Re: [WISPA] Why not offer gigabit internet?
My company does offer it but the concerns I had are: What do you do with the customer who actually uses it continuously? Do you put caps on usage (and what does that do to your ability to sell it)? Will it hurt you pricing margin for business customers? How do you justify the price difference between residential and business? Where do you draw the line between residential and business usage? What pricing pressure does this put on your lower speed plans? Can your infrastructure and oversubscription deliver to multiple gigabit customers at peak times? Mark > On Feb 19, 2018, at 7:18 AM, David Joneswrote: > > Lets say you have a 20GB+ Backbone, FTTx or a good working 60ghz radio > solution that can get gigabit to the premises. Why would you not offer a > gigabit package? > > I see several companies that have the capability of getting gigabit to the > customers but not ever offering gigabit... I see 50,100,150, 200 but not > more. What is the business reason for not offering a gig when you can on the > infrastructure? > > -- > David Jones > NGL Connection > 307-288-5491 ext 702 > ___ > Wireless mailing list > Wireless@wispa.org > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
[WISPA] Why not offer gigabit internet?
Lets say you have a 20GB+ Backbone, FTTx or a good working 60ghz radio solution that can get gigabit to the premises. Why would you not offer a gigabit package? I see several companies that have the capability of getting gigabit to the customers but not ever offering gigabit... I see 50,100,150, 200 but not more. What is the business reason for not offering a gig when you can on the infrastructure? -- David Jones NGL Connection 307-288-5491 ext 702 ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
[WISPA] Why is GoPro sponsoring this irresponsable Crap?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3q3ZC5fcnY Gino A. Villarini President Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. www.aeronetpr.com @aeronetpr ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Why is GoPro sponsoring this irresponsable Crap?
Yea… let see the video when he hits the guy wire and gets beheaded ! Gino A. Villarini President Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. www.aeronetpr.com @aeronetpr From: Zach Mann zma...@gmail.commailto:zma...@gmail.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Date: Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 12:18 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.orgmailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why is GoPro sponsoring this irresponsable Crap? BASE jumping Gino :) On Saturday, January 10, 2015, Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.commailto:g...@aeronetpr.com wrote: GoPro: 9 Frontflips Off A Towerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3q3ZC5fcnY Gino A. Villarini President Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. www.aeronetpr.comhttp://www.aeronetpr.com @aeronetpr ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Why is GoPro sponsoring this irresponsable Crap?
BASE jumping Gino :) On Saturday, January 10, 2015, Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com wrote: GoPro: 9 Frontflips Off A Tower https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3q3ZC5fcnY Gino A. Villarini President Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. www.aeronetpr.com @aeronetpr ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Why is GoPro sponsoring this irresponsable Crap?
Be a hero! Is it even possible the tower owner gave them permission to do that? Gino Villarini wrote: Yea let see the video when he hits the guy wire and gets beheaded ! Gino A. Villarini President Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. www.aeronetpr.com @aeronetpr From: Zach Mann zma...@gmail.com mailto:zma...@gmail.com Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Date: Saturday, January 10, 2015 at 12:18 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org mailto:wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why is GoPro sponsoring this irresponsable Crap? BASE jumping Gino :) On Saturday, January 10, 2015, Gino Villarini g...@aeronetpr.com mailto:g...@aeronetpr.com wrote: GoPro: 9 Frontflips Off A Tower https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3q3ZC5fcnY Gino A. Villarini President Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. www.aeronetpr.com http://www.aeronetpr.com @aeronetpr ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless ___ Wireless mailing list Wireless@wispa.org http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
[WISPA] Why you should always encrypt your smartphone
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/guides/2011/01/why-you-should-always-encrypt-your-smartphone.ars?utm_source=google%20gmailutm_medium=social-mediautm_campaign=addtoany -- -RickG WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.. And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos? Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! Bret Tom Sharples wrote: I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The fix was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.. And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos? Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! Bret Tom Sharples wrote: I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The fix was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With that though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years. -- Original Message -- From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600 I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.. And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos? Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! Bret Tom Sharples wrote: I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The fix was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
Tom, When you make the claim that wireless has more uptime than fiber, where do you base those facts from and what types of fiber deployments are you comparing it to? While I believe wireless is a great thing, one has to wonder why a company who's name was MCI (Microwave Communications Incorporated) eventually switched everything to fiber? I helped buy a bunch of their old microwave tower sites after they were decommissioned. They built them for capacity and did everything right. It just seems that eventually the larger WISP's will need to consider the path that MCI took over time and wonder if they won't evolve along a similar path. Now their failure was not due to their choice of fiber over wireless and that's another story altogether. Fiber deployments have been commonplace between telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they have some of the better reliability figures over any technology. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.. And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos? Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! Bret Tom Sharples wrote: I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The fix was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
Our backbone fiber has been down 2-3 times over 3 years. One time was so that they could upgrade the Fiber Switches, and the other times we were only down a minute or two. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Pierce Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:16 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With that though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years. -- Original Message -- From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600 I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.. And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos? Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! Bret Tom Sharples wrote: I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The fix was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
I would agree in a heartbeat...we've actually won customers because of outages with DS3's and T1's that were run on fiber. When the historical ice storm came through New England just over a year ago, we had 100% uptime with our infrastructure while Fairpoint and Comcast was down all over the place including their fiber runs. Stuart Pierce wrote: I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With that though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years. -- Original Message -- From: "Mike Hammett" wispawirel...@ics-il.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600 I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: "Tom DeReggi" wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is "you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.". And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? "Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos?" Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! Bret Tom Sharples wrote: I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The "fix" was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer" o...@odessaoffice.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business accou
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
Brian Webster wrote: Fiber deployments have been commonplace between telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they have some of the better reliability figures over any technology. Sure, because they are running a SONET network and fiber breaks are rather common, but when you have a secondary path then you don't hear about it. Build a wireless infrastructure the same way with redundancy and you'll have the same uptime. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
Exactly. The terms wireless and fiber are too broad to make any valid reliability comparison without more specifics. Comparing a licensed point to point microwave system with redundant paths, spatial diversity, standby power, and a tower structure rated to 150 MPH to an aerial fiber strand running through the woods in northeast ice storm territory would lead one to believe that wireless is the more reliable technology. Comparing a 2.4 GHz 802.11 link with grid antennas shooting some trees in icy territory to a SONET ring connecting two metro area datacenters would lead one to believe that fiber is the more reliable technology. Unfortunately, this distinction is not made by the general public, and it makes the sales process for business grade fixed wireless services more difficult. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Bret Clark wrote: Brian Webster wrote: Fiber deployments have been commonplace between telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they have some of the better reliability figures over any technology. Sure, because they are running a SONET network and fiber breaks are rather common, but when you have a secondary path then you don't hear about it. Build a wireless infrastructure the same way with redundancy and you'll have the same uptime. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
Agreed, Patrick. As a business only provider many of our customers that bring in a 10-50-100Mbps or higher microwave connection in from us are doing so to complement their existing fiber connection(s). As time progresses some of those customers end up favoring our microwave connection over their fiber connection. Sometimes it's because we're better peered and have fewer hops or lower latency other times it's simply because we have fewer points of failure and therefore our availability is higher. It all comes back to those three ever important sticking points: Location - Location - Location Best, Brad -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Shoemaker Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:46 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Exactly. The terms wireless and fiber are too broad to make any valid reliability comparison without more specifics. Comparing a licensed point to point microwave system with redundant paths, spatial diversity, standby power, and a tower structure rated to 150 MPH to an aerial fiber strand running through the woods in northeast ice storm territory would lead one to believe that wireless is the more reliable technology. Comparing a 2.4 GHz 802.11 link with grid antennas shooting some trees in icy territory to a SONET ring connecting two metro area datacenters would lead one to believe that fiber is the more reliable technology. Unfortunately, this distinction is not made by the general public, and it makes the sales process for business grade fixed wireless services more difficult. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Bret Clark wrote: Brian Webster wrote: Fiber deployments have been commonplace between telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they have some of the better reliability figures over any technology. Sure, because they are running a SONET network and fiber breaks are rather common, but when you have a secondary path then you don't hear about it. Build a wireless infrastructure the same way with redundancy and you'll have the same uptime. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
a hickup for 5 years. The bottom line is, IF I can get a wireless link between two points, and the capacity I need does not exceed capabilty of Wireless, I will ALWAYS choose Wireless for better uptime. Fiber is good when the capacity exceeds wireless's. Fiber is good if it has a shorter number of Hops than Wireless does. Wireless backhaul tends to develop undesirable packetloss if the number of hops get to large. We try to keep our Core Wireless transport/backhaul HOPs under 3. But if Line-of-sight can be acheived, that gives a 30-60 mile radius that can best be served with Wireless backhaul for small providers, that dont expect huge capacities. A 300mbps wireless backhaul is more capacity than most small WISPs ever need, to achieve good ROI.. Note that I did not say quality. I said Reliabilty, meaning uptime and repair time. Wireless is also less expensive, I have never once seen a fiber carrier quote a lower cost per mb than a Wireless provider's lease payment to build their own, IF quote was for something like a tower site, where there were not numerous fiber carriers competing to that site location. IF I could get Dark Fiber cariers to sell me Dark Fiber as cheap as Metro E, with dedicated uninhibited paths dedicated to me extending 20 miles a hop, I could build Fiber to be more reliable than wireless, But its not cost effective to buy Dark Fiber in most cases. They want 5x more for Dark Fiber because of the opportunity cost. Dark Fiber is often priced to be not worth it unless pushing 10GB or more. As a matter of fact, IF I did a FTTH deployment, I'd feel more comfortable feeding it with a 300mb Wireless link, for better uptime. Because I'd know it would be more than enough capacity considering oversubscription. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brian Webster bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:18 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Tom, When you make the claim that wireless has more uptime than fiber, where do you base those facts from and what types of fiber deployments are you comparing it to? While I believe wireless is a great thing, one has to wonder why a company who's name was MCI (Microwave Communications Incorporated) eventually switched everything to fiber? I helped buy a bunch of their old microwave tower sites after they were decommissioned. They built them for capacity and did everything right. It just seems that eventually the larger WISP's will need to consider the path that MCI took over time and wonder if they won't evolve along a similar path. Now their failure was not due to their choice of fiber over wireless and that's another story altogether. Fiber deployments have been commonplace between telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they have some of the better reliability figures over any technology. Thank You, Brian Webster -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]on Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 8:40 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.. And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos? Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
The thing is there are cases or palces where Wireless cant be made reliable for a specific situations that limit that location. People will remember those rare cases and associate them with Wireless in general, without understanding that taht is a different situation and not the norm. People blaim Wireless or the wireless provider for a lot, but its rarely the Wireless's fault. You'd also be surprised how often Sonet Rings wont properly route the other direction around the ring, when a failure occurs, based on the type of failure. The Fiber Ring is a physical redundancy method, but it doesn't mean that the intelligence part over top it will properly direct the traffic. Its also hard to get a fiber carrier to truthfully disclose the full inner workings of their network, for the buyer to verify a claimed redundant path will truly offer full redundancy. The only way to know for sure, and guarantee it wont change over time, is to do it yourself, or work with someone small enough who is not afraid to show the proof. For example, for some of my customers, I'll map out hop per hop the path their data will go both primary and backup path. I'm not saying I give redunancy ever, because there are many places my network is not redundant. But I could built it redundant and PROVE IT, when customers were willing to pay for that. For Fiber,. If I want guaranteed redundant Fiber transport paths, they will charge me for two circuits, double the price. And I could get better diversity if I jsut deployed two wireless links to diverse paths. So To compare reliabilty of Wireless to Fiber, its really only an apples to apples comparison if we compare a single wireless link to a non-redundant single fiber path. For example, a Wireless ring could jsut as equally be created to compare against a Sonet ring. At the end of the day, the only thing Fiber gives us is more capacity when that capacity is actually needed. Unless of course, LOS cant be achieved, or distance to long for the technology. But the worst travisty in public perception is that the public often associates Wireless with the lowest technology capabilty. Fixed PTP wireless should NOT be bundled into the same category as PtMP Wifi. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Patrick Shoemaker shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:45 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Exactly. The terms wireless and fiber are too broad to make any valid reliability comparison without more specifics. Comparing a licensed point to point microwave system with redundant paths, spatial diversity, standby power, and a tower structure rated to 150 MPH to an aerial fiber strand running through the woods in northeast ice storm territory would lead one to believe that wireless is the more reliable technology. Comparing a 2.4 GHz 802.11 link with grid antennas shooting some trees in icy territory to a SONET ring connecting two metro area datacenters would lead one to believe that fiber is the more reliable technology. Unfortunately, this distinction is not made by the general public, and it makes the sales process for business grade fixed wireless services more difficult. Patrick Shoemaker Vector Data Systems LLC shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com office: (301) 358-1690 x36 http://www.vectordatasystems.com Bret Clark wrote: Brian Webster wrote: Fiber deployments have been commonplace between telephone switches for years now and I have never heard about reliability issues and/or downtime problems with the fiber. Not that they don't happen but when you average their uptime to their outages, I would think they have some of the better reliability figures over any technology. Sure, because they are running a SONET network and fiber breaks are rather common, but when you have a secondary path then you don't hear about it. Build a wireless infrastructure the same way with redundancy and you'll have the same uptime. WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
Fiber doesn't suffer from interference or have a low number of frequencies you can use at one location. Richey -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Stuart Pierce Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:16 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With that though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years. -- Original Message -- From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600 I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.. And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos? Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! Bret Tom Sharples wrote: I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The fix was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
I am planning to have access to fiber throughout an area that's probably 3x to 4x my current coverage area. I'll build my network around that fiber. However, I will retain wireless PtP links for redundancy. That cuts down on the need to consume valuable spectrum for primary backhaul links. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 9:48 AM To: bwebs...@wirelessmapping.com; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Let me clarify. I'm referring to Metro-E deployment. I'm not refering to the physical medium glass filled wire, which of course has a huge long reliable life. Metro-E typically runs from commercial building to commercial building. Each Hop is a potential failure point. Metro-E tends to be a Sequential or In-Series deployment, where there are many potential failure points between Start and End Point of a desired link. Most Metro-E Deployments whether Layer3 or Layer2, tend to terminate everything at the end of the line at a central place, so there is often much shared infrastructure on the way to the far end.infrastructure. The fact that Fiber can extend in 20-40 mile incrememnts without power is irrelevent when its most cost viable for Metro-E providers to stop at each building along the path on the way. What Fiber Providers cant control (no better than us), is the rules and decissions Building Owners need to make to maintain their building and power. For example, recently, there was a water leak in a building, the Building protocol was Turn off power to the electrical rooms in the building until leak fixed. The building owner could care less that the Fiber infrastructure would be turned off, becaue they had a bigger responsibility to the maintenance and safety of their Half-Billion dollar commercial office building. So, Fiber routers got powered off and service went down. These type things happen ALL the time. At one building, it might only happen 2-3 times over 5 years, but multiply that times 20 buildings in-line path, and that becomes 40-60 outages in 5 years. With Wireless PTP, we tend to go longer distances before a hop is incurred, and minimizing the number of buildings in-line that could have an effect on whether we had power or not to our gear. If we compare RF to Light, the difference in uptiem by technology isavery insignificant amount even if Fiber better. But if we compare deployment its not so insignificant to compare wireless with 2-3 buildings inline to fiber 10-20 buildings inline. The fact is, fiber does have the ability to deploy redundant technology, but so does Wireless. And Fiber carriers bypass redundancy in many cases for the same reasons Wireless carriers do, to reduce cost, add simplicity for maintenance, and capacity planning/control. What you see happening is Fiber carriers using one fiber strand, and then putting EVERYTHING on that one strand of Fiber. They do this because they often dont own the fiber, and have to buy Dark Fiber, and they pay per strand. Fiber deployments are not automatically redundant as much as people think, when considering all networking components. For example, LAyer2, Layer3, OSPF, and BGP all have to function both waysacross all redundant paths for all customers. When there are one or two hops inline with Wireless, its so much easier and less disruptive to verify and test that redundancy doesactually work in a failure situatuation. With Fiber carriers it is to risky to test redundant configs because to many people are sharing the infrastructure and it crosses so many hops. The Fiber carriers make config mistakes. And when they share so much infrastructure, its easy to harm another customer's config, when configuring new customers. I can not give national data for all carriers deployment. BUT from our experience on our network the most reliable network components are our wireless PTP links. The largest cause is Power. One of the reasons we did not increase the uptime of our wireless towers fed by fiber was that it did no good to have power systems that gave uptimes larger than the uptime delivered by our fiber carrier's power systems. The truth is batteries fail, and nobody knows it until a failure occurs, and the 4 hour uptimes doesn't occur. The more buildings inline, the more chances one of the buildings inline is effected by a power outage somewhere. The number we use is that when one of our end users experiences an outage it is 4x more likely it is from a fiber related outage, not from our Metro Wireless back haul. I'll give a real world example, We provide wholesale to a WISP in DC. I'm estimating that they had near 8 outages in two years if not more, and all were related to fiber
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
Time Warner does offer an SLA on their Business Class. It's worked in our favor the three time its gone down in the 6 months that its been installed! Considering that, our wireless has been running five 9s to our business customers who chose us over the wired connections options. -RickG On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Stuart Pierce spie...@avolve.net wrote: I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With that though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years. -- Original Message -- From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600 I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.. And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos? Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! Bret Tom Sharples wrote: I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The fix was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
This topic got quite a bit off from Marlon's original post, but getting back to that, what I've done more than once with the local cable company is what I guess would fit in the category of social engineering, that is I imitate what I've heard their techs say when they get stumped and call in to their own tech support. When the person on the other end of their tech support answers I say level two please with an air of confidence and impatience. I get right through to someone who knows their ascii from their elbow. Greg On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 1:34 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Time Warner does offer an SLA on their Business Class. It's worked in our favor the three time its gone down in the 6 months that its been installed! Considering that, our wireless has been running five 9s to our business customers who chose us over the wired connections options. -RickG On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 9:16 AM, Stuart Pierce spie...@avolve.net wrote: I'm not sure I agree either, but wireless obviously can't be cut. With that though, our fiber hasn't been out more than twice in 5 years. -- Original Message -- From: Mike Hammett wispawirel...@ics-il.net Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2010 08:15:16 -0600 I'm not sure that I agree that wireless has higher uptime than fiber. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tom DeReggi wirelessn...@rapiddsl.net Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 7:40 AM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Agreed, Brett. I see people use business Cable all the time, UNTIL they have an outage, and then they loose all their customers feeding off it after that. If there is one Thing the Cable Cos understand it is you didn't buy a service with an SLA because we dont offer one, so we can care less if you are down for a week, read the small print.. And what can you tell your subs once it occurred? Oh I used a low cost Cable service, uh oh yeah why did I say we had better service than the Cable cos? Plus, Wireless is more reliable from an uptime perspective, than any other technology (even Fiber), so why would a WISP want to use anything other than Wireless for connectivity to a tower? Well, it is true that some Business CAble services are less expensive than a single antenna roof right fee. But I used that arguement to negotiate lower roof right fees. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bret Clark To: WISPA General List Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:49 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! Bret Tom Sharples wrote: I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The fix was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print
[WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
I take it you never took our advice to have the guts in a NEMA box outside? If you did you can at least get it working yourself... On 1/10/10, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The fix was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.132/2611 - Release Date: 01/10/10 07:35:00 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
Blah...I wouldn't rely on any telco or cable company to serve our towers. We are completely wireless between towers, even our upstream Internet links are wireless running to local Internet exchange points. That way if there is a problem we are responsible for it and we can fix it without getting the run around from a telco. I was in the CLEC business for over 10 years and if there is one thing telco's do better than anyone else is finger point! It was never their problem until you provided beyond a shadow of a doubt it was their problem and 90% of the time is was their problem to begin with! Bret Tom Sharples wrote: I found out about so-called business DSL a few years ago. We had it here (Qwest), and every three to four weeks it would go belly-up. The "fix" was that, after a day or two of dead air, Qwest would send out a tech to power-cycle the ancient and creaky Nortel neighborhood dslam. This went on for a few months, until I switched to Comcast business-class cable. That has proven to be extremely reliable, and I haven't looked back since. Tom S. - Original Message - From: "Marlon K. Schafer" o...@odessaoffice.com To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:41 PM Subject: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. "Um, I'm an hour and a half form there." "Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site." Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.132/2611 - Release Date: 01/10/10 07:35:00 WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
So lie to them, and tell them you're standing there and the DSL light is blinking. Or whatever they want to hear. That person is probably a $10/hr individual paid to follow a flow chart, and doesn't know what to do if your answers don't fall in-line with that chart. I've done this many times. Even just the other day I chatted with Dell tech support and said I need a new hard drive, it's making scraping and clunking noises in less than 5 minutes I had a new hard drive on the way, and less than 24 hours later it was installed in the machine. Had I told them what was really going on, I'd of been working with them for an hour via chat running a chkdsk and all sorts of other diagnostic tools. In all actuality, the thing was bad... I was just skipping all the mundane steps they are supposed to follow, in order to determine something I already knew. On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
When it's a DSL or cable connection I typically say I rebooted the modem and my PC is plugged into it. On 1/10/10, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: So lie to them, and tell them you're standing there and the DSL light is blinking. Or whatever they want to hear. That person is probably a $10/hr individual paid to follow a flow chart, and doesn't know what to do if your answers don't fall in-line with that chart. I've done this many times. Even just the other day I chatted with Dell tech support and said I need a new hard drive, it's making scraping and clunking noises in less than 5 minutes I had a new hard drive on the way, and less than 24 hours later it was installed in the machine. Had I told them what was really going on, I'd of been working with them for an hour via chat running a chkdsk and all sorts of other diagnostic tools. In all actuality, the thing was bad... I was just skipping all the mundane steps they are supposed to follow, in order to determine something I already knew. On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
We're rural enough that no utility pole is within 10 degrees of vertical. Both TWC cable and ATT wires swing on those poles and whistle in the wind. I have the cheapest DSL on the cheapest wireline just as a backup (auto-failover on an old Nortel router) to RoadRunner. I complained to ATT for 8 years (then SBC) about the crackling static on the wire line that caused the DSL router to recycle every 10 minutes and FAXes to look like the printer needed an ink refill. I called and called, scheduled on-site folks, and nothing. Finally, an ATT truck was working on the neighbor's phone and I asked the guy Excuse me, sir, but I have had a problem for 8 years...could you just walk over here and put your handset on my wire and listen? He said That's awful and when I asked for his name to thank him for the out-of-duty assistance, he gave it to me. The next day it was fixed. My last TWC fix was accomplished the same way...asking a truck in the neighborhood to test my line as a favor. He, however, found a pole-mounted amplifier that had an intermittently oscillating AGC that fixed all our neighborhood problems. I don't know what people do who aren't slightly technical and a bit aggressive. On the other hand, I don't know how the TWC and ATT people keep this old outdoor plant working, either. . . . J o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 5:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us When it's a DSL or cable connection I typically say I rebooted the modem and my PC is plugged into it. On 1/10/10, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: So lie to them, and tell them you're standing there and the DSL light is blinking. Or whatever they want to hear. That person is probably a $10/hr individual paid to follow a flow chart, and doesn't know what to do if your answers don't fall in-line with that chart. I've done this many times. Even just the other day I chatted with Dell tech support and said I need a new hard drive, it's making scraping and clunking noises in less than 5 minutes I had a new hard drive on the way, and less than 24 hours later it was installed in the machine. Had I told them what was really going on, I'd of been working with them for an hour via chat running a chkdsk and all sorts of other diagnostic tools. In all actuality, the thing was bad... I was just skipping all the mundane steps they are supposed to follow, in order to determine something I already knew. On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon - --- WISPA Wants You
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
I have a key to the house. It's just 1.5 hours away. The point of the whole story is crappy, ignorant support levels. marlon - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I take it you never took our advice to have the guts in a NEMA box outside? If you did you can at least get it working yourself... On 1/10/10, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
At least you have it figured out. You could be stuck with the customer unplugging your equipment leaving you no access while they go on a 2 weeks vacation... I think no one here could possibly disagree with you, though. The people on the other end of those phone calls cause brain damage. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein On Mon, Jan 11, 2010 at 12:05 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: I have a key to the house. It's just 1.5 hours away. The point of the whole story is crappy, ignorant support levels. marlon - Original Message - From: Josh Luthman j...@imaginenetworksllc.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 1:47 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us I take it you never took our advice to have the guts in a NEMA box outside? If you did you can at least get it working yourself... On 1/10/10, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.com wrote: I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. --- Albert Einstein WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA
Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us
A reboot of all hardware at the site fixed the problem. I'm guessing that a power outage (as reported by the customers) caused something to go haywire. Looks like I have to install another auto reboot device. Normally these folks are home. This is the first year they've flown south. marlon - Original Message - From: Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, January 10, 2010 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the telco's will never be true competitors to us So lie to them, and tell them you're standing there and the DSL light is blinking. Or whatever they want to hear. That person is probably a $10/hr individual paid to follow a flow chart, and doesn't know what to do if your answers don't fall in-line with that chart. I've done this many times. Even just the other day I chatted with Dell tech support and said I need a new hard drive, it's making scraping and clunking noises in less than 5 minutes I had a new hard drive on the way, and less than 24 hours later it was installed in the machine. Had I told them what was really going on, I'd of been working with them for an hour via chat running a chkdsk and all sorts of other diagnostic tools. In all actuality, the thing was bad... I was just skipping all the mundane steps they are supposed to follow, in order to determine something I already knew. On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: I have a tower down. It's fed by a *business* grade DSL link. Can't get to the main router at that local. So I log onto the Century Tel (century link nowadays) web site go find a phone number for tech support. IF there is a phone number on their Microsoft Bing cloan of a web site, I couldn't find it. So, I decided to try the online chat thingy. Up pops a page with a spot for a the username, phone number and zip code. Naturally, I put the right things in the boxes. Only to get an error. So I tried again, and again. Finally I actually READ what the smallish print said you can ONLY put in ONE of the fields, not all of them. Hate to allow any answer to work rather than make people only fill in one field where they usually have to fill in all of them. My fault for not reading the fine print, but then again, I shouldn't have to Next, I finally get a tech on the screen. Well, kinda, the web site doesn't have anything but an error at the top. But the chat part eventually came up and a tech was on the line. We quickly established that the tech support guy wasn't able to see if there was a dsl connection or not. ug So, he gave me a phone number for tech support. I called that number only to sit on hold for a while (not t bad though) and then find out that that wasn't the right number for a business account. Called the next number. Sat on hold a bit longer this time, but still only a few minutes. We quickly got through all of the who are you type stuff. Then the gal on the support end asked me to tell her what lights were on on the modem. Um, I'm an hour and a half form there. Well, sir, I'm unable help you unless someone is on at the site. Sigh. The home owner at this site is a snow bird and won't be home for months yet. The tech support people aren't able to tell if there is a connection or not. It's not like this is a little, rinky dink company like mine. This is a HUGE telco! Ug. They won't even try to fix a business account that I pay $1200.00 per year for. Probably even more than that. Amazing. Have a great day, I know I will. marlon WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Why not to LIVE under large towers!
http://www.break.com/index/massive-ice-chunks-fall-from-1600-feet.html Dennis M. Burgess, CCNA, MCP, A+, N+, Mikrotik Certified Consultant Partner/Senior Engineer Link Technologies, Inc. = WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
So... Can any of these phones be aquired inexpensively new from ATT, with a new signup plan? Or are they as expensive as the IPhone and other $400+ phones? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jonathan Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:54 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone ...oh, I get up to 230Kbps Internet on the laptop-to-phone-via-Bluetooth and if you get just the Cingular/ATT MediaNet plan you get unlimited Internet including that high speed GPRS (not 3G, however but for $19.95 for all you can eat, it comes in handy.) . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:46 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone I'm sold on the Nokia E61i...a thinner (very thin) and much faster version of the E61 with a MUCH better qwerty keyboard, brighter daylight-readable screen, Wi-Fi far improved, Bluetooth, SIP phone, VPN, and I get 10 full length movies on the hot-swappable microSD chip (unlike the fixed memory on the iPhone). It goes 10 days standby with a little talking and can watch 2 movies on one battery...which is, unlike the iPhone, also swappable so I take a half dozen batteries on trips for 20 movies++ before I need to recharge which can be done via USB directly or to a tiny external charger. However, for me, the best improvement over the E61 was the hotter Wi-Fi. It doesn't have GPS but the tiny Holux links to Google maps and I use it. . . . j o n a t h a n. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing) Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right there! The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well. ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of V Proffer Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525. It is good for checking out hotspots, too. ~V~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Nice. Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http
Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
Ive been looking myself, Best price so far has been $150 with a 2yr plan. With no ATT out here I think I will still hold out for a iClone. On 10/14/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So... Can any of these phones be aquired inexpensively new from ATT, with a new signup plan? Or are they as expensive as the IPhone and other $400+ phones? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jonathan Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:54 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone ...oh, I get up to 230Kbps Internet on the laptop-to-phone-via-Bluetooth and if you get just the Cingular/ATT MediaNet plan you get unlimited Internet including that high speed GPRS (not 3G, however but for $19.95 for all you can eat, it comes in handy.) . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:46 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone I'm sold on the Nokia E61i...a thinner (very thin) and much faster version of the E61 with a MUCH better qwerty keyboard, brighter daylight-readable screen, Wi-Fi far improved, Bluetooth, SIP phone, VPN, and I get 10 full length movies on the hot-swappable microSD chip (unlike the fixed memory on the iPhone). It goes 10 days standby with a little talking and can watch 2 movies on one battery...which is, unlike the iPhone, also swappable so I take a half dozen batteries on trips for 20 movies++ before I need to recharge which can be done via USB directly or to a tiny external charger. However, for me, the best improvement over the E61 was the hotter Wi-Fi. It doesn't have GPS but the tiny Holux links to Google maps and I use it. . . . j o n a t h a n. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing) Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right there! The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well. ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of V Proffer Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525. It is good for checking out hotspots, too. ~V~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Nice. Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th
Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
There are some on ebay now for $409 with no contracts. Travis Microserv Jeromie Reeves wrote: Ive been looking myself, Best price so far has been $150 with a 2yr plan. With no ATT out here I think I will still hold out for a iClone. On 10/14/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So... Can any of these phones be aquired inexpensively new from ATT, with a new signup plan? Or are they as expensive as the IPhone and other $400+ phones? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: "Jonathan Schmidt" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:54 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone ...oh, I get up to 230Kbps Internet on the laptop-to-phone-via-Bluetooth and if you get just the Cingular/ATT MediaNet plan you get unlimited Internet including that high speed GPRS (not 3G, however but for $19.95 for all you can eat, it comes in handy.) . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:46 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone I'm sold on the Nokia E61i...a thinner (very thin) and much faster version of the E61 with a MUCH better qwerty keyboard, brighter daylight-readable screen, Wi-Fi far improved, Bluetooth, SIP phone, VPN, and I get 10 full length movies on the hot-swappable microSD chip (unlike the fixed memory on the iPhone). It goes 10 days standby with a little talking and can watch 2 movies on one battery...which is, unlike the iPhone, also swappable so I take a half dozen batteries on trips for 20 movies++ before I need to recharge which can be done via USB directly or to a tiny external charger. However, for me, the best improvement over the E61 was the hotter Wi-Fi. It doesn't have GPS but the tiny Holux links to Google maps and I use it. . . . j o n a t h a n. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing) Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right there! The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well. ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of V Proffer Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525. It is good for checking out hotspots, too. ~V~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Nice. Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: "Matt Larsen - Lists" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: h
Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
Its not worth that much (to me). A P168 is half that and seams decent, I just do not jump on toys very fast anymore but with a vacation coming up I need to. On 10/14/07, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There are some on ebay now for $409 with no contracts. Travis Microserv Jeromie Reeves wrote: Ive been looking myself, Best price so far has been $150 with a 2yr plan. With no ATT out here I think I will still hold out for a iClone. On 10/14/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So... Can any of these phones be aquired inexpensively new from ATT, with a new signup plan? Or are they as expensive as the IPhone and other $400+ phones? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jonathan Schmidt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 11:54 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone ...oh, I get up to 230Kbps Internet on the laptop-to-phone-via-Bluetooth and if you get just the Cingular/ATT MediaNet plan you get unlimited Internet including that high speed GPRS (not 3G, however but for $19.95 for all you can eat, it comes in handy.) . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:46 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone I'm sold on the Nokia E61i...a thinner (very thin) and much faster version of the E61 with a MUCH better qwerty keyboard, brighter daylight-readable screen, Wi-Fi far improved, Bluetooth, SIP phone, VPN, and I get 10 full length movies on the hot-swappable microSD chip (unlike the fixed memory on the iPhone). It goes 10 days standby with a little talking and can watch 2 movies on one battery...which is, unlike the iPhone, also swappable so I take a half dozen batteries on trips for 20 movies++ before I need to recharge which can be done via USB directly or to a tiny external charger. However, for me, the best improvement over the E61 was the hotter Wi-Fi. It doesn't have GPS but the tiny Holux links to Google maps and I use it. . . . j o n a t h a n. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing) Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right there! The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well. ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of V Proffer Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525. It is good for checking out hotspots, too. ~V~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Nice. Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo
RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
...oh, I get up to 230Kbps Internet on the laptop-to-phone-via-Bluetooth and if you get just the Cingular/ATT MediaNet plan you get unlimited Internet including that high speed GPRS (not 3G, however but for $19.95 for all you can eat, it comes in handy.) . . . j o n a t h a n -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Schmidt Sent: Saturday, October 13, 2007 10:46 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone I'm sold on the Nokia E61i...a thinner (very thin) and much faster version of the E61 with a MUCH better qwerty keyboard, brighter daylight-readable screen, Wi-Fi far improved, Bluetooth, SIP phone, VPN, and I get 10 full length movies on the hot-swappable microSD chip (unlike the fixed memory on the iPhone). It goes 10 days standby with a little talking and can watch 2 movies on one battery...which is, unlike the iPhone, also swappable so I take a half dozen batteries on trips for 20 movies++ before I need to recharge which can be done via USB directly or to a tiny external charger. However, for me, the best improvement over the E61 was the hotter Wi-Fi. It doesn't have GPS but the tiny Holux links to Google maps and I use it. . . . j o n a t h a n. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of D. Ryan Spott Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing) Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right there! The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well. ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of V Proffer Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525. It is good for checking out hotspots, too. ~V~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Nice. Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.8/906 - Release Date: 7/17/2007 6:30 PM
RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525. It is good for checking out hotspots, too. ~V~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Nice. Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.8/906 - Release Date: 7/17/2007 6:30 PM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
I have one of these phones. I am pretty impressed with it so far. If you download the java based Opera you can even manage Tranzeo CPE/APs! (the iPhone crashes on the Base64/java conversion thing) Usually I carry around my Macbook to fix problems on my network when I am away from home. This fall I was able to go to the fair with my family and not lug a laptop in the car with me. It made the purchase worth it right there! The tethering to a laptop via bluetooth is nice as well. ryan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of V Proffer Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:37 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Another phone that does wifi is the cingular 8525. It is good for checking out hotspots, too. ~V~ -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 11:42 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone Nice. Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Internal Virus Database is out-of-date. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.8/906 - Release Date: 7/17/2007 6:30 PM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
Nice. Again, another phone that does more than the iPhone. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 11:39 AM Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone - Thread CLOSED!
Thread CLOSED! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007 8:43 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007 8:43 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone - Thread CLOSED!
I apologize for sending this link. I thought it was funny, but it has quite a bit of crude language and should have been thinking before I forwarded it. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Rick Harnish wrote: Thread CLOSED! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007 8:43 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007 8:43 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone - Thread CLOSED!
hehehehehehehehe roflol On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 12:00 -0600, Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: I apologize for sending this link. I thought it was funny, but it has quite a bit of crude language and should have been thinking before I forwarded it. Matt Larsen vistabeam.com Rick Harnish wrote: Thread CLOSED! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Larsen - Lists Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:40 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007 8:43 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.14.6/1061 - Release Date: 10/10/2007 8:43 AM ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Williams Locustworld Certified Mesh Engineer Mesh network design, engineering, training and consultation http://www.markw.net --- Looking for a great webhost provider? Click here. http://www.bluehost.com/track/racerx/text1 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the Nokia E70 is better than the iPhone
This is a much better reasoning as to why I do not desire an iPhone. http://blog.metasploit.com/2007/09/root-shell-in-my-pocket-and-maybe-yours.html On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 10:39 -0600, Matt Larsen - Lists wrote: FWIW, my E70 rules. It is by far the best phone I have ever used. Take that, iPhone fanboys! http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone Matt Larsen vistabeam.com ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Mark Williams Locustworld Certified Mesh Engineer Mesh network design, engineering, training and consultation http://www.markw.net --- Looking for a great webhost provider? Click here. http://www.bluehost.com/track/racerx/text1 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON ** ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA www.ispcon.com ** ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT ** ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 ** ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at http://www.ispcon.com/register.php ** WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why Customers leave
Tom and Jack, The 68% leaving from Indifference means that you aren't telling them how good you are. So when the new guy shows up, he has no idea of the record of reliability. One of the great things about selling Managed Router or Firewall or IDS service to businesses is that you can send them a report weekly or daily. This tells them regularly who you are, what you do, and how well you are doing it. It is advertising AND a report card. Many ISPs tell me that people leave - and these people never had a problem for the x number of years that they were clients. You didn't tell them. Out of sight is out of mind. Regards, Peter Jack Unger wrote: Tom DeReggi wrote: * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm I just don't believe that. Are most businesses that stupid to allow That may be what Peter is trying to get us to think about and/or address. It takes only one bad customer experience which can easily be provided by one employee who either: 1. Lacks customer skills, or 2. Who is having a bad day, or 3. Who has just been shit upon by his or her manager to sour a customer on a whole company. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] why join ... a rant
On top of al of that. You, and every other wisp and vendor should join WISPA because we ARE making an impact. We are making things better for the wisp industry. Will you agree with everything we do or stand for? Nope. Nor do I. Heck, I helped start WISPA and I strongly disagree with the billing mechanism for membership. But I'm still here, on my second stint as a board member no less. What we're doing is important, and it's working. Sure there's more to do. Much more. And there always will be more to do and different ways to do it. What's the alternative though? So nothing? participate in nothing? As a wise man once said, you can't steer a parked car. In the case of WISPA, the car is indeed moving. Slowly, but we've got the foot to the floor. If you want to help steer you'll have to get out of the trailer in back and come sit in the main cab with the rest of us that thing we can do more and better together than we can apart. I've always loved this pic. I think it fits s well. (my version of it has beer instead of cake though! hehehehe) http://www.culinary-yours.com/teamwork.jpg laters, marlon - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 11:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] why join ... a rant Peter R. wrote: I haven't joined yet either. Three reasons: (1) I would have to join as a vendor, since I am a consultant - and I can't as yet see the ROI. I can see that. If people here do not pay you enough to pay your dues then why would you join? i guess there could be an argument though that you may get more sales if the option is made available for you to openly market what you sell to WISPs. Now you have to embed your offerings within posts to try to make sure you do not spam the group. We do also offer a $100 per year Associate level membership. I am sure that is justifiable to anyone who has an interest in seeing this industry prosper. (2) I see the similarities here to another group that I belonged to ... and I don't want to go down that path again. I do not know the details and don't need to know. That is your own issue. (3) I have a real problem with joining a group where participants pick and choose what laws and regulations they will and will not follow - and try to rally people to oppose such laws. Opposing laws and promoting breaking those laws are two different things. WISPA will officially support that we should always follow the law. We will also tell people when we think that laws need opposition, reform, challenges, changes. In the future I want to see us actually play a role in removing or easing regulatory and law issues. We are trying to make CALEA compliance easier for WISPs. That does not mean we agree with everything involved in how this law is being mandated for WISPs. WISPA could and should work toward vocally supporting changes in laws when we feel they work to the detriment of our mission. Now you can argue all day about whether I am right or wrong in this viewpoint, but that is MY perspective and you cannot change that no matter how much arguing you do. You are entitled to feel however you want. WISPA is what it is. The members who pay the dues, run for office and meet with regulators, etc. decide who we are and what we stand for. The rest here are an audience who are here as guests supported by the paid members of WISPA. WISPA is here to help and our members have made the resources here possible and they deserve some level of respect for this at a minimum. Anyone who uses these resources can and should see enough value to buy into some level of membership. That is my belief and nobody will change that. :-) Let's use a real world analogy. Let's say this was a NASCAR list. And I got a speeding ticket on I-4 going 88 in a 70 when there were maybe 5 cars on that stretch of straight, flat plain, 3-lane highway. And I moan about the ticket and how unfair it was. It was entrapment. The cop was in a unmarked car hidden behind a concrete barrier. So what if I was speeding! There was no one around. Blah blah blah. It's a banal argument and a waste of bytes - and an admission of guilt. This is a public list made up of more than paid members. It is an open public forum for free thinking and censoring is no part of the plan here. Thanks, Peter @ RAD-INFO, Inc. Blair Davis wrote: On another subject Two months ago, we were ready to join WISPA. At the time, I felt that WISPA had proven its longevity and was becoming a mature voice for the WISP's. But, after the form 477 issue, FCC sticker issue, and now the CALEA issue, I'm pretty sure that I disagree with the majority of the members on what stance should be taken on these issues. That being the case, why should I still join? -- Blair Davis West Michigan Wireless ISP 269-686-8648 -- WISPA Wireless
Re: [WISPA] Why Customers leave
Interesting thought. Along those lines, try calling up past customers and asking them--you may not like the feedback, but, it should be useful. In any case, they'll likely have a better idea why they left than we will :) -Clint On 3/31/07, Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom and Jack, The 68% leaving from Indifference means that you aren't telling them how good you are. So when the new guy shows up, he has no idea of the record of reliability. One of the great things about selling Managed Router or Firewall or IDS service to businesses is that you can send them a report weekly or daily. This tells them regularly who you are, what you do, and how well you are doing it. It is advertising AND a report card. Many ISPs tell me that people leave - and these people never had a problem for the x number of years that they were clients. You didn't tell them. Out of sight is out of mind. Regards, Peter Jack Unger wrote: Tom DeReggi wrote: * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm I just don't believe that. Are most businesses that stupid to allow That may be what Peter is trying to get us to think about and/or address. It takes only one bad customer experience which can easily be provided by one employee who either: 1. Lacks customer skills, or 2. Who is having a bad day, or 3. Who has just been shit upon by his or her manager to sour a customer on a whole company. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Clint Ricker Kentnis Technologies 800.783.5753 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Why Customers leave
Why do customers leave? * 1% die * 3% move * 5% develop other relationships * 9% competitive reasons * 14% product dissatisfaction * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm Source: U.S. News and World Report What to do about it? http://www.rad-info.net/whyleave.htm -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why Customers leave
Thats a good list Peter. My broadband churn is almost 100% people dying and moving. I think it's like 2:1 moving over dying, Thank god the housing market is in the toilet. Every week I open the newspaper and see which of my customers passed away. This week I lost 2. One a broadband sub and the other a dial up sub. Aside from the fact that they are no longer paying me, it's sad to watch one's life end so suddenly. Peter R. wrote: Why do customers leave? * 1% die * 3% move * 5% develop other relationships * 9% competitive reasons * 14% product dissatisfaction * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm Source: U.S. News and World Report What to do about it? http://www.rad-info.net/whyleave.htm -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why Customers leave
Not an accurate list, it leaves off a big category. - Customer doesn't know who or what they are using, nor why. Therefore makes uninformed decisions. So lack of communication with client base I believe is one of the biggest reasons for custoemr churn. For example, customer's staff change, will result in a new decission maker not being aware of history. I believe our best most trouble free customers (that fall off the radar) are the most likely to leave. Because we forget to remind them we are there and why they chose us. * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm I just don't believe that. Are most businesses that stupid to allow that to happen? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 10:40 AM Subject: [WISPA] Why Customers leave Why do customers leave? * 1% die * 3% move * 5% develop other relationships * 9% competitive reasons * 14% product dissatisfaction * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm Source: U.S. News and World Report What to do about it? http://www.rad-info.net/whyleave.htm -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why Customers leave
Tom DeReggi wrote: Not an accurate list, it leaves off a big category. - Customer doesn't know who or what they are using, nor why. Therefore makes uninformed decisions. So lack of communication with client base I believe is one of the biggest reasons for custoemr churn. For example, customer's staff change, will result in a new decission maker not being aware of history. I believe our best most trouble free customers (that fall off the radar) are the most likely to leave. Because we forget to remind them we are there and why they chose us. * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm I just don't believe that. Are most businesses that stupid to allow That may be what Peter is trying to get us to think about and/or address. It takes only one bad customer experience which can easily be provided by one employee who either: 1. Lacks customer skills, or 2. Who is having a bad day, or 3. Who has just been shit upon by his or her manager to sour a customer on a whole company. that to happen? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, March 30, 2007 10:40 AM Subject: [WISPA] Why Customers leave Why do customers leave? * 1% die * 3% move * 5% develop other relationships * 9% competitive reasons * 14% product dissatisfaction * 68% perceived indifference by a representative of your firm Source: U.S. News and World Report What to do about it? http://www.rad-info.net/whyleave.htm -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Jack Unger ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc. FCC License # PG-12-25133 Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993 Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs True Vendor-Neutral Wireless Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting Phone (VoIP Over Broadband Wireless) 818-227-4220 www.ask-wi.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] why join ... a rant
Peter R. wrote: I haven't joined yet either. Three reasons: (1) I would have to join as a vendor, since I am a consultant - and I can't as yet see the ROI. I can see that. If people here do not pay you enough to pay your dues then why would you join? i guess there could be an argument though that you may get more sales if the option is made available for you to openly market what you sell to WISPs. Now you have to embed your offerings within posts to try to make sure you do not spam the group. We do also offer a $100 per year Associate level membership. I am sure that is justifiable to anyone who has an interest in seeing this industry prosper. (2) I see the similarities here to another group that I belonged to ... and I don't want to go down that path again. I do not know the details and don't need to know. That is your own issue. (3) I have a real problem with joining a group where participants pick and choose what laws and regulations they will and will not follow - and try to rally people to oppose such laws. Opposing laws and promoting breaking those laws are two different things. WISPA will officially support that we should always follow the law. We will also tell people when we think that laws need opposition, reform, challenges, changes. In the future I want to see us actually play a role in removing or easing regulatory and law issues. We are trying to make CALEA compliance easier for WISPs. That does not mean we agree with everything involved in how this law is being mandated for WISPs. WISPA could and should work toward vocally supporting changes in laws when we feel they work to the detriment of our mission. Now you can argue all day about whether I am right or wrong in this viewpoint, but that is MY perspective and you cannot change that no matter how much arguing you do. You are entitled to feel however you want. WISPA is what it is. The members who pay the dues, run for office and meet with regulators, etc. decide who we are and what we stand for. The rest here are an audience who are here as guests supported by the paid members of WISPA. WISPA is here to help and our members have made the resources here possible and they deserve some level of respect for this at a minimum. Anyone who uses these resources can and should see enough value to buy into some level of membership. That is my belief and nobody will change that. :-) Let's use a real world analogy. Let's say this was a NASCAR list. And I got a speeding ticket on I-4 going 88 in a 70 when there were maybe 5 cars on that stretch of straight, flat plain, 3-lane highway. And I moan about the ticket and how unfair it was. It was entrapment. The cop was in a unmarked car hidden behind a concrete barrier. So what if I was speeding! There was no one around. Blah blah blah. It's a banal argument and a waste of bytes - and an admission of guilt. This is a public list made up of more than paid members. It is an open public forum for free thinking and censoring is no part of the plan here. Thanks, Peter @ RAD-INFO, Inc. Blair Davis wrote: On another subject Two months ago, we were ready to join WISPA. At the time, I felt that WISPA had proven its longevity and was becoming a mature voice for the WISP's. But, after the form 477 issue, FCC sticker issue, and now the CALEA issue, I'm pretty sure that I disagree with the majority of the members on what stance should be taken on these issues. That being the case, why should I still join? -- Blair Davis West Michigan Wireless ISP 269-686-8648 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] why join when you disagree?
One reason would be so that your voice and opinion are heard. Maybe you and Mark can take Board seats and WISPA would take a turn towards your view of how things should be. Rarely does an ISP association represent the views of the louder minority. Since it is volunteer and made up of entrepreneur's, usually the one who donated the time gets more of the say. Or the Board members make most of the rules. (Not saying that is how it is with WISPA because I have no clue, but that IS how it is with quite a few other ISP assoc.) So, Blair, none of what WISPA has done, you agree with? Then why are you still on the list? Also, to lobby and fight takes effort, energy, time and money. And it needs someone to lead the charge. So you and Mark feel very strongly about both CALEA and form 477, why not head up to the Hill or to the FCC and state your case? Regards, Peter @ RAD-INFO, Inc. Blair Davis wrote: On another subject Two months ago, we were ready to join WISPA. At the time, I felt that WISPA had proven its longevity and was becoming a mature voice for the WISP's. But, after the form 477 issue, FCC sticker issue, and now the CALEA issue, I'm pretty sure that I disagree with the majority of the members on what stance should be taken on these issues. That being the case, why should I still join? -- Blair Davis West Michigan Wireless ISP 269-686-8648 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] why join ... a rant
I haven't joined yet either. Three reasons: (1) I would have to join as a vendor, since I am a consultant - and I can't as yet see the ROI. (2) I see the similarities here to another group that I belonged to ... and I don't want to go down that path again. (3) I have a real problem with joining a group where participants pick and choose what laws and regulations they will and will not follow - and try to rally people to oppose such laws. Now you can argue all day about whether I am right or wrong in this viewpoint, but that is MY perspective and you cannot change that no matter how much arguing you do. Let's use a real world analogy. Let's say this was a NASCAR list. And I got a speeding ticket on I-4 going 88 in a 70 when there were maybe 5 cars on that stretch of straight, flat plain, 3-lane highway. And I moan about the ticket and how unfair it was. It was entrapment. The cop was in a unmarked car hidden behind a concrete barrier. So what if I was speeding! There was no one around. Blah blah blah. It's a banal argument and a waste of bytes - and an admission of guilt. Thanks, Peter @ RAD-INFO, Inc. Blair Davis wrote: On another subject Two months ago, we were ready to join WISPA. At the time, I felt that WISPA had proven its longevity and was becoming a mature voice for the WISP's. But, after the form 477 issue, FCC sticker issue, and now the CALEA issue, I'm pretty sure that I disagree with the majority of the members on what stance should be taken on these issues. That being the case, why should I still join? -- Blair Davis West Michigan Wireless ISP 269-686-8648 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] why join when you disagree?
Peter R. wrote: So, Blair, none of what WISPA has done, you agree with? Did not say that. Then why are you still on the list? I monitor this public list, and others, to get an idea where things are going in the industry. Also, to lobby and fight takes effort, energy, time and money. And it needs someone to lead the charge. So you and Mark feel very strongly about both CALEA and form 477, why not head up to the Hill or to the FCC and state your case? I wish I could! I can't speak for Mark, but for me, time and money come to mind. Regards, Peter @ RAD-INFO, Inc. Blair Davis wrote: On another subject Two months ago, we were ready to join WISPA. At the time, I felt that WISPA had proven its longevity and was becoming a mature voice for the WISP's. But, after the form 477 issue, FCC sticker issue, and now the CALEA issue, I'm pretty sure that I disagree with the majority of the members on what stance should be taken on these issues. That being the case, why should I still join? -- Blair Davis West Michigan Wireless ISP 269-686-8648 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Why the STA George?
George, why do you have an STA application pending? What are your plans for the gear? What is the experiment you will be performing? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650, ok, so what's current status? Patrick Leary wrote: You are trying to wind me up aren't you George? :) :) Well maybe a bit, but some of us have our 3650 aps in. Just figuring your a wealth of information and I knew you would expand upon this. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(84). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?
First, lets clear things up. I already know that we are not supposed to use it as part of our network, regardless of what others might think. We have already heard someone else say other wise on a different list as part of a different organization. So, for me, it's to experiment with and to see what kinds of results I can get. I am going to use it personally in a variety of different fashions. We hired Kris months ago and we've paid him to handle our application. I'm sure we will have to alter our application now that these guys have George Patrick Leary wrote: George, why do you have an STA application pending? What are your plans for the gear? What is the experiment you will be performing? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650, ok, so what's current status? Patrick Leary wrote: You are trying to wind me up aren't you George? :) :) Well maybe a bit, but some of us have our 3650 aps in. Just figuring your a wealth of information and I knew you would expand upon this. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Why the STA George?
George, to the extent that this thread contributes to myth quashing (a never ending task in this business), it is all good, as the colloquialism goes. Be careful though. STA's are not designed for every WISP out there to discover the same thing and the body of knowledge about how 3.65 propagates is well understood. For sure in the end it is the FCC itself that issues the STA, and they choose to accept or not and Kris certainly knows what he is doing. We'll all be better off when the limbo that is this band is finally decided upon. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:08 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George? First, lets clear things up. I already know that we are not supposed to use it as part of our network, regardless of what others might think. We have already heard someone else say other wise on a different list as part of a different organization. So, for me, it's to experiment with and to see what kinds of results I can get. I am going to use it personally in a variety of different fashions. We hired Kris months ago and we've paid him to handle our application. I'm sure we will have to alter our application now that these guys have George Patrick Leary wrote: George, why do you have an STA application pending? What are your plans for the gear? What is the experiment you will be performing? Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 12:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] 3650, ok, so what's current status? Patrick Leary wrote: You are trying to wind me up aren't you George? :) :) Well maybe a bit, but some of us have our 3650 aps in. Just figuring your a wealth of information and I knew you would expand upon this. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(43). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(84). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?
It's actually a very good thread. Just think of those who heard some one else last year say they were using their for backhaul... Now they know better. These new cards, which have actually been talked about for quite some time, will help some of the guys (the RF Gearheads) to do more experimenting because they cost less than a redline, etc. Lets hope this time, the manufacturer acts responsibly and doesn't just sell them to just anyone with a cc. George Patrick Leary wrote: George, to the extent that this thread contributes to myth quashing (a never ending task in this business), it is all good, as the colloquialism goes. Be careful though. STA's are not designed for every WISP out there to discover the same thing and the body of knowledge about how 3.65 propagates is well understood. For sure in the end it is the FCC itself that issues the STA, and they choose to accept or not and Kris certainly knows what he is doing. We'll all be better off when the limbo that is this band is finally decided upon. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. Well maybe a bit, but some of us have our 3650 aps in. Just figuring your a wealth of information and I knew you would expand upon this. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Why the STA George?
... Now they know better. Alas, we can, and I always do, hope that people learn. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George? It's actually a very good thread. Just think of those who heard some one else last year say they were using their for backhaul... Now they know better. These new cards, which have actually been talked about for quite some time, will help some of the guys (the RF Gearheads) to do more experimenting because they cost less than a redline, etc. Lets hope this time, the manufacturer acts responsibly and doesn't just sell them to just anyone with a cc. George Patrick Leary wrote: George, to the extent that this thread contributes to myth quashing (a never ending task in this business), it is all good, as the colloquialism goes. Be careful though. STA's are not designed for every WISP out there to discover the same thing and the body of knowledge about how 3.65 propagates is well understood. For sure in the end it is the FCC itself that issues the STA, and they choose to accept or not and Kris certainly knows what he is doing. We'll all be better off when the limbo that is this band is finally decided upon. Patrick This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(84). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?
Patrick Leary wrote: ... Now they know better. Alas, we can, and I always do, hope that people learn. That is the whole point of these lists. To educate and help wisps understand better. What good is a dormant list? Some may think that a lot of these posts are just talk and hopefully many will see the value of the information buried in here. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?
George Rogato wrote: Lets hope this time, the manufacturer acts responsibly and doesn't just sell them to just anyone with a cc. I didn't think a radio vendor was allowed to sell a product for use with an experimental license. I thought the radio vendor could only let you use the radio for the period of the experiment and then you had to give it back. We'd had a 3.65 experimental license for over a year now and I have never been able to buy a radio for it. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Why the STA George?
That's why operator-acquired STAs are usually worked cooperatively with vendors, i.e. the vendor is looking for the operator to perform specific real world tests for the purposes of product validation, refinement, etc. Even when I've received an STA for demonstrating 3.x GHz product in a show setting I've been required to post a prominent sign that reads, and I quote: Special Conditions: (4) Alvarion shall post a sign indicating: a.) This is European equipment not for use in the USA. b.) Alvarion version will be available using an approved FCC radio frequency band. Patrick Leary AVP WISP Markets Alvarion, Inc. o: 650.314.2628 c: 760.580.0080 Vonage: 650.641.1243 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Monday, March 05, 2007 2:48 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George? George Rogato wrote: Lets hope this time, the manufacturer acts responsibly and doesn't just sell them to just anyone with a cc. I didn't think a radio vendor was allowed to sell a product for use with an experimental license. I thought the radio vendor could only let you use the radio for the period of the experiment and then you had to give it back. We'd had a 3.65 experimental license for over a year now and I have never been able to buy a radio for it. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(190). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(42). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses(84). This footnote confirms that this email message has been scanned by PineApp Mail-SeCure for the presence of malicious code, vandals computer viruses. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Why the STA George?
Patrick Leary wrote: That's why operator-acquired STAs are usually worked cooperatively with vendors, i.e. the vendor is looking for the operator to perform specific real world tests for the purposes of product validation, refinement, etc. Sure... we just had to give the radios back afterwards and no money changed hands. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY?
Yeah. And we're going to track anything of value at our hotspots how And I have small sites that use dsl as the backhaul. I'm supposed to use a $500 pc to track what? The linksys router at the site isn't going to give me jack. Marlon(509) 982-2181 Equipment sales(408) 907-6910 (Vonage) Consulting services42846865 (icq) And I run my own wisp!64.146.146.12 (net meeting)www.odessaoffice.com/wirelesswww.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson To: WISPA General List Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:25 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? Hi,You have to connect to the internet backbone somewhere (even if in multiple locations, etc.). You would simply need a $500 PC at each connection. Pretty simple.TravisMicroservMark Koskenmaki wrote: Travis, my network has no such "central" point. There is no point where my traffic passes through or can be "mirrored" to a single point at a building. In less than a year, it will all be dynamically routed via BGP, through physically diverse locations and providers, and again, traffic from the customers will not pass through any place where "logging" can be done. Nor have I any location to keep such data secure. - Original Message - From: "Travis Johnson" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? Hi, Although I am totally against this, we are already doing this (and keeping a year's worth of history). Keep in mind we move about 110Mbps of traffic average. We setup a linux box (p4/2.8ghz with 1GB of RAM and a 200GB drive) about a year ago and installed IpAudit. This single box is able to keep up with the traffic load and helps us track down customers that are infected, SPAMMING, etc. We simply mirror our main incoming port on our backbone switch to another port, and plug the IpAudit box into that port. Works great. :) Travis Microserv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why? Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network infrastructure to do this. Is WISPA lobbying against this? It will be nearly impossible for most of us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a huge expense that we can't afford. - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM Subject: [WISPA] WHY? http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rsstag=6108279subj=news Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data? George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY? ----- ooops!!!!
I still think we need to keep this discussion going for a bit. I have a question for you guys. Which do you think is better for all concerned. Do you think we should portray a false sense of security and anonymity? Do you think we should tell our customers, Hey do whatever you want online, nobody is tracking anything. Then when a customer trips up on an online resource that is a trap by the feds they get a court order and beat on us with subpoenas and the like until we give them whatever data we might have. I can tell you what I do online and on the telephone. I assume I am being monitored all the time. (No...not in that paranoid they're out to get me sort of way). Why should anyone think otherwise? It is not as if the legal system cannot listen in or watch if they really want to. All it takes is a court to approve a tap. It is not that big a deal to the legal system. I am not advocating that we help the government strip away our civil liberties. If I did not think they were part anti-Christ I would likely join and support the ACLU because our government is chiseling away at our civil liberties one by one, a piece at a time, slowly and methodically and none of us are really doing anything but watching it happen and whining about it occasionally. Just like that boiling frog analogy someone expressed on here recently (I really liked that analogy by the way). What I am saying is it would probably be a better service to our customers if we simply tell them the facts. Let them know that if they do something out of line on the Internet that there is a very good chance they will be tracked and caught. There are in fact legal efforts online setup to trap folks who are doing bad things. They exist and they catch lots of people doing bad things. I cannot help but think that part of the reason for this increase in criminal behavior is born from a false sense of security people have that they can go do things on the Internet that nobody will ever catch them or see them doing. They think they are invisible or somehow that the laws do not apply while they are online. Maybe if we warn our fellow citizens of the false sense of security about anonymity then maybe they will curb some dark repressed desire to go find little girls to chat with or try to setup that date with the hooker or download that bootleg copy of Snakes on a Plane. I do think people need to start using a little more self-control or they will actually bring on more erosion of their civil liberties. If we all work toward a better culture online then maybe the government will have less grounds to erode the open nature of this wonderful medium. This all has very little to do with how we might lobby for our own objectives involving the tracking of online activity but it makes for good debate none the less. Scriv Tim Kerns wrote: *Qwest on data retention laws: Oops* http://news.com.com/Qwest+on+data+retention+laws+Oops/2100-1028-6108926.html?part=dhttag=nl.e703 http://news.com.com/Qwest+on+data+retention+laws+Oops/2100-1028-6108926.html?part=dhttag=nl.e703 Looks like someone may be updating their resume. - Original Message - *From:* Travis Johnson mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *To:* WISPA General List mailto:wireless@wispa.org *Sent:* Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:25 AM *Subject:* Re: [WISPA] WHY? Hi, You have to connect to the internet backbone somewhere (even if in multiple locations, etc.). You would simply need a $500 PC at each connection. Pretty simple. Travis Microserv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Travis, my network has no such central point. There is no point where my traffic passes through or can be mirrored to a single point at a building. In less than a year, it will all be dynamically routed via BGP, through physically diverse locations and providers, and again, traffic from the customers will not pass through any place where logging can be done. Nor have I any location to keep such data secure. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? Hi, Although I am totally against this, we are already doing this (and keeping a year's worth of history). Keep in mind we move about 110Mbps of traffic average. We setup a linux box (p4/2.8ghz with 1GB of RAM and a 200GB drive) about a year ago and installed IpAudit. This single box is able to keep up with the traffic load and helps us track down customers that are infected, SPAMMING, etc. We simply mirror our main incoming port on our backbone switch to another port, and plug the IpAudit box into that port. Works great. :) Travis Microserv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why? Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network infrastructure to do this. Is WISPA lobbying against this? It will be nearly impossible
Re: [WISPA] WHY?
You want me to hang a $500 PC in a box on a non-penetrating roof mount? Current location has no power, only POE - at 100feet. Next location up is precisely the same... buildingtop with only POE power from inside. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2006 6:25 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? Hi, You have to connect to the internet backbone somewhere (even if in multiple locations, etc.). You would simply need a $500 PC at each connection. Pretty simple. Travis Microserv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Travis, my network has no such central point. There is no point where my traffic passes through or can be mirrored to a single point at a building. In less than a year, it will all be dynamically routed via BGP, through physically diverse locations and providers, and again, traffic from the customers will not pass through any place where logging can be done. Nor have I any location to keep such data secure. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? Hi, Although I am totally against this, we are already doing this (and keeping a year's worth of history). Keep in mind we move about 110Mbps of traffic average. We setup a linux box (p4/2.8ghz with 1GB of RAM and a 200GB drive) about a year ago and installed IpAudit. This single box is able to keep up with the traffic load and helps us track down customers that are infected, SPAMMING, etc. We simply mirror our main incoming port on our backbone switch to another port, and plug the IpAudit box into that port. Works great. :) Travis Microserv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why? Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network infrastructure to do this. Is WISPA lobbying against this? It will be nearly impossible for most of us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a huge expense that we can't afford. - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM Subject: [WISPA] WHY? http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rsstag=6108279subj=news Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data? George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY? ----- ooops!!!!
I've always told my customers that whatever they do on the net is not annonamous. And that they should assume someone is watching and is listening. I've kinda described privacy on the net is like being blindfolded at the local football stadium and thinking nobody is there, but then to find out after you take the blindfold off that the stadium is full and everyone CAN see you. They just might not be looking at you at the moment. You know, we can all think we have a right to privacy, but I think our rights to privacy for whatever reason we might believe we have them is limited. When you step out in the public domain, there is not much privacy that you are entitled to. As time moves on and the sophistication of our society increases we have to adjust our thinking. George Scrivner wrote: I still think we need to keep this discussion going for a bit. I have a question for you guys. Which do you think is better for all concerned. Do you think we should portray a false sense of security and anonymity? Do you think we should tell our customers, Hey do whatever you want online, nobody is tracking anything. Then when a customer trips up on an online resource that is a trap by the feds they get a court order and beat on us with subpoenas and the like until we give them whatever data we might have. I can tell you what I do online and on the telephone. I assume I am being monitored all the time. (No...not in that paranoid they're out to get me sort of way). Why should anyone think otherwise? It is not as if the legal system cannot listen in or watch if they really want to. All it takes is a court to approve a tap. It is not that big a deal to the legal system. I am not advocating that we help the government strip away our civil liberties. If I did not think they were part anti-Christ I would likely join and support the ACLU because our government is chiseling away at our civil liberties one by one, a piece at a time, slowly and methodically and none of us are really doing anything but watching it happen and whining about it occasionally. Just like that boiling frog analogy someone expressed on here recently (I really liked that analogy by the way). What I am saying is it would probably be a better service to our customers if we simply tell them the facts. Let them know that if they do something out of line on the Internet that there is a very good chance they will be tracked and caught. There are in fact legal efforts online setup to trap folks who are doing bad things. They exist and they catch lots of people doing bad things. I cannot help but think that part of the reason for this increase in criminal behavior is born from a false sense of security people have that they can go do things on the Internet that nobody will ever catch them or see them doing. They think they are invisible or somehow that the laws do not apply while they are online. Maybe if we warn our fellow citizens of the false sense of security about anonymity then maybe they will curb some dark repressed desire to go find little girls to chat with or try to setup that date with the hooker or download that bootleg copy of Snakes on a Plane. I do think people need to start using a little more self-control or they will actually bring on more erosion of their civil liberties. If we all work toward a better culture online then maybe the government will have less grounds to erode the open nature of this wonderful medium. This all has very little to do with how we might lobby for our own objectives involving the tracking of online activity but it makes for good debate none the less. Scriv -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY?
IMHO, this is real simple.. If you give me an IP, in near real-time or for a few months after, I can give you a user name and address, unless it was a free, public access use at one of our hotspots, in which case you are SOL. If it is 6 months ago or longer, if the user is still a customer, I can give you a name and address. If they have terminated service and paid their bill in full, you are again SOL. Beyond that, I can't tell you anything.I do not track where my users go or what they do or who they IM to, or who they email. It is none of my business and I resent the .gov trying to make me an unpaid cop. If the .gov wants this data, they can pay for it... and the equipment and the data storage... and the bandwidth and my time The only thing we track is virus and spam traffic. And that only for defending network integrity. Those logs die if not looked at in 24-48 hours -- Blair Davis AOL IM Screen Name -- Theory240 West Michigan Wireless ISP 269-686-8648 A division of: Camp Communication Services, INC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY?
Scott, We now receive about one supeona per month for information from federal and state agencies. The last one was a guy in his 30's trying to setup a "meeting" with a 13 year old girl. I was able to provide the information because we log all of that already. It's hard to go back and get traffic info if the offense was 3 weeks prior. (The guy confessed once the sheriff showed up at his house, BTW). Travis Microserv Scott Reed wrote: I don't know that I can even do that much, but I agree, it is not for me to fund data collection for the government. If they want data collected, I can make a switch port available and charge them co-location fees to house a system they provide. As long as there is a law or court order, I have no problem with that. Otherwise, the data collected will get thrown out of many courts anyway. No probably cause to be watching. Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- Original Message --- From: Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:27:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? IMHO, this is real simple.. If you give me an IP, in near real-time or for a few months after, I can give you a user name and address, unless it was a free, public access use at one of our hotspots, in which case you are SOL. If it is 6 months ago or longer, if the user is still a customer, I can give you a name and address. If they have terminated service and paid their bill in full, you are again SOL. Beyond that, I can't tell you anything. I do not track where my users go or what they do or who they IM to, or who they email. It is none of my business and I resent the .gov trying to make me an unpaid cop. If the .gov wants this data, they can pay for it... and the equipment and the data storage... and the bandwidth and my time The only thing we track is virus and spam traffic. And that only for defending network integrity. Those logs die if not looked at in 24-48 hours -- Blair Davis AOL IM Screen Name -- Theory240 West Michigan Wireless ISP 269-686-8648 A division of: Camp Communication Services, INC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- End of Original Message --- __ NOD32 1.1723 (20060824) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY?
I don't know that I can even do that much, but I agree, it is not for me to fund data collection for the government. If they want data collected, I can make a switch port available and charge them co-location fees to house a system they provide. As long as there is a law or court order, I have no problem with that. Otherwise, the data collected will get thrown out of many courts anyway. No probably cause to be watching. Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- Original Message --- From: Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:27:53 -0400 Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? IMHO, this is real simple.. If you give me an IP, in near real-time or for a few months after, I can give you a user name and address, unless it was a free, public access use at one of our hotspots, in which case you are SOL. If it is 6 months ago or longer, if the user is still a customer, I can give you a name and address. If they have terminated service and paid their bill in full, you are again SOL. Beyond that, I can't tell you anything. I do not track where my users go or what they do or who they IM to, or who they email. It is none of my business and I resent the .gov trying to make me an unpaid cop. If the .gov wants this data, they can pay for it... and the equipment and the data storage... and the bandwidth and my time The only thing we track is virus and spam traffic. And that only for defending network integrity. Those logs die if not looked at in 24-48 hours -- Blair Davis AOL IM Screen Name -- Theory240 West Michigan Wireless ISP 269-686-8648 A division of: Camp Communication Services, INC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ --- End of Original Message --- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY? ----- ooops!!!!
Mark Koskenmaki wrote: I do not want the legal liability of being responsible for having such logs, keeping such logs, and having to prove such logs are absolutely accurate. That's just that part. Amen to that brother! Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY?
Given what the article cites I don't see it being a severe burden on a small ISP. All that I see mentioned in the article is the ability to track what IP belongs to what customer over a period of time. If you can't track that on your network, how do you manage to troubleshoot problems or deal with security concerns such as a virus/trojan or other inappropriate/malicious behavior on your network? That being said I don't want anyone to construe that I am for this legislation in ANY form. If the government wants to know what my subscribers are doing, they can get a court order and I will gladly log the customer covered under the court order for the period described by the court order. This needs to be fought not on a technical basis, but on a rights basis. The technical issues can solved over time and then where would we be. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why? Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network infrastructure to do this. Is WISPA lobbying against this? It will be nearly impossible for most of us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a huge expense that we can't afford. - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM Subject: [WISPA] WHY? http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rsstag=6108279subj=news Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data? George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY?
wrong, every person has the right to be assumed innocent until proven guilty. To all, As a police officer, i need a wiretap on a phone line, because i believe the person using that ph. line is doing something illegal. When i get that permission from the judicial authority i may start tracking what is happening on that ph. line. Before that, what ever is happening on that ph. line is not legally available to me. So why would the ph company have records of that ph line ready for me, before the court gave me permission to tap that ph. line? You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca office 905 349-2084 Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900 skype cajeptha George Rogato wrote: Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why? Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network infrastructure to do this. Is WISPA lobbying against this? It will be nearly impossible for most of us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a huge expense that we can't afford. Mark, I can tell that you are a fellow Oregonian! Thats my guess why... Just to bust our nuts and give us all a push over the edge. George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY?
As usual, Scriv has defined this well. I always want to tell BB to take a long walk on a short dock. However, This is an important issue, public addresses, private uses. Well said Scriv.Ron Wallace Hahnron, Inc. 220 S. Jackson Dt. Addison, MI 49220 Phone: (517)547-8410 Mobile: (517)605-4542 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]-Original Message-From: John Scrivner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 07:02 PMTo: 'WISPA General List'Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY?Sam Tetherow wrote: Given what the article cites I don't see it being a severe burden on a small ISP. All that I see mentioned in the article is the ability to track what IP belongs to what customer over a period of time. If you can't track that on your network, how do you manage to troubleshoot problems or deal with security concerns such as a virus/trojan or other inappropriate/malicious behavior on your network?I think most people here track who has what address. Otherwise how could you possibly run your network? What they likely do not do is keep logs of who had what address three years ago. Or when IP address "A" changed to IP address "B" for customer "1" or "2". Without that legacy data the IP information provided could be inaccurate. In fact the only way it could be 100% accurate is if the request was in real time - ie. FBI calls ISP and asks who is using X.X.X.X IP address right now.This never happens so the issue is how long should we have to keep this log information? Should we have to keep it at all? Should we simply use DNS to assign names to addresses for all users which are kept up to date then by us? (Names of customers as "A" records for all IPs) Then the person can be identified by DNS name in real time and leave the rest to Uncle Sam. After all we do not need to be telling Uncle Sam how to use DNS right? A sound argument by many could be made that a user of a "public" IP address should involve "public" disclosure via DNS of who a user of an address is. Please note I am not saying this is the way it should be necessarily. Only that this may well be a way to produce the needed result of government to track wrongdoers and the ISPs to not have to maintain lengthy log files of who had what address when. That being said I don't want anyone to construe that I am for this legislation in ANY form. If the government wants to know what my subscribers are doing, they can get a court order and I will gladly log the customer covered under the court order for the period described by the court order.The question on that topic is not whether or not a court should be able to access information. I think that is obvious. The real question is what should we be obligated to make available (email, web sites browsed, chats, etc.) We cannot really do much to help the government see where people go. I do not think that should be our job or any of our business as ISPs. This needs to be fought not on a technical basis, but on a rights basis. The technical issues can solved over time and then where would we be.Let's look at a rights basis then. Should people who use a "public" Internet be able to be anonymous via the connection of their ISP? If this "right" is taken away (right of personal anonymity online) then I think we need to make sure every person knows this when it happens so the "thought police" do not start throwing people in jail for what they read and think. Many argue that we have this problem already with some of the pornography cases where people have been put in prison for what they saw on the Internet. I agree that these are important issues to address. Rights does need to be the basis. Technology is not as important as rights.Scriv Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why? Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network infrastructure to do this. Is WISPA lobbying against this? It will be nearly impossible for most of us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a huge expense that we can't afford. - Original Message - From: "George Rogato" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: "WISPA General List" wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM Subject: [WISPA] WHY? http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rsstag=6108279subj=news Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data? George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY?
It's not about tracking what IP belongs to what customer. It's about logging ALL connections, possibly even content. - Original Message - From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:18 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? Given what the article cites I don't see it being a severe burden on a small ISP. All that I see mentioned in the article is the ability to track what IP belongs to what customer over a period of time. If you can't track that on your network, how do you manage to troubleshoot problems or deal with security concerns such as a virus/trojan or other inappropriate/malicious behavior on your network? That being said I don't want anyone to construe that I am for this legislation in ANY form. If the government wants to know what my subscribers are doing, they can get a court order and I will gladly log the customer covered under the court order for the period described by the court order. This needs to be fought not on a technical basis, but on a rights basis. The technical issues can solved over time and then where would we be. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why? Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network infrastructure to do this. Is WISPA lobbying against this? It will be nearly impossible for most of us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a huge expense that we can't afford. - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM Subject: [WISPA] WHY? http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rsstag=6108279subj=news Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data? George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] WHY?
Travis, my network has no such central point. There is no point where my traffic passes through or can be mirrored to a single point at a building. In less than a year, it will all be dynamically routed via BGP, through physically diverse locations and providers, and again, traffic from the customers will not pass through any place where logging can be done. Nor have I any location to keep such data secure. - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] WHY? Hi, Although I am totally against this, we are already doing this (and keeping a year's worth of history). Keep in mind we move about 110Mbps of traffic average. We setup a linux box (p4/2.8ghz with 1GB of RAM and a 200GB drive) about a year ago and installed IpAudit. This single box is able to keep up with the traffic load and helps us track down customers that are infected, SPAMMING, etc. We simply mirror our main incoming port on our backbone switch to another port, and plug the IpAudit box into that port. Works great. :) Travis Microserv Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Why? Because it will severely burden smaller ISP's that lack the network infrastructure to do this. Is WISPA lobbying against this? It will be nearly impossible for most of us in the wireless business to do this, without major restructuring, or a huge expense that we can't afford. - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2006 10:05 AM Subject: [WISPA] WHY? http://news.com.com/2100-1028_3-6108279.html?part=rsstag=6108279subj=news Why would Qwest want ISP's to have to retain this data? George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
[WISPA] Why ILEC regulation is different from Cable and WISP regulation... WAS: Re: FCC DSL - WBIA ACTIONRecommendation
Charles, Given your position on this issue, I have to believe that your comments are partially tongue-in-cheek. The telcos have had a government-mandated monopoly for over 50 years where they were allowed to collect monopolistic profits to build the grand network that they possess today. They own their cable plants as a direct result of the money that the public contributed (and continue to contribute in most areas) to them; not because they were one of the competitors offering a top-notch service. The ILECs continue to control last-mile access to consumers not because it is impossible for competitors to mirror their connectivity, but because it is cost-prohibitive to build that infrastructure when the expected gross return hovers around $300/year [1]. ILECs aren't comparable to cable providers for three reasons: 1) cable providers generally built their networks from capitol generated from their operations without financial assistance from the government and were not granted taxation authority to subsidize network construction a la USF; 2) Cable providers' services have not been a nearly required utility for the past 50 years. 3) Cable providers have cost-analogous competition in virtually every market from Satellite based television providers, video rental stores, online information services, etc. ILECs aren't comparable to WISPs for the same reasons above and for these additional reasons: 1) WISPs for the most part haven't had any assistance from the public sector that wasn't available to any other business at the time; 2) WISPs could have a viable competitor enter their market at any time for a relatively low start-up cost. The only potentially limiting factor is tower locations and as many of you know, if one municipality rejects you, you just beam it in from outside the town [2]; 3) Most WISPs have little power to eliminate competition by undercharging because they don't have the ability to generate monopolistic profits from other operations. guestimation The ILECs are deathly afraid that the government will not allow them to exclusively exploit their monopoly-gained infrastructure because they know that their operation is so incredibly inefficient and out-dated that they can't compete with other carriers even when they are on slightly-elevated ground. If $14.95/month business 1.5MB DSL isn't desperate dumping to eliminate competition, I don't know what is. They couldn't do this without their monopoly phone line revenue from the past 75 years. How much do they charge for a T-1? $700/month? Is it really that much different? /guestimation Allowing ILECs to prevent competitors from using their newly-built infrastructure in 2004 was a shaky proposition because they usually possess the ability to build that infrastructure as a direct result of their previous monopoly. Allowing ILECs to prevent others from using their existing infrastructure that was paid for as a direct result of their monopoly amounts to nothing less than government corporate welfare which will lead to fewer choices for consumers [3] and higher prices [4] for the services that they have the privilege of ordering from the duopoly. - Tony P.S. Anyone want to bid on this with me? Oh, you don't have enough capital? I can't imagine why... http://news.com.com/2061-10800_3-5819312.html [1] Assuming $50/month revenue and a 50% chance that they choose a competitor. Yes, I know that we can bundle services to get this number to $100 or more, but that generally hasn't happened and it's simpler to just talk about Internet-based services. Additionally, the _net_ return from an individual consumer probably hovers around $200/year. Can you even build wireless connectivity for this kind of return while running the inefficient operations that the ILECs have? [2] Maybe this part of WISP operations should be regulated. I can see some benefit to having an equal-access-to-towers regulation that covers all structures in an economically- or politically-limited tower environment. [3] Most ISPs rely on ILEC connectivity for either last-mile access to their customers or for their interconnectivity to the Internet. If the ILECs are allowed to discontinue or artificially inflate the cost of these services we will see a similar loss-of-competition that occurred three years ago with competing DSL providers. [4] They will probably look lower though. I am amazed by how foolish most consumers act. Many actually believe that $14.95/month DSL + $50/month (required) phone line is a better deal than $35/month Internet and $25/month (optional) phone line. Maybe a consistent pricing system is a better way for government to foster broadband development. On 8/4/2005 12:07 PM, Charles Wu created: Here's the issue If you vote to regulate the bells, then you (as WISPs) must also be ready to ultimately submit yourself (or at least your facilities based network infrastructure) to regulation sometime in the near future - to requote