Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
1. I don't agree that 'vehicle' insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or its use. 'Vehicle' insurance covers things when used as a 'vehicle'... Driving accidents. Even if you have 'vehicle' insurance on a bucket truck, you would need 'liability AND worker's compensation' insurances to cover any personal and property from the use of the 'bucket.' I believe that you could use a bucket truck without 'vehicle' insurance if you had 'liability' insurance on PRIVATE property and be covered adequately. But, you would NOT be covered driving the truck from place to place. Similarly, if you only had 'vehicle' insurance, you may be covered (if you do omit the fact that you are driving a bucket truck) for accidents while driving as a vehicle, but not covered for the use of the bucket. 2. If you have employees use their personal vehicle for business use, THEIR protection comes from THEIR policy coverage and is meant for their protection. If YOU, as their employer, want to be covered, you need to add 'non-owned vehicle' coverage to your liability insurance. That is what covers YOU in the event the employee causes a loss while using their personal vehicle for your business. Just my 2 cents...from a non-insurance agent. :) On 11/17/06 5:31 PM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or its use Insightful, I did not know that. And under that situation, Its logical that business liability coverage would cover anything above what the auto-insurance did not. But the real question here is not whether the Auto-Insurance will cover the bucket. Its wether the Primary Business Liabilty insurance will cover the insodent as primary coverage, IF there is no auto-coverage for the Bucket, for example if it was not disclosed and made invalid. Meaning, why buy duplicate coverage, if Business Liability Coverage would cover it, and it would be unwise to not have business liabilty, as every property owner requires it to be there before doing work. as most personal lines policies do not cover any type of business use, Please clarify. There are a lot of employees that are required to use their own vehichles for work and employer does not provide one. For example, Pizza delivery. Are you saying they are not covered? I find that hard to believe. I'd understand that if a business used a personal policy for its vehicles and then let employees drive it, that it likely may not be covered. But I thought for sure that if I had my own vehichle at work, I could drive it myself for work. There are many people who share their vehicle for part work and part personel. ITs not viable to have two policies on the same vehichle, and not always viable to have two vehichles. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom DeReggi wrote: Excellent point Travis. It would be covered under business liabilty insurance and/or workman's comp. Auto insurance is meant to cover the driver or other guy that got hurt in a driving accident. Never once heard of a bucket contributing to a driving accident with another vehichle. Unless of course you were driving down the road and forgot to lower the boom before driving away :-) Your business liabilty insurance is also more appropriate for this, as you classify what type of business you are in. Using it as a lineman, home construction, or Computer Networking can be considered and has required provisions for defining that in the agreement. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom, Wrong answer about the business liability insurance :-) . In most states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or its use. For instance, in PA, if You close the van door on Your hand(even if the vehicle is parked and not moving) and break it, Your auto insurance has to pay the medical bills. If the operator of the bucket truck sends it through the roof of the house they are working on, then the property damage coverage of Your auto policy(primary) kicks in and pays for the roof. There is a chance that Your business insurance(GL or general liability) policy would cover You on a secondary basis if the coverage on the auto policy was not enough and You were sued for the difference?(Varies by state). The legal term for this is called the proximate cause of the accident or problem, and since the bucket was attached to the van, the auto policy
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Cliff Leboeuf wrote: 1. I don't agree that 'vehicle' insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or its use. 'Vehicle' insurance covers things when used as a 'vehicle'... Driving accidents. Even if you have 'vehicle' insurance on a bucket truck, you would need 'liability AND worker's compensation' insurances to cover any personal and property from the use of the 'bucket.' I believe that you could use a bucket truck without 'vehicle' insurance if you had 'liability' insurance on PRIVATE property and be covered adequately. // OK, Auto insurance is designed to pay for anything that happens or arises out of the use of any vehicle listed on the policy. It does not matter whether or not the vehicle is used on private property OR a public roadway, OR if it is moving or stationary, period. Their are really 2 types of auto insurance, personal and commercial. Personal insurance is designed for the average Joe that used their car or small truck(pickup) to drive back and forth to work(Notice I didn't say For work, very important!), take the kids to soccer practice and church on Sundays. It will even cover You if You help Your loving Mother in Law move into Your house and You bring her belongings over in the back of Your pickup, LOL!. This is what a personal use really is(At NO TIME are You making $$) . Business Auto or commercial insurance is designed for any type of vehicle that is used in the course of activities that generate income for Yourself or a Corporation, LLC etc. It does not matter if You own the Corp. or You work for it, or You are just doing a favor for the person who does own it.One of the main things that makes business auto insurance so different is that it has to cover not only driving accidents, but accidents that arise from what the different types of things vehicles do in the course of their travels, as the average person does not own a vehicle with a bucket truck on it, nor do they own a tanker truck filled with Jet fuel that they drive to Church on Sundays. Personal lines coverage just deals with one thing, accidents that come from small autos hitting something else(For the most part?). Business insurance covers a very broad spectrum of things that specialized vehicles do, and there could be a very different type of exposure the insurance CO would have to pay out on a claim based on what the vehicle in question was designed to do. In almost every state, the business auto insurance covers ANYTHING that arises from the use of the vehicle, PERIOD. Whether it is a hole made in the roof from a bucket, or a stream and local pond destroyed because 50 gallons of diesel fuel leaked from the fuel tanks, or the Thermo King unit took a crap and all 10,000 pds. of frozen fish got stinky really fast?, it is covered under the business auto policy and Your GL(General Liability) DOES NOT. General liability insurance is designed to pay for damages done through the course of Your normal business activities. This would include things like causing a roof to leak during an install, or one of Your employees flicking a cigarette into a pile of leaves at the customers house and the entire place burned down. Depending on how Your GL policy is written, or what state You live in, it may or may not cover SOME of the auto related claims as a secondary coverage, but secondary coverage ONLY. Most of the ones that do cover losses like this will have a paragraph in the policy itself stating that if there is no primary coverage from the business auto policy?, the GL coverage can not be used as primary. There are simply no shortcuts when it comes to buying insurance? Most states also make You carry a minimum medical coverage amount. This amount is primary even IF You have workman's Comp. So if You have $10,000 of medical coverage on Your business auto policy, and one of Your employees falls out of the bucket while it is in the air and breaks both of their legs?, Your business auto policy will pay the first $10,000 of the medical bills AND THEN workmans comp. will kick in a pay the rest. With all of the different types of insurance You mentioned Cliff in Your post above, each one has a purpose and will only pay out in a very specific instance. There is no way that You could purchase just a GL (General liability) policy and stretch it or do a little dance and hope that You are covered at the time of a loss. 2. If you have employees use their personal vehicle for business use, THEIR protection comes from THEIR policy coverage and is meant for their protection. If YOU, as their employer, want to be covered, you need to add 'non-owned vehicle' coverage to your liability insurance. That is what covers YOU in the event the employee causes a loss while using their personal vehicle for your business. Cliff, here again, personal lines policies will only pay for something that happens when You are driving Your car or truck for personal
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or its use Insightful, I did not know that. And under that situation, Its logical that business liability coverage would cover anything above what the auto-insurance did not. But the real question here is not whether the Auto-Insurance will cover the bucket. Its wether the Primary Business Liabilty insurance will cover the insodent as primary coverage, IF there is no auto-coverage for the Bucket, for example if it was not disclosed and made invalid. Meaning, why buy duplicate coverage, if Business Liability Coverage would cover it, and it would be unwise to not have business liabilty, as every property owner requires it to be there before doing work. as most personal lines policies do not cover any type of business use, Please clarify. There are a lot of employees that are required to use their own vehichles for work and employer does not provide one. For example, Pizza delivery. Are you saying they are not covered? I find that hard to believe. I'd understand that if a business used a personal policy for its vehicles and then let employees drive it, that it likely may not be covered. But I thought for sure that if I had my own vehichle at work, I could drive it myself for work. There are many people who share their vehicle for part work and part personel. ITs not viable to have two policies on the same vehichle, and not always viable to have two vehichles. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom DeReggi wrote: Excellent point Travis. It would be covered under business liabilty insurance and/or workman's comp. Auto insurance is meant to cover the driver or other guy that got hurt in a driving accident. Never once heard of a bucket contributing to a driving accident with another vehichle. Unless of course you were driving down the road and forgot to lower the boom before driving away :-) Your business liabilty insurance is also more appropriate for this, as you classify what type of business you are in. Using it as a lineman, home construction, or Computer Networking can be considered and has required provisions for defining that in the agreement. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom, Wrong answer about the business liability insurance :-) . In most states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or its use. For instance, in PA, if You close the van door on Your hand(even if the vehicle is parked and not moving) and break it, Your auto insurance has to pay the medical bills. If the operator of the bucket truck sends it through the roof of the house they are working on, then the property damage coverage of Your auto policy(primary) kicks in and pays for the roof. There is a chance that Your business insurance(GL or general liability) policy would cover You on a secondary basis if the coverage on the auto policy was not enough and You were sued for the difference?(Varies by state). The legal term for this is called the proximate cause of the accident or problem, and since the bucket was attached to the van, the auto policy will cover it. This is why Your insurance CO is pitching a fit about the bucket. Here is some more insurance trivia that all of You should be aware of, as I for one hate surprises. Did You know that if at the end of Your employees shift, You ask that person to drop off a check, contract, pick up a part at radio shack etc. and they are involved in an accident, You are going to be sued right along with Your employee and their (employee's)private auto insurer will more than likely deny the claim, as most personal lines policies do not cover any type of business use, period. The idea here is that the accident in question would have never occured if You had not asked the employee to run an errand for You. We also have some of us business owners that do not own any private vehicles. If everything You own is insured commercially?, Do Not EVER rent a vehicle unless Your Business auto policy has drive other car coverage, because if it doesn't?, You will be paying the bill for the accident, as most commercial auto policies only cover the vehicles listed on it, and if it 'aint there?, It 'aint covered. :-( -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List:
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Tom DeReggi wrote: states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or its use Insightful, I did not know that. And under that situation, Its logical that business liability coverage would cover anything above what the auto-insurance did not. But the real question here is not whether the Auto-Insurance will cover the bucket. Its wether the Primary Business Liabilty insurance will cover the insodent as primary coverage, IF there is no auto-coverage for the Bucket, for example if it was not disclosed and made invalid. Meaning, why buy duplicate coverage, if Business Liability Coverage would cover it, and it would be unwise to not have business liabilty, as every property owner requires it to be there before doing work. as most personal lines policies do not cover any type of business use, Please clarify. My dad has to have commercial coverage on his car because he is a mailman (uses personal car for work). I asked my insurance agent if my employee (on a non commercial policy) would be covered if I had him drive his own car to deliver a computer to someone. He said no. If you use your car for work (not just driving to work) even one time you are suppose to have a commercial policy. That is the way Michigan is. There are a lot of employees that are required to use their own vehichles for work and employer does not provide one. For example, Pizza delivery. Are you saying they are not covered? I find that hard to believe. I'd understand that if a business used a personal policy for its vehicles and then let employees drive it, that it likely may not be covered. But I thought for sure that if I had my own vehichle at work, I could drive it myself for work. There are many people who share their vehicle for part work and part personel. ITs not viable to have two policies on the same vehichle, and not always viable to have two vehichles. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 9:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom DeReggi wrote: Excellent point Travis. It would be covered under business liabilty insurance and/or workman's comp. Auto insurance is meant to cover the driver or other guy that got hurt in a driving accident. Never once heard of a bucket contributing to a driving accident with another vehichle. Unless of course you were driving down the road and forgot to lower the boom before driving away :-) Your business liabilty insurance is also more appropriate for this, as you classify what type of business you are in. Using it as a lineman, home construction, or Computer Networking can be considered and has required provisions for defining that in the agreement. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom, Wrong answer about the business liability insurance :-) . In most states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or its use. For instance, in PA, if You close the van door on Your hand(even if the vehicle is parked and not moving) and break it, Your auto insurance has to pay the medical bills. If the operator of the bucket truck sends it through the roof of the house they are working on, then the property damage coverage of Your auto policy(primary) kicks in and pays for the roof. There is a chance that Your business insurance(GL or general liability) policy would cover You on a secondary basis if the coverage on the auto policy was not enough and You were sued for the difference?(Varies by state). The legal term for this is called the proximate cause of the accident or problem, and since the bucket was attached to the van, the auto policy will cover it. This is why Your insurance CO is pitching a fit about the bucket. Here is some more insurance trivia that all of You should be aware of, as I for one hate surprises. Did You know that if at the end of Your employees shift, You ask that person to drop off a check, contract, pick up a part at radio shack etc. and they are involved in an accident, You are going to be sued right along with Your employee and their (employee's)private auto insurer will more than likely deny the claim, as most personal lines policies do not cover any type of business use, period. The idea here is that the accident in question would have never occured if You had not asked the employee to run an errand for You. We also have some of us business owners that do not own any private vehicles. If everything You own is insured commercially?, Do Not EVER rent a vehicle unless
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Man, that is scary and damn foolish advice you guys! Nothing worse than finding out that you are improperly insured. Can you imagine what would happen when you tried to file a claim and they denied it because you insured a van not a bucket truck! wow Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Yup yup yup. Ours is a Ford F-350 4x4. :) Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket! Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. We dropped it and parked the truck for now. When it's time to use it again I'll probably just have the insurance set up so that I'm the only one that can use the truck. Our insurance is a wreck these days. The costs have shot up so high it's almost impossible to afford any. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Dylan Bouterse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:22 AM Subject: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work? Dylan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
fyi I'm not even going to try to read these last two posts. You guys need to use paragraphs! This is wa too hard on the ol' eyes! Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. When you put it that way... It does bring a new perpective to think about. Well said. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it would be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting information. There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The first one is like Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have to, and the thought of using it doesn't really cross Your mind for all the reasons You mentioned below. If it were possible, I am sure that insurance CO's would love to find a way to discern the quality customers from the irresponsible ones, and charge lower rates based on this fact, and the fact that the bucket is only used once a month?. That sad part is there is no real way to do this, as insurance is based on the law of large #'s, and in order for it to work, everyone must be lumped together in one big pool(for lack of other words?). Your customer profile is fairly common though. I respect the fact that when the truck is in the field, only responsible operators like Yourself will be operating the bucket, being extra cautious as to whats going on around You and whats happening when the boom is moving etc. This is the way it should be at all times. Now lets move on to the second type of customer(The most uncommon, believe it or not?). This person usually does everything they can to cut corners, not only with work ethics and install qualities but also with their level of responsibilties in the day to day operation of their business. This customer will hire the cheapest employee that will work for them, skimp on safety and vehicle maintainence, owe $$ to most of the vendors he or she does business with and they will usually try and call their employees Sub-contractors, trying to avoid paying taxes and workmans compensation to make more $$(This is really an entirely different topic, but I am just using this as an example?). This risk taking carries over to things such as the safe use of a bucket truck. If You remember, I mentioned that the people that work for this person are really only there because they can not find a job anywhere else, and our business owner in question hires them because it is cheap labor. The day comes when the bucket truck is needed for an install, and our employee gets behind the wheel to do the job(Keep in mind that our employee was up half the night boozing with his/her friends, and just found it their spouse is messing with the neighbor). When at the job site, this employee will not have very good safety principles, and will do something really dumb like tear the service head for the electric off the wall of the house and tear down the cable CO's fiber line, along with the local Telco's phone systems. The reason I am mentioning all this is because for the most part, 10% of all insurance customers file 90% of the claims for reasons mentioned above. This same customer will also use their insurance policy as a maintainence contract, and try to get the insurance CO to pay for things that You or I would simply say, OK, this happened, but I will just fix it myself, as it was my fault in the first place. I dropped a 4ft piece of pipe off of the roof last year and it hit the only car parked on the entire street. It was an older car that already had 4000 dents and peeling paint, but the damage to the fender was $430. I just paid it, because it was stupidity in the first place, and I didn't want my rates to go up?. Now, the other side of this: We have an incidence where an individual needed new tires for inspection, so using their really smart brain, they drove it home from the mechanic that failed it, and slashed all the tires themselves. The insurance CO only paid the prorated amount, as the tires were worn out in the first place, so this enterprising individual got pissed, and went and got a set of tires(That didn't match) from the local junk yard that had been slashed in a previous crime, had them mounted on the rims
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Tim, I agree, there is risk of not getting covered, if full disclosure is not given. That is something that the WISP should consider in advance. (But doesn't mean it won't be covered, as they'd need to prove that having the bucket was something both parties typical would think relevant to disclose. The insurance company wrote the contract and it would be their responsibility to bring up the things that should or should not be disclosed. I'd not suggest a WISP lie, if there was a question or text referencing wether there was or wasn't a bucket, as that would guarantee not getting covered.) But I think it is also relavent, what a WISPs intent is for use of the truck and bucket. Someone that wants a bucket truck, but only plans to use it once a month for the tough job, should not have to pay the same high rate, as say a Lineman that may use the bucket all day / every day around high voltage lines. Very few insurance companies have provisions for that, as they do not have a way to control what the usage will actually end up being. This means a WISP then needs to make cost versus risk assesments, on what they want to do. I'd also argue, that it would be rare for me to ever justify making an insurance claim, based on the risk of loosing the insurance or no longer being able to afford it, after making the claime. (except for extreme cases like someone falling and breaking their neck). If the owner or a supervisor are the only ones that will be using the bucket, more care can be taken and less risk taken, than if the intent is for the truck to be used by all/any installers frequently. Some people buy insurance for compliance to do business, not necessarilly for the coverage itself. Just like every other type of insurance (health, life, business, etc), one must waiver wether they really need insurance, or can afford to pay to releive the risk or not. Quite honestly, I'd rather take a chance of not getting covered in a bucket, and minimize the risk of someone getting injured because they have the bucket, than have the installer taking risks on a dangerous ladder all day long. I'm not downplaying the risk involved for a bucket truck, I'm jsut saying that Ladders are dangerous to, expecially for single man crew. I know about more personal injury suits in the trades, via falling off ladders, than any other cause. Its not that I don't believe in insurance, or in doing it legitimately. Its just that if a WISP is not careful, there insurance policy costs can put them out of business, just having an uninsured injury. For example, many amusement companies go out of business because they can't afford the insurance and can't jsutify takingthe risk without it. I'd hate to see the same thing destroy wireless companies. I prefer to handle the issue from the other side... Inforce strong safety policies and safety awareness education. The safety training is much less expensive than the insurance and paying claims. Not that that negates the need for insurance, but it will keep the rates down, if WISPs as an industry don't put themselves in the position to be claim happy. For the record, I personally do not have a bucket truck yet. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:13 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom DeReggi wrote: If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket! Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband As an insurance agent for the last 16 years in the state of PA(Besides running a WISP too for the last 5 years), I can tell You that there are some negatives to just Not mentioning the fact that it has a bucket on it. The first one is that when You sign the insurance application(This info. only applies to the state of PA where I am licensed, keep in mind the every state has different insurance laws, but almost ALL of them adopted the laws from the state of NY, as they were one of the first to actually clamp down and adopt them, and this is what PA uses), there is a paragraph that says all of the information You have submitted to the insurance CO is correct and You then sign underneath it. It is a great possibility that by omitting the fact that Your van had a bucket on it, the CO could deny Your claim based on the fact that You chose to omit the information about the bucket on purpose, as You knew this would stop You from securing coverage?. While I do understand that securing the proper insurance is becoming expensive, maybe even out of hand?, I do not want to see You or any other small CO lose everything buy trying to cut corners and get around something by being dishonest?. Almost all insurance have something called Good faith
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Borders on Insurance fraud... and if you have to activate the insurance, they don't have to pay... Tom DeReggi wrote: If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket! Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
A guy that was helping me out crashed my install truck a month or two ago. He didn't see a stop sign. He t-boned an old couple in their mid-late 70s. The woman more than had enough injuries to qualify for the 100K personal liability/personal disability (PL/PD) I had on the plan. But wait..My truck didn't have commercial insurance. It wasn't even in my name or company name, but I owned the truck. Anyway, the way my lawyer explains it, that 100K coverage it almost automatic for when someone gets hurt. (they also said that within hours after the accident report was filed the insurance lawyers would be all over this couple offering to take the case) Anyway, all the couple has to do is ask (sue) for the 100K and it is theirs. We'll see how it plays out. I hope my coverage wouldn't be denied if they decide to walk to the lotto store and cash in the winning ticket (as my lawyer put it). I have since switched to my own commercial policy, but there is one thing that really ticks me off. the commercial policy is CHEAPER! That is insane. I pay every 6 months. It was like $400 and now it's $350, even though I got a speeding ticket 2 months ago. He says he clocked me at 35 in a 25, but I was in manual 3rd gear and you can feel those RPMs. I looked down and saw 28. I was pissed I went right home stuck the gps on the roof and drove. I had 9 satellites and my speedo was dead nutz. Anyway, because the wreck was my truck I got an at fault on my record, but so did my helper along with a failure to stop and the automatic 3 points for causing a wreck. I went from a clean record single driver on regular insurance to a commercial policy with 2 drivers and a combination of 2 tickets, 2 at faults, and 7 points...and I saved $50. WHERE YOU AT NOW GECKO! The moral of the story is if you are not on commercial insurance you need to go get yourself a few tickets and switch. You will be better protected and have cheaper rates. Brian Tom DeReggi wrote: Tim, I agree, there is risk of not getting covered, if full disclosure is not given. That is something that the WISP should consider in advance. (But doesn't mean it won't be covered, as they'd need to prove that having the bucket was something both parties typical would think relevant to disclose. The insurance company wrote the contract and it would be their responsibility to bring up the things that should or should not be disclosed. I'd not suggest a WISP lie, if there was a question or text referencing wether there was or wasn't a bucket, as that would guarantee not getting covered.) But I think it is also relavent, what a WISPs intent is for use of the truck and bucket. Someone that wants a bucket truck, but only plans to use it once a month for the tough job, should not have to pay the same high rate, as say a Lineman that may use the bucket all day / every day around high voltage lines. Very few insurance companies have provisions for that, as they do not have a way to control what the usage will actually end up being. This means a WISP then needs to make cost versus risk assesments, on what they want to do. I'd also argue, that it would be rare for me to ever justify making an insurance claim, based on the risk of loosing the insurance or no longer being able to afford it, after making the claime. (except for extreme cases like someone falling and breaking their neck). If the owner or a supervisor are the only ones that will be using the bucket, more care can be taken and less risk taken, than if the intent is for the truck to be used by all/any installers frequently. Some people buy insurance for compliance to do business, not necessarilly for the coverage itself. Just like every other type of insurance (health, life, business, etc), one must waiver wether they really need insurance, or can afford to pay to releive the risk or not. Quite honestly, I'd rather take a chance of not getting covered in a bucket, and minimize the risk of someone getting injured because they have the bucket, than have the installer taking risks on a dangerous ladder all day long. I'm not downplaying the risk involved for a bucket truck, I'm jsut saying that Ladders are dangerous to, expecially for single man crew. I know about more personal injury suits in the trades, via falling off ladders, than any other cause. Its not that I don't believe in insurance, or in doing it legitimately. Its just that if a WISP is not careful, there insurance policy costs can put them out of business, just having an uninsured injury. For example, many amusement companies go out of business because they can't afford the insurance and can't jsutify takingthe risk without it. I'd hate to see the same thing destroy wireless companies. I prefer to handle the issue from the other side... Inforce strong safety policies and safety awareness education. The safety training is much less expensive than the
RE: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. And Worker's Comp...
How are you handling worker's comp for the people authorized to use the truck? Dylan -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of cw Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:10 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. You might have your agent try Progressive. Ours is listed as a ladder/bucket truck and they never said that was a problem. It's $2200/yr with collision and a million liability. Seems expensive to me but Florida insurance rates are just that way. - cw Dylan Bouterse wrote: I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work? Dylan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it would be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting information. There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The first one is like Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have to, and the thought of using it doesn't really cross Your mind for all the reasons You mentioned below. If it were possible, I am sure that insurance CO's would love to find a way to discern the quality customers from the irresponsible ones, and charge lower rates based on this fact, and the fact that the bucket is only used once a month?. That sad part is there is no real way to do this, as insurance is based on the law of large #'s, and in order for it to work, everyone must be lumped together in one big pool(for lack of other words?). Your customer profile is fairly common though. I respect the fact that when the truck is in the field, only responsible operators like Yourself will be operating the bucket, being extra cautious as to whats going on around You and whats happening when the boom is moving etc. This is the way it should be at all times. Now lets move on to the second type of customer(The most uncommon, believe it or not?). This person usually does everything they can to cut corners, not only with work ethics and install qualities but also with their level of responsibilties in the day to day operation of their business. This customer will hire the cheapest employee that will work for them, skimp on safety and vehicle maintainence, owe $$ to most of the vendors he or she does business with and they will usually try and call their employees Sub-contractors, trying to avoid paying taxes and workmans compensation to make more $$(This is really an entirely different topic, but I am just using this as an example?). This risk taking carries over to things such as the safe use of a bucket truck. If You remember, I mentioned that the people that work for this person are really only there because they can not find a job anywhere else, and our business owner in question hires them because it is cheap labor. The day comes when the bucket truck is needed for an install, and our employee gets behind the wheel to do the job(Keep in mind that our employee was up half the night boozing with his/her friends, and just found it their spouse is messing with the neighbor). When at the job site, this employee will not have very good safety principles, and will do something really dumb like tear the service head for the electric off the wall of the house and tear down the cable CO's fiber line, along with the local Telco's phone systems. The reason I am mentioning all this is because for the most part, 10% of all insurance customers file 90% of the claims for reasons mentioned above. This same customer will also use their insurance policy as a maintainence contract, and try to get the insurance CO to pay for things that You or I would simply say, OK, this happened, but I will just fix it myself, as it was my fault in the first place. I dropped a 4ft piece of pipe off of the roof last year and it hit the only car parked on the entire street. It was an older car that already had 4000 dents and peeling paint, but the damage to the fender was $430. I just paid it, because it was stupidity in the first place, and I didn't want my rates to go up?. Now, the other side of this: We have an incidence where an individual needed new tires for inspection, so using their really smart brain, they drove it home from the mechanic that failed it, and slashed all the tires themselves. The insurance CO only paid the prorated amount, as the tires were worn out in the first place, so this enterprising individual got pissed, and went and got a set of tires(That didn't match) from the local junk yard that had been slashed in a previous crime, had them mounted on the rims for the van, and then tried to claim a 2nd time that his tires had been vandalized again. I guess You all figured out that this moron is now in jail for insurance fraud?(For every one that is caught, 10 get away with it) The reason I am mentioning all of this is that I am trying to show all of You why and how Your insurance rates have been steadily rising over the last few years. The bad thing is that even though I am an agent, I still pay the same rates that everyone else pays. I also do not have a bucket truck, as I find them useless for over 99% of all the installs I do(I am sure there are some of us who would be lost without one?), and I can not justify the costs for a device that will sit around most of the time. Keep in mind that no matter who operates that bucket truck, and how careful they are, it only takes a split second for something bad to happen, and if that claim is not insured (Or the CO denys it) and it is a large loss, The person without the needed coverage will be the one getting screwed. It really could mean the difference
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
When you put it that way... It does bring a new perpective to think about. Well said. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it would be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting information. There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The first one is like Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have to, and the thought of using it doesn't really cross Your mind for all the reasons You mentioned below. If it were possible, I am sure that insurance CO's would love to find a way to discern the quality customers from the irresponsible ones, and charge lower rates based on this fact, and the fact that the bucket is only used once a month?. That sad part is there is no real way to do this, as insurance is based on the law of large #'s, and in order for it to work, everyone must be lumped together in one big pool(for lack of other words?). Your customer profile is fairly common though. I respect the fact that when the truck is in the field, only responsible operators like Yourself will be operating the bucket, being extra cautious as to whats going on around You and whats happening when the boom is moving etc. This is the way it should be at all times. Now lets move on to the second type of customer(The most uncommon, believe it or not?). This person usually does everything they can to cut corners, not only with work ethics and install qualities but also with their level of responsibilties in the day to day operation of their business. This customer will hire the cheapest employee that will work for them, skimp on safety and vehicle maintainence, owe $$ to most of the vendors he or she does business with and they will usually try and call their employees Sub-contractors, trying to avoid paying taxes and workmans compensation to make more $$(This is really an entirely different topic, but I am just using this as an example?). This risk taking carries over to things such as the safe use of a bucket truck. If You remember, I mentioned that the people that work for this person are really only there because they can not find a job anywhere else, and our business owner in question hires them because it is cheap labor. The day comes when the bucket truck is needed for an install, and our employee gets behind the wheel to do the job(Keep in mind that our employee was up half the night boozing with his/her friends, and just found it their spouse is messing with the neighbor). When at the job site, this employee will not have very good safety principles, and will do something really dumb like tear the service head for the electric off the wall of the house and tear down the cable CO's fiber line, along with the local Telco's phone systems. The reason I am mentioning all this is because for the most part, 10% of all insurance customers file 90% of the claims for reasons mentioned above. This same customer will also use their insurance policy as a maintainence contract, and try to get the insurance CO to pay for things that You or I would simply say, OK, this happened, but I will just fix it myself, as it was my fault in the first place. I dropped a 4ft piece of pipe off of the roof last year and it hit the only car parked on the entire street. It was an older car that already had 4000 dents and peeling paint, but the damage to the fender was $430. I just paid it, because it was stupidity in the first place, and I didn't want my rates to go up?. Now, the other side of this: We have an incidence where an individual needed new tires for inspection, so using their really smart brain, they drove it home from the mechanic that failed it, and slashed all the tires themselves. The insurance CO only paid the prorated amount, as the tires were worn out in the first place, so this enterprising individual got pissed, and went and got a set of tires(That didn't match) from the local junk yard that had been slashed in a previous crime, had them mounted on the rims for the van, and then tried to claim a 2nd time that his tires had been vandalized again. I guess You all figured out that this moron is now in jail for insurance fraud?(For every one that is caught, 10 get away with it) The reason I am mentioning all of this is that I am trying to show all of You why and how Your insurance rates have been steadily rising over the last few years. The bad thing is that even though I am an agent, I still pay the same rates that everyone else pays. I also do not have a bucket truck, as I find them useless for over 99% of all the installs I do(I am sure there are some of us who would be lost without one?), and I can not justify
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Hi, There are several other factors to consider here insurance on the vehicle itself is to cover if you damage someone else's property (vehicle) by getting into an accident on the road. You may also have full-coverage insurance to pay to fix the bucket truck itself. However, the other issue is general liability insurance... if you have someone in the bucket and they go thru someone's roof because they aren't paying attention, wouldn't that be covered by your general liability policy, rather than the auto insurance policy? Travis Microserv P.S. In almost 10 years in the wireless business, and well over 1,000,000 miles logged on over 20 wireless vehicles during that time (including several bucket trucks), we have never had an insurance claim... yet my rates continue to go up every year... :( Tom DeReggi wrote: When you put it that way... It does bring a new perpective to think about. Well said. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it would be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting information. There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The first one is like Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have to, and the thought of using it doesn't really cross Your mind for all the reasons You mentioned below. If it were possible, I am sure that insurance CO's would love to find a way to discern the quality customers from the irresponsible ones, and charge lower rates based on this fact, and the fact that the bucket is only used once a month?. That sad part is there is no real way to do this, as insurance is based on the law of large #'s, and in order for it to work, everyone must be lumped together in one big pool(for lack of other words?). Your customer profile is fairly common though. I respect the fact that when the truck is in the field, only responsible operators like Yourself will be operating the bucket, being extra cautious as to whats going on around You and whats happening when the boom is moving etc. This is the way it should be at all times. Now lets move on to the second type of customer(The most uncommon, believe it or not?). This person usually does everything they can to cut corners, not only with work ethics and install qualities but also with their level of responsibilties in the day to day operation of their business. This customer will hire the cheapest employee that will work for them, skimp on safety and vehicle maintainence, owe $$ to most of the vendors he or she does business with and they will usually try and call their employees Sub-contractors, trying to avoid paying taxes and workmans compensation to make more $$(This is really an entirely different topic, but I am just using this as an example?). This risk taking carries over to things such as the safe use of a bucket truck. If You remember, I mentioned that the people that work for this person are really only there because they can not find a job anywhere else, and our business owner in question hires them because it is cheap labor. The day comes when the bucket truck is needed for an install, and our employee gets behind the wheel to do the job(Keep in mind that our employee was up half the night boozing with his/her friends, and just found it their spouse is messing with the neighbor). When at the job site, this employee will not have very good safety principles, and will do something really dumb like tear the service head for the electric off the wall of the house and tear down the cable CO's fiber line, along with the local Telco's phone systems. The reason I am mentioning all this is because for the most part, 10% of all insurance customers file 90% of the claims for reasons mentioned above. This same customer will also use their insurance policy as a maintainence contract, and try to get the insurance CO to pay for things that You or I would simply say, OK, this happened, but I will just fix it myself, as it was my fault in the first place. I dropped a 4ft piece of pipe off of the roof last year and it hit the only car parked on the entire street. It was an older car that already had 4000 dents and peeling paint, but the damage to the fender was $430. I just paid it, because it was stupidity in the first place, and I didn't want my rates to go up?. Now, the other side of this: We have an incidence where an individual needed new tires for inspection, so using their really smart brain, they drove it home from the mechanic that failed it, and slashed all the tires themselves. The insurance CO only paid the prorated amount, as the tires were worn out in the first place, so this enterprising
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Travis brings up a good point I think. When I purchased insurance on my bucket truck, I specifically asked the agent about possible problems with it being a bucket truck, and he assured me that as far as the automotive liability insurance was concerned, the bucket had no effect, as any mis-haps involving the use of the bucket itself would not fall under automotive insurance policies. It would effect comprehensive insurance as the value of the truck would be increased, but my truck is old enough I just took liability on it. I too think issues with the use of the bucket would more likely be covered under my general liability policy, unless it was a case of employee injury (falling out of the bucket) which would fall under workman's comp. Meanwhile, I use the truck because it is so much safer for me (and any employee's I might hire) than working from a ladder. The holder of my general business liability may well disclaim any responsibility because they think it should be the automotive insurer's. :) I hope I never have to find out. John Travis Johnson wrote: Hi, There are several other factors to consider here insurance on the vehicle itself is to cover if you damage someone else's property (vehicle) by getting into an accident on the road. You may also have full-coverage insurance to pay to fix the bucket truck itself. However, the other issue is general liability insurance... if you have someone in the bucket and they go thru someone's roof because they aren't paying attention, wouldn't that be covered by your general liability policy, rather than the auto insurance policy? Travis Microserv P.S. In almost 10 years in the wireless business, and well over 1,000,000 miles logged on over 20 wireless vehicles during that time (including several bucket trucks), we have never had an insurance claim... yet my rates continue to go up every year... :( Tom DeReggi wrote: When you put it that way... It does bring a new perpective to think about. Well said. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it would be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting information. There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The first one is like Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have to, and the thought of using it doesn't really cross Your mind for all the reasons You mentioned below. If it were possible, I am sure that insurance CO's would love to find a way to discern the quality customers from the irresponsible ones, and charge lower rates based on this fact, and the fact that the bucket is only used once a month?. That sad part is there is no real way to do this, as insurance is based on the law of large #'s, and in order for it to work, everyone must be lumped together in one big pool(for lack of other words?). Your customer profile is fairly common though. I respect the fact that when the truck is in the field, only responsible operators like Yourself will be operating the bucket, being extra cautious as to whats going on around You and whats happening when the boom is moving etc. This is the way it should be at all times. Now lets move on to the second type of customer(The most uncommon, believe it or not?). This person usually does everything they can to cut corners, not only with work ethics and install qualities but also with their level of responsibilties in the day to day operation of their business. This customer will hire the cheapest employee that will work for them, skimp on safety and vehicle maintainence, owe $$ to most of the vendors he or she does business with and they will usually try and call their employees Sub-contractors, trying to avoid paying taxes and workmans compensation to make more $$(This is really an entirely different topic, but I am just using this as an example?). This risk taking carries over to things such as the safe use of a bucket truck. If You remember, I mentioned that the people that work for this person are really only there because they can not find a job anywhere else, and our business owner in question hires them because it is cheap labor. The day comes when the bucket truck is needed for an install, and our employee gets behind the wheel to do the job(Keep in mind that our employee was up half the night boozing with his/her friends, and just found it their spouse is messing with the neighbor). When at the job site, this employee will not have very good safety principles, and will do something really dumb like tear the service head for the electric off the wall of the house and tear down the cable CO's fiber line, along with the local Telco's phone
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
I disagree with that. Something isn't fraud, if no concious effort was made to hide something or deceive someone. Not being asked, is not being the same thing as hiding something. If you installed a new stereo system in your vehichle or a new ladder rack, would you call your insurance company and say, PLEASE RAISE MY RATES I JUST ADDED SOME MORE EXPENSIVE ACCESSORIES TO MY VEHICHLE. No of course not, and not doing that does not exclude coverage for those items added that are newly attached to the vehichle. If you ask to have a VAN covered, you are covering the VAN. If you didn't ask to have a bucket covered you aren't covering the bucket. There is no fraud because there was never an agreement or intent from either party to cover the bucket. Their was a mutual agreement to jsut cover the VAN. Therefore if the VAN was in a driving colission non-related to the bucket, the fact that a bucket was on it is irrelevent. Plus, the insurance company has an obligation to protect the other party that was hit. If not, uninsured motorists kicks in. The uninsured motorists covering that will then legally fight your insurance company to make them pay it instead, and only cover it themselves if lost battle. I'd never advise someone to lie on an insurance application. If you are asked if it has a bucket or accessories of releveance, then it should be disclosed. Many agents don't ask, and not even sure all applications have a check box for a bucket on a VAN. I know when I ask a bank to finance a VAN with a Bucket, they only appraise the vehichle as a VAN because Bucket isn't an accessory listed on their accessories to include on the VAN for acessing the value. One of the reasons I don;t have a VAN, because I can only get financing on Half the cost I'd pay for the VAN, and Blue book only considers the VAN itself. When a CLAIM is made to the insurance company, asking to cover the value of the VAN, they will go to the Blue Book and use it to define the VAN. Do you think the insurance comapny will add on the value of the Bucket? No way. You can use the insurance company's own standard policy of how they assess the value of the VAN when it would be covered, as the method to define what the VAN is. What makes a Bank's definition of what a VAN is any different than what an insurance company defines a VAN as? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:45 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. God forbid the van kills someone in a traffic accident unrelated to the bucket all together. The Insurance Company could and probably would deny the claim due to a falsified application. If an insurance company can find a way out of a claim (especially a costly one) they will. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Wolfe Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:14 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom DeReggi wrote: If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket! Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband As an insurance agent for the last 16 years in the state of PA(Besides running a WISP too for the last 5 years), I can tell You that there are some negatives to just Not mentioning the fact that it has a bucket on it. The first one is that when You sign the insurance application(This info. only applies to the state of PA where I am licensed, keep in mind the every state has different insurance laws, but almost ALL of them adopted the laws from the state of NY, as they were one of the first to actually clamp down and adopt them, and this is what PA uses), there is a paragraph that says all of the information You have submitted to the insurance CO is correct and You then sign underneath it. It is a great possibility that by omitting the fact that Your van had a bucket on it, the CO could deny Your claim based on the fact that You chose to omit the information about the bucket on purpose, as You knew this would stop You from securing coverage?. While I do understand that securing the proper insurance is becoming expensive, maybe even out of hand?, I do not want to see You or any other small CO lose everything buy trying to cut corners and get around something by being dishonest?. Almost all insurance have something called Good faith agreements in them. This Good Faith agreement is based on upon the fact that both You and the insurance CO have been up front and honest with each other about what coverages You are receiving from the CO and what type of risk the CO is actually insuring. They fulfill their half by giving You a policy that specificly states what
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Excellent point Travis. It would be covered under business liabilty insurance and/or workman's comp. Auto insurance is meant to cover the driver or other guy that got hurt in a driving accident. Never once heard of a bucket contributing to a driving accident with another vehichle. Unless of course you were driving down the road and forgot to lower the boom before driving away :-) Your business liabilty insurance is also more appropriate for this, as you classify what type of business you are in. Using it as a lineman, home construction, or Computer Networking can be considered and has required provisions for defining that in the agreement. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Hi, There are several other factors to consider here insurance on the vehicle itself is to cover if you damage someone else's property (vehicle) by getting into an accident on the road. You may also have full-coverage insurance to pay to fix the bucket truck itself. However, the other issue is general liability insurance... if you have someone in the bucket and they go thru someone's roof because they aren't paying attention, wouldn't that be covered by your general liability policy, rather than the auto insurance policy? Travis Microserv P.S. In almost 10 years in the wireless business, and well over 1,000,000 miles logged on over 20 wireless vehicles during that time (including several bucket trucks), we have never had an insurance claim... yet my rates continue to go up every year... :( Tom DeReggi wrote: When you put it that way... It does bring a new perpective to think about. Well said. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it would be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting information. There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The first one is like Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have to, and the thought of using it doesn't really cross Your mind for all the reasons You mentioned below. If it were possible, I am sure that insurance CO's would love to find a way to discern the quality customers from the irresponsible ones, and charge lower rates based on this fact, and the fact that the bucket is only used once a month?. That sad part is there is no real way to do this, as insurance is based on the law of large #'s, and in order for it to work, everyone must be lumped together in one big pool(for lack of other words?). Your customer profile is fairly common though. I respect the fact that when the truck is in the field, only responsible operators like Yourself will be operating the bucket, being extra cautious as to whats going on around You and whats happening when the boom is moving etc. This is the way it should be at all times. Now lets move on to the second type of customer(The most uncommon, believe it or not?). This person usually does everything they can to cut corners, not only with work ethics and install qualities but also with their level of responsibilties in the day to day operation of their business. This customer will hire the cheapest employee that will work for them, skimp on safety and vehicle maintainence, owe $$ to most of the vendors he or she does business with and they will usually try and call their employees Sub-contractors, trying to avoid paying taxes and workmans compensation to make more $$(This is really an entirely different topic, but I am just using this as an example?). This risk taking carries over to things such as the safe use of a bucket truck. If You remember, I mentioned that the people that work for this person are really only there because they can not find a job anywhere else, and our business owner in question hires them because it is cheap labor. The day comes when the bucket truck is needed for an install, and our employee gets behind the wheel to do the job(Keep in mind that our employee was up half the night boozing with his/her friends, and just found it their spouse is messing with the neighbor). When at the job site, this employee will not have very good safety principles, and will do something really dumb like tear the service head for the electric off the wall of the house and tear down the cable CO's fiber line, along with the local Telco's phone systems. The reason I am mentioning all this is because for the most part, 10% of all insurance customers file 90% of the
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Tom DeReggi wrote: Excellent point Travis. It would be covered under business liabilty insurance and/or workman's comp. Auto insurance is meant to cover the driver or other guy that got hurt in a driving accident. Never once heard of a bucket contributing to a driving accident with another vehichle. Unless of course you were driving down the road and forgot to lower the boom before driving away :-) Your business liabilty insurance is also more appropriate for this, as you classify what type of business you are in. Using it as a lineman, home construction, or Computer Networking can be considered and has required provisions for defining that in the agreement. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:03 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom, Wrong answer about the business liability insurance :-) . In most states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or its use. For instance, in PA, if You close the van door on Your hand(even if the vehicle is parked and not moving) and break it, Your auto insurance has to pay the medical bills. If the operator of the bucket truck sends it through the roof of the house they are working on, then the property damage coverage of Your auto policy(primary) kicks in and pays for the roof. There is a chance that Your business insurance(GL or general liability) policy would cover You on a secondary basis if the coverage on the auto policy was not enough and You were sued for the difference?(Varies by state). The legal term for this is called the proximate cause of the accident or problem, and since the bucket was attached to the van, the auto policy will cover it. This is why Your insurance CO is pitching a fit about the bucket. Here is some more insurance trivia that all of You should be aware of, as I for one hate surprises. Did You know that if at the end of Your employees shift, You ask that person to drop off a check, contract, pick up a part at radio shack etc. and they are involved in an accident, You are going to be sued right along with Your employee and their (employee's)private auto insurer will more than likely deny the claim, as most personal lines policies do not cover any type of business use, period. The idea here is that the accident in question would have never occured if You had not asked the employee to run an errand for You. We also have some of us business owners that do not own any private vehicles. If everything You own is insured commercially?, Do Not EVER rent a vehicle unless Your Business auto policy has drive other car coverage, because if it doesn't?, You will be paying the bill for the accident, as most commercial auto policies only cover the vehicles listed on it, and if it 'aint there?, It 'aint covered. :-( -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
We dropped it and parked the truck for now. When it's time to use it again I'll probably just have the insurance set up so that I'm the only one that can use the truck. Our insurance is a wreck these days. The costs have shot up so high it's almost impossible to afford any. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Dylan Bouterse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:22 AM Subject: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work? Dylan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket! Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. We dropped it and parked the truck for now. When it's time to use it again I'll probably just have the insurance set up so that I'm the only one that can use the truck. Our insurance is a wreck these days. The costs have shot up so high it's almost impossible to afford any. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Dylan Bouterse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:22 AM Subject: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work? Dylan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Yup yup yup. Ours is a Ford F-350 4x4. :) Travis Microserv Tom DeReggi wrote: If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket! Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:30 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. We dropped it and parked the truck for now. When it's time to use it again I'll probably just have the insurance set up so that I'm the only one that can use the truck. Our insurance is a wreck these days. The costs have shot up so high it's almost impossible to afford any. Marlon (509) 982-2181 Equipment sales (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp! 64.146.146.12 (net meeting) www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Dylan Bouterse [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:22 AM Subject: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work? Dylan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
Tom DeReggi wrote: If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket! Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband As an insurance agent for the last 16 years in the state of PA(Besides running a WISP too for the last 5 years), I can tell You that there are some negatives to just Not mentioning the fact that it has a bucket on it. The first one is that when You sign the insurance application(This info. only applies to the state of PA where I am licensed, keep in mind the every state has different insurance laws, but almost ALL of them adopted the laws from the state of NY, as they were one of the first to actually clamp down and adopt them, and this is what PA uses), there is a paragraph that says all of the information You have submitted to the insurance CO is correct and You then sign underneath it. It is a great possibility that by omitting the fact that Your van had a bucket on it, the CO could deny Your claim based on the fact that You chose to omit the information about the bucket on purpose, as You knew this would stop You from securing coverage?. While I do understand that securing the proper insurance is becoming expensive, maybe even out of hand?, I do not want to see You or any other small CO lose everything buy trying to cut corners and get around something by being dishonest?. Almost all insurance have something called Good faith agreements in them. This Good Faith agreement is based on upon the fact that both You and the insurance CO have been up front and honest with each other about what coverages You are receiving from the CO and what type of risk the CO is actually insuring. They fulfill their half by giving You a policy that specificly states what they will and will not pay for, and You fulfill Your responsibility by filling out the application with all of Your information so that the insurance CO can decide what to charge You based upon the information You provided them. If You lie, or as the politicly correct term used is Omit some vital information that would stop the CO from issuing insurance, then the contract is broken by You right up front, and this fact alone could cause You some grave financial harm if You employee tears down some fiber and/or phone lines. Just some food for thought. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
God forbid the van kills someone in a traffic accident unrelated to the bucket all together. The Insurance Company could and probably would deny the claim due to a falsified application. If an insurance company can find a way out of a claim (especially a costly one) they will. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Wolfe Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:14 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom DeReggi wrote: If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket! Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband As an insurance agent for the last 16 years in the state of PA(Besides running a WISP too for the last 5 years), I can tell You that there are some negatives to just Not mentioning the fact that it has a bucket on it. The first one is that when You sign the insurance application(This info. only applies to the state of PA where I am licensed, keep in mind the every state has different insurance laws, but almost ALL of them adopted the laws from the state of NY, as they were one of the first to actually clamp down and adopt them, and this is what PA uses), there is a paragraph that says all of the information You have submitted to the insurance CO is correct and You then sign underneath it. It is a great possibility that by omitting the fact that Your van had a bucket on it, the CO could deny Your claim based on the fact that You chose to omit the information about the bucket on purpose, as You knew this would stop You from securing coverage?. While I do understand that securing the proper insurance is becoming expensive, maybe even out of hand?, I do not want to see You or any other small CO lose everything buy trying to cut corners and get around something by being dishonest?. Almost all insurance have something called Good faith agreements in them. This Good Faith agreement is based on upon the fact that both You and the insurance CO have been up front and honest with each other about what coverages You are receiving from the CO and what type of risk the CO is actually insuring. They fulfill their half by giving You a policy that specificly states what they will and will not pay for, and You fulfill Your responsibility by filling out the application with all of Your information so that the insurance CO can decide what to charge You based upon the information You provided them. If You lie, or as the politicly correct term used is Omit some vital information that would stop the CO from issuing insurance, then the contract is broken by You right up front, and this fact alone could cause You some grave financial harm if You employee tears down some fiber and/or phone lines. Just some food for thought. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
You might have your agent try Progressive. Ours is listed as a ladder/bucket truck and they never said that was a problem. It's $2200/yr with collision and a million liability. Seems expensive to me but Florida insurance rates are just that way. - cw Dylan Bouterse wrote: I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work? Dylan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
In NY I have to take the vehicle to the insurance company so they can verify ownership and vehicle net worth I would not be able to hide that the vehicle is a bucket truck We presently rent a bucket truck from unitef rental which includes insurance. 3000 per month Bob Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -Original Message- From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:45:53 To:'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Subject: RE: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. God forbid the van kills someone in a traffic accident unrelated to the bucket all together. The Insurance Company could and probably would deny the claim due to a falsified application. If an insurance company can find a way out of a claim (especially a costly one) they will. Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tim Wolfe Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:14 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. Tom DeReggi wrote: If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket! Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck! Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband As an insurance agent for the last 16 years in the state of PA(Besides running a WISP too for the last 5 years), I can tell You that there are some negatives to just Not mentioning the fact that it has a bucket on it. The first one is that when You sign the insurance application(This info. only applies to the state of PA where I am licensed, keep in mind the every state has different insurance laws, but almost ALL of them adopted the laws from the state of NY, as they were one of the first to actually clamp down and adopt them, and this is what PA uses), there is a paragraph that says all of the information You have submitted to the insurance CO is correct and You then sign underneath it. It is a great possibility that by omitting the fact that Your van had a bucket on it, the CO could deny Your claim based on the fact that You chose to omit the information about the bucket on purpose, as You knew this would stop You from securing coverage?. While I do understand that securing the proper insurance is becoming expensive, maybe even out of hand?, I do not want to see You or any other small CO lose everything buy trying to cut corners and get around something by being dishonest?. Almost all insurance have something called Good faith agreements in them. This Good Faith agreement is based on upon the fact that both You and the insurance CO have been up front and honest with each other about what coverages You are receiving from the CO and what type of risk the CO is actually insuring. They fulfill their half by giving You a policy that specificly states what they will and will not pay for, and You fulfill Your responsibility by filling out the application with all of Your information so that the insurance CO can decide what to charge You based upon the information You provided them. If You lie, or as the politicly correct term used is Omit some vital information that would stop the CO from issuing insurance, then the contract is broken by You right up front, and this fact alone could cause You some grave financial harm if You employee tears down some fiber and/or phone lines. Just some food for thought. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
