RE: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
To even take your water hose analogy, I pay for my water - one little sip might not hurt, but everyone stopping by to take a sip, leaving the hose on, draws down my supply and sends my bill up. However you slice it or justify it in your mind, it's still morally, ethically, and legally wrong to connect to open WiFi devices and do ANYthing on that connection. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pete Davis Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 12:25 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of the time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your water hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A sip of water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router neither one significantly costs anyone. While it is technically stealing it is hard to suggest that it costs the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any cost of real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his files on his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up and snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is grounds for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized information access, etc, etc. If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs you real money to remedy. If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make a VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't suspect anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't cost you anything. If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) or cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages getting your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue. An emergency communication plan that includes war driving to establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of installing real fire hydrants. As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war driving is catch-able convict-able or quantify-able (in the cost to the customer) or whatever. Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with either one, you would get your hand slapped. Pete Davis NoDial.net. Rick Smith wrote: ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, and ASK your permission to use the phone. At which point, you COULD say NO! and shut the door on them. Or, you could let them in, and tell them OK! here it is! BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, plugging a butt set in and just dialing away... If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck, walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co. put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you. What's different with WiFi ? Nothing but the excuses we allow people to continue to make. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pete Davis Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g The legality and ethics of using an open access point is questionable, but there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I cover with my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial. Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP or other encryption key. Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a list that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will be sent to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of me, get connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn down, because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP solution, then am I gonna get sued? If they connect to my private home network that I intentionally left open, and my custom made uber-hacker passive/aggressive firewall unleashes a blackops virus that turns their laptops into bricks. Then what? I guess, that by JohnnyO's example, if you come into my open door and try to visit
Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee. And if you use it, it is because I paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you are using what I paid for without paying. Pete Davis wrote: I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of the time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your water hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A sip of water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router neither one significantly costs anyone. While it is technically stealing it is hard to suggest that it costs the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any cost of real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his files on his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up and snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is grounds for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized information access, etc, etc. If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs you real money to remedy. If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make a VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't suspect anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't cost you anything. If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) or cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages getting your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue. An emergency communication plan that includes war driving to establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of installing real fire hydrants. As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war driving is catch-able convict-able or quantify-able (in the cost to the customer) or whatever. Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with either one, you would get your hand slapped. Pete Davis NoDial.net. Rick Smith wrote: ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, and ASK your permission to use the phone. At which point, you COULD say NO! and shut the door on them. Or, you could let them in, and tell them OK! here it is! BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, plugging a butt set in and just dialing away... If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck, walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co. put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you. What's different with WiFi ? Nothing but the excuses we allow people to continue to make. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pete Davis Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g The legality and ethics of using an open access point is questionable, but there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I cover with my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial. Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP or other encryption key. Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a list that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will be sent to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of me, get connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn down, because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP solution, then am I gonna get sued? If they connect to my private home network that I intentionally left open, and my custom made uber-hacker passive/aggressive firewall unleashes a blackops virus that turns their laptops into bricks. Then what? I guess, that by JohnnyO's example, if you come into my open door and try to visit with my wife, and you step on a rake that gives you a brain anurism, I guess that makes me guilty (or not guilty) of manslaughter. I lost score in this ballgame. If the cops are in a pursuit in my neighborhood, and run their squad car off the road breaking the radio, and they want to use my home phone to call the office, I would let them. Not because I HAVE
Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
Yes, you paid for it, then broadcast it completely unencrypted into the airspace that is in my car, that is perfectly legally parked in the street. If your apple tree drops an apple in my yard, it is free for me to eat. You paid for the water, the fertilizer, and the minerals to create the fruit, but it became my fruit win it landed in my yard. pd Scott Reed wrote: Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee. And if you use it, it is because I paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you are using what I paid for without paying. Pete Davis wrote: I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of the time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your water hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A sip of water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router neither one significantly costs anyone. While it is technically stealing it is hard to suggest that it costs the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any cost of real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his files on his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up and snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is grounds for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized information access, etc, etc. If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs you real money to remedy. If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make a VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't suspect anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't cost you anything. If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) or cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages getting your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue. An emergency communication plan that includes war driving to establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of installing real fire hydrants. As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war driving is catch-able convict-able or quantify-able (in the cost to the customer) or whatever. Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with either one, you would get your hand slapped. Pete Davis NoDial.net. Rick Smith wrote: ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, and ASK your permission to use the phone. At which point, you COULD say NO! and shut the door on them. Or, you could let them in, and tell them OK! here it is! BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, plugging a butt set in and just dialing away... If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck, walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co. put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you. What's different with WiFi ? Nothing but the excuses we allow people to continue to make. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pete Davis Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g The legality and ethics of using an open access point is questionable, but there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I cover with my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial. Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP or other encryption key. Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a list that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will be sent to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of me, get connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn down, because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP solution, then am I gonna get sued? If they connect to my private home network that I intentionally left open, and my custom made uber-hacker passive/aggressive firewall unleashes a blackops virus that turns their laptops into bricks. Then what? I guess, that by JohnnyO's example, if you come into my open
Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
Not true... a case has already been filed about this exact thing... http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Florida_man_charged_with_stealing_WiFi http://stpetersburgtimes.com./2005/07/04/Southpinellas/Wi_Fi_cloaks_a_new_br.shtml It is illegal, period. Travis Microserv Pete Davis wrote: Yes, you paid for it, then broadcast it completely unencrypted into the airspace that is in my car, that is perfectly legally parked in the street. If your apple tree drops an apple in my yard, it is free for me to eat. You paid for the water, the fertilizer, and the minerals to create the fruit, but it became my fruit win it landed in my yard. pd Scott Reed wrote: Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee. And if you use it, it is because I paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you are using what I paid for without paying. Pete Davis wrote: I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of the time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your water hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A sip of water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router neither one significantly costs anyone. While it is technically stealing it is hard to suggest that it costs the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any cost of real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his files on his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up and snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is grounds for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized information access, etc, etc. If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs you real money to remedy. If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make a VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't suspect anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't cost you anything. If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) or cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages getting your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue. An emergency communication plan that includes war driving to establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of installing real fire hydrants. As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war driving is catch-able convict-able or quantify-able (in the cost to the customer) or whatever. Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with either one, you would get your hand slapped. Pete Davis NoDial.net. Rick Smith wrote: ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, and ASK your permission to use the phone. At which point, you COULD say NO! and shut the door on them. Or, you could let them in, and tell them OK! here it is! BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, plugging a butt set in and just dialing away... If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck, walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co. put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you. What's different with WiFi ? Nothing but the excuses we allow people to continue to make. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pete Davis Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g The legality and ethics of using an open access point is questionable, but there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I cover with my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial. Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP or other encryption key. Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a list that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will be sent to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of me, get connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn down, because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP solution, then am I gonna
Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
Yeah, but there was also a state that was making open ap's legal to connect to. We hashed that one around quite awhile ago as well. Travis Johnson wrote: Not true... a case has already been filed about this exact thing... http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Florida_man_charged_with_stealing_WiFi http://stpetersburgtimes.com./2005/07/04/Southpinellas/Wi_Fi_cloaks_a_new_br.shtml It is illegal, period. Travis Microserv Pete Davis wrote: Yes, you paid for it, then broadcast it completely unencrypted into the airspace that is in my car, that is perfectly legally parked in the street. If your apple tree drops an apple in my yard, it is free for me to eat. You paid for the water, the fertilizer, and the minerals to create the fruit, but it became my fruit win it landed in my yard. pd Scott Reed wrote: Ah, but it does cost me the monthly fee. And if you use it, it is because I paid the fee, not you. There, seems to me it is theft, you are using what I paid for without paying. Pete Davis wrote: I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of the time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your water hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A sip of water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router neither one significantly costs anyone. While it is technically stealing it is hard to suggest that it costs the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any cost of real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his files on his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up and snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is grounds for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized information access, etc, etc. If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs you real money to remedy. If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make a VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't suspect anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't cost you anything. If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) or cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages getting your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue. An emergency communication plan that includes war driving to establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of installing real fire hydrants. As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war driving is catch-able convict-able or quantify-able (in the cost to the customer) or whatever. Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with either one, you would get your hand slapped. Pete Davis NoDial.net. Rick Smith wrote: ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, and ASK your permission to use the phone. At which point, you COULD say NO! and shut the door on them. Or, you could let them in, and tell them OK! here it is! BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, plugging a butt set in and just dialing away... If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck, walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co. put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you. What's different with WiFi ? Nothing but the excuses we allow people to continue to make. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pete Davis Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g The legality and ethics of using an open access point is questionable, but there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I cover with my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial. Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP or other encryption key. Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a list that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will be sent to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of me, get
Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
The legality and ethics of using an open access point is questionable, but there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I cover with my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial. Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP or other encryption key. Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a list that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will be sent to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of me, get connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn down, because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP solution, then am I gonna get sued? If they connect to my private home network that I intentionally left open, and my custom made uber-hacker passive/aggressive firewall unleashes a blackops virus that turns their laptops into bricks. Then what? I guess, that by JohnnyO's example, if you come into my open door and try to visit with my wife, and you step on a rake that gives you a brain anurism, I guess that makes me guilty (or not guilty) of manslaughter. I lost score in this ballgame. If the cops are in a pursuit in my neighborhood, and run their squad car off the road breaking the radio, and they want to use my home phone to call the office, I would let them. Not because I HAVE to, but to be a good citizen. If I HAD to, then the 4th amendment just went out the window. pd Jack Unger wrote: Holy brainfade, JohnnyO. Your comments about highly illegal just went STRAIGHT over my head. What's illegal about Brian's emergency communications operation? Hams have been providing emergency communications services since (literally) the sinking of the Titanic. jack JohnnyO wrote: Brian - Ham Operator or not - do you realize that what you're planning on doing is HIGHLY illegal and has several people over the past 2 yrs in Federal Prison as we speak ? Why don't ya'll get a VSAT system that works well for VOIP ? The cost is only about $60/mo more and you have no restrictions on bandwidth or stupid filtering like Wild Blue does JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Webster Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 2:56 PM To: WISPA List Subject: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g I'm looking for a good client radio to use in an emergency communications vehicle. My criteria are, POE, highest gain panel antenna possible, scan/survey tool built in, web interface, 802.11b at minimum. I'm part of a ham radio emergency response group and we have our own comms van. I want to have a client radio that we can use on a push up mast to scan around for an open access point and grab bandwidth in an emergency on a scene. We respond with our county Hazmat team for support and the internet is handy. We already have a Wild Blue setup and that will work when necessary but I would like to be able to use something with lower latency so we can implement VOIP at times. I have not studied the 802.11b outdoor client radios in a long time and thought I would ask opinions here. Price is a consideration but the feature set is more important. Id' like to stay away from YDI/Proxim just because of their attitude on the phone whenever I have dealt with them. If any of you can point me to a link were I can purchase one that would be great. Have a nice day. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, and ASK your permission to use the phone. At which point, you COULD say NO! and shut the door on them. Or, you could let them in, and tell them OK! here it is! BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, plugging a butt set in and just dialing away... If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck, walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co. put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you. What's different with WiFi ? Nothing but the excuses we allow people to continue to make. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Pete Davis Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g The legality and ethics of using an open access point is questionable, but there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I cover with my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial. Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP or other encryption key. Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a list that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will be sent to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of me, get connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn down, because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP solution, then am I gonna get sued? If they connect to my private home network that I intentionally left open, and my custom made uber-hacker passive/aggressive firewall unleashes a blackops virus that turns their laptops into bricks. Then what? I guess, that by JohnnyO's example, if you come into my open door and try to visit with my wife, and you step on a rake that gives you a brain anurism, I guess that makes me guilty (or not guilty) of manslaughter. I lost score in this ballgame. If the cops are in a pursuit in my neighborhood, and run their squad car off the road breaking the radio, and they want to use my home phone to call the office, I would let them. Not because I HAVE to, but to be a good citizen. If I HAD to, then the 4th amendment just went out the window. pd Jack Unger wrote: Holy brainfade, JohnnyO. Your comments about highly illegal just went STRAIGHT over my head. What's illegal about Brian's emergency communications operation? Hams have been providing emergency communications services since (literally) the sinking of the Titanic. jack JohnnyO wrote: Brian - Ham Operator or not - do you realize that what you're planning on doing is HIGHLY illegal and has several people over the past 2 yrs in Federal Prison as we speak ? Why don't ya'll get a VSAT system that works well for VOIP ? The cost is only about $60/mo more and you have no restrictions on bandwidth or stupid filtering like Wild Blue does JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Webster Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 2:56 PM To: WISPA List Subject: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g I'm looking for a good client radio to use in an emergency communications vehicle. My criteria are, POE, highest gain panel antenna possible, scan/survey tool built in, web interface, 802.11b at minimum. I'm part of a ham radio emergency response group and we have our own comms van. I want to have a client radio that we can use on a push up mast to scan around for an open access point and grab bandwidth in an emergency on a scene. We respond with our county Hazmat team for support and the internet is handy. We already have a Wild Blue setup and that will work when necessary but I would like to be able to use something with lower latency so we can implement VOIP at times. I have not studied the 802.11b outdoor client radios in a long time and thought I would ask opinions here. Price is a consideration but the feature set is more important. Id' like to stay away from YDI/Proxim just because of their attitude on the phone whenever I have dealt with them. If any of you can point me to a link were I can purchase one that would be great. Have a nice day. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
I suppose that the only real difference is that you can drive up within a few hundred feet of any house with a unsecured wireless network, and get online without anyone knowing (or caring most of the time). Its more like walking up and getting a drink from your water hose in your yard than JohnnyO's analogy of using your wife. A sip of water from the hose or 5 minutes on your wireless router neither one significantly costs anyone. While it is technically "stealing" it is hard to suggest that it costs the paying subscriber has sustained any monetary loss or any cost of real performance, internet speed, or water pressure. If his files on his PC were shared on his insecure WLAN, and you drove up and snooped/altered/deleted them, then it would seem that there is grounds for vandalism/business interruption, unauthorized information access, etc, etc. If I walk up to your water hose, steal it, cut it, or run several hoses together and fill my 30,000 gallon pool, or stick it in your window and flood your house, then there is a problem, and a real issue, and a crime has been committed, since it legitimately costs you real money to remedy. If I drive near your home, get on the internet, check my email, make a VOIP call, look up a stock price, or whatever, then I don't suspect anyone will complain, or know that I did it. It also won't cost you anything. If I sit out there for hours downloading copyright violations (P2P) or cracking your file server, or send 10,000,000 spam messages getting your IP added to the RBL's, then there is a real issue. An emergency communication plan that includes "war driving" to establish VOIP is akin to a fire department that plans to put out fires with a series of garden hoses and outside hose bibs instead of installing real fire hydrants. As far as the legality of war driving, I am not sure that MOST war driving is "catch-able" "convict-able" or "quantify-able" (in the cost to the customer) or whatever. Its also against the law to sample grapes at the grocery store. I don't do that, but I am sure that people have done that for years. I have never even heard of anyone getting in trouble for it. (war driving or grape sampling). I suppose that if you got greedy with either one, you would get your hand slapped. Pete Davis NoDial.net. Rick Smith wrote: ah yes, but then you would've had a cop knock on the front door, and ASK your permission to use the phone. At which point, you COULD say "NO!" and shut the door on them. Or, you could let them in, and tell them "OK! here it is!" BUT...They wouldn't do the equivalent of walking up to your NID, plugging a butt set in and just dialing away... If I, right now, drove up in front of your house, got out of my truck, walked up to your Network panel that Verizon or the local phone co. put there as their demarcation point, and plugged my butt set in and got dial tone and dialed Hawaii to chat with someone at YOUR expense, I could be found / shot / arrested / sued / what have you. What's different with WiFi ? Nothing but the excuses we allow people to continue to make. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Pete Davis Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:11 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g The legality and ethics of using an open access point is questionable, but there is a liability issue as well. In most of the areas that I cover with my network, there is a strong signal with SSID of NoDial. Connecting to this will get you a DHCP address even, without a WEP or other encryption key. Until I know that you have connected and moved your mac address to a list that authorizes your connection, all of your outbound packets will be sent to http://64.123.108.28:80 This brings up a liability issue. If the emergency communication van tech wastes 2 hrs trying to get hold of me, get connected to the internet, or whatever, and $10M of houses burn down, because they couldn't get to the fire department via a hacked VOIP solution, then am I gonna get sued? If they connect to my private home network that I intentionally left open, and my custom made uber-hacker passive/aggressive firewall unleashes a blackops virus that turns their laptops into bricks. Then what? I guess, that by JohnnyO's example, if you come into my open door and try to visit with my wife, and you step on a rake that gives you a brain anurism, I guess that makes me guilty (or not guilty) of manslaughter. I lost score in this ballgame. If the cops are in a pursuit in my neighborhood, and run their squad car off the road breaking the radio, and they want to use my home phone to call the office, I would let them. Not because I HAVE to, but to be a good citizen. If I HAD to, then the 4th amendment just went out the window. pd Jack Unger wrote: Holy brainfade, Joh
Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
I'm a Ham (a little out of practice maybe), and if my memory serves me, in an emergency, the HAM bands can be used however necessary, even by non-HAMs. However, organization is desirable, especially with large scale disasters like Katrina. Accessing someone's wireless router without permission is a different animal; a little vigilante. But if you save a life or something, who would fault you? Jason Jack Unger wrote: Holy brainfade, JohnnyO. Your comments about highly illegal just went STRAIGHT over my head. What's illegal about Brian's emergency communications operation? Hams have been providing emergency communications services since (literally) the sinking of the Titanic. jack JohnnyO wrote: Brian - Ham Operator or not - do you realize that what you're planning on doing is HIGHLY illegal and has several people over the past 2 yrs in Federal Prison as we speak ? Why don't ya'll get a VSAT system that works well for VOIP ? The cost is only about $60/mo more and you have no restrictions on bandwidth or stupid filtering like Wild Blue does JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Webster Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 2:56 PM To: WISPA List Subject: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g I'm looking for a good client radio to use in an emergency communications vehicle. My criteria are, POE, highest gain panel antenna possible, scan/survey tool built in, web interface, 802.11b at minimum. I'm part of a ham radio emergency response group and we have our own comms van. I want to have a client radio that we can use on a push up mast to scan around for an open access point and grab bandwidth in an emergency on a scene. We respond with our county Hazmat team for support and the internet is handy. We already have a Wild Blue setup and that will work when necessary but I would like to be able to use something with lower latency so we can implement VOIP at times. I have not studied the 802.11b outdoor client radios in a long time and thought I would ask opinions here. Price is a consideration but the feature set is more important. Id' like to stay away from YDI/Proxim just because of their attitude on the phone whenever I have dealt with them. If any of you can point me to a link were I can purchase one that would be great. Have a nice day. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
Sounds like I'd want to stay away from YOU for the same reason... Brian Webster wrote: Id' like to stay away from YDI/Proxim just because of their attitude on the phone whenever I have dealt with them. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
Brian - Ham Operator or not - do you realize that what you're planning on doing is HIGHLY illegal and has several people over the past 2 yrs in Federal Prison as we speak ? Why don't ya'll get a VSAT system that works well for VOIP ? The cost is only about $60/mo more and you have no restrictions on bandwidth or stupid filtering like Wild Blue does JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Webster Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 2:56 PM To: WISPA List Subject: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g I'm looking for a good client radio to use in an emergency communications vehicle. My criteria are, POE, highest gain panel antenna possible, scan/survey tool built in, web interface, 802.11b at minimum. I'm part of a ham radio emergency response group and we have our own comms van. I want to have a client radio that we can use on a push up mast to scan around for an open access point and grab bandwidth in an emergency on a scene. We respond with our county Hazmat team for support and the internet is handy. We already have a Wild Blue setup and that will work when necessary but I would like to be able to use something with lower latency so we can implement VOIP at times. I have not studied the 802.11b outdoor client radios in a long time and thought I would ask opinions here. Price is a consideration but the feature set is more important. Id' like to stay away from YDI/Proxim just because of their attitude on the phone whenever I have dealt with them. If any of you can point me to a link were I can purchase one that would be great. Have a nice day. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.29/608 - Release Date: 12/29/2006 8:22 AM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] recommendation for Client POE integrated radio for 802.11b/g
Brian, I can send you a couple for free if you need some for your emergency response team. I've got a bunch of Teletronics 802.11B EZ Bridges, 100mw and 200mw, that I pulled and replaced with Lonnie's war boards. They work fine. Have a web interface for survey and configuration and are just dumb bridges that you will need some kind of gateway router. While I'm at it, does anyone still use these? I'd make you are really good deal. George Brian Webster wrote: I'm looking for a good client radio to use in an emergency communications vehicle. My criteria are, POE, highest gain panel antenna possible, scan/survey tool built in, web interface, 802.11b at minimum. I'm part of a ham radio emergency response group and we have our own comms van. I want to have a client radio that we can use on a push up mast to scan around for an open access point and grab bandwidth in an emergency on a scene. We respond with our county Hazmat team for support and the internet is handy. We already have a Wild Blue setup and that will work when necessary but I would like to be able to use something with lower latency so we can implement VOIP at times. I have not studied the 802.11b outdoor client radios in a long time and thought I would ask opinions here. Price is a consideration but the feature set is more important. Id' like to stay away from YDI/Proxim just because of their attitude on the phone whenever I have dealt with them. If any of you can point me to a link were I can purchase one that would be great. Have a nice day. Thank You, Brian Webster www.wirelessmapping.com -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
