Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-29 Thread Christopher Erickson
The best way to design an off-grid radio system is to take advantage
of every chance you find to avoid having to generate a watt in the
first place.

Two drop-in replacement, high-efficiency voltage regulator devices
that can help to that end:

http://store.gravitech.us/312v1aswvore.html

http://store.gravitech.us/35v1aswvore.html

My advice is always free and worth every penny!

-Christopher Erickson
Network Design Engineer
5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
Anchorage, AK 99508
N61?11.710' W149?46.723'




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-29 Thread Mike
That's one point I was making with my fuzzy math repeater 
example.  :-) I think the Wili card radios in that repeater system 
will operate down to 7V.

I may need more than toys if I tried to use legacy 48V stuff and the 
resultant voltage conversions.

At 10:08 AM 8/29/2009, you wrote:
The best way to design an off-grid radio system is to take advantage
of every chance you find to avoid having to generate a watt in the
first place.





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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-28 Thread Scott Parsons
IF you need to power 48V equipment from a 12 or 24V battery system take a
look at these 9-36V input 48V output DCDC converters/POE inserters.
It is much more efficient than going the inverter to 120VAC and back to
48VDC route. They supply 30W so should power most 48V equipment.

http://store.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp?ic=TP-DCDC-1248eq=Tp=

Regards, Scott

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

48VDC equipment is almost always carrier-class and that is where
the expense is.  That isn't quite the same as having a 48VDC power
plant with non carrier-class equipment running on it.

What is really absurd is converting a 12/24/48VDC battery plant to
120VAC to feed a piece of equipment that is going to convert it
back down to 5VDC and 12VDC using a reasonably reliable but highly
inefficient computer type switching power supply.

Cisco and Motorola make some of the most power-inefficient networking
and radio equipment on the market.

No big deal when you are on the grid.  But a real big deal when you
are not.  I guess off-grid sites are just too tiny a portion of their
market to worry about.

My advice is always free and worth every penny!

-Christopher Erickson
Network Design Engineer
5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
Anchorage, AK 99508
N61?11.710' W149?46.723'


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of ralph
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:26 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 But isn't your panel expense 2 to 4 times as much?
 I looked at powering some Tropos and Cisco mesh with solar and compared
48v
 with 12 volt.
 The 12 volt used a really high efficiency inverter to 120v and then to the
 radio.
 It was less than half the overall cost of the 48v system.
 
 Ralph
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 2:31 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 * 48 volt power system (actually -48VDC) is a telco standard and
 there is a LOT of carrier-class telecom equipment and charging
 systems designed to operate on that voltage.  Especially a lot
 of remote management control and monitoring stuff.
 
 * For the same watts, when voltage goes up, amperage goes down.
 This means less percentage energy loss from voltage drop in
 wiring and the ability to use smaller gauge wire for power.
 
 * Using high-efficiency Picoverters to power 12VDC and 24VDC
 devices from 48VDC means that your 12VDC devices can still
 operate reliably when the 48VDC battery plant is down to near
 exhaustion.
 
 My advice is always free and worth every penny!
 
 -Christopher Erickson
 Network Design Engineer
 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
 Anchorage, AK 99508
 N61?11.710' W149?46.723'
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
  Behalf Of Chuck Profito
  Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:09 AM
  To: 'WISPA General List'
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  
  Chris,
  Re #4:  Is that because the usable voltage? Ie: 11.2V of 12, 18 of 24?
 36-38
  of 48?  Are these close to correct for std POE? Or what WISP's use?
  
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
  Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
  Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:53 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  I have designed a fair number of off-grid radio sites and in general,
  I have come up with a few additional guidelines.
  
  1. Have enough battery capacity to run for 7 days with zero charging.
  This will give you a window of response time if the charging system
  suffers a failure (or theft/vandalism) or there is an extended
  episode of inclement weather.
  
  2. Avoid as many power conversions as possible.
  
  3. Avoid any equipment that has a built-in cooling fan.
  
  4. 48 volt power systems are more efficient than 24 volt power systems
  are more efficient than 12 volt power systems.
  
  5. Avoid inverters and equipment that is 120VAC only.
  
  6. Don't forget to consider environmental issues and projected
  temperature extremes.
  
  My advice is always free and worth every penny!
  
  -Christopher Erickson
  Network Design Engineer
  5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
  Anchorage, AK 99508
  N61?11.710' W149?46.723'
  
  
  
   -Original Message-
   From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
   Behalf Of Mike
   Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:35 AM
   To: WISPA General List
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
   
   
   Instead of talking 33.3 days and 24 hours of sun, let's just take an 
   average day

Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread os10rules
I'd want to see that graph dropping off sooner, perhaps finishing the  
charging by about 1pm. Is your charge controller a 3 stage charger  
(bulk, absorb, float) or some approximation? It looks like your  
batteries might just be getting full when the sun is going down. Was  
that a clear sky day? How long has that site been in service? Are you  
getting a good lifespan out of the batteries?

Greg

On Aug 27, 2009, at 1:22 AM, Matt Larsen - Lists wrote:

 Here is the graph straight from the charge monitor for our solar  
 panels,
 to give you an idea what the charging pattern looks like.   This is  
 for
 a pair of 60w panels.

 http://www.thelar.com/gallery2/v/Wireless/Hogback/ 
 graph_image1.png.html

 Matt Larsen
 vistabeam.com

 Christopher Erickson wrote:
 First, the Sun never shines 24 hours in a day unless you are above
 the Arctic circle.  And even then, that only happens for a few days
 of the year.

 Second, there isn't much charging going on when the Sun is near the
 horizon, which is most of the time when in Northern latitudes.

 For example, an 80 watt panel will NEVER output 80 watts in  
 Anchorage,
 Alaska because even at solar noon in the summer, the Sun is only
 around 60 degrees up in the sky.  And below about 25 degrees, there
 isn't any charging going on at all.

 So anyway think of an amperage sine wave that builds up in the  
 morning,
 peaks at solar noon and then diminishes in the afternoon.

 The math is more complicated than it first appears.

 My advice is always free and worth every penny!

 -Christopher Erickson
 Network Design Engineer
 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
 Anchorage, AK 99508




 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:06 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that  
 is
 pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?   
 If
 I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
 I have 48W left over to charge the battery.

 Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing  
 45W.  I
 still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
 charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
 run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
 hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
 battery will stay charged.

 No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
 see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
 can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
 monitor battery condition it will work just fine.

 At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:

 Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w  
 of
 panel.



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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread os10rules
Exactly. But I think he meant that in a 33 day period he only needed  
24 hours of sun which comes out to be less than an hour a day. I think  
his math is flawed (perhaps calculating watts instead of watt hours)  
but I think that's what he meant. Getting 24 hours of sun in a 33 day  
period is probably doable even in Seattle but it's the wrong  
calculation. I think he needs a lot more than 24 hours of sun in a 33  
day period.

Greg

On Aug 27, 2009, at 1:27 AM, Christopher Erickson wrote:

 Could be but that isn't right either.

 24 hours of daylight is not the same as 24 hours of full current  
 charging.

 The Sun rises and the Sun sets.

 Latitude and seasons aside, an 80 watt panel is only going to give  
 about
 450 watt-hours a day at absolute best.

 -Christopher Erickson


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:43 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 I don't think his 24 hours of sun number meant in one 24 hour period.
 I think he meant 24 hours of sun cumulative over 33 days. No?

 Greg

 On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:01 AM, Christopher Erickson wrote:

 First, the Sun never shines 24 hours in a day unless you are above
 the Arctic circle.  And even then, that only happens for a few days
 of the year.

 Second, there isn't much charging going on when the Sun is near the
 horizon, which is most of the time when in Northern latitudes.

 For example, an 80 watt panel will NEVER output 80 watts in  
 Anchorage,
 Alaska because even at solar noon in the summer, the Sun is only
 around 60 degrees up in the sky.  And below about 25 degrees, there
 isn't any charging going on at all.

 So anyway think of an amperage sine wave that builds up in the
 morning,
 peaks at solar noon and then diminishes in the afternoon.

 The math is more complicated than it first appears.

 My advice is always free and worth every penny!

 -Christopher Erickson
 Network Design Engineer
 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
 Anchorage, AK 99508



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
 boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:06 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site  
 that is
 pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W,  
 right?  If
 I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are  
 optimal,
 I have 48W left over to charge the battery.

 Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing  
 45W.  I
 still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
 charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun  
 will
 run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
 hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
 battery will stay charged.

 No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I  
 NEVER
 see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
 can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
 monitor battery condition it will work just fine.

 At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
 Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than  
 100w of
 panel.




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Josh Luthman
The way I understood it was if out of 799.2 hour span (33.3 days * 24
hours/day) there was 24 hours of sunlight.

Meaning for every ~800 hours at least 24 of them the sun was in the air
hitting the solar panel.  The other 776 was darkness.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
improbable, must be the truth.
--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 1:57 AM, Christopher Erickson 
christopher.k.erick...@gmail.com wrote:

 Could be but that isn't right either.

 24 hours of daylight is not the same as 24 hours of full current charging.

 The Sun rises and the Sun sets.

 Latitude and seasons aside, an 80 watt panel is only going to give about
 450 watt-hours a day at absolute best.

 -Christopher Erickson


  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
  Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com
  Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:43 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
  I don't think his 24 hours of sun number meant in one 24 hour period.
  I think he meant 24 hours of sun cumulative over 33 days. No?
 
  Greg
 
  On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:01 AM, Christopher Erickson wrote:
 
   First, the Sun never shines 24 hours in a day unless you are above
   the Arctic circle.  And even then, that only happens for a few days
   of the year.
  
   Second, there isn't much charging going on when the Sun is near the
   horizon, which is most of the time when in Northern latitudes.
  
   For example, an 80 watt panel will NEVER output 80 watts in Anchorage,
   Alaska because even at solar noon in the summer, the Sun is only
   around 60 degrees up in the sky.  And below about 25 degrees, there
   isn't any charging going on at all.
  
   So anyway think of an amperage sine wave that builds up in the
   morning,
   peaks at solar noon and then diminishes in the afternoon.
  
   The math is more complicated than it first appears.
  
   My advice is always free and worth every penny!
  
   -Christopher Erickson
   Network Design Engineer
   5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
   Anchorage, AK 99508
  
  
  
   -Original Message-
   From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
   boun...@wispa.org]on
   Behalf Of Mike
   Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:06 PM
   To: WISPA General List
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  
   I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
   pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
   I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
   I have 48W left over to charge the battery.
  
   Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
   still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
   charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
   run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
   hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
   battery will stay charged.
  
   No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
   see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
   can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
   monitor battery condition it will work just fine.
  
   At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
   Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
   panel.
  
  
  
  
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Josh Luthman
Chuck,

Current and average are int he 100s yet max is 5.7?  When in the world could
the amps be 127 or 929?!

Secondly, how are the amps negative?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
improbable, must be the truth.
--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com wrote:

 We're in KY.  I'm still not convinced if we are in the right location
 for solar vs utility company.  Getting an electrical drop depends on the
 location, but if you can I think it is worth going that route rather
 than putting in solar.  You will have less long term headaches.

 These two graphs represent the solar output of two sites.  One needs
 another solar panel to keep up (it has a windmill, but that isn't
 helping enough), but the other seems to be ok.  As you can see we have
 full sun at one location approximately 7hrs per day (too many trees),
 and at the other location it's more like 10 hrs.

 I highly recommend you be prepared to do some type of monitoring like
 this if you do solar.  That way you know if you are going to lose power.
 We also monitor current voltage level as well.  We use 24V at all our
 locations.

 Regards,
 Chuck Hogg
 Shelby Broadband
 502-722-9292
 ch...@shelbybb.com
 http://www.shelbybb.com


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:06 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
 pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
 I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
 I have 48W left over to charge the battery.

 Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
 still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
 charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
 run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
 hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
 battery will stay charged.

 No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
 see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
 can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
 monitor battery condition it will work just fine.

 At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
 Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
 panel.




 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Chuck Hogg
When it is in the negative, we are not generating enough solar power to
power the equipment.  I think it is a -.97844, and an average of
-.15677.  Like I said, at that site where it is negative we have to go
and charge the batteries with a generator every so often. 

Regards,
Chuck Hogg
Shelby Broadband
502-722-9292
ch...@shelbybb.com
http://www.shelbybb.com


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Josh Luthman
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 8:57 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

Chuck,

Current and average are int he 100s yet max is 5.7?  When in the world
could
the amps be 127 or 929?!

Secondly, how are the amps negative?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
improbable, must be the truth.
--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 8:51 AM, Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com wrote:

 We're in KY.  I'm still not convinced if we are in the right location
 for solar vs utility company.  Getting an electrical drop depends on
the
 location, but if you can I think it is worth going that route rather
 than putting in solar.  You will have less long term headaches.

 These two graphs represent the solar output of two sites.  One needs
 another solar panel to keep up (it has a windmill, but that isn't
 helping enough), but the other seems to be ok.  As you can see we have
 full sun at one location approximately 7hrs per day (too many trees),
 and at the other location it's more like 10 hrs.

 I highly recommend you be prepared to do some type of monitoring like
 this if you do solar.  That way you know if you are going to lose
power.
 We also monitor current voltage level as well.  We use 24V at all our
 locations.

 Regards,
 Chuck Hogg
 Shelby Broadband
 502-722-9292
 ch...@shelbybb.com
 http://www.shelbybb.com


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
On
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:06 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
 pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
 I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
 I have 48W left over to charge the battery.

 Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
 still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
 charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
 run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
 hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
 battery will stay charged.

 No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
 see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
 can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
 monitor battery condition it will work just fine.

 At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
 Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
 panel.






 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Mike Hammett
I think that's why they developed the sun hour maps I referenced earlier. 
They just tell you what to expect in your area for sun hours a day.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Christopher Erickson christopher.k.erick...@gmail.com
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:57 AM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Could be but that isn't right either.

 24 hours of daylight is not the same as 24 hours of full current charging.

 The Sun rises and the Sun sets.

 Latitude and seasons aside, an 80 watt panel is only going to give about
 450 watt-hours a day at absolute best.

 -Christopher Erickson


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:43 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 I don't think his 24 hours of sun number meant in one 24 hour period.
 I think he meant 24 hours of sun cumulative over 33 days. No?

 Greg

 On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:01 AM, Christopher Erickson wrote:

  First, the Sun never shines 24 hours in a day unless you are above
  the Arctic circle.  And even then, that only happens for a few days
  of the year.
 
  Second, there isn't much charging going on when the Sun is near the
  horizon, which is most of the time when in Northern latitudes.
 
  For example, an 80 watt panel will NEVER output 80 watts in Anchorage,
  Alaska because even at solar noon in the summer, the Sun is only
  around 60 degrees up in the sky.  And below about 25 degrees, there
  isn't any charging going on at all.
 
  So anyway think of an amperage sine wave that builds up in the
  morning,
  peaks at solar noon and then diminishes in the afternoon.
 
  The math is more complicated than it first appears.
 
  My advice is always free and worth every penny!
 
  -Christopher Erickson
  Network Design Engineer
  5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
  Anchorage, AK 99508
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
  boun...@wispa.org]on
  Behalf Of Mike
  Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:06 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
  I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
  pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
  I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
  I have 48W left over to charge the battery.
 
  Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
  still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
  charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
  run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
  hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
  battery will stay charged.
 
  No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
  see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
  can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
  monitor battery condition it will work just fine.
 
  At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
  Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
  panel.
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Terry Hickey
Good information
http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-sizing.html

- Original Message - 
From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:55 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


I think that's why they developed the sun hour maps I referenced earlier.
 They just tell you what to expect in your area for sun hours a day.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Christopher Erickson christopher.k.erick...@gmail.com
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:57 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Could be but that isn't right either.

 24 hours of daylight is not the same as 24 hours of full current 
 charging.

 The Sun rises and the Sun sets.

 Latitude and seasons aside, an 80 watt panel is only going to give about
 450 watt-hours a day at absolute best.

 -Christopher Erickson


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:43 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 I don't think his 24 hours of sun number meant in one 24 hour period.
 I think he meant 24 hours of sun cumulative over 33 days. No?

 Greg

 On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:01 AM, Christopher Erickson wrote:

  First, the Sun never shines 24 hours in a day unless you are above
  the Arctic circle.  And even then, that only happens for a few days
  of the year.
 
  Second, there isn't much charging going on when the Sun is near the
  horizon, which is most of the time when in Northern latitudes.
 
  For example, an 80 watt panel will NEVER output 80 watts in Anchorage,
  Alaska because even at solar noon in the summer, the Sun is only
  around 60 degrees up in the sky.  And below about 25 degrees, there
  isn't any charging going on at all.
 
  So anyway think of an amperage sine wave that builds up in the
  morning,
  peaks at solar noon and then diminishes in the afternoon.
 
  The math is more complicated than it first appears.
 
  My advice is always free and worth every penny!
 
  -Christopher Erickson
  Network Design Engineer
  5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
  Anchorage, AK 99508
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
  boun...@wispa.org]on
  Behalf Of Mike
  Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:06 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
  I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
  pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
  I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
  I have 48W left over to charge the battery.
 
  Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
  still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
  charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
  run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
  hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
  battery will stay charged.
 
  No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
  see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
  can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
  monitor battery condition it will work just fine.
 
  At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
  Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
  panel.
 
 
 




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Mike
Instead of talking 33.3 days and 24 hours of sun, let's just take an 
average day.

At optimal output, and for the sake of argument, let's say our 60W 
rated panels only produce 45W; optimally. Let's lob off 12% of that 
to satisfy the naysayers and devil's advocates, and to account for 
inefficiencies.  We have a power output of close enough to 40W.

Not all can do it, but for the short run repeater, and with two 
radios, let's say we run it at 12V, while loosing less heat at the 
voltage regulator on the radio.  Since we're rounding numbers, we'll 
call that 3.3A.  The radios require .8A.  During optimal conditions, 
there are 2.5A free to charge the battery.  On our average day, we 
have 6 hours of optimal sun, maybe more, maybe less. We have gained 
15AH of charge to send to our battery.  For 3 more hours of the day 
we will receive less than optimal output -- 2.5A, for another gain of 
5.1AH.  We now have 20.1AH more than we need to run the radios.  We 
will get another hour of diminished 1A or less output but will not 
consider that here.

So, during our 24 hours, we are either generating enough, or excess 
for 9 hours.  We have to store power for the 15 hours where our 
system is not generating power.  We have to provide 12AH for dark 
time.  We have already generated an excess of 20.1AH.  We can provide 
8.11AH on our average day to keep our battery charged.

If the 12V storage battery is capable of 800AH, and it is topped off 
with our system it CAN keep the repeater going for 41 days.  If you 
monitor battery condition, you should be able to see a net loss 
coming way before it shuts down the repeater.

Assumptions:
We are using efficient radios capable of running at 12V or 
less.  Let's say both are Atheros based Deliberant radios.
The CAT5 run to our radios is insignificant, and not some 200' run.
Hams, geeks and wisp owners are cut from similar cloth.

Mike





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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Christopher Erickson
Agreed.

Also two 6 volt golf cart batteries are quite a bit superior to two
12 volt deep cycle batteries.  The plates are just too thin in 12V
automotive/marine sized batteries to provide long life with deep
cycling.

And 6v golf cart batteries come in different Ah ratings from about
95 to about 170.  The CostCo 6V batts are the best Ah bang for the
buck but they are closer to the 95Ah end of the spectrum than the
170Ah end.  Basically, it is economy versus volume and availability.
Trojan has a great reputation for making high-quality, high Ah 6V
golf cart batteries.

And in lead-acid, NiMH and NiCad cells, the last 20% of charge
between 80% and 100% uses a lot more power to put in than the 
previous 80%.  This means the best and most efficient range of 
charge on a battery in off-grid, cycle service (versus float
service, like in a UPS) is to work the battery between about 25%
at minimum charge, up to 80% charge.  Don't even bother with the
last 20%.

And solar/wind/etc. chargers that are capable of monitoring
battery temperature are the ONLY way to go, to prevent over
charging, damaging the batteries and shortening their service
life.

And wind chargers usually don't last long in climates that are
subject to seasonal icing conditions.  The blades get iced, get
imbalanced and then tear the wind generator bearings to bits
over time.

My advice is always free and worth every penny!

-Christopher Erickson
Network Design Engineer
5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
Anchorage, AK 99508
N61?11.710' W149?46.723'




 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Terry Hickey
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:32 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 Good information
 http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-sizing.html
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 9:55 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 I think that's why they developed the sun hour maps I referenced earlier.
  They just tell you what to expect in your area for sun hours a day.
 
 
  -
  Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
  http://www.ics-il.com
 
 
 
  --
  From: Christopher Erickson christopher.k.erick...@gmail.com
  Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:57 AM
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
  Could be but that isn't right either.
 
  24 hours of daylight is not the same as 24 hours of full current 
  charging.
 
  The Sun rises and the Sun sets.
 
  Latitude and seasons aside, an 80 watt panel is only going to give about
  450 watt-hours a day at absolute best.
 
  -Christopher Erickson
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
  Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com
  Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:43 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
  I don't think his 24 hours of sun number meant in one 24 hour period.
  I think he meant 24 hours of sun cumulative over 33 days. No?
 
  Greg
 
  On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:01 AM, Christopher Erickson wrote:
 
   First, the Sun never shines 24 hours in a day unless you are above
   the Arctic circle.  And even then, that only happens for a few days
   of the year.
  
   Second, there isn't much charging going on when the Sun is near the
   horizon, which is most of the time when in Northern latitudes.
  
   For example, an 80 watt panel will NEVER output 80 watts in Anchorage,
   Alaska because even at solar noon in the summer, the Sun is only
   around 60 degrees up in the sky.  And below about 25 degrees, there
   isn't any charging going on at all.
  
   So anyway think of an amperage sine wave that builds up in the
   morning,
   peaks at solar noon and then diminishes in the afternoon.
  
   The math is more complicated than it first appears.
  
   My advice is always free and worth every penny!
  
   -Christopher Erickson
   Network Design Engineer
   5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
   Anchorage, AK 99508
  
  
  
   -Original Message-
   From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
   boun...@wispa.org]on
   Behalf Of Mike
   Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:06 PM
   To: WISPA General List
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  
   I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
   pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
   I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
   I have 48W left over to charge the battery.
  
   Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
   still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
   charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
   run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24

Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread jp
All this fuzzy math about hours of sun in 33.3 days is useless and not 
the way the calculators work.

If you are consuming 12w and generating 60w (4 toy panels), here's some 
math. 288w/day (12x24) load. According to the sun maps, we are in the 4 
hour of sun (average!) area according to the sun calculation charts. 
(Maine). This means 240w/day (60x4) generated. In such as case, if it's 
working, you are either running partly on existing battery charge, 
getting lucky with sunny weather, or not actually drawing 12w load.

Provide some overhead for charging, charging inneficiencies, cable 
loss, charge controller loss, bad weather. What percent overhead is 
based on how conservative the calculator is. If it's expensive to visit 
the site, go extra conservative.

I really like to see the batteries fully charged as much as possible. If 
you have batteries that stay fully charged most of the time, they won't 
freeze when it's -20f. My extra recommended 40w will help the batteries 
to stay fully charged and provide the overhead your calculations are 
missing. In cold weather, the AH capacity of the battery shrinks as 
well.

On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 11:05:33PM -0500, Mike wrote:
 I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is 
 pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If 
 I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal, 
 I have 48W left over to charge the battery.
 
 Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I 
 still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to 
 charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will 
 run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24 
 hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the 
 battery will stay charged.
 
 No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER 
 see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you 
 can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you 
 monitor battery condition it will work just fine.
 
 At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
 Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
 panel.
 
 
 
 
 
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 
  
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
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-- 
/*
Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL
KB1IOJ|   Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting 
 http://f64.nu/   |   for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/
*/



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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Josh Luthman
Do the math on the worst case scenario.

What kind of values do you need for the bad days - assuming you get a
minimal charge during cloudy days, how long does the few hours of that
charge last?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
improbable, must be the truth.
--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


On Thu, Aug 27, 2009 at 1:45 PM, jp j...@saucer.midcoast.com wrote:

 All this fuzzy math about hours of sun in 33.3 days is useless and not
 the way the calculators work.

 If you are consuming 12w and generating 60w (4 toy panels), here's some
 math. 288w/day (12x24) load. According to the sun maps, we are in the 4
 hour of sun (average!) area according to the sun calculation charts.
 (Maine). This means 240w/day (60x4) generated. In such as case, if it's
 working, you are either running partly on existing battery charge,
 getting lucky with sunny weather, or not actually drawing 12w load.

 Provide some overhead for charging, charging inneficiencies, cable
 loss, charge controller loss, bad weather. What percent overhead is
 based on how conservative the calculator is. If it's expensive to visit
 the site, go extra conservative.

 I really like to see the batteries fully charged as much as possible. If
 you have batteries that stay fully charged most of the time, they won't
 freeze when it's -20f. My extra recommended 40w will help the batteries
 to stay fully charged and provide the overhead your calculations are
 missing. In cold weather, the AH capacity of the battery shrinks as
 well.

 On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 11:05:33PM -0500, Mike wrote:
  I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
  pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
  I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
  I have 48W left over to charge the battery.
 
  Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
  still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
  charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
  run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
  hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
  battery will stay charged.
 
  No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
  see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
  can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
  monitor battery condition it will work just fine.
 
  At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
  Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
  panel.
 
 
 
 
 
 
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 
 
 
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

 --
 /*
 Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL
KB1IOJ|   Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting
  http://f64.nu/   |   for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/
 */



 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Christopher Erickson
I have designed a fair number of off-grid radio sites and in general,
I have come up with a few additional guidelines.

1. Have enough battery capacity to run for 7 days with zero charging.
This will give you a window of response time if the charging system
suffers a failure (or theft/vandalism) or there is an extended
episode of inclement weather.

2. Avoid as many power conversions as possible.

3. Avoid any equipment that has a built-in cooling fan.

4. 48 volt power systems are more efficient than 24 volt power systems
are more efficient than 12 volt power systems.

5. Avoid inverters and equipment that is 120VAC only.

6. Don't forget to consider environmental issues and projected
temperature extremes.

My advice is always free and worth every penny!

-Christopher Erickson
Network Design Engineer
5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
Anchorage, AK 99508
N61?11.710' W149?46.723'



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:35 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 Instead of talking 33.3 days and 24 hours of sun, let's just take an 
 average day.
 
 At optimal output, and for the sake of argument, let's say our 60W 
 rated panels only produce 45W; optimally. Let's lob off 12% of that 
 to satisfy the naysayers and devil's advocates, and to account for 
 inefficiencies.  We have a power output of close enough to 40W.
 
 Not all can do it, but for the short run repeater, and with two 
 radios, let's say we run it at 12V, while loosing less heat at the 
 voltage regulator on the radio.  Since we're rounding numbers, we'll 
 call that 3.3A.  The radios require .8A.  During optimal conditions, 
 there are 2.5A free to charge the battery.  On our average day, we 
 have 6 hours of optimal sun, maybe more, maybe less. We have gained 
 15AH of charge to send to our battery.  For 3 more hours of the day 
 we will receive less than optimal output -- 2.5A, for another gain of 
 5.1AH.  We now have 20.1AH more than we need to run the radios.  We 
 will get another hour of diminished 1A or less output but will not 
 consider that here.
 
 So, during our 24 hours, we are either generating enough, or excess 
 for 9 hours.  We have to store power for the 15 hours where our 
 system is not generating power.  We have to provide 12AH for dark 
 time.  We have already generated an excess of 20.1AH.  We can provide 
 8.11AH on our average day to keep our battery charged.
 
 If the 12V storage battery is capable of 800AH, and it is topped off 
 with our system it CAN keep the repeater going for 41 days.  If you 
 monitor battery condition, you should be able to see a net loss 
 coming way before it shuts down the repeater.
 
 Assumptions:
 We are using efficient radios capable of running at 12V or 
 less.  Let's say both are Atheros based Deliberant radios.
 The CAT5 run to our radios is insignificant, and not some 200' run.
 Hams, geeks and wisp owners are cut from similar cloth.
 
 Mike
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Chuck Profito
Chris,
Re #4:  Is that because the usable voltage? Ie: 11.2V of 12, 18 of 24? 36-38
of 48?  Are these close to correct for std POE? Or what WISP's use?

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

I have designed a fair number of off-grid radio sites and in general,
I have come up with a few additional guidelines.

1. Have enough battery capacity to run for 7 days with zero charging.
This will give you a window of response time if the charging system
suffers a failure (or theft/vandalism) or there is an extended
episode of inclement weather.

2. Avoid as many power conversions as possible.

3. Avoid any equipment that has a built-in cooling fan.

4. 48 volt power systems are more efficient than 24 volt power systems
are more efficient than 12 volt power systems.

5. Avoid inverters and equipment that is 120VAC only.

6. Don't forget to consider environmental issues and projected
temperature extremes.

My advice is always free and worth every penny!

-Christopher Erickson
Network Design Engineer
5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
Anchorage, AK 99508
N61?11.710' W149?46.723'



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:35 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 Instead of talking 33.3 days and 24 hours of sun, let's just take an 
 average day.
 
 At optimal output, and for the sake of argument, let's say our 60W 
 rated panels only produce 45W; optimally. Let's lob off 12% of that 
 to satisfy the naysayers and devil's advocates, and to account for 
 inefficiencies.  We have a power output of close enough to 40W.
 
 Not all can do it, but for the short run repeater, and with two 
 radios, let's say we run it at 12V, while loosing less heat at the 
 voltage regulator on the radio.  Since we're rounding numbers, we'll 
 call that 3.3A.  The radios require .8A.  During optimal conditions, 
 there are 2.5A free to charge the battery.  On our average day, we 
 have 6 hours of optimal sun, maybe more, maybe less. We have gained 
 15AH of charge to send to our battery.  For 3 more hours of the day 
 we will receive less than optimal output -- 2.5A, for another gain of 
 5.1AH.  We now have 20.1AH more than we need to run the radios.  We 
 will get another hour of diminished 1A or less output but will not 
 consider that here.
 
 So, during our 24 hours, we are either generating enough, or excess 
 for 9 hours.  We have to store power for the 15 hours where our 
 system is not generating power.  We have to provide 12AH for dark 
 time.  We have already generated an excess of 20.1AH.  We can provide 
 8.11AH on our average day to keep our battery charged.
 
 If the 12V storage battery is capable of 800AH, and it is topped off 
 with our system it CAN keep the repeater going for 41 days.  If you 
 monitor battery condition, you should be able to see a net loss 
 coming way before it shuts down the repeater.
 
 Assumptions:
 We are using efficient radios capable of running at 12V or 
 less.  Let's say both are Atheros based Deliberant radios.
 The CAT5 run to our radios is insignificant, and not some 200' run.
 Hams, geeks and wisp owners are cut from similar cloth.
 
 Mike
 
 
 
 
 --
 --
 WISPA Wants You! Join today!
 http://signup.wispa.org/
 --
 --
  
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Christopher Erickson
* 48 volt power system (actually -48VDC) is a telco standard and
there is a LOT of carrier-class telecom equipment and charging
systems designed to operate on that voltage.  Especially a lot
of remote management control and monitoring stuff.

* For the same watts, when voltage goes up, amperage goes down.
This means less percentage energy loss from voltage drop in
wiring and the ability to use smaller gauge wire for power.

* Using high-efficiency Picoverters to power 12VDC and 24VDC
devices from 48VDC means that your 12VDC devices can still
operate reliably when the 48VDC battery plant is down to near
exhaustion.

My advice is always free and worth every penny!

-Christopher Erickson
Network Design Engineer
5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
Anchorage, AK 99508
N61?11.710' W149?46.723'



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Chuck Profito
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:09 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 Chris,
 Re #4:  Is that because the usable voltage? Ie: 11.2V of 12, 18 of 24? 36-38
 of 48?  Are these close to correct for std POE? Or what WISP's use?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:53 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 I have designed a fair number of off-grid radio sites and in general,
 I have come up with a few additional guidelines.
 
 1. Have enough battery capacity to run for 7 days with zero charging.
 This will give you a window of response time if the charging system
 suffers a failure (or theft/vandalism) or there is an extended
 episode of inclement weather.
 
 2. Avoid as many power conversions as possible.
 
 3. Avoid any equipment that has a built-in cooling fan.
 
 4. 48 volt power systems are more efficient than 24 volt power systems
 are more efficient than 12 volt power systems.
 
 5. Avoid inverters and equipment that is 120VAC only.
 
 6. Don't forget to consider environmental issues and projected
 temperature extremes.
 
 My advice is always free and worth every penny!
 
 -Christopher Erickson
 Network Design Engineer
 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
 Anchorage, AK 99508
 N61?11.710' W149?46.723'
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
  Behalf Of Mike
  Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:35 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  
  Instead of talking 33.3 days and 24 hours of sun, let's just take an 
  average day.
  
  At optimal output, and for the sake of argument, let's say our 60W 
  rated panels only produce 45W; optimally. Let's lob off 12% of that 
  to satisfy the naysayers and devil's advocates, and to account for 
  inefficiencies.  We have a power output of close enough to 40W.
  
  Not all can do it, but for the short run repeater, and with two 
  radios, let's say we run it at 12V, while loosing less heat at the 
  voltage regulator on the radio.  Since we're rounding numbers, we'll 
  call that 3.3A.  The radios require .8A.  During optimal conditions, 
  there are 2.5A free to charge the battery.  On our average day, we 
  have 6 hours of optimal sun, maybe more, maybe less. We have gained 
  15AH of charge to send to our battery.  For 3 more hours of the day 
  we will receive less than optimal output -- 2.5A, for another gain of 
  5.1AH.  We now have 20.1AH more than we need to run the radios.  We 
  will get another hour of diminished 1A or less output but will not 
  consider that here.
  
  So, during our 24 hours, we are either generating enough, or excess 
  for 9 hours.  We have to store power for the 15 hours where our 
  system is not generating power.  We have to provide 12AH for dark 
  time.  We have already generated an excess of 20.1AH.  We can provide 
  8.11AH on our average day to keep our battery charged.
  
  If the 12V storage battery is capable of 800AH, and it is topped off 
  with our system it CAN keep the repeater going for 41 days.  If you 
  monitor battery condition, you should be able to see a net loss 
  coming way before it shuts down the repeater.
  
  Assumptions:
  We are using efficient radios capable of running at 12V or 
  less.  Let's say both are Atheros based Deliberant radios.
  The CAT5 run to our radios is insignificant, and not some 200' run.
  Hams, geeks and wisp owners are cut from similar cloth.
  
  Mike
  
  
  
  
  --
  --
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
  --
  --
   
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
  
  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
  
  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless

Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Chuck Profito
Thank you Chris for a great explanation!  But it brings to mind two more
questions (I know, I'm a PITA)

Do Picoverters have much loss? ( I think I know inverters lose 20% or more )

And what is 'near exhaustion' on a 48 vdc plant? ( I'm assuming 4 12 volt
batteries or 8 6 volt golf cart batteries ) Say  a piconverter running 48 to
24vdc, how low can the input voltage go and it still supply 24 volts to a 4
radio board?

I'm asking this question because we currently have a very well operating
solar site with 2 deep cycle marine batteries, running 24vdc direct POE. Now
on a new site, would using a 48 to 24vdc option, would it extend our dark /
foggy day capacity appreciably? 

Chuck Profito
209-988-7388
CV-ACCESS, INC
cprof...@cv-access.com 
Providing High Speed Broadband 
to Rural Central California



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

* 48 volt power system (actually -48VDC) is a telco standard and
there is a LOT of carrier-class telecom equipment and charging
systems designed to operate on that voltage.  Especially a lot
of remote management control and monitoring stuff.

* For the same watts, when voltage goes up, amperage goes down.
This means less percentage energy loss from voltage drop in
wiring and the ability to use smaller gauge wire for power.

* Using high-efficiency Picoverters to power 12VDC and 24VDC
devices from 48VDC means that your 12VDC devices can still
operate reliably when the 48VDC battery plant is down to near
exhaustion.

My advice is always free and worth every penny!

-Christopher Erickson
Network Design Engineer
5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
Anchorage, AK 99508
N61?11.710' W149?46.723'



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Chuck Profito
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:09 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 Chris,
 Re #4:  Is that because the usable voltage? Ie: 11.2V of 12, 18 of 24?
36-38
 of 48?  Are these close to correct for std POE? Or what WISP's use?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:53 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 I have designed a fair number of off-grid radio sites and in general,
 I have come up with a few additional guidelines.
 
 1. Have enough battery capacity to run for 7 days with zero charging.
 This will give you a window of response time if the charging system
 suffers a failure (or theft/vandalism) or there is an extended
 episode of inclement weather.
 
 2. Avoid as many power conversions as possible.
 
 3. Avoid any equipment that has a built-in cooling fan.
 
 4. 48 volt power systems are more efficient than 24 volt power systems
 are more efficient than 12 volt power systems.
 
 5. Avoid inverters and equipment that is 120VAC only.
 
 6. Don't forget to consider environmental issues and projected
 temperature extremes.
 
 My advice is always free and worth every penny!
 
 -Christopher Erickson
 Network Design Engineer
 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
 Anchorage, AK 99508
 N61?11.710' W149?46.723'
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
  Behalf Of Mike
  Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:35 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  
  Instead of talking 33.3 days and 24 hours of sun, let's just take an 
  average day.
  
  At optimal output, and for the sake of argument, let's say our 60W 
  rated panels only produce 45W; optimally. Let's lob off 12% of that 
  to satisfy the naysayers and devil's advocates, and to account for 
  inefficiencies.  We have a power output of close enough to 40W.
  
  Not all can do it, but for the short run repeater, and with two 
  radios, let's say we run it at 12V, while loosing less heat at the 
  voltage regulator on the radio.  Since we're rounding numbers, we'll 
  call that 3.3A.  The radios require .8A.  During optimal conditions, 
  there are 2.5A free to charge the battery.  On our average day, we 
  have 6 hours of optimal sun, maybe more, maybe less. We have gained 
  15AH of charge to send to our battery.  For 3 more hours of the day 
  we will receive less than optimal output -- 2.5A, for another gain of 
  5.1AH.  We now have 20.1AH more than we need to run the radios.  We 
  will get another hour of diminished 1A or less output but will not 
  consider that here.
  
  So, during our 24 hours, we are either generating enough, or excess 
  for 9 hours.  We have to store power for the 15 hours where our 
  system is not generating power.  We have to provide 12AH for dark 
  time.  We have already generated an excess of 20.1AH.  We

Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread ralph
But isn't your panel expense 2 to 4 times as much?
I looked at powering some Tropos and Cisco mesh with solar and compared 48v
with 12 volt.
The 12 volt used a really high efficiency inverter to 120v and then to the
radio.
It was less than half the overall cost of the 48v system.

Ralph

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 2:31 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

* 48 volt power system (actually -48VDC) is a telco standard and
there is a LOT of carrier-class telecom equipment and charging
systems designed to operate on that voltage.  Especially a lot
of remote management control and monitoring stuff.

* For the same watts, when voltage goes up, amperage goes down.
This means less percentage energy loss from voltage drop in
wiring and the ability to use smaller gauge wire for power.

* Using high-efficiency Picoverters to power 12VDC and 24VDC
devices from 48VDC means that your 12VDC devices can still
operate reliably when the 48VDC battery plant is down to near
exhaustion.

My advice is always free and worth every penny!

-Christopher Erickson
Network Design Engineer
5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
Anchorage, AK 99508
N61?11.710' W149?46.723'



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Chuck Profito
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:09 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 Chris,
 Re #4:  Is that because the usable voltage? Ie: 11.2V of 12, 18 of 24?
36-38
 of 48?  Are these close to correct for std POE? Or what WISP's use?
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:53 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 I have designed a fair number of off-grid radio sites and in general,
 I have come up with a few additional guidelines.
 
 1. Have enough battery capacity to run for 7 days with zero charging.
 This will give you a window of response time if the charging system
 suffers a failure (or theft/vandalism) or there is an extended
 episode of inclement weather.
 
 2. Avoid as many power conversions as possible.
 
 3. Avoid any equipment that has a built-in cooling fan.
 
 4. 48 volt power systems are more efficient than 24 volt power systems
 are more efficient than 12 volt power systems.
 
 5. Avoid inverters and equipment that is 120VAC only.
 
 6. Don't forget to consider environmental issues and projected
 temperature extremes.
 
 My advice is always free and worth every penny!
 
 -Christopher Erickson
 Network Design Engineer
 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
 Anchorage, AK 99508
 N61?11.710' W149?46.723'
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
  Behalf Of Mike
  Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:35 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  
  Instead of talking 33.3 days and 24 hours of sun, let's just take an 
  average day.
  
  At optimal output, and for the sake of argument, let's say our 60W 
  rated panels only produce 45W; optimally. Let's lob off 12% of that 
  to satisfy the naysayers and devil's advocates, and to account for 
  inefficiencies.  We have a power output of close enough to 40W.
  
  Not all can do it, but for the short run repeater, and with two 
  radios, let's say we run it at 12V, while loosing less heat at the 
  voltage regulator on the radio.  Since we're rounding numbers, we'll 
  call that 3.3A.  The radios require .8A.  During optimal conditions, 
  there are 2.5A free to charge the battery.  On our average day, we 
  have 6 hours of optimal sun, maybe more, maybe less. We have gained 
  15AH of charge to send to our battery.  For 3 more hours of the day 
  we will receive less than optimal output -- 2.5A, for another gain of 
  5.1AH.  We now have 20.1AH more than we need to run the radios.  We 
  will get another hour of diminished 1A or less output but will not 
  consider that here.
  
  So, during our 24 hours, we are either generating enough, or excess 
  for 9 hours.  We have to store power for the 15 hours where our 
  system is not generating power.  We have to provide 12AH for dark 
  time.  We have already generated an excess of 20.1AH.  We can provide 
  8.11AH on our average day to keep our battery charged.
  
  If the 12V storage battery is capable of 800AH, and it is topped off 
  with our system it CAN keep the repeater going for 41 days.  If you 
  monitor battery condition, you should be able to see a net loss 
  coming way before it shuts down the repeater.
  
  Assumptions:
  We are using efficient radios capable of running at 12V or 
  less.  Let's say both are Atheros based Deliberant radios.
  The CAT5 run to our radios is insignificant

Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Christopher Erickson
Here is the info on the Picoverters and other high efficiency converters
from RO Associates:

http://www.roassoc.com

Average efficiency of about 87%.

I wish it were 97%.

Adding more 6V batts for more overall watt-hours of capacity will be the
best way to extend run time.

My advice is always free and worth every penny!

-Christopher Erickson
Network Design Engineer
5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
Anchorage, AK 99508
N61?11.710' W149?46.723'




 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Chuck Profito
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 12:18 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 Thank you Chris for a great explanation!  But it brings to mind two more
 questions (I know, I'm a PITA)
 
 Do Picoverters have much loss? ( I think I know inverters lose 20% or more )
 
 And what is 'near exhaustion' on a 48 vdc plant? ( I'm assuming 4 12 volt
 batteries or 8 6 volt golf cart batteries ) Say  a piconverter running 48 to
 24vdc, how low can the input voltage go and it still supply 24 volts to a 4
 radio board?
 
 I'm asking this question because we currently have a very well operating
 solar site with 2 deep cycle marine batteries, running 24vdc direct POE. Now
 on a new site, would using a 48 to 24vdc option, would it extend our dark /
 foggy day capacity appreciably? 
 
 Chuck Profito
 209-988-7388
 CV-ACCESS, INC
 cprof...@cv-access.com 
 Providing High Speed Broadband 
 to Rural Central California
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:31 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 * 48 volt power system (actually -48VDC) is a telco standard and
 there is a LOT of carrier-class telecom equipment and charging
 systems designed to operate on that voltage.  Especially a lot
 of remote management control and monitoring stuff.
 
 * For the same watts, when voltage goes up, amperage goes down.
 This means less percentage energy loss from voltage drop in
 wiring and the ability to use smaller gauge wire for power.
 
 * Using high-efficiency Picoverters to power 12VDC and 24VDC
 devices from 48VDC means that your 12VDC devices can still
 operate reliably when the 48VDC battery plant is down to near
 exhaustion.
 
 My advice is always free and worth every penny!
 
 -Christopher Erickson
 Network Design Engineer
 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
 Anchorage, AK 99508
 N61?11.710' W149?46.723'
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
  Behalf Of Chuck Profito
  Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:09 AM
  To: 'WISPA General List'
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  
  Chris,
  Re #4:  Is that because the usable voltage? Ie: 11.2V of 12, 18 of 24?
 36-38
  of 48?  Are these close to correct for std POE? Or what WISP's use?
  
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
  Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
  Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:53 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  I have designed a fair number of off-grid radio sites and in general,
  I have come up with a few additional guidelines.
  
  1. Have enough battery capacity to run for 7 days with zero charging.
  This will give you a window of response time if the charging system
  suffers a failure (or theft/vandalism) or there is an extended
  episode of inclement weather.
  
  2. Avoid as many power conversions as possible.
  
  3. Avoid any equipment that has a built-in cooling fan.
  
  4. 48 volt power systems are more efficient than 24 volt power systems
  are more efficient than 12 volt power systems.
  
  5. Avoid inverters and equipment that is 120VAC only.
  
  6. Don't forget to consider environmental issues and projected
  temperature extremes.
  
  My advice is always free and worth every penny!
  
  -Christopher Erickson
  Network Design Engineer
  5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
  Anchorage, AK 99508
  N61?11.710' W149?46.723'
  
  
  
   -Original Message-
   From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
   Behalf Of Mike
   Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:35 AM
   To: WISPA General List
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
   
   
   Instead of talking 33.3 days and 24 hours of sun, let's just take an 
   average day.
   
   At optimal output, and for the sake of argument, let's say our 60W 
   rated panels only produce 45W; optimally. Let's lob off 12% of that 
   to satisfy the naysayers and devil's advocates, and to account for 
   inefficiencies.  We have a power output of close enough to 40W.
   
   Not all can do it, but for the short run repeater, and with two 
   radios, let's say we run it at 12V, while loosing less heat at the 
   voltage regulator on the radio.  Since we're

Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Christopher Erickson
48VDC equipment is almost always carrier-class and that is where
the expense is.  That isn't quite the same as having a 48VDC power
plant with non carrier-class equipment running on it.

What is really absurd is converting a 12/24/48VDC battery plant to
120VAC to feed a piece of equipment that is going to convert it
back down to 5VDC and 12VDC using a reasonably reliable but highly
inefficient computer type switching power supply.

Cisco and Motorola make some of the most power-inefficient networking
and radio equipment on the market.

No big deal when you are on the grid.  But a real big deal when you
are not.  I guess off-grid sites are just too tiny a portion of their
market to worry about.

My advice is always free and worth every penny!

-Christopher Erickson
Network Design Engineer
5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
Anchorage, AK 99508
N61?11.710' W149?46.723'


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of ralph
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 1:26 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 But isn't your panel expense 2 to 4 times as much?
 I looked at powering some Tropos and Cisco mesh with solar and compared 48v
 with 12 volt.
 The 12 volt used a really high efficiency inverter to 120v and then to the
 radio.
 It was less than half the overall cost of the 48v system.
 
 Ralph
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
 Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 2:31 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 * 48 volt power system (actually -48VDC) is a telco standard and
 there is a LOT of carrier-class telecom equipment and charging
 systems designed to operate on that voltage.  Especially a lot
 of remote management control and monitoring stuff.
 
 * For the same watts, when voltage goes up, amperage goes down.
 This means less percentage energy loss from voltage drop in
 wiring and the ability to use smaller gauge wire for power.
 
 * Using high-efficiency Picoverters to power 12VDC and 24VDC
 devices from 48VDC means that your 12VDC devices can still
 operate reliably when the 48VDC battery plant is down to near
 exhaustion.
 
 My advice is always free and worth every penny!
 
 -Christopher Erickson
 Network Design Engineer
 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
 Anchorage, AK 99508
 N61?11.710' W149?46.723'
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
  Behalf Of Chuck Profito
  Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 11:09 AM
  To: 'WISPA General List'
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  
  Chris,
  Re #4:  Is that because the usable voltage? Ie: 11.2V of 12, 18 of 24?
 36-38
  of 48?  Are these close to correct for std POE? Or what WISP's use?
  
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
  Behalf Of Christopher Erickson
  Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:53 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  I have designed a fair number of off-grid radio sites and in general,
  I have come up with a few additional guidelines.
  
  1. Have enough battery capacity to run for 7 days with zero charging.
  This will give you a window of response time if the charging system
  suffers a failure (or theft/vandalism) or there is an extended
  episode of inclement weather.
  
  2. Avoid as many power conversions as possible.
  
  3. Avoid any equipment that has a built-in cooling fan.
  
  4. 48 volt power systems are more efficient than 24 volt power systems
  are more efficient than 12 volt power systems.
  
  5. Avoid inverters and equipment that is 120VAC only.
  
  6. Don't forget to consider environmental issues and projected
  temperature extremes.
  
  My advice is always free and worth every penny!
  
  -Christopher Erickson
  Network Design Engineer
  5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
  Anchorage, AK 99508
  N61?11.710' W149?46.723'
  
  
  
   -Original Message-
   From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
   Behalf Of Mike
   Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2009 10:35 AM
   To: WISPA General List
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
   
   
   Instead of talking 33.3 days and 24 hours of sun, let's just take an 
   average day.
   
   At optimal output, and for the sake of argument, let's say our 60W 
   rated panels only produce 45W; optimally. Let's lob off 12% of that 
   to satisfy the naysayers and devil's advocates, and to account for 
   inefficiencies.  We have a power output of close enough to 40W.
   
   Not all can do it, but for the short run repeater, and with two 
   radios, let's say we run it at 12V, while loosing less heat at the 
   voltage regulator on the radio.  Since we're rounding numbers, we'll 
   call that 3.3A.  The radios require .8A.  During optimal conditions, 
   there are 2.5A free

Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-27 Thread Steve Hoffmann
Hey Marlon,

I have an employee that has this exact setup and has been running it for
2 years with no problems.

Contact me offlist if you would like his name and number.  I'm sure he
would be glad to talk with you.

Steve
Pocketinet, Inc.
st...@pocketinet.com

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 9:10 PM
To: WISPA General List
Cc: Principal WISPA Member List; isp-wirel...@isp-wireless.com
Subject: [WISPA] solar site

Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a
lot of 
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due
to 
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment 
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's 
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
this 
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less
than 
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low 
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy
or 
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation. 
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!) 
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon





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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Blair Davis




Wonder Pole?

Please tell me more!

Mike wrote:

  This particular setup is mounted to a 4 x 6 x 4 Wells Cargo enclosed 
trailer.  I painted it bright white and added my logo and on one side 
Solar Powered Wireless.  I park it at events and provide free 
WiFi.  I park it downtown every Friday for Farmers Market and the 
name recognition has been outstanding.

I have a 40 foot Wonder Pole mounted to the side I swing into 
position and hoist a Deliberant panel up.  Inside the trailer I have 
a Deliberant AP2i doing DHCP and giving out access.  I don't push the 
pole up farther than 15 or 20 feet for events, but will run it all 
the way up for site surveys on occasion.

Both radios pull less than an Amp total and the system supplies 2.5 
Amp in good sun.  The 800 Amp hour battery will run it for 800 hours?

Mike

At 08:04 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
  
  
Interesting. What radios are you powering this with?

Scottie

-- Original Message --
From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:50:14 -0500



  I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
my own.  So far, the "fully charged" light comes on every day.  The
battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
not be the club way to do it, but it works.

Mike

At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
  
  
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I 

  

need a lot of


  
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll 

  

have less than


  
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon



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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Mike
http://www.wonderpole.com/wp640_630.html

I have had very good service from this device.  Don't over-tighten 
the section rings in the field unless you have a pair of channel 
locks with you.  Don't ask me how I know that.

At 01:59 AM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
Wonder Pole?

Please tell me more!

Mike wrote:

This particular setup is mounted to a 4 x 6 x 4 Wells Cargo enclosed
trailer.  I painted it bright white and added my logo and on one side
Solar Powered Wireless.  I park it at events and provide free
WiFi.  I park it downtown every Friday for Farmers Market and the
name recognition has been outstanding.

I have a 40 foot Wonder Pole mounted to the side I swing into
position and hoist a Deliberant panel up.  Inside the trailer I have
a Deliberant AP2i doing DHCP and giving out access.  I don't push the
pole up farther than 15 or 20 feet for events, but will run it all
the way up for site surveys on occasion.

Both radios pull less than an Amp total and the system supplies 2.5
Amp in good sun.  The 800 Amp hour battery will run it for 800 hours?

Mike

At 08:04 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:


Interesting. What radios are you powering this with?

Scottie

-- Original Message --
From: Mike mailto:m...@aweiowa.comm...@aweiowa.com
Reply-To: WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.orgwireless@wispa.org
Date:  Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:50:14 -0500



I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
not be the club way to do it, but it works.

Mike

At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:


Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I


need a lot of


help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a 
hill that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll


have less than


a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind 
generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from 
(vendors welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon



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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Mike
I'd love to add that to my trailer.  What is the make?



At 11:36 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
That sounds like great public service and a way to get recognized too!

If you want to see something that really gets attention, have a look at my
site survey/portable AP rig.
http://ralphfowler.com
I have been reluctant to put signs on it though, for obvious reasons.
(people already think I am toting a rocket launcher) LOL
  Ralph

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:57 PM
To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

This particular setup is mounted to a 4 x 6 x 4 Wells Cargo enclosed
trailer.  I painted it bright white and added my logo and on one side
Solar Powered Wireless.  I park it at events and provide free
WiFi.  I park it downtown every Friday for Farmers Market and the
name recognition has been outstanding.

I have a 40 foot Wonder Pole mounted to the side I swing into
position and hoist a Deliberant panel up.  Inside the trailer I have
a Deliberant AP2i doing DHCP and giving out access.  I don't push the
pole up farther than 15 or 20 feet for events, but will run it all
the way up for site surveys on occasion.

Both radios pull less than an Amp total and the system supplies 2.5
Amp in good sun.  The 800 Amp hour battery will run it for 800 hours?

Mike

At 08:04 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
 Interesting. What radios are you powering this with?
 
 Scottie
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:50:14 -0500
 
  I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
  charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
  my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
  battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
  not be the club way to do it, but it works.
  
  Mike
  
  At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
  Hi All,
  
  Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I
  need a lot of
  help.
  
  I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due
to
  the costs I've seen tossed about.
  
  Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
  needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's
  within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.
  
  I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
this
  site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll
  have less than
  a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).
  
  We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
  clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy
or
  cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation.
  I think.
  
  So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!)
  and anything else I'm missing.
  
  Thanks all!
  marlon
  
  
  
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread ralph
Were you speaking of the pneumatic mast in my pics, or of the wonder pole?

Mine is a Wil-burt  or Wilburt and they cost a bunch- like $5,000.00 new.
But since the DTV rollout is complete, there should be surplus ENG trucks
around with these masts.
The TV stations started keeping their old trucks to use for testing. I
actually had one given to me complete with pole and generator.
I could not go get it and the station decided to keep it for DTV testing.
Call around to your local stations and ask about surplus ENG trucks.



-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:40 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

I'd love to add that to my trailer.  What is the make?



At 11:36 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
That sounds like great public service and a way to get recognized too!

If you want to see something that really gets attention, have a look at my
site survey/portable AP rig.
http://ralphfowler.com
I have been reluctant to put signs on it though, for obvious reasons.
(people already think I am toting a rocket launcher) LOL
  Ralph

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:57 PM
To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

This particular setup is mounted to a 4 x 6 x 4 Wells Cargo enclosed
trailer.  I painted it bright white and added my logo and on one side
Solar Powered Wireless.  I park it at events and provide free
WiFi.  I park it downtown every Friday for Farmers Market and the
name recognition has been outstanding.

I have a 40 foot Wonder Pole mounted to the side I swing into
position and hoist a Deliberant panel up.  Inside the trailer I have
a Deliberant AP2i doing DHCP and giving out access.  I don't push the
pole up farther than 15 or 20 feet for events, but will run it all
the way up for site surveys on occasion.

Both radios pull less than an Amp total and the system supplies 2.5
Amp in good sun.  The 800 Amp hour battery will run it for 800 hours?

Mike

At 08:04 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
 Interesting. What radios are you powering this with?
 
 Scottie
 
 -- Original Message --
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:50:14 -0500
 
  I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
  charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
  my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
  battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
  not be the club way to do it, but it works.
  
  Mike
  
  At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
  Hi All,
  
  Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I
  need a lot of
  help.
  
  I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due
to
  the costs I've seen tossed about.
  
  Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
  needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's
  within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.
  
  I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
this
  site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll
  have less than
  a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).
  
  We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or
low
  clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the
foggy
or
  cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation.
  I think.
  
  So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!)
  and anything else I'm missing.
  
  Thanks all!
  marlon
  
  
  
  --
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  http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Josh Luthman
Would the wonder pole handle a wind load of an NS2/Canopy?  What about a
massive Arc MT combo?

How do you mount the base?  Can this be made mobile/temporary?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
improbable, must be the truth.
--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 8:55 AM, ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org wrote:

 Were you speaking of the pneumatic mast in my pics, or of the wonder pole?

 Mine is a Wil-burt  or Wilburt and they cost a bunch- like $5,000.00 new.
 But since the DTV rollout is complete, there should be surplus ENG trucks
 around with these masts.
 The TV stations started keeping their old trucks to use for testing. I
 actually had one given to me complete with pole and generator.
 I could not go get it and the station decided to keep it for DTV testing.
 Call around to your local stations and ask about surplus ENG trucks.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:40 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 I'd love to add that to my trailer.  What is the make?



 At 11:36 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
 That sounds like great public service and a way to get recognized too!
 
 If you want to see something that really gets attention, have a look at my
 site survey/portable AP rig.
 http://ralphfowler.com
 I have been reluctant to put signs on it though, for obvious reasons.
 (people already think I am toting a rocket launcher) LOL
   Ralph
 
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:57 PM
 To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 This particular setup is mounted to a 4 x 6 x 4 Wells Cargo enclosed
 trailer.  I painted it bright white and added my logo and on one side
 Solar Powered Wireless.  I park it at events and provide free
 WiFi.  I park it downtown every Friday for Farmers Market and the
 name recognition has been outstanding.
 
 I have a 40 foot Wonder Pole mounted to the side I swing into
 position and hoist a Deliberant panel up.  Inside the trailer I have
 a Deliberant AP2i doing DHCP and giving out access.  I don't push the
 pole up farther than 15 or 20 feet for events, but will run it all
 the way up for site surveys on occasion.
 
 Both radios pull less than an Amp total and the system supplies 2.5
 Amp in good sun.  The 800 Amp hour battery will run it for 800 hours?
 
 Mike
 
 At 08:04 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
  Interesting. What radios are you powering this with?
  
  Scottie
  
  -- Original Message --
  From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
  Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Date:  Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:50:14 -0500
  
   I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
   charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
   my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
   battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
   not be the club way to do it, but it works.
   
   Mike
   
   At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
   Hi All,
   
   Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I
   need a lot of
   help.
   
   I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them
 due
 to
   the costs I've seen tossed about.
   
   Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial
 equipment
   needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
 that's
   within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.
   
   I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
 this
   site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll
   have less than
   a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).
   
   We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or
 low
   clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the
 foggy
 or
   cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
 generation.
   I think.
   
   So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
 welcome!)
   and anything else I'm missing.
   
   Thanks all!
   marlon
   
   
   
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   --
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Mark McElvy
The solar list that I participate in recommend not using the charge
controller included in that kit as it is junk. They always recommend
MorningStar for like $60.00.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of ralph
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:38 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

I was going to ask about this. 
Harbor freight has a set of 3 on sale for 199 with controller and a few
other goodies.
I keep meaning to go get some before they go off sale again (I may be
too
late already)


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 2:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

I was shocked to find the 15W panels at Northern for $79.00.  I 
ordered some and they work great.  You need a charge controller, 
$45.00 to keep the batteries from over charging.  You have to get 
creative with uni-strut and angle iron to make your own mount, or buy 
them.  Batteries are the biggest expense.  So to answer your question,
yes.


At 11:29 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar
system
good enough for our radios these days?

Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
marlon







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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread ralph
Thanks
What do they say about the panels themselves?


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mark McElvy
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:02 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

The solar list that I participate in recommend not using the charge
controller included in that kit as it is junk. They always recommend
MorningStar for like $60.00.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of ralph
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:38 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

I was going to ask about this. 
Harbor freight has a set of 3 on sale for 199 with controller and a few
other goodies.
I keep meaning to go get some before they go off sale again (I may be
too
late already)


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 2:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

I was shocked to find the 15W panels at Northern for $79.00.  I 
ordered some and they work great.  You need a charge controller, 
$45.00 to keep the batteries from over charging.  You have to get 
creative with uni-strut and angle iron to make your own mount, or buy 
them.  Batteries are the biggest expense.  So to answer your question,
yes.


At 11:29 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar
system
good enough for our radios these days?

Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
marlon







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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Mike
It depends on how high you push it up.  I *HAVE* had it all the way 
up with a 12 panel, low wind condition, one person on the ground and 
the other sitting on the gable end of a roof for testing.  The top 
two sections get a little wispy (pun intended) for big panels, or to 
leave up.  I regularly put it 20' - 26' and leave it with a panel attached.

They sell a drive-on mount with a socket for holding it.  I just 
mounted mine through the trailer side with one of those nice alloy 
dish mounts so I can rotate it to about 45 degrees for 
transport.  When I set it up, I rotate upright, put the end into a 
socket I made from one of those floor PVC toilet bowl 
flanges.  Eyeball along a building or vertical surface in two planes 
and you get the whole thing somewhat vertical.  Above the mount, on 
the side of the trailer, I put two stainless eye bolts.  Once I get 
the mast vertical, I put a custom fitted piece of wood with an arc 
cut in the end to fit the pole, between the pole and trailer and lash 
it with a bungy cord.  Gives it a third attachment point along the 
trailer side; ground, middle, near the top.  It's raining pretty hard 
right now or I'd take a picture.

I can set it up on Friday in about 20 minutes at the market.


At 08:03 AM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
Would the wonder pole handle a wind load of an NS2/Canopy?  What about a
massive Arc MT combo?

How do you mount the base?  Can this be made mobile/temporary?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
improbable, must be the truth.
--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 8:55 AM, ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org wrote:

  Were you speaking of the pneumatic mast in my pics, or of the wonder pole?
 
  Mine is a Wil-burt  or Wilburt and they cost a bunch- like $5,000.00 new.
  But since the DTV rollout is complete, there should be surplus ENG trucks
  around with these masts.
  The TV stations started keeping their old trucks to use for testing. I
  actually had one given to me complete with pole and generator.
  I could not go get it and the station decided to keep it for DTV testing.
  Call around to your local stations and ask about surplus ENG trucks.
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
  Behalf Of Mike
  Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:40 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
  I'd love to add that to my trailer.  What is the make?
 
 
 
  At 11:36 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
  That sounds like great public service and a way to get recognized too!
  
  If you want to see something that really gets attention, have a look at my
  site survey/portable AP rig.
  http://ralphfowler.com
  I have been reluctant to put signs on it though, for obvious reasons.
  (people already think I am toting a rocket launcher) LOL
Ralph
  
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
  Behalf Of Mike
  Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:57 PM
  To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
  
  This particular setup is mounted to a 4 x 6 x 4 Wells Cargo enclosed
  trailer.  I painted it bright white and added my logo and on one side
  Solar Powered Wireless.  I park it at events and provide free
  WiFi.  I park it downtown every Friday for Farmers Market and the
  name recognition has been outstanding.
  
  I have a 40 foot Wonder Pole mounted to the side I swing into
  position and hoist a Deliberant panel up.  Inside the trailer I have
  a Deliberant AP2i doing DHCP and giving out access.  I don't push the
  pole up farther than 15 or 20 feet for events, but will run it all
  the way up for site surveys on occasion.
  
  Both radios pull less than an Amp total and the system supplies 2.5
  Amp in good sun.  The 800 Amp hour battery will run it for 800 hours?
  
  Mike
  
  At 08:04 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
   Interesting. What radios are you powering this with?
   
   Scottie
   
   -- Original Message --
   From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
   Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
   Date:  Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:50:14 -0500
   
I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
not be the club way to do it, but it works.

Mike

At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I
need a lot of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them
  due
  to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase

Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Mike
The solar panels look just like the $79.00 Northern ones.  I am 
curious how they built the PVC frame.  Not a bad deal considering 
it also has the controller *AND* an inverter you could keep in the 
truck to power your laptop charger.  60 watts is probably overkill 
for most of our applications except Marlon's.  :-)

You could even wire the four of them series/parallel to get 24V for a 
long CAT5 run.

This stuff has really come down in price the past few months thanks 
to the Northern/Home Depot/Harbor Freight Chinese importers.

This IS a deal maker for those remote repeater sites some of us have 
been contemplating.  Yes Marlon, you CAN solar power a site for less 
than $500.00 if you're willing to do some creative work.  Gotta love it.


At 08:43 AM 8/26/2009, you wrote:

Home depot's site.  go figure.  $329 a Solar Back Up Kit (as they call
it.)  60 Watts.  $329

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051langId=-1catalogId=10053productId=100658288


Mike wrote:
  It depends on how high you push it up.  I *HAVE* had it all the way
  up with a 12 panel, low wind condition, one person on the ground and
  the other sitting on the gable end of a roof for testing.  The top
  two sections get a little wispy (pun intended) for big panels, or to
  leave up.  I regularly put it 20' - 26' and leave it with a panel attached.
 
  They sell a drive-on mount with a socket for holding it.  I just
  mounted mine through the trailer side with one of those nice alloy
  dish mounts so I can rotate it to about 45 degrees for
  transport.  When I set it up, I rotate upright, put the end into a
  socket I made from one of those floor PVC toilet bowl
  flanges.  Eyeball along a building or vertical surface in two planes
  and you get the whole thing somewhat vertical.  Above the mount, on
  the side of the trailer, I put two stainless eye bolts.  Once I get
  the mast vertical, I put a custom fitted piece of wood with an arc
  cut in the end to fit the pole, between the pole and trailer and lash
  it with a bungy cord.  Gives it a third attachment point along the
  trailer side; ground, middle, near the top.  It's raining pretty hard
  right now or I'd take a picture.
 
  I can set it up on Friday in about 20 minutes at the market.
 
 
  At 08:03 AM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
 
  Would the wonder pole handle a wind load of an NS2/Canopy?  What about a
  massive Arc MT combo?
 
  How do you mount the base?  Can this be made mobile/temporary?
 
  Josh Luthman
  Office: 937-552-2340
  Direct: 937-552-2343
  1100 Wayne St
  Suite 1337
  Troy, OH 45373
 
  When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
  improbable, must be the truth.
  --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
 
 
  On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 8:55 AM, ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org wrote:
 
 
  Were you speaking of the pneumatic mast in my pics, or of the 
 wonder pole?
 
  Mine is a Wil-burt  or Wilburt and they cost a bunch- like $5,000.00 new.
  But since the DTV rollout is complete, there should be surplus ENG trucks
  around with these masts.
  The TV stations started keeping their old trucks to use for testing. I
  actually had one given to me complete with pole and generator.
  I could not go get it and the station decided to keep it for DTV testing.
  Call around to your local stations and ask about surplus ENG trucks.
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
  Behalf Of Mike
  Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:40 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
  I'd love to add that to my trailer.  What is the make?
 
 
 
  At 11:36 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
 
  That sounds like great public service and a way to get recognized too!
 
  If you want to see something that really gets attention, have 
 a look at my
  site survey/portable AP rig.
  http://ralphfowler.com
  I have been reluctant to put signs on it though, for obvious reasons.
  (people already think I am toting a rocket launcher) LOL
   Ralph
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
  Behalf Of Mike
  Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:57 PM
  To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
  This particular setup is mounted to a 4 x 6 x 4 Wells Cargo enclosed
  trailer.  I painted it bright white and added my logo and on one side
  Solar Powered Wireless.  I park it at events and provide free
  WiFi.  I park it downtown every Friday for Farmers Market and the
  name recognition has been outstanding.
 
  I have a 40 foot Wonder Pole mounted to the side I swing into
  position and hoist a Deliberant panel up.  Inside the trailer I have
  a Deliberant AP2i doing DHCP and giving out access.  I don't push the
  pole up farther than 15 or 20 feet for events, but will run it all
  the way up for site surveys on occasion.
 
  Both radios pull less than an Amp total and the system supplies

Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Joe Laura
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CIADLG?ie=UTF8tag=remyfu-20linkCode=as2camp=1789creative=390957creativeASIN=B000CIADLG
- Original Message - 
From: Curtis Maurand cmaur...@xyonet.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:43 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site



 Home depot's site.  go figure.  $329 a Solar Back Up Kit (as they call
 it.)  60 Watts.  $329


http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051langId=-1catalogId=10053productId=100658288






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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Curtis Maurand

Home depot's site.  go figure.  $329 a Solar Back Up Kit (as they call 
it.)  60 Watts.  $329

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051langId=-1catalogId=10053productId=100658288


Mike wrote:
 It depends on how high you push it up.  I *HAVE* had it all the way 
 up with a 12 panel, low wind condition, one person on the ground and 
 the other sitting on the gable end of a roof for testing.  The top 
 two sections get a little wispy (pun intended) for big panels, or to 
 leave up.  I regularly put it 20' - 26' and leave it with a panel attached.

 They sell a drive-on mount with a socket for holding it.  I just 
 mounted mine through the trailer side with one of those nice alloy 
 dish mounts so I can rotate it to about 45 degrees for 
 transport.  When I set it up, I rotate upright, put the end into a 
 socket I made from one of those floor PVC toilet bowl 
 flanges.  Eyeball along a building or vertical surface in two planes 
 and you get the whole thing somewhat vertical.  Above the mount, on 
 the side of the trailer, I put two stainless eye bolts.  Once I get 
 the mast vertical, I put a custom fitted piece of wood with an arc 
 cut in the end to fit the pole, between the pole and trailer and lash 
 it with a bungy cord.  Gives it a third attachment point along the 
 trailer side; ground, middle, near the top.  It's raining pretty hard 
 right now or I'd take a picture.

 I can set it up on Friday in about 20 minutes at the market.


 At 08:03 AM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
   
 Would the wonder pole handle a wind load of an NS2/Canopy?  What about a
 massive Arc MT combo?

 How do you mount the base?  Can this be made mobile/temporary?

 Josh Luthman
 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
 improbable, must be the truth.
 --- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle


 On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 8:55 AM, ralph ralphli...@bsrg.org wrote:

 
 Were you speaking of the pneumatic mast in my pics, or of the wonder pole?

 Mine is a Wil-burt  or Wilburt and they cost a bunch- like $5,000.00 new.
 But since the DTV rollout is complete, there should be surplus ENG trucks
 around with these masts.
 The TV stations started keeping their old trucks to use for testing. I
 actually had one given to me complete with pole and generator.
 I could not go get it and the station decided to keep it for DTV testing.
 Call around to your local stations and ask about surplus ENG trucks.



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:40 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 I'd love to add that to my trailer.  What is the make?



 At 11:36 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
   
 That sounds like great public service and a way to get recognized too!

 If you want to see something that really gets attention, have a look at my
 site survey/portable AP rig.
 http://ralphfowler.com
 I have been reluctant to put signs on it though, for obvious reasons.
 (people already think I am toting a rocket launcher) LOL
  Ralph

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:57 PM
 To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 This particular setup is mounted to a 4 x 6 x 4 Wells Cargo enclosed
 trailer.  I painted it bright white and added my logo and on one side
 Solar Powered Wireless.  I park it at events and provide free
 WiFi.  I park it downtown every Friday for Farmers Market and the
 name recognition has been outstanding.

 I have a 40 foot Wonder Pole mounted to the side I swing into
 position and hoist a Deliberant panel up.  Inside the trailer I have
 a Deliberant AP2i doing DHCP and giving out access.  I don't push the
 pole up farther than 15 or 20 feet for events, but will run it all
 the way up for site surveys on occasion.

 Both radios pull less than an Amp total and the system supplies 2.5
 Amp in good sun.  The 800 Amp hour battery will run it for 800 hours?

 Mike

 At 08:04 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
 
 Interesting. What radios are you powering this with?

 Scottie

 -- Original Message --
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Date:  Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:50:14 -0500

   
 I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.

 Mike

 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
 
 Hi All,

 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I

Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Mark McElvy
No negative comments, they seem to be fine.

Mark McElvy
AccuBak Data Systems, Inc.
573.729.9200 - Office



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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread os10rules
I second the Morningstar

On Aug 26, 2009, at 8:32 AM, Mark McElvy wrote:

 The solar list that I participate in recommend not using the charge
 controller included in that kit as it is junk. They always recommend
 MorningStar for like $60.00.

 Mark

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of ralph
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:38 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 I was going to ask about this.
 Harbor freight has a set of 3 on sale for 199 with controller and a  
 few
 other goodies.
 I keep meaning to go get some before they go off sale again (I may be
 too
 late already)


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 2:30 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 I was shocked to find the 15W panels at Northern for $79.00.  I
 ordered some and they work great.  You need a charge controller,
 $45.00 to keep the batteries from over charging.  You have to get
 creative with uni-strut and angle iron to make your own mount, or buy
 them.  Batteries are the biggest expense.  So to answer your question,
 yes.


 At 11:29 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar
 system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon




 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Christopher Erickson
Specifically, the Morningstar MPPT charge controllers.

-Christopher Erickson


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 5:30 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 I second the Morningstar
 
 On Aug 26, 2009, at 8:32 AM, Mark McElvy wrote:
 
  The solar list that I participate in recommend not using the charge
  controller included in that kit as it is junk. They always recommend
  MorningStar for like $60.00.
 
  Mark
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
  On
  Behalf Of ralph
  Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:38 PM
  To: 'WISPA General List'
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
  I was going to ask about this.
  Harbor freight has a set of 3 on sale for 199 with controller and a  
  few
  other goodies.
  I keep meaning to go get some before they go off sale again (I may be
  too
  late already)
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
  On
  Behalf Of Mike
  Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 2:30 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
  I was shocked to find the 15W panels at Northern for $79.00.  I
  ordered some and they work great.  You need a charge controller,
  $45.00 to keep the batteries from over charging.  You have to get
  creative with uni-strut and angle iron to make your own mount, or buy
  them.  Batteries are the biggest expense.  So to answer your question,
  yes.
 
 
  At 11:29 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
  Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar
  system
  good enough for our radios these days?
 
  Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
  marlon
 
 
 
 
  
  
  
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Chuck Hogg
We have 2 solar sites.  2 problems that occur, which if power is nearby
makes it worth it to run power to them.  1st problem.  Battery
Maintenance.  2nd Problem. Low sun in the winter months.  We have solar
and wind to make up for the solar loss in the winter, however it seems
we have to go and charge them by letting the generator run a couple of
hours.  Not that big a deal when you have installs in the area and can
just stop by and charge them up some more.  We monitor them so that we
know when there is an impending power issue coming up. 

One site has 1 MikroTik 2.4 AP, 1 MikroTik 5GHz AP, 2 MikroTik
Backhauls, a RB/493 at the base, and a 900 Trango AP and it requires
little maintenance.

Regards,
Chuck Hogg
Shelby Broadband
502-722-9292
ch...@shelbybb.com
http://www.shelbybb.com


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 8:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

I second the Morningstar

On Aug 26, 2009, at 8:32 AM, Mark McElvy wrote:

 The solar list that I participate in recommend not using the charge
 controller included in that kit as it is junk. They always recommend
 MorningStar for like $60.00.

 Mark

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of ralph
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:38 PM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 I was going to ask about this.
 Harbor freight has a set of 3 on sale for 199 with controller and a  
 few
 other goodies.
 I keep meaning to go get some before they go off sale again (I may be
 too
 late already)


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
 On
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 2:30 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 I was shocked to find the 15W panels at Northern for $79.00.  I
 ordered some and they work great.  You need a charge controller,
 $45.00 to keep the batteries from over charging.  You have to get
 creative with uni-strut and angle iron to make your own mount, or buy
 them.  Batteries are the biggest expense.  So to answer your question,
 yes.


 At 11:29 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar
 system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon






 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread jp
http://www.altestore.com/store/ is where I get my solar panels. That 
panel looks like the 48v one they sell for a similar price.

Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of 
panel. 2 60's might work for a small 1 MT site. Then you're looking at 
closer to $1k for 120w of panel, charge controller, and 8d sized 
deep cycle battery.

We have 3 solar powered sites. The most recent one needs 200w of solar 
to power 1 rb433ah with 3 cards, 1 Alvarion vl900 AU. We have about 
400AH of battery (12v) and a morningstar controller.

15w is a toy solar panel or a battery charger, not a something to power 
a site.

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 07:05:51PM -0700, John Thomas wrote:
 It looks like there is a sweet spot at 60 watts
 
 http://www.solarhome.org/51-60wattsolarpanels.aspx
 
 About $250 each.
 
 John
 
 Mike wrote:
  I was shocked to find the 15W panels at Northern for $79.00.  I 
  ordered some and they work great.  You need a charge controller, 
  $45.00 to keep the batteries from over charging.  You have to get 
  creative with uni-strut and angle iron to make your own mount, or buy 
  them.  Batteries are the biggest expense.  So to answer your question, yes.
 
 
  At 11:29 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:

  Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar system
  good enough for our radios these days?
 
  Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
  marlon
  
 
 
 
 
  
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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/*
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Josh Luthman
24 hours of sun in 33 days is enough to run 12 watts.  That's just
amazing when you think about it!

On 8/27/09, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote:
 I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
 pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
 I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
 I have 48W left over to charge the battery.

 Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
 still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
 charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
 run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
 hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
 battery will stay charged.

 No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
 see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
 can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
 monitor battery condition it will work just fine.

 At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
panel.




 
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-- 
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Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
improbable, must be the truth.
--- Sir Arthur Conan Doyle



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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread os10rules
Don't forget that there is some inefficiency in the battery and some  
self discharge. So you don't get a watt out for every watt in. Also  
don't forget that if you're doing this on a budget you're probably  
using batteries which are made to deep cycle often so they won't last  
long if being discharged often below the 80% full charge level (you  
shouldn't plan on using more than 20% of the battery's capability  
regularly). Your no sun calculation of 33.3 days run time might be  
accurate, but you should probably figure 33.3 * .2 = 6.66 days is the  
max amount of no sun time you'd consider your system is built for,  
knowing in an emergency you could run longer but by taking a toll on  
your batteries. 6.66 days of no sun is still a lot and wouldn't happen  
often so you're probably still OK. It's always worth it to over- 
engineer a solar system on both the panels and the batteries.

Also some solar panel manufacturers are a bit optimistic in their  
wattage rating. Also solar panels act like constant current generators  
putting out a more or less constant current over a range of voltage. A  
panel that puts out 2 amps will give 2 amps into a battery that's 11.5  
volts or 14 volts (if the panel's Voc is high enough to still deliver  
it's 2 amps into a 14 volt battery) and though technically it's more  
wattage at 14 volts I believe that as far as the batteries are  
concerned the 2 amps is the number that matters, not that wattage.  
It's better to figure by amps and not watts, and to use actual  
measured amperage and not the manufacturers numbers (short circuit  
current or max working current).

Greg
On Aug 26, 2009, at 11:35 PM, Mike wrote:

 I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
 pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
 I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
 I have 48W left over to charge the battery.

 Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
 still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
 charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
 run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
 hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
 battery will stay charged.

 No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
 see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
 can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
 monitor battery condition it will work just fine.

 At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
 Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
 panel.




 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread os10rules
I don't think his 24 hours of sun number meant in one 24 hour period.  
I think he meant 24 hours of sun cumulative over 33 days. No?

Greg

On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:01 AM, Christopher Erickson wrote:

 First, the Sun never shines 24 hours in a day unless you are above
 the Arctic circle.  And even then, that only happens for a few days
 of the year.

 Second, there isn't much charging going on when the Sun is near the
 horizon, which is most of the time when in Northern latitudes.

 For example, an 80 watt panel will NEVER output 80 watts in Anchorage,
 Alaska because even at solar noon in the summer, the Sun is only
 around 60 degrees up in the sky.  And below about 25 degrees, there
 isn't any charging going on at all.

 So anyway think of an amperage sine wave that builds up in the  
 morning,
 peaks at solar noon and then diminishes in the afternoon.

 The math is more complicated than it first appears.

 My advice is always free and worth every penny!

 -Christopher Erickson
 Network Design Engineer
 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
 Anchorage, AK 99508



 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
 boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:06 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
 pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
 I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
 I have 48W left over to charge the battery.

 Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
 still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
 charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
 run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
 hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
 battery will stay charged.

 No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
 see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
 can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
 monitor battery condition it will work just fine.

 At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
 Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
 panel.




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Matt Larsen - Lists
Here is the graph straight from the charge monitor for our solar panels, 
to give you an idea what the charging pattern looks like.   This is for 
a pair of 60w panels.

http://www.thelar.com/gallery2/v/Wireless/Hogback/graph_image1.png.html

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com

Christopher Erickson wrote:
 First, the Sun never shines 24 hours in a day unless you are above
 the Arctic circle.  And even then, that only happens for a few days
 of the year.

 Second, there isn't much charging going on when the Sun is near the
 horizon, which is most of the time when in Northern latitudes.

 For example, an 80 watt panel will NEVER output 80 watts in Anchorage,
 Alaska because even at solar noon in the summer, the Sun is only
 around 60 degrees up in the sky.  And below about 25 degrees, there
 isn't any charging going on at all.

 So anyway think of an amperage sine wave that builds up in the morning,
 peaks at solar noon and then diminishes in the afternoon.

 The math is more complicated than it first appears.

 My advice is always free and worth every penny!

 -Christopher Erickson
 Network Design Engineer
 5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
 Anchorage, AK 99508



   
 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of Mike
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:06 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is 
 pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If 
 I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal, 
 I have 48W left over to charge the battery.

 Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I 
 still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to 
 charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will 
 run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24 
 hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the 
 battery will stay charged.

 No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER 
 see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you 
 can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you 
 monitor battery condition it will work just fine.

 At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
 
 Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
 panel.
   


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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread Christopher Erickson
Could be but that isn't right either.

24 hours of daylight is not the same as 24 hours of full current charging.

The Sun rises and the Sun sets.

Latitude and seasons aside, an 80 watt panel is only going to give about
450 watt-hours a day at absolute best.

-Christopher Erickson


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on
 Behalf Of os10ru...@gmail.com
 Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 10:43 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
 I don't think his 24 hours of sun number meant in one 24 hour period.  
 I think he meant 24 hours of sun cumulative over 33 days. No?
 
 Greg
 
 On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:01 AM, Christopher Erickson wrote:
 
  First, the Sun never shines 24 hours in a day unless you are above
  the Arctic circle.  And even then, that only happens for a few days
  of the year.
 
  Second, there isn't much charging going on when the Sun is near the
  horizon, which is most of the time when in Northern latitudes.
 
  For example, an 80 watt panel will NEVER output 80 watts in Anchorage,
  Alaska because even at solar noon in the summer, the Sun is only
  around 60 degrees up in the sky.  And below about 25 degrees, there
  isn't any charging going on at all.
 
  So anyway think of an amperage sine wave that builds up in the  
  morning,
  peaks at solar noon and then diminishes in the afternoon.
 
  The math is more complicated than it first appears.
 
  My advice is always free and worth every penny!
 
  -Christopher Erickson
  Network Design Engineer
  5432 E. Northern Lights Blvd., Suite 529
  Anchorage, AK 99508
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless- 
  boun...@wispa.org]on
  Behalf Of Mike
  Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2009 9:06 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
  I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
  pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
  I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
  I have 48W left over to charge the battery.
 
  Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
  still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
  charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
  run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
  hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
  battery will stay charged.
 
  No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
  see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
  can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
  monitor battery condition it will work just fine.
 
  At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
  Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
  panel.
 
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-26 Thread os10rules
Am I missing something?

24 (hours of sun) * 60 watts  = 1,440 watt hours of solar power  
produced.

12 (watts) * 24 (hours in a day) * 33 (days) = 9504 (watt hours) not  
1,440 of power consumed.

Working backwards starting with 1,440 watt hours to burn:

1,440 watt hours / 12 (watts) * 24 (hours in day) = 5 days of no sun  
run time till your batteries are totally flat.

If you plan on only discharging your batteries 20% or in other words  
only using 20% of your solar power produced based on 24 hours of sun  
(1,440 watt hours) then that's 288 watt hours to burn, which is one  
day's run time.


Let's look at it another way. You shouldn't be thinking that you're  
getting more than 5 hours of good sun a day with fixed facing solar  
panels (no tracking the sun throughout the day) and even that number  
is probably a little too generous but let's use it. So that's 5  
(hours) * 60 (watts) giving 300 watt hours produced each day. 12  
(watts) times 24 hours is 288 watt hours. That's only leaving you 12  
watt hours up your sleeve and that's assuming perfect efficiency.

Greg

On Aug 26, 2009, at 11:54 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

 24 hours of sun in 33 days is enough to run 12 watts.  That's just
 amazing when you think about it!

 On 8/27/09, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote:
 I'm not sure I buy into your math.  If I have a repeater site that is
 pulling 1A @ 12V, then it is consuming something like 12W, right?  If
 I have 60W of solar panel (2 toys) then when conditions are optimal,
 I have 48W left over to charge the battery.

 Lets say I am REALLY north, and the panels are only producing 45W.  I
 still am consuming 12W with the radios, and have 33W left over to
 charge the battery.  If I have an 800AH battery 24 Hours of sun will
 run the radios AND fully charge the battery.  If the sun shines 24
 hours out of 33.3 days, I will stay ahead of the curve and the
 battery will stay charged.

 No sun for 33.3 days and my 800AH battery will finally die.  I NEVER
 see those conditions here in the midwest.  I'll still maintain you
 can do a repeater site for $500 in solar power costs and if you
 monitor battery condition it will work just fine.

 At 09:54 PM 8/26/2009, you wrote:
 Here in the north, I wouldn't bother with anything less than 100w of
 panel.




 
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 -- 
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 Office: 937-552-2340
 Direct: 937-552-2343
 1100 Wayne St
 Suite 1337
 Troy, OH 45373

 When you have eliminated the impossible, that which remains, however
 improbable, must be the truth.
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Tom Sharples
For a complete system, these guys are the best IMO:

http://www.sunwize.com/

Robert Damrau
Reno, Nevada; Tel: 775-969-3131

What you need should be around $2K assembled.

You can build your own from scratch for maybe $1200,  but if e.g the solar 
cell or charger goes bad, it's all on you.

Tom S.

- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Cc: Principal WISPA Member List w...@wispa.org; 
isp-wirel...@isp-wireless.com
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 9:09 PM
Subject: [WISPA] solar site


 Hi All,

 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot 
 of
 help.

 I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
 the costs I've seen tossed about.

 Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
 needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill 
 that's
 within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

 I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
 site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less 
 than
 a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

 We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
 clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy or
 cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind 
 generation.
 I think.

 So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors 
 welcome!)
 and anything else I'm missing.

 Thanks all!
 marlon



 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Greg Ihnen
Check out Sunwize http://sunwize.com/. They're one of the places I've 
purchased from. They can engineer the system for you, sell you 
everything you need even the wire and junction boxes, and their prices 
are good. I have no financial interest in recommending them.

Greg

On 8/24/09 11:39 PM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 Hi All,

 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot of
 help.

 I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
 the costs I've seen tossed about.

 Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
 needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill that's
 within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

 I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
 site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less than
 a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

 We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
 clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy or
 cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind generation.
 I think.

 So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors welcome!)
 and anything else I'm missing.

 Thanks all!
 marlon



 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread eje
Tyconpower is one alternative. It's a product by Scott Parsons (founder of 
Pacific Wireless). Scott is on the list and might chime up.  

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: Scott Carullo sc...@brevardwireless.com

Date: Tue, 25 Aug 2009 00:55:00 
To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site



When you are done compiling your list share the final back out please.  

Scott Carullo
Brevard Wireless
321-205-1100 x102

 Original Message 
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:10 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] solar site
 
 Hi All,
 
 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot 
of 
 help.
 
 I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to 

 the costs I've seen tossed about.
 
 Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment 
 needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill 
that's 
 within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.
 
 I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this 

 site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less 
than 
 a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).
 
 We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low 
 clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy 
or 
 cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind 
generation. 
 I think.
 
 So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors 
welcome!) 
 and anything else I'm missing.
 
 Thanks all!
 marlon
 
 
 
 


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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Mike
I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00 
charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built 
my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The 
battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might 
not be the club way to do it, but it works.

Mike

At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less than
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

- Original Message - 
From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hi Marlon,

 Solar isn't that hard we just need to look at a details to figure out what 
 is required and move on from there
 here are details to figure out about solar to make sure it works right

 1.  figure out how many watt-hours a day he will need for MT radio. 
 Average and maximum watt-hours

I have a site with 1 starOS, 3 MT with 4 radios (total), 2 alvarion vl, 1 
trango 5830, 1 SB ap, Cisco 16 port managed switch and an Airaya backhaul. 
According to the digital logger at the site I'm pulling a total of about 1.8 
amps.


 2. what voltage he needs for his radios

12


 3.  latitude of the site

Zip is 99159


 4. Average low temperature (how cold does it get)

I've seen -30.  -10 is common.


 5. Does the radio site have an unobstructed view of the Sun's path through 
 the sky?

Oh yeah.


 6. Other stuff, like physical security,

None


 7. back up battery capacity (how many days operation without charging (for 
 fog or cloudy days, or low sun availability - winter.) Your message stated 
 that there were few of those days.

If we could go a couple of days that should be just fine for starters.  This 
will only service 5 or so households.


 8. And depending on difficulty of reaching the site, what PMI interval 
 would be desired. (affects component and battery choices.)

We'll likely run optima deep cycle batteries.  They've worked great for all 
of the trenchers, dozers, backhoes, boats and other stuff we have around the 
farm.


 9. And what kind of OOB management and remote reset capabilities are 
 desired. (cellular access, for example)

Nothing needed.  The locals can drive up the hill and reset things if need 
be.  Luckily that's VERY rare with the MT gear anyway.


 I've used Talley in the past for solar in the past.  You can give them the 
 details and they'll spec it, quote it, and build it it for you
 Albert Esquer [aesq...@talleycom.com] is the gentleman I've worked with 
 while at Invensys

Thanks,
marlon


 Paul Rice


 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Steve Barnes
Let me get this right, You said;
I have a site with 1 starOS, 3 MT with 4 radios (total), 2 alvarion vl, 1 
trango 5830, 1 SB ap, Cisco 16 port managed switch and an Airaya backhaul. 
According to the digital logger at the site I'm pulling a total of about 1.8 
amps.

Then;
This will only service 5 or so households.

Dude there is no Profit in that tower. LOL

Steve Barnes
Manager
PCS-WIN
RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service

Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of 
trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, ambition 
inspired, and success achieved.
- Helen Keller


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


- Original Message - 
From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hi Marlon,

 Solar isn't that hard we just need to look at a details to figure out what 
 is required and move on from there
 here are details to figure out about solar to make sure it works right

 1.  figure out how many watt-hours a day he will need for MT radio. 
 Average and maximum watt-hours

I have a site with 1 starOS, 3 MT with 4 radios (total), 2 alvarion vl, 1 
trango 5830, 1 SB ap, Cisco 16 port managed switch and an Airaya backhaul. 
According to the digital logger at the site I'm pulling a total of about 1.8 
amps.


 2. what voltage he needs for his radios

12


 3.  latitude of the site

Zip is 99159


 4. Average low temperature (how cold does it get)

I've seen -30.  -10 is common.


 5. Does the radio site have an unobstructed view of the Sun's path through 
 the sky?

Oh yeah.


 6. Other stuff, like physical security,

None


 7. back up battery capacity (how many days operation without charging (for 
 fog or cloudy days, or low sun availability - winter.) Your message stated 
 that there were few of those days.

If we could go a couple of days that should be just fine for starters.  This 
will only service 5 or so households.


 8. And depending on difficulty of reaching the site, what PMI interval 
 would be desired. (affects component and battery choices.)

We'll likely run optima deep cycle batteries.  They've worked great for all 
of the trenchers, dozers, backhoes, boats and other stuff we have around the 
farm.


 9. And what kind of OOB management and remote reset capabilities are 
 desired. (cellular access, for example)

Nothing needed.  The locals can drive up the hill and reset things if need 
be.  Luckily that's VERY rare with the MT gear anyway.


 I've used Talley in the past for solar in the past.  You can give them the 
 details and they'll spec it, quote it, and build it it for you
 Albert Esquer [aesq...@talleycom.com] is the gentleman I've worked with 
 while at Invensys

Thanks,
marlon


 Paul Rice


 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Thanks for all of the advice Scott!

Do I understand correctly that you can NOT sell this to me because you 
specialize in even smaller systems?

thanks again,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Scott Parsons sc...@e-zy.net
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Cc: 'Principal WISPA Member List' w...@wispa.org; 
isp-wirel...@isp-wireless.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 7:44 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hi Marlon, Long time...

 Voltage 12V
 Power Consumption: MT 4 watts, 2 Radio cards 8 watts
 Total= 12 watts @ 12V

 We have a handy calculator at
 http://tyconpower.com/learning_center/learning_center.htm

 I've attached the results. I used 4 hours of sun for your location based 
 on
 another post I saw.
 I used 24 hours extra battery capacity. You may want to increase or 
 decrease
 this depending on the reliability of the sun in your area.

 You need 73 watts minimum solar panel capacity
 You need at least 88 Ah in battery capacity

 This is bigger than the stuff we offer right now but here's a starting 
 list:

 1. 85W solar panel - You should be able to get for about $350 or less

 2. 12V 8A Solar Controller - You should be able to get for $60 or less

 3. 100Ah battery - You don't need a deep discharge type because the solar
 controller will disconnect the load when the battery voltage reaches 11.1V
 which protects the battery from over discharge. You just need a type that
 has good performance in cold weather. You should be able to pick up a
 battery for less than $200

 4. You'll need a mount for the solar panels try here:
 http://power-fab.com/products.htm They make all kinds of mounts. I'm not
 sure the cost.

 5. You'll need a vented outdoor enclosure if you are putting the battery
 inside. I've seen people put the battery in one of those plastic battery
 cases you see in small power boats and then the enclosure requirements for
 the controller and electronics becomes easy. We have suitable enclosures 
 for
 $70 14x10x5 Polycarbonate outdoor enclosure

 6. Wiring is quite simple.

 Any decent vendor will warranty the panels for 20-25 years and the solar
 controller for 1 year.

 Regards,
 Scott


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
 Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 10:10 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Cc: Principal WISPA Member List; isp-wirel...@isp-wireless.com
 Subject: [WISPA] solar site

 Hi All,

 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot 
 of

 help.

 I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
 the costs I've seen tossed about.

 Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
 needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill 
 that's
 within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

 I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
 site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less 
 than

 a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

 We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
 clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy or
 cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind 
 generation.
 I think.

 So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors 
 welcome!)
 and anything else I'm missing.

 Thanks all!
 marlon



 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar system 
good enough for our radios these days?

Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.

 Mike

 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot 
of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill 
that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less 
than
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind 
generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors 
welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Paul Rice
Hey Marlon

 is that 1.8 amps at 120VAC or 1.8 amps at 12VDC?

volts x amps = watts
the precise nominal and max watts that is the real factor determining the 
size of the power system needed
the difference is 25 watts or 250 watts :)
CostCo has a solar panel + charger + frame that would work for 25 watts, I 
think

500 is good price, since your able to access it easily, it shouldn't be much 
of risk.

--
From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:29 AM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.

 Mike

 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot
of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less
than
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy 
or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
There is when the customer is buying all of the equipment  I can afford 
to maintain it.

Like it or not, that's a LOT of what my areas is made up of.  Little pockets 
of customers here and there.  It's taken us roughly 20 tower sites to 
service a little over 600 subs!  And 3 of the sites account for nearly half 
of that number.

Gotta love rural areas.  USF is making more and more sense to me all of the 
time :-).  Wish I could get it.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Let me get this right, You said;
I have a site with 1 starOS, 3 MT with 4 radios (total), 2 alvarion vl, 1
trango 5830, 1 SB ap, Cisco 16 port managed switch and an Airaya backhaul.
According to the digital logger at the site I'm pulling a total of about 
1.8
amps.

 Then;
This will only service 5 or so households.

 Dude there is no Profit in that tower. LOL

 Steve Barnes
 Manager
 PCS-WIN
 RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service

 Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience 
 of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, 
 ambition inspired, and success achieved.
 - Helen Keller


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 - Original Message - 
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 To: wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 9:55 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hi Marlon,

 Solar isn't that hard we just need to look at a details to figure out 
 what
 is required and move on from there
 here are details to figure out about solar to make sure it works right

 1.  figure out how many watt-hours a day he will need for MT radio.
 Average and maximum watt-hours

 I have a site with 1 starOS, 3 MT with 4 radios (total), 2 alvarion vl, 1
 trango 5830, 1 SB ap, Cisco 16 port managed switch and an Airaya backhaul.
 According to the digital logger at the site I'm pulling a total of about 
 1.8
 amps.


 2. what voltage he needs for his radios

 12


 3.  latitude of the site

 Zip is 99159


 4. Average low temperature (how cold does it get)

 I've seen -30.  -10 is common.


 5. Does the radio site have an unobstructed view of the Sun's path 
 through
 the sky?

 Oh yeah.


 6. Other stuff, like physical security,

 None


 7. back up battery capacity (how many days operation without charging 
 (for
 fog or cloudy days, or low sun availability - winter.) Your message 
 stated
 that there were few of those days.

 If we could go a couple of days that should be just fine for starters. 
 This
 will only service 5 or so households.


 8. And depending on difficulty of reaching the site, what PMI interval
 would be desired. (affects component and battery choices.)

 We'll likely run optima deep cycle batteries.  They've worked great for 
 all
 of the trenchers, dozers, backhoes, boats and other stuff we have around 
 the
 farm.


 9. And what kind of OOB management and remote reset capabilities are
 desired. (cellular access, for example)

 Nothing needed.  The locals can drive up the hill and reset things if need
 be.  Luckily that's VERY rare with the MT gear anyway.


 I've used Talley in the past for solar in the past.  You can give them 
 the
 details and they'll spec it, quote it, and build it it for you
 Albert Esquer [aesq...@talleycom.com] is the gentleman I've worked with
 while at Invensys

 Thanks,
 marlon


 Paul Rice


 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Oops, I missed part of what you said.

I was trying to show how little power the gear actually uses.  That's one of 
my main sites.

The NEW one will only have 5 or so subs.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Steve Barnes st...@pcswin.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Let me get this right, You said;
I have a site with 1 starOS, 3 MT with 4 radios (total), 2 alvarion vl, 1
trango 5830, 1 SB ap, Cisco 16 port managed switch and an Airaya backhaul.
According to the digital logger at the site I'm pulling a total of about 
1.8
amps.

 Then;
This will only service 5 or so households.

 Dude there is no Profit in that tower. LOL

 Steve Barnes
 Manager
 PCS-WIN
 RC-WiFi Wireless Internet Service

 Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience 
 of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, vision cleared, 
 ambition inspired, and success achieved.
 - Helen Keller


 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On 
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 - Original Message - 
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 To: wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 9:55 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hi Marlon,

 Solar isn't that hard we just need to look at a details to figure out 
 what
 is required and move on from there
 here are details to figure out about solar to make sure it works right

 1.  figure out how many watt-hours a day he will need for MT radio.
 Average and maximum watt-hours

 I have a site with 1 starOS, 3 MT with 4 radios (total), 2 alvarion vl, 1
 trango 5830, 1 SB ap, Cisco 16 port managed switch and an Airaya backhaul.
 According to the digital logger at the site I'm pulling a total of about 
 1.8
 amps.


 2. what voltage he needs for his radios

 12


 3.  latitude of the site

 Zip is 99159


 4. Average low temperature (how cold does it get)

 I've seen -30.  -10 is common.


 5. Does the radio site have an unobstructed view of the Sun's path 
 through
 the sky?

 Oh yeah.


 6. Other stuff, like physical security,

 None


 7. back up battery capacity (how many days operation without charging 
 (for
 fog or cloudy days, or low sun availability - winter.) Your message 
 stated
 that there were few of those days.

 If we could go a couple of days that should be just fine for starters. 
 This
 will only service 5 or so households.


 8. And depending on difficulty of reaching the site, what PMI interval
 would be desired. (affects component and battery choices.)

 We'll likely run optima deep cycle batteries.  They've worked great for 
 all
 of the trenchers, dozers, backhoes, boats and other stuff we have around 
 the
 farm.


 9. And what kind of OOB management and remote reset capabilities are
 desired. (cellular access, for example)

 Nothing needed.  The locals can drive up the hill and reset things if need
 be.  Luckily that's VERY rare with the MT gear anyway.


 I've used Talley in the past for solar in the past.  You can give them 
 the
 details and they'll spec it, quote it, and build it it for you
 Albert Esquer [aesq...@talleycom.com] is the gentleman I've worked with
 while at Invensys

 Thanks,
 marlon


 Paul Rice


 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread AJ
Note to sell -

NEVER EVER use radiator clamps to hold steel L beam brackets to a Trylon
steel tower leg...

Microburst winds snapped the brackets right off the tower, shattering the
panel...

Hard lesson learned :(

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Marlon K. Schafer 
o...@odessaoffice.comwrote:

 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


  I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
  charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
  my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
  battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
  not be the club way to do it, but it works.
 
  Mike
 
  At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
 Hi All,
 
 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot
 of
 help.
 
 I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
 the costs I've seen tossed about.
 
 Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
 needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
 that's
 within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.
 
 I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
 site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less
 than
 a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).
 
 We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
 clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy
 or
 cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
 generation.
 I think.
 
 So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
 welcome!)
 and anything else I'm missing.
 
 Thanks all!
 marlon
 
 
 

 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/

 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Jerry Richardson
Uh oh.

So what do you use? Regular U bolt clamps?

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf 
Of AJ
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:45 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

Note to sell -

NEVER EVER use radiator clamps to hold steel L beam brackets to a Trylon
steel tower leg...

Microburst winds snapped the brackets right off the tower, shattering the
panel...

Hard lesson learned :(

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Marlon K. Schafer 
o...@odessaoffice.comwrote:

 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


  I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
  charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
  my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
  battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
  not be the club way to do it, but it works.
 
  Mike
 
  At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
 Hi All,
 
 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot
 of
 help.
 
 I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
 the costs I've seen tossed about.
 
 Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
 needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
 that's
 within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.
 
 I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
 site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less
 than
 a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).
 
 We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
 clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy
 or
 cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
 generation.
 I think.
 
 So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
 welcome!)
 and anything else I'm missing.
 
 Thanks all!
 marlon
 
 
 

 
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 http://signup.wispa.org/

 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread AJ
You engineer a fold down bracket with sheer pins for the designed hinge
point but grade 8 hardware for most anything else.

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:55 AM, Jerry Richardson jrichard...@aircloud.com
 wrote:

 Uh oh.

 So what do you use? Regular U bolt clamps?

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of AJ
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:45 AM
 To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Note to sell -

 NEVER EVER use radiator clamps to hold steel L beam brackets to a Trylon
 steel tower leg...

 Microburst winds snapped the brackets right off the tower, shattering the
 panel...

 Hard lesson learned :(

 On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 10:29 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 wrote:

  Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar system
  good enough for our radios these days?
 
  Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
  marlon
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site
 
 
   I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
   charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
   my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
   battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
   not be the club way to do it, but it works.
  
   Mike
  
   At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
  Hi All,
  
  Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a
 lot
  of
  help.
  
  I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due
 to
  the costs I've seen tossed about.
  
  Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
  needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
  that's
  within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.
  
  I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
 this
  site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less
  than
  a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).
  
  We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
  clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy
  or
  cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
  generation.
  I think.
  
  So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
  welcome!)
  and anything else I'm missing.
  
  Thanks all!
  marlon
  
  
  
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
120

- Original Message - 
From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hey Marlon

 is that 1.8 amps at 120VAC or 1.8 amps at 12VDC?

 volts x amps = watts
 the precise nominal and max watts that is the real factor determining the
 size of the power system needed
 the difference is 25 watts or 250 watts :)
 CostCo has a solar panel + charger + frame that would work for 25 watts, I
 think

 500 is good price, since your able to access it easily, it shouldn't be 
 much
 of risk.

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:29 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.

 Mike

 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a 
lot
of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due 
to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for 
this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less
than
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy
or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Paul Rice
Yikes, that is daunting.

Is that the site your putting in, or your example site?

--
From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:04 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 120

 - Original Message - 
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:35 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hey Marlon

 is that 1.8 amps at 120VAC or 1.8 amps at 12VDC?

 volts x amps = watts
 the precise nominal and max watts that is the real factor determining the
 size of the power system needed
 the difference is 25 watts or 250 watts :)
 CostCo has a solar panel + charger + frame that would work for 25 watts, 
 I
 think

 500 is good price, since your able to access it easily, it shouldn't be
 much
 of risk.

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:29 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.

 Mike

 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a
lot
of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due
to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less
than
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy
or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Paul Rice
I'd recommend you use either a unmanaged or managed industrial DC powered 
switch 12-20 vdc
otherwise your going to need a LOT of solar panels (650 watts is what my 
calcs came up with)
In fact eliminate all 120 AC from your outdoor install for the best results 
to save money on smaller solar rigs.

Paul

--
From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:09 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Yikes, that is daunting.

 Is that the site your putting in, or your example site?

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:04 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 120

 - Original Message - 
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:35 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hey Marlon

 is that 1.8 amps at 120VAC or 1.8 amps at 12VDC?

 volts x amps = watts
 the precise nominal and max watts that is the real factor determining 
 the
 size of the power system needed
 the difference is 25 watts or 250 watts :)
 CostCo has a solar panel + charger + frame that would work for 25 watts,
 I
 think

 500 is good price, since your able to access it easily, it shouldn't be
 much
 of risk.

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:29 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar 
 system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.

 Mike

 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a
lot
of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due
to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have 
less
than
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or 
low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the 
foggy
or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Just an example of how little power we really need.

I guess I'm too used to those 500 horse power irrigation pumps we use.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Yikes, that is daunting.

 Is that the site your putting in, or your example site?

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:04 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 120

 - Original Message - 
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:35 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hey Marlon

 is that 1.8 amps at 120VAC or 1.8 amps at 12VDC?

 volts x amps = watts
 the precise nominal and max watts that is the real factor determining 
 the
 size of the power system needed
 the difference is 25 watts or 250 watts :)
 CostCo has a solar panel + charger + frame that would work for 25 watts,
 I
 think

 500 is good price, since your able to access it easily, it shouldn't be
 much
 of risk.

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:29 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar 
 system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.

 Mike

 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a
lot
of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due
to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have 
less
than
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or 
low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the 
foggy
or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Chuck Profito
Our solar site has 2 deep cycle marine batteries in series running
everything at 24 volts with no inverter.
It lasts more than a week, closer to two I think, running 2 star boards w/
two radios each. We don't have temp problems so we just put batteries and
injectors in a water heater stand.

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:33 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

Just an example of how little power we really need.

I guess I'm too used to those 500 horse power irrigation pumps we use.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Yikes, that is daunting.

 Is that the site your putting in, or your example site?

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:04 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 120

 - Original Message - 
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:35 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hey Marlon

 is that 1.8 amps at 120VAC or 1.8 amps at 12VDC?

 volts x amps = watts
 the precise nominal and max watts that is the real factor determining 
 the
 size of the power system needed
 the difference is 25 watts or 250 watts :)
 CostCo has a solar panel + charger + frame that would work for 25 watts,
 I
 think

 500 is good price, since your able to access it easily, it shouldn't be
 much
 of risk.

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:29 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar 
 system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.

 Mike

 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a
lot
of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due
to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have 
less
than
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or 
low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the 
foggy
or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon



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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Mike
I was shocked to find the 15W panels at Northern for $79.00.  I 
ordered some and they work great.  You need a charge controller, 
$45.00 to keep the batteries from over charging.  You have to get 
creative with uni-strut and angle iron to make your own mount, or buy 
them.  Batteries are the biggest expense.  So to answer your question, yes.


At 11:29 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar system
good enough for our radios these days?

Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
marlon





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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Mike Hammett
Indeed.  AC/DC conversions lose 20% each way.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:19 PM
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 I'd recommend you use either a unmanaged or managed industrial DC powered
 switch 12-20 vdc
 otherwise your going to need a LOT of solar panels (650 watts is what my
 calcs came up with)
 In fact eliminate all 120 AC from your outdoor install for the best 
 results
 to save money on smaller solar rigs.

 Paul

 --
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:09 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Yikes, that is daunting.

 Is that the site your putting in, or your example site?

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:04 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 120

 - Original Message - 
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:35 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hey Marlon

 is that 1.8 amps at 120VAC or 1.8 amps at 12VDC?

 volts x amps = watts
 the precise nominal and max watts that is the real factor determining
 the
 size of the power system needed
 the difference is 25 watts or 250 watts :)
 CostCo has a solar panel + charger + frame that would work for 25 
 watts,
 I
 think

 500 is good price, since your able to access it easily, it shouldn't be
 much
 of risk.

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:29 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar
 system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.

 Mike

 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a
lot
of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them 
due
to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial 
equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have
less
than
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or
low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the
foggy
or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Matt Larsen - Lists
Here is the setup that we recently did for a combination solar/wind 
powered site.   This is a StarOS site, X4000 board with four Mikrotik 
R52H cards in it.   One is 5ghz backhaul, two are for APs and the third 
card is a spare. 

2 60 watt solar panels
solar charge controller
air-x wind generator
four deep-cycle marine batteries (local auto parts store)
metal enclosure
24-48v converter (or 12 to 48, I forget which)
miscellaneous hardware for mounting/wiring

Total cost - $1850.00

If you were going solar only, it would be about $1250.

We also installed a device called a SuperRMS from Invictus Networks, 
which is awesome for alternative energy sites.   It has auto ping, 
remote power control and we are also able to graph the voltage of the 
panels, wind generator and batteries.   It was a bit pricey at $650 or 
so, but it is well worth it, as the sites we have on solar/wind are 
generally not very accessible.The SuperRMS tells us that the wind 
generator is generating almost no power and that the solar panels are 
generating plenty of power.   

Altogether, you are looking at about $2000 for a really good solar setup 
with full monitoring and remote control capabilities.   You can do it 
cheaper, but you will most likely burn up the extra money in battery 
replacements and extra trips to the site.  

Here are some pictures of the site:   
http://www.thelar.com/gallery2/v/Wireless/Hogback/

There are also some example graphs of the charge provided by the panels 
and the consumption of the radios throughout the day.   We could run 
about 100 people off this site and/or use it as a backhaul point to 
somewhere else.   I have four other sites similar to this on my network 
- one is wind/solar and the other three are wind only - and they have 
proven to be very reliable.   There are some occasional issues.   Wind 
generators will sometimes cook batteries, so you need to turn the 
voltage down a little bit.   Also, four batteries works a lot better 
than two batteries because if you have a cell go bad, you aren't 
completely out of luck.   Also, more batteries means less chance of them 
overcharging.Solar power is a lot more linear and good for providing 
baseline power.   Wind will charge batteries very quickly if there is 
wind.   Unfortunately, even though we have the best wind resource in the 
world here in Wyoming/Nebraska, there are occasions where the wind won't 
blow for ten days in a row and that can cause problems.  

I hope this is useful to you and anyone else looking to do wind/solar 
for your sites.

Matt Larsen
vistabeam.com


Mike Hammett wrote:
 Indeed.  AC/DC conversions lose 20% each way.


 -
 Mike Hammett
 Intelligent Computing Solutions
 http://www.ics-il.com



 --
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:19 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

   
 I'd recommend you use either a unmanaged or managed industrial DC powered
 switch 12-20 vdc
 otherwise your going to need a LOT of solar panels (650 watts is what my
 calcs came up with)
 In fact eliminate all 120 AC from your outdoor install for the best 
 results
 to save money on smaller solar rigs.

 Paul

 --
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:09 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 
 Yikes, that is daunting.

 Is that the site your putting in, or your example site?

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:04 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

   
 120

 - Original Message - 
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:35 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 
 Hey Marlon

 is that 1.8 amps at 120VAC or 1.8 amps at 12VDC?

 volts x amps = watts
 the precise nominal and max watts that is the real factor determining
 the
 size of the power system needed
 the difference is 25 watts or 250 watts :)
 CostCo has a solar panel + charger + frame that would work for 25 
 watts,
 I
 think

 500 is good price, since your able to access it easily, it shouldn't be
 much
 of risk.

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:29 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

   
 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar
 system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50

Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread ralph
I was going to ask about this. 
Harbor freight has a set of 3 on sale for 199 with controller and a few
other goodies.
I keep meaning to go get some before they go off sale again (I may be too
late already)


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 2:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

I was shocked to find the 15W panels at Northern for $79.00.  I 
ordered some and they work great.  You need a charge controller, 
$45.00 to keep the batteries from over charging.  You have to get 
creative with uni-strut and angle iron to make your own mount, or buy 
them.  Batteries are the biggest expense.  So to answer your question, yes.


At 11:29 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar system
good enough for our radios these days?

Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
marlon






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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Scottie Arnett
Interesting. What radios are you powering this with?

Scottie

-- Original Message --
From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:50:14 -0500

I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00 
charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built 
my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The 
battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might 
not be the club way to do it, but it works.

Mike

At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less than
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread RickG
Are you running ac/dc transformers?
-RickG

On Tue, Aug 25, 2009 at 2:09 PM, Chuck Profitocprof...@cv-access.com wrote:
 Our solar site has 2 deep cycle marine batteries in series running
 everything at 24 volts with no inverter.
 It lasts more than a week, closer to two I think, running 2 star boards w/
 two radios each. We don't have temp problems so we just put batteries and
 injectors in a water heater stand.

 -Original Message-
 From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:33 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Just an example of how little power we really need.

 I guess I'm too used to those 500 horse power irrigation pumps we use.

 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:09 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Yikes, that is daunting.

 Is that the site your putting in, or your example site?

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:04 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 120

 - Original Message -
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:35 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


 Hey Marlon

 is that 1.8 amps at 120VAC or 1.8 amps at 12VDC?

 volts x amps = watts
 the precise nominal and max watts that is the real factor determining
 the
 size of the power system needed
 the difference is 25 watts or 250 watts :)
 CostCo has a solar panel + charger + frame that would work for 25 watts,
 I
 think

 500 is good price, since your able to access it easily, it shouldn't be
 much
 of risk.

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:29 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar
 system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.

 Mike

 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a
lot
of
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due
to
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
this
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have
less
than
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or
low
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the
foggy
or
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation.
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!)
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon



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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread John Thomas
Absolutely, 12, 24, or 48 volts depending on what you are trying to do.

John


Paul Rice wrote:
 I'd recommend you use either a unmanaged or managed industrial DC powered 
 switch 12-20 vdc
 otherwise your going to need a LOT of solar panels (650 watts is what my 
 calcs came up with)
 In fact eliminate all 120 AC from your outdoor install for the best results 
 to save money on smaller solar rigs.

 Paul

 --
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:09 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

   
 Yikes, that is daunting.

 Is that the site your putting in, or your example site?

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:04 PM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 
 120

 - Original Message - 
 From: Paul Rice paul.r...@boomerang-networks.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 9:35 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


   
 Hey Marlon

 is that 1.8 amps at 120VAC or 1.8 amps at 12VDC?

 volts x amps = watts
 the precise nominal and max watts that is the real factor determining 
 the
 size of the power system needed
 the difference is 25 watts or 250 watts :)
 CostCo has a solar panel + charger + frame that would work for 25 watts,
 I
 think

 500 is good price, since your able to access it easily, it shouldn't be
 much
 of risk.

 --
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 11:29 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

 
 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar 
 system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon

 - Original Message - 
 From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 8:50 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site


   
 I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.

 Mike

 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
 
 Hi All,

 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a
 lot
 of
 help.

 I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due
 to
 the costs I've seen tossed about.

 Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
 needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
 that's
 within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

 I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
 this
 site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have 
 less
 than
 a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

 We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or 
 low
 clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the 
 foggy
 or
 cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
 generation.
 I think.

 So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
 welcome!)
 and anything else I'm missing.

 Thanks all!
 marlon



 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread John Thomas
It looks like there is a sweet spot at 60 watts

http://www.solarhome.org/51-60wattsolarpanels.aspx

About $250 each.

John

Mike wrote:
 I was shocked to find the 15W panels at Northern for $79.00.  I 
 ordered some and they work great.  You need a charge controller, 
 $45.00 to keep the batteries from over charging.  You have to get 
 creative with uni-strut and angle iron to make your own mount, or buy 
 them.  Batteries are the biggest expense.  So to answer your question, yes.


 At 11:29 AM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
   
 Are you really saying that less than 500 bucks will build a solar system
 good enough for our radios these days?

 Dude, if that's true I can open up a LOT more doors!
 marlon
 




 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Mike
This particular setup is mounted to a 4 x 6 x 4 Wells Cargo enclosed 
trailer.  I painted it bright white and added my logo and on one side 
Solar Powered Wireless.  I park it at events and provide free 
WiFi.  I park it downtown every Friday for Farmers Market and the 
name recognition has been outstanding.

I have a 40 foot Wonder Pole mounted to the side I swing into 
position and hoist a Deliberant panel up.  Inside the trailer I have 
a Deliberant AP2i doing DHCP and giving out access.  I don't push the 
pole up farther than 15 or 20 feet for events, but will run it all 
the way up for site surveys on occasion.

Both radios pull less than an Amp total and the system supplies 2.5 
Amp in good sun.  The 800 Amp hour battery will run it for 800 hours?

Mike

At 08:04 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
Interesting. What radios are you powering this with?

Scottie

-- Original Message --
From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:50:14 -0500

 I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.
 
 Mike
 
 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
 Hi All,
 
 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I 
 need a lot of
 help.
 
 I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
 the costs I've seen tossed about.
 
 Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
 needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill that's
 within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.
 
 I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
 site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll 
 have less than
 a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).
 
 We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
 clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy or
 cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind generation.
 I think.
 
 So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors welcome!)
 and anything else I'm missing.
 
 Thanks all!
 marlon
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread ralph
That sounds like great public service and a way to get recognized too!

If you want to see something that really gets attention, have a look at my
site survey/portable AP rig.
http://ralphfowler.com
I have been reluctant to put signs on it though, for obvious reasons.
(people already think I am toting a rocket launcher) LOL
 Ralph

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 10:57 PM
To: sarn...@info-ed.com; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] solar site

This particular setup is mounted to a 4 x 6 x 4 Wells Cargo enclosed 
trailer.  I painted it bright white and added my logo and on one side 
Solar Powered Wireless.  I park it at events and provide free 
WiFi.  I park it downtown every Friday for Farmers Market and the 
name recognition has been outstanding.

I have a 40 foot Wonder Pole mounted to the side I swing into 
position and hoist a Deliberant panel up.  Inside the trailer I have 
a Deliberant AP2i doing DHCP and giving out access.  I don't push the 
pole up farther than 15 or 20 feet for events, but will run it all 
the way up for site surveys on occasion.

Both radios pull less than an Amp total and the system supplies 2.5 
Amp in good sun.  The 800 Amp hour battery will run it for 800 hours?

Mike

At 08:04 PM 8/25/2009, you wrote:
Interesting. What radios are you powering this with?

Scottie

-- Original Message --
From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Tue, 25 Aug 2009 10:50:14 -0500

 I bought two of the Northern Tool $79.00 15 watt panels, their $49.00
 charge controller, a deep cycle marine battery from Walmart and built
 my own.  So far, the fully charged light comes on every day.  The
 battery should run my two radio repeater for more than a week.  Might
 not be the club way to do it, but it works.
 
 Mike
 
 At 11:09 PM 8/24/2009, you wrote:
 Hi All,
 
 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I 
 need a lot of
 help.
 
 I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due
to
 the costs I've seen tossed about.
 
 Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
 needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill
that's
 within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.
 
 I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for
this
 site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll 
 have less than
 a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).
 
 We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
 clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy
or
 cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind
generation.
 I think.
 
 So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors
welcome!)
 and anything else I'm missing.
 
 Thanks all!
 marlon
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-25 Thread Steve
Here is another one to check out:  http://www.alpha.com.  They are here 
in Bellingham, Washington.

They were recommended to us by BelAir.  I talked to them a few times, 
then our opportunity to use solar went away, at least for now.

Steve Hansen

Tom Sharples wrote:
 For a complete system, these guys are the best IMO:

 http://www.sunwize.com/

 Robert Damrau
 Reno, Nevada; Tel: 775-969-3131

 What you need should be around $2K assembled.

 You can build your own from scratch for maybe $1200,  but if e.g the solar 
 cell or charger goes bad, it's all on you.

 Tom S.

 - Original Message - 
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Cc: Principal WISPA Member List w...@wispa.org; 
 isp-wirel...@isp-wireless.com
 Sent: Monday, August 24, 2009 9:09 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] solar site


   
 Hi All,

 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot 
 of
 help.

 I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to
 the costs I've seen tossed about.

 Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment
 needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill 
 that's
 within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

 I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this
 site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less 
 than
 a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

 We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low
 clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy or
 cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind 
 generation.
 I think.

 So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors 
 welcome!)
 and anything else I'm missing.

 Thanks all!
 marlon



 
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[WISPA] solar site

2009-08-24 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Hi All,

Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot of 
help.

I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to 
the costs I've seen tossed about.

Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment 
needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill that's 
within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.

I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this 
site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less than 
a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).

We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low 
clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy or 
cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind generation. 
I think.

So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors welcome!) 
and anything else I'm missing.

Thanks all!
marlon




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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-24 Thread Scott Carullo

When you are done compiling your list share the final back out please.  

Scott Carullo
Brevard Wireless
321-205-1100 x102

 Original Message 
 From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 25, 2009 12:10 AM
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: [WISPA] solar site
 
 Hi All,
 
 Sorry for the cross post.  Time is short on this project and I need a lot 
of 
 help.
 
 I've never done a solar project.  Never really even looked at them due to 

 the costs I've seen tossed about.
 
 Now I have a customer that's willing to purchase the initial equipment 
 needed to cover his community.  The ONLY way into the area is a hill 
that's 
 within sight of my tower and NOT anywhere near power.
 
 I'll be able to just run a single MT board with two radios in it for this 

 site.  One backhaul and 1 distribution.  I'll guess that I'll have less 
than 
 a 2 amp draw (probably much less than 1 amp in reality).
 
 We don't often get long periods of no sun.  Could be days of fog or low 
 clouds in the winter, but mostly we'll have a lot of sun.  On the foggy 
or 
 cloudy days we often don't have enough wind to worry about wind 
generation. 
 I think.
 
 So, please clue me in on what to buy, who to buy it from (vendors 
welcome!) 
 and anything else I'm missing.
 
 Thanks all!
 marlon
 
 
 
 


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Re: [WISPA] solar site

2009-08-24 Thread Paul Rice
Hi Marlon,

Solar isn't that hard we just need to look at a details to figure out what is 
required and move on from there
here are details to figure out about solar to make sure it works right

1.  figure out how many watt-hours a day he will need for MT radio. Average and 
maximum watt-hours

2. what voltage he needs for his radios 

3.  latitude of the site

4. Average low temperature (how cold does it get)

5. Does the radio site have an unobstructed view of the Sun's path through the 
sky?

6. Other stuff, like physical security,

7. back up battery capacity (how many days operation without charging (for fog 
or cloudy days, or low sun availability - winter.) Your message stated that 
there were few of those days.

8. And depending on difficulty of reaching the site, what PMI interval would be 
desired. (affects component and battery choices.)

9. And what kind of OOB management and remote reset capabilities are desired. 
(cellular access, for example)

I've used Talley in the past for solar in the past.  You can give them the 
details and they'll spec it, quote it, and build it it for you
Albert Esquer [aesq...@talleycom.com] is the gentleman I've worked with while 
at Invensys

Paul Rice



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