Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
After talking to them both now, I am ready to admit my mistake on this one. Since I had been doing my own VoIP since 2004, I just lumped them into the people I don't need category. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/17/2012 9:59 AM, John Scrivner wrote: On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net mailto:wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national providers cover areas where broadband is not already available. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com Actually Net Sapiens and Ipifony are not in the business of reselling a national provider. They sell hardware and managed services for getting into the VoIP business. That is not to say they would not help you connect with a national provider if that is the path that one chose to get there. That is one piece of a large puzzle they help you complete. I have talked to both companies extensively. What I did not know was that there is more to being a facilities based ETC than buying the gear that NetSapiens and Ipifony sell. I wish those companies would come on here and discuss this with you guys more but I know for a fact they are more than just resellers of national player services as Mike has said here. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
Another great post. Thanks, Fred! It might take a few more readings to fully digest everything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/17/2012 4:20 PM, Fred Goldstein wrote: At 2/17/2012 11:30 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: So meeting the switch at each rate center is free, but meeting at the tandem costs money? I had always thought that you built to a tandem for $X and if your traffic with a given switch exceeded a certain amount, you then connected to that tandem and then each switch at $X*Y where Y is the number of switches you connect to. Then again, I'm not a CLEC. There are two different points involved. While the terminology varies place to place, one might call the interconnect point the switch that your trunk goes to and the point of interconnection the physical handoff. Or one might use the opposite terminology -- different ILECs' ICAs used them both ways, though nowadays the IP is usually not discussed by name. But for this discussion I'll use the former form. You generally need one POI per LATA per ILEC for all local traffic. Some ICAs, especially those that waive intraLATA access charges, may require more POIs, but the actual rule is single POI. So you can run a circuit to any old wire center and declare that to be your POI. You build or pay for your trunks to the POI, and they bring their trunks to the POI, and reciprocal compensation then applies to the calls (unless you are on a bill and keep arrangement). Plus transit per-minute rates for calls to other carriers on the tandem. But no $X per trunk. However, that POI may have multiple IPs on it. You start by connecting to each tandem that serves your local calling areas. (General rule: In VZland, tandems are strictly geographic. In 13-state-ATTland, they aren't, and you may have to connect to every tandem in the LATA, just to serve one rate center. But you don't pay for the mileage; it just means a lot of T1s if there are a lot of tandems.) Now if your traffic to any one switch exceeds the level of a T1 (about 300k minutes/month), they can require a Direct End Office Trunk. This helps unload the tandem. But the mileage is on their side of the POI so you don't pay for it. But for access (non-local) traffic, you do pay the mileage to every tandem that serves your rate centers. If the trunk carries a mix of local and non-local traffic (quite normal for intraLATA toll), then the price of the trunk is usually prorated based on the Percentage of Local Use (PLU). So if it's PLU 80, then you pay 20% of the mileage. On a meet point trunk that carries only interLATA traffic, you pay 100% (because it's PLU0), but also the mileage rate is prorated between the state and interstate tariffs (based on PIU, percentage of interstate use). And if the access circuit crosses between ILEC territories, it might be meet-point billed, prorated between the carriers between you and the tandem. Meet point ratios are found in NECA Tariff 4. This is all rather baroque and thus hard for the ILECs to administer correctly. So billing disputes are remarkably common. It's easiest, actually, in a rural area where one local trunk group picks up the whole local area and a separate (billable) tandem trunk picks up non-local calls. On 2/17/2012 10:21 AM, Fred Goldstein wrote: At 2/17/2012 10:59 AM, John Scrivener wrote: On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net mailto:wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national providers cover areas where broadband is not already available. Â Actually Net Sapiens and Ipifony are not in the business of reselling a national provider. They sell hardware and managed services for getting into the VoIP business. That is not to say they would not help you connect with a national provider if that is the path that one chose to get there. That is one piece of a large puzzle they help you complete. I have talked to both companies extensively. What I did not know was that there is more to being a facilities based ETC than buying the gear that NetSapiens and Ipifony sell. I wish those companies would come on here and discuss this with you guys more but I know for a fact they are more than just resellers of national player services as Mike has said here. Scriv Those are equipment vendors, not resellers. But at least from their web site descriptions of the product, they don't talk about SS7 connectivity and IMTs, which are the heart of Class 4 operation, and needed to be a CLEC. So if you're in a place that has CLECs (Level 3, Widnstream/Paetec, Earthlink, and who ever else hasn't been rolled up yet) selling SIP trunks of PRIs, great. But if you're in the rural areas where broadband=WISP and backhaul to a NAP = $, then you may need to create your own CLEC switching. FWIW, current rules (this is open in the pending FNPRM,
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
Sounds interesting. My wife started a CLEC several years ago, but then got busy with some other projects, and not much has been done with it yet. Kevin - Original Message - From: Fred Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor At 2/16/2012 07:01 PM, Kevin Sullivan wrote: I don't know enough about the CLEC stuff to say for sure, but that sounds interesting. Would that let you get local DID's for VoIP? Yes. Numbers are given to CLECs, so you'd create a CLEC or team up with an existing CLEC that doesn't yet serve your area, and then could pull phone number blocks from NANPA. Kevin - Original Message - From: Fred R. Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:57 PM Subject: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be subsidized to provide broadband unless there is an unsubsidized competitor who provides both voice and data service. Jack Unger has written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it to be unsubsidized competition, wherein the data provider needn't be the voice provider. But there's no guarantee that the FCC (currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action. A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP. It need not be a certificated CLEC. However, to get the VoIP service and local numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the tandem switch serving its area. In some rural areas, this might not be available. So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least get one to serve its area. While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a switch, that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway. At least one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote rent a call agent service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere, passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN. So the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks into the local central office. The VoIP side of the gateway then feeds the subscribers. I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type of service? Would it help anyone meet the unsubsidized competitor requirement? Thanks... -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
If I am not mistaken, WISPA has a couple of Vendor Members who already sell a turnkey solution to this, Ipiphony and NetSapiens both sell complete switch solutions to provide full-blown CLEC level services via VoIP I believe. It may be that I am not understanding what you are proposing though. Any help along these lines is much appreciated. I am certainly no telco specialist so don't let me stop the ideas from coming. John Scrivner On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Fred R. Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.comwrote: The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be subsidized to provide broadband unless there is an unsubsidized competitor who provides both voice and data service. Jack Unger has written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it to be unsubsidized competition, wherein the data provider needn't be the voice provider. But there's no guarantee that the FCC (currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action. A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP. It need not be a certificated CLEC. However, to get the VoIP service and local numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the tandem switch serving its area. In some rural areas, this might not be available. So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least get one to serve its area. While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a switch, that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway. At least one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote rent a call agent service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere, passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN. So the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks into the local central office. The VoIP side of the gateway then feeds the subscribers. I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type of service? Would it help anyone meet the unsubsidized competitor requirement? Thanks... -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
At 2/17/2012 08:53 AM, John Scrivner wrote: If I am not mistaken, WISPA has a couple of Vendor Members who already sell a turnkey solution to this, Ipiphony and NetSapiens both sell complete switch solutions to provide full-blown CLEC level services via VoIP I believe. It may be that I am not understanding what you are proposing though. Any help along these lines is much appreciated. I am certainly no telco specialist so don't let me stop the ideas from coming. John Scrivner I'm not talking about buying your own VoIP call agent (softswitch), but about obtaining it as a service. The vast majority of VoIP platforms, including the ones you site, are basically PBXs. They do not directly interface to ILEC tandem switches or the SS7 network. Rather, they assume that you can buy PRIs or SIP trunks from a legacy CLEC in your area, probably off of that DMS-500 first installed in 1998 to serve modems. So that company is the CLEC and you're a value-added VoIP retailer. That's a perfectly okay model if you have a good CLEC in your area. But you might not. The rent-a-call-agent model I'm talking about is to take the place of that old DMS, not the PBX/Centrex function. So it would take InterMachine Trunks from the ILEC, who sends the signaling across the SS7 network to the call agent (remotely). You'd then get SIP off of your own local media gateway, and could feed that into a feature server or your choice of VoIP platform, or just feed the VoIP POTS-type lines (what you need ot be an unsubsidized competitor) directly from the gateway into your network. You're the CLEC, not the company who bought the company that bought a DMS-500. But your switch is just a local gateway, like an Audiocodes Mediant 2000, and it's managed as a service. Does that clarify things? On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Fred R. Goldstein mailto:fgoldst...@ionary.comfgoldst...@ionary.com wrote: The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be subsidized to provide broadband unless there is an unsubsidized competitor who provides both voice and data service.  Jack Unger has written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it to be unsubsidized competition, wherein the data provider needn't be the voice provider.  But there's no guarantee that the FCC (currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action. A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP.  It need not be a certificated CLEC.  However, to get the VoIP service and local numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the tandem switch serving its area.  In some rural areas, this might not be available.  So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least get one to serve its area. While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a switch, that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway.  At least one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote rent a call agent service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere, passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN.  So the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks into the local central office.  The VoIP side of the gateway then feeds the subscribers. I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type of service?  Would it help anyone meet the unsubsidized competitor requirement?  Thanks...  --  Fred Goldstein   k1io  fgoldstein at http://ionary.comionary.com  ionary Consulting        http://www.ionary.com/http://www.ionary.com/  tel:%2B1%20617%20795%202701+1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelesshttp://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national providers cover areas where broadband is not already available. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/17/2012 7:53 AM, John Scrivner wrote: If I am not mistaken, WISPA has a couple of Vendor Members who already sell a turnkey solution to this, Ipiphony and NetSapiens both sell complete switch solutions to provide full-blown CLEC level services via VoIP I believe. It may be that I am not understanding what you are proposing though. Any help along these lines is much appreciated. I am certainly no telco specialist so don't let me stop the ideas from coming. John Scrivner On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 3:57 PM, Fred R. Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com mailto:fgoldst...@ionary.com wrote: The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be subsidized to provide broadband unless there is an unsubsidized competitor who provides both voice and data service. Jack Unger has written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it to be unsubsidized competition, wherein the data provider needn't be the voice provider. But there's no guarantee that the FCC (currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action. A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP. It need not be a certificated CLEC. However, to get the VoIP service and local numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the tandem switch serving its area. In some rural areas, this might not be available. So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least get one to serve its area. While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a switch, that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway. At least one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote rent a call agent service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere, passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN. So the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks into the local central office. The VoIP side of the gateway then feeds the subscribers. I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type of service? Would it help anyone meet the unsubsidized competitor requirement? Thanks... -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com http://ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 tel:%2B1%20617%20795%202701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.netwrote: They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national providers cover areas where broadband is not already available. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutionshttp://www.ics-il.com Actually Net Sapiens and Ipifony are not in the business of reselling a national provider. They sell hardware and managed services for getting into the VoIP business. That is not to say they would not help you connect with a national provider if that is the path that one chose to get there. That is one piece of a large puzzle they help you complete. I have talked to both companies extensively. What I did not know was that there is more to being a facilities based ETC than buying the gear that NetSapiens and Ipifony sell. I wish those companies would come on here and discuss this with you guys more but I know for a fact they are more than just resellers of national player services as Mike has said here. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
At 2/17/2012 10:59 AM, John Scrivener wrote: On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Mike Hammett mailto:wispawirel...@ics-il.netwispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national providers cover areas where broadband is not already available. Â Actually Net Sapiens and Ipifony are not in the business of reselling a national provider. They sell hardware and managed services for getting into the VoIP business. That is not to say they would not help you connect with a national provider if that is the path that one chose to get there. That is one piece of a large puzzle they help you complete. I have talked to both companies extensively. What I did not know was that there is more to being a facilities based ETC than buying the gear that NetSapiens and Ipifony sell. I wish those companies would come on here and discuss this with you guys more but I know for a fact they are more than just resellers of national player services as Mike has said here. Scriv Those are equipment vendors, not resellers. But at least from their web site descriptions of the product, they don't talk about SS7 connectivity and IMTs, which are the heart of Class 4 operation, and needed to be a CLEC. So if you're in a place that has CLECs (Level 3, Widnstream/Paetec, Earthlink, and who ever else hasn't been rolled up yet) selling SIP trunks of PRIs, great. But if you're in the rural areas where broadband=WISP and backhaul to a NAP = $, then you may need to create your own CLEC switching. FWIW, current rules (this is open in the pending FNPRM, Comments due next Friday) are that, in general, local trunks are exchanged with ILECs at no charge, provided you meet them inside any of their central offices (via collocation, mid-span fiber meet, or by paying them for the entrance facility). But toll (inter-LATA) traffic arrives on trunks into the regional access tandem, and you usually have to pay for that mileage at fairly high (switched access transport) rates. Fortuantely, most trunks are local. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
So meeting the switch at each rate center is free, but meeting at the tandem costs money? I had always thought that you built to a tandem for $X and if your traffic with a given switch exceeded a certain amount, you then connected to that tandem and then each switch at $X*Y where Y is the number of switches you connect to. Then again, I'm not a CLEC. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com On 2/17/2012 10:21 AM, Fred Goldstein wrote: At 2/17/2012 10:59 AM, John Scrivener wrote: On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net mailto:wispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national providers cover areas where broadband is not already available. Â Actually Net Sapiens and Ipifony are not in the business of reselling a national provider. They sell hardware and managed services for getting into the VoIP business. That is not to say they would not help you connect with a national provider if that is the path that one chose to get there. That is one piece of a large puzzle they help you complete. I have talked to both companies extensively. What I did not know was that there is more to being a facilities based ETC than buying the gear that NetSapiens and Ipifony sell. I wish those companies would come on here and discuss this with you guys more but I know for a fact they are more than just resellers of national player services as Mike has said here. Scriv Those are equipment vendors, not resellers. But at least from their web site descriptions of the product, they don't talk about SS7 connectivity and IMTs, which are the heart of Class 4 operation, and needed to be a CLEC. So if you're in a place that has CLECs (Level 3, Widnstream/Paetec, Earthlink, and who ever else hasn't been rolled up yet) selling SIP trunks of PRIs, great. But if you're in the rural areas where broadband=WISP and backhaul to a NAP = $, then you may need to create your own CLEC switching. FWIW, current rules (this is open in the pending FNPRM, Comments due next Friday) are that, in general, local trunks are exchanged with ILECs at no charge, provided you meet them inside any of their central offices (via collocation, mid-span fiber meet, or by paying them for the entrance facility). But toll (inter-LATA) traffic arrives on trunks into the regional access tandem, and you usually have to pay for that mileage at fairly high (switched access transport) rates. Fortuantely, most trunks are local. -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
At 2/17/2012 11:30 AM, Mike Hammett wrote: So meeting the switch at each rate center is free, but meeting at the tandem costs money? I had always thought that you built to a tandem for $X and if your traffic with a given switch exceeded a certain amount, you then connected to that tandem and then each switch at $X*Y where Y is the number of switches you connect to. Then again, I'm not a CLEC. There are two different points involved. While the terminology varies place to place, one might call the interconnect point the switch that your trunk goes to and the point of interconnection the physical handoff. Or one might use the opposite terminology -- different ILECs' ICAs used them both ways, though nowadays the IP is usually not discussed by name. But for this discussion I'll use the former form. You generally need one POI per LATA per ILEC for all local traffic. Some ICAs, especially those that waive intraLATA access charges, may require more POIs, but the actual rule is single POI. So you can run a circuit to any old wire center and declare that to be your POI. You build or pay for your trunks to the POI, and they bring their trunks to the POI, and reciprocal compensation then applies to the calls (unless you are on a bill and keep arrangement). Plus transit per-minute rates for calls to other carriers on the tandem. But no $X per trunk. However, that POI may have multiple IPs on it. You start by connecting to each tandem that serves your local calling areas. (General rule: In VZland, tandems are strictly geographic. In 13-state-ATTland, they aren't, and you may have to connect to every tandem in the LATA, just to serve one rate center. But you don't pay for the mileage; it just means a lot of T1s if there are a lot of tandems.) Now if your traffic to any one switch exceeds the level of a T1 (about 300k minutes/month), they can require a Direct End Office Trunk. This helps unload the tandem. But the mileage is on their side of the POI so you don't pay for it. But for access (non-local) traffic, you do pay the mileage to every tandem that serves your rate centers. If the trunk carries a mix of local and non-local traffic (quite normal for intraLATA toll), then the price of the trunk is usually prorated based on the Percentage of Local Use (PLU). So if it's PLU 80, then you pay 20% of the mileage. On a meet point trunk that carries only interLATA traffic, you pay 100% (because it's PLU0), but also the mileage rate is prorated between the state and interstate tariffs (based on PIU, percentage of interstate use). And if the access circuit crosses between ILEC territories, it might be meet-point billed, prorated between the carriers between you and the tandem. Meet point ratios are found in NECA Tariff 4. This is all rather baroque and thus hard for the ILECs to administer correctly. So billing disputes are remarkably common. It's easiest, actually, in a rural area where one local trunk group picks up the whole local area and a separate (billable) tandem trunk picks up non-local calls. On 2/17/2012 10:21 AM, Fred Goldstein wrote: At 2/17/2012 10:59 AM, John Scrivener wrote: On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:51 AM, Mike Hammett mailto:wispawirel...@ics-il.netwispawirel...@ics-il.net wrote: They just resell a national provider. Rarely do these national providers cover areas where broadband is not already available. Â Actually Net Sapiens and Ipifony are not in the business of reselling a national provider. They sell hardware and managed services for getting into the VoIP business. That is not to say they would not help you connect with a national provider if that is the path that one chose to get there. That is one piece of a large puzzle they help you complete. I have talked to both companies extensively. What I did not know was that there is more to being a facilities based ETC than buying the gear that NetSapiens and Ipifony sell. I wish those companies would come on here and discuss this with you guys more but I know for a fact they are more than just resellers of national player services as Mike has said here. Scriv Those are equipment vendors, not resellers. But at least from their web site descriptions of the product, they don't talk about SS7 connectivity and IMTs, which are the heart of Class 4 operation, and needed to be a CLEC. So if you're in a place that has CLECs (Level 3, Widnstream/Paetec, Earthlink, and who ever else hasn't been rolled up yet) selling SIP trunks of PRIs, great. But if you're in the rural areas where broadband=WISP and backhaul to a NAP = $, then you may need to create your own CLEC switching. FWIW, current rules (this is open in the pending FNPRM, Comments due next Friday) are that, in general, local trunks are exchanged with ILECs at no charge, provided you meet them inside any of their central offices (via collocation, mid-span fiber meet, or by paying them for the
[WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be subsidized to provide broadband unless there is an unsubsidized competitor who provides both voice and data service. Jack Unger has written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it to be unsubsidized competition, wherein the data provider needn't be the voice provider. But there's no guarantee that the FCC (currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action. A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP. It need not be a certificated CLEC. However, to get the VoIP service and local numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the tandem switch serving its area. In some rural areas, this might not be available. So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least get one to serve its area. While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a switch, that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway. At least one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote rent a call agent service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere, passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN. So the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks into the local central office. The VoIP side of the gateway then feeds the subscribers. I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type of service? Would it help anyone meet the unsubsidized competitor requirement? Thanks... -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
I don't know enough about the CLEC stuff to say for sure, but that sounds interesting. Would that let you get local DID's for VoIP? Kevin - Original Message - From: Fred R. Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:57 PM Subject: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be subsidized to provide broadband unless there is an unsubsidized competitor who provides both voice and data service. Jack Unger has written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it to be unsubsidized competition, wherein the data provider needn't be the voice provider. But there's no guarantee that the FCC (currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action. A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP. It need not be a certificated CLEC. However, to get the VoIP service and local numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the tandem switch serving its area. In some rural areas, this might not be available. So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least get one to serve its area. While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a switch, that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway. At least one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote rent a call agent service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere, passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN. So the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks into the local central office. The VoIP side of the gateway then feeds the subscribers. I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type of service? Would it help anyone meet the unsubsidized competitor requirement? Thanks... -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
At 2/16/2012 07:01 PM, Kevin Sullivan wrote: I don't know enough about the CLEC stuff to say for sure, but that sounds interesting. Would that let you get local DID's for VoIP? Yes. Numbers are given to CLECs, so you'd create a CLEC or team up with an existing CLEC that doesn't yet serve your area, and then could pull phone number blocks from NANPA. Kevin - Original Message - From: Fred R. Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:57 PM Subject: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be subsidized to provide broadband unless there is an unsubsidized competitor who provides both voice and data service. Jack Unger has written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it to be unsubsidized competition, wherein the data provider needn't be the voice provider. But there's no guarantee that the FCC (currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action. A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP. It need not be a certificated CLEC. However, to get the VoIP service and local numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the tandem switch serving its area. In some rural areas, this might not be available. So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least get one to serve its area. While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a switch, that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway. At least one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote rent a call agent service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere, passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN. So the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks into the local central office. The VoIP side of the gateway then feeds the subscribers. I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type of service? Would it help anyone meet the unsubsidized competitor requirement? Thanks... -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor
Seems like interesting idea. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Fred Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 9:29 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor At 2/16/2012 07:01 PM, Kevin Sullivan wrote: I don't know enough about the CLEC stuff to say for sure, but that sounds interesting. Would that let you get local DID's for VoIP? Yes. Numbers are given to CLECs, so you'd create a CLEC or team up with an existing CLEC that doesn't yet serve your area, and then could pull phone number blocks from NANPA. Kevin - Original Message - From: Fred R. Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 1:57 PM Subject: [WISPA] Low-cost CLEC market entry approach for unsubsidized competitor The current FCC rules per November's CAF order allow ILECs to be subsidized to provide broadband unless there is an unsubsidized competitor who provides both voice and data service. Jack Unger has written an excellent petition to the FCC to change that to allow it to be unsubsidized competition, wherein the data provider needn't be the voice provider. But there's no guarantee that the FCC (currently down to three seated Commissioners) will take such action. A WISP can provide the needed voice service via VoIP. It need not be a certificated CLEC. However, to get the VoIP service and local numbers, it still needs a CLEC with a connection to (at minimum) the tandem switch serving its area. In some rural areas, this might not be available. So the WISP might need to create a CLEC, or at least get one to serve its area. While the traditional approach to starting a CLEC requires a switch, that rather costly item, which a lot of ISPs don't want to have to manage, can be finessed by using a remote gateway. At least one CLEC I'm working with offers a remote rent a call agent service, where there Class 4/5 call agent, which is equipped with Signaling System 7 (a big expense), can serve gateways anywhere, passing signaling (H.248) across the Internet or, ideally, a VPN. So the rural CLEC just has a media gateway and SBC, and orders trunks into the local central office. The VoIP side of the gateway then feeds the subscribers. I'm trying to assess whether it's worth anyone's pursuing to set this up as an offering for WISPs. Does anyone see a market for this type of service? Would it help anyone meet the unsubsidized competitor requirement? Thanks... -- Fred Goldsteink1io fgoldstein at ionary.com ionary Consulting http://www.ionary.com/ +1 617 795 2701 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
