Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-05 Thread Leon D. Zetekoff
You don't need vlans but helps in keeping voice and data separate. but what is 
needed is qos. Make sure that is setup correctly. Even with vlans you should 
have it. 

Leon

Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 2, 2014, at 9:03 AM, wi...@mncomm.com wrote:
 
 OK, I will. Right now its on my remote techs bench with a Cat5e cable and a 
 switch between the 2 devices. Where this will be going is a farmers elevator 
 site 150 feet between the 2 buildings using UBNT NSM5 radios, excellent 
 quality. Right now they are using 5 VoIP NEC phones at the remote site, plus 
 the same link is carrying their data needs as well, for 5 PCs. I didn’t 
 build separate VLANs as it is a very small network. Regardless I cannot get 
 these to work 10 feet to each other over cable. Voice works great. I will 
 have my tech put together what he has done. He has several hours into it. 
 Usually we wouldn’t dive into stuff too deep, but this customer also hosts a 
 major site for us using their grain leg
 
 thanks
 heith
 
 -Original Message- 
 From: Nathan Anderson
 Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 8:52 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip
 
 On Monday, March 31, 2014 7:04 AM, wi...@mncomm.com  wrote:
 
 So, the scenario would be the CO goes into a gateway device to convert to
 digital, goes over the LAN to the other gateway device. That device hooks
 up to the fax machine. If someone has done this before can you share the
 products you may have used? The products we have say they will work this
 way, but no luck, just voice transmission. I may have a bad device as
 well.
 
 If you are talking about a private point-to-point wireless link shot between 
 two buildings across a parking lot or whatever, with excellent link quality 
 characteristics and low jitter and latency, there is no reason that I can 
 think of why moving the fax machine over wouldn't just work.  Perhaps you 
 could share with us the following:
 
 1. Model of the Grandstream gateways in question.
 2. How you have the gateways configured (e.g., codec being used and such).
 3. What equipment you are using to do the wireless shot.
 4. Average throughput, latency, and jitter across that link.
 5. Whether the link is for phone use only, or is combined voice and data.
 6. ...if combined, whether any kind of QoS is being employed to promote 
 voice transmission ahead of data.
 
 ...and, most importantly...
 
 7. What exactly happens when you try to send or receive a fax over the 
 gateway devices.
 
 A vague it doesn't work description never helped anybody solve anything. 
 :-)  Give us details.  How does it fail, exactly?  How far along does it 
 get?  Is it able to transmit a partial page and then the connection drops? 
 Or can it not even complete the handshake with the other fax machine?  If it 
 works for voice, I very much doubt you have a bad device, unless it is a 
 software/firmware issue on the device(s).  If the device was physically bad, 
 I suspect the defect would present itself in other ways as well.
 
 General things to try out and to look out for:
 
 If you are using some fancy, efficient voice codec like G.729, turn that 
 crap off.  Limit both gateways to negotiate G.711u with each other only.
 
 If they have a T.38 option, make sure it is either enabled on both sides, or 
 disabled on both sides...if there is a mismatch, some SIP stacks behave very 
 badly if/when their re-INVITE to T.38 is rejected by the other peer.
 
 If the gateway devices support T.38 and it happens to be enabled, try 
 turning it off.  The T.38 spec is so vague as to often be useless, and there 
 can be interop problems even between two identical devices (I swear that 
 sometimes vendors don't test their own products...it's infuriating).  And on 
 a private, short-haul link like that, I would sure think that using G.711u 
 PCM for both voice and fax transmission would be sufficient and pose no 
 problems.
 
 On the other hand, if latency and jitter are sometimes a problem and the 
 quality of the link is in doubt, and you haven't been using T.38, then by 
 all means give T.38 a try, assuming your Grandstream devices can act as T.38 
 gateways (it's not enough for them to have T.38 passthrough support, they 
 must have GATEWAY functionality).  Once you finally get past all of the 
 interop issues, T.38 really can work magic for FoIP on uncontrolled IP 
 links.
 
 If you are using T.38 (or, heck, even if you aren't using T.38), try 
 forcibly lowering the maximum modulation rate that their fax machine will 
 attempt to handshake to the other side with.  It is still (sadly) incredibly 
 common for most production T.38 implementations these days to be based off 
 of version 0, which does not include support for gatewaying V.34, only 
 V.17.  If they have a Super G3 fax machine, the T.38 gateway feature 
 should in theory just ignore the handshake and not even engage and try to 
 re-INVITE to T.38, but you never know...could be buggy.  Or if you aren't

Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-05 Thread Leon D. Zetekoff
What I of for faxing is use vitelitys fax service. It comes in to my email as 
PDF case closed. Outbound I got fax working from my machine or I send it via 
the Vitelity fax portal. 

Sent from my iPhone

 On Apr 2, 2014, at 6:18 PM, wi...@mncomm.com wrote:
 
 I havent got my tech to log what he has done so far. Lines will connect to 
 and from remote fax machines, no handshake apparently, no talky over the 
 devices. I will be more descriptive shortly. Sucks that he is four hours 
 away and a rookie compared to me with telephony, not that I am much better 
 haha
 
 -Original Message- 
 From: Fred Goldstein
 Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 5:08 PM
 To: wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip
 
 On 4/2/2014 5:24 PM, Nathan Anderson wrote:
 On Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:55 AM, Fred Goldstein  wrote:
 
 But in addition to that, I STRONGLY recommend a separate VLAN for the
 voice-grade channels.  With priority, or reserved bandwidth. TCP/IP in
 normal operation manages its flow rate by having packets thrown away;
 that's why the 1G LAN port on your PC doesn't blast a whole file at 1G
 into a 2M link.  It uses packet loss as a signal. TCP applications
 retransmit and actual human voice is intelligible with some gaps, but
 modems, including fax, are very unhappy.
 Do note that RTP is implemented over UDP, not TCP, so in VoIP, a dropped 
 audio packet is a lost audio packet, not a delayed or even out-of-order 
 audio packet (although those other two things can happen...they just 
 aren't a result of retransmits, or at least not a retransmit initiated by 
 Layer 4).
 I guess my grammar was a bit rough there!  So you're of course right.
 TCP applications retransmit.  (period) Actual human voice (which doesn't
 retransmit, as it can't wait) is intelligible some gaps.  Modes,
 however, including fax, are very unhappy with gaps.
 
 
 And stressing Nathan's previous note (*what* doesn't work?), this may
 be one of those *rare* occasions when a video (YouTube anyone?) might
 actually help.  Although the audio alone is more important. If we could
 (see and) hear the call being dialed by the originating fax, hear what
 the ring sequence sounded like, and heard the response, with the speaker
 belching the CNG tone all along, it might help identify the problem.
 
 But really, fax and VoIP don't get along very well unless you really
 tune the VoIP network up to support it.
 
 And I know how some faxes are picky.  My office fax line sat here
 virtually unused for years, but my wife needs to receive faxes
 regularly.  Her fax is on a Comcast PacketCable (they call it VoIP but
 it's really managed VuIP) line that is shared with her office phone and
 answering machine.  My fax (both are Brothers) can send hers a fax.  The
 answering machine gives its spiel, starts to listen, then the fax hears
 CNG and cuts off the answering machine and sends modem tones.  Just like
 it's supposed to work.  But the fancy new fax server system at the
 courthouse just won't send to it.  (Nor will some sizeable fraction of
 other machines.) It will send to mine, which isn't shared with an
 answering machine, but not one that is.  Picky picky.  Fax is like that.
 
 -- 
  Fred R. Goldstein  k1io fred at interisle.net
  Interisle Consulting Group
  +1 617 795 2701
 
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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-02 Thread wispa
OK, I will. Right now its on my remote techs bench with a Cat5e cable and a 
switch between the 2 devices. Where this will be going is a farmers elevator 
site 150 feet between the 2 buildings using UBNT NSM5 radios, excellent 
quality. Right now they are using 5 VoIP NEC phones at the remote site, plus 
the same link is carrying their data needs as well, for 5 PCs. I didn’t 
build separate VLANs as it is a very small network. Regardless I cannot get 
these to work 10 feet to each other over cable. Voice works great. I will 
have my tech put together what he has done. He has several hours into it. 
Usually we wouldn’t dive into stuff too deep, but this customer also hosts a 
major site for us using their grain leg

thanks
heith

-Original Message- 
From: Nathan Anderson
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 8:52 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

On Monday, March 31, 2014 7:04 AM, wi...@mncomm.com  wrote:

 So, the scenario would be the CO goes into a gateway device to convert to
 digital, goes over the LAN to the other gateway device. That device hooks
 up to the fax machine. If someone has done this before can you share the
 products you may have used? The products we have say they will work this
 way, but no luck, just voice transmission. I may have a bad device as
 well.

If you are talking about a private point-to-point wireless link shot between 
two buildings across a parking lot or whatever, with excellent link quality 
characteristics and low jitter and latency, there is no reason that I can 
think of why moving the fax machine over wouldn't just work.  Perhaps you 
could share with us the following:

1. Model of the Grandstream gateways in question.
2. How you have the gateways configured (e.g., codec being used and such).
3. What equipment you are using to do the wireless shot.
4. Average throughput, latency, and jitter across that link.
5. Whether the link is for phone use only, or is combined voice and data.
6. ...if combined, whether any kind of QoS is being employed to promote 
voice transmission ahead of data.

...and, most importantly...

7. What exactly happens when you try to send or receive a fax over the 
gateway devices.

A vague it doesn't work description never helped anybody solve anything. 
:-)  Give us details.  How does it fail, exactly?  How far along does it 
get?  Is it able to transmit a partial page and then the connection drops? 
Or can it not even complete the handshake with the other fax machine?  If it 
works for voice, I very much doubt you have a bad device, unless it is a 
software/firmware issue on the device(s).  If the device was physically bad, 
I suspect the defect would present itself in other ways as well.

General things to try out and to look out for:

If you are using some fancy, efficient voice codec like G.729, turn that 
crap off.  Limit both gateways to negotiate G.711u with each other only.

If they have a T.38 option, make sure it is either enabled on both sides, or 
disabled on both sides...if there is a mismatch, some SIP stacks behave very 
badly if/when their re-INVITE to T.38 is rejected by the other peer.

If the gateway devices support T.38 and it happens to be enabled, try 
turning it off.  The T.38 spec is so vague as to often be useless, and there 
can be interop problems even between two identical devices (I swear that 
sometimes vendors don't test their own products...it's infuriating).  And on 
a private, short-haul link like that, I would sure think that using G.711u 
PCM for both voice and fax transmission would be sufficient and pose no 
problems.

On the other hand, if latency and jitter are sometimes a problem and the 
quality of the link is in doubt, and you haven't been using T.38, then by 
all means give T.38 a try, assuming your Grandstream devices can act as T.38 
gateways (it's not enough for them to have T.38 passthrough support, they 
must have GATEWAY functionality).  Once you finally get past all of the 
interop issues, T.38 really can work magic for FoIP on uncontrolled IP 
links.

If you are using T.38 (or, heck, even if you aren't using T.38), try 
forcibly lowering the maximum modulation rate that their fax machine will 
attempt to handshake to the other side with.  It is still (sadly) incredibly 
common for most production T.38 implementations these days to be based off 
of version 0, which does not include support for gatewaying V.34, only 
V.17.  If they have a Super G3 fax machine, the T.38 gateway feature 
should in theory just ignore the handshake and not even engage and try to 
re-INVITE to T.38, but you never know...could be buggy.  Or if you aren't 
using T.38, V.34 modulation rates could be more sensitive to timing and 
jitter issues.  So limit the fax machine to 14400bps or 9600bps.

Hope this helps,

-- 
Nathan Anderson
First Step Internet, LLC
nath...@fsr.com
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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-02 Thread Fred Goldstein
On 4/2/2014 9:03 AM, wi...@mncomm.com wrote:
 OK, I will. Right now its on my remote techs bench with a Cat5e cable and a
 switch between the 2 devices. Where this will be going is a farmers elevator
 site 150 feet between the 2 buildings using UBNT NSM5 radios, excellent
 quality. Right now they are using 5 VoIP NEC phones at the remote site, plus
 the same link is carrying their data needs as well, for 5 PCs. I didn’t
 build separate VLANs as it is a very small network. Regardless I cannot get
 these to work 10 feet to each other over cable. Voice works great. I will
 have my tech put together what he has done. He has several hours into it.
 Usually we wouldn’t dive into stuff too deep, but this customer also hosts a
 major site for us using their grain leg


I'll second Nathan's advice, stressing that you MUST set it to G.711, 
not any kind of compressed encoding. There's voice, and there's 
voice-grade.  The PSTN is voice-grade, which means it carries voice and 
other things, like modems, that work across a channel designed for voice 
but capable of carrying other signals in the 100-3700 Hz range. Cellular 
and VoIP often compress the voice down using a codec that leaves actual 
human speech intelligible to a human ear, but doesn't support modems 
(like the ones in fax).  So even if the voice sounds good, it might just 
be a lower-rate codec recreating voice, not transmitting voice-grade 
signals.

But in addition to that, I STRONGLY recommend a separate VLAN for the 
voice-grade channels.  With priority, or reserved bandwidth. TCP/IP in 
normal operation manages its flow rate by having packets thrown away; 
that's why the 1G LAN port on your PC doesn't blast a whole file at 1G 
into a 2M link.  It uses packet loss as a signal. TCP applications 
retransmit and actual human voice is intelligible with some gaps, but 
modems, including fax, are very unhappy.  AirMAX might also come in 
handy here, if the fax machine's ATA can set the TOS field, but I 
haven't tried it myself.

 -Original Message-
 From: Nathan Anderson
 Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2014 8:52 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

 On Monday, March 31, 2014 7:04 AM, wi...@mncomm.com  wrote:

 So, the scenario would be the CO goes into a gateway device to convert to
 digital, goes over the LAN to the other gateway device. That device hooks
 up to the fax machine. If someone has done this before can you share the
 products you may have used? The products we have say they will work this
 way, but no luck, just voice transmission. I may have a bad device as
 well.
 If you are talking about a private point-to-point wireless link shot between
 two buildings across a parking lot or whatever, with excellent link quality
 characteristics and low jitter and latency, there is no reason that I can
 think of why moving the fax machine over wouldn't just work.  Perhaps you
 could share with us the following:

 1. Model of the Grandstream gateways in question.
 2. How you have the gateways configured (e.g., codec being used and such).
 3. What equipment you are using to do the wireless shot.
 4. Average throughput, latency, and jitter across that link.
 5. Whether the link is for phone use only, or is combined voice and data.
 6. ...if combined, whether any kind of QoS is being employed to promote
 voice transmission ahead of data.

 ...and, most importantly...

 7. What exactly happens when you try to send or receive a fax over the
 gateway devices.

 A vague it doesn't work description never helped anybody solve anything.
 :-)  Give us details.  How does it fail, exactly?  How far along does it
 get?  Is it able to transmit a partial page and then the connection drops?
 Or can it not even complete the handshake with the other fax machine?  If it
 works for voice, I very much doubt you have a bad device, unless it is a
 software/firmware issue on the device(s).  If the device was physically bad,
 I suspect the defect would present itself in other ways as well.

 General things to try out and to look out for:

 If you are using some fancy, efficient voice codec like G.729, turn that
 crap off.  Limit both gateways to negotiate G.711u with each other only.

 If they have a T.38 option, make sure it is either enabled on both sides, or
 disabled on both sides...if there is a mismatch, some SIP stacks behave very
 badly if/when their re-INVITE to T.38 is rejected by the other peer.

 If the gateway devices support T.38 and it happens to be enabled, try
 turning it off.  The T.38 spec is so vague as to often be useless, and there
 can be interop problems even between two identical devices (I swear that
 sometimes vendors don't test their own products...it's infuriating).  And on
 a private, short-haul link like that, I would sure think that using G.711u
 PCM for both voice and fax transmission would be sufficient and pose no
 problems.

 On the other hand, if latency and jitter are sometimes a problem and the
 quality

Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-02 Thread Nathan Anderson
On Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:04 AM, wi...@mncomm.com  wrote:

 Regardless I cannot get these to work 10 feet to each other over cable.
 Voice works great.

Again, *what* doesn't work?  You haven't described the symptoms of not 
working to us at all.  We can only make assumptions without exact details of 
the problem.  How far does it get?  Are you losing pages?  Parts of pages?  
Does it not even begin the transmission?  Do you have the speaker enabled on 
the fax machine and can you hear the attempted handshake with the other side?  
Do you note any differences in how it sounds going between the VoIP gateways 
and when it is plugged straight into an FXS provided to you directly from the 
CO?  What error message does the fax machine spit out at you, if it does in 
fact spit one out?

-- 
Nathan Anderson
First Step Internet, LLC
nath...@fsr.com
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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-02 Thread Nathan Anderson
On Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:55 AM, Fred Goldstein  wrote:

 But in addition to that, I STRONGLY recommend a separate VLAN for the
 voice-grade channels.  With priority, or reserved bandwidth. TCP/IP in
 normal operation manages its flow rate by having packets thrown away;
 that's why the 1G LAN port on your PC doesn't blast a whole file at 1G
 into a 2M link.  It uses packet loss as a signal. TCP applications
 retransmit and actual human voice is intelligible with some gaps, but
 modems, including fax, are very unhappy.

Do note that RTP is implemented over UDP, not TCP, so in VoIP, a dropped audio 
packet is a lost audio packet, not a delayed or even out-of-order audio packet 
(although those other two things can happen...they just aren't a result of 
retransmits, or at least not a retransmit initiated by Layer 4).

-- 
Nathan Anderson
First Step Internet, LLC
nath...@fsr.com
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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-02 Thread Fred Goldstein
On 4/2/2014 5:24 PM, Nathan Anderson wrote:
 On Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:55 AM, Fred Goldstein  wrote:

 But in addition to that, I STRONGLY recommend a separate VLAN for the
 voice-grade channels.  With priority, or reserved bandwidth. TCP/IP in
 normal operation manages its flow rate by having packets thrown away;
 that's why the 1G LAN port on your PC doesn't blast a whole file at 1G
 into a 2M link.  It uses packet loss as a signal. TCP applications
 retransmit and actual human voice is intelligible with some gaps, but
 modems, including fax, are very unhappy.
 Do note that RTP is implemented over UDP, not TCP, so in VoIP, a dropped 
 audio packet is a lost audio packet, not a delayed or even out-of-order audio 
 packet (although those other two things can happen...they just aren't a 
 result of retransmits, or at least not a retransmit initiated by Layer 4).

I guess my grammar was a bit rough there!  So you're of course right.  
TCP applications retransmit.  (period) Actual human voice (which doesn't 
retransmit, as it can't wait) is intelligible some gaps.  Modes, 
however, including fax, are very unhappy with gaps.


And stressing Nathan's previous note (*what* doesn't work?), this may 
be one of those *rare* occasions when a video (YouTube anyone?) might 
actually help.  Although the audio alone is more important. If we could 
(see and) hear the call being dialed by the originating fax, hear what 
the ring sequence sounded like, and heard the response, with the speaker 
belching the CNG tone all along, it might help identify the problem.

But really, fax and VoIP don't get along very well unless you really 
tune the VoIP network up to support it.

And I know how some faxes are picky.  My office fax line sat here 
virtually unused for years, but my wife needs to receive faxes 
regularly.  Her fax is on a Comcast PacketCable (they call it VoIP but 
it's really managed VuIP) line that is shared with her office phone and 
answering machine.  My fax (both are Brothers) can send hers a fax.  The 
answering machine gives its spiel, starts to listen, then the fax hears 
CNG and cuts off the answering machine and sends modem tones.  Just like 
it's supposed to work.  But the fancy new fax server system at the 
courthouse just won't send to it.  (Nor will some sizeable fraction of 
other machines.) It will send to mine, which isn't shared with an 
answering machine, but not one that is.  Picky picky.  Fax is like that.

-- 
  Fred R. Goldstein  k1io fred at interisle.net
  Interisle Consulting Group
  +1 617 795 2701

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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-02 Thread wispa
I havent got my tech to log what he has done so far. Lines will connect to 
and from remote fax machines, no handshake apparently, no talky over the 
devices. I will be more descriptive shortly. Sucks that he is four hours 
away and a rookie compared to me with telephony, not that I am much better 
haha

-Original Message- 
From: Fred Goldstein
Sent: Wednesday, April 02, 2014 5:08 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

On 4/2/2014 5:24 PM, Nathan Anderson wrote:
 On Wednesday, April 02, 2014 6:55 AM, Fred Goldstein  wrote:

 But in addition to that, I STRONGLY recommend a separate VLAN for the
 voice-grade channels.  With priority, or reserved bandwidth. TCP/IP in
 normal operation manages its flow rate by having packets thrown away;
 that's why the 1G LAN port on your PC doesn't blast a whole file at 1G
 into a 2M link.  It uses packet loss as a signal. TCP applications
 retransmit and actual human voice is intelligible with some gaps, but
 modems, including fax, are very unhappy.
 Do note that RTP is implemented over UDP, not TCP, so in VoIP, a dropped 
 audio packet is a lost audio packet, not a delayed or even out-of-order 
 audio packet (although those other two things can happen...they just 
 aren't a result of retransmits, or at least not a retransmit initiated by 
 Layer 4).

I guess my grammar was a bit rough there!  So you're of course right.
TCP applications retransmit.  (period) Actual human voice (which doesn't
retransmit, as it can't wait) is intelligible some gaps.  Modes,
however, including fax, are very unhappy with gaps.


And stressing Nathan's previous note (*what* doesn't work?), this may
be one of those *rare* occasions when a video (YouTube anyone?) might
actually help.  Although the audio alone is more important. If we could
(see and) hear the call being dialed by the originating fax, hear what
the ring sequence sounded like, and heard the response, with the speaker
belching the CNG tone all along, it might help identify the problem.

But really, fax and VoIP don't get along very well unless you really
tune the VoIP network up to support it.

And I know how some faxes are picky.  My office fax line sat here
virtually unused for years, but my wife needs to receive faxes
regularly.  Her fax is on a Comcast PacketCable (they call it VoIP but
it's really managed VuIP) line that is shared with her office phone and
answering machine.  My fax (both are Brothers) can send hers a fax.  The
answering machine gives its spiel, starts to listen, then the fax hears
CNG and cuts off the answering machine and sends modem tones.  Just like
it's supposed to work.  But the fancy new fax server system at the
courthouse just won't send to it.  (Nor will some sizeable fraction of
other machines.) It will send to mine, which isn't shared with an
answering machine, but not one that is.  Picky picky.  Fax is like that.

-- 
  Fred R. Goldstein  k1io fred at interisle.net
  Interisle Consulting Group
  +1 617 795 2701

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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-01 Thread Nick Olsen
I've seen pretty good luck with T38 for faxing over VOIP. Obviously, This 
only works for faxing. Not alarms..etc.

 Nick Olsen
Network Operations  (855) FLSPEED  x106




 From: wi...@mncomm.com
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 10:04 AM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip
   I have a customer that we installed an IP phone system for. They moved their 
office to a new building where the telco couldn't or wouldn't bring service to. 
So I have the PBX at their old location where the COs come in and we go over a 
wireless link to the new office where they use their internet and IP phones, 
and all works great.

 So their fax machine sits at their old location and they want it in their new 
location. They are not interested in doing Internet fax at this time, but I may 
have to introduce it again. A while ago we bought some Grandstream gateway 
devices. We have them configured correctly and they transmit and receive voice 
just fine, just no fax.

 So, the scenario would be the CO goes into a gateway device to convert to 
digital, goes over the LAN to the other gateway device. That device hooks up to 
the fax machine. If someone has done this before can you share the products you 
may have used? The products we have say they will work this way, but no luck, 
just voice transmission. I may have a bad device as well.

 Also, is there any internet fax services that allow users to use their 
existing fax machine? I know it's a little weird to ask that, but some people 
have a hard time with change using their PC to send faxes

 thanks
 heith
 mnwireless



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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-01 Thread Christopher Hair
Vitality’s Fax Enable product allows ATA with fax machine but they have a 
monthly minimum. FaxSipit is another company we have used that does Fax ATA 
services with no minimum. Both work well.

 

Chris

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of wi...@mncomm.com
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 10:04 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

 

I have a customer that we installed an IP phone system for. They moved their 
office to a new building where the telco couldn’t or wouldn’t bring service to. 
So I have the PBX at their old location where the COs come in and we go over a 
wireless link to the new office where they use their internet and IP phones, 
and all works great. 

 

So their fax machine sits at their old location and they want it in their new 
location. They are not interested in doing Internet fax at this time, but I may 
have to introduce it again. A while ago we bought some Grandstream gateway 
devices. We have them configured correctly and they transmit and receive voice 
just fine, just no fax.

 

So, the scenario would be the CO goes into a gateway device to convert to 
digital, goes over the LAN to the other gateway device. That device hooks up to 
the fax machine. If someone has done this before can you share the products you 
may have used? The products we have say they will work this way, but no luck, 
just voice transmission. I may have a bad device as well.

 

Also, is there any internet fax services that allow users to use their existing 
fax machine? I know it’s a little weird to ask that, but some people have a 
hard time with change using their PC to send faxes

 

thanks

heith

mnwireless

 

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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-01 Thread Nathan Anderson
On Monday, March 31, 2014 8:51 AM, l...@mwtcorp.net  wrote:

 I don't want to start a long thread about fax but --RANT

[...snip excellent fax rant...]

+1

-- 
Nathan Anderson
First Step Internet, LLC
nath...@fsr.com
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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-04-01 Thread Nathan Anderson
On Monday, March 31, 2014 7:04 AM, wi...@mncomm.com  wrote:

 So, the scenario would be the CO goes into a gateway device to convert to
 digital, goes over the LAN to the other gateway device. That device hooks
 up to the fax machine. If someone has done this before can you share the
 products you may have used? The products we have say they will work this
 way, but no luck, just voice transmission. I may have a bad device as
 well. 

If you are talking about a private point-to-point wireless link shot between 
two buildings across a parking lot or whatever, with excellent link quality 
characteristics and low jitter and latency, there is no reason that I can think 
of why moving the fax machine over wouldn't just work.  Perhaps you could 
share with us the following:

1. Model of the Grandstream gateways in question.
2. How you have the gateways configured (e.g., codec being used and such).
3. What equipment you are using to do the wireless shot.
4. Average throughput, latency, and jitter across that link.
5. Whether the link is for phone use only, or is combined voice and data.
6. ...if combined, whether any kind of QoS is being employed to promote voice 
transmission ahead of data.

...and, most importantly...

7. What exactly happens when you try to send or receive a fax over the gateway 
devices.

A vague it doesn't work description never helped anybody solve anything. :-)  
Give us details.  How does it fail, exactly?  How far along does it get?  Is it 
able to transmit a partial page and then the connection drops?  Or can it not 
even complete the handshake with the other fax machine?  If it works for voice, 
I very much doubt you have a bad device, unless it is a software/firmware 
issue on the device(s).  If the device was physically bad, I suspect the defect 
would present itself in other ways as well.

General things to try out and to look out for:

If you are using some fancy, efficient voice codec like G.729, turn that crap 
off.  Limit both gateways to negotiate G.711u with each other only.

If they have a T.38 option, make sure it is either enabled on both sides, or 
disabled on both sides...if there is a mismatch, some SIP stacks behave very 
badly if/when their re-INVITE to T.38 is rejected by the other peer.

If the gateway devices support T.38 and it happens to be enabled, try turning 
it off.  The T.38 spec is so vague as to often be useless, and there can be 
interop problems even between two identical devices (I swear that sometimes 
vendors don't test their own products...it's infuriating).  And on a private, 
short-haul link like that, I would sure think that using G.711u PCM for both 
voice and fax transmission would be sufficient and pose no problems.

On the other hand, if latency and jitter are sometimes a problem and the 
quality of the link is in doubt, and you haven't been using T.38, then by all 
means give T.38 a try, assuming your Grandstream devices can act as T.38 
gateways (it's not enough for them to have T.38 passthrough support, they must 
have GATEWAY functionality).  Once you finally get past all of the interop 
issues, T.38 really can work magic for FoIP on uncontrolled IP links.

If you are using T.38 (or, heck, even if you aren't using T.38), try forcibly 
lowering the maximum modulation rate that their fax machine will attempt to 
handshake to the other side with.  It is still (sadly) incredibly common for 
most production T.38 implementations these days to be based off of version 0, 
which does not include support for gatewaying V.34, only V.17.  If they have a 
Super G3 fax machine, the T.38 gateway feature should in theory just ignore 
the handshake and not even engage and try to re-INVITE to T.38, but you never 
know...could be buggy.  Or if you aren't using T.38, V.34 modulation rates 
could be more sensitive to timing and jitter issues.  So limit the fax machine 
to 14400bps or 9600bps.

Hope this helps,

-- 
Nathan Anderson
First Step Internet, LLC
nath...@fsr.com
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[WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-03-31 Thread wispa
I have a customer that we installed an IP phone system for. They moved their 
office to a new building where the telco couldn’t or wouldn’t bring service to. 
So I have the PBX at their old location where the COs come in and we go over a 
wireless link to the new office where they use their internet and IP phones, 
and all works great. 

So their fax machine sits at their old location and they want it in their new 
location. They are not interested in doing Internet fax at this time, but I may 
have to introduce it again. A while ago we bought some Grandstream gateway 
devices. We have them configured correctly and they transmit and receive voice 
just fine, just no fax.

So, the scenario would be the CO goes into a gateway device to convert to 
digital, goes over the LAN to the other gateway device. That device hooks up to 
the fax machine. If someone has done this before can you share the products you 
may have used? The products we have say they will work this way, but no luck, 
just voice transmission. I may have a bad device as well.

Also, is there any internet fax services that allow users to use their existing 
fax machine? I know it’s a little weird to ask that, but some people have a 
hard time with change using their PC to send faxes

thanks
heith
mnwireless
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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-03-31 Thread Mike Hammett
There's a company that has boxes that'll work even over a satellite connection. 
I forget their name. Google for satellite fax. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 
http://www.ics-il.com 

- Original Message -

From: wi...@mncomm.com 
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org 
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2014 9:03:51 AM 
Subject: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip 




I have a customer that we installed an IP phone system for. They moved their 
office to a new building where the telco couldn’t or wouldn’t bring service to. 
So I have the PBX at their old location where the COs come in and we go over a 
wireless link to the new office where they use their internet and IP phones, 
and all works great. 

So their fax machine sits at their old location and they want it in their new 
location. They are not interested in doing Internet fax at this time, but I may 
have to introduce it again. A while ago we bought some Grandstream gateway 
devices. We have them configured correctly and they transmit and receive voice 
just fine, just no fax. 

So, the scenario would be the CO goes into a gateway device to convert to 
digital, goes over the LAN to the other gateway device. That device hooks up to 
the fax machine. If someone has done this before can you share the products you 
may have used? The products we have say they will work this way, but no luck, 
just voice transmission. I may have a bad device as well. 

Also, is there any internet fax services that allow users to use their existing 
fax machine? I know it’s a little weird to ask that, but some people have a 
hard time with change using their PC to send faxes 

thanks 
heith 
mnwireless 

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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-03-31 Thread Darin Steffl
http://www.vitelity.com/services_vfax/


Works perfect. Order the Fax Enable device and it will allow the old fax
machine to function perfectly. You also get the benefit of fax-to-email
capability if they want it turned on. Unless they do a ton of faxes each
month, the standard per minute rates are the way to go.


On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 9:03 AM, wi...@mncomm.com wrote:

   I have a customer that we installed an IP phone system for. They moved
 their office to a new building where the telco couldn't or wouldn't bring
 service to. So I have the PBX at their old location where the COs come in
 and we go over a wireless link to the new office where they use their
 internet and IP phones, and all works great.

 So their fax machine sits at their old location and they want it in their
 new location. They are not interested in doing Internet fax at this time,
 but I may have to introduce it again. A while ago we bought some
 Grandstream gateway devices. We have them configured correctly and they
 transmit and receive voice just fine, just no fax.

 So, the scenario would be the CO goes into a gateway device to convert to
 digital, goes over the LAN to the other gateway device. That device hooks
 up to the fax machine. If someone has done this before can you share the
 products you may have used? The products we have say they will work this
 way, but no luck, just voice transmission. I may have a bad device as well.

 Also, is there any internet fax services that allow users to use their
 existing fax machine? I know it's a little weird to ask that, but some
 people have a hard time with change using their PC to send faxes

 thanks
 heith
 mnwireless


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-- 
Darin Steffl
Minnesota WiFi
www.mnwifi.com
507-634-WiFi
 http://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi Like us on
Facebookhttp://www.facebook.com/minnesotawifi
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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-03-31 Thread Fred Goldstein

On 3/31/2014 10:03 AM, wi...@mncomm.com wrote:
I have a customer that we installed an IP phone system for. They moved 
their office to a new building where the telco couldn't or wouldn't 
bring service to. So I have the PBX at their old location where the 
COs come in and we go over a wireless link to the new office where 
they use their internet and IP phones, and all works great.
So their fax machine sits at their old location and they want it in 
their new location. They are not interested in doing Internet fax at 
this time, but I may have to introduce it again. A while ago we bought 
some Grandstream gateway devices. We have them configured correctly 
and they transmit and receive voice just fine, just no fax.
So, the scenario would be the CO goes into a gateway device to convert 
to digital, goes over the LAN to the other gateway device. That device 
hooks up to the fax machine. If someone has done this before can you 
share the products you may have used? The products we have say they 
will work this way, but no luck, just voice transmission. I may have a 
bad device as well.
Also, is there any internet fax services that allow users to use their 
existing fax machine? I know it's a little weird to ask that, but some 
people have a hard time with change using their PC to send faxes





Which solution is best for the customer depends on how they use fax and 
how critical it is.


I just uploaded my FCC Comments on the ATT experiment, one which 
proposes that fax capabilities be lost.  I pointed out that fax is 
sometimes used for reasons that distinguish it from email: Security and 
privacy (no middle man server), knowledge of receipt (not just to a 
mailbox), and reliability (no servers, no attachments).  Internet fax is 
actually the worst of both worlds, putting fax in series with email.  So 
it's useful if you get the occasional fax from someone who can't scan 
documents otherwise, but it's not useful if you use fax the way 
pharmacies, doctors, and courts do.


Since VoIP doesn't support modems or fax, if they need real fax, they 
need a way to extend the signal (dial tone) to the new site. This 
can't just run over best efforts IP.  But there are systems that do 
the timing and buffering to enable TDM to be reliably emulated across a 
wireless link (I suggest using a high-priority VLAN and no public IP).  
We're using the RAD IPmux series. We're putting them in to replace T1s, 
for instance, to support fire department voting receivers (very quality 
critical) across Ethernet radios.  Not exactly cheap, but it's a nice 
tool.  They are available with different types of interfaces.


--
 Fred R. Goldstein  k1io fred at interisle.net
 Interisle Consulting Group
 +1 617 795 2701

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Re: [WISPA] OT Fax over Voip

2014-03-31 Thread lar
On Mon, 31 Mar 2014 11:09:31 -0400
  Fred Goldstein fgoldst...@ionary.com wrote:
 On 3/31/2014 10:03 AM, wi...@mncomm.com wrote:
 I have a customer that we installed an IP phone system for. They moved their 
office to a new building where the telco couldn't or wouldn't bring service 
to. 
--snip--
 
 
 Which solution is best for the customer depends on how they use fax and how 
critical it is.
 
 I just uploaded my FCC Comments on the ATT experiment, one which proposes 
that fax capabilities be lost.  I pointed out that fax is sometimes used for 
reasons that distinguish it from email: Security and privacy (no middle man 
server), knowledge of receipt (not just to a mailbox), and reliability (no 
servers, no attachments).

I don't want to start a long thread about fax but --RANT Fax over copper was 
never
either secure or private. The transmission always was fairly easy to intercept 
if
you were snooping on a particular individual/business. Plus, you have no idea 
who
walks up to the recipient fax machine which I maintain should disqualify it 
for both
the legal and medical communities. Some of the old time phone phreaks
used to have the CO automatically bridge lines to a cable pair that they had 
acquired
during call setup. (Hopefully they were all chased out of the system some time 
ago)
Fax is a loose standard and should have died out a decade ago. (IMHO) A 
peer-to-peer
encrypted, standards based system would have been the likely result and this 
silliness
about supporting analog fax would go away. /RANT That said both of the 
methods mentioned
in this thread work about as well as traditional copper which is less than 
100%. Even
on copper expect a few customer calls.


  Internet fax is actually the worst of both worlds, 
putting fax in series with email.  So it's useful if you get the occasional 
fax from someone who can't scan documents otherwise, but it's not useful if 
you use fax the way pharmacies, doctors, and courts do.
 
 Since VoIP doesn't support modems or fax, if they need real fax, they need a 
way to extend the signal (dial tone) to the new site. This can't just run 
over best efforts IP.  But there are systems that do the timing and 
buffering to enable TDM to be reliably emulated across a wireless link (I 
suggest using a high-priority VLAN and no public IP).  We're using the RAD 
IPmux series. We're putting them in to replace T1s, for instance, to support 
fire department voting receivers (very quality critical) across Ethernet 
radios.  Not exactly cheap, but it's a nice tool.  They are available with 
different types of interfaces.
 
 -- 
  Fred R. Goldstein  k1io fred at interisle.net
  Interisle Consulting Group
  +1 617 795 2701
 

Larry Ash
Network Administrator
Mountain West Telephone
123 W 1st St.
Casper, WY 82601
Office 307 233-8387
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