RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Tom, Our group, when at Nortel, developed a WEB cache product. That was during the days when a typical business had only a 56k digital line to the Internet. It was very tough to do a generalized cache because very few sites had expiration tags on their HTML components. However, a lot more do today and aggressive caching (just hoping that the content at the component URL wouldn't change) isn't so necessary to get reliable caching...just cache the page pieces until their expiration dates. However, then, your observation was very prescient; we couldn't get any site to understand that caching of their common components would reduce the load on their servers. More recently, most have gravitated toward a decent discipline in that regard. Actually, it's quite fun to explore pages today. You can see those dates with FireFox Mozilla under TOOLS/PAGEINFO/MEDIA. When you scroll through the subwindow of components for the page (try YAHOO.COM for example) you'll see expirations on most that are a month or two away and what caching can do. If you want to get very esoteric and have a lot more fun (And, Travis, unless you've tried this...I don't to insult you efforts but I just found out about this amazing...simply amazing plug-in for Firefox...it should be helpful in debugging your Web page); https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1843/ The firebug debugger (download it and, thereafter, bring up the HTML debugging window with an F-12 key) gives you amazing insights into the page. For example, open the debugger window and select debug tab and, when you pass your cursor over the exposed understructure displayed in the debug window, it will highlight on the real page, above, the part associated with the understructure component. It's easy to find parents and children of things, and other stuff that would otherwise be an intractable mess. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:57 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Why is it politically correct for a Appliance vendor to charge for accelleration, and not an ISP, from a Net Neutrality perspective? As WISPs, shouldn't we be charging Microsoft, Google, and Yahoo, a price for offering cached services (on-net) to them, and reducing their bandwidth use of their broadband connections and improving their user's experiences on your network? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Hi, We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. and don't allow you access whatsoever. But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea who to contact, as we were approached by them. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: George Rogato wrote: You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your network. All free. Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about getting one. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Jonathan, You said snip In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like, unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display. Is this program or code for sale to wispa members? Maybe tell us a few details. I was hoping we could use it for late pay's, etc. Chuck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 6:16 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps John, will this code say any thing I want it to, like pay up or else If you sell it, any deals for members? Chuck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:12 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas. In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like, unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display. TVCABO bought it to deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing their byte cap limit. I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off, the up-sell is easier before than after. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Jonathan Schmidt wrote: True, Matt, often a better way. Now, what to do with P2P abusers? Sell them more bandwidth? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
CHUCK PROFITO wrote: Jonathan, You said snip In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like, unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display. Is this program or code for sale to wispa members? Maybe tell us a few details. I was hoping we could use it for late pay's, etc. Chuck I'd be interested in this as well. We could use it for our hotspot or free wifi users... George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Chuck, it's being used for that, expired billing credit card renewal dates, FCC E911 official limitation acknowledgements, etc. However, it's mostly been installed in very large cable operators. I'd be happy to talk off-line. It does scale smoothly from 1K to millions of subs. I'd be happy to describe a bit on how it works since that's more my area of expertise but don't want to abuse the group here. I'll tell you, though; it has really been a fun thing to use. I just saw a message that TVCABO, the Portuguese cable company, sent to some subscribers in a small area something like We are very pleased to have recovered in only 4 hours of service outage because of the road crew on the A2 that was digging not only the road but our cable. But, for taking four hours, we still apologize. As a test, WideOpenWest (300K data subs) has been testing an automated delivery of Amber Alerts from their XML feed from Amber Alert center. Every subscriber gets it only once and onlyk if it applies to their geographic area. They get 3 buttons: Close, MoreDetails, Opt-Out. The Opt-out makes sure they never receive another. That gets rid of the grumps. After a year and 10M alerts delivered, 2.8% opted out, 38% regularly click through for more details and on the DSLreports forum there have been no complaints and it's a grumpy forum. It auto feeds geo-targeted NOAA weather alerts or the full EAS, too, if desired. We're just experimenting with the best way to do that without irritating the subs. Anyway, it's fun to think that you can finally control the visible channel to the users' screens whenever you want...it's yours. . . . j o n a t h a n [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.perftech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 11:11 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps Jonathan, You said snip In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like, unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display. Is this program or code for sale to wispa members? Maybe tell us a few details. I was hoping we could use it for late pay's, etc. Chuck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 6:16 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps John, will this code say any thing I want it to, like pay up or else If you sell it, any deals for members? Chuck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:12 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas. In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like, unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display. TVCABO bought it to deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing their byte cap limit. I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off, the up-sell is easier before than after. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Jonathan Schmidt wrote: True, Matt, often a better way. Now, what to do with P2P abusers? Sell them more bandwidth? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.29/607 - Release Date: 12/28/2006 12:31 PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.29/607 - Release Date: 12/28/2006 12:31 PM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Jonathan Schmidt wrote: been installed in very large cable operators. I'd be happy to talk off-line. It does scale smoothly from 1K to millions of subs. There have been 2 people who've asked for some other detail on the list, and I'll add my name in the hat for that. With (now) 3 people asking for some detail, please provide a bit of detail onlist. It is (I assume) a server (proxy?) of sorts. What platform does the server run on? Does it require specialized hardware? What is required to get it running on the client end? Is it a special application, or is it a browser plugin type thing? -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Butch Evans wrote: On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Jonathan Schmidt wrote: been installed in very large cable operators. I'd be happy to talk off-line. It does scale smoothly from 1K to millions of subs. There have been 2 people who've asked for some other detail on the list, and I'll add my name in the hat for that. With (now) 3 people asking for some detail, please provide a bit of detail onlist. It is (I assume) a server (proxy?) of sorts. What platform does the server run on? Does it require specialized hardware? What is required to get it running on the client end? Is it a special application, or is it a browser plugin type thing? I just want to know how much it cost. Offlist with the answer if you feel it's not for public viewing. I might add, that I can't think of anyone who would not want to have this available to them. Seems like Jonathan Schmidt has a winner! George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Butch, with this list accepting my small excursion into what we do, the system isn't a proxy and is not installed in line with any traffic but is a 1U rack NOC-installed box. It must be associated with a router or switch which has all the subscribers downstream. Small slave devices, up to hundreds, can be distributed if the provider has a multiplicity of POPs...often the case when growth via acquisition has formed the ISP. It adds zero latency since no connections pass through it. It has multiple interfaces so can handle a multiplicity of simultaneous, even asymmetric, paths without extra hardware...up to multiple OC-192 connections. No client is required and the display appears on any targeted account's PC, Mac, browser, etc., and passes gateways, cascaded NATs, proxies, or other intervening devices. The platform is proprietary and the RTOS is the same system that Cisco uses under their IOS on their large new routers, QNX. It's self-healing, real-time updatable, failsafe. It's a cool Real Time Operating System if anyone is interested in a very fast, super reliable embedded system. http://www.qnx.com/ I made a presentation in a major session at the last Muniwireless show on its use in an automatic delivery of geo-targeted EAS alerts and geo-customized content filtering in municipal type Wi-Fi environments like would be desired around school properties, etc. If that's not on the Muniwireless site, I can make it available to anyone that would find it interesting. I've been interested in wireless for years...a ham, W8BZB for over 50 years, sold my last company to Nortel about the time they started early Wi-Fi products and got very familiar with it about 10 years ago. We parted Nortel 4 or 5 years ago and started this company. The heart of the system is an elaborate and gigantic message switch that assures delivery of exactly the content (any HTML anywhere) to targeted recipients' screens constrained to a tight schedule and the specified frequency. For example, a weather alert won't go to a sub out of the area and won't go to a sub in the area if they start browsing after it's expired. And, if they've viewed it, they won't be bothered again. Subscribers are very, very sensitive to disruption of their browsing context and won't put up with anything that interferes with the smooth process of their activity at the time. It's taken a couple of years with millions of experimental deliveries to tune it so that there is no grumbling. Interestingly, at the last MAAWG conference, http://www.maawg.org, sponsored by AOL, Yahoo, Microsoft, Ironport, etc., a discussion was very energetic on the subject of control of network abuse. Just shut them down if they're abusing the network was frequently heard. Then, several major MSOs popped up and started giving examples of horrible consequences after shutting down critical network access by putting the subscriber into a walled garden. For example, a subscriber had several PCs and a Vonage behind a gateway. The kid's PC was infected and engaged in a DNS attack. They turned off the DNS port in the modem...the Vonage lifeline and E911 went down and there were consequences. A polite communication (ahem) could have engaged the subscriber as a partner in remediation. WideOpenWest made a presentation at that last MAAWG conference as how they control abuse without suspending any potentially critical Internet serviceusing the yours truly product. I can find that presentation by Dave Walden of WideOpenWest if anyone is interested. . . . j o n a t h a n [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.perftech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 12:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Jonathan Schmidt wrote: been installed in very large cable operators. I'd be happy to talk off-line. It does scale smoothly from 1K to millions of subs. There have been 2 people who've asked for some other detail on the list, and I'll add my name in the hat for that. With (now) 3 people asking for some detail, please provide a bit of detail onlist. It is (I assume) a server (proxy?) of sorts. What platform does the server run on? Does it require specialized hardware? What is required to get it running on the client end? Is it a special application, or is it a browser plugin type thing? -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Thanks, George, we're really having a good time with this. I'll go off line with anything that even hints at commerce but feel relatively comfortable staying in my realm; how it works and other technical topics. The vast majority of deployments have been in cable MSOs. There is a very small version for medium ISPs and large hospitality systems (collections of large hotels in destination areas with 1000s of users). In Korea they are interested in advertising to subsidize rate lowering and there, they don't seem to mind screen clutter...and, in fact, enjoy it. As I mentioned, in Europe, byte-cap subscriptions are the broadband norm and it's used to alert a sub to upcoming exceedance and an offer to upgrade...much better received before the cap is exceeded and the rate drops to dial-up speeds. It's hard to sell anything to an enraged customer. So, I'll go look at the commercial side and be ready to continue that part off line. I'm really not familiar with that part, actually. . . . j o n a t h a n [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.perftech.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 1:07 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Butch Evans wrote: On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Jonathan Schmidt wrote: been installed in very large cable operators. I'd be happy to talk off-line. It does scale smoothly from 1K to millions of subs. There have been 2 people who've asked for some other detail on the list, and I'll add my name in the hat for that. With (now) 3 people asking for some detail, please provide a bit of detail onlist. It is (I assume) a server (proxy?) of sorts. What platform does the server run on? Does it require specialized hardware? What is required to get it running on the client end? Is it a special application, or is it a browser plugin type thing? I just want to know how much it cost. Offlist with the answer if you feel it's not for public viewing. I might add, that I can't think of anyone who would not want to have this available to them. Seems like Jonathan Schmidt has a winner! George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
If you peer with Akamai, LimeLight, Google, Yahoo, etc you won't pay for transit of their content and it will be fast... very fast. Yes, if your performance problem is to those locations. The problem is most transit providers already have good peering with them. The reason to cache, is to improve speed and reduce bandwidth across transit to all the other many smaller sites you need communication with, that your upstream does not have good peering with. You are also making the assumption that the direct Peering connection costs are less expensive than the transit costs to connect to them. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 11:38 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps You don't need to host Akamai boxes and/or rely solely on Akamai's customers content for an improvement in experience and a decrease in transit cost. IMHO, the easier way is to simply peer with the various CDNs. -Matt Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads, anti-virus vendor downloads, etc. It's really great since the latency vanishes and I note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the large XP window size with latencies to the original sites. However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of being cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai doesn't care. It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is likely the source of a lot of network load. It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation and, although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Hi, We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. and don't allow you access whatsoever. But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea who to contact, as we were approached by them. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: George Rogato wrote: You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your network. All free. Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about getting one. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Why is it politically correct for a Appliance vendor to charge for accelleration, and not an ISP, from a Net Neutrality perspective? As WISPs, shouldn't we be charging Microsoft, Google, and Yahoo, a price for offering cached services (on-net) to them, and reducing their bandwidth use of their broadband connections and improving their user's experiences on your network? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 9:27 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Hi, We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. and don't allow you access whatsoever. But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea who to contact, as we were approached by them. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: George Rogato wrote: You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your network. All free. Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about getting one. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Also, they add significant latency to ordinary traffic (the requested URLs have to be obtained in their entirety first then relayed) and you can't have more than a thousand up to several thousand simultaneous users...maybe not a problem... you can get around that with load balancing in the NOCs with multiple proxy servers. True, but that doesn't mean they're always bad for everyone. I used to run a transparent Web cache/proxy for our dialup users, but it was more for our benefit than theirs. (It was cheaper than adding more T1s at the time.) If you have plenty of backhaul capacity, and plenty of upstream capacity, nobody will get much benefit from Web caching. If one or both of those is a bit tight, the parts to build one are usually cheaper than a big expansion, and can get you through a tight spot (hopefully just as a temporary measure until you can do things the right way, but...) I did have one set up for our wireless network a couple years back, but it ended up being more trouble than it was worth, as I spent a lot of time programming in exceptions. (Example: one of our bigger customers at the time was a car dealership, and Web proxying broke a lot of their stuff talking back to Detroit.) Expect a lot of weird phone calls the first week or so after you turn one on. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
George Rogato wrote: You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your network. All free. Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about getting one. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Hi, We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. and don't allow you access whatsoever. But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea who to contact, as we were approached by them. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: George Rogato wrote: You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your network. All free. Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about getting one. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads, anti-virus vendor downloads, etc. It's really great since the latency vanishes and I note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the large XP window size with latencies to the original sites. However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of being cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai doesn't care. It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is likely the source of a lot of network load. It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation and, although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Hi, We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. and don't allow you access whatsoever. But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea who to contact, as we were approached by them. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: George Rogato wrote: You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your network. All free. Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about getting one. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/605 - Release Date: 12/27/2006 12:21 PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/605 - Release Date: 12/27/2006 12:21 PM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
You don't need to host Akamai boxes and/or rely solely on Akamai's customers content for an improvement in experience and a decrease in transit cost. IMHO, the easier way is to simply peer with the various CDNs. If you peer with Akamai, LimeLight, Google, Yahoo, etc you won't pay for transit of their content and it will be fast... very fast. -Matt Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads, anti-virus vendor downloads, etc. It's really great since the latency vanishes and I note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the large XP window size with latencies to the original sites. However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of being cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai doesn't care. It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is likely the source of a lot of network load. It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation and, although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Hi, We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. and don't allow you access whatsoever. But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea who to contact, as we were approached by them. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: George Rogato wrote: You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your network. All free. Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about getting one. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
True, Matt, often a better way. Now, what to do with P2P abusers? . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps You don't need to host Akamai boxes and/or rely solely on Akamai's customers content for an improvement in experience and a decrease in transit cost. IMHO, the easier way is to simply peer with the various CDNs. If you peer with Akamai, LimeLight, Google, Yahoo, etc you won't pay for transit of their content and it will be fast... very fast. -Matt Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads, anti-virus vendor downloads, etc. It's really great since the latency vanishes and I note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the large XP window size with latencies to the original sites. However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of being cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai doesn't care. It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is likely the source of a lot of network load. It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation and, although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Hi, We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. and don't allow you access whatsoever. But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea who to contact, as we were approached by them. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: George Rogato wrote: You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your network. All free. Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about getting one. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
We typically make customer contact when a customer shows up as a regular on our 1Gbyte Honor Roll (a daily list of everyone with = 1Gbyte in or out in the past 24 hrs). Often we find they are infected, but sometimes P2Pers. We crank down their CIR if they don't clean up until they are off that 1GByte list. Rich - Original Message - From: Jonathan Schmidt To: 'WISPA General List' Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 11:37 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps True, Matt, often a better way. Now, what to do with P2P abusers? . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps You don't need to host Akamai boxes and/or rely solely on Akamai's customers content for an improvement in experience and a decrease in transit cost. IMHO, the easier way is to simply peer with the various CDNs. If you peer with Akamai, LimeLight, Google, Yahoo, etc you won't pay for transit of their content and it will be fast... very fast. -Matt Jonathan Schmidt wrote: Hi, and Happy New Year, all, before I forget The Akamai caches content that folks pay them to put on it which includes stuff like Microsoft updates, Real Player updates and downloads, anti-virus vendor downloads, etc. It's really great since the latency vanishes and I note here that I experience downloads of updates of 4 to 5 megabits per second on the cable modem...a rate that wouldn't be possible even with the large XP window size with latencies to the original sites. However, it won't cache most sites since they are often not capable of being cached without breaking the experience for the user and, besides, Akamai doesn't care. It won't cache P2P traffic like BitTorrent or Napster, traffic that is likely the source of a lot of network load. It is a completely different animal in a different sphere of operation and, although valuable, isn't an ad-hoc cache. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:27 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Hi, We've had one for almost 5 years now... but there isn't anything to play with. They ship you three 1u servers and a Cisco switch. You plug everything in and turn it on. They do all the admin, config, setup, etc. and don't allow you access whatsoever. But it does work great. Microsoft updates come VERY fast (over 10Mbps speeds) and many other sites are just as fast. However, I have no idea who to contact, as we were approached by them. Travis Microserv David E. Smith wrote: George Rogato wrote: You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your network. All free. Any idea on how many subs you need before this becomes an option? I've heard that Akamai will do this, and I love having new toys in my NOC to play with, but I've never been able to find out just how you go about getting one. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas. In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like, unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display. TVCABO bought it to deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing their byte cap limit. I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off, the up-sell is easier before than after. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Jonathan Schmidt wrote: True, Matt, often a better way. Now, what to do with P2P abusers? Sell them more bandwidth? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
John, will this code say any thing I want it to, like pay up or else If you sell it, any deals for members? Chuck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:12 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas. In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like, unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display. TVCABO bought it to deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing their byte cap limit. I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off, the up-sell is easier before than after. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Jonathan Schmidt wrote: True, Matt, often a better way. Now, what to do with P2P abusers? Sell them more bandwidth? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Chuck, maybe that's ...sort of...well, the American spirit. I'd rather anything than a rope around me. I pay $6/mo., or more, to my VoIP provider so that I have no limit on calls (to Europe or Asia!) rather than have to pay a couple cents a minute over 500 minutes a month. OK, so $22 vs. $16 isn't a big deal, but it demonstrates my point. I know I'm losing. But, I can't stand thinking about it. So, I pay for unlimited time. Perhaps that's why the unlimited Internet byte access is more interesting here to subscribers than in Europe or Latin America. Who knows? I get mad just thinking about it and feel better knowing that it's not a problem for me...I pay and feel unconstrained. A simple $6 is certainly cheaper than a psychiatrist for five minutes. Come to think of it, that won't even buy 5 minutes from one of them. Such a deal! Anyway, it's an interesting difference between the cultures as to what is a comfortable subscription plan. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CHUCK PROFITO Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 8:16 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps John, will this code say any thing I want it to, like pay up or else If you sell it, any deals for members? Chuck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 3:12 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps Wow, Matt, you're well equipped with the good ideas. In fact, we make a targeted messaging product that inserts a toolbar-like, unobtrusive message into subscriber browsers display. TVCABO bought it to deploy all over Portugal...primarily to upsell their subscribers nearing their byte cap limit. I've seen several comments on the WISPA list that generally are very hostel to byte cap subscriptions but that is more the rule than the exception in Europe and Latin America we've found and, when a subscriber's near cut-off, the up-sell is easier before than after. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Jonathan Schmidt wrote: True, Matt, often a better way. Now, what to do with P2P abusers? Sell them more bandwidth? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/605 - Release Date: 12/27/2006 12:21 PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/605 - Release Date: 12/27/2006 12:21 PM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
I have two things in place right now. MRTG type data coming right off of the routers. http://64.146.186.1:81/graphs/iface/eth1-upstream/ http://64.146.146.1:81/graphs/iface/eth1%2Duplink/ And, I have a cool bit tracking program that uses the netflow data generated by my routers. http://radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack/topusers.php The next upgrade I'll get will be a column added to the stats so that I can see the top 5 or 10 ports that each customer uses each day. I'll know a lot more about what they are doing when I get that data. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Andrew Niemantsverdriet [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps How are you guys tracking usage? What program are you using to measure it and are you measureing every bit or an average? On 12/22/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have not had the guts to do what Marlon does. But that doesn't mean there isn't merit in his method. Part of the reason is we put in place technology that allows the use of available bandwdith with limited impact to other users, therefore taking away some of the need to charge for it, if it was jsut going unused any way. in otherwords Bandwdith allocated on a fair weighted queuing priority basis. The advatnage of Marlon's model, is he has the data to pick and chose customers. The high bandwdith hogs gets given to the competition or pay. The second a network starts reaching capacity and the market penetration doesn't, it becomes feasible to be happy not keeping all customers, instead you pick the most profitable customers. The facts are the the network supports it or it doesn't, the provider can afford to upgrade or they can't. What I'm learning is, selling 10mbps peak speeds allows you to play the Comcast game, and beat them at it. I'm selling unlimited now, but its important to track the usage. That might have to change, as people start using the links to replace their VCRs. The reality is, eventuality one will have to port limit or charge per bit. I'm jsut avoiding that day until it has to happen, so I don't lose customers for the greater good, unless I have to. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in the long term. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Are you paying extra for bursting, or just the overall bandwidth used? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps But a cahing server if you can't afford the bandwidth. Seriously, your model, the old model, is about dead and buried. Cache serves are great. When I used to use one it saved me about 25% on my bandwidth costs. We tried to do this with the MT routers, but they actually seemed to slow things down. I know that they (and Butch) claimed it was really faster. However, the look and feel was noticably slower, and perception sometimes trumps reality. I've been thinking of putting some in again. How much does it cost to watch a movie across the net using your system? No idea. But it's an up and coming reality. I see it as having an even bigger impact on the network than Napster did. And this time, there's cool new technology anyone's going to be able to move to to help deal with the usage issues. AND bandwidth costs don't seem to be sliding down much, if at all, these days. The last 12 to 18 months seem to have stablized things, at least around here. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Wrong answer, It should be the other way around. Because we don't bit charge, we manage our network to accomadate our users needs. I would imagine that if you were here telling your subs that they had to pay more, they would be coming this way. Yeppers. They can and they will. But not all of them. Only the bandwidth hogs. Look at it like this, choke a customer to 512k instead of 2000k. Is that customer going to do any less on the network? Nope. He's gonna do what he wanted to do all alone. It'll just take him longer. I've got almost 400 broadband users on my network. At 512k that means I'd need 200ish mbps to take care of them if they all used it all the time. Instead, we're actually averaging about 1.5 in, .5 out on the main site. .8 in and .2 out here in Odessa. So my 400 broadband users are averaging 2.5 megs in and 1 out. That's a LOT better than even the 10 megs you'll need if my top ten users move to your service. AND when selling speed, you are in direct competion with the companies that own the bulk of the network. Who wants to try to compete agains the telco or the cable co? Yikes. Just for kicks, lets look at the last 7 days here on my network: Odessa: Max In: 3.18 Mb Average In: 1.22 Mb Current In: 1.02 Mb Max Out: 737.05 Kb Average Out: 275.54 Kb Current Out: 172.59 Kb Ephrata: Max In: 6.53 Mb Average In: 1.69 Mb Current In: 2.04 Mb Max Out: 2.35 Mb Average Out: 479.40 Kb Current Out: 823.21 Kb So, even at this rate, I'm still on track for a max usage of 400 users vs. your 20 users at 512k. AND I don't HAVE to try to provide that 512k for all of my users. Sure they expect that today, heck, many get mad when they don't see the 2000k they usually do. I can honestly tell them that I'm not selling speed. I'm selling capacity. For me, adding speed is fairly cheap. Adding capacity costs too much. I'm not scared of my subs usage, I've been building out specifically for their future high usage needs. You should be scared of this. At some point you'll have to put a limit on them. Ever figured out how many 128k users it takes to tie up a $500 per month t-1??? At $30 to $40 per month the numbers just don't work. Now, don't go telling me about your amazing $20 per mbps bandwith deal. Cause we BOTH know that it's not really costing you that. There are also transport fees etc. that have to be figured in to get an apples to apples comparison. Sure I pay $200 per meg of usage here in Odessa. But I also pay $800 per month for the circuit that'll carry those megs! Bottom line, you need to get over the hump of not having enough subs to pay for the extra bandwidth where you can get a much better per meg rate. Get more subs! Grin. working on it! George Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Thanks! To you and your's too! Yeah, I'm working on it. Right now we're in talks with the heavy users to see what amounts won't run them off but will make up the difference between the 4 gig included model and what they are really consuming. I'm sure we'll run some off. But the goal isn't to chase them away. It's really to get them paying for what they are really using. Best of both worlds. Keep the customer and upsell them based on real world data. Those that won't upsell, will move to someone else and totally screw up the customers on their ap's and their bandwidth needs. In the end, my customers win. See how clever I really am? I've got some folks here arguing about black and white. All the while I'm working in shades of the rainbow! I'd better remember that next time I let myself get sucked into a my dad can beat up your dad argument! hehehehe Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Hi Marlon, Merry Christmas to you and your family! Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers. You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick around. Jeff -Original Message- From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subj: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:29 pm Size: 3K To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs. At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of my costs. He needs to pay more. Or, he needs to get his service from you. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per --- message truncated --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Thanks Jeff, We're looking at those models right now. The one that's already in place is 60 gigs for $350. Looks like 10 gigs will go to $100. And something similar in the middle. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: John Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2006 9:35 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon , why the additive pricing for additional Gigs? Why wouldn't you just charge x$ per gig, since that is essentially what you are being charged by your upstream. If someone is using an average of 161 kbps constantly for a month, that sounds a lot like a T-1. Speakeasy is doing T-1s to the Internet for $399, others are doing SDSL at $250-299 per month, so if you are in the neighborhood, that should be expected. Anothe thing to think about is tiering your pricing 4 Gigs$49 10 Gigs $99 50 Gigs $299 or something like that. John Thomas Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs. And some are legitimately using that much data. In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it. Those at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but that's gonna be ok. They mess things up for everyone around them. Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do. For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little extra money on them. S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month. Gigs 10 through 20 at $10 per gig. Over 20, call for a price and we'll work something out that works for all of us. We really need it to naturally hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did with the first big customer. Thougths Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: I know that they (and Butch) claimed it was No...I think you are confusing me with someone else. :-) I have told MANY people that proxy service on MT is riddled with problems, not the least of which is speed. One of the first things you had me help you with was removing the proxy server on the MT. Having said that, it is possible to build a squid proxy (outside the MT) that can actually make things faster. But, as you said, perception will be that it is slower (sometimes), so the reality isn't relevant. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Do you have the option of changing to a service where you pay a certain amount per month for a certain amount of bandwidth, and then have the capability to burst beyond that for an additional price? In that model, QoS becomes critical and you can limit your customers based upon their rate-class and either deny or very carefully measure how much you burst. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Thanks! To you and your's too! Yeah, I'm working on it. Right now we're in talks with the heavy users to see what amounts won't run them off but will make up the difference between the 4 gig included model and what they are really consuming. I'm sure we'll run some off. But the goal isn't to chase them away. It's really to get them paying for what they are really using. Best of both worlds. Keep the customer and upsell them based on real world data. Those that won't upsell, will move to someone else and totally screw up the customers on their ap's and their bandwidth needs. In the end, my customers win. See how clever I really am? I've got some folks here arguing about black and white. All the while I'm working in shades of the rainbow! I'd better remember that next time I let myself get sucked into a my dad can beat up your dad argument! hehehehe Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Hi Marlon, Merry Christmas to you and your family! Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers. You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick around. Jeff -Original Message- From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subj: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:29 pm Size: 3K To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs. At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of my costs. He needs to pay more. Or, he needs to get his service from you. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
It's designed to burst. That gives us a relatively low monthly cost with really fast service. So we pay based on usage. But it can, and does, burst very high. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:09 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps Are you paying extra for bursting, or just the overall bandwidth used? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:06 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps But a cahing server if you can't afford the bandwidth. Seriously, your model, the old model, is about dead and buried. Cache serves are great. When I used to use one it saved me about 25% on my bandwidth costs. We tried to do this with the MT routers, but they actually seemed to slow things down. I know that they (and Butch) claimed it was really faster. However, the look and feel was noticably slower, and perception sometimes trumps reality. I've been thinking of putting some in again. How much does it cost to watch a movie across the net using your system? No idea. But it's an up and coming reality. I see it as having an even bigger impact on the network than Napster did. And this time, there's cool new technology anyone's going to be able to move to to help deal with the usage issues. AND bandwidth costs don't seem to be sliding down much, if at all, these days. The last 12 to 18 months seem to have stablized things, at least around here. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Wrong answer, It should be the other way around. Because we don't bit charge, we manage our network to accomadate our users needs. I would imagine that if you were here telling your subs that they had to pay more, they would be coming this way. Yeppers. They can and they will. But not all of them. Only the bandwidth hogs. Look at it like this, choke a customer to 512k instead of 2000k. Is that customer going to do any less on the network? Nope. He's gonna do what he wanted to do all alone. It'll just take him longer. I've got almost 400 broadband users on my network. At 512k that means I'd need 200ish mbps to take care of them if they all used it all the time. Instead, we're actually averaging about 1.5 in, .5 out on the main site. .8 in and .2 out here in Odessa. So my 400 broadband users are averaging 2.5 megs in and 1 out. That's a LOT better than even the 10 megs you'll need if my top ten users move to your service. AND when selling speed, you are in direct competion with the companies that own the bulk of the network. Who wants to try to compete agains the telco or the cable co? Yikes. Just for kicks, lets look at the last 7 days here on my network: Odessa: Max In: 3.18 Mb Average In: 1.22 Mb Current In: 1.02 Mb Max Out: 737.05 Kb Average Out: 275.54 Kb Current Out: 172.59 Kb Ephrata: Max In: 6.53 Mb Average In: 1.69 Mb Current In: 2.04 Mb Max Out: 2.35 Mb Average Out: 479.40 Kb Current Out: 823.21 Kb So, even at this rate, I'm still on track for a max usage of 400 users vs. your 20 users at 512k. AND I don't HAVE to try to provide that 512k for all of my users. Sure they expect that today, heck, many get mad when they don't see the 2000k they usually do. I can honestly tell them that I'm not selling speed. I'm selling capacity. For me, adding speed is fairly cheap. Adding capacity costs too much. I'm not scared of my subs usage, I've been building out specifically for their future high usage needs. You should be scared of this. At some point you'll have to put a limit on them. Ever figured out how many 128k users it takes to tie up a $500 per month t-1??? At $30 to $40 per month the numbers just don't work. Now, don't go telling me about your amazing $20 per mbps bandwith deal. Cause we BOTH know that it's not really costing you that. There are also transport fees etc. that have to be figured in to get an apples to apples comparison. Sure I pay $200 per meg of usage here in Odessa
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
- Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:37 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: I know that they (and Butch) claimed it was No...I think you are confusing me with someone else. :-) I have told MANY people that proxy service on MT is riddled with problems, not the least of which is speed. One of the first things you had me help you with was removing the proxy server on the MT. Yeah, I know you took it off for me. As I recall the conversation you said that we could do some testing that would show that it really did speed things up. But it also caused a delay when the page was starting to load and that made it feel slower. Did I get this wrong? Having said that, it is possible to build a squid proxy (outside the MT) that can actually make things faster. But, as you said, perception will be that it is slower (sometimes), so the reality isn't relevant. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
- Original Message - From: Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps Do you have the option of changing to a service where you pay a certain amount per month for a certain amount of bandwidth, and then have the capability to burst beyond that for an additional price? At one location, maybe. At the other one, no. Realistically, what we're doing is working very well for us. I just need to find a way to deal with some over the top users. And EVERYONE has to deal with them in one way or another. I'm trying to be a bit more creative maybe. In that model, QoS becomes critical and you can limit your customers based upon their rate-class and either deny or very carefully measure how much you burst. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Thanks! To you and your's too! Yeah, I'm working on it. Right now we're in talks with the heavy users to see what amounts won't run them off but will make up the difference between the 4 gig included model and what they are really consuming. I'm sure we'll run some off. But the goal isn't to chase them away. It's really to get them paying for what they are really using. Best of both worlds. Keep the customer and upsell them based on real world data. Those that won't upsell, will move to someone else and totally screw up the customers on their ap's and their bandwidth needs. In the end, my customers win. See how clever I really am? I've got some folks here arguing about black and white. All the while I'm working in shades of the rainbow! I'd better remember that next time I let myself get sucked into a my dad can beat up your dad argument! hehehehe Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Hi Marlon, Merry Christmas to you and your family! Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers. You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick around. Jeff -Original Message- From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subj: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:29 pm Size: 3K To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs. At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of my costs. He needs to pay more. Or, he needs to get his service from you. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
You could route your high traffic folks out the one connection, and ratchet their committed rate down to protect your peak usage periods. They could burst when bandwidth was available without hurting you. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:51 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps - Original Message - From: Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:30 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps Do you have the option of changing to a service where you pay a certain amount per month for a certain amount of bandwidth, and then have the capability to burst beyond that for an additional price? At one location, maybe. At the other one, no. Realistically, what we're doing is working very well for us. I just need to find a way to deal with some over the top users. And EVERYONE has to deal with them in one way or another. I'm trying to be a bit more creative maybe. In that model, QoS becomes critical and you can limit your customers based upon their rate-class and either deny or very carefully measure how much you burst. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:16 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Thanks! To you and your's too! Yeah, I'm working on it. Right now we're in talks with the heavy users to see what amounts won't run them off but will make up the difference between the 4 gig included model and what they are really consuming. I'm sure we'll run some off. But the goal isn't to chase them away. It's really to get them paying for what they are really using. Best of both worlds. Keep the customer and upsell them based on real world data. Those that won't upsell, will move to someone else and totally screw up the customers on their ap's and their bandwidth needs. In the end, my customers win. See how clever I really am? I've got some folks here arguing about black and white. All the while I'm working in shades of the rainbow! I'd better remember that next time I let myself get sucked into a my dad can beat up your dad argument! hehehehe Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:46 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Hi Marlon, Merry Christmas to you and your family! Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers. You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick around. Jeff -Original Message- From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subj: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:29 pm Size: 3K To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs. At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of my costs. He needs to pay more. Or, he needs to get his service from you. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Wrong answer, It should be the other way around. Because we don't bit charge, we manage our network to accomadate our users needs. I would imagine that if you were here telling your subs that they had to pay more, they would be coming this way. Yeppers. They can and they will. But not all of them. Only the bandwidth hogs. Look at it like this, choke a customer to 512k instead of 2000k. Is that customer going to do any less on the network? Nope. He's gonna do what he wanted to do all alone. It'll just take him longer. I've got almost 400 broadband users on my network. At 512k that means I'd need 200ish mbps to take care of them if they all used it all the time. Instead, we're actually averaging about 1.5 in, .5 out on the main site. .8 in and .2 out here in Odessa. So my 400 broadband users are averaging 2.5 megs in and 1 out. That's a LOT better than even the 10 megs you'll need if my top ten users move to your service. AND when selling speed, you are in direct competion with the companies that own the bulk of the network. Who wants to try to compete agains the telco or the cable co? Yikes. Just for kicks, lets look at the last 7 days here on my network: Odessa: Max In: 3.18 Mb Average In: 1.22 Mb Current In: 1.02 Mb Max Out: 737.05 Kb Average Out: 275.54 Kb Current Out: 172.59 Kb Ephrata: Max In: 6.53 Mb Average In: 1.69 Mb Current In: 2.04 Mb Max Out: 2.35 Mb Average Out: 479.40 Kb Current Out: 823.21 Kb So, even at this rate, I'm still on track for a max usage of 400 users vs. your 20 users at 512k. AND I don't HAVE to try to provide that 512k for all of my users. Sure they expect that today, heck, many get mad when they don't see the 2000k they usually do. I can honestly tell them that I'm not selling speed. I'm selling capacity. For me, adding speed is fairly cheap. Adding capacity costs too much. I'm not scared of my subs usage, I've been building out specifically for their future high usage needs. You should be scared of this. At some point you'll have to put a limit on them. Ever figured out how many 128k users it takes to tie up a $500 per month t-1??? At $30 to $40 per month the numbers just don't work. Now, don't go telling me about your amazing $20 per mbps bandwith deal. Cause we BOTH know that it's not really costing you that. There are also transport fees etc. that have to be figured in to get an apples to apples comparison. Sure I pay $200 per meg of usage here in Odessa. But I also pay $800 per month for the circuit that'll carry those megs! Nah, I've been running wide open full bore as fast as the ap will let the subs go since the very beginning. And I have yet to have anyone take advantage of or break the system. Of course, the person that does p2p does have to be attended to from time to time, we just slow their upload speeds and that usually solves the issue. Most of those people can't find enough stuff to download and those that do usually run out of disk space pretty quick. It's the upload that can be problematic. With almost 700 users, I've hardly ever seen my 15 meg pipe get 50% saturated. If I had to start telling my subs that they reached their bit usage limit, there would be one more thing that my competition cold use against me. In a market that has Qwest heavily pushing DSL and Charter with their cable modems package deal promotions, I think it's hard to try to exert limitations, especially the ones that make the subs pay more, without some negativity. George I have some new data. Let me first say that I agree with you. There probably would be some uproar in your customer base. However, have you read the TOS for Charter? They have a bit limit last I knew. And quest OWNS the backhaul etc. Trying to compete with them on speed and capacity issues will get harder and harder as time goes on. Now, for at least one of my heavy users. He subscribed to a service that automatically sent 2 to 4 movies per day to his kids. That explained his high usage right nicely. Davinci Code was almost 8 gigs. What are YOU gonna do when your users start to use this service? They are gonna say the same thing *I'd* say. I understand George, but I'm paying for 512k so you need to deliver 512k. It doesn't matter if I use it 24/7, that's the deal we made when I hired you to provide my internet. I've always know that usage was going to keep going up. As long as costs go down at the same rate as the usage goes up, we'll be ok. But what's a guy gonna do if the usage goes up faster than the rates go down? IPTV is coming guys. Your usage today is NOTHING compared to what it'll be in a few years. Our radio
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
I just wanted to weigh in here and add that filesharing and p2p is really a main driver of the isp business model today and we're going to have to do something to pull this in and make it equitable for everyone. If you think about this, what we're all doing here is paying for expensive dedicated service - eg: marlon's 10mbps pipe, my 45mbps pipe, or whatever - we're paying carriers and large network operators for truely unlimited service at the subscribed port speeds, and we pay a premium for it. In return, we are (usually) getting a quality that justifies the price (otherwise I'd just buy piles of $14.95/mo dsl circuits!). So what we then do is turn it around is add oversubscription to this model so that we can pay someone $400/mbps/month or whatever and then sell this for effectively $20/mbps/month. It used to be that the average broadband user would use say %15 or less of their sustained maximum transfer thruput - which means that they used their 1.5mbps or whatever at full rate for only brief periods of time. This allowed oversubscription to work effectively because the chances were often excellent that full rate transfers weren't being done by a signifigant percentage of others at the same time. But now with the growing demands of p2p/filesharing, this is broken. I routinely have customers now running full blast 24x7 throught the day and night with no letup or break ever and I strongly suspect that most if not all of it is simply wanton copyright violations and wasted downloads of stuff they won't ever even look at anyways. The field service calls I make for support purposes strongly support this notion because I usually get to see the customer pc and of the ones I see, more than %95 are just loaded up to the brim with ripped off songs and movies from limewire,kazaa,edonkey, you name it. The corresponding spyware/junkware infestations and crashing, slowdowns and malfunctions are just desserts of course, and I have never ever seen anyone just using these programs for 'legal purposes'. But back to the main point here - we certainly want to provide good customer service and an overall good user experience. But the discussion needs to be had concerning the definition of what we're selling people, and it cannot continue to be an unlimited pipe that spews forth as much data as you want all the time. I have never used the word 'unlimited' in any advertising and have never promised or alluded to that word at any time. In my business at least, I am leaning twords implementing 'content labeling' of the services offered which would work something like the ingredients on the box of corn flakes, and would describe all the features and restrictions of every service I offer. I think that, longer term, we're all going to have to do this (internet service content labeling) because otherwise, filesharing is going to overrun us all. Shared service is not shared if you're hogging it 24x7 Mike- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Marlon, Merry Christmas to you and your family! Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers. You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick around. Jeff -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Marlon / et al wisp ceo's, yes. your raw cost per mb is going to skyrocket once your users start watching iptv over your trunkline. I'm going to be posting compression and streaming solutions at http://iptv-coverage.com too. so please use my new site to archive your own findings as well. that way we'll have a central resource for IPTV related wisp issues. bob kim -- Robert Q Kim, Wireless Internet Provider http://evdo-coverage.com/satellite-wireless-internet.html http://evdo-coverage.com 2611 S. Pacific Coast Highway 101 Suite 203 Cardiff by the Sea, CA 92007 206 984 0880 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Yeah, I know you took it off for me. As I recall the conversation you said that we could do some testing that would show that it really did speed things up. But it also caused a delay when the page was starting to load and that made it feel slower. Did I get this wrong? I think you have it right. Using a cache (even on Mikrotik) really does speed up browsing for end users. Using a cache, also, makes browsing feel slower, because of the lag between the click and the first part of the page being displayed. This part is true with any type of cache server (proxy). What I was referring to, is the fact that running the proxy server on a Mikrotik is (and always has been) problematic for various reasons. Having said that, Mikrotik is in the process of testing a new caching proxy server (my understanding is that they are coding this one from the ground up). I don't know how that one will work out. But, either way, I generally recommend against building a proxy server of any kind. YMMV. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
- Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 8:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps On Tue, 26 Dec 2006, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Yeah, I know you took it off for me. As I recall the conversation you said that we could do some testing that would show that it really did speed things up. But it also caused a delay when the page was starting to load and that made it feel slower. Did I get this wrong? I think you have it right. Using a cache (even on Mikrotik) really does speed up browsing for end users. Using a cache, also, makes browsing feel slower, because of the lag between the click and the first part of the page being displayed. This part is true with any type of cache server (proxy). FYI, that is NOT how things worked with my Cobalt CacheRAQ. It was amazing how quickly things snapped up on the page with it vs. without it. Too bad it was an older unit and I could only use it by changing the gateway addresses. And it had heat related lockup issues in the summer. I'd love to put another one in. It was money very well spent. Oh yeah, the reports that it generated every day were very useful. What I was referring to, is the fact that running the proxy server on a Mikrotik is (and always has been) problematic for various reasons. Having said that, Mikrotik is in the process of testing a new caching proxy server (my understanding is that they are coding this one from the ground up). I don't know how that one will work out. But, either way, I generally recommend against building a proxy server of any kind. YMMV. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ Mikrotik Certified Consultant (http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Marlon K. Schafer wrote: FYI, that is NOT how things worked with my Cobalt CacheRAQ. It was amazing how quickly things snapped up on the page with it vs. without it. Too bad it was an older unit and I could only use it by changing the gateway addresses. And it had heat related lockup issues in the summer. I'd love to put another one in. It was money very well spent. Funny how fast time goes by, now that you mentioned it, We had a cacheRAQ as well. You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your network. All free. For your final solution on how do you allow subs to download more bits and not raise your upstream cost, the solution is all pretty simple with what you have in place right now. You mentioned that Butch was your guy. Seeing Butch is your guy, I am assuming you have a MT box at your noc. Best solution is to do some bandwidth rules limiting your netowrk to never go more than x megs and to make your users burst or fall back. I would still consider a caching server to handle the videos just the same. That ought to shave something. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Unfortunately, caching servers break a lot of sites' content unintentionally. That is, they have to request a page from the requested site as if it were the exact same configuration (same browser, same OS, same plug-ins, etc., as the requestor) and then relay it to the requesting subscriber as if it were the destination site knowing that same information. Also, they add significant latency to ordinary traffic (the requested URLs have to be obtained in their entirety first then relayed) and you can't have more than a thousand up to several thousand simultaneous users...maybe not a problem... you can get around that with load balancing in the NOCs with multiple proxy servers. I'd be interested in learning of any well-performing installations in broadband. I'd be especially interested in learning if the heavy traffic users (P2P?) ever loaded a page that was on a regular site to inflict heavy traffic. . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:49 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Back in the olden days of dialup, I used to get fantastic results from our caching server. It was just a PIII machine with a whopping 640meg of memory, but it did a good job. Page views were noticeably faster when things were setup correctly. When I was in a backbone pinch, I used a caching server fed by a cable modem to offload a large percentage of my web surfing traffic. Worked fine until Charter's upload degraded so bad that external webmail (hotmail, yahoo) quit working. Got our fiber backbone installed at that time and didn't need it after that, but it did the job in a pinch. It is actually fairly simple to get a caching server running nowadays, compared to what we used to have to go through. CentOS seems to have a pretty decent squid caching server implementation in the install list ready to run. Once you get your localnets in the ACL list and make a few tweaks, it is off and running and ready for production. With servers so cheap, I am thinking about building one with 2 or 4gig of memory and setting it up to cache big objects (YouTube videos, Yahoo videos, 5meg objects, etc) and forcing all of my residential customers that are on private IP ranges to go through it. My connection is unmetered, so I don't really save that much by doing it as far as bandwidth consumption goes, but I'm up to 18-19meg at peak times on my 20 meg connection, so it might buy me a few months before I have to add capacity. Matt Larsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] George Rogato wrote: Marlon K. Schafer wrote: FYI, that is NOT how things worked with my Cobalt CacheRAQ. It was amazing how quickly things snapped up on the page with it vs. without it. Too bad it was an older unit and I could only use it by changing the gateway addresses. And it had heat related lockup issues in the summer. I'd love to put another one in. It was money very well spent. Funny how fast time goes by, now that you mentioned it, We had a cacheRAQ as well. You know Akamai is also an option. As I recall they require you to have x number of subs and then send you their boxes to be set up on your network. All free. For your final solution on how do you allow subs to download more bits and not raise your upstream cost, the solution is all pretty simple with what you have in place right now. You mentioned that Butch was your guy. Seeing Butch is your guy, I am assuming you have a MT box at your noc. Best solution is to do some bandwidth rules limiting your netowrk to never go more than x megs and to make your users burst or fall back. I would still consider a caching server to handle the videos just the same. That ought to shave something. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/604 - Release Date: 12/26/2006 12:23 PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.28/604 - Release Date: 12/26/2006 12:23 PM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Marlon , why the additive pricing for additional Gigs? Why wouldn't you just charge x$ per gig, since that is essentially what you are being charged by your upstream. If someone is using an average of 161 kbps constantly for a month, that sounds a lot like a T-1. Speakeasy is doing T-1s to the Internet for $399, others are doing SDSL at $250-299 per month, so if you are in the neighborhood, that should be expected. Anothe thing to think about is tiering your pricing 4 Gigs$49 10 Gigs $99 50 Gigs $299 or something like that. John Thomas Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs. And some are legitimately using that much data. In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it. Those at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but that's gonna be ok. They mess things up for everyone around them. Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do. For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little extra money on them. S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month. Gigs 10 through 20 at $10 per gig. Over 20, call for a price and we'll work something out that works for all of us. We really need it to naturally hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did with the first big customer. Thougths Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] bits per mbps
Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs. And some are legitimately using that much data. In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it. Those at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but that's gonna be ok. They mess things up for everyone around them. Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do. For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little extra money on them. S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month. Gigs 10 through 20 at $10 per gig. Over 20, call for a price and we'll work something out that works for all of us. We really need it to naturally hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did with the first big customer. Thougths Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in the long term. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs. And some are legitimately using that much data. In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it. Those at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but that's gonna be ok. They mess things up for everyone around them. Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do. For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little extra money on them. S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month. Gigs 10 through 20 at $10 per gig. Over 20, call for a price and we'll work something out that works for all of us. We really need it to naturally hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did with the first big customer. Thougths Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Yes, change to a speed model like everyone else (Cable, DSL, WISP) and don't worry about it any more. :) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs. And some are legitimately using that much data. In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it. Those at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but that's gonna be ok. They mess things up for everyone around them. Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do. For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little extra money on them. S, my new idea is, gigs 5 through 10 would be at $5 per month. Gigs 10 through 20 at $10 per gig. Over 20, call for a price and we'll work something out that works for all of us. We really need it to naturally hit around $350 at the 50 gig level to match what we did with the first big customer. Thougths Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
- Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. OK, so, when I pay $250 per mbps that works out to how many $ per month? I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in the long term. I understand all about that. Now, lets look at this from a pragmatic standpoint. Reality rearing it's ugly head into the average business model. You say that my abusers are at 161 kbps. That means that there are 9.3 abusers per t-1. With t-1 costs around $400 on average, that means that those customers will cost me $44.44 each. JUST in bandwidth expenses. Most of our customers pay us $35 to $40 each. So, Mr. Allergic, how do you suggest a guy stay in business? grin David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. OK, so, when I pay $250 per mbps that works out to how many $ per month? Fake answer: Too many, you're getting robbed by your upstream. :) Serious answer: 1Mbps constant is about 316.4GB over 30 days. Now, lets look at this from a pragmatic standpoint. Reality rearing it's ugly head into the average business model. Dude, I just run the NOC, I don't know nothin' 'bout no numbers. :D So, Mr. Allergic, how do you suggest a guy stay in business? Y'know, my fake answer suddenly looks a lot better. :) In all seriousness, if you've got more than four or five T1s, you may want to look into a DS3. At least locally, once you get past there, a fractional (or even a full) DS3 becomes more cost-effective. If you expect to be in business for another three or five years (and who doesn't?) signing a long-term contract with your upstream can bring the price down even further. Even if you don't need all that bandwidth now, you'll probably need it in the next couple years. If you're really ambitious, you can use some of that extra bandwidth and expand into other computer-y stuff (virtual servers, colocation, Web hosting, whatever). The typical residential or small-business user pulls a lot more download than upload; you might as well use all that extra upload capacity for something. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs. At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of my costs. He needs to pay more. Or, he needs to get his service from you. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing programs. And some are legitimately using that much data. In the end, we don't want to run off people if we can help it. Those at the 30 to 50 gig level will probably leave us for other services, but that's gonna be ok. They mess things up for everyone around them. Better that my competitors have customers like that than we do. For all of the rest, we need to recover our costs, and hopefully make a little extra money on them. S, my new idea is, gigs
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
- Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. OK, so, when I pay $250 per mbps that works out to how many $ per month? Fake answer: Too many, you're getting robbed by your upstream. :) Serious answer: 1Mbps constant is about 316.4GB over 30 days. Now, lets look at this from a pragmatic standpoint. Reality rearing it's ugly head into the average business model. Dude, I just run the NOC, I don't know nothin' 'bout no numbers. :D So, Mr. Allergic, how do you suggest a guy stay in business? Y'know, my fake answer suddenly looks a lot better. :) In all seriousness, if you've got more than four or five T1s, you may want to look into a DS3. At least locally, once you get past there, a fractional (or even a full) DS3 becomes more cost-effective. If you expect to be in business for another three or five years (and who doesn't?) signing a long-term contract with your upstream can bring the price down even further. Even if you don't need all that bandwidth now, you'll probably need it in the next couple years. If you're really ambitious, you can use some of that extra bandwidth and expand into other computer-y stuff (virtual servers, colocation, Web hosting, whatever). The typical residential or small-business user pulls a lot more download than upload; you might as well use all that extra upload capacity for something. Yepeprs, I could do that. But right now I have a 100 meg ethernet connection. I have home users that can do speakeasy tests of 30 megs. 15 megs upload! They pay $40 per month. I'm paying $700 per month for that ability. I could buy mbps and pay less. Probably a lot less. But then I'd also have to buy a cap in speeds. So my 30 meg customers would no longer get 30 megs. They'd get 3 or 4 or whatever $700 to $1000 would buy me. I promise it wouldn't be 100 megs. AND, that 50 gig user would STILL cost me more than he's paying me. Remember I have another $10 or more per cusotmer in labor, gas, insurance, office space etc. etc. etc. Next idea? There are more things to look at than just the bandwidth issue OR just the money issue. It's a big picture and a person has to be able to take in all of it AND understand what he's looking at. Then, we have to tweak it to fit the lifestyle we want to live and where we want to send the kids to college.. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Marlon, Sell your service based on speed... 512k = $xx, 1meg = $xx and so on... then you don't have to worry about who is transferring how much, etc. The people that hog it, just call them and say that's not permitted on our service and if they continue, cap their speed down to 256k or 128k until they cancel and go away. :) 10% of your customers will use 90% of your time. Same goes for bandwidth. ;) Travis Microserv Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs. At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of my costs. He needs to pay more. Or, he needs to get his service from you. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids to turn off the file sharing
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
But a cahing server if you can't afford the bandwidth. Seriously, your model, the old model, is about dead and buried. How much does it cost to watch a movie across the net using your system? Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Wrong answer, It should be the other way around. Because we don't bit charge, we manage our network to accomadate our users needs. I would imagine that if you were here telling your subs that they had to pay more, they would be coming this way. I'm not scared of my subs usage, I've been building out specifically for their future high usage needs. Bottom line, you need to get over the hump of not having enough subs to pay for the extra bandwidth where you can get a much better per meg rate. Get more subs! George Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per month. We just moved them from $75 to $350 per month (matched the t-1 price they pay in another town). They don't feel abused and I feel more comfortable about their usage. We bumped them up to 60 gigs included. I have another customer that's at 10 gigs now (our included limit is 4). We talked about an appropriate rate of increase. Under our standard levels, they'd more than double their bill. If we hit them with a couple of hundred in billing they'd go elsewhere. We would, however, like to dig a little bit deeper into their back pocket. I talked with them a bit about our need to recover costs based on their usage etc. They said if we hit $100 to $125 they'd not have a problem with that. On our end we have two problems. One, we pay for internet based on usage. The more they use the more we pay. Our costs were up 15% last month. The other, maybe worse issue, is that we have to increase the capacity to towers that have heavy users on them. Possibly to the point of a dedicated ap to cover just a customer or three. Now we're really talking bucks and spectrum issues etc. My original idea was that if a person went over by a gig or two we'd ding them a few dollars as a shot across the bow kind of thing. Around 50 of our 400 users are going over the new 4 gig level though. Some will fix that by getting postini and dropping the spam. Some will fix that by getting the kids
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
I have not had the guts to do what Marlon does. But that doesn't mean there isn't merit in his method. Part of the reason is we put in place technology that allows the use of available bandwdith with limited impact to other users, therefore taking away some of the need to charge for it, if it was jsut going unused any way. in otherwords Bandwdith allocated on a fair weighted queuing priority basis. The advatnage of Marlon's model, is he has the data to pick and chose customers. The high bandwdith hogs gets given to the competition or pay. The second a network starts reaching capacity and the market penetration doesn't, it becomes feasible to be happy not keeping all customers, instead you pick the most profitable customers. The facts are the the network supports it or it doesn't, the provider can afford to upgrade or they can't. What I'm learning is, selling 10mbps peak speeds allows you to play the Comcast game, and beat them at it. I'm selling unlimited now, but its important to track the usage. That might have to change, as people start using the links to replace their VCRs. The reality is, eventuality one will have to port limit or charge per bit. I'm jsut avoiding that day until it has to happen, so I don't lose customers for the greater good, unless I have to. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in the long term. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
How are you guys tracking usage? What program are you using to measure it and are you measureing every bit or an average? On 12/22/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have not had the guts to do what Marlon does. But that doesn't mean there isn't merit in his method. Part of the reason is we put in place technology that allows the use of available bandwdith with limited impact to other users, therefore taking away some of the need to charge for it, if it was jsut going unused any way. in otherwords Bandwdith allocated on a fair weighted queuing priority basis. The advatnage of Marlon's model, is he has the data to pick and chose customers. The high bandwdith hogs gets given to the competition or pay. The second a network starts reaching capacity and the market penetration doesn't, it becomes feasible to be happy not keeping all customers, instead you pick the most profitable customers. The facts are the the network supports it or it doesn't, the provider can afford to upgrade or they can't. What I'm learning is, selling 10mbps peak speeds allows you to play the Comcast game, and beat them at it. I'm selling unlimited now, but its important to track the usage. That might have to change, as people start using the links to replace their VCRs. The reality is, eventuality one will have to port limit or charge per bit. I'm jsut avoiding that day until it has to happen, so I don't lose customers for the greater good, unless I have to. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 4:42 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? Assuming a month is 30 days (nice round number), 50GB/month is about 161kbps, all the time. That's the equivalent of, say, leaving a high-quality streaming radio station running, or a low-quality video feed like gbs.tv. I'm staying out of the rest of the discussion, because I'm violently allergic to pay-by-the-bit pricing. It may make good sense to the bookkeeper, but with streaming media (YouTube, Google Video), big downloadable media (iTunes movies, Amazon Unbox), and giant software downloads (World of Warcraft and just about every other MMORPG) becoming more prevalent, I think it's just gonna seriously annoy your users in the long term. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps
Hi Marlon, Merry Christmas to you and your family! Just a thought, you might want to fire those 9 customers. You could also rate-limit them down to 56K and see how long they stick around. Jeff -Original Message- From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subj: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Date: Fri Dec 22, 2006 5:29 pm Size: 3K To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Cause it takes just 9 uers at 50 gigs per month to double my BW costs. At $35 per month in service fees, the 50 gig user chews up more than 10% of my costs. He needs to pay more. Or, he needs to get his service from you. Just be glad you aren't a competitor of mine. Right now, we have 9 users over 10 gigs per month. That means that 5% of my customers are more than, much more than, 5% of my bw costs. The average person is using less than 2 gigs. Worst of all, the OTHER customers on the towers that the highest of the high end users are calling about bad service. Soo000, how would you like to be a competitor here, knowing that I'm gonna give you the highest of the bw hogs? What are YOU gonna do to stay in business? laters, Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:45 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] bits per mbps Guess it cmes down to what you are selling and what does it cost you to do business. First f, you are selling a simle internet conection for a casual user. If you want you can squeeze them fr every little bit. I wonder why you have to charge them more, if you are being billed at the 95% My understanding is the 95 percentile is a snap shot at peak time and the top 5% lobbed of to come up with your usage. What this means to me is that on wed evening at 8PM when you hit 9.543megs a second which is your highest usage, could be sunday morning or friday evening for that matter, they call that the peak and lob off 5% and bill you there. So on monday morning when you are going 4.5 or 2.2MBPS or sat evening when you hit 5 or 6 megs, there is no difference in cost to you. t's all under the peak. So why bother unless your true goal is to figure out how hard you can squeeze you sub. Which is not right or wrong, just your business not any ones elses. I have a sub that uploads a 250 meg file twice a day to my server and does this every day. If he was your sub how much would you charge them? George Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote: Hi All, OK, so now that we know who our heavy users are I have to come up with a couple of things. First, I have to figure out how many kbps a gig of download would be. Specifically, I've got a couple of customers doing 50 gigs per month. How many kbps does it take to generate that? We pay for our internet based on kbps. Next, what do we do for an overage fee? Currently it's set as $5 for the first gig, $10 for the second, $20 for the third etc. At 25 gigs the customer has a $5,000,000 bill. Sure that'll run off the abusers, but I'd rather find a more reasonable way to bill them. We have a business customer that legitimately uses 40 to 50 gig per --- message truncated --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
