RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Jon, When it's WiMAX they'll be using OFDM and their current older modulation techniques will be out the window...reliable pipes are being sold every day on BreezeAccess VL with and without voip. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Hey Brad, VOIP may be the only thing canopy is lagging in. I'm curious if they'll improve that in the version 8 software release or at least when they move toward WIMAX compatibility. In the mean time I'm more concerned with providing reliable pipes... Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Brad Larson wrote: Jon, Canopy is not fast enough for many now and voip performance is lacking. Depending on the circumstance you may be right for many but the times are changing very quickly. There are more and more projects hitting the streets where you don't even make the cut if you can't pass the higher data traffic or support more than 25 voip calls per sector. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage. As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to solve... -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(192). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Travis, That is a very good point. And one of the reasons that I'm trying so hard to stick with Trango. Using something else other than Trango for me, is almost like cheating on my wife. But there is a slight difference in modifying each of the two. Modifing a Trango unit, also may infringe on patent rights with the manufacturer, or cause unrealised RF emmissions that would cause a radio to fail FCC tests. There are also risks involved in damaging the radio due to more detailed soldering, compromising things like field repairabilty. A StarOS system is likely a certifiable system, if it is decided to in the future to go through the beaurocracy of the certification process. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 1:20 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Tom, You won't customize a Fox unit because it's not FCC compliant, yet you are running StarOS on WAR boards which is also not FCC compliant. ;) Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: The answer to your question is that there is not a preferred option. In some cases I don't have an option and just lose the prospect (as unservable). The industry is in a stagnet state, where manufacturers are not delivering an ideal product that WISPs need. (At least that I want). Any product that I choose as an alternative has a trade off. Understand that there are also cost justification barriers not just technical. When I can keep the prospect, its often because I have cost justified installing a dedicated PTP for them. (I don;t have that option for every one based on lease fees for roof access and available spectrum). Trying to customize the FOX for external antenna is a major pain in the neck, not to mention illegal, or Non-FCC compliant. However, out of desperation, I have on occassion been able to successfully customize a FOX 5580, to use an ext connector, and paired it up with a MTI dual Pol antenna or Gabriel Dual Pol. The fun in this industry goes away, when the only way to get the job done, is to illegally hack a CPE, for jobs. Its not my job to be the manufacturer. The good news is that manufacturers are comming closer and closer to offering equivellent value propositions. The most promising products of Fall 2006, I feel is StarOS V3 on WAR, because of their low cost, and recent addition of true Bridging and Large MTU for adequate VLAN support. I also think, Alvarion has a winner with its new V4 firmware products, but I need to improve my finance options, to be able to use Alvarion network wide. What I'd rather have happen, is Trango fix the problem. It would only cost them a few thousand to fix the problem on their end, and will cost me a million to rebuild my network (which isn't going to happen). Thats the problem... What do you do when the product line you want fixed, is still the best choice in many cases overall ? There is no leverage to effect change. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:00 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Tom, so what you are changing the Trangos to ? Also, you can hack yourself a EXT Fox ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Would GPS'd Canopy help? If not, why? Do others in the area use Canopy? Brian Tom DeReggi wrote: Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware. What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast. Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. Last year, I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not on their priority list. That is frustrating for my business. Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 markets. When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed their order with someone else. What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that can deliver packetlossless links. Even Wifi gear can offer packetlossless links. And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so I can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the roofs. Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext. I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing sales and getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango does not have a EXT antenna product line that delivers reliable ARQ. I haven't bought a new Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many pulls on the shelf waiting, when I need one. If Trango never released ARQ for the FOX, I would have never kown what I was missing. But now that I have experienced it, I can't live without it. The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) Waiting for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through. I can't count how much money I burned just waiting. I don't want to wait any more. I'm tired of waiting. I don't have the energy to keep waiting. I want it now. I need it now. This is a time to market business, where there is a domino effect of disaster tied to waiting. So when a company like Alvarion or Valemont come out with a product that will do the job, and I no longer have to wait, I see no reason to wait. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Tom, I hate to say this, but I think you missed the boat on your three $500/mo subs. Trango still offers a 5830-EXT unit for $729 (retail) that would have allowed you the external antenna that was so critical for these links. Why did you not spend the $700 and have them paid for in less than two months? Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: I'm glad to hear that John found success with Alvarion. However, his post does
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
The answer to your question is that there is not a preferred option. In some cases I don't have an option and just lose the prospect (as unservable). The industry is in a stagnet state, where manufacturers are not delivering an ideal product that WISPs need. (At least that I want). Any product that I choose as an alternative has a trade off. Understand that there are also cost justification barriers not just technical. When I can keep the prospect, its often because I have cost justified installing a dedicated PTP for them. (I don;t have that option for every one based on lease fees for roof access and available spectrum). Trying to customize the FOX for external antenna is a major pain in the neck, not to mention illegal, or Non-FCC compliant. However, out of desperation, I have on occassion been able to successfully customize a FOX 5580, to use an ext connector, and paired it up with a MTI dual Pol antenna or Gabriel Dual Pol. The fun in this industry goes away, when the only way to get the job done, is to illegally hack a CPE, for jobs. Its not my job to be the manufacturer. The good news is that manufacturers are comming closer and closer to offering equivellent value propositions. The most promising products of Fall 2006, I feel is StarOS V3 on WAR, because of their low cost, and recent addition of true Bridging and Large MTU for adequate VLAN support. I also think, Alvarion has a winner with its new V4 firmware products, but I need to improve my finance options, to be able to use Alvarion network wide. What I'd rather have happen, is Trango fix the problem. It would only cost them a few thousand to fix the problem on their end, and will cost me a million to rebuild my network (which isn't going to happen). Thats the problem... What do you do when the product line you want fixed, is still the best choice in many cases overall ? There is no leverage to effect change. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:00 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Tom, so what you are changing the Trangos to ? Also, you can hack yourself a EXT Fox ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware. What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast. Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. Last year, I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not on their priority list
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Tom, You won't customize a Fox unit because it's not FCC compliant, yet you are running StarOS on WAR boards which is also not FCC compliant. ;) Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: The answer to your question is that there is not a preferred option. In some cases I don't have an option and just lose the prospect (as unservable). The industry is in a stagnet state, where manufacturers are not delivering an ideal product that WISPs need. (At least that I want). Any product that I choose as an alternative has a trade off. Understand that there are also cost justification barriers not just technical. When I can keep the prospect, its often because I have cost justified installing a dedicated PTP for them. (I don;t have that option for every one based on lease fees for roof access and available spectrum). Trying to customize the FOX for external antenna is a major pain in the neck, not to mention illegal, or Non-FCC compliant. However, out of desperation, I have on occassion been able to successfully customize a FOX 5580, to use an ext connector, and paired it up with a MTI dual Pol antenna or Gabriel Dual Pol. The fun in this industry goes away, when the only way to get the job done, is to illegally hack a CPE, for jobs. Its not my job to be the manufacturer. The good news is that manufacturers are comming closer and closer to offering equivellent value propositions. The most promising products of Fall 2006, I feel is StarOS V3 on WAR, because of their low cost, and recent addition of true Bridging and Large MTU for adequate VLAN support. I also think, Alvarion has a winner with its new V4 firmware products, but I need to improve my finance options, to be able to use Alvarion network wide. What I'd rather have happen, is Trango fix the problem. It would only cost them a few thousand to fix the problem on their end, and will cost me a million to rebuild my network (which isn't going to happen). Thats the problem... What do you do when the product line you want fixed, is still the best choice in many cases overall ? There is no leverage to effect change. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:00 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Tom, so what you are changing the Trangos to ? Also, you can hack yourself a EXT Fox ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware. What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast. Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
As much as I've protested Canopy, (in my mind poor design), the smaller the gaps are getting. The problem is that Trango kept degrading their gear more and more like Canopy. And Canopy kept improving their gear. Trango still wins, because Trango is less expensive. Canopy still has some of the traits that I also don't like about Trango (darn DSS dish antennas). My goal is to gain the High Arpu business. Who the winner will be is not a dying breed product, but the manufacturer that steps up to the plate to deliver a complete product. I want to be done with half-assed antennas. What I've learned is that the ANTENNA IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE RADIO. Trango's strength had always been their internal antennas and options for good external ones. On a side note, Does Canopy 5.8G CPEs have external connectors? The truth is, I want the cheap CPE antenna option, for half my installs, cause it saves me money and thats all I need to do the job. I just don't want to give up the flexibilty to optimize reliabitly for the other 50%. The other thing you forget is, I'd now rather fight it out, and stay put on the channel, doesn't mean that I will win. With Trango, I still have the option to change my mind, when somebody beats me up, and I need to go run to another channel or polarity. Its always good to have a backup plan. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:24 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links snip What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another channel to play on. And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering. Alvarion gives that advantage. /snip Tom, Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.6/453 - Release Date: 9/20/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
For the golden answer. GPS only helps you design your own network, and I already take care to use best practices for my own network, when its comming from myself. Its all the other people that you have to worry about. Do you think Public safety or department of transportation is using GPS sync for all their street pole omnis? Do you think all the corporate end user PTP links being sold to them by clueless network integrators are GPS syncing? NOT! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Would GPS'd Canopy help? If not, why? Do others in the area use Canopy? Brian Tom DeReggi wrote: Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware. What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast. Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. Last year, I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not on their priority list. That is frustrating for my business. Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 markets. When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed their order with someone else. What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that can deliver packetlossless links. Even Wifi gear can offer packetlossless links. And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so I can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the roofs. Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext. I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing sales and getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango does not have a EXT antenna product line that delivers reliable ARQ. I haven't bought a new Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many pulls on the shelf waiting, when I need one. If Trango never released ARQ for the FOX, I would have never kown what I was missing. But now that I have experienced it, I can't live without it. The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) Waiting for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through. I can't count how much money I burned just waiting. I don't want to wait any more. I'm tired of waiting. I don't have the energy to keep waiting. I want it now. I need it now. This is a time to market business, where there is a domino effect of disaster tied to waiting. So when a company like Alvarion or Valemont come out with a product that will do the job, and I no longer have to wait
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
My goal is to gain the High Arpu business. Tom, that is exactly where Alvarion excels and why it is my opinion that the more premium an operator becomes in the total quality of their service, the more likely an operator is to choose Alvarion. And these customers have different service level expectations that go far beyond the speed. They require a reliable connection that they can essentially forget about. Any connection that draws the attention of the end customer is a bad connection, because something is happening that forces them to deal with it. That is a distraction. That leads to a sense of insecurity, which is something a high ARPU customer will not tolerate over time. So Alvarion radios are built and given feature sets that allow an extreme level of customization (lots of depth in the VLAN abilities for example) and reliability (both physical and in terms of link stability). As well, as an operator you are able to pull a huge variety of statistics to reduce trouble shooting time when you do have to trouble shoot. And on the basic level, the way our radios use the air means we scan scale high ARPU customers better per sector than any other UL brand. That is especially true is you are offering more than just high speed Internet access such as VLANs and services like VoIP. It is plenty true that there have been numerous small WISPs that have left Alvarion (something I am going to work hard to change), but I have never met a SCALED operator that switch FROM Alvarion. I have met countless though that have moved to us as they have reached the stage where they need to become higher end providers. You are a prototypical example of such a WISP. John's is such a case. Marty's Roadstar is one of the most classic examples, having moved from 802.11b to Trango to Alvarion. Now for sure we are not perfect and we have our share of quirks, but we are out there still investing heavily (millions) in this unlicensed market, including on the product front. And we are fiscally very healthy and always have been. We are a horse a long term operator can tie his cart to. And I cannot understate how important that is. Many companies and all the huge telecom equipment providers (including Moto) are not investing in fixed now hardly at all, much less unlicensed fixed. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
I believe we have one of the highest APRUs in the business and we use Canopy (including Orthogon). We do like the Trango Atlas, but only for limited deployment. I don't really think the price of the radio correlates to the revenue of the service. -Matt Tom DeReggi wrote: As much as I've protested Canopy, (in my mind poor design), the smaller the gaps are getting. The problem is that Trango kept degrading their gear more and more like Canopy. And Canopy kept improving their gear. Trango still wins, because Trango is less expensive. Canopy still has some of the traits that I also don't like about Trango (darn DSS dish antennas). My goal is to gain the High Arpu business. Who the winner will be is not a dying breed product, but the manufacturer that steps up to the plate to deliver a complete product. I want to be done with half-assed antennas. What I've learned is that the ANTENNA IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE RADIO. Trango's strength had always been their internal antennas and options for good external ones. On a side note, Does Canopy 5.8G CPEs have external connectors? The truth is, I want the cheap CPE antenna option, for half my installs, cause it saves me money and thats all I need to do the job. I just don't want to give up the flexibilty to optimize reliabitly for the other 50%. The other thing you forget is, I'd now rather fight it out, and stay put on the channel, doesn't mean that I will win. With Trango, I still have the option to change my mind, when somebody beats me up, and I need to go run to another channel or polarity. Its always good to have a backup plan. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:24 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links snip What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another channel to play on. And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering. Alvarion gives that advantage. /snip Tom, Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Charles Wu wrote: snip What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another channel to play on. And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering. Alvarion gives that advantage. /snip Tom, Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking -Charles That would damage his anti-motorola pride! Plus going with canopy would mean being 'in sync' with the competition and things would start working...just wouldn't be right! double ducking -- Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage. As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to solve... -- Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: For the golden answer. GPS only helps you design your own network, and I already take care to use best practices for my own network, when its comming from myself. Its all the other people that you have to worry about. Do you think Public safety or department of transportation is using GPS sync for all their street pole omnis? Do you think all the corporate end user PTP links being sold to them by clueless network integrators are GPS syncing? NOT! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Would GPS'd Canopy help? If not, why? Do others in the area use Canopy? Brian Tom DeReggi wrote: Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware. What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast. Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. Last year, I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not on their priority list. That is frustrating for my business. Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 markets. When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed their order with someone else. What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that can deliver packetlossless links. Even Wifi gear can offer packetlossless links. And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so I can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the roofs. Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext. I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing sales and getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango does not have a EXT antenna product line that delivers reliable ARQ. I haven't bought a new Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many pulls on the shelf waiting, when I need one. If Trango never released ARQ for the FOX, I would have never kown what I was missing. But now that I have experienced it, I can't live without it. The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) Waiting for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through. I can't count how much money I
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
This maybe so, but there will ALWAYS be another product available and deployed alongside Canopy that does not sync. It is also safe to assume that not every Canopy operator will opt to sync knowingly or unknowingly. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jon Langeler Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 3:10 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage. As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to solve... -- Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: For the golden answer. GPS only helps you design your own network, and I already take care to use best practices for my own network, when its comming from myself. Its all the other people that you have to worry about. Do you think Public safety or department of transportation is using GPS sync for all their street pole omnis? Do you think all the corporate end user PTP links being sold to them by clueless network integrators are GPS syncing? NOT! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Would GPS'd Canopy help? If not, why? Do others in the area use Canopy? Brian Tom DeReggi wrote: Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware. What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast. Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. Last year, I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not on their priority list. That is frustrating for my business. Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 markets. When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed their order with someone else. What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that can deliver packetlossless links. Even Wifi gear can offer packetlossless links. And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so I can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the roofs. Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext. I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing sales and getting more black eyes than
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Jon, Canopy is not fast enough for many now and voip performance is lacking. Depending on the circumstance you may be right for many but the times are changing very quickly. There are more and more projects hitting the streets where you don't even make the cut if you can't pass the higher data traffic or support more than 25 voip calls per sector. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage. As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to solve... -- Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: For the golden answer. GPS only helps you design your own network, and I already take care to use best practices for my own network, when its comming from myself. Its all the other people that you have to worry about. Do you think Public safety or department of transportation is using GPS sync for all their street pole omnis? Do you think all the corporate end user PTP links being sold to them by clueless network integrators are GPS syncing? NOT! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Would GPS'd Canopy help? If not, why? Do others in the area use Canopy? Brian Tom DeReggi wrote: Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware. What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast. Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. Last year, I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not on their priority list. That is frustrating for my business. Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 markets. When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed their order with someone else. What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that can deliver packetlossless links. Even Wifi gear can offer packetlossless links. And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so I can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the roofs. Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext. I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
I am not suggesting that Canopy shouldn't be better, but it is certainly better than good enough. Again, not only are we leading the industry in ARPU, we also doing hundreds of thousands of VoIP minutes every month. -Matt Brad Larson wrote: Jon, Canopy is not fast enough for many now and voip performance is lacking. Depending on the circumstance you may be right for many but the times are changing very quickly. There are more and more projects hitting the streets where you don't even make the cut if you can't pass the higher data traffic or support more than 25 voip calls per sector. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage. As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to solve... -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
You pay more per customer than an Alvarion user Matt since all your customers are on dedicated PtP shots though, right? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:19 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links I believe we have one of the highest APRUs in the business and we use Canopy (including Orthogon). We do like the Trango Atlas, but only for limited deployment. I don't really think the price of the radio correlates to the revenue of the service. -Matt Tom DeReggi wrote: As much as I've protested Canopy, (in my mind poor design), the smaller the gaps are getting. The problem is that Trango kept degrading their gear more and more like Canopy. And Canopy kept improving their gear. Trango still wins, because Trango is less expensive. Canopy still has some of the traits that I also don't like about Trango (darn DSS dish antennas). My goal is to gain the High Arpu business. Who the winner will be is not a dying breed product, but the manufacturer that steps up to the plate to deliver a complete product. I want to be done with half-assed antennas. What I've learned is that the ANTENNA IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE RADIO. Trango's strength had always been their internal antennas and options for good external ones. On a side note, Does Canopy 5.8G CPEs have external connectors? The truth is, I want the cheap CPE antenna option, for half my installs, cause it saves me money and thats all I need to do the job. I just don't want to give up the flexibilty to optimize reliabitly for the other 50%. The other thing you forget is, I'd now rather fight it out, and stay put on the channel, doesn't mean that I will win. With Trango, I still have the option to change my mind, when somebody beats me up, and I need to go run to another channel or polarity. Its always good to have a backup plan. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:24 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links snip What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another channel to play on. And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering. Alvarion gives that advantage. /snip Tom, Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(192). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Patrick Leary wrote: You pay more per customer than an Alvarion user Matt since all your customers are on dedicated PtP shots though, right? Last time I looked at Alvarion's pricing that wasn't the case. We do use a lot PtP shots, but all of our customers aren't on dedicated PtP shots. We don't have any customers on over-subscribed radios though. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
For sure we are a premium product, so we will never be near the lowest and don't ever want to be in that game. We try to offer value. That said, frankly, I personally am not a fan of how we list our pricing. MSRP is very misleading since each company may have a different channel model, or lack of one entirely. In other words, our pricing appears much higher than that which people actually pay, even people buying in quantities of one much less those buying in volume. In terms of oversubscription, having it or not is neither good or bad and there is nothing to tilt your nose to about oversubscription in and of itself. You offer a dedicated circuit and your clients pay accordingly much more and should. I assume they chose you because they want that dedicated circuit and believe you offer it at a value. Others chose to sell oversubscribed service, which is perfectly acceptable and does result in a lower ARPU than a dedicated circuit. That said, sure there are operators that WAY over subscribe. I've some cable ops doing 1000:1 residential which must be crappy service. We advise of a residential of 20:1 and a commercial of 4:1, maybe 5:1. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Patrick Leary wrote: You pay more per customer than an Alvarion user Matt since all your customers are on dedicated PtP shots though, right? Last time I looked at Alvarion's pricing that wasn't the case. We do use a lot PtP shots, but all of our customers aren't on dedicated PtP shots. We don't have any customers on over-subscribed radios though. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Nice try, but I've found that comment to be not at all true. I have often chosen to avoid canopy user's channels, but because I am a good WISP neighbor, not because I had to. Why fight if you can cooperate. On a SPEC sheet Canopy does boast the lowest C/I. But Trango's specified C/I was reported before considering ARQ. And Trango has always underspec'd their spec sheets. C/I is not nearly as relevant as SNR resilience anyway. With Arq, we've easilly ran links as low as 4 db above the average noise floor, reliably. There is VERY little difference between the Trango and Canopy C/I in real world usage. The Trango just adds more polarities as more options to work around it, when needed. One of the reasons we like Trango is its resilience to noise, that gives us the abilty to fight it out and stand our ground. The Foxes w/ DISH, have excellent ARQ and resilience to Noise, within their range and LOS. When we start to have trouble with Trango, is when we start to push the limits of the technology. Its a LOS technology that we attempt NLOS with. My arguement is also not that we can't be the last man standing. Its that when the battle happens the customer sees it, and the customer does not tolerate it. IF a Canopy and Trango went to war, one might survive a little better than the other, but ultimately both customers would feel the interference the majority of the time. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jon Langeler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage. As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to solve... -- Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: For the golden answer. GPS only helps you design your own network, and I already take care to use best practices for my own network, when its comming from myself. Its all the other people that you have to worry about. Do you think Public safety or department of transportation is using GPS sync for all their street pole omnis? Do you think all the corporate end user PTP links being sold to them by clueless network integrators are GPS syncing? NOT! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:03 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Would GPS'd Canopy help? If not, why? Do others in the area use Canopy? Brian Tom DeReggi wrote: Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware. What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast. Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Yes, but based on net capacity of a given sector, not gross. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mario Pommier Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Patrick, I think I know what you mean, but can you elaborate: do you mean [4-1Mbps customers] on [1Mbps of radio capacity]? Thanks. Mario Patrick Leary wrote: We advise of a residential of 20:1 and a commercial of 4:1, maybe 5:1.Patrick LearyAVP WISP MarketsAlvarion, Inc.o: 650.314.2628c: 760.580.0080Vonage: 650.641.1243-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Matt LiottaSent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:39 PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul LinksPatrick Leary wrote: You pay more per customer than an Alvarion user Matt since all yourcustomers are on dedicated PtP shots though, right? Last time I looked at Alvarion's pricing that wasn't the case. We do usea lot PtP shots, but all of our customers aren't on dedicated PtP shots.We don't have any customers on over-subscribed radios though.-Matt This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals & computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Matt, Don't forget the laws of statistics. You also have been in business for less than 2 years. We didn't have interference problems our first 4 years either. It wasn't until year 5 and 6, that it started to become tough. I may have complained a little about trango today, but List please don't take it out of context. Every Telecom and their brother, is trying to install in our town, they abandon their effort in defeat, and I'm still here 6 years later. My market also has Fiber in 80% of the building, there is tough competition for the high ARPU business, and its a hard market to consistently deliver on. And its not just the radio, it every aspect of a company. We are evolving through the years of experience we have had, and when we select which links we install and don't install, we do it with responsible choices to protect our reputation as a company that can deliver high ARPU quality. I'd argue that our network is a last man standing network in our market today. A lot of my comments are based on that the market will be changing, and manufacturers need to change with the market to give us options to better offer quality broadband that can compete with Fiber. I'm not going to point to any specific manufacturer to say its not an adeqaute product for the WISP that chose it, I'm just saying that Canopy is no exception, none of the gear that is out there today is the perfect system, and they are all 5 years old technology. The company that has most currently risen above the others based on technology to meet WISPs current need has been Alvarion with their V4 product. Wether its enough value to justify the price, is for the WISP to decide, and whether it will stay that way is up for the competing manufacturers to decide. For example the only thing Trango needs to do to be the leader again, is to add a integrated 17-23db model fox or an EXT model Fox. They could easilly do that with little sweat. Or simply fix their ARQ firmware for the 5830 product line and not have to make any hardware changes. Whether they choose todo that, I have no control of. Maybe they are so excited about their next generation Wi-Max gear, they want to go straight to that? I don't know. . Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links I am not suggesting that Canopy shouldn't be better, but it is certainly better than good enough. Again, not only are we leading the industry in ARPU, we also doing hundreds of thousands of VoIP minutes every month. -Matt Brad Larson wrote: Jon, Canopy is not fast enough for many now and voip performance is lacking. Depending on the circumstance you may be right for many but the times are changing very quickly. There are more and more projects hitting the streets where you don't even make the cut if you can't pass the higher data traffic or support more than 25 voip calls per sector. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage. As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to solve... -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 9/22/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not only extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started using canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3 different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest that there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a pretty darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's vision, it keeps getting better. ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ is fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also suffer from increased latency and less throughput during those retransmissions. Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep customers happy. Having a low C/I means the system will be stable more often and maintain a lower retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an option in the 5800 model which is what you and I probably have a decent percentage of in our Trango networks. Having a low C/I requirement affects other things like increases the range of a product. I'm laying out facts, you can convince yourself of whatever you want... Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Tom DeReggi wrote: Nice try, but I've found that comment to be not at all true. I have often chosen to avoid canopy user's channels, but because I am a good WISP neighbor, not because I had to. Why fight if you can cooperate. On a SPEC sheet Canopy does boast the lowest C/I. But Trango's specified C/I was reported before considering ARQ. And Trango has always underspec'd their spec sheets. C/I is not nearly as relevant as SNR resilience anyway. With Arq, we've easilly ran links as low as 4 db above the average noise floor, reliably. There is VERY little difference between the Trango and Canopy C/I in real world usage. The Trango just adds more polarities as more options to work around it, when needed. One of the reasons we like Trango is its resilience to noise, that gives us the abilty to fight it out and stand our ground. The Foxes w/ DISH, have excellent ARQ and resilience to Noise, within their range and LOS. When we start to have trouble with Trango, is when we start to push the limits of the technology. Its a LOS technology that we attempt NLOS with. My arguement is also not that we can't be the last man standing. Its that when the battle happens the customer sees it, and the customer does not tolerate it. IF a Canopy and Trango went to war, one might survive a little better than the other, but ultimately both customers would feel the interference the majority of the time. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Hey Brad, VOIP may be the only thing canopy is lagging in. I'm curious if they'll improve that in the version 8 software release or at least when they move toward WIMAX compatibility. In the mean time I'm more concerned with providing reliable pipes... Jon Langeler Michwave Tech. Brad Larson wrote: Jon, Canopy is not fast enough for many now and voip performance is lacking. Depending on the circumstance you may be right for many but the times are changing very quickly. There are more and more projects hitting the streets where you don't even make the cut if you can't pass the higher data traffic or support more than 25 voip calls per sector. Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage. As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to solve... -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Connectorized Canopy SM are coming q4 Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links As much as I've protested Canopy, (in my mind poor design), the smaller the gaps are getting. The problem is that Trango kept degrading their gear more and more like Canopy. And Canopy kept improving their gear. Trango still wins, because Trango is less expensive. Canopy still has some of the traits that I also don't like about Trango (darn DSS dish antennas). My goal is to gain the High Arpu business. Who the winner will be is not a dying breed product, but the manufacturer that steps up to the plate to deliver a complete product. I want to be done with half-assed antennas. What I've learned is that the ANTENNA IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE RADIO. Trango's strength had always been their internal antennas and options for good external ones. On a side note, Does Canopy 5.8G CPEs have external connectors? The truth is, I want the cheap CPE antenna option, for half my installs, cause it saves me money and thats all I need to do the job. I just don't want to give up the flexibilty to optimize reliabitly for the other 50%. The other thing you forget is, I'd now rather fight it out, and stay put on the channel, doesn't mean that I will win. With Trango, I still have the option to change my mind, when somebody beats me up, and I need to go run to another channel or polarity. Its always good to have a backup plan. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:24 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links snip What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another channel to play on. And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering. Alvarion gives that advantage. /snip Tom, Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.6/453 - Release Date: 9/20/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
John, Good to hear you got issues fixed, independent of the manufacturer/vendor you used. Regarding the radios you're using now. Some of us, like our company, started with Alvarion and never switched out. It's hard to try other technologies that appear less expensive, when the one you already have proves itself year after year after year. And when you can talk to really good engineering support. OK, so we haven't found a way to use Alvarion equipment on residential markets except where we don't have to compete with $30/mo dsl. But I know some folks, even on this list, who somehow have done that. But on the business side, our transition from Alvarion BAII or 900 to VL has had the same response from our customers that you describe wow, that is fast. Mind you, these customers are still limited on our bandwidth manager to the same 1Mbps symmetrical speeds. But the VL network just seems to fly compared to the previous, 4 or more year old technologies now. It's also hard to try out other technologies when someone like you give a report like this one: I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today. Thanks. Mario John Scrivner wrote: As you guys know my company was having some serious speed and reliability issues with our existing Trango backhaul some time back. We have about 25 tower locations in Southern Illinois which until recently were all fed from these Trango radios. We had countless short outages, signal irregularities, bandwidth crunches, etc. The Trangos used to work just fine. In the last year or so the Trango links have become a big problem for us. We tried several things to fix these problems but the Trangos were simply being pushed to do more than they were designed to do. The amount of packet counts, speed, etc. we needed to reliably serve the towers simply was too much for these radios and they were buckling under the strain. I have always thought highly of Alvarion and knew we could probably find a good place for their equipment in our network someday. Previously the trouble with choosing Alvarion had always been that we either needed something they did not offer at the time needed ( as was the case when we selected Trango for multi-point 5 GHz backhaul back in the day) or that they were too expensive. Alvarion finally has a place in our network. In the case of our troubled backhaul links Alvarion's VL product seemed to fit the bill to help us now. We had seen reports of 50,000 packet per second throughput and up to 35 megabit per second capacity with the new Version 4 of the VL firmware. When I asked about the product I was directed to a guy named Mike Cowan of Wireless Connections who is a RF engineer and sells Alvarion VL. Mike spent an incredible amount of time with our staff to look over the issues we were having and help us find ways of correcting it. He never charged us a dime for what I consider to be thousands of dollars worth of support and training. Mike Cowan and Alvarion did more for us to help us build a better WISP network than any vendor ever has since the day I became a WISP. We also had some serious peer to peer traffic issues on our network which were resolved with a Mikrotik box running to slow down that traffic. The combination of this box and the new more robust Alvarion VL backhaul has led customers to remark, It's like the difference between night and day. We have zero downtime on our backhaul now. We were getting countless reports of downtime from our network monitoring system before. Now it just works. I don't think I can overstate the impact Alvarion VL has had on my network. If you are having problems with your network then you need to at least call Alvarion and give them a shot. In the last three months or so we have migrated about 40% of our backhaul links over to Alvarion VL. Since that time outages on those most troubled links have vanished. Throughput has tripled. People have gone from screaming and yelling to sending their friends to us to hookup. If you guys want to compare the numbers out there I am sure you will find a few different systems that will give comparable umbers to what we are seeing with Alvarion VL. What you do not see in those numbers is the quality and the reliability of the system. I have always been a tinkerer and I will continue to tinker. What I believe though is that there is something to be said for buying a high-quality, engineered system and that is what you get with Alvarion VL. If you have tower locations and/or enterprise customers who cannot afford to be a test subject for your tinkering then consider calling Alvarion for those links. There is no shame in admitting you cannot possibly build a system as reliable as a company who has spent millions of dollars and hired countless designers to research and build a better data radio. I am certainly not ashamed to
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:36 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links John, Good to hear you got issues fixed, independent of the manufacturer/vendor you used. Regarding the radios you're using now. Some of us, like our company, started with Alvarion and never switched out. It's hard to try other technologies that appear less expensive, when the one you already have proves itself year after year after year. And when you can talk to really good engineering support. OK, so we haven't found a way to use Alvarion equipment on residential markets except where we don't have to compete with $30/mo dsl. But I know some folks, even on this list, who somehow have done that. But on the business side, our transition from Alvarion BAII or 900 to VL has had the same response from our customers that you describe wow, that is fast. Mind you, these customers are still limited on our bandwidth manager to the same 1Mbps symmetrical speeds. But the VL network just seems to fly compared to the previous, 4 or more year old technologies now. It's also hard to try out other technologies when someone like you give a report like this one: I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today. Thanks. Mario John Scrivner wrote: As you guys know my company was having some serious speed and reliability issues with our existing Trango backhaul some time back. We have about 25 tower locations in Southern Illinois which until recently were all fed from these Trango radios. We had countless short outages, signal irregularities, bandwidth crunches, etc. The Trangos used to work just fine. In the last year or so the Trango links have become a big problem for us. We tried several things to fix these problems but the Trangos were simply being pushed to do more than they were designed to do. The amount of packet counts, speed, etc. we needed to reliably serve the towers simply was too much for these radios and they were buckling under the strain. I have always thought highly of Alvarion and knew we could probably find a good place for their equipment in our network someday. Previously the trouble with choosing Alvarion had always been that we either needed something they did not offer at the time needed ( as was the case when we selected Trango for multi-point 5 GHz backhaul back in the day) or that they were too expensive. Alvarion finally has a place in our network. In the case of our troubled backhaul links Alvarion's VL product seemed to fit the bill to help us now. We had seen reports of 50,000 packet per second throughput and up to 35 megabit per second capacity with the new Version 4 of the VL firmware. When I asked about the product I was directed to a guy named Mike Cowan of Wireless Connections who is a RF engineer and sells Alvarion VL. Mike spent an incredible amount of time with our staff to look over the issues we were having and help us find ways of correcting it. He never charged us a dime for what I consider to be thousands of dollars worth of support and training. Mike Cowan and Alvarion did more for us to help us build a better WISP network than any vendor ever has since the day I became a WISP. We also had some serious peer to peer traffic issues on our network which were resolved with a Mikrotik box running to slow down that traffic. The combination of this box and the new more robust Alvarion VL backhaul has led customers to remark, It's like the difference between night and day. We have zero downtime on our backhaul now. We were getting countless reports of downtime from our network monitoring system before. Now it just works. I don't think I can overstate the impact Alvarion VL has had on my network. If you are having problems with your network then you need to at least call Alvarion and give them a shot. In the last three months or so we have migrated about 40% of our backhaul links over to Alvarion VL. Since that time outages on those most troubled links have vanished. Throughput has tripled. People have gone from screaming and yelling to sending their friends to us to hookup. If you guys want to compare the numbers out there I am sure you will find a few different systems that will give comparable umbers to what we are seeing with Alvarion VL. What you do not see in those numbers is the quality and the reliability of the system. I have always been a tinkerer and I will continue to tinker. What I believe though is that there is something to be said for buying a high-quality, engineered system and that is what you get with Alvarion VL. If you have tower locations and/or enterprise customers who cannot afford to be a test subject for your tinkering then consider calling Alvarion for those links. There is no shame in admitting you cannot possibly build a system as reliable
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Agreed that Trango has clearly fallen behind...way behind. However, the VL is also far from being an end all solution. The VL has no mechanism to avoid interference (No RX threshold etc.) other than just to retransmit. Also, the VL does not offer the flexibility to change polarities on the fly. In fact Alvarion doesn't even offer an H Polarity SU INT and if you rotate the V Polarity SU to H you'll likely have a water penetration problem. The VL is only available in a 5.3GHz or 5.8GHz solution further limiting the flexibility the product offers. As our HUB sites increase in number and decrease in required coverage area we have found the 5.3GHz band to be VERY valuable. You do not have that flexibility with VL. When Alvarion is presented with the freq and polarity suggestions they simply respond with we're RF purists talking points. No indication that maybe, just maybe those would be good features to add to the product. We deployed a VL in an above average noisy environment with the latest v3.x firmware and the results were dismal to say the least. Fortunately upgrading to v4.0 allowed us to salvage the deal, but we still can only pass a few Mbps. This is far less than what a Trango M5830AP can do in a noisy environment. As with most things YMMV. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango multipoint radios will still provide excellent service. Just because I have soured on them does not mean they are not a platform for WISPs to consider. Scriv I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today. Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
I think in all fairness, we need to put a major factor to radio selection out on the table too... price. Trango retail pricing: Trango Link10-EXT's are $1,500 for a complete link. Trango 5830AP-EXTs are $1,095 Trango 5830SU-EXT's are $729 Trango FOX are $149 Alvarion pricing (not sure if this is retail or not): VL 5.8ghz AP - $4,525 VL 6MBPS CPE - $1,045 It still stands true... you get what you pay for if you spend 4x the money on an AP, I would suspect it should work better. If you spend 4x the money on a car, boat, house, etc. it should work better. The question is, do you need to spend 4x the money to get what your customers need? Travis Microserv John Scrivner wrote: Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango multipoint radios will still provide excellent service. Just because I have soured on them does not mean they are not a platform for WISPs to consider. Scriv I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today. Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
That's retail Travis. Actual pricing WISPs pay is far less. By the way, that VL AU also delivers over 32Mbps net at the top mod and can scream with VoIP. Here are the net rates per mod for VL: Avg Avg FTPLayer 2 Modulation 1 4.96 5.56 Modulation 2 7.28 8.16 Modulation 3 9.9 11.10 Modulation 4 14.3516.09 Modulation 5 19.3821.73 Modulation 6 26.7730.01 Modulation 7 33.4137.46 Modulation 8 36.2440.63 Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links I think in all fairness, we need to put a major factor to radio selection out on the table too... price. Trango retail pricing: Trango Link10-EXT's are $1,500 for a complete link. Trango 5830AP-EXTs are $1,095 Trango 5830SU-EXT's are $729 Trango FOX are $149 Alvarion pricing (not sure if this is retail or not): VL 5.8ghz AP - $4,525 VL 6MBPS CPE - $1,045 It still stands true... you get what you pay for if you spend 4x the money on an AP, I would suspect it should work better. If you spend 4x the money on a car, boat, house, etc. it should work better. The question is, do you need to spend 4x the money to get what your customers need? Travis Microserv John Scrivner wrote: Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango multipoint radios will still provide excellent service. Just because I have soured on them does not mean they are not a platform for WISPs to consider. Scriv I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today. Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
I fully believe these payload rates are achievable in little or no noise environments. I think it's important to add a disclaimer stating these rates are theoretically obtainable under ideal conditions. In comparison a product that has mechanisms to avoid noise or block noise will perform better. Our VL setup running v4.0 is only able to achieve 2-3Mbps uploads TCP HDX and 8-10Mbps downloads TCP HDX. Running TCP FDX tests is pretty ugly, so I won't even bother posting. This is a real world deployment under real world noisy conditions not a glossy ad best case claim by a manufacturer interested in pushing boxes off the shelves. grin Patrick, any chance Alvarion will reconsider a software switchable Dual Polarity AU and SU? Any chance Alvarion will consider offering both 5.3GHz and 5.8GHz bands in one product? I believe Alvarion is on to something with the VL v4.0 series product, but they are lacking some very basic functionality as I have noted above. If Alvarion were to add the two above features to the VL line I believe the VL product could be an industry leader in PtMP throughput and flexibility. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links That's retail Travis. Actual pricing WISPs pay is far less. By the way, that VL AU also delivers over 32Mbps net at the top mod and can scream with VoIP. Here are the net rates per mod for VL: Avg Avg FTPLayer 2 Modulation 1 4.96 5.56 Modulation 2 7.28 8.16 Modulation 3 9.9 11.10 Modulation 4 14.3516.09 Modulation 5 19.3821.73 Modulation 6 26.7730.01 Modulation 7 33.4137.46 Modulation 8 36.2440.63 Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links I think in all fairness, we need to put a major factor to radio selection out on the table too... price. Trango retail pricing: Trango Link10-EXT's are $1,500 for a complete link. Trango 5830AP-EXTs are $1,095 Trango 5830SU-EXT's are $729 Trango FOX are $149 Alvarion pricing (not sure if this is retail or not): VL 5.8ghz AP - $4,525 VL 6MBPS CPE - $1,045 It still stands true... you get what you pay for if you spend 4x the money on an AP, I would suspect it should work better. If you spend 4x the money on a car, boat, house, etc. it should work better. The question is, do you need to spend 4x the money to get what your customers need? Travis Microserv John Scrivner wrote: Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango multipoint radios will still provide excellent service. Just because I have soured on them does not mean they are not a platform for WISPs to consider. Scriv I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today. Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Patrick Leary wrote: Here are the net rates per mod for VL: Avg Avg FTPLayer 2 Modulation 1 4.96 5.56 Modulation 2 7.28 8.16 Modulation 3 9.911.10 Modulation 4 14.35 16.09 Modulation 5 19.38 21.73 Modulation 6 26.77 30.01 Modulation 7 33.41 37.46 Modulation 8 36.24 40.63 Just outta curiosity, what test methodology does Alvarion use to get those numbers? Don't get me wrong, I'm fairly happy with our Alvarion purchase (heck, you've all seen my boss' feedback that launched this thread), but my real-world throughputs aren't quite that high. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
I'll ask Ed. He posted all the details on Mike Cowan's Alvarion support list. I cut and pasted the mod rates from his original post. Ed? David, what speeds (Net) are you getting relative to the mod rate you are running? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Patrick Leary wrote: Here are the net rates per mod for VL: Avg Avg FTPLayer 2 Modulation 1 4.96 5.56 Modulation 2 7.28 8.16 Modulation 3 9.911.10 Modulation 4 14.35 16.09 Modulation 5 19.38 21.73 Modulation 6 26.77 30.01 Modulation 7 33.41 37.46 Modulation 8 36.24 40.63 Just outta curiosity, what test methodology does Alvarion use to get those numbers? Don't get me wrong, I'm fairly happy with our Alvarion purchase (heck, you've all seen my boss' feedback that launched this thread), but my real-world throughputs aren't quite that high. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
I fully believe these payload rates are achievable in little or no noise environments. I think it's important to add a disclaimer stating these rates are theoretically obtainable under ideal conditions. In comparison a product that has mechanisms to avoid noise or block noise will perform better. Our VL setup running v4.0 is only able to achieve 2-3Mbps uploads TCP HDX and 8-10Mbps downloads TCP HDX. Running TCP FDX tests is pretty ugly, so I won't even bother posting. This is a real world deployment under real world noisy conditions not a glossy ad best case claim by a manufacturer interested in pushing boxes off the shelves. grin Patrick, any chance Alvarion will reconsider a software switchable Dual Polarity AU and SU? Any chance Alvarion will consider offering both 5.3GHz and 5.8GHz bands in one product? I believe Alvarion is on to something with the VL v4.0 series product, but they are lacking some very basic functionality as I have noted above. If Alvarion were to add the two above features to the VL line I believe the VL product could be an industry leader in PtMP throughput and flexibility. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links That's retail Travis. Actual pricing WISPs pay is far less. By the way, that VL AU also delivers over 32Mbps net at the top mod and can scream with VoIP. Here are the net rates per mod for VL: Avg Avg FTPLayer 2 Modulation 1 4.96 5.56 Modulation 2 7.28 8.16 Modulation 3 9.9 11.10 Modulation 4 14.3516.09 Modulation 5 19.3821.73 Modulation 6 26.7730.01 Modulation 7 33.4137.46 Modulation 8 36.2440.63 Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:41 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links I think in all fairness, we need to put a major factor to radio selection out on the table too... price. Trango retail pricing: Trango Link10-EXT's are $1,500 for a complete link. Trango 5830AP-EXTs are $1,095 Trango 5830SU-EXT's are $729 Trango FOX are $149 Alvarion pricing (not sure if this is retail or not): VL 5.8ghz AP - $4,525 VL 6MBPS CPE - $1,045 It still stands true... you get what you pay for if you spend 4x the money on an AP, I would suspect it should work better. If you spend 4x the money on a car, boat, house, etc. it should work better. The question is, do you need to spend 4x the money to get what your customers need? Travis Microserv John Scrivner wrote: Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango multipoint radios will still provide excellent service. Just because I have soured on them does not mean they are not a platform for WISPs to consider. Scriv I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today. Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Ah. So in that case I would really like to hear from those with 4.0 in the field in terms of what net rates are being achieved at what mods. Lab is one thing, real world is quite another. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: Ed Wyatt Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:29 PM To: Patrick Leary; 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links This was done in the lab with Rev C hardware running FTP traffic. And then the Layer 2 traffic was done with Smartbits hardware box also in the lab. Ed Wyatt, Jr. Sr. Applications Engineer Alvarion, Inc. 4012 Mt. Olney Lane Olney, MD 20832-1002 (301) 570-0300 (v) (301) 570-7074 (f) http://www.alvarion-usa.com NOTICE: This transmission and any files attached to it, may contain confidential and/or privileged information and intended only for the named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, reproduction, retransmission, dissemination, disclosure, copying or any use of the information or files contained is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this electronic mail. -Original Message- From: Patrick Leary Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 4:13 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Cc: Ed Wyatt Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links I'll ask Ed. He posted all the details on Mike Cowan's Alvarion support list. I cut and pasted the mod rates from his original post. Ed? David, what speeds (Net) are you getting relative to the mod rate you are running? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David E. Smith Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Patrick Leary wrote: Here are the net rates per mod for VL: Avg Avg FTPLayer 2 Modulation 1 4.96 5.56 Modulation 2 7.28 8.16 Modulation 3 9.911.10 Modulation 4 14.35 16.09 Modulation 5 19.38 21.73 Modulation 6 26.77 30.01 Modulation 7 33.41 37.46 Modulation 8 36.24 40.63 Just outta curiosity, what test methodology does Alvarion use to get those numbers? Don't get me wrong, I'm fairly happy with our Alvarion purchase (heck, you've all seen my boss' feedback that launched this thread), but my real-world throughputs aren't quite that high. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(191). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware. What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast. Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. Last year, I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not on their priority list. That is frustrating for my business. Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 markets. When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed their order with someone else. What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that can deliver packetlossless links. Even Wifi gear can offer packetlossless links. And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so I can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the roofs. Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext. I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing sales and getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango does not have a EXT antenna product line that delivers reliable ARQ. I haven't bought a new Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many pulls on the shelf waiting, when I need one. If Trango never released ARQ for the FOX, I would have never kown what I was missing. But now that I have experienced it, I can't live without it. The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) Waiting for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through. I can't count how much money I burned just waiting. I don't want to wait any more. I'm tired of waiting. I don't have the energy to keep waiting. I want it now. I need it now. This is a time to market business, where there is a domino effect of disaster tied to waiting. So when a company like Alvarion or Valemont come out with a product that will do the job, and I no longer have to wait, I see no reason to wait. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Tom, I hate to say this, but I think you missed the boat on your three $500/mo subs. Trango still offers a 5830-EXT unit for $729 (retail) that would have allowed you the external antenna that was so critical for these links. Why did you not spend the $700 and have them paid for in less than two months? Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: I'm glad to hear that John found success with Alvarion. However, his post does leave out technical detail on why the equipment had helped, which may be misleading to a reader. I have
Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Brad, I got an idea! How about Trango Fix ARQ for the 5830-EXT, so it can be like old times, and we can sit and brag on the list how great our networks are? One of the reasons StarOS is becoming such an exciting platform. StarOS can be used as a multi-freq, Multi-polarity on the fly product. I will say that Alvarions choice to not make Dual Freq radios, has allowed them to deliver the highest gain from a radio with good clean filtering of the spectrum range. But nobody has a good excuse for not offering Dual Polarity, there just isn't a negative to it. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Agreed that Trango has clearly fallen behind...way behind. However, the VL is also far from being an end all solution. The VL has no mechanism to avoid interference (No RX threshold etc.) other than just to retransmit. Also, the VL does not offer the flexibility to change polarities on the fly. In fact Alvarion doesn't even offer an H Polarity SU INT and if you rotate the V Polarity SU to H you'll likely have a water penetration problem. The VL is only available in a 5.3GHz or 5.8GHz solution further limiting the flexibility the product offers. As our HUB sites increase in number and decrease in required coverage area we have found the 5.3GHz band to be VERY valuable. You do not have that flexibility with VL. When Alvarion is presented with the freq and polarity suggestions they simply respond with we're RF purists talking points. No indication that maybe, just maybe those would be good features to add to the product. We deployed a VL in an above average noisy environment with the latest v3.x firmware and the results were dismal to say the least. Fortunately upgrading to v4.0 allowed us to salvage the deal, but we still can only pass a few Mbps. This is far less than what a Trango M5830AP can do in a noisy environment. As with most things YMMV. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango multipoint radios will still provide excellent service. Just because I have soured on them does not mean they are not a platform for WISPs to consider. Scriv I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today. Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.6/453 - Release Date: 9/20/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Tom, so what you are changing the Trangos to ? Also, you can hack yourself a EXT Fox ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:25 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business. The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations. It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably. One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware. What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast. Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. Last year, I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not on their priority list. That is frustrating for my business. Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 markets. When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed their order with someone else. What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that can deliver packetlossless links. Even Wifi gear can offer packetlossless links. And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so I can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the roofs. Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext. I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing sales and getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango does not have a EXT antenna product line that delivers reliable ARQ. I haven't bought a new Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many pulls on the shelf waiting, when I need one. If Trango never released ARQ for the FOX, I would have never kown what I was missing. But now that I have experienced it, I can't live without it. The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) Waiting for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through. I can't count how much money I burned just waiting. I don't want to wait any more. I'm tired of waiting. I don't have the energy to keep waiting. I want it now. I need it now. This is a time to market business, where there is a domino effect of disaster tied to waiting. So when a company like Alvarion or Valemont come out with a product that will do the job, and I no longer have to wait, I see no reason to wait. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Tom, I hate to say this, but I think you missed the boat on your three $500/mo subs. Trango still
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Hello Tom, Brag about networks? Still do! lol Believe me when I say you're preaching to the choir when it comes to Trango. It has been a wild ride UP with the 5800/5830 product and certainly a disappointing DOWNWARD slide with the introduction of yet one miserable Trango product after another. As we predicted Trango has lost its rudder and drifting aimlessly without any apparent direction. This has been very disheartening to witness to say the least. I'm still holding out hope, but not holding my breath. Once the M5830 is gone we'll have moved along to another product. Hopefully that product will be Alvarion VL, but not until the RF purists (as they like to call themselves cough-bullshit-cough) make a few fundamental changes. Dual polarity and dual band on the fly. I've asked Patrick this question, but it appears the cat's got his tongue! grin What's the big deal for Alvarion to add another Atheros radio to the product that will give them dual polarity and dual band capability? Alvarion would rather you have to stock twice the SKUs (V H SUs) for the ability to change polarity? Not to mention the truck rolls required...this is simply out of the question. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 7:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Brad, I got an idea! How about Trango Fix ARQ for the 5830-EXT, so it can be like old times, and we can sit and brag on the list how great our networks are? One of the reasons StarOS is becoming such an exciting platform. StarOS can be used as a multi-freq, Multi-polarity on the fly product. I will say that Alvarions choice to not make Dual Freq radios, has allowed them to deliver the highest gain from a radio with good clean filtering of the spectrum range. But nobody has a good excuse for not offering Dual Polarity, there just isn't a negative to it. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Agreed that Trango has clearly fallen behind...way behind. However, the VL is also far from being an end all solution. The VL has no mechanism to avoid interference (No RX threshold etc.) other than just to retransmit. Also, the VL does not offer the flexibility to change polarities on the fly. In fact Alvarion doesn't even offer an H Polarity SU INT and if you rotate the V Polarity SU to H you'll likely have a water penetration problem. The VL is only available in a 5.3GHz or 5.8GHz solution further limiting the flexibility the product offers. As our HUB sites increase in number and decrease in required coverage area we have found the 5.3GHz band to be VERY valuable. You do not have that flexibility with VL. When Alvarion is presented with the freq and polarity suggestions they simply respond with we're RF purists talking points. No indication that maybe, just maybe those would be good features to add to the product. We deployed a VL in an above average noisy environment with the latest v3.x firmware and the results were dismal to say the least. Fortunately upgrading to v4.0 allowed us to salvage the deal, but we still can only pass a few Mbps. This is far less than what a Trango M5830AP can do in a noisy environment. As with most things YMMV. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango multipoint radios will still provide excellent service. Just because I have soured on them does not mean they are not a platform for WISPs to consider. Scriv I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today. Thanks. Mario -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
Cat doesn't have my tongue Brad. I'm just doing my best not to take the bait. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 6:59 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Hello Tom, Brag about networks? Still do! lol Believe me when I say you're preaching to the choir when it comes to Trango. It has been a wild ride UP with the 5800/5830 product and certainly a disappointing DOWNWARD slide with the introduction of yet one miserable Trango product after another. As we predicted Trango has lost its rudder and drifting aimlessly without any apparent direction. This has been very disheartening to witness to say the least. I'm still holding out hope, but not holding my breath. Once the M5830 is gone we'll have moved along to another product. Hopefully that product will be Alvarion VL, but not until the RF purists (as they like to call themselves cough-bullshit-cough) make a few fundamental changes. Dual polarity and dual band on the fly. I've asked Patrick this question, but it appears the cat's got his tongue! grin What's the big deal for Alvarion to add another Atheros radio to the product that will give them dual polarity and dual band capability? Alvarion would rather you have to stock twice the SKUs (V H SUs) for the ability to change polarity? Not to mention the truck rolls required...this is simply out of the question. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 7:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Brad, I got an idea! How about Trango Fix ARQ for the 5830-EXT, so it can be like old times, and we can sit and brag on the list how great our networks are? One of the reasons StarOS is becoming such an exciting platform. StarOS can be used as a multi-freq, Multi-polarity on the fly product. I will say that Alvarions choice to not make Dual Freq radios, has allowed them to deliver the highest gain from a radio with good clean filtering of the spectrum range. But nobody has a good excuse for not offering Dual Polarity, there just isn't a negative to it. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Agreed that Trango has clearly fallen behind...way behind. However, the VL is also far from being an end all solution. The VL has no mechanism to avoid interference (No RX threshold etc.) other than just to retransmit. Also, the VL does not offer the flexibility to change polarities on the fly. In fact Alvarion doesn't even offer an H Polarity SU INT and if you rotate the V Polarity SU to H you'll likely have a water penetration problem. The VL is only available in a 5.3GHz or 5.8GHz solution further limiting the flexibility the product offers. As our HUB sites increase in number and decrease in required coverage area we have found the 5.3GHz band to be VERY valuable. You do not have that flexibility with VL. When Alvarion is presented with the freq and polarity suggestions they simply respond with we're RF purists talking points. No indication that maybe, just maybe those would be good features to add to the product. We deployed a VL in an above average noisy environment with the latest v3.x firmware and the results were dismal to say the least. Fortunately upgrading to v4.0 allowed us to salvage the deal, but we still can only pass a few Mbps. This is far less than what a Trango M5830AP can do in a noisy environment. As with most things YMMV. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango multipoint radios will still
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
??? Simple question...no bait intended! What's the saying or how does it go? Something about heat and the kitchen...grin Hey, don't be embarrassed about Coppell. It's only a 2MB circuit and so far the VL is keeping up...barely. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Patrick Leary Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:03 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Cat doesn't have my tongue Brad. I'm just doing my best not to take the bait. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brad Belton Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 6:59 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Hello Tom, Brag about networks? Still do! lol Believe me when I say you're preaching to the choir when it comes to Trango. It has been a wild ride UP with the 5800/5830 product and certainly a disappointing DOWNWARD slide with the introduction of yet one miserable Trango product after another. As we predicted Trango has lost its rudder and drifting aimlessly without any apparent direction. This has been very disheartening to witness to say the least. I'm still holding out hope, but not holding my breath. Once the M5830 is gone we'll have moved along to another product. Hopefully that product will be Alvarion VL, but not until the RF purists (as they like to call themselves cough-bullshit-cough) make a few fundamental changes. Dual polarity and dual band on the fly. I've asked Patrick this question, but it appears the cat's got his tongue! grin What's the big deal for Alvarion to add another Atheros radio to the product that will give them dual polarity and dual band capability? Alvarion would rather you have to stock twice the SKUs (V H SUs) for the ability to change polarity? Not to mention the truck rolls required...this is simply out of the question. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 7:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Brad, I got an idea! How about Trango Fix ARQ for the 5830-EXT, so it can be like old times, and we can sit and brag on the list how great our networks are? One of the reasons StarOS is becoming such an exciting platform. StarOS can be used as a multi-freq, Multi-polarity on the fly product. I will say that Alvarions choice to not make Dual Freq radios, has allowed them to deliver the highest gain from a radio with good clean filtering of the spectrum range. But nobody has a good excuse for not offering Dual Polarity, there just isn't a negative to it. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Agreed that Trango has clearly fallen behind...way behind. However, the VL is also far from being an end all solution. The VL has no mechanism to avoid interference (No RX threshold etc.) other than just to retransmit. Also, the VL does not offer the flexibility to change polarities on the fly. In fact Alvarion doesn't even offer an H Polarity SU INT and if you rotate the V Polarity SU to H you'll likely have a water penetration problem. The VL is only available in a 5.3GHz or 5.8GHz solution further limiting the flexibility the product offers. As our HUB sites increase in number and decrease in required coverage area we have found the 5.3GHz band to be VERY valuable. You do not have that flexibility with VL. When Alvarion is presented with the freq and polarity suggestions they simply respond with we're RF purists talking points. No indication that maybe, just maybe those would be good features to add to the product. We deployed a VL in an above average noisy environment with the latest v3.x firmware and the results were dismal to say the least. Fortunately upgrading to v4.0 allowed us to salvage the deal, but we still can only pass a few Mbps. This is far less than what a Trango M5830AP can do in a noisy environment. As with most things YMMV. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links feeding towers to other towns I
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
snip What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another channel to play on. And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering. Alvarion gives that advantage. /snip Tom, Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
lol...too funny Charles. Tom has a good point and I largely agree, however there are times when push comes to shove and you have no option but to make a change. When that happens running around rotating client antennas 90* all over town really isn't an option. With Trango it's a simple command to flip polarities and even 5GHz bands if needed. No reason why Alvarion VL can't do that to if they wanted it. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:24 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links snip What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another channel to play on. And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering. Alvarion gives that advantage. /snip Tom, Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
That's why I asked, to what gear he was switching to ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:24 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links snip What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another channel to play on. And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering. Alvarion gives that advantage. /snip Tom, Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links
As you guys know my company was having some serious speed and reliability issues with our existing Trango backhaul some time back. We have about 25 tower locations in Southern Illinois which until recently were all fed from these Trango radios. We had countless short outages, signal irregularities, bandwidth crunches, etc. The Trangos used to work just fine. In the last year or so the Trango links have become a big problem for us. We tried several things to fix these problems but the Trangos were simply being pushed to do more than they were designed to do. The amount of packet counts, speed, etc. we needed to reliably serve the towers simply was too much for these radios and they were buckling under the strain. I have always thought highly of Alvarion and knew we could probably find a good place for their equipment in our network someday. Previously the trouble with choosing Alvarion had always been that we either needed something they did not offer at the time needed ( as was the case when we selected Trango for multi-point 5 GHz backhaul back in the day) or that they were too expensive. Alvarion finally has a place in our network. In the case of our troubled backhaul links Alvarion's VL product seemed to fit the bill to help us now. We had seen reports of 50,000 packet per second throughput and up to 35 megabit per second capacity with the new Version 4 of the VL firmware. When I asked about the product I was directed to a guy named Mike Cowan of Wireless Connections who is a RF engineer and sells Alvarion VL. Mike spent an incredible amount of time with our staff to look over the issues we were having and help us find ways of correcting it. He never charged us a dime for what I consider to be thousands of dollars worth of support and training. Mike Cowan and Alvarion did more for us to help us build a better WISP network than any vendor ever has since the day I became a WISP. We also had some serious peer to peer traffic issues on our network which were resolved with a Mikrotik box running to slow down that traffic. The combination of this box and the new more robust Alvarion VL backhaul has led customers to remark, It's like the difference between night and day. We have zero downtime on our backhaul now. We were getting countless reports of downtime from our network monitoring system before. Now it just works. I don't think I can overstate the impact Alvarion VL has had on my network. If you are having problems with your network then you need to at least call Alvarion and give them a shot. In the last three months or so we have migrated about 40% of our backhaul links over to Alvarion VL. Since that time outages on those most troubled links have vanished. Throughput has tripled. People have gone from screaming and yelling to sending their friends to us to hookup. If you guys want to compare the numbers out there I am sure you will find a few different systems that will give comparable umbers to what we are seeing with Alvarion VL. What you do not see in those numbers is the quality and the reliability of the system. I have always been a tinkerer and I will continue to tinker. What I believe though is that there is something to be said for buying a high-quality, engineered system and that is what you get with Alvarion VL. If you have tower locations and/or enterprise customers who cannot afford to be a test subject for your tinkering then consider calling Alvarion for those links. There is no shame in admitting you cannot possibly build a system as reliable as a company who has spent millions of dollars and hired countless designers to research and build a better data radio. I am certainly not ashamed to admit it. For the record, I publicly announced that I would report these findings after I bought some Alvarion VL some time back. This was prior to Alvarion joining WISPA as a vendor. While my report here is almost like reading an Alvarion advertisement I can tell you that it is not. I have not been paid to give this shining recommendation and Alvarion has earned my personal support outside of my relationship with them through WISPA. Thank you, Alvarion, for giving me a better network. Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
