Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-03 Thread Carl A jeptha
Well done Sam, move to the top of the class. Notice when you do it to 
someone else(England) it is ok, but do it to your own goverment it is 
breaking the law? Weren't Laws made to be broken :-\


You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
Office Phone: 905 349-2084
Office Hours: 9:00am - 5:00pm
skype cajeptha



Sam Tetherow wrote:
You probably should have then.  Last I checked treason was just that, 
which is what the founding fathers did when they declared their 
independance from England over unjust taxation (a law) which they 
refused to pay (ignored/disobeyed it).


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

J. Vogel wrote:

... I wish now that I had paid more attention in History classes

Which of the founding fathers said something to the effect that the
proper response of the citizenry
to an unjust law was to ignore/disobey it?

John Vogel

Butch Evans wrote:
 

On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

   

Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly
oppose it.  Your country was founded on that very principle.
  

Yes it does (sometimes).  Open opposition to a law and advocating
criminal action are not the same thing.





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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-03 Thread Carl A jeptha
When I had to get my citizenship I had to pass a language test, so I 
remember that it is eh, eh. 8-)


You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
Office Phone: 905 349-2084
Office Hours: 9:00am - 5:00pm
skype cajeptha



George Rogato wrote:



eh?

I thought it was aye

Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh?

Always end with a question, eh?

Lonnie




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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Alan Cain

Dawn DiPietro wrote:

Mark,

Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable 
solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the 
plate and defending your position.




Whoa, there now! Civil disobedience is always a viable solution. This IS 
America (at least where I live), land of the free and home of the brave, 
a country of laws (remember?) and of the rights of all people guaranteed 
by our constitution and bill of rights. I remember the 60's and 70's 
(and participated) and I for one am NOT sorry.


I am a war veteran, disabled by our conflict, and a war protester, and I 
am bloody well sensitive to the idea that my fights (for individual 
rights and the rights of our citizens to squawk like hell) was for 
nothing. Was it?


I think our country was made, and made better, by civil disobedience, 
and that there is always a place for it. Always. Did I say always?


Alan Cain

The king can see that (I hope) without his spectacles.
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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Butch Evans

On Wed, 2 May 2007, Alan Cain wrote:


Dawn DiPietro wrote:


Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable 
solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the 
plate and defending your position.



Whoa, there now! Civil disobedience is always a viable solution.


Civil disobedience is (in the context that Dawn was using it) the 
breaking of existing law.  In spite of your 60's heritage, breaking 
the law is NOT an acceptable action.  I understand your position (in 
theory, not practice), but CHANGING law through political influence 
is one thing.  Ignoring it is not a smart thing.


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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

In the 60's and '70's most of us would taken a much firmer stance.  We
got old and worried about offending somebody.  And then we worried
that somebody would punish us for taking our stand.

One thing is for sure, the Telcos would not have stood for such a
bum's rush.  The FCC and FBI guys would be running for cover from the
Telco legal and lobby efforts.  Our reaction was to brow beat anybody
who questioned the the double speak.

What happened to us?  Do we feel we have too much to lose and no way
to protect ourselves?  Are we really in a free country or have we
fooled ourselves about that as well?

Lonnie



On 5/2/07, Alan Cain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Dawn DiPietro wrote:
 Mark,

 Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable
 solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the
 plate and defending your position.


Whoa, there now! Civil disobedience is always a viable solution. This IS
America (at least where I live), land of the free and home of the brave,
a country of laws (remember?) and of the rights of all people guaranteed
by our constitution and bill of rights. I remember the 60's and 70's
(and participated) and I for one am NOT sorry.

I am a war veteran, disabled by our conflict, and a war protester, and I
am bloody well sensitive to the idea that my fights (for individual
rights and the rights of our citizens to squawk like hell) was for
nothing. Was it?

I think our country was made, and made better, by civil disobedience,
and that there is always a place for it. Always. Did I say always?

Alan Cain

The king can see that (I hope) without his spectacles.
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RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread chris cooper
Its like my old hippie friend told me the only difference between
hippie and yuppie is 50 grand a year  That was in 91.  Adjust
accordingly for inflation.
c

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:55 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

In the 60's and '70's most of us would taken a much firmer stance.  We
got old and worried about offending somebody.  And then we worried
that somebody would punish us for taking our stand.

One thing is for sure, the Telcos would not have stood for such a
bum's rush.  The FCC and FBI guys would be running for cover from the
Telco legal and lobby efforts.  Our reaction was to brow beat anybody
who questioned the the double speak.

What happened to us?  Do we feel we have too much to lose and no way
to protect ourselves?  Are we really in a free country or have we
fooled ourselves about that as well?

Lonnie





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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly
oppose it.  Your country was founded on that very principle.

Lonnie

On 5/2/07, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2007, Alan Cain wrote:

 Dawn DiPietro wrote:

 Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable
solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the
plate and defending your position.

Whoa, there now! Civil disobedience is always a viable solution.

Civil disobedience is (in the context that Dawn was using it) the
breaking of existing law.  In spite of your 60's heritage, breaking
the law is NOT an acceptable action.  I understand your position (in
theory, not practice), but CHANGING law through political influence
is one thing.  Ignoring it is not a smart thing.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Sam Tetherow

Butch Evans wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2007, Alan Cain wrote:


Dawn DiPietro wrote:


Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable 
solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the 
plate and defending your position.



Whoa, there now! Civil disobedience is always a viable solution.


Civil disobedience is (in the context that Dawn was using it) the 
breaking of existing law. In spite of your 60's heritage, breaking the 
law is NOT an acceptable action. I understand your position (in 
theory, not practice), but CHANGING law through political influence is 
one thing. Ignoring it is not a smart thing.



Um, that is what the DISOBEDIENCE in civil disobedience means.

Sam Tetherow
Sandhills Wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

Also, and it finally sunk in, WE are becoming the MAN.  Why are we
scared of ourselves?

Lonnie

On 5/2/07, chris cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Its like my old hippie friend told me the only difference between
hippie and yuppie is 50 grand a year  That was in 91.  Adjust
accordingly for inflation.
c

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:55 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

In the 60's and '70's most of us would taken a much firmer stance.  We
got old and worried about offending somebody.  And then we worried
that somebody would punish us for taking our stand.

One thing is for sure, the Telcos would not have stood for such a
bum's rush.  The FCC and FBI guys would be running for cover from the
Telco legal and lobby efforts.  Our reaction was to brow beat anybody
who questioned the the double speak.

What happened to us?  Do we feel we have too much to lose and no way
to protect ourselves?  Are we really in a free country or have we
fooled ourselves about that as well?

Lonnie





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RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Cliff Leboeuf
But they are alike in they both have Harleys... :)



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of chris cooper
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:03 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

Its like my old hippie friend told me the only difference between
hippie and yuppie is 50 grand a year  That was in 91.  Adjust
accordingly for inflation.
c
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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Butch Evans

On Wed, 2 May 2007, Sam Tetherow wrote:


Um, that is what the DISOBEDIENCE in civil disobedience means.


I can't tell what you are referring to here.  My comment was 
specifically to say that criminal action (breaking the law) is not 
the proper course.  Is that the part that you disagree with?


--
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Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread J. Vogel
... I wish now that I had paid more attention in History classes

Which of the founding fathers said something to the effect that the
proper response of the citizenry
to an unjust law was to ignore/disobey it?

John Vogel

Butch Evans wrote:

 On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

 Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly
 oppose it.  Your country was founded on that very principle.

 Yes it does (sometimes).  Open opposition to a law and advocating
 criminal action are not the same thing.

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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread George Rogato

Nahh, hippies don't have harley's.

I was wiring at a hippie market a few years back, and this hippie dude, 
a real hippie dude, told me that my truck was a waste and that anywhere 
I could go in Eugene Oregon, he could get there just as fast on his 
bicycle. robably is true. So as I was getting ready to go to the supply 
house, he bet me that he would get there first.
So I took the bet, sure enough I show up and here is this hippie dude 
sitting on the loading dock. So I say to him, yeah but, ( a canadian 
expression :) ) waite right here. I come out with a few bundles of 
conduit and a few big rolls of wire,etc and ask him, how are you going 
to get this stuff back to your store on a bicycle???


Why else would I be driving a truck!

George

Cliff Leboeuf wrote:

But they are alike in they both have Harleys... :)



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of chris cooper
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:03 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

Its like my old hippie friend told me the only difference between
hippie and yuppie is 50 grand a year  That was in 91.  Adjust
accordingly for inflation.
c


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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread JohnnyO
Butch - if we all followed the laws - nothing in this country would be what 
it is today. If our predeccessors (spelling?) followed the rule which we 
bucked against - where would we be ?


JohnnyO
- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?



On Wed, 2 May 2007, Sam Tetherow wrote:


Um, that is what the DISOBEDIENCE in civil disobedience means.


I can't tell what you are referring to here.  My comment was specifically 
to say that criminal action (breaking the law) is not the proper course. 
Is that the part that you disagree with?


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Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

I suggest you not take the view that breaking any and all laws is a
criminal matter.  There are various levels of laws, and most are not
criminal matters.  I can break the speed laws and get a fine but no
criminal record, unless of course I harm someone or do it in such a
way that it is clearly criminal or insane (like 100 mph through a
playground).

Lonnie


On 5/2/07, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly
oppose it.  Your country was founded on that very principle.

Yes it does (sometimes).  Open opposition to a law and advocating
criminal action are not the same thing.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh?

Always end with a question, eh?

Lonnie

On 5/2/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Nahh, hippies don't have harley's.

I was wiring at a hippie market a few years back, and this hippie dude,
a real hippie dude, told me that my truck was a waste and that anywhere
I could go in Eugene Oregon, he could get there just as fast on his
bicycle. robably is true. So as I was getting ready to go to the supply
house, he bet me that he would get there first.
So I took the bet, sure enough I show up and here is this hippie dude
sitting on the loading dock. So I say to him, yeah but, ( a canadian
expression :) ) waite right here. I come out with a few bundles of
conduit and a few big rolls of wire,etc and ask him, how are you going
to get this stuff back to your store on a bicycle???

Why else would I be driving a truck!

George

Cliff Leboeuf wrote:
 But they are alike in they both have Harleys... :)



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of chris cooper
 Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:03 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

 Its like my old hippie friend told me the only difference between
 hippie and yuppie is 50 grand a year  That was in 91.  Adjust
 accordingly for inflation.
 c

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RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread David Peterson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience

I recommend Thoreau's treatise on the subject.

David

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of J. Vogel
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 5:59 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

... I wish now that I had paid more attention in History classes

Which of the founding fathers said something to the effect that the
proper response of the citizenry
to an unjust law was to ignore/disobey it?

John Vogel

Butch Evans wrote:

 On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

 Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly
 oppose it.  Your country was founded on that very principle.

 Yes it does (sometimes).  Open opposition to a law and advocating
 criminal action are not the same thing.

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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread George Rogato


Some people ask too much.

 Ask not what WISPA can do for you, but ask what you can  do for WISPA.

WISPA, being all of us, can always use a helping hand. Anybody that 
thinks they can help, should step up to the plate, pay the measly couple 
hundred bucks, and offer to do something to help, ALL of US, or WISPA


If anyone can not offer to help or refuses to pay dues, then they should 
not be asking others to do their work for them. They have no business 
asking what wispa is doing for them. They should tow the line and then 
ask for help.






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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Sam Tetherow
You probably should have then.  Last I checked treason was just that, 
which is what the founding fathers did when they declared their 
independance from England over unjust taxation (a law) which they 
refused to pay (ignored/disobeyed it).


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

J. Vogel wrote:

... I wish now that I had paid more attention in History classes

Which of the founding fathers said something to the effect that the
proper response of the citizenry
to an unjust law was to ignore/disobey it?

John Vogel

Butch Evans wrote:
  

On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:



Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly
oppose it.  Your country was founded on that very principle.
  

Yes it does (sometimes).  Open opposition to a law and advocating
criminal action are not the same thing.




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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread George Rogato



eh?

I thought it was aye

Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh?

Always end with a question, eh?

Lonnie



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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread JohnnyO

in BC most say hey
- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?





eh?

I thought it was aye

Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh?

Always end with a question, eh?

Lonnie



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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread George Rogato
In Maine, the old time new englander yankees say  you can't get theyer 
from heyer.


:)




JohnnyO wrote:

in BC most say hey
- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 5:12 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?





eh?

I thought it was aye

Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh?

Always end with a question, eh?

Lonnie



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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

aye is a form of yes, as in aye capn highliner.  eh is a form of
question, to gain agreement, such as I can do this, eh?

Lonnie

On 5/2/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



eh?

I thought it was aye

Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:
 The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh?

 Always end with a question, eh?

 Lonnie


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RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Correct, civil disobedience has been used effectively in the past to change
things for the better...and the worse.  

There are consequences to those who take those stands though.  

Jeff
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Alan Cain
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

Dawn DiPietro wrote:
 Mark,

 Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable 
 solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the 
 plate and defending your position.


Whoa, there now! Civil disobedience is always a viable solution. This IS
America (at least where I live), land of the free and home of the brave, a
country of laws (remember?) and of the rights of all people guaranteed by
our constitution and bill of rights. I remember the 60's and 70's (and
participated) and I for one am NOT sorry.

I am a war veteran, disabled by our conflict, and a war protester, and I am
bloody well sensitive to the idea that my fights (for individual rights and
the rights of our citizens to squawk like hell) was for nothing. Was it?

I think our country was made, and made better, by civil disobedience, and
that there is always a place for it. Always. Did I say always?

Alan Cain

The king can see that (I hope) without his spectacles.
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RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Get to know your local Congressman.  Go to the town hall meetings.  Stick
around afterward and chat.  The meetings are generally poorly attended, and
you can often get a LOT of time to discuss things that matter to you.  Get
involved.  I worked on the campaign of my local (ex) Congressman.  For 4
years my Congressman knew my name and would take my calls...I even got to
meet with him in DC when I was there for a tradeshow.  

It's not hard, it just takes some time and effort.

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 5:43 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly 
oppose it.  Your country was founded on that very principle.

Yes it does (sometimes).  Open opposition to a law and advocating criminal
action are not the same thing.

--
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Network Engineering and Security Consulting
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http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

That was the Magna Carta.

http://www.odessaoffice.com/constitution/

If you've not ready it, you'd be amazed at the history of it all.  Our 
constitution is partly founded upon that doc as I understand it.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: J. Vogel [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?



... I wish now that I had paid more attention in History classes

Which of the founding fathers said something to the effect that the
proper response of the citizenry
to an unjust law was to ignore/disobey it?

John Vogel

Butch Evans wrote:


On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:


Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly
oppose it.  Your country was founded on that very principle.


Yes it does (sometimes).  Open opposition to a law and advocating
criminal action are not the same thing.


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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-05-02 Thread Mike Hammett

I thought you ended everything with an eh?


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 5:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?



The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh?

Always end with a question, eh?

Lonnie

On 5/2/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Nahh, hippies don't have harley's.

I was wiring at a hippie market a few years back, and this hippie dude,
a real hippie dude, told me that my truck was a waste and that anywhere
I could go in Eugene Oregon, he could get there just as fast on his
bicycle. robably is true. So as I was getting ready to go to the supply
house, he bet me that he would get there first.
So I took the bet, sure enough I show up and here is this hippie dude
sitting on the loading dock. So I say to him, yeah but, ( a canadian
expression :) ) waite right here. I come out with a few bundles of
conduit and a few big rolls of wire,etc and ask him, how are you going
to get this stuff back to your store on a bicycle???

Why else would I be driving a truck!

George

Cliff Leboeuf wrote:
 But they are alike in they both have Harleys... :)



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of chris cooper
 Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:03 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

 Its like my old hippie friend told me the only difference between
 hippie and yuppie is 50 grand a year  That was in 91.  Adjust
 accordingly for inflation.
 c

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[WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-04-26 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

Wow.  I guess the title really is right.

When I participated in the debates about who was a WISP, and who could join
WISPA, we were very broad, and included community networks,  free networks,
big and small operators.. including the guy who is just a hobby type
network operator, but provides connection to his small town, community,
neighborhood, or even just block.

Now we've decided that the only people who count are the  big guys.   The
professionals?  A few hundred?I know that lots of people didn't file
477 so that they could hide when the next thing came out... And it was no
time at all.   What will happen when the next mandate comes?   Will you
start referencing the scores of WISP's?   After the next one will it be
the dozens?

Marlon thinks there's 10,000 of us.

I think there's 20K of us, including all the wide array of informal, hobby,
free, or otherwise not set up an advertised for profit ISP.   So, we just
toss all them to the wolves to feed on first, before they get to us?  You
KNOW that the vast majority of these things are theoretically covered by
CALEA, but will never file a single thing, won't have any ability to assist
law enforcement, and will continue operating under the radar, possibly
getting destroyed one by one as circumstances bring them to light.

So, you think that the FCC is going OUTLAW delivering internet via wireless
because we discuss tactics about how to get them to face reality?   I don't
advocate lying to anyone.  If you can, by george, file you can.  But for the
rest of us..  File you can't.   And I'd encourage EVERY ONE OF THOSE 15-20K
network operators to do the same.   Create the logjam that teaches
regulators when they've done wrong.   This is the most basic tenet of
democracy I can think of.   There is no holiness to the government or to
law they write. It does not come from God to them to us.All are subject
to negotiation and resistance by the governed.

I WILL DO JUST THAT, because I can't without changing my network.   But,
I'll just be offering my farewell email to the list soon UNLESS we stick
together, and unless WISPA and everyone else starts telling them to back off
and that the vast majority of operators actually cannot reasonably comply.
As far as I can tell, the only informal WISPA communication was that we can!

And if they shut me down... what will WISPA's stance be?   oh, he was a
renegade?   That looks like what you all want to do.  AT least the public
list won't be cluttered with noise about trying to save the WISP industry
from exinction.Sheesh.   Who cares about that radical issue?

I have written over and over and over that this isn't about me, nor my views
on the right or wrong... but about our industry and DEFENDING IT.And it
appears the biggest fight WISPA wants to have is the one to shut up those
who want to save their own skin, plus that of their fellow intrepid
operators.

I would encourage you to sit down and read the last FCC published document
on the topic of CALEA.  You need to understand that what we are supposedly
working on as compliance is not fixed AT ALL.  Just becoming presently
compliant is not a gauranteed long term or future solution.   The FCC
reserves the right to mandate PRECISELY what we are doing, and even in the
future to demand certification of the equipment we use.  They are resisting
that now, but but as history shows and the fact that they're trying to force
CALEA compliance on us, that they're as bendable as a willow in the wind.
This is not, as some people are attempting to portray it a minor, one time
bump in the road.   It's going to get bigger and it's going to continue to
be a source of heartburn even for those who can comply now.

All of this is a trial run (my words, not theirs) to see how well it
works.  If the results...after we re-build, restructure, or in some cases,
do very little... aren't satisfactory, they can revisit and impose HUGE
mandates that would bury pretty much every WISP except perhaps a few of the
multi-million dollar ones.   And that revisit is not determined by the
FCC's opinion, it's going to be in consultation with the DOJ and FBI, who
wanted MUCH more, and may very well get MUCH more, unless we start making
the case this is bad law, policy, and the wrong approach.

We cannot consider CALEA issues dealt with and just go back to business as
usual, because the deadline passes and we have something that works under
the guidelines.   I predict that the deadline will pass and only those who
have a c ontract with a TTP and a couple of router manufacturers will
actually have full compliance.   That will be only some of the hundreds
we're talking about right now.I further predict that in a year or two,
further mandates about CALEA will come along.   These will be mandates on
equipment providers.  And they will be attempting to explain how CALEA
compliance will occur using what they sell.   We'll see most of what's out
there vanish almost overnight, with only a few remaining 

Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-04-26 Thread Dawn DiPietro

Mark,

Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable solution. 
I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the plate and 
defending your position.


Regards,
Dawn DiPietro

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

Wow.  I guess the title really is right.

When I participated in the debates about who was a WISP, and who could join
WISPA, we were very broad, and included community networks,  free networks,
big and small operators.. including the guy who is just a hobby type
network operator, but provides connection to his small town, community,
neighborhood, or even just block.

Now we've decided that the only people who count are the  big guys.   The
professionals?  A few hundred?I know that lots of people didn't file
477 so that they could hide when the next thing came out... And it was no
time at all.   What will happen when the next mandate comes?   Will you
start referencing the scores of WISP's?   After the next one will it be
the dozens?

Marlon thinks there's 10,000 of us.

I think there's 20K of us, including all the wide array of informal, hobby,
free, or otherwise not set up an advertised for profit ISP.   So, we just
toss all them to the wolves to feed on first, before they get to us?  You
KNOW that the vast majority of these things are theoretically covered by
CALEA, but will never file a single thing, won't have any ability to assist
law enforcement, and will continue operating under the radar, possibly
getting destroyed one by one as circumstances bring them to light.

So, you think that the FCC is going OUTLAW delivering internet via wireless
because we discuss tactics about how to get them to face reality?   I don't
advocate lying to anyone.  If you can, by george, file you can.  But for the
rest of us..  File you can't.   And I'd encourage EVERY ONE OF THOSE 15-20K
network operators to do the same.   Create the logjam that teaches
regulators when they've done wrong.   This is the most basic tenet of
democracy I can think of.   There is no holiness to the government or to
law they write. It does not come from God to them to us.All are subject
to negotiation and resistance by the governed.

I WILL DO JUST THAT, because I can't without changing my network.   But,
I'll just be offering my farewell email to the list soon UNLESS we stick
together, and unless WISPA and everyone else starts telling them to back off
and that the vast majority of operators actually cannot reasonably comply.
As far as I can tell, the only informal WISPA communication was that we can!

And if they shut me down... what will WISPA's stance be?   oh, he was a
renegade?   That looks like what you all want to do.  AT least the public
list won't be cluttered with noise about trying to save the WISP industry
from exinction.Sheesh.   Who cares about that radical issue?

I have written over and over and over that this isn't about me, nor my views
on the right or wrong... but about our industry and DEFENDING IT.And it
appears the biggest fight WISPA wants to have is the one to shut up those
who want to save their own skin, plus that of their fellow intrepid
operators.

I would encourage you to sit down and read the last FCC published document
on the topic of CALEA.  You need to understand that what we are supposedly
working on as compliance is not fixed AT ALL.  Just becoming presently
compliant is not a gauranteed long term or future solution.   The FCC
reserves the right to mandate PRECISELY what we are doing, and even in the
future to demand certification of the equipment we use.  They are resisting
that now, but but as history shows and the fact that they're trying to force
CALEA compliance on us, that they're as bendable as a willow in the wind.
This is not, as some people are attempting to portray it a minor, one time
bump in the road.   It's going to get bigger and it's going to continue to
be a source of heartburn even for those who can comply now.

All of this is a trial run (my words, not theirs) to see how well it
works.  If the results...after we re-build, restructure, or in some cases,
do very little... aren't satisfactory, they can revisit and impose HUGE
mandates that would bury pretty much every WISP except perhaps a few of the
multi-million dollar ones.   And that revisit is not determined by the
FCC's opinion, it's going to be in consultation with the DOJ and FBI, who
wanted MUCH more, and may very well get MUCH more, unless we start making
the case this is bad law, policy, and the wrong approach.

We cannot consider CALEA issues dealt with and just go back to business as
usual, because the deadline passes and we have something that works under
the guidelines.   I predict that the deadline will pass and only those who
have a c ontract with a TTP and a couple of router manufacturers will
actually have full compliance.   That will be only some of the hundreds
we're talking about right now.I further predict that in a year or two,
further mandates about CALEA will come along.   These 

Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-04-26 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

- Original Message - 
From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?


 Mark,

 Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable solution.
 I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the plate and
 defending your position.

Who said to be 'civil disobedient'?   THAT is what's going on with thousands
now.  I'm suggesting that we recruit those hundreds...errr..thousands to
file and say that they cannot comply.   This is not civil disobedience, this
is changing the POV of people who made bad policy.

They can't possibly undertake the task of taking down thousands of tiny
networks, which is what would change policies and possibly get pretty much
all of us exempted or changed to some non-mandated terms.

Oh, WISPA can just toss them to the wolves and lose absolutely ANY chance of
getting them into membership and support.These people ask what's the
value in being a member... and if all WISPA's going to do is toss them
under the bus, you might as well write off the vast majority of smaller
network operators from EVER supporting WISPA in any meaningful fashion.
Talk about chopping off your nose to spite your face...

Cripes... I've been trying to argue that WISPA is throwing away a HUGE
opportunity by not defending the industry as a whole, and is, in effect,
alienating the very people it needs to become a much more effective
organization.  There are NOT thousands of big, profitable WISP's.   There
ARE thousands of  tiny network operators, community networks, neighborhood
networks, and other small ventures that simply cannot go it alone and be
compliant, but if we could give them a reason... if we ACTUALLY fought for
them,  then we might create a reason they'd support us.   Instead, all we
see is intangible promises of 'we'll do what we can' and we can't resist so
shut up and go die quietly.

Read that document from the FCC again, there's HUGE areas of required
compliance that have NOT EVEN BEEN MENTIONED by anything to come from WISPA
nor anyone else I've seen, and we have 3 weeks to somehow bridge this gulf,
educate everyone, and try some give and take with the regulators.

In other words...




 Regards,
 Dawn DiPietro

 Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
  Wow.  I guess the title really is right.
 
  When I participated in the debates about who was a WISP, and who could
join
  WISPA, we were very broad, and included community networks,  free
networks,
  big and small operators.. including the guy who is just a hobby type
  network operator, but provides connection to his small town, community,
  neighborhood, or even just block.
 
  Now we've decided that the only people who count are the  big guys.
The
  professionals?  A few hundred?I know that lots of people didn't
file
  477 so that they could hide when the next thing came out... And it was
no
  time at all.   What will happen when the next mandate comes?   Will you
  start referencing the scores of WISP's?   After the next one will it
be
  the dozens?
 
  Marlon thinks there's 10,000 of us.
 
  I think there's 20K of us, including all the wide array of informal,
hobby,
  free, or otherwise not set up an advertised for profit ISP.   So, we
just
  toss all them to the wolves to feed on first, before they get to us?
You
  KNOW that the vast majority of these things are theoretically covered by
  CALEA, but will never file a single thing, won't have any ability to
assist
  law enforcement, and will continue operating under the radar, possibly
  getting destroyed one by one as circumstances bring them to light.
 
  So, you think that the FCC is going OUTLAW delivering internet via
wireless
  because we discuss tactics about how to get them to face reality?   I
don't
  advocate lying to anyone.  If you can, by george, file you can.  But for
the
  rest of us..  File you can't.   And I'd encourage EVERY ONE OF THOSE
15-20K
  network operators to do the same.   Create the logjam that teaches
  regulators when they've done wrong.   This is the most basic tenet of
  democracy I can think of.   There is no holiness to the government or
to
  law they write. It does not come from God to them to us.All are
subject
  to negotiation and resistance by the governed.
 
  I WILL DO JUST THAT, because I can't without changing my network.   But,
  I'll just be offering my farewell email to the list soon UNLESS we
stick
  together, and unless WISPA and everyone else starts telling them to back
off
  and that the vast majority of operators actually cannot reasonably
comply.
  As far as I can tell, the only informal WISPA communication was that we
can!
 
  And if they shut me down... what will WISPA's stance be?   oh, he was a
  renegade?   That looks like what you all want to do.  AT least the
public
  list won't be cluttered with noise about trying to save the WISP
industry
  from exinction.Sheesh.   Who cares about

Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-04-26 Thread Matt Liotta

Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

Read that document from the FCC again, there's HUGE areas of required
compliance that have NOT EVEN BEEN MENTIONED by anything to come from WISPA
nor anyone else I've seen, and we have 3 weeks to somehow bridge this gulf,
educate everyone, and try some give and take with the regulators.

  
I can't speak for the others that have been avoiding this thread. I've 
been avoiding it because there is no useful value in it. You refer to 
we like somehow both you and everyone else has been discussing this 
issue with no resolution. That is not the case. Some of us have already 
accepted the law and become compliant with it. In fact, the very people 
that are compliant with it are probably the same ones not discussing the 
issue.


CALEA is a requirement that we must all deal with. No sense discussing 
whether we should or not. Be compliant or don't be compliant, but stop 
arguing that any of us should do anything other then be compliant. If 
you or anyone else is choosing not to be compliant then that is your 
choice and I don't see why the rest of need to know or care why.


The thing I find interesting is what the practical impact of this is 
going to be on compliant organizations.


-Matt
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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-04-26 Thread Peter R.

Again I ask you, how do you do that?

How do you get hundreds to write in?

You wrote a note that could be massaged and sent to customers. (But then 
you would start losing customers almost immediately).  So people have a 
starting point.


The PR... you suggested that no one could write one... actually anyone 
can write one, you just couldn't send it without Board approval. Big 
diff.  The hard part is writing the letter. So any volunteers to write 
the letter to the News (AP and UPI)?


Any association including WISPA is made up of its members. So if enough 
of you feel that the action to take is to tell the FCC that we cannot 
comply, then please, now is the time to step up to the plate. Let your 
board know how you feel. Start drafting your PR message and your letter 
to the FCC. (WISPA works only because of Volunteers so step up and get 
drafting).


- Peter


Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


now.  I'm suggesting that we recruit those hundreds...errr..thousands to
file and say that they cannot comply.   This is not civil disobedience, this
is changing the POV of people who made bad policy.

They can't possibly undertake the task of taking down thousands of tiny
networks, which is what would change policies and possibly get pretty much
all of us exempted or changed to some non-mandated terms.

 



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Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?

2007-04-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

I think there are between 3000 and 6000 wisps.

I do NOT think CALEA is a bad thing.  Pretty hard to abuse it and there's NO 
reason for the ability to spy on bad guys to not exist.


Lastly, I just can't take it anymore!  Some of you guys loose more sleep 
over the little stuff.  I'm FAR more worried about my TAX money being spent 
to support welfare baby factories and studies to determine that the fruit 
fly is far more endowed than the average human male than I am about CALEA or 
the 477.


Sheesh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sky_is_Falling

I'm out of this argument permantely.  It's too religious for my tastes. 
Find something we CAN change and I'll be the first one in line to help 
change it.  Shoot, that's why I helped start wispa and have been on the 
board since it was a self appointed one!


Marlon
(509) 982-2181
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 12:49 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?




Wow.  I guess the title really is right.

When I participated in the debates about who was a WISP, and who could 
join
WISPA, we were very broad, and included community networks,  free 
networks,

big and small operators.. including the guy who is just a hobby type
network operator, but provides connection to his small town, community,
neighborhood, or even just block.

Now we've decided that the only people who count are the  big guys. 
The
professionals?  A few hundred?I know that lots of people didn't 
file

477 so that they could hide when the next thing came out... And it was no
time at all.   What will happen when the next mandate comes?   Will you
start referencing the scores of WISP's?   After the next one will it be
the dozens?

Marlon thinks there's 10,000 of us.

I think there's 20K of us, including all the wide array of informal, 
hobby,

free, or otherwise not set up an advertised for profit ISP.   So, we just
toss all them to the wolves to feed on first, before they get to us?  You
KNOW that the vast majority of these things are theoretically covered by
CALEA, but will never file a single thing, won't have any ability to 
assist

law enforcement, and will continue operating under the radar, possibly
getting destroyed one by one as circumstances bring them to light.

So, you think that the FCC is going OUTLAW delivering internet via 
wireless
because we discuss tactics about how to get them to face reality?   I 
don't
advocate lying to anyone.  If you can, by george, file you can.  But for 
the
rest of us..  File you can't.   And I'd encourage EVERY ONE OF THOSE 
15-20K

network operators to do the same.   Create the logjam that teaches
regulators when they've done wrong.   This is the most basic tenet of
democracy I can think of.   There is no holiness to the government or to
law they write. It does not come from God to them to us.All are 
subject

to negotiation and resistance by the governed.

I WILL DO JUST THAT, because I can't without changing my network.   But,
I'll just be offering my farewell email to the list soon UNLESS we stick
together, and unless WISPA and everyone else starts telling them to back 
off

and that the vast majority of operators actually cannot reasonably comply.
As far as I can tell, the only informal WISPA communication was that we 
can!


And if they shut me down... what will WISPA's stance be?   oh, he was a
renegade?   That looks like what you all want to do.  AT least the public
list won't be cluttered with noise about trying to save the WISP industry
from exinction.Sheesh.   Who cares about that radical issue?

I have written over and over and over that this isn't about me, nor my 
views
on the right or wrong... but about our industry and DEFENDING IT.And 
it

appears the biggest fight WISPA wants to have is the one to shut up those
who want to save their own skin, plus that of their fellow intrepid
operators.

I would encourage you to sit down and read the last FCC published document
on the topic of CALEA.  You need to understand that what we are supposedly
working on as compliance is not fixed AT ALL.  Just becoming presently
compliant is not a gauranteed long term or future solution.   The FCC
reserves the right to mandate PRECISELY what we are doing, and even in the
future to demand certification of the equipment we use.  They are 
resisting
that now, but but as history shows and the fact that they're trying to 
force

CALEA compliance on us, that they're as bendable as a willow in the wind.
This is not, as some people are attempting to portray it a minor, one 
time
bump in the road.   It's going to get bigger and it's going to continue 
to

be a source of heartburn even for those who can