antennas, and more AP's is usually the best approach. That being said, I'm curious about your specific choice of Broadcom radios in your first post. Usually that means you are trying to utilize custom firmware such as DD-WRT or Sputnik, etc. Is this the case? If so, it would be interesting to hear what you are trying to accomplish. I've played with many of those for a long time, until I really saw the capability and power of the Unifi, and stopped messing around with anything else. Just curious as Broadcom is not a radio chipset you hear much about on this list. Thanks, Ryan McKenzie Office 385-215-WIFI Cell 801-309-6161 On 11/13/14 4:41 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: You are correct. It never will. Rx can only be improved by a bigger antenna to listen with. Antenna gain always has and will be better than raw power. Unless you include the other side's Tx, in which case more power and gain will help. In the Wifi world you're totally screwed because it's a terrible laptop/phone/game console/tablet/etc in which case you can't do ANYTHING to their devices. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: Awesome, I am already learning so much from this mailing list. So it sound like the author was right. So boosting the power output on the AP will more than likely boost the TX (downlink) speed on the AP side, but do nothing on the RX speed side of the AP since nothing from the clients sending perspective has changed right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Ben West b...@gowasabi.net wrote: Yes, radios will negotiate different rx/tx rates to each other, so up to 2 distinct rates for a single link. On the open source mac80211 linux-wireless driver you can see this explicitly. The rx/tx on one radio is the tx/rx on the other. root@ap1:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 52:e6:fc:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:70 ms rx bytes:769202553 rx packets:4644034 tx bytes:326581907 tx packets:465139 tx retries:76461 tx failed:4 signal: -56 [-57, -62] dBm signal avg:-55 [-57, -62] dBm tx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 rx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes MFP:no TDLS peer:no root@ap2:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 62:66:b3:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:10 ms rx bytes:569548806 rx packets:3191667 tx bytes:412571117 tx packets
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
Tim, Yes, I understand that. I understand the factors that have to be enabled for the PHY rate to be the full 300Mbps that 802.11N 2x2 configuration allows for. You have to use 40Mhz band, short guards, and both AP and client have to have 2x2 setup. What I am talking about here is trying to improve signal strength which increases speed. On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 7:00 PM, Tim Kerns t...@cv-access.com wrote: A little caution ... transmit power does not necessarily equate to speed. Speed is a combination of signal strength, signal quality (lack of noise or interference) and distance. And doubling the output power will not result in double the speed. Transmit power will give you further distance, but depending on the other factors above and the client output power you may not see any gain in distance. *From:* Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com *Sent:* Thursday, November 13, 2014 4:42 PM *To:* r...@sbnettech.com ; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw We are deploying a DSL network, and Broadcom is the leader in the DSL chipset market. So most all these modems we are using have a Broadcom SoC design with the VDSL2 modem, 802.11N 2x2 MIMO, Ethernet Switch, and CPU all built in. The only thing the modem manufacturers change is the power output on the Broadcom wifi (via a amp on the broad) and the selection of internal or external omni antennas for the most part. Plus some tweak the wifi settings. We are trying to decide if it is worth the small price premium to pay for the modem that has the high powered amp at 400mw vs the regular ones that only have 100mw. Sounds like the the high powered ones are worth it especially since we have no control of the clients devices (I guess you rarely ever do anyways) and we are only supplying one AP/router per home. I guess this is why ATT uverse gets such good ratings and reviews from their customers on wifi? They are using 2Wire/Pace modems for the most part that have all high powered wifi. Thats why in an ATT area you can see tons of them. On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 5:59 PM, Ryan McKenzie r...@lirr.net wrote: I second what Josh is saying. I build out a lot of hotels and large offices, and because of iPhones and iPads, we've started doubling up on the AP's we normally would deploy. In an indoor environment, it's really tough to do a very directional antenna because you are usually trying to cover a 360 deg area, so high power AP's, low gain antennas, and more AP's is usually the best approach. That being said, I'm curious about your specific choice of Broadcom radios in your first post. Usually that means you are trying to utilize custom firmware such as DD-WRT or Sputnik, etc. Is this the case? If so, it would be interesting to hear what you are trying to accomplish. I've played with many of those for a long time, until I really saw the capability and power of the Unifi, and stopped messing around with anything else. Just curious as Broadcom is not a radio chipset you hear much about on this list. Thanks, *Ryan McKenzieOffice 385-215-WIFICell 801-309-6161 801-309-6161* On 11/13/14 4:41 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: You are correct. It never will. Rx can only be improved by a bigger antenna to listen with. Antenna gain always has and will be better than raw power. Unless you include the other side's Tx, in which case more power and gain will help. In the Wifi world you're totally screwed because it's a terrible laptop/phone/game console/tablet/etc in which case you can't do ANYTHING to their devices. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 6:34 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: Awesome, I am already learning so much from this mailing list. So it sound like the author was right. So boosting the power output on the AP will more than likely boost the TX (downlink) speed on the AP side, but do nothing on the RX speed side of the AP since nothing from the clients sending perspective has changed right? On Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 3:43 PM, Ben West b...@gowasabi.net wrote: Yes, radios will negotiate different rx/tx rates to each other, so up to 2 distinct rates for a single link. On the open source mac80211 linux-wireless driver you can see this explicitly. The rx/tx on one radio is the tx/rx on the other. root@ap1:~# iw wlan0 station dump Station 52:e6:fc:XX:XX:XX (on wlan0) inactive time:70 ms rx bytes:769202553 rx packets:4644034 tx bytes:326581907 tx packets:465139 tx retries:76461 tx failed:4 signal: -56 [-57, -62] dBm signal avg:-55 [-57, -62] dBm tx bitrate:117.0 MBit/s MCS 14 rx bitrate:86.7 MBit/s MCS 12 short GI authorized:yes authenticated:yes preamble:long WMM/WME:yes
Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw
Hell, you could use an SXT and go as high as you want. ;-) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Fred Goldstein f...@interisle.net To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2014 1:07:20 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] 2dbi vs 3dbi vs 5 dbi vs 100mw vs 400mw On 11/13/2014 1:26 PM, Jason Bailey wrote: Higher gain,lower power works best,in almost any situation. But not necessarily in-home. Higher gain only comes from a more directive antenna. An omni gain antenna has a pancake pattern. If it's a one-story building, fine. But I ran into the opposite situation -- at my house, the AP is in the basement, and WiFi reception was poor on the second floor. So I ended up getting one of MikroTik's 951 high-power routers, and pump out maybe +21 (not its maximum -- I sit near it too much), and it reaches the upstairs much better than the lower-powered 951 (+17, maybe, with a tailwind) could do. And I've run into a lot of other people having trouble with whole-house coverage using standard-power WiFi APs. Sure, the laptop or cell phone won't have much power in it, but in general the upstream signal gets through okay. blockquote On Thursday, November 13, 2014 1:15 PM, Colton Conor colton.co...@gmail.com wrote: We are comparing multiple SOHO routers and modems that have the same Broadcom chipsets. All of them have 802.11N 2x2 configuration. The only differences between them are if they have internal or external antennas and the gain of the antennas (either 2, 3, or 5dbi ratings). In addition, some sell a high powered wifi radio (400mw) while others have the basic (100mw). How much a difference does each of these hardware features make in overall wifi performance? /blockquote -- Fred R. Goldstein k1iofred at interisle.net Interisle Consulting Group +1 617 795 2701 ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
