Re: [WISPA] Mobility and Roaming was: Wifi outperforms Cellular and Wimax
We have hot spot roaming agreements with some of our local competitors. It's not the full monty you're describing, but it does mean that a subscriber on competitor A can log onto my network without paying any additional fees and vice versa. Right now we don't do any settlement because it's not worth it-just saying we can do it helps each of us enough to make it worthwhile. Chuck On Mar 6, 2009, at 10:23 PM, John Scrivner wrote: On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Blair Davis the...@wmwisp.net wrote: This is an interesting idea But, different operating frequency's, different proprietary equipment, I'm not sure it is practical. One of my 'neighbors' uses Canopy on 900MHz. Another is using Trango on 900MHz, I think. Another is 2.4GHz 802.11b/g. I use 2.4GHz, some b/g, some proprietary, some 900MHz proprietary, 5.8GHz Netstream... The list goes on... That is just another symptom of the problem. This group refuses to standardize on anything. Congrats when we all innovate ourselves into obscurity. Without standardization we will never have roaming or mobility. Are we really all still so small-minded as to think we can survive as little islands of innovators without integrating standards based roaming and mobility as part of the systems we all deploy going forward? What is your long term goal? To be a stop-gap until the future Rural Broadband Act of 20XX where the government finally runs a fiber to every place where there is a phone line and a power service? It will happen. mobile users go with a cell carrier and accept the high costs and low speeds. Until 2011 when I predict the cellular carriers will be reporting more wireless broadband subs than the total WISP industry marketshare combined. Mobility and roaming are not just neat toys. They are THE market differentiators for wireless broadband and this group largely has their collective head in the sand. Patrick Leary got it for a while and then for some reason un learned the facts. I certainly hope I am wrong so you guys can all make me buy you a beer someday when I am then found to be mentally deficient. Something tells me this group simply chooses not to look at the future in a realistic way. I genuinely hope I am wrong. I guess the questions I have for this group is, Why not accept that I may be right? What harm is there in attempting to build mobility and roaming into our networks around standards? Would this not simply add more value to our networks? Scriv John Scrivner wrote: Sadly WISPs have dragged their feet in development of true mobility and roaming. These features are the true differentiators of wireless broadband over DSL or DOCSIS. The cellular industry is more quickly adapting to the need to move to an IP centric platform for their mobile voice/data systems than we are in recognizing the compelling desire of everyone to have everything available to them everywhere with mobility. Land lines are going away and wireless MOBILE phones are increasing in quantity. WISPs may well lose out in the end if they do not band together to form interoperability standards for mobile IP, VoIP, roaming, etc. Last I checked there is not a single WISPA member network out there which is fully mobile with integrated roaming with another operator. Until WISPs do this they are doomed to a future of a decreasing position in the future of broadband industry market share. I predict that total customer counts served via traditional WISPs will max within 18 months and then down turn if we do not address the issues of roaming and mobility. If any of you have built a truly good mobility roaming gateway solution which allows for WISPs to tie their networks together and offer mobility then I welcome some feedback on the subject. What about truly mobile and roaming capable voice services over IP? Anyone out there ever build the equivalent of the ASN gateway for our networks? I am ready to start negotiating connection to this and right now we do not even have access to anything to connect to. Scriv On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Scott Parsons sc...@e-zy.net wrote: This was very interesting: http://www.muniwireless.com/2009/02/03/muni-wifi-outperforms-cellular-and-wi max/ Way to go WISPS! Scott WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] Mobility and Roaming was: Wifi outperforms Cellular and Wimax
On Fri, 2009-03-06 at 19:12 -0600, John Scrivner wrote: Sadly WISPs have dragged their feet in development of true mobility and roaming. There are many reasons for this, some of which make roaming a near impossibility. I have some customers who are doing some things that are very near to one meaning of the term mobility. If you are referring to the ability to take a device freely from one network to another, then there are ways to accomplish this, given certain criteria are met. If you are referring to Mobile IP, then that is easily accomplished (well, I guess it depends on how easily is defined). I have helped a couple of customers build out networks that accomplish both of the above scenarios. These features are the true differentiators of wireless broadband over DSL or DOCSIS. Yes, indeed! The cellular industry is more quickly adapting to the need to move to an IP centric platform for their mobile voice/data systems than we are in recognizing the compelling desire of everyone to have everything available to them everywhere with mobility. There are a multitude of reasons for this, too. Not the least of which is available capital. With the right amount of money, I can build exactly the same network. Another is the junk spectrum we all use, which the cellular companies are not burdened with. IPV6, once widely deployed, will make this easier, too. In fact, the IPv6 standard was developed with mobility in mind. Land lines are going away and wireless MOBILE phones are increasing in quantity. WISPs may well lose out in the end if they do not band together to form interoperability standards for mobile IP, VoIP, roaming, etc. There are several problems to address to make this happen. First, as I already stated, IPv6 makes many of these problems go away. Secondly, what network technology do we decide on? I mean, you have 802.11x, Canopy, Trango, Alvarion and a host of others that are not in any way compatible. Even supposing you pick a standard such as 802.11x (it is, after all, more widely used than most other non-standard protocols), there are problems that come with this set of protocols that are difficult, if not impossible, to overcome. Even at the link layer, it is far too slow to be called mobile just in terms of switching from tower to tower (ap to ap is abetter description). I'm not sure you'd ever convince Canopy WISPs to use 802.11 any quicker than you'd convince 802.11 users to switch to Canopy. Last I checked there is not a single WISPA member network out there which is fully mobile with integrated roaming with another operator. There is at least one of my customers who is a WISPA member AND has partnership agreements with 2 other WISPs. The system we have built uses 802.11a/b/g (all three, actually), RADIUS for auth and we have a mobile IP solution available for those customers who have need of such a solution (it is an add-on pay service). I am under NDA with one of the partners in this group and I cannot give names, but perhaps that person/company will step up and respond. If any of you have built a truly good mobility roaming gateway solution which allows for WISPs to tie their networks together and offer mobility then I welcome some feedback on the subject. I've shared as much as I am able. Suffice it to say that there are some networks out there that are offering the kind of advanced services you are describing. The big issue is interoperability of gear. That has to be in place first, then the rest can be built. What about truly mobile and roaming capable voice services over IP? Take a look at my blog. I have done some really neat things in the past with mobile IP services. Some of these are ongoing as we speak. Anyone out there ever build the equivalent of the ASN gateway for our networks? I am ready to start negotiating connection to this and right now we do not even have access to anything to connect to. The problems are numerous. Building a scalable solution that will fit multiple operators is a real challenge. Some of the challenges will potentially require you and your proposed partner to make significant network design changes. If you have an interest in such a project, let's get together (we can meet in Cape sometime) and see what we can come up with. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List:
Re: [WISPA] Mobility and Roaming was: Wifi outperforms Cellular and Wimax
The problems are numerous. Building a scalable solution that will fit multiple operators is a real challenge. Some of the challenges will potentially require you and your proposed partner to make significant network design changes. If you have an interest in such a project, let's get together (we can meet in Cape sometime) and see what we can come up with. I was actually thinking about you some when I wrote this. You and I had discussed how you had built some of the earliest working parts of what I have been describing. I would love to brainstorm on some of this with you in more detail at some time. The sad part is that I see little incentive to build this as few WISPs have any real desire to build interoperable, roaming capable, mobile IP network services as I have described. I think the problem is less about the spectrum, technical, platform and financial barriers than it is about the lack of interest to actually make it happen from the majority WISP perspective. I have little doubt we CAN do it. I just doubt anyone really WANTS to do it. Maybe a few will hit us offlist who wish to attempt to build this next generation mobile WISP network and we can put together a work group to build it. Scriv WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Mobility and Roaming was: Wifi outperforms Cellular and Wimax
Sadly WISPs have dragged their feet in development of true mobility and roaming. These features are the true differentiators of wireless broadband over DSL or DOCSIS. The cellular industry is more quickly adapting to the need to move to an IP centric platform for their mobile voice/data systems than we are in recognizing the compelling desire of everyone to have everything available to them everywhere with mobility. Land lines are going away and wireless MOBILE phones are increasing in quantity. WISPs may well lose out in the end if they do not band together to form interoperability standards for mobile IP, VoIP, roaming, etc. Last I checked there is not a single WISPA member network out there which is fully mobile with integrated roaming with another operator. Until WISPs do this they are doomed to a future of a decreasing position in the future of broadband industry market share. I predict that total customer counts served via traditional WISPs will max within 18 months and then down turn if we do not address the issues of roaming and mobility. If any of you have built a truly good mobility roaming gateway solution which allows for WISPs to tie their networks together and offer mobility then I welcome some feedback on the subject. What about truly mobile and roaming capable voice services over IP? Anyone out there ever build the equivalent of the ASN gateway for our networks? I am ready to start negotiating connection to this and right now we do not even have access to anything to connect to. Scriv On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Scott Parsons sc...@e-zy.net wrote: This was very interesting: http://www.muniwireless.com/2009/02/03/muni-wifi-outperforms-cellular-and-wi max/ Way to go WISPS! Scott WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Mobility and Roaming was: Wifi outperforms Cellular and Wimax
This is an interesting idea But, different operating frequency's, different proprietary equipment, I'm not sure it is practical. One of my 'neighbors' uses Canopy on 900MHz. Another is using Trango on 900MHz, I think. Another is 2.4GHz 802.11b/g. I use 2.4GHz, some b/g, some proprietary, some 900MHz proprietary, 5.8GHz Netstream... The list goes on... mobile users go with a cell carrier and accept the high costs and low speeds. John Scrivner wrote: Sadly WISPs have dragged their feet in development of true mobility and roaming. These features are the true differentiators of wireless broadband over DSL or DOCSIS. The cellular industry is more quickly adapting to the need to move to an IP centric platform for their mobile voice/data systems than we are in recognizing the compelling desire of everyone to have everything available to them everywhere with mobility. Land lines are going away and wireless MOBILE phones are increasing in quantity. WISPs may well lose out in the end if they do not band together to form interoperability standards for mobile IP, VoIP, roaming, etc. Last I checked there is not a single WISPA member network out there which is fully mobile with integrated roaming with another operator. Until WISPs do this they are doomed to a future of a decreasing position in the future of broadband industry market share. I predict that total customer counts served via traditional WISPs will max within 18 months and then down turn if we do not address the issues of roaming and mobility. If any of you have built a truly good mobility roaming gateway solution which allows for WISPs to tie their networks together and offer mobility then I welcome some feedback on the subject. What about truly mobile and roaming capable voice services over IP? Anyone out there ever build the equivalent of the ASN gateway for our networks? I am ready to start negotiating connection to this and right now we do not even have access to anything to connect to. Scriv On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Scott Parsons sc...@e-zy.net wrote: This was very interesting: http://www.muniwireless.com/2009/02/03/muni-wifi-outperforms-cellular-and-wi max/ Way to go WISPS! Scott WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Mobility and Roaming was: Wifi outperforms Cellular and Wimax
On Fri, Mar 6, 2009 at 8:50 PM, Blair Davis the...@wmwisp.net wrote: This is an interesting idea But, different operating frequency's, different proprietary equipment, I'm not sure it is practical. One of my 'neighbors' uses Canopy on 900MHz. Another is using Trango on 900MHz, I think. Another is 2.4GHz 802.11b/g. I use 2.4GHz, some b/g, some proprietary, some 900MHz proprietary, 5.8GHz Netstream... The list goes on... That is just another symptom of the problem. This group refuses to standardize on anything. Congrats when we all innovate ourselves into obscurity. Without standardization we will never have roaming or mobility. Are we really all still so small-minded as to think we can survive as little islands of innovators without integrating standards based roaming and mobility as part of the systems we all deploy going forward? What is your long term goal? To be a stop-gap until the future Rural Broadband Act of 20XX where the government finally runs a fiber to every place where there is a phone line and a power service? It will happen. mobile users go with a cell carrier and accept the high costs and low speeds. Until 2011 when I predict the cellular carriers will be reporting more wireless broadband subs than the total WISP industry marketshare combined. Mobility and roaming are not just neat toys. They are THE market differentiators for wireless broadband and this group largely has their collective head in the sand. Patrick Leary got it for a while and then for some reason un learned the facts. I certainly hope I am wrong so you guys can all make me buy you a beer someday when I am then found to be mentally deficient. Something tells me this group simply chooses not to look at the future in a realistic way. I genuinely hope I am wrong. I guess the questions I have for this group is, Why not accept that I may be right? What harm is there in attempting to build mobility and roaming into our networks around standards? Would this not simply add more value to our networks? Scriv John Scrivner wrote: Sadly WISPs have dragged their feet in development of true mobility and roaming. These features are the true differentiators of wireless broadband over DSL or DOCSIS. The cellular industry is more quickly adapting to the need to move to an IP centric platform for their mobile voice/data systems than we are in recognizing the compelling desire of everyone to have everything available to them everywhere with mobility. Land lines are going away and wireless MOBILE phones are increasing in quantity. WISPs may well lose out in the end if they do not band together to form interoperability standards for mobile IP, VoIP, roaming, etc. Last I checked there is not a single WISPA member network out there which is fully mobile with integrated roaming with another operator. Until WISPs do this they are doomed to a future of a decreasing position in the future of broadband industry market share. I predict that total customer counts served via traditional WISPs will max within 18 months and then down turn if we do not address the issues of roaming and mobility. If any of you have built a truly good mobility roaming gateway solution which allows for WISPs to tie their networks together and offer mobility then I welcome some feedback on the subject. What about truly mobile and roaming capable voice services over IP? Anyone out there ever build the equivalent of the ASN gateway for our networks? I am ready to start negotiating connection to this and right now we do not even have access to anything to connect to. Scriv On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:44 AM, Scott Parsons sc...@e-zy.net wrote: This was very interesting: http://www.muniwireless.com/2009/02/03/muni-wifi-outperforms-cellular-and-wi max/ Way to go WISPS! Scott WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives:
