Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
Two quick thoughts: 1) If it was so easy to encrypt, more would do so. These things are to catch the mastermind genius, which thankfully are few and far between, but to catch the idiots. And most people are surrounded by idiots. Why even... never mind. If encryption was easy, PGP would be universal and Enron and company would not have been embarrassed by the emails. 2) I get that CALEA - and other gov't induced regulation - is one big PITA and should be fought. But, ya know, it is VERY freaking hard to get any support to fight these measures. (How many volunteered to go to DC?) Even you posted anonymously, so how do you get support? And since you won't use your identity here, I assume that getting you to post to the FCC or write a Congress Critter or anything wouldn't happen. Lemmings? No. But it is, IMO, better to help people who want to comply - to provide information, solutions, thoughts. Since we are under a deadline, spending the little time to comply is what I see as a productive use of my time. I get calls from frightened owners who don't know how to comply, who have vendors scaring them into a $800 per month box, who get varying answers to questions from different sources. So this is how I choose to direct my effort. If you and Mark and others want to spend this time period re-directing the Lemmings to run up Capital Hill, be my guest. But it would be just as effective to do this on May 15, after we have helped the many who want to comply. That's my 25 cents. Peter @ RAD-INFO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another two cents that may or may not be worth ANYTHING at all. RANT I have sat back and observed for some time now (with much disdain) as the 'herd' runs as fast as we can toward the cliff. I am still waiting to see if the herd (WE) turn out to be lemmings or not, but the cliff is quickly and abruptly approaching. 1. CALEA compliance for WISPs... 1. WHY? 1. Members really perceive it will foster increased national security. * Not really, there are numerous open sourced encryption / traffic scramble techniques which render useless a raw packet stream capture. (These efforts are born of a noble cause, that of subverting tyrannical government communications interceptions, primarily focused upon subverting the effort of governments known for human rights violations like North Korea, China, etc.) But one must presume that these same tools can and will be employed by criminals with malice, as well as employed for good PATRIOTS in these other unfortunate circumstances / countries. o mac spoofing, onion routing, anonymous relay, hybrid layer X techniques o non standards based file / data encryption techniques o Steganography , Mnemonics, NUMEROUS Crypts / Cyphers o Combinations of the above plus more! 2. Because Carnivore's commercial replacement is not doing the job already? * The FED has replaced the Carnivore program with an amendment to CALEA, and it is a move which transferred the costs of the program from the government to you! The feds already have the technology to do this, they just decided they wanted you to pay for it. * Why don't we observe (in time frame context) some EOIs (Events of interest) o In late 2004 it is becoming more apparent that the RBOC battles over muni-wireless are losing ground, despite lobby dollars and presumably, promises of legislation supporting the RBOCs effort. o Additionally, in late 2004 the CLECs really started eyeballing these WISP guys and it occurred to the CLECs that what the WISPs had going was GOOD. Rather than re-invent the wheel with traditional wired facilities, (UNE was dead or dying at this time), so we began initiatives to re-organize accordingly. o But alas, they did not go so far as to form tight alliances to the WISP community. Regardless, the die was cast. WISPs had made ripples to the very tops of the incumbent carrier realm via the interest put forth by the CLECs. o http://www.public-i.org/telecom/report.aspx?aid=744 Take some time to REALLY observe the changes taking place in ILEC, RBOC, and CABLECO lobby spending during 2003-2006. Notice how they increased HUGELY and now
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS? - Libraries
About libraries and CALEA: When the FCC extended CALEA to all facilities-based broadband Internet access providers in September 2005, it deemed it not to be in the public interest at that time to extend CALEA to libraries “that acquire broadband Internet access service from a facilities-based provider to enable their patrons or customers to access the Internet.” Thus, any library that acquires its Internet access from another provider has no CALEA obligation whatsoever. The access provider may be a commercial ISP or a state or local network operator, or a university or college. It does not matter which under the FCC’s reasoning -- libraries are exempt. Even Universities have to be Compliant under certain conditions. Peter @ RAD-INFO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another two cents that may or may not be worth ANYTHING at all. RANT I have sat back and observed for some time now (with much disdain) as the 'herd' runs as fast as we can toward the cliff. I am still waiting to see if the herd (WE) turn out to be lemmings or not, but the cliff is quickly and abruptly approaching. 1. CALEA compliance for WISPs... 1. WHY? 1. Members really perceive it will foster increased national security. * Not really, there are numerous open sourced encryption / traffic scramble techniques which render useless a raw packet stream capture. (These efforts are born of a noble cause, that of subverting tyrannical government communications interceptions, primarily focused upon subverting the effort of governments known for human rights violations like North Korea, China, etc.) But one must presume that these same tools can and will be employed by criminals with malice, as well as employed for good PATRIOTS in these other unfortunate circumstances / countries. o mac spoofing, onion routing, anonymous relay, hybrid layer X techniques o non standards based file / data encryption techniques o Steganography , Mnemonics, NUMEROUS Crypts / Cyphers o Combinations of the above plus more! 2. Because Carnivore's commercial replacement is not doing the job already? * The FED has replaced the Carnivore program with an amendment to CALEA, and it is a move which transferred the costs of the program from the government to you! The feds already have the technology to do this, they just decided they wanted you to pay for it. * Why don't we observe (in time frame context) some EOIs (Events of interest) o In late 2004 it is becoming more apparent that the RBOC battles over muni-wireless are losing ground, despite lobby dollars and presumably, promises of legislation supporting the RBOCs effort. o Additionally, in late 2004 the CLECs really started eyeballing these WISP guys and it occurred to the CLECs that what the WISPs had going was GOOD. Rather than re-invent the wheel with traditional wired facilities, (UNE was dead or dying at this time), so we began initiatives to re-organize accordingly. o But alas, they did not go so far as to form tight alliances to the WISP community. Regardless, the die was cast. WISPs had made ripples to the very tops of the incumbent carrier realm via the interest put forth by the CLECs. o http://www.public-i.org/telecom/report.aspx?aid=744 Take some time to REALLY observe the changes taking place in ILEC, RBOC, and CABLECO lobby spending during 2003-2006. Notice how they increased HUGELY and now encompassed not only Federal, but now also STATE / LOCAL levels of government? Notice how your business value as a WISP has eroded during this same time frame? 3. It is the Law o hmm MLK, was a law breaker. Well, I suppose that if a law were entered into record requiring that your children be implanted with RFID or some other tracking system, you would call a meeting to see how you can most efficiently comply? o Can't happen you say? Ok, suppose a law gets voted in that requires child inoculation. Next suppose that same law gets amended w/o voter over site to also include RFID implant.
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
For your info, It is very easy to encrypt. there are plenty of easy to use tools for using impossible to break encryption. if you can use hotmail, you can use hushmail. The fact is that in my conversation with people I have discovered that they just don't care to encrypt.. I don't have anything to hide they say. not realizing that every time they use an email client to log into their pop account, their username and password is sent in the clear, easily intercepted by the novice computer user who happens to download ethereal and see what interesting things are happening on your WISP. (Unless you are smart, and kindly provided ssl or tls email accounts for them.) If you will remember, Mr. Bin Laden found it worth his while to take 5 minutes to learn to use PGP and a little stegonography, and I think that anyone with ill intent and half a brain will figure it out too. These CALEA tools are not intended to catch the real criminals, terrorists, etc. because they will in the first place not be a subscriber when they send their encrypted message through your network. Currently most people trust that the Gov is abiding by the law, but if they had reason to believe that all their phone conversations and all their web traffic was being spied upon, they might change their habits. Good day! Steve - Peter R. wrote: Two quick thoughts: 1) If it was so easy to encrypt, more would do so. These things are to catch the mastermind genius, which thankfully are few and far between, but to catch the idiots. And most people are surrounded by idiots. Why even... never mind. If encryption was easy, PGP would be universal and Enron and company would not have been embarrassed by the emails. 2) I get that CALEA - and other gov't induced regulation - is one big PITA and should be fought. But, ya know, it is VERY freaking hard to get any support to fight these measures. (How many volunteered to go to DC?) Even you posted anonymously, so how do you get support? And since you won't use your identity here, I assume that getting you to post to the FCC or write a Congress Critter or anything wouldn't happen. Lemmings? No. But it is, IMO, better to help people who want to comply - to provide information, solutions, thoughts. Since we are under a deadline, spending the little time to comply is what I see as a productive use of my time. I get calls from frightened owners who don't know how to comply, who have vendors scaring them into a $800 per month box, who get varying answers to questions from different sources. So this is how I choose to direct my effort. If you and Mark and others want to spend this time period re-directing the Lemmings to run up Capital Hill, be my guest. But it would be just as effective to do this on May 15, after we have helped the many who want to comply. That's my 25 cents. Peter @ RAD-INFO [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another two cents that may or may not be worth ANYTHING at all. RANT I have sat back and observed for some time now (with much disdain) as the 'herd' runs as fast as we can toward the cliff. I am still waiting to see if the herd (WE) turn out to be lemmings or not, but the cliff is quickly and abruptly approaching. 1. CALEA compliance for WISPs... 1. WHY? 1. Members really perceive it will foster increased national security. * Not really, there are numerous open sourced encryption / traffic scramble techniques which render useless a raw packet stream capture. (These efforts are born of a noble cause, that of subverting tyrannical government communications interceptions, primarily focused upon subverting the effort of governments known for human rights violations like North Korea, China, etc.) But one must presume that these same tools can and will be employed by criminals with malice, as well as employed for good PATRIOTS in these other unfortunate circumstances / countries. o mac spoofing, onion routing, anonymous relay, hybrid layer X techniques o non standards based file / data encryption techniques o Steganography , Mnemonics, NUMEROUS Crypts / Cyphers o Combinations of the above plus more! 2. Because Carnivore's commercial replacement is not doing the job already? * The FED has replaced the Carnivore program with an amendment to CALEA, and it is a move which transferred the costs of the program from the government to you! The feds already have the technology to do this, they just decided they wanted you to pay for it.
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
All nicely stated. So, what do you think we should be DOING? Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2007 6:33 PM Subject: [WISPA] LEMMINGS? Another two cents that may or may not be worth ANYTHING at all. RANT I have sat back and observed for some time now (with much disdain) as the 'herd' runs as fast as we can toward the cliff. I am still waiting to see if the herd (WE) turn out to be lemmings or not, but the cliff is quickly and abruptly approaching. 1. CALEA compliance for WISPs... 1. WHY? 1. Members really perceive it will foster increased national security. * Not really, there are numerous open sourced encryption / traffic scramble techniques which render useless a raw packet stream capture. (These efforts are born of a noble cause, that of subverting tyrannical government communications interceptions, primarily focused upon subverting the effort of governments known for human rights violations like North Korea, China, etc.) But one must presume that these same tools can and will be employed by criminals with malice, as well as employed for good PATRIOTS in these other unfortunate circumstances / countries. o mac spoofing, onion routing, anonymous relay, hybrid layer X techniques o non standards based file / data encryption techniques o Steganography , Mnemonics, NUMEROUS Crypts / Cyphers o Combinations of the above plus more! 2. Because Carnivore's commercial replacement is not doing the job already? * The FED has replaced the Carnivore program with an amendment to CALEA, and it is a move which transferred the costs of the program from the government to you! The feds already have the technology to do this, they just decided they wanted you to pay for it. * Why don't we observe (in time frame context) some EOIs (Events of interest) o In late 2004 it is becoming more apparent that the RBOC battles over muni-wireless are losing ground, despite lobby dollars and presumably, promises of legislation supporting the RBOCs effort. o Additionally, in late 2004 the CLECs really started eyeballing these WISP guys and it occurred to the CLECs that what the WISPs had going was GOOD. Rather than re-invent the wheel with traditional wired facilities, (UNE was dead or dying at this time), so we began initiatives to re-organize accordingly. o But alas, they did not go so far as to form tight alliances to the WISP community. Regardless, the die was cast. WISPs had made ripples to the very tops of the incumbent carrier realm via the interest put forth by the CLECs. o http://www.public-i.org/telecom/report.aspx?aid=744 Take some time to REALLY observe the changes taking place in ILEC, RBOC, and CABLECO lobby spending during 2003-2006. Notice how they increased HUGELY and now encompassed not only Federal, but now also STATE / LOCAL levels of government? Notice how your business value as a WISP has eroded during this same time frame? 3. It is the Law o hmm MLK, was a law breaker. Well, I suppose that if a law were entered into record requiring that your children be implanted with RFID or some other tracking system, you would call a meeting to see how you can most efficiently comply? o Can't happen you say? Ok, suppose a law gets voted in that requires child inoculation. Next suppose that same law gets amended w/o voter over site to also include RFID implant. Well that is essentially what has transpired with CALEA. o When CALEA was written (circa 1994) its reason of creation was to address the digitally switched networking equipment en vogue at RBOC / ILEC facilities. To be able to lawfully intercept the CDR (call detail records) of a SUSPECT. o Ok, it is the law, is it being applied to: + Public libraries whom provide Internet access? NO + Starbucks, McDonalds, Lowes, and other major corps whom provide public access wifi hotspots? NO + http://www.ala.org/ala/washoff/woissues/techinttele/calea/caleajan07.pdf 4. It is Patriotic... o Way wrong, observe the historical definition of patriotism. The label of patriot has historically been applied to groups rebelling. + # Patriots (Founding Fathers of USA, rebelled against England) # Patriots (Dutch group that rebelled against the Orangists in the United Provinces in the 18th century.) # Les Patriotes, those who supported independence for what is now Québec, Canada, during the Lower Canada Rebellion. o I think it would more define Patriotic if we had made efforts in the following areas: + Contacting our subscribers to notify them, and attempt to collect and coordinate their feelings about this. + Operating as a group to notify the FCC that they should review the form 447 filings that have been made, so they could calculate the impact
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
BTW, I never said not to fight it. I think that a majority of people want to comply and that should be the short term aim. Fighting it should have been done earlier, but can certainly be done now (or after May 14). It will just be harder. I would suggest those that want to fight should contact the American Library Assoc. or ACE who are fighting the lost appeal. At this point in the court process, there will be room for an Amicus Brief if it is Appealed by ALA or ACE and is taken by the Supreme Court. The Amicus Brief costs about $20K to get a lawyer to write. (That's correct, we were quoted $20K for Brand-X). You can start a new lawsuit (about $50K). Or you can start writing Congress. Grass roots. Change the law. Yelling at the Feds or FCC will not change anything. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another two cents that may or may not be worth ANYTHING at all. Hi, Mark's sock puppet who writes like Tim May. Members really perceive it will foster increased national security. Anyone who believes that is, at best, delusional. I assume most of us are already quite aware that the villains have ways of making traffic difficult or impossible to use, even if it is lawfully intercepted. CALEA will probably catch a few really dumb crooks, but that's about it. It's being done because it's (basically) a law. That's it. If you don't like it (and I'm sure a lot of folks on this list don't like it, even if they're hesitant to admit publicly to that fact), try to change it. Ranting may make people feel better but it doesn't accomplish very much. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
- Original Message - From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:10 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another two cents that may or may not be worth ANYTHING at all. Hi, Mark's sock puppet who writes like Tim May. Oh, please... you guys are getting absurd.I have no sock puppets, and while I am rather perturbed about the actions going on, I have tried not to be personal with anyone over the issues, and my best to not make it about persons or personalities, but to try to argue about ideas and what WISPA should do. You may look with disdain upon the idea of having WISPA get down and into the trenches of resisting excess regulation, but that's no reason to start campaigns to personally villify ANYONE. We should be able to disagree - me included - without insult or personal affront, here. I know, due to the emails I get, that a lot of readers on this list are in considerable agreement on some point or other, but won't say anything, because they don't want to be the targets of personal attacks. Let's not let this degenerate. Certainly, our reputations can be hurt far more by ill advised personal sniping, while good open and serious debate can do little but improve relations. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
On 4/19/07, Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as Patrick Henry once said Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Who is Patrick Henry?? /end sarcasm Seriously tho, I do not remember that being a quote from him but from Patrick Stewart. I happen to like: The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
I think Steve's point was to contrast Patrick Henry's determination with some people's attitude that resistance is futile. Frankly, I think EVERY WISP should file that they are NOT compliant and have no prospect of being. The FCC would simply be snowed under attempting to deal with HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS of individual cases and would end up having to make some kind of change in the way they do business. I don't know how many people work there, but for them to adequately deal with 500, 1000, or even 10,000 cannot comply filings, well, I KNOW they can't.This would force changes in the way they expect to deal with such a diverse and LARGE group.They're used to regulating industries with a handful of players. For them to take on regulating an industry with more operators than telephone companies, radio stations, and cell phone operators combined is a challenge far beyond what I think they had any inkling they would be required to do. - Original Message - From: Jeromie Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS? On 4/26/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeromie Reeves wrote: On 4/19/07, Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as Patrick Henry once said Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Who is Patrick Henry?? Didn't Patrick Henry say Give me liberty or give me death? Yes he did. Your chopping off my sarcasm tag misrepresents my words. The quote in my email was also by Patrick Henry. Steve attributed Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. to Mr. Henry but I do not remember him ever saying it (course I was a bit young back in the 1700's and my memory is not what it once was.). -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
Precisely.. Misquote was intentional.;) Patrick Henry never would have said such diabolical words. Just wanted to get the gears turning for those who remember what Patrick /really/ said! -- Jeromie Reeves wrote: On 4/26/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeromie Reeves wrote: On 4/19/07, Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as Patrick Henry once said Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Who is Patrick Henry?? Didn't Patrick Henry say Give me liberty or give me death? Yes he did. Your chopping off my sarcasm tag misrepresents my words. The quote in my email was also by Patrick Henry. Steve attributed Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. to Mr. Henry but I do not remember him ever saying it (course I was a bit young back in the 1700's and my memory is not what it once was.). -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
Mark, At this point you are beating a dead horse. We know how you feel about the government and following the laws put in place for your protection. But to be honest with you this is getting old. We need to change the focus of this conversation on how to comply with these rules not how much we should disregard them. I doubt civil disobedience will work in this case not with the small number of WISP's we are talking about here. If this type of discussion keeps this up the FCC could just regulate the WISP industry out of existence. I doubt that is what your end goal is. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Mark Koskenmaki wrote: I think Steve's point was to contrast Patrick Henry's determination with some people's attitude that resistance is futile. Frankly, I think EVERY WISP should file that they are NOT compliant and have no prospect of being. The FCC would simply be snowed under attempting to deal with HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS of individual cases and would end up having to make some kind of change in the way they do business. I don't know how many people work there, but for them to adequately deal with 500, 1000, or even 10,000 cannot comply filings, well, I KNOW they can't.This would force changes in the way they expect to deal with such a diverse and LARGE group.They're used to regulating industries with a handful of players. For them to take on regulating an industry with more operators than telephone companies, radio stations, and cell phone operators combined is a challenge far beyond what I think they had any inkling they would be required to do. - Original Message - From: Jeromie Reeves [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 11:15 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS? On 4/26/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeromie Reeves wrote: On 4/19/07, Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as Patrick Henry once said Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Who is Patrick Henry?? Didn't Patrick Henry say Give me liberty or give me death? Yes he did. Your chopping off my sarcasm tag misrepresents my words. The quote in my email was also by Patrick Henry. Steve attributed Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. to Mr. Henry but I do not remember him ever saying it (course I was a bit young back in the 1700's and my memory is not what it once was.). -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
It's more likely that you would get 100 maximum to say I can't comply, since most won't want to make themselves known. And those 100 would be contacted. Cripes only a few hundred filled out the 477... you think a few thousand would light a bonfire? Mark Koskenmaki wrote: I think Steve's point was to contrast Patrick Henry's determination with some people's attitude that resistance is futile. Frankly, I think EVERY WISP should file that they are NOT compliant and have no prospect of being. The FCC would simply be snowed under attempting to deal with HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS of individual cases and would end up having to make some kind of change in the way they do business. I don't know how many people work there, but for them to adequately deal with 500, 1000, or even 10,000 cannot comply filings, well, I KNOW they can't.This would force changes in the way they expect to deal with such a diverse and LARGE group.They're used to regulating industries with a handful of players. For them to take on regulating an industry with more operators than telephone companies, radio stations, and cell phone operators combined is a challenge far beyond what I think they had any inkling they would be required to do. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Lemmings - suggestions
Mr. Hush, Excellent plan. What agenda item will you be working on first? SUGGESTIONS of what to do: 1) Inform the AP / UPI that as an industry group, we have decided to stage a cyclic disconnect from public Inet in protest. Any volunteers to write and distribute this Press Release? 2) As a group, inform the subs what we are doing so they are not in the dark and clueless. Try to recruit their support. Tell your customers that they are no longer getting Internet? 3) Present to the press the WISPA member total subs count, and ask for the FCC / Gov to really evaluate the economic impact to GDP per state / national level that shutting off wisps would result in. No one knows this number, but you can take the count from the 477 forms. It was about 2% right? 4) Also, notify NCTA to please issue a revised broadband survey report with wisp networks removed, thus likely bring the USA from 30th in the world to 40th or 50th in broadband deployment. This MAY have other consequences such as the world bank / OECD may feel obligated to stick their noses into the USA political processes. 2-3% won't matter 5) Most IMPORTANTLY... Expend resources to properly investigate, report, and expose the apparent impropriety that exists in telco / cableco lobby connections to the DOJ and SEC. Budget??? 6) Begin in an honest effort to negotiate / create secured WIRELESS and/or wholly operator owned wired interconnects amongst WISPA/CLEC networks. ?? 7) Publish ideas for encouraging CO-OP style community network ownership. ?? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
Steve, well you did get me thinking about him (and my best remembered quote from him). On 4/26/07, Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's more likely that you would get 100 maximum to say I can't comply, since most won't want to make themselves known. And those 100 would be contacted. Cripes only a few hundred filled out the 477... you think a few thousand would light a bonfire? Mark Koskenmaki wrote: I think Steve's point was to contrast Patrick Henry's determination with some people's attitude that resistance is futile. Frankly, I think EVERY WISP should file that they are NOT compliant and have no prospect of being. The FCC would simply be snowed under attempting to deal with HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS of individual cases and would end up having to make some kind of change in the way they do business. I don't know how many people work there, but for them to adequately deal with 500, 1000, or even 10,000 cannot comply filings, well, I KNOW they can't.This would force changes in the way they expect to deal with such a diverse and LARGE group.They're used to regulating industries with a handful of players. For them to take on regulating an industry with more operators than telephone companies, radio stations, and cell phone operators combined is a challenge far beyond what I think they had any inkling they would be required to do. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
I may not agree with everything Mark is saying, but CALEA is more about Gov't control and convenience than our protection. Running a small business is hard enough without being regulated into oblivion. Mark McElvy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dawn DiPietro Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS? Mark, At this point you are beating a dead horse. We know how you feel about the government and following the laws put in place for your protection. But to be honest with you this is getting old. We need to change the focus of this conversation on how to comply with these rules not how much we should disregard them. I doubt civil disobedience will work in this case not with the small number of WISP's we are talking about here. If this type of discussion keeps this up the FCC could just regulate the WISP industry out of existence. I doubt that is what your end goal is. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Lemmings - suggestions
- Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 12:14 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Lemmings - suggestions Mr. Hush, Excellent plan. What agenda item will you be working on first? SUGGESTIONS of what to do: 1) Inform the AP / UPI that as an industry group, we have decided to stage a cyclic disconnect from public Inet in protest. Any volunteers to write and distribute this Press Release? Nobody can write for WISPA except WISPA people, either authorized or designated by management. 2) As a group, inform the subs what we are doing so they are not in the dark and clueless. Try to recruit their support. Tell your customers that they are no longer getting Internet? Naw, write a letter to your subs. Dear customer, I started delivering affordable broadband several years ago, in a free and open environment, where the services I offer were not restricted nor taxed, nor controlled by any state or federal regulatory agency. Recently, the FCC has reversed this trend, and has mandated that I provide the ability to tap and deeply examine, and then provide requested information from the traffic that travels to your home / office / computer / etc. The costs of this are as yet unknown, and my ability to provide you affordable broadband is in serious jeopardy. While assisting law enforcement's legitemate need to track down criminal, criminal activity, and other hazards to our community and / or nation is not objectionable to us, and we in fact wish to help where we can, the FCC has decided that providers will bear the costs of compliance with as yet undetermined requirements. This mandate upon my business could very well put me out of business with no notice whatsoever, and leave you without service unexpectedly. I would encourage you to read the FCC's comments and rules at www.fcc.gov and to contact your representatives at the federal level and the FCC to ask why your internet service must be placed under the control of the federal government, putting your ability to get affordable broadband at risk. There are some options, one is to simply duck the law, and hope enforcment never catches us. Another is just to pre-emptively shut down and find other means of earning a living, but losing all my investment, time, and the jobs my business creates. Yet another option is to estimate the cost of compliance and assess you a one time fee for capital expenditures, since we lack the ready capital to buy the very expensive solutions currently in existence, or to finance this with a permanent CALEA surcharge on top of our normal service charges.These fees could range from $50 to $500 dollars one time, or $5 to $15 per month for continuing compliance costs. The federal government long ago used your tax dollars to pay for the the telephone companies to be compliant with CALEA, but since WISP's are small business, we have no multi-million dollar lobbyist industry in Washington DC to protect us from arbitrary mandates and regulations. This pattern of regulation and usurping the ability of small business to provide necessary services is a benefit to the large corporate entities like telephone companies and cable companies who, if small businesses like us are force into non-competitive price structures or just out of business, will have no competition, allowing prices for internet to spiral out of control. 3) Present to the press the WISPA member total subs count, and ask for the FCC / Gov to really evaluate the economic impact to GDP per state / national level that shutting off wisps would result in. No one knows this number, but you can take the count from the 477 forms. It was about 2% right? Ahh, we're dead anyway. Might as well call it 0%, right? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
Here, read this. it's old, but it's EFF's take on CALEA. http://www.eff.org/Privacy/Surveillance/CALEA/ If you take the time and read this through (it's HOURS) http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-06-56A1.pdf You'll notice that the FCC readily admits it cannot resolve the technical conflicts between law written for POTS interception and digital packet network monitoring. It is expecting that precedent and our willingness to just throw up our hands and let them have it will eventually settle those conflicts for it, so it will not have to defend the almost incomprehensible dichotomy of POTS telephone taps and internet data interception. - Original Message - From: Mark McElvy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:10 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] LEMMINGS? I may not agree with everything Mark is saying, but CALEA is more about Gov't control and convenience than our protection. Running a small business is hard enough without being regulated into oblivion. Mark McElvy -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
Mark, So this means you thumb your nose at the FCC when they put regulations into place? The FCC is not in place to make life easy for you it is there to protect the airwaves from being polluted from every guy that knows something about wireless and slapping computers together. Sorry if this sounds a little crude but with all the discussion lately the attitude seems to be make it easy for me so I can be a player and handicap the competition. This does not make it an even playing field in any way shape or form. The Telcos/Cableco's have to be compliant as does the little guy. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Mark McElvy wrote: I may not agree with everything Mark is saying, but CALEA is more about Gov't control and convenience than our protection. Running a small business is hard enough without being regulated into oblivion. Mark McElvy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dawn DiPietro Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS? Mark, At this point you are beating a dead horse. We know how you feel about the government and following the laws put in place for your protection. But to be honest with you this is getting old. We need to change the focus of this conversation on how to comply with these rules not how much we should disregard them. I doubt civil disobedience will work in this case not with the small number of WISP's we are talking about here. If this type of discussion keeps this up the FCC could just regulate the WISP industry out of existence. I doubt that is what your end goal is. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
- Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:25 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS? Mark, So this means you thumb your nose at the FCC when they put regulations into place? No, it means I thumb my nose at them when they come along and tell me I have do something for them...for free. The FCC is not in place to make life easy for you it is there to protect the airwaves from being polluted from every guy that knows something about wireless and slapping computers together. Wrong. It is there to properly regulate the use of a public commodity (spectrum) for the best service to the public. Sorry if this sounds a little crude but with all the discussion lately the attitude seems to be make it easy for me so I can be a player and handicap the competition. This does not make it an even playing field in any way shape or form. The Telcos/Cableco's have to be compliant as does the little guy. They can go whine all the want. I'm sticking up for me. Wrong is wrong is wrong, no matter who else gets wronged. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Mark McElvy wrote: I may not agree with everything Mark is saying, but CALEA is more about Gov't control and convenience than our protection. Running a small business is hard enough without being regulated into oblivion. Mark McElvy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dawn DiPietro Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:44 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS? Mark, At this point you are beating a dead horse. We know how you feel about the government and following the laws put in place for your protection. But to be honest with you this is getting old. We need to change the focus of this conversation on how to comply with these rules not how much we should disregard them. I doubt civil disobedience will work in this case not with the small number of WISP's we are talking about here. If this type of discussion keeps this up the FCC could just regulate the WISP industry out of existence. I doubt that is what your end goal is. Regards, Dawn DiPietro -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Lemmings - suggestions
Peter R. wrote: Mr. Hush, Excellent plan. What agenda item will you be working on first? SUGGESTIONS of what to do: we have decided to stage a cyclic disconnect from public Inet in protest. I'm confused... Is he saying to turn the internet off for his customers? Is this supposed to have a positive impact? George -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
Being from Massachusetts and studying the American Revolution through out my youth, which is one exciting piece of history, Patrick Henry and Give me Liberty or give me Death has to be one of the cornerstone of my beliefs. Jeromie Reeves wrote: On 4/26/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeromie Reeves wrote: On 4/19/07, Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as Patrick Henry once said Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Who is Patrick Henry?? Didn't Patrick Henry say Give me liberty or give me death? Yes he did. Your chopping off my sarcasm tag misrepresents my words. The quote in my email was also by Patrick Henry. Steve attributed Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. to Mr. Henry but I do not remember him ever saying it (course I was a bit young back in the 1700's and my memory is not what it once was.). -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Lemmings - suggestions
George Rogato wrote: Peter R. wrote: Mr. Hush, Excellent plan. What agenda item will you be working on first? SUGGESTIONS of what to do: we have decided to stage a cyclic disconnect from public Inet in protest. I'm confused... Is he saying to turn the internet off for his customers? Is this supposed to have a positive impact? George Why yes he did. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Lemmings - suggestions
Peter R. wrote: George Rogato wrote: Peter R. wrote: Mr. Hush, Excellent plan. What agenda item will you be working on first? SUGGESTIONS of what to do: we have decided to stage a cyclic disconnect from public Inet in protest. I'm confused... Is he saying to turn the internet off for his customers? Is this supposed to have a positive impact? George Why yes he did. Sheesh -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS?
I'm sure he was drunk when he said it! I'm JUST KIDDING Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] LEMMINGS? Being from Massachusetts and studying the American Revolution through out my youth, which is one exciting piece of history, Patrick Henry and Give me Liberty or give me Death has to be one of the cornerstone of my beliefs. Jeromie Reeves wrote: On 4/26/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeromie Reeves wrote: On 4/19/07, Steve [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as Patrick Henry once said Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Who is Patrick Henry?? Didn't Patrick Henry say Give me liberty or give me death? Yes he did. Your chopping off my sarcasm tag misrepresents my words. The quote in my email was also by Patrick Henry. Steve attributed Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. to Mr. Henry but I do not remember him ever saying it (course I was a bit young back in the 1700's and my memory is not what it once was.). -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
