Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP
Speaking of which --> http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/2004/06/08.html -RickG On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 6:41 PM, Brian Rohrbacher wrote: > > > Scott Carullo wrote: > > Or AP/subscriber ratio is super low where we dont usually have more than a > dozen or so but this is necessary for selling optimal speed and providing > quality voip services. > > > 20 subs on a tower is a good tower for me. If only cows needed > WiFi > Brian > > 5MB speeds to our customers doesn't impress them, 10-20 does. Its a tough > market here with lots of competition. VoIP gets a bit hairy over about 12 > customers on an ap pulling that kind of bw. We have lots of APs / Towers > :) > > Scott Carullo > Brevard Wireless > 321-205-1100 x102 > > Original Message > > > From: "Travis Johnson" > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:11 AM > To: "WISPA General List" > Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of > > > topic -- customers / AP > > > > > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > > > > > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP
Scott Carullo wrote:
Or AP/subscriber ratio is super low where we dont usually have more than a
dozen or so but this is necessary for selling optimal speed and providing
quality voip services.
20 subs on a tower is a good tower for me. If only cows needed
WiFi
Brian
5MB speeds to our customers doesn't impress them, 10-20 does. Its a tough
market here with lots of competition. VoIP gets a bit hairy over about 12
customers on an ap pulling that kind of bw. We have lots of APs / Towers
:)
Scott Carullo
Brevard Wireless
321-205-1100 x102
Original Message
From: "Travis Johnson"
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:11 AM
To: "WISPA General List"
Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of
topic -- customers / AP
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Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP
Even in the most competitive urban markets, if you're selling VoIP + Data as a combined offering, I'd bet that your ARPU is at least $200+ / month Heck, from our experience, we find that voice revenues are generally 2-4x data revenues -- so if a business is paying $75 / month for a business connection, they will probably spend $150-250 / month on VoIP (for business, say we assume an average of $30 / handset -- that's 5-10 handsets) So, say you have 15 business customers at $200 / month, and 20 residential customers at $50 / month for the evenings You're still @ $4k / AP Or, since we're ultimately talking channels -- with GPS synchronization, it's possible to put a minimum of 2 APs / channel (and if you're on a building in an urban environment, you could be stupid like us and put 4 APs on a single channel =) In this scenario, the value per channel of LEGAL high-power unlicensed spectrum keeps going up -Charles P.S. -- care to share your numbers? I only have personal data to go by...and I in range? Or way off? -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 1:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP Or AP/subscriber ratio is super low where we dont usually have more than a dozen or so but this is necessary for selling optimal speed and providing quality voip services. 5MB speeds to our customers doesn't impress them, 10-20 does. Its a tough market here with lots of competition. VoIP gets a bit hairy over about 12 customers on an ap pulling that kind of bw. We have lots of APs / Towers :) Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message > From: "Travis Johnson" > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:11 AM > To: "WISPA General List" > Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP
Hi Greg, The issue with VoIP over shared wireless is contention for time slots -- which translates into jitter and pps -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 5:00 AM To: sc...@brevardwireless.com; WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP With VoIP is it really a bandwidth issue or is it a latency issue? My experience is mostly with Skype and not SIP/H323 but what I've seen is that the bandwidth consumed isn't very high but the latency makes it or breaks it. Greg On Apr 11, 2009, at 1:54 AM, Scott Carullo wrote: > > Or AP/subscriber ratio is super low where we dont usually have more > than a > dozen or so but this is necessary for selling optimal speed and > providing > quality voip services. > > 5MB speeds to our customers doesn't impress them, 10-20 does. Its a > tough > market here with lots of competition. VoIP gets a bit hairy over > about 12 > customers on an ap pulling that kind of bw. We have lots of APs / > Towers > :) > > Scott Carullo > Brevard Wireless > 321-205-1100 x102 > > Original Message >> From: "Travis Johnson" >> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:11 AM >> To: "WISPA General List" >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - >> change of > topic -- customers / AP >> >> > > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> > > >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP
Travis It has been great to see how you have turned into seasoned Canopy provider SO i must assume your opinion of the product has changed recently... Gino A. Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:11 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP Hi, I think that's maybe a little high... we have a Canopy AP right now with 100 users on it... about 10% business and 90% residential and it's probably bringing in about $3,500 / month. We will probably load it up to about 120 users total, at which point it will be around $4,000 / month. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Which begs an interesting point -- how much revenue / AP? I would think $5k / month for a 20 MHz chunk of 5.8 spectrum, while a bit on the higher side, isn't an unreasonable goal Using Canopy...you have 14 Mb aggregate Selling for $50 / month residential -- that's 100 customers sharing 14 Mb Splitting between $100 / month business and $50 / month residential (for better traffic shaping) -- that's now 20 business customers during the day time (8-5) 60 residential customers in the afternoon / evening (4-12) Now obviously, there will always be places where you're shooting into a hole, or there aren't that many homes / business being covered, blah blah blah blah -- but I don't think $5k / month / AP is an unreasonable goal Thoughts? Comments? -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed This has been an outstanding thread I have enjoyed reading - and learned a bit in the process... thanks. I'll just add that while we are trying to keep the numbers trained to a common wisp - either you guys have a lucky horse shoe or achieving a $5000/mo revenue on one ap is a bit outside the avg... At least for discussion sake. But - even at 1/5th of that your argument still holds true for the most part. Its just that you add in 900mhz (not as common) and all the lower power 5Ghz spectrum available now, 2.4Ghz etc and also mention you can run MT stuff on 10Mhz channels and you just effectively doubled your options based on what type of clients you are servicing etc... Then theres radios that have GPS sync for spectrum reuse etc and the conversation starts to get a lot more complex :) But, in any case this has been an eye-opening discussion... Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: "Charles Wu" Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:47 PM To: "WISPA General List" <mailto:wireless@wispa.org> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however. I've got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but only put out about 18-25meg at those distances. That's enough for me, but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed link. Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 years old, is still one (if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure technological perspective -- no other radio has it's combination of 1024FFT OFDM, Space-Time-Coding, MIMO, etc Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided to get the engineers who built that radio =) And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the wonderful things that a PTP600 does / can do However, the discussion
Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP
With VoIP is it really a bandwidth issue or is it a latency issue? My experience is mostly with Skype and not SIP/H323 but what I've seen is that the bandwidth consumed isn't very high but the latency makes it or breaks it. Greg On Apr 11, 2009, at 1:54 AM, Scott Carullo wrote: > > Or AP/subscriber ratio is super low where we dont usually have more > than a > dozen or so but this is necessary for selling optimal speed and > providing > quality voip services. > > 5MB speeds to our customers doesn't impress them, 10-20 does. Its a > tough > market here with lots of competition. VoIP gets a bit hairy over > about 12 > customers on an ap pulling that kind of bw. We have lots of APs / > Towers > :) > > Scott Carullo > Brevard Wireless > 321-205-1100 x102 > > Original Message >> From: "Travis Johnson" >> Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:11 AM >> To: "WISPA General List" >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - >> change of > topic -- customers / AP >> >> > > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> > > >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP
Or AP/subscriber ratio is super low where we dont usually have more than a dozen or so but this is necessary for selling optimal speed and providing quality voip services. 5MB speeds to our customers doesn't impress them, 10-20 does. Its a tough market here with lots of competition. VoIP gets a bit hairy over about 12 customers on an ap pulling that kind of bw. We have lots of APs / Towers :) Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message > From: "Travis Johnson" > Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2009 12:11 AM > To: "WISPA General List" > Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP
Hi, I think that's maybe a little high... we have a Canopy AP right now with 100 users on it... about 10% business and 90% residential and it's probably bringing in about $3,500 / month. We will probably load it up to about 120 users total, at which point it will be around $4,000 / month. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Which begs an interesting point -- how much revenue / AP? I would think $5k / month for a 20 MHz chunk of 5.8 spectrum, while a bit on the higher side, isn't an unreasonable goal Using Canopy...you have 14 Mb aggregate Selling for $50 / month residential -- that's 100 customers sharing 14 Mb Splitting between $100 / month business and $50 / month residential (for better traffic shaping) -- that's now 20 business customers during the day time (8-5) 60 residential customers in the afternoon / evening (4-12) Now obviously, there will always be places where you're shooting into a hole, or there aren't that many homes / business being covered, blah blah blah blah -- but I don't think $5k / month / AP is an unreasonable goal Thoughts? Comments? -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed This has been an outstanding thread I have enjoyed reading - and learned a bit in the process... thanks. I'll just add that while we are trying to keep the numbers trained to a common wisp - either you guys have a lucky horse shoe or achieving a $5000/mo revenue on one ap is a bit outside the avg... At least for discussion sake. But - even at 1/5th of that your argument still holds true for the most part. Its just that you add in 900mhz (not as common) and all the lower power 5Ghz spectrum available now, 2.4Ghz etc and also mention you can run MT stuff on 10Mhz channels and you just effectively doubled your options based on what type of clients you are servicing etc... Then theres radios that have GPS sync for spectrum reuse etc and the conversation starts to get a lot more complex :) But, in any case this has been an eye-opening discussion... Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message From: "Charles Wu" Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:47 PM To: "WISPA General List" Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however. I've got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but only put out about 18-25meg at those distances. That's enough for me, but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed link. Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 years old, is still one (if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure technological perspective -- no other radio has it's combination of 1024FFT OFDM, Space-Time-Coding, MIMO, etc Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided to get the engineers who built that radio =) And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the wonderful things that a PTP600 does / can do However, the discussion has to come back to the reality that we don't work for the government (and can't print money or write stimulus bills on a whim), and as a result, have to figure out a way to make a buck so we can feed the dog, buy gas, pay for those ski trips in Utah... That said, we get back to "bang for buck" or "good enough" True, the PTP600 will generally work for all scenarios, but it's akin to killing a bug with a nuclear warhead -- it's a lot more cost effective (and there's less collateral damage) if you just step on it with your shoe So, for the 1% of times when you need to shoot 50+ miles while bouncing off 2 different mountains, the PTP600 will be your best bet But for the other 90% of the time, when you have a 10-20 mile shot and want something that reliable, carrier-class, and interference / spectrum isn't an issue, many are using Mikrotiks / StarOS / Trango Atlas / name your own cheap but decent proprietary Atheros-based system out there Now, I'm personally extremely cheap, but the argument is over because you can't just look at up-front price because long-term cost is just as (if not more) important when talking about WISP networks That said, being a slow day, it's worth exercising one's mind to analyze possible "what-if" alternative situations -- bear with me here and follow my logic here... The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM
Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed - change of topic -- customers / AP
Which begs an interesting point -- how much revenue / AP? I would think $5k / month for a 20 MHz chunk of 5.8 spectrum, while a bit on the higher side, isn't an unreasonable goal Using Canopy...you have 14 Mb aggregate Selling for $50 / month residential -- that's 100 customers sharing 14 Mb Splitting between $100 / month business and $50 / month residential (for better traffic shaping) -- that's now 20 business customers during the day time (8-5) 60 residential customers in the afternoon / evening (4-12) Now obviously, there will always be places where you're shooting into a hole, or there aren't that many homes / business being covered, blah blah blah blah -- but I don't think $5k / month / AP is an unreasonable goal Thoughts? Comments? -Charles -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Scott Carullo Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 5:56 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed This has been an outstanding thread I have enjoyed reading - and learned a bit in the process... thanks. I'll just add that while we are trying to keep the numbers trained to a common wisp - either you guys have a lucky horse shoe or achieving a $5000/mo revenue on one ap is a bit outside the avg... At least for discussion sake. But - even at 1/5th of that your argument still holds true for the most part. Its just that you add in 900mhz (not as common) and all the lower power 5Ghz spectrum available now, 2.4Ghz etc and also mention you can run MT stuff on 10Mhz channels and you just effectively doubled your options based on what type of clients you are servicing etc... Then theres radios that have GPS sync for spectrum reuse etc and the conversation starts to get a lot more complex :) But, in any case this has been an eye-opening discussion... Scott Carullo Brevard Wireless 321-205-1100 x102 Original Message > From: "Charles Wu" > Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 2:47 PM > To: "WISPA General List" > Subject: Re: [WISPA] High Throughput Licensed vs. Unlicensed > > >I do see Travis's point about the longer range shots, however. I've > >got a 35, 45 and 65 mile shots with StarOS and they work just fine but > >only put out about 18-25meg at those distances. That's enough for me, > >but I can see where you would want more capacity and I suppose that > >within that narrow definition, a PTP600 would be better than a licensed > >link. > > Make no mistake, the PTP600, even though it's almost 5 years old, is still one (if not the) best UL radio on the market from a pure technological perspective -- no other radio has it's combination of 1024FFT OFDM, Space-Time-Coding, MIMO, etc > > Makes you wonder what planet Motorola / Orthogon raided to get the engineers who built that radio =) > > And I'm sure many on the list can attest to the wonderful things that a PTP600 does / can do > > However, the discussion has to come back to the reality that we don't work for the government (and can't print money or write stimulus bills on a whim), and as a result, have to figure out a way to make a buck so we can feed the dog, buy gas, pay for those ski trips in Utah... > > That said, we get back to "bang for buck" or "good enough" > > True, the PTP600 will generally work for all scenarios, but it's akin to killing a bug with a nuclear warhead -- it's a lot more cost effective (and there's less collateral damage) if you just step on it with your shoe > > So, for the 1% of times when you need to shoot 50+ miles while bouncing off 2 different mountains, the PTP600 will be your best bet > > But for the other 90% of the time, when you have a 10-20 mile shot and want something that reliable, carrier-class, and interference / spectrum isn't an issue, many are using Mikrotiks / StarOS / Trango Atlas / name your own cheap but decent proprietary Atheros-based system out there > > Now, I'm personally extremely cheap, but the argument is over because you can't just look at up-front price because long-term cost is just as (if not more) important when talking about WISP networks > > That said, being a slow day, it's worth exercising one's mind to analyze possible "what-if" alternative situations -- bear with me here and follow my logic here... > > The MOST VALUABLE ASSET of any WISP is HIGH POWER MULTIPOINT SPECTRUM (b/c ultimately, it's the only thing that generates revenue, and like it or not, the #1 determinant in valuing a WISP, or any business for the matter, is EBITDA) > > In optimal conditions, there's 125 MHz of clean spectrum (6 channels) > Assuming you can make $5k / month per AP (or channel) -- as spectrum gets limited, the decision will ultimately boil down to > > 1. Pay $2k for a cheap Atheros based backhaul to bring 30 Mb to your tower and lose 1 channel (or $5k / month in revenue) > > 2. Run that backhaul in turbo mode, get 50 Mb at your tower, and
