Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
I believe he has exclusive use of a 300 foot tower and all grain legs he's the only one on. Shouldn't be any additional expense for him other than equipment. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 03, 2011 2:21 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. LOL. The question I have is Was OLD BOY on a per antenna or per grain leg contract? Meaning, to accommodate OLD HAM's Request, did Old boy get consessions of getting free colo for the added sector antennas? Or did Old boy have to pay more rent for more antennas? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Robert West mailto:robert.w...@just-micro.com To: 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 31, 2010 5:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Update on the competitor situation. Today was the big meeting between old boy, new boy and the owners of the grain legs that new boy is on. Again, old boy is related in a roundabout way to the grain legs owners but they decided not to have him do this project for them. Everyone showed up for the meeting but tower owner boys had a surprise visitor with them. They brought in OLD HAM RADIO GUY! Old Ham Radio Guy, or just Ham was there to be the knowledgeable neutral party. Ham looked over the equipment and the network structure, the RF being used and the interference that old boy was claiming. In the end, Old Ham was impressed with New Boys knowledge, professionalism and quality of equipment. Old boy... He wasn't impressed with his setup of much else and pointed out immediately the inherent weakness in his Omni antennas. However, Ham wrote up a plan for old boy and new boy to follow and the only real requirement is that old boy replace those Omnis with sectors and to agree on trying to separate their coverage area as best they can. Word is Old Boy has already obtained a few sectors so we shall see. Thanks for ideas on both sides of this. I just have to laugh at Old Ham Dude coming in as the wild card. You can't argue with an old ham no matter how much you try. _ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Even if they're wrong, you won't win! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 12/31/2010 4:04 PM, Robert West wrote: Update on the competitor situation. Today was the big meeting between old boy, new boy and the owners of the grain legs that new boy is on. Again, old boy is related in a roundabout way to the grain legs owners but they decided not to have him do this project for them. Everyone showed up for the meeting but tower owner boys had a surprise visitor with them. They brought in OLD HAM RADIO GUY! Old Ham Radio Guy, or just Ham was there to be the knowledgeable neutral party. Ham looked over the equipment and the network structure, the RF being used and the interference that old boy was claiming. In the end, Old Ham was impressed with New Boys knowledge, professionalism and quality of equipment. Old boy. He wasn't impressed with his setup of much else and pointed out immediately the inherent weakness in his Omni antennas. However, Ham wrote up a plan for old boy and new boy to follow and the only real requirement is that old boy replace those Omnis with sectors and to agree on trying to separate their coverage area as best they can. Word is Old Boy has already obtained a few sectors so we shall see. Thanks for ideas on both sides of this. I just have to laugh at Old Ham Dude coming in as the wild card. You can't argue with an old ham no matter how much you try. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Bottom line in all this is very simple. When your the first on a grainleg - make a contract that is rock solid. Get the right of first refusal on any frequency and get it on paper. While handshakes are nice - paper wins hands down. On Jan 1, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: Even if they're wrong, you won't win! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 12/31/2010 4:04 PM, Robert West wrote: Update on the competitor situation. Today was the big meeting between old boy, new boy and the owners of the grain legs that new boy is on. Again, old boy is related in a roundabout way to the grain legs owners but they decided not to have him do this project for them. Everyone showed up for the meeting but tower owner boys had a surprise visitor with them. They brought in OLD HAM RADIO GUY! Old Ham Radio Guy, or just “Ham” was there to be the knowledgeable neutral party. Ham looked over the equipment and the network structure, the RF being used and the interference that old boy was claiming. In the end, Old Ham was impressed with New Boys knowledge, professionalism and quality of equipment. Old boy….. He wasn’t impressed with his setup of much else and pointed out immediately the inherent weakness in his Omni antennas. However, Ham wrote up a plan for old boy and new boy to follow and the only real requirement is that old boy replace those Omnis with sectors and to agree on trying to separate their coverage area as best they can. Word is Old Boy has already obtained a few sectors so we shall see. Thanks for ideas on both sides of this. I just have to laugh at Old Ham Dude coming in as the wild card. You can’t argue with an old ham no matter how much you try. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ _ Glenn Kelley | Principal | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com Email: gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Ha! Ain't that the truth! From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 11:24 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Even if they're wrong, you won't win! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 12/31/2010 4:04 PM, Robert West wrote: Update on the competitor situation. Today was the big meeting between old boy, new boy and the owners of the grain legs that new boy is on. Again, old boy is related in a roundabout way to the grain legs owners but they decided not to have him do this project for them. Everyone showed up for the meeting but tower owner boys had a surprise visitor with them. They brought in OLD HAM RADIO GUY! Old Ham Radio Guy, or just Ham was there to be the knowledgeable neutral party. Ham looked over the equipment and the network structure, the RF being used and the interference that old boy was claiming. In the end, Old Ham was impressed with New Boys knowledge, professionalism and quality of equipment. Old boy... He wasn't impressed with his setup of much else and pointed out immediately the inherent weakness in his Omni antennas. However, Ham wrote up a plan for old boy and new boy to follow and the only real requirement is that old boy replace those Omnis with sectors and to agree on trying to separate their coverage area as best they can. Word is Old Boy has already obtained a few sectors so we shall see. Thanks for ideas on both sides of this. I just have to laugh at Old Ham Dude coming in as the wild card. You can't argue with an old ham no matter how much you try. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
But they aren't on the same grain legs, just within LOS of each other. But as far as getting things on paper, you're right although I'd rather have exclusive use. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Kelley Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 4:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Bottom line in all this is very simple. When your the first on a grainleg - make a contract that is rock solid. Get the right of first refusal on any frequency and get it on paper. While handshakes are nice - paper wins hands down. On Jan 1, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: Even if they're wrong, you won't win! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com http://www.ics-il.com/ On 12/31/2010 4:04 PM, Robert West wrote: Update on the competitor situation. Today was the big meeting between old boy, new boy and the owners of the grain legs that new boy is on. Again, old boy is related in a roundabout way to the grain legs owners but they decided not to have him do this project for them. Everyone showed up for the meeting but tower owner boys had a surprise visitor with them. They brought in OLD HAM RADIO GUY! Old Ham Radio Guy, or just Ham was there to be the knowledgeable neutral party. Ham looked over the equipment and the network structure, the RF being used and the interference that old boy was claiming. In the end, Old Ham was impressed with New Boys knowledge, professionalism and quality of equipment. Old boy... He wasn't impressed with his setup of much else and pointed out immediately the inherent weakness in his Omni antennas. However, Ham wrote up a plan for old boy and new boy to follow and the only real requirement is that old boy replace those Omnis with sectors and to agree on trying to separate their coverage area as best they can. Word is Old Boy has already obtained a few sectors so we shall see. Thanks for ideas on both sides of this. I just have to laugh at Old Ham Dude coming in as the wild card. You can't argue with an old ham no matter how much you try. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ _ Glenn Kelley | Principal | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com Email: gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
We have first right on all three bands. Saved us more than once - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 2:22 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. But they aren't on the same grain legs, just within LOS of each other. But as far as getting things on paper, you're right although I'd rather have exclusive use. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Kelley Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2011 4:58 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Bottom line in all this is very simple. When your the first on a grainleg - make a contract that is rock solid. Get the right of first refusal on any frequency and get it on paper. While handshakes are nice - paper wins hands down. On Jan 1, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: Even if they're wrong, you won't win! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.comhttp://www.ics-il.com/ On 12/31/2010 4:04 PM, Robert West wrote: Update on the competitor situation. Today was the big meeting between old boy, new boy and the owners of the grain legs that new boy is on. Again, old boy is related in a roundabout way to the grain legs owners but they decided not to have him do this project for them. Everyone showed up for the meeting but tower owner boys had a surprise visitor with them. They brought in OLD HAM RADIO GUY! Old Ham Radio Guy, or just Ham was there to be the knowledgeable neutral party. Ham looked over the equipment and the network structure, the RF being used and the interference that old boy was claiming. In the end, Old Ham was impressed with New Boys knowledge, professionalism and quality of equipment. Old boy. He wasn't impressed with his setup of much else and pointed out immediately the inherent weakness in his Omni antennas. However, Ham wrote up a plan for old boy and new boy to follow and the only real requirement is that old boy replace those Omnis with sectors and to agree on trying to separate their coverage area as best they can. Word is Old Boy has already obtained a few sectors so we shall see. Thanks for ideas on both sides of this. I just have to laugh at Old Ham Dude coming in as the wild card. You can't argue with an old ham no matter how much you try. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ _ Glenn Kelley | Principal | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com Email: gl...@hostmedic.commailto:gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3352 - Release Date: 01/01/11 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Amen to that! On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 5:33 PM, Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.comwrote: We have first right on all three bands. Saved us more than once - Jerry *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert West *Sent:* Saturday, January 01, 2011 2:22 PM *To:* 'WISPA General List' *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. But they aren’t on the same grain legs, just within LOS of each other. But as far as getting things on paper, you’re right although I’d rather have exclusive use. *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Glenn Kelley *Sent:* Saturday, January 01, 2011 4:58 PM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Bottom line in all this is very simple. When your the first on a grainleg - make a contract that is rock solid. Get the right of first refusal on any frequency and get it on paper. While handshakes are nice - paper wins hands down. On Jan 1, 2011, at 11:23 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: Even if they're wrong, you won't win! - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 12/31/2010 4:04 PM, Robert West wrote: Update on the competitor situation. Today was the big meeting between old boy, new boy and the owners of the grain legs that new boy is on. Again, old boy is related in a roundabout way to the grain legs owners but they decided not to have him do this project for them. Everyone showed up for the meeting but tower owner boys had a surprise visitor with them. They brought in OLD HAM RADIO GUY! Old Ham Radio Guy, or just “Ham” was there to be the knowledgeable neutral party. Ham looked over the equipment and the network structure, the RF being used and the interference that old boy was claiming. In the end, Old Ham was impressed with New Boys knowledge, professionalism and quality of equipment. Old boy….. He wasn’t impressed with his setup of much else and pointed out immediately the inherent weakness in his Omni antennas. However, Ham wrote up a plan for old boy and new boy to follow and the only real requirement is that old boy replace those Omnis with sectors and to agree on trying to separate their coverage area as best they can. Word is Old Boy has already obtained a few sectors so we shall see. Thanks for ideas on both sides of this. I just have to laugh at Old Ham Dude coming in as the wild card. You can’t argue with an old ham no matter how much you try. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ * _ * *Glenn Kelley | Principal | HostMedic |www.HostMedic.com * Email: gl...@hostmedic.com Pplease don't print this e-mail unless you really need to. -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3352 - Release Date: 01/01/11 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Update on the competitor situation. Today was the big meeting between old boy, new boy and the owners of the grain legs that new boy is on. Again, old boy is related in a roundabout way to the grain legs owners but they decided not to have him do this project for them. Everyone showed up for the meeting but tower owner boys had a surprise visitor with them. They brought in OLD HAM RADIO GUY! Old Ham Radio Guy, or just Ham was there to be the knowledgeable neutral party. Ham looked over the equipment and the network structure, the RF being used and the interference that old boy was claiming. In the end, Old Ham was impressed with New Boys knowledge, professionalism and quality of equipment. Old boy... He wasn't impressed with his setup of much else and pointed out immediately the inherent weakness in his Omni antennas. However, Ham wrote up a plan for old boy and new boy to follow and the only real requirement is that old boy replace those Omnis with sectors and to agree on trying to separate their coverage area as best they can. Word is Old Boy has already obtained a few sectors so we shall see. Thanks for ideas on both sides of this. I just have to laugh at Old Ham Dude coming in as the wild card. You can't argue with an old ham no matter how much you try. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Hey hey hey now, what are you sayin? - about a million years ago (well, 11 years) I put up a 12dBi omni (fed over ~100 feet of lmr600) with a hyperlink amp on it. That was about 3 weeks after I got hired (as a java programmer?!?) so... From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 8:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Well I was thinking an amp was involved to compensate... On Dec 29, 2010 9:15 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.commailto:robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: That's what I thought too especially since he's probably using a 12dbi omni or worse. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Coax up the tower? There has to be some serious loss there. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.commailto:robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: Old boy is using old Bullet2 with a stick omni. Has the antenna on top of the tower or leg with coax running all the way down to the ground where he has the Bullet. No sectors anywhere. New boy is outfitted with a modern and professional setup. 3 UBNT MIMO sectors per AP with Rocket2M. Backhauls are Bullet5M on a 29dbi Pacific Wireless grid. All links are at 10MHz channel width including the backhauls. We've discussed finding a way to turn off one chain of the rockets, I really wish UBNT had thought about that from the get go on these, seems to be a no brainer, anyhow we talked about that and honestly that would be a good idea but from all I've been hearing, I really don't think this is the entire issue old boy is having. With all the phone calls and noise he's been making, I'm thinking a lot of it comes from him just being pissed over having someone in his territory and doing it better than him. I would put money on the idea that even if new boy was able to turn off one chain of his rockets, old boy would still complain because he has been blaming new boy for every issue he can think of and word has it that the quality of his network sucked before any of this happened. And again, New Boy planned around the existing RF environment and it shouldn't have been an issue if not for his low power omnis. The other side should be able to admit that he needs to upgrade a bit in order to meet half way, I think. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Robert, Still missing some relevent detail... New WISP uses 2.4 sectors. Is the Old WISP boy also using 2.4G sectors? As well, is the Rocket gear Single Pol or MIMO dual pol gear? Expecially, is the new provider's 5.8G PTP and Rocket Sectors MIMO? Legally- Part15 means everyone must deploy assuming the risk that there could be interference. There are two potential outcomes. 1) Coordination and cooperation or 2) survival of the fittest. This might also come down to who has the best contract with the grain towers. Whether anyone gained solid non-interference clauses or spectrum exclusivity clauses in their contracts, versus hand shake deals. I dont agree with the assessment that the problem is the Old Boy's bad design or unwillingness to change. (see below for justification) The fact is, he was there first and had the flexibility to design optimally for his need, and there was really no need for him to design for the new providers need, becaue the new provider did not exist at that time. At the end oif the day, he has pre-existing custoemrs that need him and that he needs revenue from, and he isn;t going to bail on that pre-existing money tree, that has been in motion for years. He will fight harder than the new provider because, he has more at stake to protect, even though it may be on a smaller scale. Both parties are equally obligated to build their networks as interference resilent as possible. But there are multiple dissimilar approaches to accomplishing that that is jsut as good as another. So who's to say what is ultimately the best practice. Its tough for a company who has built a network on a single pol and 20Mhz design, and change to a dual pol 10Mhz design. Whats less efficient? Dual Omnis each single pol, or two sectors with dual pol? Omnis are not always bad, IF there is adequate physical obstruction isolation between grain towers, and using polarity
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
I did a climb for a local WISP back in 2002. We put a 325 foot run of LMR400 up a tower with 1 watt amps at the top and bottom. This fed into a Cisco 340 and an omni. Could see that thing on a site survey 30 miles away. -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting Tower Climbing Network Support From: Ryan Goldberg rgoldb...@compudyne.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 15:14:08 + To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Hey hey hey now, what are you sayin? about a million years ago (well, 11 years) I put up a 12dBi omni (fed over ~100 feet of lmr600) with a hyperlink amp on it. That was about 3 weeks after I got hired (as a java programmer?!?) so From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 8:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Well I was thinking an amp was involved to compensate... On Dec 29, 2010 9:15 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: That's what I thought too especially since he's probably using a 12dbi omni or worse. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Coax up the tower? There has to be some serious loss there. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: Old boy is using old Bullet2 with a stick omni. Has the antenna on top of the tower or leg with coax running all the way down to the ground where he has the Bullet. No sectors anywhere. New boy is outfitted with a modern and professional setup. 3 UBNT MIMO sectors per AP with Rocket2M. Backhauls are Bullet5M on a 29dbi Pacific Wireless grid. All links are at 10MHz channel width including the backhauls. We've discussed finding a way to turn off one chain of the rockets, I really wish UBNT had thought about that from the get go on these, seems to be a no brainer, anyhow we talked about that and honestly that would be a good idea but from all I've been hearing, I really don't think this is the entire issue old boy is having. With all the phone calls and noise he's been making, I'm thinking a lot of it comes from him just being pissed over having someone in his territory and doing it better than him. I would put money on the idea that even if new boy was able to turn off one chain of his rockets, old boy would still complain because he has been blaming new boy for every issue he can think of and word has it that the quality of his network sucked before any of this happened. And again, New Boy planned around the existing RF environment and it shouldn't have been an issue if not for his low power omnis. The other side should be able to admit that he needs to upgrade a bit in order to meet half way, I think. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Robert, Still missing some relevent detail... New WISP uses 2.4 sectors. Is the Old WISP boy also using 2.4G sectors? As well, is the Rocket gear Single Pol or MIMO dual pol gear? Expecially, is the new provider's 5.8G PTP and Rocket Sectors MIMO? Legally- Part15 means everyone must deploy assuming the risk that there could be interference. There are two potential outcomes. 1) Coordination and cooperation or 2) survival of the fittest. This might also come down to who has the best contract with the grain towers. Whether anyone gained solid non-interference clauses or spectrum exclusivity clauses in their contracts, versus hand shake deals. I dont agree with the assessment that the problem is the Old Boy's bad design or unwillingness to change. (see below for justification) The fact is, he was there first and had the flexibility to design optimally for his need, and there was really no need for him to design for the new providers need, becaue the new provider did not exist at that time. At the end oif the day, he has pre-existing custoemrs that need him and that he needs revenue from, and he isn;t going to bail on that pre-existing money tree, that has been in motion for years. He will fight harder than the new provider because, he has more at stake to protect, even though it may be on a smaller scale. Both parties are equally obligated to build their networks as interference resilent
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
And the EIRP was...? J An OMNI 10 years or so would be cool. Now, not in my neighborhood! I use one for site surveys at times when I'm looking for competing 2.4 frequencies. The last time I fired it up at home the radios filled the screen. Using 5.8 at home now for the laptops. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Justin Wilson Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 10:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. I did a climb for a local WISP back in 2002. We put a 325 foot run of LMR400 up a tower with 1 watt amps at the top and bottom. This fed into a Cisco 340 and an omni. Could see that thing on a site survey 30 miles away. -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog - xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw - Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting - Tower Climbing - Network Support _ From: Ryan Goldberg rgoldb...@compudyne.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 15:14:08 + To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Hey hey hey now, what are you sayin? - about a million years ago (well, 11 years) I put up a 12dBi omni (fed over ~100 feet of lmr600) with a hyperlink amp on it. That was about 3 weeks after I got hired (as a java programmer?!?) so. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 8:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Well I was thinking an amp was involved to compensate... On Dec 29, 2010 9:15 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: That's what I thought too especially since he's probably using a 12dbi omni or worse. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Coax up the tower? There has to be some serious loss there. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: Old boy is using old Bullet2 with a stick omni. Has the antenna on top of the tower or leg with coax running all the way down to the ground where he has the Bullet. No sectors anywhere. New boy is outfitted with a modern and professional setup. 3 UBNT MIMO sectors per AP with Rocket2M. Backhauls are Bullet5M on a 29dbi Pacific Wireless grid. All links are at 10MHz channel width including the backhauls. We've discussed finding a way to turn off one chain of the rockets, I really wish UBNT had thought about that from the get go on these, seems to be a no brainer, anyhow we talked about that and honestly that would be a good idea but from all I've been hearing, I really don't think this is the entire issue old boy is having. With all the phone calls and noise he's been making, I'm thinking a lot of it comes from him just being pissed over having someone in his territory and doing it better than him. I would put money on the idea that even if new boy was able to turn off one chain of his rockets, old boy would still complain because he has been blaming new boy for every issue he can think of and word has it that the quality of his network sucked before any of this happened. And again, New Boy planned around the existing RF environment and it shouldn't have been an issue if not for his low power omnis. The other side should be able to admit that he needs to upgrade a bit in order to meet half way, I think. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Robert, Still missing some relevent detail... New WISP uses 2.4 sectors. Is the Old WISP boy also using 2.4G sectors? As well, is the Rocket gear Single Pol or MIMO dual pol gear? Expecially, is the new provider's 5.8G PTP and Rocket Sectors MIMO? Legally- Part15 means everyone must deploy assuming the risk that there could be interference. There are two potential outcomes. 1) Coordination and cooperation or 2) survival of the fittest. This might also come down to who has the best contract with the grain towers. Whether anyone gained solid non-interference clauses or spectrum exclusivity clauses in their contracts, versus hand shake deals. I dont agree with the assessment that the problem is the Old Boy's bad design or unwillingness to change. (see below for justification) The fact is, he was there first and had the flexibility to design optimally for his need, and there was really
[WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn't be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, What's Up? Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, Chill, don't even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He's within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old wisp boy. New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other than old wisp upgrade his OMNIs to sectors in order to isolate the RF away from a competing channel. Anyone have any solid resolutions that he can throw out to old wisp boy ? Surely someone here has been there before. Thanks! Robert West Just Micro Digital Services Inc. 740-335-7020 Logo5 image001.gif WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote: I’m throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That’s the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It’s reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn’t be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, “What’s Up?” Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, “Chill, don’t even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network”. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He’s within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old wisp boy. New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other than old wisp upgrade his OMNIs to sectors in order to isolate the RF away from a competing channel. Anyone have any solid resolutions that he can throw out to old wisp boy ? Surely someone here has been there before. Thanks! Robert West Just Micro Digital Services Inc. 740-335-7020 [image: Logo5] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Rather than 3.65 is there a reason not to use 5GHz? I haven't tested the DTS stuff yet, but if it works in AirMax it would open plenty of spectrum (assuming you don't have radar issues). Even so I would look at 5MHz Airmax channels in the 5GHz range, if old wisp is running 2.4 shouldn't be an issue, your only conflict would be your backhauls and depending on backhaul distance you can use 5.2 or 3.6 when you gets the license. I haven't hung any new 2.4 gear in over 3 years because the spectrum has gotten so bad and I'm in pretty much the middle of nowhere. As for resolution with the old wisp, I would go to the meeting, say I've tried to get along with the old wisp, but that his system was set up in such as way as to not be able to handle the noise that is inherent to license free spectrum. Include the appropriate quotes from part15 about accepting interference. I'm assuming new wisp customers aren't having a problem. I would point that out. My network is fine because it is designed properly his is falling down because it was designed poorly. I would also point out that all of your equipment falls within part15 specifications (if you are using AirMax for everything it should). I would asked the competitor to provide similar assurances. On 12/29/10 10:21 AM, Chuck Hogg wrote: Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com mailto:robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I’m throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That’s the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It’s reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn’t be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, “What’s Up?” Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, “Chill, don’t even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network”. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He’s within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old wisp boy. New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other than old wisp upgrade his OMNIs to sectors in order to isolate the RF away from a competing channel. Anyone have any solid resolutions that he can throw out to old wisp boy ? Surely someone here has been there before. Thanks! Robert West Just Micro Digital Services Inc. 740-335-7020 Logo5 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
He tried 5ghz from the very start but due to the tree situation he couldn't get any penetration but 2.4 put him where he wanted to be. I had the same reservations about using 2.4 but he's been flying just fine with no issues on his side of things. The issue is, as you pointed out, a poorly designed network that will never tolerate interference. Good thoughts, thanks. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Sam Tetherow Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 12:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Rather than 3.65 is there a reason not to use 5GHz? I haven't tested the DTS stuff yet, but if it works in AirMax it would open plenty of spectrum (assuming you don't have radar issues). Even so I would look at 5MHz Airmax channels in the 5GHz range, if old wisp is running 2.4 shouldn't be an issue, your only conflict would be your backhauls and depending on backhaul distance you can use 5.2 or 3.6 when you gets the license. I haven't hung any new 2.4 gear in over 3 years because the spectrum has gotten so bad and I'm in pretty much the middle of nowhere. As for resolution with the old wisp, I would go to the meeting, say I've tried to get along with the old wisp, but that his system was set up in such as way as to not be able to handle the noise that is inherent to license free spectrum. Include the appropriate quotes from part15 about accepting interference. I'm assuming new wisp customers aren't having a problem. I would point that out. My network is fine because it is designed properly his is falling down because it was designed poorly. I would also point out that all of your equipment falls within part15 specifications (if you are using AirMax for everything it should). I would asked the competitor to provide similar assurances. On 12/29/10 10:21 AM, Chuck Hogg wrote: Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn't be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, What's Up? Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, Chill, don't even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He's within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old wisp boy. New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other than old wisp upgrade his OMNIs to sectors in order to isolate the RF away from a competing channel. Anyone have any solid resolutions that he can throw out to old wisp boy
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Problem is old boy doesn't want to change a thing, he seems to think he's king of the roost since he was first in. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn't be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, What's Up? Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, Chill, don't even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He's within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old wisp boy. New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other than old wisp upgrade his OMNIs to sectors in order to isolate the RF away from a competing channel. Anyone have any solid resolutions that he can throw out to old wisp boy ? Surely someone here has been there before. Thanks! Robert West Just Micro Digital Services Inc. 740-335-7020 Logo5 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Might be worth bringing up those rulings in the 3.65 bands about no first squatters rights and mention to old boy that if they don't get those rights in a licensed service, he should not expect them in unlicensed. You are still going to have to keep the mindset that this guy is thinking my mind is made up, don't try to confuse me with the facts. Some people like to refer to capitalism as being great until they have a competitor show up trying to take some of their market share...then the capitalism should only apply to them because they thought of it first... Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com www.Broadband-Mapping.com From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:01 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn't want to change a thing, he seems to think he's king of the roost since he was first in. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn't be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, What's Up? Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, Chill, don't even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He's within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old wisp boy. New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other than old wisp upgrade his OMNIs to sectors in order to isolate the RF away from a competing channel. Anyone have any solid resolutions that he can throw out to old wisp boy ? Surely someone here has been there before. Thanks! Robert West Just Micro Digital Services Inc. 740-335-7020 Logo5 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Sounds like you've bent over backwards to this point. I'd now send a letter to all your tower owners outlining what you've done to be cooperative, list the applicable CFR references and go tell him to take a flying leap, but that is just me. We had a competitor (actually a customer who thought it looked simple) come in and try to mess with us. He spent so much time trying to strong arm our tower owners, kill our signal, take down our advertising, and bad mouth us, that he neglected the handful of customers he had. He lasted a little less than a year and we ended up with all his customers. This is one of the reasons I'm glad to be on another side of this industry now. Regards, Cameron On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.comwrote: Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert West *Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM *To:* 'WISPA General List' *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn’t want to change a thing, he seems to think he’s king of the roost since he was first in. *From:* wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Chuck Hogg *Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I’m throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That’s the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It’s reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn’t be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, “What’s Up?” Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, “Chill, don’t even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network”. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He’s within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
I had this happen once. We met and decided that even though I was the old boy, I went ahead and switched to 900MHz. In the end, we got all the NLOS customers and he only got the fewer LOS. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.comwrote: I’m throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That’s the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It’s reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn’t be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, “What’s Up?” Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, “Chill, don’t even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network”. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He’s within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old wisp boy. New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other than old wisp upgrade his OMNIs to sectors in order to isolate the RF away from a competing channel. Anyone have any solid resolutions that he can throw out to old wisp boy ? Surely someone here has been there before. Thanks! Robert West Just Micro Digital Services Inc. 740-335-7020 [image: Logo5] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Not sure how 'old boy's' (OB) crappy network design is 'new boy's' (NB) problem. Unlicensed spectrum is just that, unlicensed, if he wants protection he should have bought spectrum. As long as NB is following part15 rules and not maliciously trying to interfere with OB's network then OB has to accept interference from NB's network, just as NB has to accept interference from OB's network. It seems that NB has tried to get along, it is about time OB started taking some responsibility for his network. I don't get to tell everyone that bought a wireless router in town to take them back because they interfere with my WISP. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless On 12/29/10 1:16 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry *From:*wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert West *Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM *To:* 'WISPA General List' *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn't want to change a thing, he seems to think he's king of the roost since he was first in. *From:*wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Chuck Hogg *Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com mailto:robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn't be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, What's Up? Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, Chill, don't even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He's within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
I agree with your analysis but unless NB is very knowledgeable and sharp in explaining the law there is a good chance that OB is going to convince or confuse the audience at that meeting that NB is the villain who should be thrown off the grain legs. On 12/29/2010 12:20 PM, Sam Tetherow wrote: Not sure how 'old boy's' (OB) crappy network design is 'new boy's' (NB) problem. Unlicensed spectrum is just that, unlicensed, if he wants protection he should have bought spectrum. As long as NB is following part15 rules and not maliciously trying to interfere with OB's network then OB has to accept interference from NB's network, just as NB has to accept interference from OB's network. It seems that NB has tried to get along, it is about time OB started taking some responsibility for his network. I don't get to tell everyone that bought a wireless router in town to take them back because they interfere with my WISP. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless On 12/29/10 1:16 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesnt want to change a thing, he seems to think hes king of the roost since he was first in. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: Im throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. Thats the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) Its reported that boy
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
This is different than having to deal with consumer routers. This is a matter of paying attention the environment you are rolling into. Had NB looked at the spectrum, he would have have seen the noise floor and realized he needed to co-ordinate before rolling out, or looked at a different band. Instead, NB threw his gear in the air and is now trying to figure out how to fix it. From a Part-15 rules standpoint you are correct. From a professional standpoint, NB did a crappy job of planning and now wants to throw the responsibility for his poor planning back on the other guy. With that said, had NB contacted OB in advance, and discussed co-locating and OB told him to piss off, then that's a different situation and OB gets what he deserves. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Sam Tetherow Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 12:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Not sure how 'old boy's' (OB) crappy network design is 'new boy's' (NB) problem. Unlicensed spectrum is just that, unlicensed, if he wants protection he should have bought spectrum. As long as NB is following part15 rules and not maliciously trying to interfere with OB's network then OB has to accept interference from NB's network, just as NB has to accept interference from OB's network. It seems that NB has tried to get along, it is about time OB started taking some responsibility for his network. I don't get to tell everyone that bought a wireless router in town to take them back because they interfere with my WISP. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless On 12/29/10 1:16 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn't want to change a thing, he seems to think he's king of the roost since he was first in. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.orgmailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.commailto:robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn't be happy
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
I agree with Jerry 100% on this. Travis Microserv On 12/29/2010 1:46 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: This is different than having to deal with consumer routers. This is a matter of paying attention the environment you are rolling into. Had NB looked at the spectrum, he would have have seen the noise floor and realized he needed to co-ordinate before rolling out, or looked at a different band. Instead, NB threw his gear in the air and is now trying to figure out how to fix it. From a Part-15 rules standpoint you are correct. From a professional standpoint, NB did a crappy job of planning and now wants to throw the responsibility for his poor planning back on the other guy. With that said, had NB contacted OB in advance, and discussed co-locating and OB told him to piss off, then that's a different situation and OB gets what he deserves. - Jerry *From:*wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Sam Tetherow *Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 12:21 PM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Not sure how 'old boy's' (OB) crappy network design is 'new boy's' (NB) problem. Unlicensed spectrum is just that, unlicensed, if he wants protection he should have bought spectrum. As long as NB is following part15 rules and not maliciously trying to interfere with OB's network then OB has to accept interference from NB's network, just as NB has to accept interference from OB's network. It seems that NB has tried to get along, it is about time OB started taking some responsibility for his network. I don't get to tell everyone that bought a wireless router in town to take them back because they interfere with my WISP. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless On 12/29/10 1:16 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry *From:*wireless-boun...@wispa.org mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Robert West *Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM *To:* 'WISPA General List' *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn't want to change a thing, he seems to think he's king of the roost since he was first in. *From:*wireless-boun...@wispa.org mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] *On Behalf Of *Chuck Hogg *Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM *To:* WISPA General List *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com mailto:robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
their first. So summary of recommendation 1) Check contractual protections in both WISP's grain tower contracts. 2) Try each picking a unique exclusive polarity for their radios. 3) ONly Deploy AP and BAckhaul radios that have built-in spectrum analyzers. (Ubiquiti-M or Trango Tlink). If using Ubiquiti and MIMO, for Rockets cap off chain 1 antenna to disable, or using Bullets that are single pol MIMO. 4) Use 5.2/4 for backhauls everywhere possible. 5) Where non-interference cant be acheived at 2.4G, use 3.65 and 900Mhz. Also another approach IF coexistance can be acheived. Then you are back at aquisition discussion. How can aquisition be avoided. Two ways... 1) AP sharing or 2) Customer swapping. 1- Come to the realizing that two tower cant exist next to each other in the same market. Agree to share your APs with him, and and vice versa, at an equal bi-direction monitary rate to each other. Some APs will get taken down. You will control some towers and he'll control others. But neither will loose control of their customer. 2- All your customers next to his tower you sell to him, and his customers next to you he sells to you. Do it on a 1 to 1 trade. And stop tradding when there is no more interference. Pay the same rate bi-directionally, so no dolalrs have to change hands. Then its just a few phone calls... Hey... let me introduce you to your new provider, you'll get bills from him now. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Robert West To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:55 AM Subject: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn't be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, What's Up? Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, Chill, don't even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He's within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old wisp boy. New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other than old wisp upgrade his OMNIs to sectors in order to isolate the RF away from a competing channel. Anyone have any solid resolutions that he can throw out to old wisp boy ? Surely someone here has been there before. Thanks! Robert West Just Micro Digital Services Inc. 740-335-7020 -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
their 50 subs, closest to their towers, and wouldn't ever think about marketing their backdoor step.. I'd rather focus on the 200 customers in the other direction that I'm closer to. There is enough market to go around. All new undeployed markets are fair game to who get their first. So summary of recommendation 1) Check contractual protections in both WISP's grain tower contracts. 2) Try each picking a unique exclusive polarity for their radios. 3) ONly Deploy AP and BAckhaul radios that have built-in spectrum analyzers. (Ubiquiti-M or Trango Tlink). If using Ubiquiti and MIMO, for Rockets cap off chain 1 antenna to disable, or using Bullets that are single pol MIMO. 4) Use 5.2/4 for backhauls everywhere possible. 5) Where non-interference cant be acheived at 2.4G, use 3.65 and 900Mhz. Also another approach IF coexistance can be acheived. Then you are back at aquisition discussion. How can aquisition be avoided. Two ways... 1) AP sharing or 2) Customer swapping. 1- Come to the realizing that two tower cant exist next to each other in the same market. Agree to share your APs with him, and and vice versa, at an equal bi-direction monitary rate to each other. Some APs will get taken down. You will control some towers and he'll control others. But neither will loose control of their customer. 2- All your customers next to his tower you sell to him, and his customers next to you he sells to you. Do it on a 1 to 1 trade. And stop tradding when there is no more interference. Pay the same rate bi-directionally, so no dolalrs have to change hands. Then its just a few phone calls... Hey... let me introduce you to your new provider, you'll get bills from him now. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com *To:* 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:55 AM *Subject:* [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. I’m throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That’s the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It’s reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn’t be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, “What’s Up?” Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, “Chill, don’t even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network”. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He’s within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old wisp boy. New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other than old wisp upgrade his OMNIs to sectors in order to isolate the RF away from a competing channel. Anyone have any solid resolutions that he can throw out to old wisp boy ? Surely someone here has been there before
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
? This really doesn't sound like such a difficult challenge to resolve. If new WISP is lighting up tons of grain legs (aka lots of markets), It wouldn't be that painful to stay off old Old Boy's network area, it cant be all that large? I can give an example of one of our markets, where there are about 400 homes and three WISPs, where 900Mhz is the ONLY option.. . I use sectors, they tend to use Omnis. We manage to co-exist. Omnis are plusses, because I know their is a financial incenticve for them to select Verticle pol, so when I use sectors it makes it much easier for me to steer around them. And I'm not greedy. I let them have their 50 subs, closest to their towers, and wouldn't ever think about marketing their backdoor step.. I'd rather focus on the 200 customers in the other direction that I'm closer to. There is enough market to go around. All new undeployed markets are fair game to who get their first. So summary of recommendation 1) Check contractual protections in both WISP's grain tower contracts. 2) Try each picking a unique exclusive polarity for their radios. 3) ONly Deploy AP and BAckhaul radios that have built-in spectrum analyzers. (Ubiquiti-M or Trango Tlink). If using Ubiquiti and MIMO, for Rockets cap off chain 1 antenna to disable, or using Bullets that are single pol MIMO. 4) Use 5.2/4 for backhauls everywhere possible. 5) Where non-interference cant be acheived at 2.4G, use 3.65 and 900Mhz. Also another approach IF coexistance can be acheived. Then you are back at aquisition discussion. How can aquisition be avoided. Two ways... 1) AP sharing or 2) Customer swapping. 1- Come to the realizing that two tower cant exist next to each other in the same market. Agree to share your APs with him, and and vice versa, at an equal bi-direction monitary rate to each other. Some APs will get taken down. You will control some towers and he'll control others. But neither will loose control of their customer. 2- All your customers next to his tower you sell to him, and his customers next to you he sells to you. Do it on a 1 to 1 trade. And stop tradding when there is no more interference. Pay the same rate bi-directionally, so no dolalrs have to change hands. Then its just a few phone calls... Hey... let me introduce you to your new provider, you'll get bills from him now. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Robert West mailto:robert.w...@just-micro.com *To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:55 AM *Subject:* [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. I’m throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That’s the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It’s reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn’t be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, “What’s Up?” Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, “Chill, don’t even think
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Why don't the two WISPS peer with each other? That seems like a much better outcome to me. Coordinate all your gear together, go in together on backhaul etc. Form a strategic partnership. - -- Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com) Systems craftsman for the stars http://www.knownelement.com Mobile: 626 539 4344 Office: 310 929 8793 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJNG7b8AAoJEMvvG/TyLEAtDhsP/30tw5lT6t1l0IcBmmm9bs8e Qf06WQbo9IgGxGlcWOQyL3au/nQmPYuFV8d3JVp71nkGXjVKRKPrGvdG3dBjfjix xrnplevyRZ205ksgYa7dJK1IsUfTTDXVo5Yw/LdrnIG9M0Mn3hSy8QmnCr7H1wZD zy5BLXqyf/QyLEy4oD7CN9EXk553rVf6I0ElmLRmYStK9oIhL79b3HrkN9pBxpZ+ BtEtrEAZzjzcK8bLoY3KmvKqK+V98/oQU73CAXwME/GOpiyFCWv9AX7UZyysMrIZ 3z0p9G9PtcvhuCRhiehjFsdRZV+JvznO/gI00fnCHZWRHsHT0yb4W6AyqLsYEgsM lBMBw1iCG/UZ24luJamM90h0KfVQ48o8mkI3h4AI1vVN658UNJoVsvX4IUqH8BcN 3d1r/w9WKEPOaEVd7F4fR7aCuLipZzIZNsTLoA5DLPAMZFCGYDRC57sydTTqgyL6 QIzfbhbICnv7a7ko+n0s7MvHaI1D/PNi5ckXxdCef/Nw5de0cv7M1PM9fK9fHomz CZhkMJA0qPv0V7yQr6+dIOTZLf19DyHk5uVzQXIITN9bO55XTmGV7ZgYnPCMMtwe 2iQ1l/XzywcaKbOoV44rP8yhIRqTol14XKqIgICQuWyQos+m/qTI/lQ26E2g8SQr cu0HzLf7IWOhom6UWTha =py8H -END PGP SIGNATURE- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
I dont have the time either, I'm just lazy. And its easier to write, than face the reality that I should really be working :-) After News years, I'll probably disappear for a while, work is piling up. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Chuck Hogg To: WISPA General List Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Tom: I'm always impressed with the time you take in writing the responses you do. I wish I had that kind of time, I barely have enough time to read them. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net wrote: Robert, Still missing some relevent detail... New WISP uses 2.4 sectors. Is the Old WISP boy also using 2.4G sectors? As well, is the Rocket gear Single Pol or MIMO dual pol gear? Expecially, is the new provider's 5.8G PTP and Rocket Sectors MIMO? Legally- Part15 means everyone must deploy assuming the risk that there could be interference. There are two potential outcomes. 1) Coordination and cooperation or 2) survival of the fittest. This might also come down to who has the best contract with the grain towers. Whether anyone gained solid non-interference clauses or spectrum exclusivity clauses in their contracts, versus hand shake deals. I dont agree with the assessment that the problem is the Old Boy's bad design or unwillingness to change. (see below for justification) The fact is, he was there first and had the flexibility to design optimally for his need, and there was really no need for him to design for the new providers need, becaue the new provider did not exist at that time. At the end oif the day, he has pre-existing custoemrs that need him and that he needs revenue from, and he isn;t going to bail on that pre-existing money tree, that has been in motion for years. He will fight harder than the new provider because, he has more at stake to protect, even though it may be on a smaller scale. Both parties are equally obligated to build their networks as interference resilent as possible. But there are multiple dissimilar approaches to accomplishing that that is jsut as good as another. So who's to say what is ultimately the best practice. Its tough for a company who has built a network on a single pol and 20Mhz design, and change to a dual pol 10Mhz design. Whats less efficient? Dual Omnis each single pol, or two sectors with dual pol? Omnis are not always bad, IF there is adequate physical obstruction isolation between grain towers, and using polarity as a mechanism of interference isolation also helps. If some else is operating on 20Mhz, a new provider on 10Mhz may not help, because it still steps on half the 20Mhz channel. I'd argue that the best way to coexist is to get rid of the Dual Pol on the New provider's Mimo rockets, IF THEY are using Dual POl MIMO. If Old BOy is using Omnis everywhere he likely is using Verticle pol everywhere. So, New WISP should physically CAP the verticle pol on their Rocket radios, and leave Chain Zero on Horizontal polarity only. Then move new WISP back to 20Mhz if you need to to regain the capacity. Problem solved. But if you rely on polarity as the mechanism of isolation, it simplifies everything, so much easier than channel coordination. Remember that Polarity isolation often has much better isolation than adjacent channel isolation. With OFDM you really need 20db of SNR min, and polarity isolation will get you that. Its hard to get that without polarity isolation. Bottom line is, if you both choose a different polarity, and stick to it, you wont interfere with each other, just with yourself. But, self-interference is much easier to isolate, when you know everything about your own network, and can make the best choices and trade off for your network. And you can make those changes without answering or coordinating with someone else. Thats the benefit of relying on Pol isolation. If old boy is using Omni, and new WISP is using sectors, its a perfect situation for old boy to take Verticle and New WISP to take Horizontal. Dont get me wrong, I love Ubiquiti MIMO when I can use it, but MIMO has a major flaw, and that is co-existing with others is much more difficult, expecially if they are using 20Mhz gear. I hate to say it, but ethically, I'd side with Old WISP boy. Comming in new with MIMO gear would surely going to cause interference to pre-existing deployments, and the MIMO would restrict your flexibility to resolve. If a new provider came in with UNiquiti standard (non MIMO model), Id call it even more irresponsbile. Bulilt-in spectrum analyzers are NEEDED in today's day and age to adeqautely co-exist. To be honest... I really think the burden to prevent interference belongs to the new installer during installation
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Unfortunately Jack is right on this. When I was deploying for EarthLink in Philly a competitive WISP using Canopy in the 5.7 band got an emergency session in Federal Court. This judge was sympathetic to the small WISP being bullied by big EarthLink. We were both running Canopy and small WISP had a 50/50 split while we were running 75/25 upload download ratio. We were not being bother by them by they were being bothered by us for half of their uplink time slot. As our lawyers realized the Judge was not buying on to the you have to accept interference and there are no protection rules, we were able to force the issue and conversations to the fact that small WISP was being stubborn and not trying to work things out with us technically. End result was that we both went to a 66/33 split and all was well. The story to be learned is that the judge you may be in front of will not understand the actual law and the technical parameters, he could very well rule on what that judge thinks is right and shut you down. You would be left to fight under appeals and probably be off the air the whole time. A very costly battle, one of which the person with the deepest pockets survives. Understand that I did not say the one who was in the right survives... Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com www.Broadband-Mapping.com From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 3:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. I agree with your analysis but unless NB is very knowledgeable and sharp in explaining the law there is a good chance that OB is going to convince or confuse the audience at that meeting that NB is the villain who should be thrown off the grain legs. On 12/29/2010 12:20 PM, Sam Tetherow wrote: Not sure how 'old boy's' (OB) crappy network design is 'new boy's' (NB) problem. Unlicensed spectrum is just that, unlicensed, if he wants protection he should have bought spectrum. As long as NB is following part15 rules and not maliciously trying to interfere with OB's network then OB has to accept interference from NB's network, just as NB has to accept interference from OB's network. It seems that NB has tried to get along, it is about time OB started taking some responsibility for his network. I don't get to tell everyone that bought a wireless router in town to take them back because they interfere with my WISP. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless On 12/29/10 1:16 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn't want to change a thing, he seems to think he's king of the roost since he was first in. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Or better yet turn off those silly Omni sites and let the old boy wholesale on the new boys network. Old boy doesn't have to maintain sites and bandwidth anymore and the spectrum will get used most efficiently because both operators will not be trying to dance around each other's channel plans. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com www.Broadband-Mapping.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Charles N Wyble Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:33 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Why don't the two WISPS peer with each other? That seems like a much better outcome to me. Coordinate all your gear together, go in together on backhaul etc. Form a strategic partnership. - -- Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com) Systems craftsman for the stars http://www.knownelement.com Mobile: 626 539 4344 Office: 310 929 8793 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJNG7b8AAoJEMvvG/TyLEAtDhsP/30tw5lT6t1l0IcBmmm9bs8e Qf06WQbo9IgGxGlcWOQyL3au/nQmPYuFV8d3JVp71nkGXjVKRKPrGvdG3dBjfjix xrnplevyRZ205ksgYa7dJK1IsUfTTDXVo5Yw/LdrnIG9M0Mn3hSy8QmnCr7H1wZD zy5BLXqyf/QyLEy4oD7CN9EXk553rVf6I0ElmLRmYStK9oIhL79b3HrkN9pBxpZ+ BtEtrEAZzjzcK8bLoY3KmvKqK+V98/oQU73CAXwME/GOpiyFCWv9AX7UZyysMrIZ 3z0p9G9PtcvhuCRhiehjFsdRZV+JvznO/gI00fnCHZWRHsHT0yb4W6AyqLsYEgsM lBMBw1iCG/UZ24luJamM90h0KfVQ48o8mkI3h4AI1vVN658UNJoVsvX4IUqH8BcN 3d1r/w9WKEPOaEVd7F4fR7aCuLipZzIZNsTLoA5DLPAMZFCGYDRC57sydTTqgyL6 QIzfbhbICnv7a7ko+n0s7MvHaI1D/PNi5ckXxdCef/Nw5de0cv7M1PM9fK9fHomz CZhkMJA0qPv0V7yQr6+dIOTZLf19DyHk5uVzQXIITN9bO55XTmGV7ZgYnPCMMtwe 2iQ1l/XzywcaKbOoV44rP8yhIRqTol14XKqIgICQuWyQos+m/qTI/lQ26E2g8SQr cu0HzLf7IWOhom6UWTha =py8H -END PGP SIGNATURE- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Briliant! - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brian Webster Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 3:44 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Or better yet turn off those silly Omni sites and let the old boy wholesale on the new boys network. Old boy doesn't have to maintain sites and bandwidth anymore and the spectrum will get used most efficiently because both operators will not be trying to dance around each other's channel plans. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com www.Broadband-Mapping.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Charles N Wyble Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:33 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Why don't the two WISPS peer with each other? That seems like a much better outcome to me. Coordinate all your gear together, go in together on backhaul etc. Form a strategic partnership. - -- Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com) Systems craftsman for the stars http://www.knownelement.com Mobile: 626 539 4344 Office: 310 929 8793 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJNG7b8AAoJEMvvG/TyLEAtDhsP/30tw5lT6t1l0IcBmmm9bs8e Qf06WQbo9IgGxGlcWOQyL3au/nQmPYuFV8d3JVp71nkGXjVKRKPrGvdG3dBjfjix xrnplevyRZ205ksgYa7dJK1IsUfTTDXVo5Yw/LdrnIG9M0Mn3hSy8QmnCr7H1wZD zy5BLXqyf/QyLEy4oD7CN9EXk553rVf6I0ElmLRmYStK9oIhL79b3HrkN9pBxpZ+ BtEtrEAZzjzcK8bLoY3KmvKqK+V98/oQU73CAXwME/GOpiyFCWv9AX7UZyysMrIZ 3z0p9G9PtcvhuCRhiehjFsdRZV+JvznO/gI00fnCHZWRHsHT0yb4W6AyqLsYEgsM lBMBw1iCG/UZ24luJamM90h0KfVQ48o8mkI3h4AI1vVN658UNJoVsvX4IUqH8BcN 3d1r/w9WKEPOaEVd7F4fR7aCuLipZzIZNsTLoA5DLPAMZFCGYDRC57sydTTqgyL6 QIzfbhbICnv7a7ko+n0s7MvHaI1D/PNi5ckXxdCef/Nw5de0cv7M1PM9fK9fHomz CZhkMJA0qPv0V7yQr6+dIOTZLf19DyHk5uVzQXIITN9bO55XTmGV7ZgYnPCMMtwe 2iQ1l/XzywcaKbOoV44rP8yhIRqTol14XKqIgICQuWyQos+m/qTI/lQ26E2g8SQr cu0HzLf7IWOhom6UWTha =py8H -END PGP SIGNATURE- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.comhttp://www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3346 - Release Date: 12/29/10 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Actually he did do a scan and in a normal situation there would be plenty of room for both however old boy insists on a stick omni as an AP which tells me that he was marginal at best even without new boy. New boy tried to convince old boy to try going to sectors and upgrading things but he's set in his ways. If the noise was intolerable new boy would have issues but there isn't any on his end yet he's changed his frequencies to everything old boy asked him to. They could both co-exist in the same spectrum if old boy would just face the fact that he needs to step up a little with his network engenerring, in my opinion. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Richardson Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn't want to change a thing, he seems to think he's king of the roost since he was first in. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn't be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, What's Up? Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, Chill, don't even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He's within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
And that's what I've been saying. He's done about all that could be expected. I heard from him tonight that old boy called him yet again threatening that if new boy didn't buy him out he would sell to someone else and if he couldn't sell it he'd sue him. For what, I have no idea. It's a technology powered business, everyone, new and old, has to keep evolving. It's what competition is all about, IMO. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Crum Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:47 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Sounds like you've bent over backwards to this point. I'd now send a letter to all your tower owners outlining what you've done to be cooperative, list the applicable CFR references and go tell him to take a flying leap, but that is just me. We had a competitor (actually a customer who thought it looked simple) come in and try to mess with us. He spent so much time trying to strong arm our tower owners, kill our signal, take down our advertising, and bad mouth us, that he neglected the handful of customers he had. He lasted a little less than a year and we ended up with all his customers. This is one of the reasons I'm glad to be on another side of this industry now. Regards, Cameron On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 1:16 PM, Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com wrote: Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn't want to change a thing, he seems to think he's king of the roost since he was first in. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn't be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, What's Up? Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, Chill, don't even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
I know of a similar story. Only twist is old boy is telling their customers it¹s all due to new boy. Can you say slander? -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting Tower Climbing Network Support From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 20:24:54 -0500 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Actually he did do a scan and in a normal situation there would be plenty of room for both however old boy insists on a stick omni as an AP which tells me that he was marginal at best even without new boy. New boy tried to convince old boy to try going to sectors and upgrading things but he¹s set in his ways. If the noise was intolerable new boy would have issues but there isn¹t any on his end yet he¹s changed his frequencies to everything old boy asked him to. They could both co-exist in the same spectrum if old boy would just face the fact that he needs to step up a little with his network engenerring, in my opinion. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Richardson Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn¹t want to change a thing, he seems to think he¹s king of the roost since he was first in. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I¹m throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That¹s the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It¹s reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn¹t be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, ³What¹s Up?² Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, ³Chill, don¹t even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network². New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Yep. That's why I threw this out there. He was leaning towards not even going to the meeting but I think the ideas put forth here is giving him the confidence he needs. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jack Unger Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 3:36 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. I agree with your analysis but unless NB is very knowledgeable and sharp in explaining the law there is a good chance that OB is going to convince or confuse the audience at that meeting that NB is the villain who should be thrown off the grain legs. On 12/29/2010 12:20 PM, Sam Tetherow wrote: Not sure how 'old boy's' (OB) crappy network design is 'new boy's' (NB) problem. Unlicensed spectrum is just that, unlicensed, if he wants protection he should have bought spectrum. As long as NB is following part15 rules and not maliciously trying to interfere with OB's network then OB has to accept interference from NB's network, just as NB has to accept interference from OB's network. It seems that NB has tried to get along, it is about time OB started taking some responsibility for his network. I don't get to tell everyone that bought a wireless router in town to take them back because they interfere with my WISP. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless On 12/29/10 1:16 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn't want to change a thing, he seems to think he's king of the roost since he was first in. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn't be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, What's Up? Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, Chill, don't even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
But the reality is, New boy saw the signals, albeit weak. As a good citizen, he worked around it. However, if old boy has a stick omni 10 miles down range giving out a -90 or worse, what's a brother to think? That's the problem with omnis, they pick up anything and everything from everywhere. How can you effectively deal with that unknown. I have AP's 4, 5, 6 miles apart, sectorized and using the same spectrum. No issues. New boy met with Old boy a few times and showed him what he was using and suggested he go to a more professional setup. No dice. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Richardson Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 3:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. This is different than having to deal with consumer routers. This is a matter of paying attention the environment you are rolling into. Had NB looked at the spectrum, he would have have seen the noise floor and realized he needed to co-ordinate before rolling out, or looked at a different band. Instead, NB threw his gear in the air and is now trying to figure out how to fix it. From a Part-15 rules standpoint you are correct. From a professional standpoint, NB did a crappy job of planning and now wants to throw the responsibility for his poor planning back on the other guy. With that said, had NB contacted OB in advance, and discussed co-locating and OB told him to piss off, then that's a different situation and OB gets what he deserves. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Sam Tetherow Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 12:21 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Not sure how 'old boy's' (OB) crappy network design is 'new boy's' (NB) problem. Unlicensed spectrum is just that, unlicensed, if he wants protection he should have bought spectrum. As long as NB is following part15 rules and not maliciously trying to interfere with OB's network then OB has to accept interference from NB's network, just as NB has to accept interference from OB's network. It seems that NB has tried to get along, it is about time OB started taking some responsibility for his network. I don't get to tell everyone that bought a wireless router in town to take them back because they interfere with my WISP. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless On 12/29/10 1:16 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote: Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn't want to change a thing, he seems to think he's king of the roost since he was first in. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Hell, with so few words that makes the most sense out of all of this. -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Brian Webster Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 6:44 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Or better yet turn off those silly Omni sites and let the old boy wholesale on the new boys network. Old boy doesn't have to maintain sites and bandwidth anymore and the spectrum will get used most efficiently because both operators will not be trying to dance around each other's channel plans. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com www.Broadband-Mapping.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Charles N Wyble Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:33 PM To: wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Why don't the two WISPS peer with each other? That seems like a much better outcome to me. Coordinate all your gear together, go in together on backhaul etc. Form a strategic partnership. - -- Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com) Systems craftsman for the stars http://www.knownelement.com Mobile: 626 539 4344 Office: 310 929 8793 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJNG7b8AAoJEMvvG/TyLEAtDhsP/30tw5lT6t1l0IcBmmm9bs8e Qf06WQbo9IgGxGlcWOQyL3au/nQmPYuFV8d3JVp71nkGXjVKRKPrGvdG3dBjfjix xrnplevyRZ205ksgYa7dJK1IsUfTTDXVo5Yw/LdrnIG9M0Mn3hSy8QmnCr7H1wZD zy5BLXqyf/QyLEy4oD7CN9EXk553rVf6I0ElmLRmYStK9oIhL79b3HrkN9pBxpZ+ BtEtrEAZzjzcK8bLoY3KmvKqK+V98/oQU73CAXwME/GOpiyFCWv9AX7UZyysMrIZ 3z0p9G9PtcvhuCRhiehjFsdRZV+JvznO/gI00fnCHZWRHsHT0yb4W6AyqLsYEgsM lBMBw1iCG/UZ24luJamM90h0KfVQ48o8mkI3h4AI1vVN658UNJoVsvX4IUqH8BcN 3d1r/w9WKEPOaEVd7F4fR7aCuLipZzIZNsTLoA5DLPAMZFCGYDRC57sydTTqgyL6 QIzfbhbICnv7a7ko+n0s7MvHaI1D/PNi5ckXxdCef/Nw5de0cv7M1PM9fK9fHomz CZhkMJA0qPv0V7yQr6+dIOTZLf19DyHk5uVzQXIITN9bO55XTmGV7ZgYnPCMMtwe 2iQ1l/XzywcaKbOoV44rP8yhIRqTol14XKqIgICQuWyQos+m/qTI/lQ26E2g8SQr cu0HzLf7IWOhom6UWTha =py8H -END PGP SIGNATURE- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Yeah, I had that once a few years ago. Took one letter from my lawyer and it put an end to that. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Justin Wilson Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 8:32 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. I know of a similar story. Only twist is old boy is telling their customers it's all due to new boy. Can you say slander? -- Justin Wilson j...@mtin.net Aol Yahoo IM: j2sw http://www.mtin.net/blog - xISP News http://www.twitter.com/j2sw - Follow me on Twitter Wisp Consulting - Tower Climbing - Network Support _ From: Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Wed, 29 Dec 2010 20:24:54 -0500 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Actually he did do a scan and in a normal situation there would be plenty of room for both however old boy insists on a stick omni as an AP which tells me that he was marginal at best even without new boy. New boy tried to convince old boy to try going to sectors and upgrading things but he's set in his ways. If the noise was intolerable new boy would have issues but there isn't any on his end yet he's changed his frequencies to everything old boy asked him to. They could both co-exist in the same spectrum if old boy would just face the fact that he needs to step up a little with his network engenerring, in my opinion. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jerry Richardson Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Here is my take: Old boy was there first New boy rolls in on a sweet deal for tower owner Old boy's network is hosed due to interference from new boy Sound like new boy is the problem regardless of how old boy's network is built (it worked before new boy came along). I'm guessing no spectrum analysis was done in advance or new boy would have seen it was a no go. New boy needs to look at using a different band or buy out old boy. I would HIGHLY recommend new boy bail on 2.4, and use 5.8 UBNT Rockets with Sectors. He will be able to provide a higher class of service and be installing what he should have installed in the first place. New boy should include in the tower agreement language for exclusivity on 3.65, 5.2, 5.4, and whatever unused channels there are on 5.8. - Jerry From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Robert West Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:01 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Problem is old boy doesn't want to change a thing, he seems to think he's king of the roost since he was first in. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Hogg Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:22 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Have everyone use Canopy, sync the aps together, and problems go away. Or wait for UBNT AirSync. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:55 AM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: I'm throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That's the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It's reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn't be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Well I was thinking an amp was involved to compensate... On Dec 29, 2010 9:15 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: That's what I thought too especially since he's probably using a 12dbi omni or worse. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Coax up the tower? There has to be some serious loss there. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: Old boy is using old Bullet2 with a stick omni. Has the antenna on top of the tower or leg with coax running all the way down to the ground where he has the Bullet. No sectors anywhere. New boy is outfitted with a modern and professional setup. 3 UBNT MIMO sectors per AP with Rocket2M. Backhauls are Bullet5M on a 29dbi Pacific Wireless grid. All links are at 10MHz channel width including the backhauls. We've discussed finding a way to turn off one chain of the rockets, I really wish UBNT had thought about that from the get go on these, seems to be a no brainer, anyhow we talked about that and honestly that would be a good idea but from all I've been hearing, I really don't think this is the entire issue old boy is having. With all the phone calls and noise he's been making, I'm thinking a lot of it comes from him just being pissed over having someone in his territory and doing it better than him. I would put money on the idea that even if new boy was able to turn off one chain of his rockets, old boy would still complain because he has been blaming new boy for every issue he can think of and word has it that the quality of his network sucked before any of this happened. And again, New Boy planned around the existing RF environment and it shouldn't have been an issue if not for his low power omnis. The other side should be able to admit that he needs to upgrade a bit in order to meet half way, I think. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Robert, Still missing some relevent detail... New WISP uses 2.4 sectors. Is the Old WISP boy also using 2.4G sectors? As well, is the Rocket gear Single Pol or MIMO dual pol gear? Expecially, is the new provider's 5.8G PTP and Rocket Sectors MIMO? Legally- Part15 means everyone must deploy assuming the risk that there could be interference. There are two potential outcomes. 1) Coordination and cooperation or 2) survival of the fittest. This might also come down to who has the best contract with the grain towers. Whether anyone gained solid non-interference clauses or spectrum exclusivity clauses in their contracts, versus hand shake deals. I dont agree with the assessment that the problem is the Old Boy's bad design or unwillingness to change. (see below for justification) The fact is, he was there first and had the flexibility to design optimally for his need, and there was really no need for him to design for the new providers need, becaue the new provider did not exist at that time. At the end oif the day, he has pre-existing custoemrs that need him and that he needs revenue from, and he isn;t going to bail on that pre-existing money tree, that has been in motion for years. He will fight harder than the new provider because, he has more at stake to protect, even though it may be on a smaller scale. Both parties are equally obligated to build their networks as interference resilent as possible. But there are multiple dissimilar approaches to accomplishing that that is jsut as good as another. So who's to say what is ultimately the best practice. Its tough for a company who has built a network on a single pol and 20Mhz design, and change to a dual pol 10Mhz design. Whats less efficient? Dual Omnis each single pol, or two sectors with dual pol? Omnis are not always bad, IF there is adequate physical obstruction isolation between grain towers, and using polarity as a mechanism of interference isolation also helps. If some else is operating on 20Mhz, a new provider on 10Mhz may not help, because it still steps on half the 20Mhz channel. I'd argue that the best way to coexist is to get rid of the Dual Pol on the New provider's Mimo rockets, IF THEY are using Dual POl MIMO. If Old BOy is using Omnis everywhere he likely is using Verticle pol everywhere. So, New WISP should physically CAP the verticle pol on their Rocket radios, and leave Chain Zero on Horizontal polarity only. Then move new WISP back to 20Mhz if you need to to regain the capacity. Problem solved. But if you rely on polarity as the mechanism
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Dunno. Could be. I have this vision in my head of a Linksys router flashed with DD-WRT taking that setup down as well.. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Well I was thinking an amp was involved to compensate... On Dec 29, 2010 9:15 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: That's what I thought too especially since he's probably using a 12dbi omni or worse. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Coax up the tower? There has to be some serious loss there. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: Old boy is using old Bullet2 with a stick omni. Has the antenna on top of the tower or leg with coax running all the way down to the ground where he has the Bullet. No sectors anywhere. New boy is outfitted with a modern and professional setup. 3 UBNT MIMO sectors per AP with Rocket2M. Backhauls are Bullet5M on a 29dbi Pacific Wireless grid. All links are at 10MHz channel width including the backhauls. We've discussed finding a way to turn off one chain of the rockets, I really wish UBNT had thought about that from the get go on these, seems to be a no brainer, anyhow we talked about that and honestly that would be a good idea but from all I've been hearing, I really don't think this is the entire issue old boy is having. With all the phone calls and noise he's been making, I'm thinking a lot of it comes from him just being pissed over having someone in his territory and doing it better than him. I would put money on the idea that even if new boy was able to turn off one chain of his rockets, old boy would still complain because he has been blaming new boy for every issue he can think of and word has it that the quality of his network sucked before any of this happened. And again, New Boy planned around the existing RF environment and it shouldn't have been an issue if not for his low power omnis. The other side should be able to admit that he needs to upgrade a bit in order to meet half way, I think. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Robert, Still missing some relevent detail... New WISP uses 2.4 sectors. Is the Old WISP boy also using 2.4G sectors? As well, is the Rocket gear Single Pol or MIMO dual pol gear? Expecially, is the new provider's 5.8G PTP and Rocket Sectors MIMO? Legally- Part15 means everyone must deploy assuming the risk that there could be interference. There are two potential outcomes. 1) Coordination and cooperation or 2) survival of the fittest. This might also come down to who has the best contract with the grain towers. Whether anyone gained solid non-interference clauses or spectrum exclusivity clauses in their contracts, versus hand shake deals. I dont agree with the assessment that the problem is the Old Boy's bad design or unwillingness to change. (see below for justification) The fact is, he was there first and had the flexibility to design optimally for his need, and there was really no need for him to design for the new providers need, becaue the new provider did not exist at that time. At the end oif the day, he has pre-existing custoemrs that need him and that he needs revenue from, and he isn;t going to bail on that pre-existing money tree, that has been in motion for years. He will fight harder than the new provider because, he has more at stake to protect, even though it may be on a smaller scale. Both parties are equally obligated to build their networks as interference resilent as possible. But there are multiple dissimilar approaches to accomplishing that that is jsut as good as another. So who's to say what is ultimately the best practice. Its tough for a company who has built a network on a single pol and 20Mhz design, and change to a dual pol 10Mhz design. Whats less efficient? Dual Omnis each single pol, or two sectors with dual pol? Omnis are not always bad, IF there is adequate physical obstruction isolation between grain towers, and using polarity as a mechanism of interference isolation also helps. If some else is operating on 20Mhz, a new provider on 10Mhz may not help, because it still steps on half the 20Mhz channel. I'd argue that the best way to coexist is to get rid of the Dual Pol
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
-exist. Omnis are plusses, because I know their is a financial incenticve for them to select Verticle pol, so when I use sectors it makes it much easier for me to steer around them. And I'm not greedy. I let them have their 50 subs, closest to their towers, and wouldn't ever think about marketing their backdoor step.. I'd rather focus on the 200 customers in the other direction that I'm closer to. There is enough market to go around. All new undeployed markets are fair game to who get their first. So summary of recommendation 1) Check contractual protections in both WISP's grain tower contracts. 2) Try each picking a unique exclusive polarity for their radios. 3) ONly Deploy AP and BAckhaul radios that have built-in spectrum analyzers. (Ubiquiti-M or Trango Tlink). If using Ubiquiti and MIMO, for Rockets cap off chain 1 antenna to disable, or using Bullets that are single pol MIMO. 4) Use 5.2/4 for backhauls everywhere possible. 5) Where non-interference cant be acheived at 2.4G, use 3.65 and 900Mhz. Also another approach IF coexistance can be acheived. Then you are back at aquisition discussion. How can aquisition be avoided. Two ways... 1) AP sharing or 2) Customer swapping. 1- Come to the realizing that two tower cant exist next to each other in the same market. Agree to share your APs with him, and and vice versa, at an equal bi-direction monitary rate to each other. Some APs will get taken down. You will control some towers and he'll control others. But neither will loose control of their customer. 2- All your customers next to his tower you sell to him, and his customers next to you he sells to you. Do it on a 1 to 1 trade. And stop tradding when there is no more interference. Pay the same rate bi-directionally, so no dolalrs have to change hands. Then its just a few phone calls... Hey... let me introduce you to your new provider, you'll get bills from him now. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com *To:* 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:55 AM *Subject:* [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. I’m throwing this out there for another WISP to see if anyone has any experience with something like this or any ideas. Within the past year this operator was asked by a grain operator to bring broadband to all of their grain legs. The operator had the idea of, instead of charging the grain dealer for the install, to offer the broadband for free in exchange for using the legs for access points and sell the service to local customers. The grain dealer agreed, obviously, so he built out a fairly good sized network. For equipment he is using all Ubiquiti radios and CPE units and with Pac grids and Bullets for his back haul and Rockets with sectors at the APs. Network has been working perfectly. That’s the setup. Now for the trouble. There was and still is an existing WISP in the area. 60 customers or so. (Grain dealer is associated with OLD wisp in a roundabout way but chose not to use him for whatever reason) It’s reported that boy is in love with Bullets and OMNI antennas on all of his APs. For CPEs he goes for large grids and Bullets, I believe. He also pushes it as far as he can go, 5 miles or more on those OMNI APs. New operator is using 5.8 for Back Haul, 2.4 for CPE. Old WISP calls new WISP almost immediately. Interference taking down his network. New wisp changes channels to those suggested by old wisp. Calls again, interference. New wisp changes channels again. Another phone call, he changes yet again. Then drops down to 10MHz channels to give more room. Still the phone calls. For a time it was every evening he would have to deal with old wisp and still he wouldn’t be happy. Old wisp then starts calling the owners of the grain legs raising hell and bad mouthing new wisp. Leg owner calls new wisp, “What’s Up?” Old wisp then wants to sell his network to new wisp for fantasy cash. I tell new wisp, “Chill, don’t even think of buying that idiot and his duct tape network”. New wisp then buys a 3.65 license but we all know how long that sucker takes and the limitations it has with number of channels and the $$ premium per unit. New wisp has been very nice to all parties and has done, from what I see, about all he can do. He’s within all power regulations and has bent over backwards to every request put to him by this guy. (One of the last comments from old WISP was that he would get a sector and, in so many words, blast him and take down his network) Now the latest. Old wisp has contacted the leg owners and has put together a meeting between old wisp, all of new wisps grain leg owners, new wisp and two outside parties, one of which is related to old wisp boy. New Wisp is at a loss to what more can be accomplished other
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Thats optimal if you can do it. Many times you have personality conflicts. I'm second owner here. The previous owner did not get along at all with the competition. I changed all that and in their demise they gave me first right of refusals on some of their towers. On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Charles N Wyble char...@knownelement.comwrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Why don't the two WISPS peer with each other? That seems like a much better outcome to me. Coordinate all your gear together, go in together on backhaul etc. Form a strategic partnership. - -- Charles N Wyble (char...@knownelement.com) Systems craftsman for the stars http://www.knownelement.com Mobile: 626 539 4344 Office: 310 929 8793 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJNG7b8AAoJEMvvG/TyLEAtDhsP/30tw5lT6t1l0IcBmmm9bs8e Qf06WQbo9IgGxGlcWOQyL3au/nQmPYuFV8d3JVp71nkGXjVKRKPrGvdG3dBjfjix xrnplevyRZ205ksgYa7dJK1IsUfTTDXVo5Yw/LdrnIG9M0Mn3hSy8QmnCr7H1wZD zy5BLXqyf/QyLEy4oD7CN9EXk553rVf6I0ElmLRmYStK9oIhL79b3HrkN9pBxpZ+ BtEtrEAZzjzcK8bLoY3KmvKqK+V98/oQU73CAXwME/GOpiyFCWv9AX7UZyysMrIZ 3z0p9G9PtcvhuCRhiehjFsdRZV+JvznO/gI00fnCHZWRHsHT0yb4W6AyqLsYEgsM lBMBw1iCG/UZ24luJamM90h0KfVQ48o8mkI3h4AI1vVN658UNJoVsvX4IUqH8BcN 3d1r/w9WKEPOaEVd7F4fR7aCuLipZzIZNsTLoA5DLPAMZFCGYDRC57sydTTqgyL6 QIzfbhbICnv7a7ko+n0s7MvHaI1D/PNi5ckXxdCef/Nw5de0cv7M1PM9fK9fHomz CZhkMJA0qPv0V7yQr6+dIOTZLf19DyHk5uVzQXIITN9bO55XTmGV7ZgYnPCMMtwe 2iQ1l/XzywcaKbOoV44rP8yhIRqTol14XKqIgICQuWyQos+m/qTI/lQ26E2g8SQr cu0HzLf7IWOhom6UWTha =py8H -END PGP SIGNATURE- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
I'll use that line in the introduction for the book! On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 6:26 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: I dont have the time either, I'm just lazy. And its easier to write, than face the reality that I should really be working :-) After News years, I'll probably disappear for a while, work is piling up. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - *From:* Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com *To:* WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:19 PM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Tom: I'm always impressed with the time you take in writing the responses you do. I wish I had that kind of time, I barely have enough time to read them. Regards, Chuck On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 5:01 PM, Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.netwrote: Robert, Still missing some relevent detail... New WISP uses 2.4 sectors. Is the Old WISP boy also using 2.4G sectors? As well, is the Rocket gear Single Pol or MIMO dual pol gear? Expecially, is the new provider's 5.8G PTP and Rocket Sectors MIMO? Legally- Part15 means everyone must deploy assuming the risk that there could be interference. There are two potential outcomes. 1) Coordination and cooperation or 2) survival of the fittest. This might also come down to who has the best contract with the grain towers. Whether anyone gained solid non-interference clauses or spectrum exclusivity clauses in their contracts, versus hand shake deals. I dont agree with the assessment that the problem is the Old Boy's bad design or unwillingness to change. (see below for justification) The fact is, he was there first and had the flexibility to design optimally for his need, and there was really no need for him to design for the new providers need, becaue the new provider did not exist at that time. At the end oif the day, he has pre-existing custoemrs that need him and that he needs revenue from, and he isn;t going to bail on that pre-existing money tree, that has been in motion for years. He will fight harder than the new provider because, he has more at stake to protect, even though it may be on a smaller scale. Both parties are equally obligated to build their networks as interference resilent as possible. But there are multiple dissimilar approaches to accomplishing that that is jsut as good as another. So who's to say what is ultimately the best practice. Its tough for a company who has built a network on a single pol and 20Mhz design, and change to a dual pol 10Mhz design. Whats less efficient? Dual Omnis each single pol, or two sectors with dual pol? Omnis are not always bad, IF there is adequate physical obstruction isolation between grain towers, and using polarity as a mechanism of interference isolation also helps. If some else is operating on 20Mhz, a new provider on 10Mhz may not help, because it still steps on half the 20Mhz channel. I'd argue that the best way to coexist is to get rid of the Dual Pol on the New provider's Mimo rockets, IF THEY are using Dual POl MIMO. If Old BOy is using Omnis everywhere he likely is using Verticle pol everywhere. So, New WISP should physically CAP the verticle pol on their Rocket radios, and leave Chain Zero on Horizontal polarity only. Then move new WISP back to 20Mhz if you need to to regain the capacity. Problem solved. But if you rely on polarity as the mechanism of isolation, it simplifies everything, so much easier than channel coordination. Remember that Polarity isolation often has much better isolation than adjacent channel isolation. With OFDM you really need 20db of SNR min, and polarity isolation will get you that. Its hard to get that without polarity isolation. Bottom line is, if you both choose a different polarity, and stick to it, you wont interfere with each other, just with yourself. But, self-interference is much easier to isolate, when you know everything about your own network, and can make the best choices and trade off for your network. And you can make those changes without answering or coordinating with someone else. Thats the benefit of relying on Pol isolation. If old boy is using Omni, and new WISP is using sectors, its a perfect situation for old boy to take Verticle and New WISP to take Horizontal. Dont get me wrong, I love Ubiquiti MIMO when I can use it, but MIMO has a major flaw, and that is co-existing with others is much more difficult, expecially if they are using 20Mhz gear. I hate to say it, but ethically, I'd side with Old WISP boy. Comming in new with MIMO gear would surely going to cause interference to pre-existing deployments, and the MIMO would restrict your flexibility to resolve. If a new provider came in with UNiquiti standard (non MIMO model), Id call it even more irresponsbile. Bulilt-in spectrum analyzers are NEEDED in today's day and age to adeqautely co-exist
Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy.
Well, I have one tower (130' sign post) that is unclimable and because of its location you cant get a bucket truck to it half the year. Rather than risk an extended outage due to radios dying at the top, I used LMR-600 with high powered Bullets at the bottom, no amps. Works surprisingly well! On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.comwrote: Well I was thinking an amp was involved to compensate... On Dec 29, 2010 9:15 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: That's what I thought too especially since he's probably using a 12dbi omni or worse. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 9:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Coax up the tower? There has to be some serious loss there. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 9:02 PM, Robert West robert.w...@just-micro.com wrote: Old boy is using old Bullet2 with a stick omni. Has the antenna on top of the tower or leg with coax running all the way down to the ground where he has the Bullet. No sectors anywhere. New boy is outfitted with a modern and professional setup. 3 UBNT MIMO sectors per AP with Rocket2M. Backhauls are Bullet5M on a 29dbi Pacific Wireless grid. All links are at 10MHz channel width including the backhauls. We've discussed finding a way to turn off one chain of the rockets, I really wish UBNT had thought about that from the get go on these, seems to be a no brainer, anyhow we talked about that and honestly that would be a good idea but from all I've been hearing, I really don't think this is the entire issue old boy is having. With all the phone calls and noise he's been making, I'm thinking a lot of it comes from him just being pissed over having someone in his territory and doing it better than him. I would put money on the idea that even if new boy was able to turn off one chain of his rockets, old boy would still complain because he has been blaming new boy for every issue he can think of and word has it that the quality of his network sucked before any of this happened. And again, New Boy planned around the existing RF environment and it shouldn't have been an issue if not for his low power omnis. The other side should be able to admit that he needs to upgrade a bit in order to meet half way, I think. From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 5:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Can't make a competitor happy. Robert, Still missing some relevent detail... New WISP uses 2.4 sectors. Is the Old WISP boy also using 2.4G sectors? As well, is the Rocket gear Single Pol or MIMO dual pol gear? Expecially, is the new provider's 5.8G PTP and Rocket Sectors MIMO? Legally- Part15 means everyone must deploy assuming the risk that there could be interference. There are two potential outcomes. 1) Coordination and cooperation or 2) survival of the fittest. This might also come down to who has the best contract with the grain towers. Whether anyone gained solid non-interference clauses or spectrum exclusivity clauses in their contracts, versus hand shake deals. I dont agree with the assessment that the problem is the Old Boy's bad design or unwillingness to change. (see below for justification) The fact is, he was there first and had the flexibility to design optimally for his need, and there was really no need for him to design for the new providers need, becaue the new provider did not exist at that time. At the end oif the day, he has pre-existing custoemrs that need him and that he needs revenue from, and he isn;t going to bail on that pre-existing money tree, that has been in motion for years. He will fight harder than the new provider because, he has more at stake to protect, even though it may be on a smaller scale. Both parties are equally obligated to build their networks as interference resilent as possible. But there are multiple dissimilar approaches to accomplishing that that is jsut as good as another. So who's to say what is ultimately the best practice. Its tough for a company who has built a network on a single pol and 20Mhz design, and change to a dual pol 10Mhz design. Whats less efficient? Dual Omnis each single pol, or two sectors with dual pol? Omnis are not always bad, IF there is adequate physical obstruction isolation between grain towers, and using polarity as a mechanism of interference isolation also helps. If some else is operating on 20Mhz, a new provider on 10Mhz may not help, because
