Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Charles Wu wrote: Ultimately, the issue is one of size and uncertainty...say I'm a product manufacturer for xyz radio infrastructure company, and I have some chunk of $$$ to put into designing a product for a specific market...from a bang-for-buck perspective, it's a lot easier to build a system for Wadeem Telecom in Pakistan who's willing to put a PO together for a bizzilion units to replace crappy POTs line and to offer 64k service than to build for a fragmented market of 5000-1 of which we're not quite sure if it really exists Well put. This jives with what I'm seeing with various unlicensed WiMax vendors, as well. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
We have not ran into that yet. But thanks for letting us know. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Should have read have you been affected... Patrick Shoemaker President, Vector Data Systems LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: (301) 358-1690 x36 mobile: (410) 991-5791 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Patrick Shoemaker wrote: Tom, on a semi-related note, have affected by the VLAN bug on these radios? The radio will not respond to any traffic originating outside if its own subnet if VLAN support is enabled. That means no monitoring by a NMS if it's not on the same subnet as the radio. Trango confirmed the bug back in February but has been unable / unwilling to fix it so far... Patrick Shoemaker President, Vector Data Systems LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: (301) 358-1690 x36 mobile: (410) 991-5791 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: The T45 is probably my favorite ptp radio today, but I'm severally limited without support for 10mhz channels. I usually run 20Mhz channels, but the safety blanket to be able to drop to 10Mhz to get around interference is priceless, when it is needed. Thats never known until after the gear is deployed. I agree, just add supprot for 10Mhz channels, and Its all good for me. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Thay just need to add a couple of features to the t45... Better ethernet configuration options 5 10 40 channels support gino -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:13 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Kick ASX PTP systems. Both Tri-Band Atlases, and Licensed Links. The have the potential to stay a price leader in Quality PtP. As for the PTMP To this day, I have never been able to get over the need to do scans on the fly from APs, to determine best channel to try. The Atlas still gives us that, and makes it a long term contendor against all the other options. I think Trango realizes they can't miss the PTP licensed market, (its to important) and that they need to stay focused on it. What I don't understand is why they can't just write some quick firmware mods, and turn the Atlast PTP Ext into an Atlas PTMP AP? I sure hope they don't give up on the MM5, even if it can't give us everything we want. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
I've heard most of the backstory on the Trango MM death. In a way I think we should applaud Z for killing it. It would not do what we needed for the next generation product it needed to be. He could have delivered it half-baked, and maybe even broken even on it, but in the long term, it would have cost us all. He took a painful loss, dropped some programmers / engineers who could not deliver what they promised, and is now regrouping. I've heard rumor of them considering ramped up AP for the current line, but am not holding my breath. I also understand they may be working on a very high-end 5GHZ ptp link radio (like the Giga line). That could be a good thing too. 3.650 would be nice :) Appreciate your input and insight Charles. Randy Charles Wu wrote: Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
The T45 is probably my favorite ptp radio today, but I'm severally limited without support for 10mhz channels. I usually run 20Mhz channels, but the safety blanket to be able to drop to 10Mhz to get around interference is priceless, when it is needed. Thats never known until after the gear is deployed. I agree, just add supprot for 10Mhz channels, and Its all good for me. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Thay just need to add a couple of features to the t45... Better ethernet configuration options 5 10 40 channels support gino -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:13 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Kick ASX PTP systems. Both Tri-Band Atlases, and Licensed Links. The have the potential to stay a price leader in Quality PtP. As for the PTMP To this day, I have never been able to get over the need to do scans on the fly from APs, to determine best channel to try. The Atlas still gives us that, and makes it a long term contendor against all the other options. I think Trango realizes they can't miss the PTP licensed market, (its to important) and that they need to stay focused on it. What I don't understand is why they can't just write some quick firmware mods, and turn the Atlast PTP Ext into an Atlas PTMP AP? I sure hope they don't give up on the MM5, even if it can't give us everything we want. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Tom, on a semi-related note, have affected by the VLAN bug on these radios? The radio will not respond to any traffic originating outside if its own subnet if VLAN support is enabled. That means no monitoring by a NMS if it's not on the same subnet as the radio. Trango confirmed the bug back in February but has been unable / unwilling to fix it so far... Patrick Shoemaker President, Vector Data Systems LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: (301) 358-1690 x36 mobile: (410) 991-5791 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: The T45 is probably my favorite ptp radio today, but I'm severally limited without support for 10mhz channels. I usually run 20Mhz channels, but the safety blanket to be able to drop to 10Mhz to get around interference is priceless, when it is needed. Thats never known until after the gear is deployed. I agree, just add supprot for 10Mhz channels, and Its all good for me. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Thay just need to add a couple of features to the t45... Better ethernet configuration options 5 10 40 channels support gino -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:13 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Kick ASX PTP systems. Both Tri-Band Atlases, and Licensed Links. The have the potential to stay a price leader in Quality PtP. As for the PTMP To this day, I have never been able to get over the need to do scans on the fly from APs, to determine best channel to try. The Atlas still gives us that, and makes it a long term contendor against all the other options. I think Trango realizes they can't miss the PTP licensed market, (its to important) and that they need to stay focused on it. What I don't understand is why they can't just write some quick firmware mods, and turn the Atlast PTP Ext into an Atlas PTMP AP? I sure hope they don't give up on the MM5, even if it can't give us everything we want. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Should have read have you been affected... Patrick Shoemaker President, Vector Data Systems LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: (301) 358-1690 x36 mobile: (410) 991-5791 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Patrick Shoemaker wrote: Tom, on a semi-related note, have affected by the VLAN bug on these radios? The radio will not respond to any traffic originating outside if its own subnet if VLAN support is enabled. That means no monitoring by a NMS if it's not on the same subnet as the radio. Trango confirmed the bug back in February but has been unable / unwilling to fix it so far... Patrick Shoemaker President, Vector Data Systems LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] office: (301) 358-1690 x36 mobile: (410) 991-5791 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Tom DeReggi wrote: The T45 is probably my favorite ptp radio today, but I'm severally limited without support for 10mhz channels. I usually run 20Mhz channels, but the safety blanket to be able to drop to 10Mhz to get around interference is priceless, when it is needed. Thats never known until after the gear is deployed. I agree, just add supprot for 10Mhz channels, and Its all good for me. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Gino Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 12:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Thay just need to add a couple of features to the t45... Better ethernet configuration options 5 10 40 channels support gino -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:13 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Kick ASX PTP systems. Both Tri-Band Atlases, and Licensed Links. The have the potential to stay a price leader in Quality PtP. As for the PTMP To this day, I have never been able to get over the need to do scans on the fly from APs, to determine best channel to try. The Atlas still gives us that, and makes it a long term contendor against all the other options. I think Trango realizes they can't miss the PTP licensed market, (its to important) and that they need to stay focused on it. What I don't understand is why they can't just write some quick firmware mods, and turn the Atlast PTP Ext into an Atlas PTMP AP? I sure hope they don't give up on the MM5, even if it can't give us everything we want. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
I fully agree. I'd rather a product line be cancelled than one released that would cause the buyers to loose face/money after we bought into the line. Of course what I would like most, is the product that the MM5 promised. But as the song goes, You can't always get what you want, but sometimes you can get what you need. To Trango's defense, it was an ambutious effort, and one nobody else could deliver on yet either. What I do respect is someone's vision to try, and Trango definately tried. Trango invested huge amounts of time and money RDing the MM5 product line, to the point that Betas were on the street. I applaud their vision and effort, even if it did not come to play. Its that vision, that has enabled Trango to put out so many good products that they have put out to date. Its that vision that is allowing a very strong base of Licensed products to develop today as well. It still amazes me every day, that I have Radios installed and running since 2000 (eight years), and they are still my radio of choice in many many cases. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Randy Cosby [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, July 21, 2008 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents I've heard most of the backstory on the Trango MM death. In a way I think we should applaud Z for killing it. It would not do what we needed for the next generation product it needed to be. He could have delivered it half-baked, and maybe even broken even on it, but in the long term, it would have cost us all. He took a painful loss, dropped some programmers / engineers who could not deliver what they promised, and is now regrouping. I've heard rumor of them considering ramped up AP for the current line, but am not holding my breath. I also understand they may be working on a very high-end 5GHZ ptp link radio (like the Giga line). That could be a good thing too. 3.650 would be nice :) Appreciate your input and insight Charles. Randy Charles Wu wrote: Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Charles, You are full of all kinds of good posts this weekend. Glad to have you back on list! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Kick ASX PTP systems. Both Tri-Band Atlases, and Licensed Links. The have the potential to stay a price leader in Quality PtP. As for the PTMP To this day, I have never been able to get over the need to do scans on the fly from APs, to determine best channel to try. The Atlas still gives us that, and makes it a long term contendor against all the other options. I think Trango realizes they can't miss the PTP licensed market, (its to important) and that they need to stay focused on it. What I don't understand is why they can't just write some quick firmware mods, and turn the Atlast PTP Ext into an Atlas PTMP AP? I sure hope they don't give up on the MM5, even if it can't give us everything we want. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
What the manufacturer's are missing is a very basic key principle. Lets look at Blackberry for a second. Whats so good about them? Talking about a minimal weak layer of added value. They offer Push Email. HUGE HUGE impact in productivity. But the thing is this is not a new unique idea, nor is it a hard thing to implement. Proabably anyone of us could write scripts on our own mail servers to do similar things to our Email users. But because Blackberry is smart enough to realize that this tiny tiny enhancement make all the difference in the world, Blackberry is taking over the high end cell phone market. I don't have stats, but I bet more Business users have Blackberrys than Sprint and ATT direct plans. (Note: Peter R. brought this up at last ISPCON.) Wireless manufacturers need to realize the same thing. Little things make all the difference. The Wifi market is getting competitive nowadays with things like the NanoStation for $75. But I tell you, that is the race to the bottom. ARG not another system with a 7db CPE antenna :-( But for the quality market, a high end product is very much in demand still, and would sell itself. I have never once flenched at paying $500-$700 for a CPE, in our urban markets. I'm just tired of buying junk. Ironically, I have a radio lnik that has been failing at one of my sites. I've replace everything twice. Still no luck, it locks up ever now and then. My solution was, I'm jsut going to replace it with another brand and avoid any further troubleshooting. Then this Email's point became evident. What was I going to put there? I could put canopy, but to slow, because I have two buildings to serve each one has a 5mbps FDX customer, plus a couple other small use subs. I don't want to go PTP, because I ahve two buildings to hit, and I'm running out of available spectrum and space to mount antennas. I considered Alvarion, but who wants to pay $7000 for the AP, and $3000 for 2 APs, in order to get 54mbps modualtions radios, and give the next 6 months of profit away? I have alot of APs up there and lots of noise. I thought of putting OEM units, but with out the ability to do SCANS that pick up non-wifi, its to risky to not be able to manage my network fast enough. At the end of the day, I left the Trango up there, and bought a $150 auto ping reboot device. My point being There are many products that give decent speed and decent price, but there wasn't one product on the market that I could find, that gave decend price and decent speed, that ALSO had the ability to do SCANs that picked up non-Wifi devices. This is a HUGE feature because it allows me to hear my other Trango APs, and lets me know what channel I can switch to that will less likely destroy one of my other links, if I run into interference, and ahve to switch channels. My point is... I'd rather pay $500 for a CPE anyday of the weak, than give up that feature. It the Blackberry feature of Fixed Wireless gear. My point here is not to just defend Trango, but to iterate that there is a huge open market for quality CPEs and APs. It is NOT a saturated tough competitive market. Next to nobody is making a product to meet a WISP's full need. A single feature can justify a product's survivabilty. Whats our alternateive? Buying a $10,000 WiMax AP? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Travis, I agree with you 100%...I still think there's a huge opportunity in the market right now that's being missed for a solid 2nd player (not Motorola Canopy) in the last-mile access space However, neither you nor I run Trango If you step back and look at the situation, this discussion is pretty interesting, coming from 2 people who really know Trango well-- we were their largest distributor back before they got rid of the channel, and you probably operate one of the largest Trango networks now That said, you've started building out your network with different access solutions, and we're doing other stuff It looks like we've both moved on... -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 5:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Charles, How about selling hundreds of AP's and thousands of SU's to a single customer... and now that's gone. I understand selling a $10k radio has more profit than a few AP's and SU's, but I am only ever going to buy a few of the $10k radio sets, compared with literally thousands of SU's over the years. Travis Microserv
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Tom, Trango has already announced they have canceled the MM5 product. Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Kick ASX PTP systems. Both Tri-Band Atlases, and Licensed Links. The have the potential to stay a price leader in Quality PtP. As for the PTMP To this day, I have never been able to get over the need to do scans on the fly from APs, to determine best channel to try. The Atlas still gives us that, and makes it a long term contendor against all the other options. I think Trango realizes they can't miss the PTP licensed market, (its to important) and that they need to stay focused on it. What I don't understand is why they can't just write some quick firmware mods, and turn the Atlast PTP Ext into an Atlas PTMP AP? I sure hope they don't give up on the MM5, even if it can't give us everything we want. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of "puff" in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The "concept" of interoperability is one of the most "oversold" features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of "WiMAX interoperability" story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS,
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Thay just need to add a couple of features to the t45... Better ethernet configuration options 5 10 40 channels support gino -Original Message- From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, July 20, 2008 3:13 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Kick ASX PTP systems. Both Tri-Band Atlases, and Licensed Links. The have the potential to stay a price leader in Quality PtP. As for the PTMP To this day, I have never been able to get over the need to do scans on the fly from APs, to determine best channel to try. The Atlas still gives us that, and makes it a long term contendor against all the other options. I think Trango realizes they can't miss the PTP licensed market, (its to important) and that they need to stay focused on it. What I don't understand is why they can't just write some quick firmware mods, and turn the Atlast PTP Ext into an Atlas PTMP AP? I sure hope they don't give up on the MM5, even if it can't give us everything we want. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
And these are as robust and immune from interference as Canopy? C'mon Chuck...you know better =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily slant the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) See above 5. Better
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Alvy? Put it this way...do you want to pay $1000 for a CPE, or $200-300 for a CPE? That said, it's worth noting that not all down-converted / hacked 802.11x are created equal Case in point...compare manufacturers who have done more work on their system (getting into the PHY / rewriting or adding/subtracting certain things in the MAC) -- perhaps adding in their own front-end, etc Trango Alvarion RedLine Ligowave (some of their new stuff) Vs. guys who are working at the HAL in the MAC Mikrotik NStream StarOS tweaks Proxim WORP Vs. guys who are just throwing 802.11 inside an outdoor box and tweaking a few things like time-outs or acks Tranzeo Deliberant Ubiquiti In some cases...especially in category 1, the system can be made to be equal to or superior to the capabilities of what a WiMAX system can offer to a WISP deploying last mile in the US...keep in mind, although the WiMAX 802.16d spec offers a lot of cool things, keep in mind, it was designed for low-medium bandwidth replacement of phone lines in licensed / developing countries, and there are a few things about that that don't quite fit the high bandwidth and high noise unlicensed or quasi-coordinated WISP-deployment model of the US... Ultimately, the issue is one of size and uncertainty...say I'm a product manufacturer for xyz radio infrastructure company, and I have some chunk of $$$ to put into designing a product for a specific market...from a bang-for-buck perspective, it's a lot easier to build a system for Wadeem Telecom in Pakistan who's willing to put a PO together for a bizzilion units to replace crappy POTs line and to offer 64k service than to build for a fragmented market of 5000-1 of which we're not quite sure if it really exists That said, another by-product of good PR from WISPA is that it creates awareness from vendors -- while it's fun to abuse them for causing all the problems in the world, the truth of the matter is vendors play an important part in bringing the solutions that will help you innovate and grow your business. -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Tom, Although hardware is a portion of any product investment...more importantly, the high costs that you see up-front have to do with the expected amortization of RD For example...one may ask, why are WiMAX basestations 3-8x the cost of a proprietary base station Well, in the international market, where WiMAX is basically being used to deliver BE type service (crappy last-mile connectivity to places that have nothing), nifty QoS features aren't really that important, and the manufacturers lose the ability to vendor lock operators into their platform due to the fact that the operator truly could care less about the ability to do nRPT, UGS, or resizing his OFDM symbol slots, blah blah blah... To add fuel to the fire here, since we're generally talking relatively low bandwidth requirements on a CPE...Keep in mind, the vast majority of WiMAX deployments have been in underserved 3rd world / developing countries, where it's possible to over-subscribe a 10 Mb AP 500:1 or even higher due to the fact that the subscriber plans being sold average ~64 kb. In the scenario where the operator is buying lots and lots of CPE, his sensitivity to CPE pricing increases in that market, due to the plethora of cheap CPE / SU manufacturers on the market, the manufacturer either will 1. Sell the base station and miss out on CPE sales 2. Sell the base station but be forced to discount CPE at or below cost to hold onto CPE sales The premium manufacturer has to make his money on the base station, b/c he isn't making anything on the CPE On the contrary, in the US market, due to a wide variety of cheap crappy solutions on the market today and the plethora of landline broadband options, for most of the market, WiMAX doesn't really have a HUGE role in the residential / SOHO access market... That said, the thrill of WiMAX in the market is more likely caused by the availability of quasi-coordinated high-power point-to-multipoint spectrum in the 3.65 GHz band. In this scenario, I like to compare the excitement of the 3.65 GHz band of today to the excitement of the 5 GHz band back in 2002 when everyone was still using 2.4 GHz for last-mile access. Both bands generally hit the market as a fresh solution for backhaul and/or premium-class business access... The characteristics of this type of a market is a lot different than that of the residential cheap-crappy access market...namely caused by lower CPE deployment density...as a result, the operators are generally 1. Less sensitive to CPE prices 2. Less sensitive to vendor lock from proprietary systems To sum, the current mindset of the manufacturer is as follows (keep in mind, this is being influenced by their involvement in the international market) I need to sell my AP for $10k b/c I'm either going to lose CPE sales or have to sell them near my cost (b/c today, I have to get to $300 / CPE and by next year, I have to get to $200 / CPE) My counterargument here would be this Sell you AP for $3k, b/c operators will have to buy your AP for its QoS / premium features -- and the very nature of those QoS / premium features will lock the customers into using your CPE...since they will be used for either backhaul or high-value business customers, while it'd be nice to have a $200 CPE...if the system does things (like VoIP prioritization, high pps services, MPLS, psuedowire support) that a $200 Canopy / Tranzeo / Alvarion / Trango / whatever won't support, the operators won't mind paying $400-600 for that CPE because they will not have the ability to charge $400-800 / month ARPUs with that product -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Great post.Charles. What I find funny is The primary WiMax vendors, (Alvarion, redline, airspan, Aperto, etc) were always the Vendors that tried to sell their Non-Wimax grear for $10,000 an AP before WImax came to play. (For example: Alvarion still trying to sell unlicensed VL AUs for $6k and 54mb SUs for $1.5k ) The question I pose is... What is the driving force to price? Is Wimax expensive? Or is it the system manufactures that impose the expensive? Is WiMax just a buzzward excuse, to help justify why they can try to get the price they want? I argue that there is not anything functional about WiMax that makes it more costly to product. Any arguement to justify why it is expensive, is a load of Crxp. It doesn't have to be. (Actually, it does take significantly more processing power, so those 386-100Mhz SBCs are a thing of the past, but proportionally the SBCs and Chips with fast enough processing power, are inexpensive today.). I thought it rather interesting to see the N/MIMO mpci
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Wu-WU Special? Or the Mr. That Said Special? Hehe... Maybe it's a subliminal message to get you to contact me off list =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily slant the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
I'd love to know more about WiMAX, but I seem to get one extreme or the other from those I talk to -- it either solves world hunger, or it's a giant piece of crap. Neither of the above statement have merit Which reminds me of an interesting insight I've learned on the role of subject matter experts and intelligence You only need to know 1% more than the guy you're talking to to be considered a genius, b/c he cannot fathom whether you truly only know 1% more, or if you are Albert Einstein The beauty of all of this is that it's very easy in these scenarios to obfuscate the truth with the facts Oh wait, that's called Marketing =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rogelio Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 5:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Charles Wu wrote: Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter What I find most interesting in the wireless space is the fact that the most wireless savvy people I know roll their eyes when WiMAX is mentioned. I'm not sure the reasons for this, but it seems to do with the over hyped expectations, as well as the fact that WiMAX really works only for those people who (a) have already bought spectrum rights, (b) are willing to buy a bunch of other equipment, (c) or have situations where the unlicensed spectrum is already too crowded. Obviously there has got to be a happy medium (a giant piece of crap that solves world hunger, perhaps?) WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Iirc, there where plans for a mm2 and mm9 series... gino -Original Message- From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:51 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Their 45 has promise. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Their 45 has promise. Chuck, if you're talking about their high-bandwidth multipoint 5 GHz product, it was recently halted / stalled / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
No, the point to point. - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Their 45 has promise. Chuck, if you're talking about their high-bandwidth multipoint 5 GHz product, it was recently halted / stalled / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
CopperCom... Hmmm. Taqua is still around and strong. I have a story to tell you about Taqua someday. Motorola: There still is no SM left behind. The 400 is a totally different product line. But they are still coming out with new Canopy products. The line may bifurcate, but they are still true to the no sm left behind mantra. At least for the time being. - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:02 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
No, the point to point. It is a decent product, as long as you don't need it to support high pps and can deal with occasional instability with certain types of traffic Here, IMO, is a more promising (and cheaper) product Here's comments from a customer's testing experience (this one had come along because the Atlas PtP didn't properly support the pps load from running pseudowire) -- Subject: [WISPA] LigoWave proprietary PtP (was Re: Radio Vendor Suggestions) Our office is in the same city, so we have been able to test their new proprietary PtP radios quite extensively. We don't test for raw throughput; we focus on consistent payload with low latency, low jitter and the ability to handle a lot of PPS. While I don't claim to no the limits of their radios, I can tell you that we setup an emulated DS1 (CESoPSN) through their radios with a testset running quasi. The test completed without errors during a 30min run. The test subjected to the radios to 2000pps aggregate with an IP payload size of 192k. Latency was as expected given the distance we were testing (1 mile) and jitter averaged 0.7ms. The performance was in excess of what we have seen with 802.11a-based radios, which I believe speaks positively to the MAC changes they made. Again, we didn't test to see what they were capable of; only that they would meet our minimum requirements, which many radios do not. -- Oh, did I mention they're working on developing a Scheduled MAC to implement in a multipoint application? -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 3:53 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:43 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Their 45 has promise. Chuck, if you're talking about their high-bandwidth multipoint 5 GHz product, it was recently halted / stalled / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Yes, I have regretfully dealt with CopperCom. T.38 was broken on this and their stance was, No one else has this problem, too bad. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Charles, How about selling hundreds of AP's and thousands of SU's to a single customer... and now that's gone. I understand selling a $10k radio has more profit than a few AP's and SU's, but I am only ever going to buy a "few" of the $10k radio sets, compared with literally thousands of SU's over the years. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a "longer-term" view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got "left behind" with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of "puff" in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throu
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
I have been on both ends of this as a manufacturer. I made airborne PBX systems that were installed in the avionics bay of head-of-state, military command and control and corporate fleet aircraft. Almost got airforce1. (I could only do 48 phones and they needed more!) I was very proud of that product line and made good money. We had one point of distribution and installation. But I will take our current situation of a half dozen distributors selling to hundreds of customers a product line that has a couple of dozen low cost items any day. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Charles, How about selling hundreds of AP's and thousands of SU's to a single customer... and now that's gone. I understand selling a $10k radio has more profit than a few AP's and SU's, but I am only ever going to buy a few of the $10k radio sets, compared with literally thousands of SU's over the years. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Travis, I agree with you 100%...I still think there's a huge opportunity in the market right now that's being missed for a solid 2nd player (not Motorola Canopy) in the last-mile access space However, neither you nor I run Trango If you step back and look at the situation, this discussion is pretty interesting, coming from 2 people who really know Trango well-- we were their largest distributor back before they got rid of the channel, and you probably operate one of the largest Trango networks now That said, you've started building out your network with different access solutions, and we're doing other stuff It looks like we've both moved on... -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 5:02 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Charles, How about selling hundreds of AP's and thousands of SU's to a single customer... and now that's gone. I understand selling a $10k radio has more profit than a few AP's and SU's, but I am only ever going to buy a few of the $10k radio sets, compared with literally thousands of SU's over the years. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Chuck, I would argue that it's not really an apples-to-apples comparison for you, due to the fact that you're just selling a passive plastic or metal device that really doesn't go bad (I know there's always exceptions...) Over the years, unless something arrived damaged in shipping, we have probably gotten a total of 3 valid returns for defective antenna / mount hardware out of hundreds of thousands sold On the contrary, getting into CPE devices, where manufacturers are trying to get to that price equilibrium between cheap and carrier-grade, depending on the brand, we'll see RMA/return rates as high as 10% -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown - 3 Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 5:39 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents I have been on both ends of this as a manufacturer. I made airborne PBX systems that were installed in the avionics bay of head-of-state, military command and control and corporate fleet aircraft. Almost got airforce1. (I could only do 48 phones and they needed more!) I was very proud of that product line and made good money. We had one point of distribution and installation. But I will take our current situation of a half dozen distributors selling to hundreds of customers a product line that has a couple of dozen low cost items any day. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 4:01 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Charles, How about selling hundreds of AP's and thousands of SU's to a single customer... and now that's gone. I understand selling a $10k radio has more profit than a few AP's and SU's, but I am only ever going to buy a few of the $10k radio sets, compared with literally thousands of SU's over the years. Travis Microserv Charles Wu wrote: Trango is a very opportunistic company ran by a smart and opportunistic individual, and Z tends to chase the market that makes Z the most money (can't really blame him, as every small business / entrepreneur ultimately employs a similar type of strategy)...at this juncture, their cheap licensed backhaul is probably creating more buzz and profitability for them than trying to develop a multi-point line in a market that's currently racing to the bottom... Think about it, if you were a radio manufacturer, and you could sell a $8-10k backhaul to a single customer that probably has the same amount (if not more) of margin vs selling several hundred SUs to about 30-50 different WISPs, which would you pick? That said, the good news about Trango is that they're privately held (by Z), profitable, and not really in danger of going out of business...the only thing you can blame them for is not being true to their promises in 2004/2005 about an upgrade path for their multi-point product line So yell at them for not being willing to take a longer-term view of the market, but with the rapid change in today's market, is this really even possible? Broken promises in telecom are nothing new Motorola's No-SM left behind program (that got left behind with the Canopy 400 series product) Wi-LAN's WiMAX Upgrade Guarantee (they went out of business and I doubt EION Wireless is going to honor those contracts) Remember KarlNet? Think that's bad...look elsewhere in the Telecom market...anyone ever heard of CopperCom =) -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Saturday, July 19, 2008 2:04 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Hi, You are correct... my mistake. However, the MM5 was going to be 5ghz along with an MM2 (2.4ghz) and MM9 (900mhz)... but as you mentioned, the products have been discontinued. Which really leaves me wondering what Trango is going to be selling? Their 5 year old product is getting slow, and is still very expensive. :( Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, The Trango 5830 / 900 / 2400 were up/down-coverted 802.11b - not 802.11a systems The only 802.11a multipoint system that Trango had was MM5, and it is my understanding that (1) it was never for 900 MHz and (2) it has been put on hold / discontinued -Charles --- WiNOG Wireless Roadshows Coming to a City Near You http://www.winog.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 1:08 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Hi Travis, I'm with you - the Nanostations are a pretty amazing product. I've been deploying Nanostations on 10mhz channels in 2.4 and 5ghz with StarOS access points and the performance/interference resistance is pretty amazing at ANY price point. I could say the same thing for the newer Tranzeo CPE units as well, but they can't match up with the Ubiquity price point just yet. It is neat to see a product with many of the Canopy advantages (rich features, small footprint, inexpensive to produce, good interference resistance) that is compatible with the 802.11a/b/g standards and thus able to take advantage of the very innovative Mikrotik and StarOS platforms. I'm curious to see if someone comes up with a good reflector for the Nanostation radios. That would enable the use of the adaptive antenna mode, and since StarOS has the ability to switch connectors on the fly - and potentially polarity if hooked up to a dual-pol antenna - you would end up with a standards based product that would have nearly every feature that the Trangos had that made them special (noise threshold at the AP, software switchable polarity, site survey, etc). No polling, but that is one of the most overrated features anyway. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, I would agree... I think there is an opportunity as well. There are some new products in the market recently (Ubiquiti Nanostation) that could shake things up a little. Getting an FCC product with PoE and a Ubiquiti quality radio for $79 is pretty amazing (I will be testing some this coming week). It really makes you wonder how much money some of these companies can really have into a radio system (Trango, Canopy, etc.) when Ubiquiti can sell a brand new product for $79 MSRP. Granted there are not a lot of bells and whistles, but honestly most of the WISP's out there don't need that. If you can buy a radio for $79, you can put whatever you need behind it (Cisco, Mikrotik, etc.) and still be less than $200 for a nice CPE. I think Trango's first mistake was the mesh game they played for a year. Then when they decide to get back into the game, they promise a product that seems too good to be true... and now it turns out, it was. So, they are now 2+ years behind everyone else in the RD world, and they are losing customers left and right. The licensed market may help get them by for a while, but I don't think that is enough business to sustain the company forever. Travis Charles Wu wrote: Travis, I agree with you 100%...I still think there's a huge opportunity in the market right now that's being missed for a solid 2nd player (not Motorola Canopy) in the last-mile access space However, neither you nor I run Trango If you step back and look at the situation, this discussion is pretty interesting, coming from 2 people who really know Trango well-- we were their largest distributor back before they got rid of the channel, and you probably operate one of the largest Trango networks now That said, you've started building out your network with different access solutions, and we're doing other stuff It looks like we've both moved on... -Charles WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: "Charles Wu" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of "puff" in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The "concept" of interoperability is one of the most "oversold" features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of "WiMAX interoperability" story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a "premium" service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a "WiMAX" system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only "interoperability" testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily "slant" the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) See above 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) There can be an argument made that the WiMAX MAC is much more sophisticated than the Canopy / Alvarion VL / Trango / Tranzeo / CSMA-CA systems on the market today...that said, don't forget that there is a $$$COST$$$ for this sophistication...namely, you effectively lock yourself i
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Paging Patrick Leary! This would be a great place for some insight. :-) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 12:20 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Great post.Charles. What I find funny is The primary WiMax vendors, (Alvarion, redline, airspan, Aperto, etc) were always the Vendors that tried to sell their Non-Wimax grear for $10,000 an AP before WImax came to play. (For example: Alvarion still trying to sell unlicensed VL AUs for $6k and 54mb SUs for $1.5k ) The question I pose is... What is the driving force to price? Is Wimax expensive? Or is it the system manufactures that impose the expensive? Is WiMax just a buzzward excuse, to help justify why they can try to get the price they want? I argue that there is not anything functional about WiMax that makes it more costly to product. Any arguement to justify why it is expensive, is a load of Crxp. It doesn't have to be. (Actually, it does take significantly more processing power, so those 386-100Mhz SBCs are a thing of the past, but proportionally the SBCs and Chips with fast enough processing power, are inexpensive today.). I thought it rather interesting to see the N/MIMO mpci cards comming out (Ubiquitit SR71). It won't be long before the OEM 4 array antenna N class APs are on the Towers streets and into Mikrotik and other OEM products, doing to Wimax, what they did to proprietary unlicensed, driving price down. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
They dont have any ofdm 900 product gino -Original Message- From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, July 18, 2008 2:09 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents What about Trango? Charles Wu wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Charles Wu wrote: Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter What I find most interesting in the wireless space is the fact that the most wireless savvy people I know roll their eyes when WiMAX is mentioned. I'm not sure the reasons for this, but it seems to do with the over hyped expectations, as well as the fact that WiMAX really works only for those people who (a) have already bought spectrum rights, (b) are willing to buy a bunch of other equipment, (c) or have situations where the unlicensed spectrum is already too crowded. I'd love to know more about WiMAX, but I seem to get one extreme or the other from those I talk to -- it either solves world hunger, or it's a giant piece of crap. Obviously there has got to be a happy medium (a giant piece of crap that solves world hunger, perhaps?) WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily slant the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) See above 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) There can be an argument made that the WiMAX MAC is much more sophisticated than the Canopy / Alvarion VL / Trango / Tranzeo / CSMA-CA systems on the market today...that said, don't forget that there is a $$$COST$$$ for this sophistication...namely, you effectively lock yourself into a proprietary implementation of your WiMAX system 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds of subscribers, our platform supports 30,000 pps ) WiMAX in it's true tested and interoperable state maxes out at an aggregate throughput range of ~10 Mbps per AP To get better performance (up to 20 Mbps / AP), I give up interoperability 7. Support for multiline VOIP out of box ( UGS + 30K PPS ) At the expense of interoperability 8. Sub 350 cpe shipping today ( in 100 packs, less with frame order commitments putting your cost sub 300 )
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily slant the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) See above 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) There can be an argument made that the WiMAX MAC is much more sophisticated than the Canopy / Alvarion VL / Trango / Tranzeo / CSMA-CA systems on the market today...that said, don't forget that there is a $$$COST$$$ for this sophistication...namely, you effectively lock yourself into a proprietary implementation of your WiMAX system 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds of subscribers, our platform supports 30,000 pps ) WiMAX in it's true tested and interoperable state maxes
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily slant the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) See above 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) There can be an argument made that the WiMAX MAC is much more sophisticated than the Canopy / Alvarion VL / Trango / Tranzeo / CSMA-CA systems on the market today...that said, don't forget that there is a $$$COST$$$ for this sophistication...namely, you effectively lock yourself into a proprietary implementation of your WiMAX system 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
And these are as robust and immune from interference as Canopy? - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily slant the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) See above 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) There can be an argument made that the WiMAX MAC is much more sophisticated than the Canopy
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Alvy? On Thu, Jul 17, 2008 at 10:52 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily slant the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) See above 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) There can be an argument made that the WiMAX MAC is much more sophisticated than the Canopy / Alvarion VL / Trango / Tranzeo / CSMA-CA systems on the market today...that said, don't forget that there is a $$$COST$$$ for this sophistication...namely, you effectively lock yourself into a proprietary
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Great post.Charles. What I find funny is The primary WiMax vendors, (Alvarion, redline, airspan, Aperto, etc) were always the Vendors that tried to sell their Non-Wimax grear for $10,000 an AP before WImax came to play. (For example: Alvarion still trying to sell unlicensed VL AUs for $6k and 54mb SUs for $1.5k ) The question I pose is... What is the driving force to price? Is Wimax expensive? Or is it the system manufactures that impose the expensive? Is WiMax just a buzzward excuse, to help justify why they can try to get the price they want? I argue that there is not anything functional about WiMax that makes it more costly to product. Any arguement to justify why it is expensive, is a load of Crxp. It doesn't have to be. (Actually, it does take significantly more processing power, so those 386-100Mhz SBCs are a thing of the past, but proportionally the SBCs and Chips with fast enough processing power, are inexpensive today.). I thought it rather interesting to see the N/MIMO mpci cards comming out (Ubiquitit SR71). It won't be long before the OEM 4 array antenna N class APs are on the Towers streets and into Mikrotik and other OEM products, doing to Wimax, what they did to proprietary unlicensed, driving price down. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents
Wu-WU Special? Or the Mr. That Said Special? Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 11:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents So, what down converted 802.11a systems are there for 900? Mini-PCI: Ubiquiti Zcomax Vendor Solutions: Tranzeo Alvarion Vecima/WaveRider Wu-Wu Special* *We are doing some exploratory investigation =) -Charles - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 9:19 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz - my 2 cents Even thought this thread is a bit old, couldn't help but add my 2 cents (as there seems to be a resurgence of puff in this space) DISCLAIMER: I am also a vendor of various WiMAX 802.16d systems - so feel free to apply your necessary 'BS' filter Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. This isn't all too exciting, IMO - there are plenty of systems out there that have similar (if not better) spectral efficiency characteristics as to what the WiMAX 802.16d standard offers...also, with the uncertainties of 3650 licensing, which is, from an interference protection perspective, not that much different that Part-15, higher order modulation schemes don't do much in the presence of noise Case in point: Why does everyone keep using Canopy 900 MHz systems when you can get an 802.11a OFDM-based down-converted system that delivers 3-4x the throughput? Well, it's a matter of what's actually going to work in the crowded 900 MHz band. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) The concept of interoperability is one of the most oversold features of WiMAX which needs to be explained... Fictitious Scenario: Say I had deployed Brand A system for my business users, and in order to enable VoIP services, I enable a variety of the more advanced MAC features (rTP for my VoIP)...I set up a variety of service flows that are customized to each user...blah blah blah Problem is, Brand A system, for whatever reason, didn't support UGS and a few esoteric service flow / packet filtering features, but at the time, I'm really not too concerned because (a) my customers don't demand UGS from me right now and (b) the concept of WiMAX interoperability story gives me the conclusion that if I really need UGS, I could just buy / upgrade to Brand X system and retain all of my Brand A CPEs that I've deployed. Now, 6 months later, I've deployed 50 CPE in the field, and business is doing good...so good in fact that 2 customers want to upgrade to a premium service that requires features not currently supported on Brand A AP. Luckily, I have a WiMAX system so I go upgrade Brand A AP with Brand X. Common sense would lead me to believe that Brand X would support all of my CPE's features, plus supporting the enhanced feature of UGS that I need Sorry, isn't going to work As things turn out, the only interoperability testing done between Brand A CPEs and Brand X APs were done at the Best Effort feature set (basic Ethernet connectivity)...additionally, Rf interoperability was done at a 3.5 MHz channel size, and I've been running Brand A at 10 MHz to maximize my throughput (oh, and Brand X only supports 3.5 MHz, 5 MHz 7 MHz channel sizes)...so to get this interoperability, I lose all of my rTP / VoIP prioritization for my entire network, or I have to go out and replace my 20 Brand A CPEs that are running VoIP with Brand X CPEs Oops What's the moral of the story? Ultimately, unless you're willing to run your network at the lowest common denominator, you're basically buying into a proprietary system. 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) Better RF performance as compared to what? And in what vein? I can easily slant the argument the other way by bringing up an example where a proprietary system outperforms WiMAX Noise Immunity: Are you saying that WiMAX has better noise immunity that Canopy (OFDM vs. FSK...yeah right) NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better NLoS than 900 MHz? Urban Reflective NLOS: Are you saying that WiMAX can do better Urban NLoS than a MIMO-based 1024-FFT OFDM system? 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) See above 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) There can
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
Chuck, Not an ad. Yes I have deployed. I know of 2 competitors that offer sub 400 dollar CPE, as well as us. BR, Jeff Booher Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 12:57:08 -0600, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Have you actually deployed WiMax @ 3.65 and have experienced this first hand? Where can I purchase sub $350 CPE on 3.65 today? This looks more like a vendor's ad than a WISP reporting real world experiences. Lots of dangling comparatives. - Original Message - From: jeffrey thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:45 PM Subject: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz Since everyone was talking about wimax, thought I would throw my 3 cents in :) Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds of subscribers, our platform supports 30,000 pps ) 7. Support for multiline VOIP out of box ( UGS + 30K PPS ) 8. Sub 350 cpe shipping today ( in 100 packs, less with frame order commitments putting your cost sub 300 ) 9. Carrier class systems vs Wisp class ( True 99.999% uptime solutions available for base station equipment, reducing downtime and truck rolls ) 10. Carrier class network management systems that simplify provisioning and management of subscribers and base stations. Even if you don't choose aperto, there are many options in the market to choose from. Talk to your local reseller about your options, Such as Wireless Connections and Wirelessguys carry many products to choose from. Best Regards, Jeff Booher Aperto Networks, Inc Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:14:44 -0500, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Increased spectral efficiency Advanced antenna support (the only benefit I understand is increased signal margin) Higher likelihood of multiple vendors vs. many previous BWA technologies, though not now Eventual lower CPE cost, though not now -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP What is your opinion about the greatness of WiMax based upon? - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I believe that WiMax is great... greater than equipment we currently use. I just don't use it at this time because of the cost. I also don't buy into a lot of the hype people (press, manufacturers, vendors, others) are pushing. I had a project that required 10 meg of synchronous, committed bandwidth per customer. I was told (by more than one group) because of the WiMax magic, I could put 2 - 3 customers on equipment capable of 23 megs. Sorry, you simply cannot put 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound box, no matter the magic. Other than Mikrotik, only the AN-80i would have been worth it. I do appreciate the FCC's requirement of equipment getting along with dissimilar equipment. Who knows when we'll have another Canopy or Tsunami introduced that just doesn't play well with others. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I do not think we should build our networks for the sole purpose of suckering, err, selling to someone else. I do believe that I want anything I build to have value in the event I do sell. That is not suckering anyone. Why not build something that holds value or appreciates in value? I know a future plan for WISPs to build WiMax
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
Scottie, We already do that. We have a sliding scale licensing model that starts at 16 CPE per sector. I know one other competitor that does this as well ( Airspan ) Jeff Booher Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:10:03 -0500, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: It would be great if this worked for everyone, everywhere. Still vendors are missing the point in many cases. Every place does NOT have a potential for 1000 subs (there is not a 1000 homes in the town I live), nor is every place FLAT that can be reached with service for 1000 subs. I have 4 900 Mhz AP's on 4 seperate towers just to cover 150 people in one county we service. I could not cover that many with 4 of your 3.65Ghz, too many hills. Build me an AP that I can buy with licenses for a certain amount of subscribers. Charge me less than $10,000(or whatever yours cost, it will definately be higher than my 900Mhz AP) for that AP, then I will buy into your 3.65. The vendors are taking the same stance as the FCC on these rural areas, forget about them...no money to be made there. Hey even rural folks need broadband too, after all we are people just like in the big cities...only thing is, it doesn't take us an hour or longer to get to work everyday. :) Scott -- Original Message -- From: jeffrey thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 11:45:08 -0700 Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same Aperto Networks, Inc Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:14:44 -0500, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Increased spectral efficiency Advanced antenna support (the only benefit I understand is increased signal margin) Higher likelihood of multiple vendors vs. many previous BWA technologies, though not now Eventual lower CPE cost, though not now -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP What is your opinion about the greatness of WiMax based upon? - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I believe that WiMax is great... greater than equipment we currently use. I just don't use it at this time because of the cost. I also don't buy into a lot of the hype people (press, manufacturers, vendors, others) are pushing. I had a project that required 10 meg of synchronous, committed bandwidth per customer. I was told (by more than one group) because of the WiMax magic, I could put 2 - 3 customers on equipment capable of 23 megs. Sorry, you simply cannot put 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound box, no matter the magic. Other than Mikrotik, only the AN-80i would have been worth it. I do appreciate the FCC's requirement of equipment getting along with dissimilar equipment. Who knows when we'll have another Canopy or Tsunami introduced that just doesn't play well with others. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I do not think we should build our networks for the sole purpose of suckering, err, selling to someone else. I do believe that I want anything I build to have value in the event I do sell. That is not suckering anyone. Why not build something that holds value or appreciates in value? I know a future plan for WISPs to build WiMax networks in 3.65 would result in better networks, better valuations for WISPs and better economies of scale. Leaning on 802.11 further is just not the plan we should be using for new bands and new opportunities like we have in 3650. We have a chance to build something greater than we have now. WiMax is what the rest of the world is already using in the 3.4 thru 3.8 GHz band. Do any of you think it is smarter for us to abandon the global scale afforded to us if we adopt WiMax in 3.65?
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
Jack, Drew is an operator who is already deployed with Airspan, I believe. Is this correct Drew? Yes, forested areas always present a challenge, whether its 900, 700, 3.65ghz, 5.8ghz, etc etc. - Jeff Booher Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 18:53:12 -0700, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Drew, Are you drawing your conclusions based on 3.65 deployments in other parts of the world? I ask because it's hard to imagine that there are already enough 3.65 deployments in the U.S. to draw all your conclusions. Also, physics is still physics. Even given advanced antenna systems, nLOS and NLOS performance at 3.65 is still going to be limited by hills and trees. No matter how advanced the APs and antenna systems, I find it very hard to believe that 3.65 is going to approach the performance of 900 MHz inside of (or on the other side of) a forested area. jack Drew Lentz wrote: I completely disagree with you on this topic. 3.65 makes a great play in a rural setting. I have spoken with many different groups who are capitalizing exactly on what benefits this frequency space offers in these environments. The price tags are not as high as you think, and the return on it is far greater than just how quickly your money comes back in. The ability to provide high bandwidth services in a space where you can control the QoS and give your end-users the ability (soon) to choose their own client device, at least to me, makes more sense than using a lightweight product like 900. As fas as battling terrain changes, look again at the nLOS and NLOS characteristics of 3.65 .. not to mention mobility and the self-install CPE. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Vendor-Neutral Wireless Design-Training-Troubleshooting-Consulting FCC License # PG-12-25133 Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
We already do that. We have a sliding scale licensing model that starts at 16 CPE per sector. I know one other competitor that does this as well ( Airspan ) Is there an omni option? We have some rural sites that only have like 15 users on the total site. They don't make us much money but I would prefer to not just tell users in areas like this tough. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
We operated in 2.5/6 with Navini and saw some great results. I know that it is a different monster than 3.65, but I guess the point that I was trying to make was the overall difference in using a robust product, like what's available in 3.65, vs using off the shelf or even Moto 900. I completely understand the terrain variance in the different parts of the US and as such, the signal prop will vary based on the type of deployment, the area of coverage, etc. However, what I have seen and heard in the 3.65 space excites me because of the characteristics of the equipment, the available power, and the amount of bandwidth available to the end-user. I agree that the jury is still out because of the lack of large-scale deployments, but I really like what I am seeing and hearing so far. While 900 is a killer freq to have in areas like you were speaking of, because of its propagation through high forestation etc, a small micro cell deployment of 3.65 in those same areas can yield higher throughputs and greater availability of low-cost CPE (when they get approved and on the market) to the end-users. I guess I'm just a fan of larger systems :) -d jeffrey thomas wrote: Jack, Drew is an operator who is already deployed with Airspan, I believe. Is this correct Drew? Yes, forested areas always present a challenge, whether its 900, 700, 3.65ghz, 5.8ghz, etc etc. - Jeff Booher Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 18:53:12 -0700, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Drew, Are you drawing your conclusions based on 3.65 deployments in other parts of the world? I ask because it's hard to imagine that there are already enough 3.65 deployments in the U.S. to draw all your conclusions. Also, physics is still physics. Even given advanced antenna systems, nLOS and NLOS performance at 3.65 is still going to be limited by hills and trees. No matter how advanced the APs and antenna systems, I find it very hard to believe that 3.65 is going to approach the performance of 900 MHz inside of (or on the other side of) a forested area. jack Drew Lentz wrote: I completely disagree with you on this topic. 3.65 makes a great play in a rural setting. I have spoken with many different groups who are capitalizing exactly on what benefits this frequency space offers in these environments. The price tags are not as high as you think, and the return on it is far greater than just how quickly your money comes back in. The ability to provide high bandwidth services in a space where you can control the QoS and give your end-users the ability (soon) to choose their own client device, at least to me, makes more sense than using a lightweight product like 900. As fas as battling terrain changes, look again at the nLOS and NLOS characteristics of 3.65 .. not to mention mobility and the self-install CPE. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Vendor-Neutral Wireless Design-Training-Troubleshooting-Consulting FCC License # PG-12-25133 Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
That sounds great. I know I talked to someone from Aperto before, but could someone hit me up offlist? Since Airspan does this as well, could someone from there? -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: jeffrey thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, July 07, 2008 12:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz Scottie, We already do that. We have a sliding scale licensing model that starts at 16 CPE per sector. I know one other competitor that does this as well ( Airspan ) Jeff Booher Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:10:03 -0500, Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: It would be great if this worked for everyone, everywhere. Still vendors are missing the point in many cases. Every place does NOT have a potential for 1000 subs (there is not a 1000 homes in the town I live), nor is every place FLAT that can be reached with service for 1000 subs. I have 4 900 Mhz AP's on 4 seperate towers just to cover 150 people in one county we service. I could not cover that many with 4 of your 3.65Ghz, too many hills. Build me an AP that I can buy with licenses for a certain amount of subscribers. Charge me less than $10,000(or whatever yours cost, it will definately be higher than my 900Mhz AP) for that AP, then I will buy into your 3.65. The vendors are taking the same stance as the FCC on these rural areas, forget about them...no money to be made there. Hey even rural folks need broadband too, after all we are people just like in the big cities...only thing is, it doesn't take us an hour or longer to get to work everyday. :) Scott -- Original Message -- From: jeffrey thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 11:45:08 -0700 Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same Aperto Networks, Inc Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:14:44 -0500, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Increased spectral efficiency Advanced antenna support (the only benefit I understand is increased signal margin) Higher likelihood of multiple vendors vs. many previous BWA technologies, though not now Eventual lower CPE cost, though not now -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP What is your opinion about the greatness of WiMax based upon? - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I believe that WiMax is great... greater than equipment we currently use. I just don't use it at this time because of the cost. I also don't buy into a lot of the hype people (press, manufacturers, vendors, others) are pushing. I had a project that required 10 meg of synchronous, committed bandwidth per customer. I was told (by more than one group) because of the WiMax magic, I could put 2 - 3 customers on equipment capable of 23 megs. Sorry, you simply cannot put 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound box, no matter the magic. Other than Mikrotik, only the AN-80i would have been worth it. I do appreciate the FCC's requirement of equipment getting along with dissimilar equipment. Who knows when we'll have another Canopy or Tsunami introduced that just doesn't play well with others. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I do not think we should build our networks for the sole purpose of suckering, err, selling to someone else. I do believe that I want anything I build to have value in the event I do sell. That is not suckering anyone. Why not build something that holds value or appreciates in value? I know a future plan for WISPs to build WiMax
[WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
Since everyone was talking about wimax, thought I would throw my 3 cents in :) Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds of subscribers, our platform supports 30,000 pps ) 7. Support for multiline VOIP out of box ( UGS + 30K PPS ) 8. Sub 350 cpe shipping today ( in 100 packs, less with frame order commitments putting your cost sub 300 ) 9. Carrier class systems vs Wisp class ( True 99.999% uptime solutions available for base station equipment, reducing downtime and truck rolls ) 10. Carrier class network management systems that simplify provisioning and management of subscribers and base stations. Even if you don't choose aperto, there are many options in the market to choose from. Talk to your local reseller about your options, Such as Wireless Connections and Wirelessguys carry many products to choose from. Best Regards, Jeff Booher Aperto Networks, Inc Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:14:44 -0500, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Increased spectral efficiency Advanced antenna support (the only benefit I understand is increased signal margin) Higher likelihood of multiple vendors vs. many previous BWA technologies, though not now Eventual lower CPE cost, though not now -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP What is your opinion about the greatness of WiMax based upon? - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I believe that WiMax is great... greater than equipment we currently use. I just don't use it at this time because of the cost. I also don't buy into a lot of the hype people (press, manufacturers, vendors, others) are pushing. I had a project that required 10 meg of synchronous, committed bandwidth per customer. I was told (by more than one group) because of the WiMax magic, I could put 2 - 3 customers on equipment capable of 23 megs. Sorry, you simply cannot put 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound box, no matter the magic. Other than Mikrotik, only the AN-80i would have been worth it. I do appreciate the FCC's requirement of equipment getting along with dissimilar equipment. Who knows when we'll have another Canopy or Tsunami introduced that just doesn't play well with others. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I do not think we should build our networks for the sole purpose of suckering, err, selling to someone else. I do believe that I want anything I build to have value in the event I do sell. That is not suckering anyone. Why not build something that holds value or appreciates in value? I know a future plan for WISPs to build WiMax networks in 3.65 would result in better networks, better valuations for WISPs and better economies of scale. Leaning on 802.11 further is just not the plan we should be using for new bands and new opportunities like we have in 3650. We have a chance to build something greater than we have now. WiMax is what the rest of the world is already using in the 3.4 thru 3.8 GHz band. Do any of you think it is smarter for us to abandon the global scale afforded to us if we adopt WiMax in 3.65? I am surprised more of you are not speaking up and saying you agree with this philosophy. Dividing the camp on this will not help us as an industry. I would like to see this group, for once, accept that we need to do something together, as a group, for the common good. I think this is that opportunity. I see little reason for us to take any other course of action in 3.65 GHz. WISPs need to do something as a group to help our industry.
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
Have you actually deployed WiMax @ 3.65 and have experienced this first hand? Where can I purchase sub $350 CPE on 3.65 today? This looks more like a vendor's ad than a WISP reporting real world experiences. Lots of dangling comparatives. - Original Message - From: jeffrey thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 12:45 PM Subject: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz Since everyone was talking about wimax, thought I would throw my 3 cents in :) Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds of subscribers, our platform supports 30,000 pps ) 7. Support for multiline VOIP out of box ( UGS + 30K PPS ) 8. Sub 350 cpe shipping today ( in 100 packs, less with frame order commitments putting your cost sub 300 ) 9. Carrier class systems vs Wisp class ( True 99.999% uptime solutions available for base station equipment, reducing downtime and truck rolls ) 10. Carrier class network management systems that simplify provisioning and management of subscribers and base stations. Even if you don't choose aperto, there are many options in the market to choose from. Talk to your local reseller about your options, Such as Wireless Connections and Wirelessguys carry many products to choose from. Best Regards, Jeff Booher Aperto Networks, Inc Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:14:44 -0500, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Increased spectral efficiency Advanced antenna support (the only benefit I understand is increased signal margin) Higher likelihood of multiple vendors vs. many previous BWA technologies, though not now Eventual lower CPE cost, though not now -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP What is your opinion about the greatness of WiMax based upon? - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I believe that WiMax is great... greater than equipment we currently use. I just don't use it at this time because of the cost. I also don't buy into a lot of the hype people (press, manufacturers, vendors, others) are pushing. I had a project that required 10 meg of synchronous, committed bandwidth per customer. I was told (by more than one group) because of the WiMax magic, I could put 2 - 3 customers on equipment capable of 23 megs. Sorry, you simply cannot put 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound box, no matter the magic. Other than Mikrotik, only the AN-80i would have been worth it. I do appreciate the FCC's requirement of equipment getting along with dissimilar equipment. Who knows when we'll have another Canopy or Tsunami introduced that just doesn't play well with others. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I do not think we should build our networks for the sole purpose of suckering, err, selling to someone else. I do believe that I want anything I build to have value in the event I do sell. That is not suckering anyone. Why not build something that holds value or appreciates in value? I know a future plan for WISPs to build WiMax networks in 3.65 would result in better networks, better valuations for WISPs and better economies of scale. Leaning on 802.11 further is just not the plan we should be using for new bands and new opportunities like we have in 3650. We have a chance to build something greater than we have now. WiMax is what the rest of the world is already using in the 3.4 thru 3.8 GHz band. Do any of you think it is smarter for us
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
It would be great if this worked for everyone, everywhere. Still vendors are missing the point in many cases. Every place does NOT have a potential for 1000 subs (there is not a 1000 homes in the town I live), nor is every place FLAT that can be reached with service for 1000 subs. I have 4 900 Mhz AP's on 4 seperate towers just to cover 150 people in one county we service. I could not cover that many with 4 of your 3.65Ghz, too many hills. Build me an AP that I can buy with licenses for a certain amount of subscribers. Charge me less than $10,000(or whatever yours cost, it will definately be higher than my 900Mhz AP) for that AP, then I will buy into your 3.65. The vendors are taking the same stance as the FCC on these rural areas, forget about them...no money to be made there. Hey even rural folks need broadband too, after all we are people just like in the big cities...only thing is, it doesn't take us an hour or longer to get to work everyday. :) Scott -- Original Message -- From: jeffrey thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2008 11:45:08 -0700 Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same Aperto Networks, Inc Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:14:44 -0500, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Increased spectral efficiency Advanced antenna support (the only benefit I understand is increased signal margin) Higher likelihood of multiple vendors vs. many previous BWA technologies, though not now Eventual lower CPE cost, though not now -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP What is your opinion about the greatness of WiMax based upon? - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I believe that WiMax is great... greater than equipment we currently use. I just don't use it at this time because of the cost. I also don't buy into a lot of the hype people (press, manufacturers, vendors, others) are pushing. I had a project that required 10 meg of synchronous, committed bandwidth per customer. I was told (by more than one group) because of the WiMax magic, I could put 2 - 3 customers on equipment capable of 23 megs. Sorry, you simply cannot put 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound box, no matter the magic. Other than Mikrotik, only the AN-80i would have been worth it. I do appreciate the FCC's requirement of equipment getting along with dissimilar equipment. Who knows when we'll have another Canopy or Tsunami introduced that just doesn't play well with others. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I do not think we should build our networks for the sole purpose of suckering, err, selling to someone else. I do believe that I want anything I build to have value in the event I do sell. That is not suckering anyone. Why not build something that holds value or appreciates in value? I know a future plan for WISPs to build WiMax networks in 3.65 would result in better networks, better valuations for WISPs and better economies of scale. Leaning on 802.11 further is just not the plan we should be using for new bands and new opportunities like we have in 3650. We have a chance to build something greater than we have now. WiMax is what the rest of the world is already using in the 3.4 thru 3.8 GHz band. Do any of you think it is smarter for us to abandon the global scale afforded to us if we adopt WiMax in 3.65? I am surprised more of you are not speaking up and saying you agree with this philosophy. Dividing the camp on this will not help us as an industry. I would like to see this group, for once, accept that we need to do something together, as a group, for the common good. I think this is that opportunity. I see little reason for us to take any other course of action in 3.65 GHz. WISPs need to do something as a group to help our industry. WiMax in 3.65 is that
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
I completely disagree with you on this topic. 3.65 makes a great play in a rural setting. I have spoken with many different groups who are capitalizing exactly on what benefits this frequency space offers in these environments. The price tags are not as high as you think, and the return on it is far greater than just how quickly your money comes back in. The ability to provide high bandwidth services in a space where you can control the QoS and give your end-users the ability (soon) to choose their own client device, at least to me, makes more sense than using a lightweight product like 900. As fas as battling terrain changes, look again at the nLOS and NLOS characteristics of 3.65 .. not to mention mobility and the self-install CPE. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
Drew, Are you drawing your conclusions based on 3.65 deployments in other parts of the world? I ask because it's hard to imagine that there are already enough 3.65 deployments in the U.S. to draw all your conclusions. Also, physics is still physics. Even given advanced antenna systems, nLOS and NLOS performance at 3.65 is still going to be limited by hills and trees. No matter how advanced the APs and antenna systems, I find it very hard to believe that 3.65 is going to approach the performance of 900 MHz inside of (or on the other side of) a forested area. jack Drew Lentz wrote: I completely disagree with you on this topic. 3.65 makes a great play in a rural setting. I have spoken with many different groups who are capitalizing exactly on what benefits this frequency space offers in these environments. The price tags are not as high as you think, and the return on it is far greater than just how quickly your money comes back in. The ability to provide high bandwidth services in a space where you can control the QoS and give your end-users the ability (soon) to choose their own client device, at least to me, makes more sense than using a lightweight product like 900. As fas as battling terrain changes, look again at the nLOS and NLOS characteristics of 3.65 .. not to mention mobility and the self-install CPE. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Vendor-Neutral Wireless Design-Training-Troubleshooting-Consulting FCC License # PG-12-25133 Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
I totally agree. I am planning to deploy 3.65 in this area and will be one of the first if not the first. If there is a plethora of real life experience with this band with the existing products, I am all ears. But so far, I don't know of any actual WiMax 802.16d or e equipment deployments in this band. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that I am ignorant of its existence. And for the NLOS prognostications, we have heard that all that before from others. Generally you hear stuff like that from sales folks who believe puffery to be a perfectly legit way to promote product. - Original Message - From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz Drew, Are you drawing your conclusions based on 3.65 deployments in other parts of the world? I ask because it's hard to imagine that there are already enough 3.65 deployments in the U.S. to draw all your conclusions. Also, physics is still physics. Even given advanced antenna systems, nLOS and NLOS performance at 3.65 is still going to be limited by hills and trees. No matter how advanced the APs and antenna systems, I find it very hard to believe that 3.65 is going to approach the performance of 900 MHz inside of (or on the other side of) a forested area. jack Drew Lentz wrote: I completely disagree with you on this topic. 3.65 makes a great play in a rural setting. I have spoken with many different groups who are capitalizing exactly on what benefits this frequency space offers in these environments. The price tags are not as high as you think, and the return on it is far greater than just how quickly your money comes back in. The ability to provide high bandwidth services in a space where you can control the QoS and give your end-users the ability (soon) to choose their own client device, at least to me, makes more sense than using a lightweight product like 900. As fas as battling terrain changes, look again at the nLOS and NLOS characteristics of 3.65 .. not to mention mobility and the self-install CPE. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Vendor-Neutral Wireless Design-Training-Troubleshooting-Consulting FCC License # PG-12-25133 Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
We've got a Redline system with NLOS indoor mount at .75 miles. We did drive tests out to a mile NLOS, through trees, and got anywhere between 2-3Mbps at the lowest modulation. We plan to go live with the product this month... As soon as we get our routing situation fixed. On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I totally agree. I am planning to deploy 3.65 in this area and will be one of the first if not the first. If there is a plethora of real life experience with this band with the existing products, I am all ears. But so far, I don't know of any actual WiMax 802.16d or e equipment deployments in this band. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that I am ignorant of its existence. And for the NLOS prognostications, we have heard that all that before from others. Generally you hear stuff like that from sales folks who believe puffery to be a perfectly legit way to promote product. - Original Message - From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz Drew, Are you drawing your conclusions based on 3.65 deployments in other parts of the world? I ask because it's hard to imagine that there are already enough 3.65 deployments in the U.S. to draw all your conclusions. Also, physics is still physics. Even given advanced antenna systems, nLOS and NLOS performance at 3.65 is still going to be limited by hills and trees. No matter how advanced the APs and antenna systems, I find it very hard to believe that 3.65 is going to approach the performance of 900 MHz inside of (or on the other side of) a forested area. jack Drew Lentz wrote: I completely disagree with you on this topic. 3.65 makes a great play in a rural setting. I have spoken with many different groups who are capitalizing exactly on what benefits this frequency space offers in these environments. The price tags are not as high as you think, and the return on it is far greater than just how quickly your money comes back in. The ability to provide high bandwidth services in a space where you can control the QoS and give your end-users the ability (soon) to choose their own client device, at least to me, makes more sense than using a lightweight product like 900. As fas as battling terrain changes, look again at the nLOS and NLOS characteristics of 3.65 .. not to mention mobility and the self-install CPE. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Vendor-Neutral Wireless Design-Training-Troubleshooting-Consulting FCC License # PG-12-25133 Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John M. McDowell Boonlink Communications 307 Grand Ave NW Fort Payne, AL 35967 256.844.9932 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.boonlink.com This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy, re-transmit, or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained in the message. If you have received the message in error, please advise the sender by reply e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED], and delete the message. E-mail communication is highly susceptible to spoofing, spamming, and other tampering, some of which may be harmful to your computer. If you are concerned about the authenticity of the message or the source, please contact the sender directly. WISPA
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
Please give us regular updates. I need one PmP system to go 20 miles (LOS). Not sure Redline will do that at any speeds that are greater than Canopy. At 2-3 miles we get 4 Mbps through trees with Canopy. - Original Message - From: John McDowell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz We've got a Redline system with NLOS indoor mount at .75 miles. We did drive tests out to a mile NLOS, through trees, and got anywhere between 2-3Mbps at the lowest modulation. We plan to go live with the product this month... As soon as we get our routing situation fixed. On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I totally agree. I am planning to deploy 3.65 in this area and will be one of the first if not the first. If there is a plethora of real life experience with this band with the existing products, I am all ears. But so far, I don't know of any actual WiMax 802.16d or e equipment deployments in this band. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that I am ignorant of its existence. And for the NLOS prognostications, we have heard that all that before from others. Generally you hear stuff like that from sales folks who believe puffery to be a perfectly legit way to promote product. - Original Message - From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz Drew, Are you drawing your conclusions based on 3.65 deployments in other parts of the world? I ask because it's hard to imagine that there are already enough 3.65 deployments in the U.S. to draw all your conclusions. Also, physics is still physics. Even given advanced antenna systems, nLOS and NLOS performance at 3.65 is still going to be limited by hills and trees. No matter how advanced the APs and antenna systems, I find it very hard to believe that 3.65 is going to approach the performance of 900 MHz inside of (or on the other side of) a forested area. jack Drew Lentz wrote: I completely disagree with you on this topic. 3.65 makes a great play in a rural setting. I have spoken with many different groups who are capitalizing exactly on what benefits this frequency space offers in these environments. The price tags are not as high as you think, and the return on it is far greater than just how quickly your money comes back in. The ability to provide high bandwidth services in a space where you can control the QoS and give your end-users the ability (soon) to choose their own client device, at least to me, makes more sense than using a lightweight product like 900. As fas as battling terrain changes, look again at the nLOS and NLOS characteristics of 3.65 .. not to mention mobility and the self-install CPE. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Vendor-Neutral Wireless Design-Training-Troubleshooting-Consulting FCC License # PG-12-25133 Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John M. McDowell Boonlink Communications 307 Grand Ave NW Fort Payne, AL 35967 256.844.9932 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.boonlink.com This message contains information which may be confidential and privileged. Unless you are the addressee (or authorized to receive for the addressee), you may not use, copy, re-transmit, or disclose to anyone the message or any information contained
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
Multiple vendors, but are any of them interoperable? I don't believe they are. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: jeffrey thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 1:45 PM Subject: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz Since everyone was talking about wimax, thought I would throw my 3 cents in :) Benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz 1. Spectral efficiency ( 4.85 gross bp/hz ) On a six sector configuration with only 25mhz of spectrum, you can effectively deliver approx 20mb per sector or 120 mb / per pop, 240 mb when all 50 mhz is supported. Support for thousands of subscribers is possible off the same BSU. 2. multiple vendor support ( currently you have Redline, Aperto, Airspan, Alvarion, all with FCC approved equipment ) 3. Better RF performance ( even with siso systems ) 4. NLOS performance ( OFDM+OFDMA = More difficult shots obtain link ) 5. Better QOS support, and service flows ( UGS, NRTPS, ETC can be ) 6. Greater scalablity ( Single sector can support hundreds of subscribers, our platform supports 30,000 pps ) 7. Support for multiline VOIP out of box ( UGS + 30K PPS ) 8. Sub 350 cpe shipping today ( in 100 packs, less with frame order commitments putting your cost sub 300 ) 9. Carrier class systems vs Wisp class ( True 99.999% uptime solutions available for base station equipment, reducing downtime and truck rolls ) 10. Carrier class network management systems that simplify provisioning and management of subscribers and base stations. Even if you don't choose aperto, there are many options in the market to choose from. Talk to your local reseller about your options, Such as Wireless Connections and Wirelessguys carry many products to choose from. Best Regards, Jeff Booher Aperto Networks, Inc Channel Manager, North America www.apertonet.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] 24/7: 206-455-4950 On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 10:14:44 -0500, Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Increased spectral efficiency Advanced antenna support (the only benefit I understand is increased signal margin) Higher likelihood of multiple vendors vs. many previous BWA technologies, though not now Eventual lower CPE cost, though not now -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 8:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP What is your opinion about the greatness of WiMax based upon? - Original Message - From: Mike Hammett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, July 04, 2008 7:19 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I believe that WiMax is great... greater than equipment we currently use. I just don't use it at this time because of the cost. I also don't buy into a lot of the hype people (press, manufacturers, vendors, others) are pushing. I had a project that required 10 meg of synchronous, committed bandwidth per customer. I was told (by more than one group) because of the WiMax magic, I could put 2 - 3 customers on equipment capable of 23 megs. Sorry, you simply cannot put 10 pounds of shit in a 5 pound box, no matter the magic. Other than Mikrotik, only the AN-80i would have been worth it. I do appreciate the FCC's requirement of equipment getting along with dissimilar equipment. Who knows when we'll have another Canopy or Tsunami introduced that just doesn't play well with others. -- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Update from the FCC on 3.65Ghz and CBP I do not think we should build our networks for the sole purpose of suckering, err, selling to someone else. I do believe that I want anything I build to have value in the event I do sell. That is not suckering anyone. Why not build something that holds value or appreciates in value? I know a future plan for WISPs to build WiMax networks in 3.65 would result in better networks, better valuations for WISPs and better economies of scale. Leaning on 802.11 further is just not the plan we should be using for new bands and new opportunities like we have in 3650. We have a chance to build something greater than we have now. WiMax is what the rest of the world is already using in the 3.4 thru 3.8 GHz band. Do any of you think it is smarter for us to abandon the global scale afforded to us if we adopt WiMax in 3.65? I am surprised
Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz
We'll do Chuck On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please give us regular updates. I need one PmP system to go 20 miles (LOS). Not sure Redline will do that at any speeds that are greater than Canopy. At 2-3 miles we get 4 Mbps through trees with Canopy. - Original Message - From: John McDowell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 8:05 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz We've got a Redline system with NLOS indoor mount at .75 miles. We did drive tests out to a mile NLOS, through trees, and got anywhere between 2-3Mbps at the lowest modulation. We plan to go live with the product this month... As soon as we get our routing situation fixed. On Sun, Jul 6, 2008 at 9:00 PM, Chuck McCown - 3 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I totally agree. I am planning to deploy 3.65 in this area and will be one of the first if not the first. If there is a plethora of real life experience with this band with the existing products, I am all ears. But so far, I don't know of any actual WiMax 802.16d or e equipment deployments in this band. Not saying it doesn't exist, just that I am ignorant of its existence. And for the NLOS prognostications, we have heard that all that before from others. Generally you hear stuff like that from sales folks who believe puffery to be a perfectly legit way to promote product. - Original Message - From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2008 7:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] top 10 benefits of Wimax in 3.65ghz Drew, Are you drawing your conclusions based on 3.65 deployments in other parts of the world? I ask because it's hard to imagine that there are already enough 3.65 deployments in the U.S. to draw all your conclusions. Also, physics is still physics. Even given advanced antenna systems, nLOS and NLOS performance at 3.65 is still going to be limited by hills and trees. No matter how advanced the APs and antenna systems, I find it very hard to believe that 3.65 is going to approach the performance of 900 MHz inside of (or on the other side of) a forested area. jack Drew Lentz wrote: I completely disagree with you on this topic. 3.65 makes a great play in a rural setting. I have spoken with many different groups who are capitalizing exactly on what benefits this frequency space offers in these environments. The price tags are not as high as you think, and the return on it is far greater than just how quickly your money comes back in. The ability to provide high bandwidth services in a space where you can control the QoS and give your end-users the ability (soon) to choose their own client device, at least to me, makes more sense than using a lightweight product like 900. As fas as battling terrain changes, look again at the nLOS and NLOS characteristics of 3.65 .. not to mention mobility and the self-install CPE. -d WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Cisco Press Author - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs Vendor-Neutral Wireless Design-Training-Troubleshooting-Consulting FCC License # PG-12-25133 Profile http://www.linkedin.com/in/jackunger Phone 818-227-4220 Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- John M. McDowell Boonlink Communications 307 Grand Ave NW Fort Payne, AL 35967 256.844.9932 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.boonlink.com This message contains
