Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-09 Thread Mike Hammett
I think I learned in high school business law class that payment of a bill 
constitutes agreement with a contract.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:47 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 Right on TOS and AUP but not the contract. If I understand contractual
 agreements correctly, all terms must be clear to both parties. So,
 just cause I pay a bill doesnt mean I understand my full obligations
 such as length of terms, etc. I suspect that presenting the actual
 contract electronically when the customer signs up provides full
 disclosure but I'd love to hear from anyone that is using it now an
 dif their lawyer blessed the proceedure.
 -RickG

 On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:57 PM, D. Ryan Spottrsp...@cspott.com wrote:
 I think in most states paying the bill obligates you to the terms of
 service/contract.

 ryan

 Charles Wyble wrote:
 Ah. Gotcha.

 Thanks for clarifying.

 RickG wrote:

 Having an AUP is fine but it doesnt spell out the terms of a specific
 obligation between you  the end user. The big carriers obligate you
 to two year contracts when you agree online so I'm assuming we can do
 the same.
 -RickG


 On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Charles Wyblechar...@thewybles.com 
 wrote:

 The big carriers don't require a signature on a contract. They also
 don't do (free/near free) installs either. I don't know if there is a
 signed contract if you pay for an install.

 Yes I realize this is a very important differentiator that we can
 provide, however I don't feel a signed contract is necessary. An AUP 
 is
 an excellent idea as a general rule, however if they are transiting 
 bits
 on your network, you have the right and obligation to defend that
 network. If you don't, you risk other operators dropping traffic from
 your IP rnage /AS.


 Your free to enforce your AUP with impunity. Failure to do so is the
 sole reason that bits of evil reach our border routers. A few simple
 route filters, and spam/botnets would be stopped. Subscribe to the 
 Don't
 Route Or Peer List from Spamhaus
 (http://www.spamhaus.org/drop/index.lasso), and monitor outbound 
 traffic.


 *sighs*



 Martha Huizenga wrote:

 Exactly, we send the contract with the install and then get it back 
 when
 the install is done. Works fine.

 Jason Hensley wrote:

 Wow. Seems like a waste of time and resources. If I mailed contracts 
 like
 that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they would 
 never
 send the contract back. Send a contract with the installer, get them 
 to
 sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one 
 back, done
 deal. If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial confirmation, 
 then
 get an actual signature at install.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] 
 On
 Behalf Of Scott Reed
 Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 We currently use a two-year contract for customers. Right now we 
 gather
 the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer and 
 wait
 for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule an
 installation. We would like to reduce the time from initial contact 
 to
 installation. One option we are looking at is electronic signature 
 on
 the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but 
 thought it
 would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you 
 use?
 What is good about them? What is not so good?



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-09 Thread RickG
For how long? 1 year or for life?

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote:
 I think I learned in high school business law class that payment of a bill
 constitutes agreement with a contract.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
 Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:47 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 Right on TOS and AUP but not the contract. If I understand contractual
 agreements correctly, all terms must be clear to both parties. So,
 just cause I pay a bill doesnt mean I understand my full obligations
 such as length of terms, etc. I suspect that presenting the actual
 contract electronically when the customer signs up provides full
 disclosure but I'd love to hear from anyone that is using it now an
 dif their lawyer blessed the proceedure.
 -RickG

 On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:57 PM, D. Ryan Spottrsp...@cspott.com wrote:
 I think in most states paying the bill obligates you to the terms of
 service/contract.

 ryan

 Charles Wyble wrote:
 Ah. Gotcha.

 Thanks for clarifying.

 RickG wrote:

 Having an AUP is fine but it doesnt spell out the terms of a specific
 obligation between you  the end user. The big carriers obligate you
 to two year contracts when you agree online so I'm assuming we can do
 the same.
 -RickG


 On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Charles Wyblechar...@thewybles.com
 wrote:

 The big carriers don't require a signature on a contract. They also
 don't do (free/near free) installs either. I don't know if there is a
 signed contract if you pay for an install.

 Yes I realize this is a very important differentiator that we can
 provide, however I don't feel a signed contract is necessary. An AUP
 is
 an excellent idea as a general rule, however if they are transiting
 bits
 on your network, you have the right and obligation to defend that
 network. If you don't, you risk other operators dropping traffic from
 your IP rnage /AS.


 Your free to enforce your AUP with impunity. Failure to do so is the
 sole reason that bits of evil reach our border routers. A few simple
 route filters, and spam/botnets would be stopped. Subscribe to the
 Don't
 Route Or Peer List from Spamhaus
 (http://www.spamhaus.org/drop/index.lasso), and monitor outbound
 traffic.


 *sighs*



 Martha Huizenga wrote:

 Exactly, we send the contract with the install and then get it back
 when
 the install is done. Works fine.

 Jason Hensley wrote:

 Wow. Seems like a waste of time and resources. If I mailed contracts
 like
 that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they would
 never
 send the contract back. Send a contract with the installer, get them
 to
 sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one
 back, done
 deal. If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial confirmation,
 then
 get an actual signature at install.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Scott Reed
 Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 We currently use a two-year contract for customers. Right now we
 gather
 the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer and
 wait
 for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule an
 installation. We would like to reduce the time from initial contact
 to
 installation. One option we are looking at is electronic signature
 on
 the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but
 thought it
 would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you
 use?
 What is good about them? What is not so good?



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-09 Thread Josh Luthman
Our contract has the number of months and the start date at the top.

I would imagine as long as you're paying, you're in contract and must abide
by the terms and conditions.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
improbable, must be the truth.
--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:15 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 For how long? 1 year or for life?

 On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net
 wrote:
  I think I learned in high school business law class that payment of a
 bill
  constitutes agreement with a contract.
 
 
  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
  http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
  --
  From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
  Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:47 PM
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures
 
  Right on TOS and AUP but not the contract. If I understand contractual
  agreements correctly, all terms must be clear to both parties. So,
  just cause I pay a bill doesnt mean I understand my full obligations
  such as length of terms, etc. I suspect that presenting the actual
  contract electronically when the customer signs up provides full
  disclosure but I'd love to hear from anyone that is using it now an
  dif their lawyer blessed the proceedure.
  -RickG
 
  On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:57 PM, D. Ryan Spottrsp...@cspott.com wrote:
  I think in most states paying the bill obligates you to the terms of
  service/contract.
 
  ryan
 
  Charles Wyble wrote:
  Ah. Gotcha.
 
  Thanks for clarifying.
 
  RickG wrote:
 
  Having an AUP is fine but it doesnt spell out the terms of a specific
  obligation between you  the end user. The big carriers obligate you
  to two year contracts when you agree online so I'm assuming we can do
  the same.
  -RickG
 
 
  On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Charles Wyblechar...@thewybles.com
 
  wrote:
 
  The big carriers don't require a signature on a contract. They also
  don't do (free/near free) installs either. I don't know if there is
 a
  signed contract if you pay for an install.
 
  Yes I realize this is a very important differentiator that we can
  provide, however I don't feel a signed contract is necessary. An AUP
  is
  an excellent idea as a general rule, however if they are transiting
  bits
  on your network, you have the right and obligation to defend that
  network. If you don't, you risk other operators dropping traffic
 from
  your IP rnage /AS.
 
 
  Your free to enforce your AUP with impunity. Failure to do so is the
  sole reason that bits of evil reach our border routers. A few
 simple
  route filters, and spam/botnets would be stopped. Subscribe to the
  Don't
  Route Or Peer List from Spamhaus
  (http://www.spamhaus.org/drop/index.lasso), and monitor outbound
  traffic.
 
 
  *sighs*
 
 
 
  Martha Huizenga wrote:
 
  Exactly, we send the contract with the install and then get it back
  when
  the install is done. Works fine.
 
  Jason Hensley wrote:
 
  Wow. Seems like a waste of time and resources. If I mailed
 contracts
  like
  that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they
 would
  never
  send the contract back. Send a contract with the installer, get
 them
  to
  sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one
  back, done
  deal. If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial
 confirmation,
  then
  get an actual signature at install.
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:
 wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
  On
  Behalf Of Scott Reed
  Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures
 
  We currently use a two-year contract for customers. Right now we
  gather
  the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer
 and
  wait
  for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule
 an
  installation. We would like to reduce the time from initial
 contact
  to
  installation. One option we are looking at is electronic
 signature
  on
  the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but
  thought it
  would be good to get some other input.
  If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
  If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you
  use?
  What is good about them? What is not so good?
 
 
 
 
 
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless

Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-09 Thread RickG
Thats fine in paper form. How about electronic? (i.e website signup). -RickG

On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Josh
Luthmanj...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote:
 Our contract has the number of months and the start date at the top.

 I would imagine as long as you're paying, you're in contract and must abide
 by the terms and conditions.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:15 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 For how long? 1 year or for life?

 On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net
 wrote:
  I think I learned in high school business law class that payment of a
 bill
  constitutes agreement with a contract.
 
 
  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
  http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
  --
  From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
  Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:47 PM
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures
 
  Right on TOS and AUP but not the contract. If I understand contractual
  agreements correctly, all terms must be clear to both parties. So,
  just cause I pay a bill doesnt mean I understand my full obligations
  such as length of terms, etc. I suspect that presenting the actual
  contract electronically when the customer signs up provides full
  disclosure but I'd love to hear from anyone that is using it now an
  dif their lawyer blessed the proceedure.
  -RickG
 
  On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:57 PM, D. Ryan Spottrsp...@cspott.com wrote:
  I think in most states paying the bill obligates you to the terms of
  service/contract.
 
  ryan
 
  Charles Wyble wrote:
  Ah. Gotcha.
 
  Thanks for clarifying.
 
  RickG wrote:
 
  Having an AUP is fine but it doesnt spell out the terms of a specific
  obligation between you  the end user. The big carriers obligate you
  to two year contracts when you agree online so I'm assuming we can do
  the same.
  -RickG
 
 
  On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Charles Wyblechar...@thewybles.com
 
  wrote:
 
  The big carriers don't require a signature on a contract. They also
  don't do (free/near free) installs either. I don't know if there is
 a
  signed contract if you pay for an install.
 
  Yes I realize this is a very important differentiator that we can
  provide, however I don't feel a signed contract is necessary. An AUP
  is
  an excellent idea as a general rule, however if they are transiting
  bits
  on your network, you have the right and obligation to defend that
  network. If you don't, you risk other operators dropping traffic
 from
  your IP rnage /AS.
 
 
  Your free to enforce your AUP with impunity. Failure to do so is the
  sole reason that bits of evil reach our border routers. A few
 simple
  route filters, and spam/botnets would be stopped. Subscribe to the
  Don't
  Route Or Peer List from Spamhaus
  (http://www.spamhaus.org/drop/index.lasso), and monitor outbound
  traffic.
 
 
  *sighs*
 
 
 
  Martha Huizenga wrote:
 
  Exactly, we send the contract with the install and then get it back
  when
  the install is done. Works fine.
 
  Jason Hensley wrote:
 
  Wow. Seems like a waste of time and resources. If I mailed
 contracts
  like
  that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they
 would
  never
  send the contract back. Send a contract with the installer, get
 them
  to
  sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one
  back, done
  deal. If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial
 confirmation,
  then
  get an actual signature at install.
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:
 wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
  On
  Behalf Of Scott Reed
  Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures
 
  We currently use a two-year contract for customers. Right now we
  gather
  the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer
 and
  wait
  for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule
 an
  installation. We would like to reduce the time from initial
 contact
  to
  installation. One option we are looking at is electronic
 signature
  on
  the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but
  thought it
  would be good to get some other input.
  If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
  If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you
  use?
  What is good about them? What is not so good?
 
 
 
 
 
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http

Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-09 Thread Josh Luthman
Anything that states by signing up here you have to agree to this 24
month contract or whatever.

Kind of like those sites that say click agree if you're 18 or older -
that keeps them from legal trouble.

On 6/9/09, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:
 Thats fine in paper form. How about electronic? (i.e website signup). -RickG

 On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:19 PM, Josh
 Luthmanj...@imaginenetworksllc.com wrote:
 Our contract has the number of months and the start date at the top.

 I would imagine as long as you're paying, you're in contract and must
 abide
 by the terms and conditions.

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:15 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote:

 For how long? 1 year or for life?

 On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net
 wrote:
  I think I learned in high school business law class that payment of a
 bill
  constitutes agreement with a contract.
 
 
  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
  http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
  --
  From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
  Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:47 PM
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures
 
  Right on TOS and AUP but not the contract. If I understand contractual
  agreements correctly, all terms must be clear to both parties. So,
  just cause I pay a bill doesnt mean I understand my full obligations
  such as length of terms, etc. I suspect that presenting the actual
  contract electronically when the customer signs up provides full
  disclosure but I'd love to hear from anyone that is using it now an
  dif their lawyer blessed the proceedure.
  -RickG
 
  On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:57 PM, D. Ryan Spottrsp...@cspott.com
  wrote:
  I think in most states paying the bill obligates you to the terms of
  service/contract.
 
  ryan
 
  Charles Wyble wrote:
  Ah. Gotcha.
 
  Thanks for clarifying.
 
  RickG wrote:
 
  Having an AUP is fine but it doesnt spell out the terms of a
  specific
  obligation between you  the end user. The big carriers obligate
  you
  to two year contracts when you agree online so I'm assuming we can
  do
  the same.
  -RickG
 
 
  On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Charles
  Wyblechar...@thewybles.com
 
  wrote:
 
  The big carriers don't require a signature on a contract. They
  also
  don't do (free/near free) installs either. I don't know if there
  is
 a
  signed contract if you pay for an install.
 
  Yes I realize this is a very important differentiator that we can
  provide, however I don't feel a signed contract is necessary. An
  AUP
  is
  an excellent idea as a general rule, however if they are
  transiting
  bits
  on your network, you have the right and obligation to defend that
  network. If you don't, you risk other operators dropping traffic
 from
  your IP rnage /AS.
 
 
  Your free to enforce your AUP with impunity. Failure to do so is
  the
  sole reason that bits of evil reach our border routers. A few
 simple
  route filters, and spam/botnets would be stopped. Subscribe to the
  Don't
  Route Or Peer List from Spamhaus
  (http://www.spamhaus.org/drop/index.lasso), and monitor outbound
  traffic.
 
 
  *sighs*
 
 
 
  Martha Huizenga wrote:
 
  Exactly, we send the contract with the install and then get it
  back
  when
  the install is done. Works fine.
 
  Jason Hensley wrote:
 
  Wow. Seems like a waste of time and resources. If I mailed
 contracts
  like
  that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they
 would
  never
  send the contract back. Send a contract with the installer, get
 them
  to
  sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring
  one
  back, done
  deal. If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial
 confirmation,
  then
  get an actual signature at install.
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:
 wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
  On
  Behalf Of Scott Reed
  Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures
 
  We currently use a two-year contract for customers. Right now we
  gather
  the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer
 and
  wait
  for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule
 an
  installation. We would like to reduce the time from initial
 contact
  to
  installation. One option we are looking at is electronic
 signature
  on
  the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but
  thought it
  would be good to get some other input.
  If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
  If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you
  use?
  What is good about them? What is not so good

Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-09 Thread Mike Hammett
Whatever the contract states.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 11:15 AM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 For how long? 1 year or for life?

 On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:11 AM, Mike Hammettwispawirel...@ics-il.net 
 wrote:
 I think I learned in high school business law class that payment of a 
 bill
 constitutes agreement with a contract.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com
 Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:47 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 Right on TOS and AUP but not the contract. If I understand contractual
 agreements correctly, all terms must be clear to both parties. So,
 just cause I pay a bill doesnt mean I understand my full obligations
 such as length of terms, etc. I suspect that presenting the actual
 contract electronically when the customer signs up provides full
 disclosure but I'd love to hear from anyone that is using it now an
 dif their lawyer blessed the proceedure.
 -RickG

 On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:57 PM, D. Ryan Spottrsp...@cspott.com wrote:
 I think in most states paying the bill obligates you to the terms of
 service/contract.

 ryan

 Charles Wyble wrote:
 Ah. Gotcha.

 Thanks for clarifying.

 RickG wrote:

 Having an AUP is fine but it doesnt spell out the terms of a specific
 obligation between you  the end user. The big carriers obligate you
 to two year contracts when you agree online so I'm assuming we can do
 the same.
 -RickG


 On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Charles Wyblechar...@thewybles.com
 wrote:

 The big carriers don't require a signature on a contract. They also
 don't do (free/near free) installs either. I don't know if there is 
 a
 signed contract if you pay for an install.

 Yes I realize this is a very important differentiator that we can
 provide, however I don't feel a signed contract is necessary. An AUP
 is
 an excellent idea as a general rule, however if they are transiting
 bits
 on your network, you have the right and obligation to defend that
 network. If you don't, you risk other operators dropping traffic 
 from
 your IP rnage /AS.


 Your free to enforce your AUP with impunity. Failure to do so is the
 sole reason that bits of evil reach our border routers. A few 
 simple
 route filters, and spam/botnets would be stopped. Subscribe to the
 Don't
 Route Or Peer List from Spamhaus
 (http://www.spamhaus.org/drop/index.lasso), and monitor outbound
 traffic.


 *sighs*



 Martha Huizenga wrote:

 Exactly, we send the contract with the install and then get it back
 when
 the install is done. Works fine.

 Jason Hensley wrote:

 Wow. Seems like a waste of time and resources. If I mailed 
 contracts
 like
 that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they 
 would
 never
 send the contract back. Send a contract with the installer, get 
 them
 to
 sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one
 back, done
 deal. If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial 
 confirmation,
 then
 get an actual signature at install.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org 
 [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
 On
 Behalf Of Scott Reed
 Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 We currently use a two-year contract for customers. Right now we
 gather
 the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer 
 and
 wait
 for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule 
 an
 installation. We would like to reduce the time from initial 
 contact
 to
 installation. One option we are looking at is electronic 
 signature
 on
 the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but
 thought it
 would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you
 use?
 What is good about them? What is not so good?



 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-08 Thread Charles Wyble
Ah. Gotcha.

Thanks for clarifying.

RickG wrote:
 Having an AUP is fine but it doesnt spell out the terms of a specific
 obligation between you  the end user. The big carriers obligate you
 to two year contracts when you agree online so I'm assuming we can do
 the same.
 -RickG
 
 
 On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Charles Wyblechar...@thewybles.com wrote:
 The big carriers don't require a signature on a contract. They also
 don't do (free/near free) installs either. I don't know if there is a
 signed contract if you pay for an install.

 Yes I realize this is a very important differentiator that we can
 provide, however I don't feel a signed contract is necessary. An AUP is
 an excellent idea as a general rule, however if they are transiting bits
 on your network, you have the right and obligation to defend that
 network. If you don't, you risk other operators dropping traffic from
 your IP rnage /AS.


 Your free to enforce your AUP with impunity. Failure to do so is the
 sole reason that bits of evil reach our border routers. A few simple
 route filters, and spam/botnets would be stopped. Subscribe to the Don't
 Route Or Peer List from Spamhaus
 (http://www.spamhaus.org/drop/index.lasso), and monitor outbound traffic.


 *sighs*



 Martha Huizenga wrote:
 Exactly, we send the contract with the install and then get it back when
 the install is done. Works fine.

 Jason Hensley wrote:
 Wow.  Seems like a waste of time and resources.  If I mailed contracts like
 that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they would never
 send the contract back.  Send a contract with the installer, get them to
 sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one back, 
 done
 deal.  If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial confirmation, then
 get an actual signature at install.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Scott Reed
 Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 We currently use a two-year contract for customers.  Right now we gather
 the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer and wait
 for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule an
 installation.  We would like to reduce the time from initial contact to
 installation.  One option we are looking at is electronic signature on
 the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but thought it
 would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you use?
 What is good about them?  What is not so good?



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


 
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Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-08 Thread D. Ryan Spott
I think in most states paying the bill obligates you to the terms of 
service/contract.

ryan

Charles Wyble wrote:
 Ah. Gotcha.

 Thanks for clarifying.

 RickG wrote:
   
 Having an AUP is fine but it doesnt spell out the terms of a specific
 obligation between you  the end user. The big carriers obligate you
 to two year contracts when you agree online so I'm assuming we can do
 the same.
 -RickG


 On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Charles Wyblechar...@thewybles.com wrote:
 
 The big carriers don't require a signature on a contract. They also
 don't do (free/near free) installs either. I don't know if there is a
 signed contract if you pay for an install.

 Yes I realize this is a very important differentiator that we can
 provide, however I don't feel a signed contract is necessary. An AUP is
 an excellent idea as a general rule, however if they are transiting bits
 on your network, you have the right and obligation to defend that
 network. If you don't, you risk other operators dropping traffic from
 your IP rnage /AS.


 Your free to enforce your AUP with impunity. Failure to do so is the
 sole reason that bits of evil reach our border routers. A few simple
 route filters, and spam/botnets would be stopped. Subscribe to the Don't
 Route Or Peer List from Spamhaus
 (http://www.spamhaus.org/drop/index.lasso), and monitor outbound traffic.


 *sighs*



 Martha Huizenga wrote:
   
 Exactly, we send the contract with the install and then get it back when
 the install is done. Works fine.

 Jason Hensley wrote:
 
 Wow.  Seems like a waste of time and resources.  If I mailed contracts 
 like
 that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they would never
 send the contract back.  Send a contract with the installer, get them to
 sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one back, 
 done
 deal.  If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial confirmation, then
 get an actual signature at install.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Scott Reed
 Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 We currently use a two-year contract for customers.  Right now we gather
 the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer and wait
 for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule an
 installation.  We would like to reduce the time from initial contact to
 installation.  One option we are looking at is electronic signature on
 the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but thought it
 would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you use?
 What is good about them?  What is not so good?


   
 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-08 Thread RickG
Right on TOS and AUP but not the contract. If I understand contractual
agreements correctly, all terms must be clear to both parties. So,
just cause I pay a bill doesnt mean I understand my full obligations
such as length of terms, etc. I suspect that presenting the actual
contract electronically when the customer signs up provides full
disclosure but I'd love to hear from anyone that is using it now an
dif their lawyer blessed the proceedure.
-RickG

On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 1:57 PM, D. Ryan Spottrsp...@cspott.com wrote:
 I think in most states paying the bill obligates you to the terms of
 service/contract.

 ryan

 Charles Wyble wrote:
 Ah. Gotcha.

 Thanks for clarifying.

 RickG wrote:

 Having an AUP is fine but it doesnt spell out the terms of a specific
 obligation between you  the end user. The big carriers obligate you
 to two year contracts when you agree online so I'm assuming we can do
 the same.
 -RickG


 On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 11:22 PM, Charles Wyblechar...@thewybles.com wrote:

 The big carriers don't require a signature on a contract. They also
 don't do (free/near free) installs either. I don't know if there is a
 signed contract if you pay for an install.

 Yes I realize this is a very important differentiator that we can
 provide, however I don't feel a signed contract is necessary. An AUP is
 an excellent idea as a general rule, however if they are transiting bits
 on your network, you have the right and obligation to defend that
 network. If you don't, you risk other operators dropping traffic from
 your IP rnage /AS.


 Your free to enforce your AUP with impunity. Failure to do so is the
 sole reason that bits of evil reach our border routers. A few simple
 route filters, and spam/botnets would be stopped. Subscribe to the Don't
 Route Or Peer List from Spamhaus
 (http://www.spamhaus.org/drop/index.lasso), and monitor outbound traffic.


 *sighs*



 Martha Huizenga wrote:

 Exactly, we send the contract with the install and then get it back when
 the install is done. Works fine.

 Jason Hensley wrote:

 Wow.  Seems like a waste of time and resources.  If I mailed contracts 
 like
 that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they would never
 send the contract back.  Send a contract with the installer, get them to
 sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one back, 
 done
 deal.  If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial confirmation, 
 then
 get an actual signature at install.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Scott Reed
 Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 We currently use a two-year contract for customers.  Right now we gather
 the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer and wait
 for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule an
 installation.  We would like to reduce the time from initial contact to
 installation.  One option we are looking at is electronic signature on
 the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but thought it
 would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you use?
 What is good about them?  What is not so good?



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-07 Thread Charles Wyble
The big carriers don't require a signature on a contract. They also 
don't do (free/near free) installs either. I don't know if there is a 
signed contract if you pay for an install.

Yes I realize this is a very important differentiator that we can 
provide, however I don't feel a signed contract is necessary. An AUP is 
an excellent idea as a general rule, however if they are transiting bits 
on your network, you have the right and obligation to defend that 
network. If you don't, you risk other operators dropping traffic from 
your IP rnage /AS.


Your free to enforce your AUP with impunity. Failure to do so is the 
sole reason that bits of evil reach our border routers. A few simple 
route filters, and spam/botnets would be stopped. Subscribe to the Don't 
Route Or Peer List from Spamhaus 
(http://www.spamhaus.org/drop/index.lasso), and monitor outbound traffic.


*sighs*



Martha Huizenga wrote:
 Exactly, we send the contract with the install and then get it back when 
 the install is done. Works fine.
 
 Jason Hensley wrote:
 Wow.  Seems like a waste of time and resources.  If I mailed contracts like
 that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they would never
 send the contract back.  Send a contract with the installer, get them to
 sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one back, done
 deal.  If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial confirmation, then
 get an actual signature at install.   



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Scott Reed
 Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 We currently use a two-year contract for customers.  Right now we gather 
 the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer and wait 
 for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule an 
 installation.  We would like to reduce the time from initial contact to 
 installation.  One option we are looking at is electronic signature on 
 the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but thought it 
 would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you use?  
 What is good about them?  What is not so good?

   
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
  
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
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[WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-06 Thread Scott Reed
We currently use a two-year contract for customers.  Right now we gather 
the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer and wait 
for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule an 
installation.  We would like to reduce the time from initial contact to 
installation.  One option we are looking at is electronic signature on 
the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but thought it 
would be good to get some other input.
If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you use?  
What is good about them?  What is not so good?

-- 
Scott Reed
Sr. Systems Engineer
GAB Midwest
1-800-363-1544 x4000
Cell: 260-273-7239




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Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-06 Thread Jason Hensley
Wow.  Seems like a waste of time and resources.  If I mailed contracts like
that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they would never
send the contract back.  Send a contract with the installer, get them to
sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one back, done
deal.  If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial confirmation, then
get an actual signature at install.   



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

We currently use a two-year contract for customers.  Right now we gather 
the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer and wait 
for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule an 
installation.  We would like to reduce the time from initial contact to 
installation.  One option we are looking at is electronic signature on 
the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but thought it 
would be good to get some other input.
If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you use?  
What is good about them?  What is not so good?

-- 
Scott Reed
Sr. Systems Engineer
GAB Midwest
1-800-363-1544 x4000
Cell: 260-273-7239





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Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-06 Thread Adam Greene
Another option is to send the contract to customer via email and have them 
(a) fax back the signature page as proof of order, and (b) mail in two 
partially executed originals. You sign both, keep one original and send the 
2nd original back in the mail. Or use the installer as the courier in one of 
the directions as Jason suggests.

- Original Message - 
From: Jason Hensley jhens...@mozarks.com
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 8:06 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures


 Wow.  Seems like a waste of time and resources.  If I mailed contracts 
 like
 that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they would never
 send the contract back.  Send a contract with the installer, get them to
 sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one back, 
 done
 deal.  If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial confirmation, then
 get an actual signature at install.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Scott Reed
 Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 We currently use a two-year contract for customers.  Right now we gather
 the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer and wait
 for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule an
 installation.  We would like to reduce the time from initial contact to
 installation.  One option we are looking at is electronic signature on
 the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but thought it
 would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you use?
 What is good about them?  What is not so good?

 -- 
 Scott Reed
 Sr. Systems Engineer
 GAB Midwest
 1-800-363-1544 x4000
 Cell: 260-273-7239



 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-06 Thread RickG
We send the contracts out with the installer but I'd like to automate
the whole process as well. I'm not a lawyer but I'm sure there is a
way to have the customer bind a electronically. Anyone?
-RickG

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Scott Reedscottr...@onlyinternet.net wrote:
 We currently use a two-year contract for customers.  Right now we gather
 the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer and wait
 for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule an
 installation.  We would like to reduce the time from initial contact to
 installation.  One option we are looking at is electronic signature on
 the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but thought it
 would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you use?
 What is good about them?  What is not so good?

 --
 Scott Reed
 Sr. Systems Engineer
 GAB Midwest
 1-800-363-1544 x4000
 Cell: 260-273-7239



 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 

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Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-06 Thread Jerry Richardson
During our signup process the customer is presented with our agreement. Then in 
order to proceed ther is a check box I have read the agreement. As far as I 
know this is binding. 


 
 
__ 
Jerry Richardson 
airCloud Communications

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of RickG
Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 8:22 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

We send the contracts out with the installer but I'd like to automate the whole 
process as well. I'm not a lawyer but I'm sure there is a way to have the 
customer bind a electronically. Anyone?
-RickG

On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Scott Reedscottr...@onlyinternet.net wrote:
 We currently use a two-year contract for customers.  Right now we 
 gather the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer 
 and wait for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we 
 schedule an installation.  We would like to reduce the time from 
 initial contact to installation.  One option we are looking at is 
 electronic signature on the contract. We have done some research 
 into doing this, but thought it would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you use?
 What is good about them?  What is not so good?

 --
 Scott Reed
 Sr. Systems Engineer
 GAB Midwest
 1-800-363-1544 x4000
 Cell: 260-273-7239



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 --
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Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-06 Thread Josh Luthman
Crrently we do it via email, fax or by hand at the install site (in
that order).  Here soon we will be doing electronic with the software
we used to manage and bill the whole wisp.

On 6/6/09, Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com wrote:
 During our signup process the customer is presented with our agreement. Then
 in order to proceed ther is a check box I have read the agreement. As far
 as I know this is binding.




 __
 Jerry Richardson
 airCloud Communications

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of RickG
 Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 8:22 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 We send the contracts out with the installer but I'd like to automate the
 whole process as well. I'm not a lawyer but I'm sure there is a way to have
 the customer bind a electronically. Anyone?
 -RickG

 On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 7:42 AM, Scott Reedscottr...@onlyinternet.net
 wrote:
 We currently use a two-year contract for customers.  Right now we
 gather the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer
 and wait for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we
 schedule an installation.  We would like to reduce the time from
 initial contact to installation.  One option we are looking at is
 electronic signature on the contract. We have done some research
 into doing this, but thought it would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you use?
 What is good about them?  What is not so good?

 --
 Scott Reed
 Sr. Systems Engineer
 GAB Midwest
 1-800-363-1544 x4000
 Cell: 260-273-7239



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Re: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

2009-06-06 Thread Martha Huizenga
Exactly, we send the contract with the install and then get it back when 
the install is done. Works fine.

Jason Hensley wrote:
 Wow.  Seems like a waste of time and resources.  If I mailed contracts like
 that here I'd lose half my install opportunities because they would never
 send the contract back.  Send a contract with the installer, get them to
 sign it before they install, give one copy to customer, bring one back, done
 deal.  If nothing else, get an electronic as an initial confirmation, then
 get an actual signature at install.   



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Scott Reed
 Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 6:42 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: [WISPA] Electronic Signatures

 We currently use a two-year contract for customers.  Right now we gather 
 the information, generate a contract, USMail it to the customer and wait 
 for them to USMail it back after they sign it before we schedule an 
 installation.  We would like to reduce the time from initial contact to 
 installation.  One option we are looking at is electronic signature on 
 the contract. We have done some research into doing this, but thought it 
 would be good to get some other input.
 If you do electronic signatures, how do you do it?
 If you use a third party to certify the signatures, who do you use?  
 What is good about them?  What is not so good?

   



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