Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
We have hundreds of legacy 802.11a/g UBNT equipment deployed in Colorado and Costa Rica. In Colorado we offer 12Mbps/6Mbps service over 802.11g--it works great. We use NS2 and PS2 as AP, MT behind that to do things like QoS/routing. Latency does spike and is not consistent. We have seen no issues with hidden node or problems like that. The stuff just works and has for years. The newer AirMax stuff is very impressive. Only a small deployment in Colorado so far. Latency is awesome. Usually 1-2ms from client to tower, even during load. Maxing the upload will sometimes spike latency to 30ms. There have been some firmware issues along the way, but so long as you're using good software, you'll be very happy. It doesn't sync like Canopy does, true. But we've never found that to be an issue for us. On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 6:29 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: > It's not so much what you're discussing there as much as the capabilities > of > the ptmp products. > > You simply can not offer the latency guarantees using Ubiquiti/802.11 that > Canopy provides. > > Now if you've got 3 people to serve I think it's financially ridiculous to > get a Canopy system involved... > > Josh Luthman > Office: 937-552-2340 > Direct: 937-552-2343 > 1100 Wayne St > Suite 1337 > Troy, OH 45373 > > “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue > that counts.” > --- Winston Churchill > > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Glenn Kelley wrote: > > > In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may > > help. > > > > > > > > 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment > > > > 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an > > issue vs the # of customers you have? > > ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a week > > then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) > > > > 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is > > equipment related... For some reason I think some of the ubiquity > > radios just need a power cycle and voila - they behave much better... > > so - what is the average # of calls per total clients that come in > > that are fixed w/ simple methods vs a truck roll for the ubiquity > > users ... > > > > > > > > Moto Users - do you have this info as well: > > > > Reason I ask is because I am wondering - if the cost of Moto is > > actually worth it... as a smaller operator - this information would > > be most beneficial for sure. > > > > Buying a Moto radio - even if 2 or 3 times the $$ if - the service > > calls on the back side are much less - might be worth it. > > > > Perhaps the cost of Radio vs People (both in manpower as well as > > client satisfaction for uptime) make the buying decision much > > easier... but having some numbers to go along with this would be great. > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > > > > > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
I have not had a chance to get field experience with the Canopy 430. I have a few areas I would like to use it, but am afraid to destroy the frequency of some of my other 5Ghz backhauls. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 10:17 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand Hi Chuck, Do you have any field review/ deployment info comparison of the new Canopy 430 ? I would love to hear some comparison info.. Thanks Faisal. On 4/13/2010 10:06 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote: > This is what I am in the process of doing now. We have another 200 > subs to be converted next month. Then another 100 subs after that. > Not only is it a multiple truck roll incident, but I already paid for > the MikroTik gear...and now am replacing customer equipment with Canopy. > ROI just got extended an additional 6 months. We just replaced a > complete Trango 900 AP with Canopy 900. Performance is just better > and it scales. > > Regards, > Chuck Hogg > Shelby Broadband > 502-722-9292 > ch...@shelbybb.com > http://www.shelbybb.com > > > -Original Message- > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] > On Behalf Of Travis Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:24 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand > > Hi, > > Let's keep it simple and easy. With Canopy your system can scale > infinitely (due to GPS sync) and latency is always very low and > consistent (less than 10ms). With UBNT, you can build a system much > cheaper, and one that will probably work in a small, rural area. > However, it does not scale. > > So, the question you have to ask is: Will your network ever grow to > the size that you run out of channels? On a single tower, there are > roughly six legal channels in the 5.8ghz band (using 20mhz channel > size). None of the other channels are legal with UBNT gear. So you > have 6 channels to use for your entire network, and you can't > co-locate near adjacent channels, and you can't have two AP's on > different towers facing each other on the same channel. > > The problem we made on our network was trying to use Mikrotik for PtMP > deployments and discovering that it doesn't scale. We ended up having > to go to every customer we had installed on two big towers and change > them out to Canopy. So we had to roll a truck twice. :( > > Travis > Microserv > > > Glenn Kelley wrote: > >> In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may >> help. >> >> >> >> 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment >> >> 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an >> issue vs the # of customers you have? >> ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a >> week >> > >> then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) >> >> 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is >> equipment related... For some reason I think some of the ubiquity >> radios just need a power cycle and voila - they behave much better... >> so - what is the average # of calls per total clients that come in >> that are fixed w/ simple methods vs a truck roll for the ubiquity >> users ... >> >> >> >> Moto Users - do you have this info as well: >> >> Reason I ask is because I am wondering - if the cost of Moto is >> actually worth it... as a smaller operator - this information would >> be most beneficial for sure. >> >> Buying a Moto radio - even if 2 or 3 times the $$ if - the service >> calls on the back side are much less - might be worth it. >> >> Perhaps the cost of Radio vs People (both in manpower as well as >> client satisfaction for uptime) make the buying decision much >> easier... but having some numbers to go along with this would be >> > great. > >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> >> > -- > -- > > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> >> > -- > -- > > >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa
Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
We have seen a lot of this actually. For small trailer parks or neighborhood blocks that can't see a tower. Basically, have a Moto SM go to a rooftop that can reach the AP and then put a NS2 behind it pointing in the direction of a group of houses that you normally can't see. Put the NS2 in AP mode and reach an addition 5-10 customers. The cost of a Moto AP may not justify adding a small 5-10 customers but the NS2 makes a little more sense. I personally wouldn't recommend this because network management can become a huge PITA but for "smaller SPs" every dollar increase matters. -Jeff Convergence Technologies "There is a difference" -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Francois D. Menard Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:37 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand Actually, both work together ... we extend our Canopy PPPoE bridged segments with Ubnt's for el-cheapo point-to-point extensions ... Sort of a Moto Canopy P2MP-to-UBnt(P)-to-UBnt(P) F. On 2010-04-13, at 8:29 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: > It's not so much what you're discussing there as much as the capabilities of > the ptmp products. > > You simply can not offer the latency guarantees using Ubiquiti/802.11 that > Canopy provides. > > Now if you've got 3 people to serve I think it's financially ridiculous to > get a Canopy system involved... > > Josh Luthman > Office: 937-552-2340 > Direct: 937-552-2343 > 1100 Wayne St > Suite 1337 > Troy, OH 45373 > > "Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue > that counts." > --- Winston Churchill > > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Glenn Kelley wrote: > >> In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may >> help. >> >> >> >> 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment >> >> 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an >> issue vs the # of customers you have? >> ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a week >> then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) >> >> 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is >> equipment related... For some reason I think some of the ubiquity >> radios just need a power cycle and voila - they behave much better... >> so - what is the average # of calls per total clients that come in >> that are fixed w/ simple methods vs a truck roll for the ubiquity >> users ... >> >> >> >> Moto Users - do you have this info as well: >> >> Reason I ask is because I am wondering - if the cost of Moto is >> actually worth it... as a smaller operator - this information would >> be most beneficial for sure. >> >> Buying a Moto radio - even if 2 or 3 times the $$ if - the service >> calls on the back side are much less - might be worth it. >> >> Perhaps the cost of Radio vs People (both in manpower as well as >> client satisfaction for uptime) make the buying decision much >> easier... but having some numbers to go along with this would be great. >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> >> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> >> >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
No. It is impossible to get the same number of subs on a polling MAC (UBNT, Trango) as with Canopy. The reason is that Canopy does their scheduling in hardware, not software. Mikrotik attempted to make their system handle more than 30 subs by improving the polling code, but they said it was as good as it could get. The CPU just can not handle enough interrupts to make the polling work with more than 30-40 subs. (I worked on this with them for over a year). There is a reason Canopy does it in hardware. Travis Microserv Jon Auer wrote: > On that note, I have a few questions. > On those 40-50 802.11 subs, what kind of bandwidth are the users > seeing/are you selling them? > > Do you count a polling MAC on a 802.11 chipset, say Ubiquiti AirMax, > in with 802.11? > > My assumption would be that with a polling MAC on 802.11 chips you > should see nearly the number of subs of Canopy minus the frequency > reuse you get with GPS sync. Would you say that is accurate? > > On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Matt Larsen - Lists > wrote: > >> Right on schedule, its time for the 802.11 vs Canopy crusades. >> >> If you deploy it right, you should be able to get about 40-50 subs on >> 802.11 based APs. If your application is going to require higher >> density than that, go with Canopy, as you can probably get 120-150 per >> AP before they max out.If you intend to deploy symmetrical speeds, >> you should probably deploy Canopy. >> >> 10mhz channel sizes seem to make a big difference on 802.11, as you can >> then put up more sectors and the throughput doesn't diminish that much >> with the half-size channels. I wouldn't put up Ubiquiti or Tranzeo >> APs, I would definitely go with StarOS or Mikrotik for the APs to get >> the added functionality that they offer. I have several thousand subs >> deployed on my network and on networks that I designed handling VOIP and >> just about any other application needed by the end users just fine - all >> with 802.11 based gear. A special thanks to the Canopy guys out there >> who have been selling me their used Tranzeo CPEs - your old radios are >> alive and well on my network. Win-Win. >> >> If you are going to scale to huge numbers per AP, you will need to be >> just as concerned with obtaining high-capacity backhaul than PtMP >> performance. The 802.11 based backhauls are cheap and ubiquitous and >> do pretty good up to about 20meg, but they are about done at that >> point. Drop the extra coin and get licensed backhauls. >> >> Matt Larsen >> vistabeam.com >> >> On 4/13/2010 8:06 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote: >> >>> This is what I am in the process of doing now. We have another 200 subs >>> to be converted next month. Then another 100 subs after that. Not only >>> is it a multiple truck roll incident, but I already paid for the >>> MikroTik gear...and now am replacing customer equipment with Canopy. >>> ROI just got extended an additional 6 months. We just replaced a >>> complete Trango 900 AP with Canopy 900. Performance is just better and >>> it scales. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Chuck Hogg >>> Shelby Broadband >>> 502-722-9292 >>> ch...@shelbybb.com >>> http://www.shelbybb.com >>> >>> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:24 PM >>> To: WISPA General List >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand >>> >>> Hi, >>> >>> Let's keep it simple and easy. With Canopy your system can scale >>> infinitely (due to GPS sync) and latency is always very low and >>> consistent (less than 10ms). With UBNT, you can build a system much >>> cheaper, and one that will probably work in a small, rural area. >>> However, it does not scale. >>> >>> So, the question you have to ask is: Will your network ever grow to the >>> size that you run out of channels? On a single tower, there are roughly >>> six legal channels in the 5.8ghz band (using 20mhz channel size). None >>> of the other channels are legal with UBNT gear. So you have 6 channels >>> to use for your entire network, and you can't co-locate near adjacent >>> channels, and you can't have two AP's on different towers facing each >>> other on the same channel. >>> >>> The problem we made on our network was trying to use Mikrotik for PtMP >>> deployments and discovering
Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
On that note, I have a few questions. On those 40-50 802.11 subs, what kind of bandwidth are the users seeing/are you selling them? Do you count a polling MAC on a 802.11 chipset, say Ubiquiti AirMax, in with 802.11? My assumption would be that with a polling MAC on 802.11 chips you should see nearly the number of subs of Canopy minus the frequency reuse you get with GPS sync. Would you say that is accurate? On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 1:02 AM, Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: > Right on schedule, its time for the 802.11 vs Canopy crusades. > > If you deploy it right, you should be able to get about 40-50 subs on > 802.11 based APs. If your application is going to require higher > density than that, go with Canopy, as you can probably get 120-150 per > AP before they max out. If you intend to deploy symmetrical speeds, > you should probably deploy Canopy. > > 10mhz channel sizes seem to make a big difference on 802.11, as you can > then put up more sectors and the throughput doesn't diminish that much > with the half-size channels. I wouldn't put up Ubiquiti or Tranzeo > APs, I would definitely go with StarOS or Mikrotik for the APs to get > the added functionality that they offer. I have several thousand subs > deployed on my network and on networks that I designed handling VOIP and > just about any other application needed by the end users just fine - all > with 802.11 based gear. A special thanks to the Canopy guys out there > who have been selling me their used Tranzeo CPEs - your old radios are > alive and well on my network. Win-Win. > > If you are going to scale to huge numbers per AP, you will need to be > just as concerned with obtaining high-capacity backhaul than PtMP > performance. The 802.11 based backhauls are cheap and ubiquitous and > do pretty good up to about 20meg, but they are about done at that > point. Drop the extra coin and get licensed backhauls. > > Matt Larsen > vistabeam.com > > On 4/13/2010 8:06 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote: >> This is what I am in the process of doing now. We have another 200 subs >> to be converted next month. Then another 100 subs after that. Not only >> is it a multiple truck roll incident, but I already paid for the >> MikroTik gear...and now am replacing customer equipment with Canopy. >> ROI just got extended an additional 6 months. We just replaced a >> complete Trango 900 AP with Canopy 900. Performance is just better and >> it scales. >> >> Regards, >> Chuck Hogg >> Shelby Broadband >> 502-722-9292 >> ch...@shelbybb.com >> http://www.shelbybb.com >> >> >> -Original Message- >> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On >> Behalf Of Travis Johnson >> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:24 PM >> To: WISPA General List >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand >> >> Hi, >> >> Let's keep it simple and easy. With Canopy your system can scale >> infinitely (due to GPS sync) and latency is always very low and >> consistent (less than 10ms). With UBNT, you can build a system much >> cheaper, and one that will probably work in a small, rural area. >> However, it does not scale. >> >> So, the question you have to ask is: Will your network ever grow to the >> size that you run out of channels? On a single tower, there are roughly >> six legal channels in the 5.8ghz band (using 20mhz channel size). None >> of the other channels are legal with UBNT gear. So you have 6 channels >> to use for your entire network, and you can't co-locate near adjacent >> channels, and you can't have two AP's on different towers facing each >> other on the same channel. >> >> The problem we made on our network was trying to use Mikrotik for PtMP >> deployments and discovering that it doesn't scale. We ended up having to >> go to every customer we had installed on two big towers and change them >> out to Canopy. So we had to roll a truck twice. :( >> >> Travis >> Microserv >> >> >> Glenn Kelley wrote: >> >>> In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may >>> help. >>> >>> >>> >>> 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment >>> >>> 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an >>> issue vs the # of customers you have? >>> ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a week >>> >> >>> then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) >>> >>> 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is >>>
Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
Right on schedule, its time for the 802.11 vs Canopy crusades. If you deploy it right, you should be able to get about 40-50 subs on 802.11 based APs. If your application is going to require higher density than that, go with Canopy, as you can probably get 120-150 per AP before they max out.If you intend to deploy symmetrical speeds, you should probably deploy Canopy. 10mhz channel sizes seem to make a big difference on 802.11, as you can then put up more sectors and the throughput doesn't diminish that much with the half-size channels. I wouldn't put up Ubiquiti or Tranzeo APs, I would definitely go with StarOS or Mikrotik for the APs to get the added functionality that they offer. I have several thousand subs deployed on my network and on networks that I designed handling VOIP and just about any other application needed by the end users just fine - all with 802.11 based gear. A special thanks to the Canopy guys out there who have been selling me their used Tranzeo CPEs - your old radios are alive and well on my network. Win-Win. If you are going to scale to huge numbers per AP, you will need to be just as concerned with obtaining high-capacity backhaul than PtMP performance. The 802.11 based backhauls are cheap and ubiquitous and do pretty good up to about 20meg, but they are about done at that point. Drop the extra coin and get licensed backhauls. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com On 4/13/2010 8:06 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote: > This is what I am in the process of doing now. We have another 200 subs > to be converted next month. Then another 100 subs after that. Not only > is it a multiple truck roll incident, but I already paid for the > MikroTik gear...and now am replacing customer equipment with Canopy. > ROI just got extended an additional 6 months. We just replaced a > complete Trango 900 AP with Canopy 900. Performance is just better and > it scales. > > Regards, > Chuck Hogg > Shelby Broadband > 502-722-9292 > ch...@shelbybb.com > http://www.shelbybb.com > > > -Original Message- > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On > Behalf Of Travis Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:24 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand > > Hi, > > Let's keep it simple and easy. With Canopy your system can scale > infinitely (due to GPS sync) and latency is always very low and > consistent (less than 10ms). With UBNT, you can build a system much > cheaper, and one that will probably work in a small, rural area. > However, it does not scale. > > So, the question you have to ask is: Will your network ever grow to the > size that you run out of channels? On a single tower, there are roughly > six legal channels in the 5.8ghz band (using 20mhz channel size). None > of the other channels are legal with UBNT gear. So you have 6 channels > to use for your entire network, and you can't co-locate near adjacent > channels, and you can't have two AP's on different towers facing each > other on the same channel. > > The problem we made on our network was trying to use Mikrotik for PtMP > deployments and discovering that it doesn't scale. We ended up having to > go to every customer we had installed on two big towers and change them > out to Canopy. So we had to roll a truck twice. :( > > Travis > Microserv > > > Glenn Kelley wrote: > >> In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may >> help. >> >> >> >> 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment >> >> 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an >> issue vs the # of customers you have? >> ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a week >> > >> then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) >> >> 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is >> equipment related... For some reason I think some of the ubiquity >> radios just need a power cycle and voila - they behave much better... >> so - what is the average # of calls per total clients that come in >> that are fixed w/ simple methods vs a truck roll for the ubiquity >> users ... >> >> >> >> Moto Users - do you have this info as well: >> >> Reason I ask is because I am wondering - if the cost of Moto is >> actually worth it... as a smaller operator - this information would >> be most beneficial for sure. >> >> Buying a Moto radio - even if 2 or 3 times the $$ if - the service >> calls on the back side are much less - might be worth it. >> >> Perhaps the cost of Radio v
Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
Hi Chuck, Do you have any field review/ deployment info comparison of the new Canopy 430 ? I would love to hear some comparison info.. Thanks Faisal. On 4/13/2010 10:06 PM, Chuck Hogg wrote: > This is what I am in the process of doing now. We have another 200 subs > to be converted next month. Then another 100 subs after that. Not only > is it a multiple truck roll incident, but I already paid for the > MikroTik gear...and now am replacing customer equipment with Canopy. > ROI just got extended an additional 6 months. We just replaced a > complete Trango 900 AP with Canopy 900. Performance is just better and > it scales. > > Regards, > Chuck Hogg > Shelby Broadband > 502-722-9292 > ch...@shelbybb.com > http://www.shelbybb.com > > > -Original Message- > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On > Behalf Of Travis Johnson > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:24 PM > To: WISPA General List > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand > > Hi, > > Let's keep it simple and easy. With Canopy your system can scale > infinitely (due to GPS sync) and latency is always very low and > consistent (less than 10ms). With UBNT, you can build a system much > cheaper, and one that will probably work in a small, rural area. > However, it does not scale. > > So, the question you have to ask is: Will your network ever grow to the > size that you run out of channels? On a single tower, there are roughly > six legal channels in the 5.8ghz band (using 20mhz channel size). None > of the other channels are legal with UBNT gear. So you have 6 channels > to use for your entire network, and you can't co-locate near adjacent > channels, and you can't have two AP's on different towers facing each > other on the same channel. > > The problem we made on our network was trying to use Mikrotik for PtMP > deployments and discovering that it doesn't scale. We ended up having to > go to every customer we had installed on two big towers and change them > out to Canopy. So we had to roll a truck twice. :( > > Travis > Microserv > > > Glenn Kelley wrote: > >> In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may >> help. >> >> >> >> 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment >> >> 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an >> issue vs the # of customers you have? >> ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a week >> > >> then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) >> >> 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is >> equipment related... For some reason I think some of the ubiquity >> radios just need a power cycle and voila - they behave much better... >> so - what is the average # of calls per total clients that come in >> that are fixed w/ simple methods vs a truck roll for the ubiquity >> users ... >> >> >> >> Moto Users - do you have this info as well: >> >> Reason I ask is because I am wondering - if the cost of Moto is >> actually worth it... as a smaller operator - this information would >> be most beneficial for sure. >> >> Buying a Moto radio - even if 2 or 3 times the $$ if - the service >> calls on the back side are much less - might be worth it. >> >> Perhaps the cost of Radio vs People (both in manpower as well as >> client satisfaction for uptime) make the buying decision much >> easier... but having some numbers to go along with this would be >> > great. > >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> >> > > > >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> >> > > > >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> >> >> > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.
Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
This is what I am in the process of doing now. We have another 200 subs to be converted next month. Then another 100 subs after that. Not only is it a multiple truck roll incident, but I already paid for the MikroTik gear...and now am replacing customer equipment with Canopy. ROI just got extended an additional 6 months. We just replaced a complete Trango 900 AP with Canopy 900. Performance is just better and it scales. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand Hi, Let's keep it simple and easy. With Canopy your system can scale infinitely (due to GPS sync) and latency is always very low and consistent (less than 10ms). With UBNT, you can build a system much cheaper, and one that will probably work in a small, rural area. However, it does not scale. So, the question you have to ask is: Will your network ever grow to the size that you run out of channels? On a single tower, there are roughly six legal channels in the 5.8ghz band (using 20mhz channel size). None of the other channels are legal with UBNT gear. So you have 6 channels to use for your entire network, and you can't co-locate near adjacent channels, and you can't have two AP's on different towers facing each other on the same channel. The problem we made on our network was trying to use Mikrotik for PtMP deployments and discovering that it doesn't scale. We ended up having to go to every customer we had installed on two big towers and change them out to Canopy. So we had to roll a truck twice. :( Travis Microserv Glenn Kelley wrote: > In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may > help. > > > > 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment > > 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an > issue vs the # of customers you have? > ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a week > then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) > > 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is > equipment related... For some reason I think some of the ubiquity > radios just need a power cycle and voila - they behave much better... > so - what is the average # of calls per total clients that come in > that are fixed w/ simple methods vs a truck roll for the ubiquity > users ... > > > > Moto Users - do you have this info as well: > > Reason I ask is because I am wondering - if the cost of Moto is > actually worth it... as a smaller operator - this information would > be most beneficial for sure. > > Buying a Moto radio - even if 2 or 3 times the $$ if - the service > calls on the back side are much less - might be worth it. > > Perhaps the cost of Radio vs People (both in manpower as well as > client satisfaction for uptime) make the buying decision much > easier... but having some numbers to go along with this would be great. > > > Thanks > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
Awesome overview - thank you. On Apr 13, 2010, at 9:23 PM, Travis Johnson wrote: > Hi, > > Let's keep it simple and easy. With Canopy your system can scale > infinitely (due to GPS sync) and latency is always very low and > consistent (less than 10ms). With UBNT, you can build a system much > cheaper, and one that will probably work in a small, rural area. > However, it does not scale. > > So, the question you have to ask is: Will your network ever grow to > the > size that you run out of channels? On a single tower, there are > roughly > six legal channels in the 5.8ghz band (using 20mhz channel size). None > of the other channels are legal with UBNT gear. So you have 6 channels > to use for your entire network, and you can't co-locate near adjacent > channels, and you can't have two AP's on different towers facing each > other on the same channel. > > The problem we made on our network was trying to use Mikrotik for PtMP > deployments and discovering that it doesn't scale. We ended up > having to > go to every customer we had installed on two big towers and change > them > out to Canopy. So we had to roll a truck twice. :( > > Travis > Microserv > > > Glenn Kelley wrote: >> In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may >> help. >> >> >> >> 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment >> >> 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an >> issue vs the # of customers you have? >> ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a >> week >> then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) >> >> 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is >> equipment related... For some reason I think some of the ubiquity >> radios just need a power cycle and voila - they behave much better... >> so - what is the average # of calls per total clients that come in >> that are fixed w/ simple methods vs a truck roll for the ubiquity >> users ... >> >> >> >> Moto Users - do you have this info as well: >> >> Reason I ask is because I am wondering - if the cost of Moto is >> actually worth it... as a smaller operator - this information would >> be most beneficial for sure. >> >> Buying a Moto radio - even if 2 or 3 times the $$ if - the service >> calls on the back side are much less - might be worth it. >> >> Perhaps the cost of Radio vs People (both in manpower as well as >> client satisfaction for uptime) make the buying decision much >> easier... but having some numbers to go along with this would be >> great. >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> >> > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
Hi, Let's keep it simple and easy. With Canopy your system can scale infinitely (due to GPS sync) and latency is always very low and consistent (less than 10ms). With UBNT, you can build a system much cheaper, and one that will probably work in a small, rural area. However, it does not scale. So, the question you have to ask is: Will your network ever grow to the size that you run out of channels? On a single tower, there are roughly six legal channels in the 5.8ghz band (using 20mhz channel size). None of the other channels are legal with UBNT gear. So you have 6 channels to use for your entire network, and you can't co-locate near adjacent channels, and you can't have two AP's on different towers facing each other on the same channel. The problem we made on our network was trying to use Mikrotik for PtMP deployments and discovering that it doesn't scale. We ended up having to go to every customer we had installed on two big towers and change them out to Canopy. So we had to roll a truck twice. :( Travis Microserv Glenn Kelley wrote: > In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may > help. > > > > 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment > > 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an > issue vs the # of customers you have? > ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a week > then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) > > 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is > equipment related... For some reason I think some of the ubiquity > radios just need a power cycle and voila - they behave much better... > so - what is the average # of calls per total clients that come in > that are fixed w/ simple methods vs a truck roll for the ubiquity > users ... > > > > Moto Users - do you have this info as well: > > Reason I ask is because I am wondering - if the cost of Moto is > actually worth it... as a smaller operator - this information would > be most beneficial for sure. > > Buying a Moto radio - even if 2 or 3 times the $$ if - the service > calls on the back side are much less - might be worth it. > > Perhaps the cost of Radio vs People (both in manpower as well as > client satisfaction for uptime) make the buying decision much > easier... but having some numbers to go along with this would be great. > > > Thanks > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
Actually, both work together ... we extend our Canopy PPPoE bridged segments with Ubnt's for el-cheapo point-to-point extensions ... Sort of a Moto Canopy P2MP-to-UBnt(P)-to-UBnt(P) F. On 2010-04-13, at 8:29 PM, Josh Luthman wrote: > It's not so much what you're discussing there as much as the capabilities of > the ptmp products. > > You simply can not offer the latency guarantees using Ubiquiti/802.11 that > Canopy provides. > > Now if you've got 3 people to serve I think it's financially ridiculous to > get a Canopy system involved... > > Josh Luthman > Office: 937-552-2340 > Direct: 937-552-2343 > 1100 Wayne St > Suite 1337 > Troy, OH 45373 > > “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue > that counts.” > --- Winston Churchill > > > On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Glenn Kelley wrote: > >> In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may >> help. >> >> >> >> 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment >> >> 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an >> issue vs the # of customers you have? >> ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a week >> then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) >> >> 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is >> equipment related... For some reason I think some of the ubiquity >> radios just need a power cycle and voila - they behave much better... >> so - what is the average # of calls per total clients that come in >> that are fixed w/ simple methods vs a truck roll for the ubiquity >> users ... >> >> >> >> Moto Users - do you have this info as well: >> >> Reason I ask is because I am wondering - if the cost of Moto is >> actually worth it... as a smaller operator - this information would >> be most beneficial for sure. >> >> Buying a Moto radio - even if 2 or 3 times the $$ if - the service >> calls on the back side are much less - might be worth it. >> >> Perhaps the cost of Radio vs People (both in manpower as well as >> client satisfaction for uptime) make the buying decision much >> easier... but having some numbers to go along with this would be great. >> >> >> Thanks >> >> >> >> >> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today! >> http://signup.wispa.org/ >> >> >> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org >> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe: >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless >> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ >> > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
It's not so much what you're discussing there as much as the capabilities of the ptmp products. You simply can not offer the latency guarantees using Ubiquiti/802.11 that Canopy provides. Now if you've got 3 people to serve I think it's financially ridiculous to get a Canopy system involved... Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” --- Winston Churchill On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Glenn Kelley wrote: > In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may > help. > > > > 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment > > 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an > issue vs the # of customers you have? > ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a week > then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) > > 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is > equipment related... For some reason I think some of the ubiquity > radios just need a power cycle and voila - they behave much better... > so - what is the average # of calls per total clients that come in > that are fixed w/ simple methods vs a truck roll for the ubiquity > users ... > > > > Moto Users - do you have this info as well: > > Reason I ask is because I am wondering - if the cost of Moto is > actually worth it... as a smaller operator - this information would > be most beneficial for sure. > > Buying a Moto radio - even if 2 or 3 times the $$ if - the service > calls on the back side are much less - might be worth it. > > Perhaps the cost of Radio vs People (both in manpower as well as > client satisfaction for uptime) make the buying decision much > easier... but having some numbers to go along with this would be great. > > > Thanks > > > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today! > http://signup.wispa.org/ > > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe: > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ > WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Ubnt vs Moto vs ... your brand
In trying to make the right buying decision - some simple answers may help. 1. What is the meantime failure rate for your ubiquity equipment 2. What is the avg amount of truck rolls per week you run to fix an issue vs the # of customers you have? ie- if you have say 1500 clients and do 8 troubleshooting calls a week then it would be 1500/8 = .0053% ) 3. how often does a tech call come in (w/o a truck roll) that is equipment related... For some reason I think some of the ubiquity radios just need a power cycle and voila - they behave much better... so - what is the average # of calls per total clients that come in that are fixed w/ simple methods vs a truck roll for the ubiquity users ... Moto Users - do you have this info as well: Reason I ask is because I am wondering - if the cost of Moto is actually worth it... as a smaller operator - this information would be most beneficial for sure. Buying a Moto radio - even if 2 or 3 times the $$ if - the service calls on the back side are much less - might be worth it. Perhaps the cost of Radio vs People (both in manpower as well as client satisfaction for uptime) make the buying decision much easier... but having some numbers to go along with this would be great. Thanks WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
