Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Well done Sam, move to the top of the class. Notice when you do it to someone else(England) it is ok, but do it to your own goverment it is breaking the law? Weren't Laws made to be broken :-\ You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca Office Phone: 905 349-2084 Office Hours: 9:00am - 5:00pm skype cajeptha Sam Tetherow wrote: You probably should have then. Last I checked treason was just that, which is what the founding fathers did when they declared their independance from England over unjust taxation (a law) which they refused to pay (ignored/disobeyed it). Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless J. Vogel wrote: ... I wish now that I had paid more attention in History classes Which of the founding fathers said something to the effect that the proper response of the citizenry to an unjust law was to ignore/disobey it? John Vogel Butch Evans wrote: On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly oppose it. Your country was founded on that very principle. Yes it does (sometimes). Open opposition to a law and advocating criminal action are not the same thing. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
When I had to get my citizenship I had to pass a language test, so I remember that it is eh, eh. 8-) You have a Good Day now, Carl A Jeptha http://www.airnet.ca Office Phone: 905 349-2084 Office Hours: 9:00am - 5:00pm skype cajeptha George Rogato wrote: eh? I thought it was aye Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh? Always end with a question, eh? Lonnie -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Dawn DiPietro wrote: Mark, Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the plate and defending your position. Whoa, there now! Civil disobedience is always a viable solution. This IS America (at least where I live), land of the free and home of the brave, a country of laws (remember?) and of the rights of all people guaranteed by our constitution and bill of rights. I remember the 60's and 70's (and participated) and I for one am NOT sorry. I am a war veteran, disabled by our conflict, and a war protester, and I am bloody well sensitive to the idea that my fights (for individual rights and the rights of our citizens to squawk like hell) was for nothing. Was it? I think our country was made, and made better, by civil disobedience, and that there is always a place for it. Always. Did I say always? Alan Cain The king can see that (I hope) without his spectacles. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
On Wed, 2 May 2007, Alan Cain wrote: Dawn DiPietro wrote: Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the plate and defending your position. Whoa, there now! Civil disobedience is always a viable solution. Civil disobedience is (in the context that Dawn was using it) the breaking of existing law. In spite of your 60's heritage, breaking the law is NOT an acceptable action. I understand your position (in theory, not practice), but CHANGING law through political influence is one thing. Ignoring it is not a smart thing. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
In the 60's and '70's most of us would taken a much firmer stance. We got old and worried about offending somebody. And then we worried that somebody would punish us for taking our stand. One thing is for sure, the Telcos would not have stood for such a bum's rush. The FCC and FBI guys would be running for cover from the Telco legal and lobby efforts. Our reaction was to brow beat anybody who questioned the the double speak. What happened to us? Do we feel we have too much to lose and no way to protect ourselves? Are we really in a free country or have we fooled ourselves about that as well? Lonnie On 5/2/07, Alan Cain [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dawn DiPietro wrote: Mark, Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the plate and defending your position. Whoa, there now! Civil disobedience is always a viable solution. This IS America (at least where I live), land of the free and home of the brave, a country of laws (remember?) and of the rights of all people guaranteed by our constitution and bill of rights. I remember the 60's and 70's (and participated) and I for one am NOT sorry. I am a war veteran, disabled by our conflict, and a war protester, and I am bloody well sensitive to the idea that my fights (for individual rights and the rights of our citizens to squawk like hell) was for nothing. Was it? I think our country was made, and made better, by civil disobedience, and that there is always a place for it. Always. Did I say always? Alan Cain The king can see that (I hope) without his spectacles. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Its like my old hippie friend told me the only difference between hippie and yuppie is 50 grand a year That was in 91. Adjust accordingly for inflation. c -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? In the 60's and '70's most of us would taken a much firmer stance. We got old and worried about offending somebody. And then we worried that somebody would punish us for taking our stand. One thing is for sure, the Telcos would not have stood for such a bum's rush. The FCC and FBI guys would be running for cover from the Telco legal and lobby efforts. Our reaction was to brow beat anybody who questioned the the double speak. What happened to us? Do we feel we have too much to lose and no way to protect ourselves? Are we really in a free country or have we fooled ourselves about that as well? Lonnie -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly oppose it. Your country was founded on that very principle. Lonnie On 5/2/07, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2 May 2007, Alan Cain wrote: Dawn DiPietro wrote: Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the plate and defending your position. Whoa, there now! Civil disobedience is always a viable solution. Civil disobedience is (in the context that Dawn was using it) the breaking of existing law. In spite of your 60's heritage, breaking the law is NOT an acceptable action. I understand your position (in theory, not practice), but CHANGING law through political influence is one thing. Ignoring it is not a smart thing. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Also, and it finally sunk in, WE are becoming the MAN. Why are we scared of ourselves? Lonnie On 5/2/07, chris cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Its like my old hippie friend told me the only difference between hippie and yuppie is 50 grand a year That was in 91. Adjust accordingly for inflation. c -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:55 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? In the 60's and '70's most of us would taken a much firmer stance. We got old and worried about offending somebody. And then we worried that somebody would punish us for taking our stand. One thing is for sure, the Telcos would not have stood for such a bum's rush. The FCC and FBI guys would be running for cover from the Telco legal and lobby efforts. Our reaction was to brow beat anybody who questioned the the double speak. What happened to us? Do we feel we have too much to lose and no way to protect ourselves? Are we really in a free country or have we fooled ourselves about that as well? Lonnie -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
On Wed, 2 May 2007, Sam Tetherow wrote: Um, that is what the DISOBEDIENCE in civil disobedience means. I can't tell what you are referring to here. My comment was specifically to say that criminal action (breaking the law) is not the proper course. Is that the part that you disagree with? -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
... I wish now that I had paid more attention in History classes Which of the founding fathers said something to the effect that the proper response of the citizenry to an unjust law was to ignore/disobey it? John Vogel Butch Evans wrote: On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly oppose it. Your country was founded on that very principle. Yes it does (sometimes). Open opposition to a law and advocating criminal action are not the same thing. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Nahh, hippies don't have harley's. I was wiring at a hippie market a few years back, and this hippie dude, a real hippie dude, told me that my truck was a waste and that anywhere I could go in Eugene Oregon, he could get there just as fast on his bicycle. robably is true. So as I was getting ready to go to the supply house, he bet me that he would get there first. So I took the bet, sure enough I show up and here is this hippie dude sitting on the loading dock. So I say to him, yeah but, ( a canadian expression :) ) waite right here. I come out with a few bundles of conduit and a few big rolls of wire,etc and ask him, how are you going to get this stuff back to your store on a bicycle??? Why else would I be driving a truck! George Cliff Leboeuf wrote: But they are alike in they both have Harleys... :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of chris cooper Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:03 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? Its like my old hippie friend told me the only difference between hippie and yuppie is 50 grand a year That was in 91. Adjust accordingly for inflation. c -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Butch - if we all followed the laws - nothing in this country would be what it is today. If our predeccessors (spelling?) followed the rule which we bucked against - where would we be ? JohnnyO - Original Message - From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:41 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? On Wed, 2 May 2007, Sam Tetherow wrote: Um, that is what the DISOBEDIENCE in civil disobedience means. I can't tell what you are referring to here. My comment was specifically to say that criminal action (breaking the law) is not the proper course. Is that the part that you disagree with? -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
I suggest you not take the view that breaking any and all laws is a criminal matter. There are various levels of laws, and most are not criminal matters. I can break the speed laws and get a fine but no criminal record, unless of course I harm someone or do it in such a way that it is clearly criminal or insane (like 100 mph through a playground). Lonnie On 5/2/07, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly oppose it. Your country was founded on that very principle. Yes it does (sometimes). Open opposition to a law and advocating criminal action are not the same thing. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh? Always end with a question, eh? Lonnie On 5/2/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nahh, hippies don't have harley's. I was wiring at a hippie market a few years back, and this hippie dude, a real hippie dude, told me that my truck was a waste and that anywhere I could go in Eugene Oregon, he could get there just as fast on his bicycle. robably is true. So as I was getting ready to go to the supply house, he bet me that he would get there first. So I took the bet, sure enough I show up and here is this hippie dude sitting on the loading dock. So I say to him, yeah but, ( a canadian expression :) ) waite right here. I come out with a few bundles of conduit and a few big rolls of wire,etc and ask him, how are you going to get this stuff back to your store on a bicycle??? Why else would I be driving a truck! George Cliff Leboeuf wrote: But they are alike in they both have Harleys... :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of chris cooper Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:03 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? Its like my old hippie friend told me the only difference between hippie and yuppie is 50 grand a year That was in 91. Adjust accordingly for inflation. c -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
You probably should have then. Last I checked treason was just that, which is what the founding fathers did when they declared their independance from England over unjust taxation (a law) which they refused to pay (ignored/disobeyed it). Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless J. Vogel wrote: ... I wish now that I had paid more attention in History classes Which of the founding fathers said something to the effect that the proper response of the citizenry to an unjust law was to ignore/disobey it? John Vogel Butch Evans wrote: On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly oppose it. Your country was founded on that very principle. Yes it does (sometimes). Open opposition to a law and advocating criminal action are not the same thing. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
in BC most say hey - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? eh? I thought it was aye Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh? Always end with a question, eh? Lonnie -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
In Maine, the old time new englander yankees say you can't get theyer from heyer. :) JohnnyO wrote: in BC most say hey - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 5:12 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? eh? I thought it was aye Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh? Always end with a question, eh? Lonnie -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
aye is a form of yes, as in aye capn highliner. eh is a form of question, to gain agreement, such as I can do this, eh? Lonnie On 5/2/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: eh? I thought it was aye Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh? Always end with a question, eh? Lonnie -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Correct, civil disobedience has been used effectively in the past to change things for the better...and the worse. There are consequences to those who take those stands though. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alan Cain Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? Dawn DiPietro wrote: Mark, Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the plate and defending your position. Whoa, there now! Civil disobedience is always a viable solution. This IS America (at least where I live), land of the free and home of the brave, a country of laws (remember?) and of the rights of all people guaranteed by our constitution and bill of rights. I remember the 60's and 70's (and participated) and I for one am NOT sorry. I am a war veteran, disabled by our conflict, and a war protester, and I am bloody well sensitive to the idea that my fights (for individual rights and the rights of our citizens to squawk like hell) was for nothing. Was it? I think our country was made, and made better, by civil disobedience, and that there is always a place for it. Always. Did I say always? Alan Cain The king can see that (I hope) without his spectacles. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Get to know your local Congressman. Go to the town hall meetings. Stick around afterward and chat. The meetings are generally poorly attended, and you can often get a LOT of time to discuss things that matter to you. Get involved. I worked on the campaign of my local (ex) Congressman. For 4 years my Congressman knew my name and would take my calls...I even got to meet with him in DC when I was there for a tradeshow. It's not hard, it just takes some time and effort. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 5:43 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly oppose it. Your country was founded on that very principle. Yes it does (sometimes). Open opposition to a law and advocating criminal action are not the same thing. -- Butch Evans Network Engineering and Security Consulting 573-276-2879 http://www.butchevans.com/ My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6 Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
That was the Magna Carta. http://www.odessaoffice.com/constitution/ If you've not ready it, you'd be amazed at the history of it all. Our constitution is partly founded upon that doc as I understand it. Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: J. Vogel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 2:58 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? ... I wish now that I had paid more attention in History classes Which of the founding fathers said something to the effect that the proper response of the citizenry to an unjust law was to ignore/disobey it? John Vogel Butch Evans wrote: On Wed, 2 May 2007, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote: Changing the laws happens MUCH quicker if a mass of people openly oppose it. Your country was founded on that very principle. Yes it does (sometimes). Open opposition to a law and advocating criminal action are not the same thing. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
I thought you ended everything with an eh? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 5:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? The proper phrase is: yeah but, wait right here, eh? Always end with a question, eh? Lonnie On 5/2/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nahh, hippies don't have harley's. I was wiring at a hippie market a few years back, and this hippie dude, a real hippie dude, told me that my truck was a waste and that anywhere I could go in Eugene Oregon, he could get there just as fast on his bicycle. robably is true. So as I was getting ready to go to the supply house, he bet me that he would get there first. So I took the bet, sure enough I show up and here is this hippie dude sitting on the loading dock. So I say to him, yeah but, ( a canadian expression :) ) waite right here. I come out with a few bundles of conduit and a few big rolls of wire,etc and ask him, how are you going to get this stuff back to your store on a bicycle??? Why else would I be driving a truck! George Cliff Leboeuf wrote: But they are alike in they both have Harleys... :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of chris cooper Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 4:03 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? Its like my old hippie friend told me the only difference between hippie and yuppie is 50 grand a year That was in 91. Adjust accordingly for inflation. c -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Mark, Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the plate and defending your position. Regards, Dawn DiPietro Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Wow. I guess the title really is right. When I participated in the debates about who was a WISP, and who could join WISPA, we were very broad, and included community networks, free networks, big and small operators.. including the guy who is just a hobby type network operator, but provides connection to his small town, community, neighborhood, or even just block. Now we've decided that the only people who count are the big guys. The professionals? A few hundred?I know that lots of people didn't file 477 so that they could hide when the next thing came out... And it was no time at all. What will happen when the next mandate comes? Will you start referencing the scores of WISP's? After the next one will it be the dozens? Marlon thinks there's 10,000 of us. I think there's 20K of us, including all the wide array of informal, hobby, free, or otherwise not set up an advertised for profit ISP. So, we just toss all them to the wolves to feed on first, before they get to us? You KNOW that the vast majority of these things are theoretically covered by CALEA, but will never file a single thing, won't have any ability to assist law enforcement, and will continue operating under the radar, possibly getting destroyed one by one as circumstances bring them to light. So, you think that the FCC is going OUTLAW delivering internet via wireless because we discuss tactics about how to get them to face reality? I don't advocate lying to anyone. If you can, by george, file you can. But for the rest of us.. File you can't. And I'd encourage EVERY ONE OF THOSE 15-20K network operators to do the same. Create the logjam that teaches regulators when they've done wrong. This is the most basic tenet of democracy I can think of. There is no holiness to the government or to law they write. It does not come from God to them to us.All are subject to negotiation and resistance by the governed. I WILL DO JUST THAT, because I can't without changing my network. But, I'll just be offering my farewell email to the list soon UNLESS we stick together, and unless WISPA and everyone else starts telling them to back off and that the vast majority of operators actually cannot reasonably comply. As far as I can tell, the only informal WISPA communication was that we can! And if they shut me down... what will WISPA's stance be? oh, he was a renegade? That looks like what you all want to do. AT least the public list won't be cluttered with noise about trying to save the WISP industry from exinction.Sheesh. Who cares about that radical issue? I have written over and over and over that this isn't about me, nor my views on the right or wrong... but about our industry and DEFENDING IT.And it appears the biggest fight WISPA wants to have is the one to shut up those who want to save their own skin, plus that of their fellow intrepid operators. I would encourage you to sit down and read the last FCC published document on the topic of CALEA. You need to understand that what we are supposedly working on as compliance is not fixed AT ALL. Just becoming presently compliant is not a gauranteed long term or future solution. The FCC reserves the right to mandate PRECISELY what we are doing, and even in the future to demand certification of the equipment we use. They are resisting that now, but but as history shows and the fact that they're trying to force CALEA compliance on us, that they're as bendable as a willow in the wind. This is not, as some people are attempting to portray it a minor, one time bump in the road. It's going to get bigger and it's going to continue to be a source of heartburn even for those who can comply now. All of this is a trial run (my words, not theirs) to see how well it works. If the results...after we re-build, restructure, or in some cases, do very little... aren't satisfactory, they can revisit and impose HUGE mandates that would bury pretty much every WISP except perhaps a few of the multi-million dollar ones. And that revisit is not determined by the FCC's opinion, it's going to be in consultation with the DOJ and FBI, who wanted MUCH more, and may very well get MUCH more, unless we start making the case this is bad law, policy, and the wrong approach. We cannot consider CALEA issues dealt with and just go back to business as usual, because the deadline passes and we have something that works under the guidelines. I predict that the deadline will pass and only those who have a c ontract with a TTP and a couple of router manufacturers will actually have full compliance. That will be only some of the hundreds we're talking about right now.I further predict that in a year or two, further mandates about CALEA will come along. These
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
- Original Message - From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 1:29 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? Mark, Justify it anyway you like. Civil disobedience is not a viable solution. I don't see a large number of people stepping up to the plate and defending your position. Who said to be 'civil disobedient'? THAT is what's going on with thousands now. I'm suggesting that we recruit those hundreds...errr..thousands to file and say that they cannot comply. This is not civil disobedience, this is changing the POV of people who made bad policy. They can't possibly undertake the task of taking down thousands of tiny networks, which is what would change policies and possibly get pretty much all of us exempted or changed to some non-mandated terms. Oh, WISPA can just toss them to the wolves and lose absolutely ANY chance of getting them into membership and support.These people ask what's the value in being a member... and if all WISPA's going to do is toss them under the bus, you might as well write off the vast majority of smaller network operators from EVER supporting WISPA in any meaningful fashion. Talk about chopping off your nose to spite your face... Cripes... I've been trying to argue that WISPA is throwing away a HUGE opportunity by not defending the industry as a whole, and is, in effect, alienating the very people it needs to become a much more effective organization. There are NOT thousands of big, profitable WISP's. There ARE thousands of tiny network operators, community networks, neighborhood networks, and other small ventures that simply cannot go it alone and be compliant, but if we could give them a reason... if we ACTUALLY fought for them, then we might create a reason they'd support us. Instead, all we see is intangible promises of 'we'll do what we can' and we can't resist so shut up and go die quietly. Read that document from the FCC again, there's HUGE areas of required compliance that have NOT EVEN BEEN MENTIONED by anything to come from WISPA nor anyone else I've seen, and we have 3 weeks to somehow bridge this gulf, educate everyone, and try some give and take with the regulators. In other words... Regards, Dawn DiPietro Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Wow. I guess the title really is right. When I participated in the debates about who was a WISP, and who could join WISPA, we were very broad, and included community networks, free networks, big and small operators.. including the guy who is just a hobby type network operator, but provides connection to his small town, community, neighborhood, or even just block. Now we've decided that the only people who count are the big guys. The professionals? A few hundred?I know that lots of people didn't file 477 so that they could hide when the next thing came out... And it was no time at all. What will happen when the next mandate comes? Will you start referencing the scores of WISP's? After the next one will it be the dozens? Marlon thinks there's 10,000 of us. I think there's 20K of us, including all the wide array of informal, hobby, free, or otherwise not set up an advertised for profit ISP. So, we just toss all them to the wolves to feed on first, before they get to us? You KNOW that the vast majority of these things are theoretically covered by CALEA, but will never file a single thing, won't have any ability to assist law enforcement, and will continue operating under the radar, possibly getting destroyed one by one as circumstances bring them to light. So, you think that the FCC is going OUTLAW delivering internet via wireless because we discuss tactics about how to get them to face reality? I don't advocate lying to anyone. If you can, by george, file you can. But for the rest of us.. File you can't. And I'd encourage EVERY ONE OF THOSE 15-20K network operators to do the same. Create the logjam that teaches regulators when they've done wrong. This is the most basic tenet of democracy I can think of. There is no holiness to the government or to law they write. It does not come from God to them to us.All are subject to negotiation and resistance by the governed. I WILL DO JUST THAT, because I can't without changing my network. But, I'll just be offering my farewell email to the list soon UNLESS we stick together, and unless WISPA and everyone else starts telling them to back off and that the vast majority of operators actually cannot reasonably comply. As far as I can tell, the only informal WISPA communication was that we can! And if they shut me down... what will WISPA's stance be? oh, he was a renegade? That looks like what you all want to do. AT least the public list won't be cluttered with noise about trying to save the WISP industry from exinction.Sheesh. Who cares about
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Mark Koskenmaki wrote: Read that document from the FCC again, there's HUGE areas of required compliance that have NOT EVEN BEEN MENTIONED by anything to come from WISPA nor anyone else I've seen, and we have 3 weeks to somehow bridge this gulf, educate everyone, and try some give and take with the regulators. I can't speak for the others that have been avoiding this thread. I've been avoiding it because there is no useful value in it. You refer to we like somehow both you and everyone else has been discussing this issue with no resolution. That is not the case. Some of us have already accepted the law and become compliant with it. In fact, the very people that are compliant with it are probably the same ones not discussing the issue. CALEA is a requirement that we must all deal with. No sense discussing whether we should or not. Be compliant or don't be compliant, but stop arguing that any of us should do anything other then be compliant. If you or anyone else is choosing not to be compliant then that is your choice and I don't see why the rest of need to know or care why. The thing I find interesting is what the practical impact of this is going to be on compliant organizations. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
Again I ask you, how do you do that? How do you get hundreds to write in? You wrote a note that could be massaged and sent to customers. (But then you would start losing customers almost immediately). So people have a starting point. The PR... you suggested that no one could write one... actually anyone can write one, you just couldn't send it without Board approval. Big diff. The hard part is writing the letter. So any volunteers to write the letter to the News (AP and UPI)? Any association including WISPA is made up of its members. So if enough of you feel that the action to take is to tell the FCC that we cannot comply, then please, now is the time to step up to the plate. Let your board know how you feel. Start drafting your PR message and your letter to the FCC. (WISPA works only because of Volunteers so step up and get drafting). - Peter Mark Koskenmaki wrote: now. I'm suggesting that we recruit those hundreds...errr..thousands to file and say that they cannot comply. This is not civil disobedience, this is changing the POV of people who made bad policy. They can't possibly undertake the task of taking down thousands of tiny networks, which is what would change policies and possibly get pretty much all of us exempted or changed to some non-mandated terms. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA?
I think there are between 3000 and 6000 wisps. I do NOT think CALEA is a bad thing. Pretty hard to abuse it and there's NO reason for the ability to spy on bad guys to not exist. Lastly, I just can't take it anymore! Some of you guys loose more sleep over the little stuff. I'm FAR more worried about my TAX money being spent to support welfare baby factories and studies to determine that the fruit fly is far more endowed than the average human male than I am about CALEA or the 477. Sheesh http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sky_is_Falling I'm out of this argument permantely. It's too religious for my tastes. Find something we CAN change and I'll be the first one in line to help change it. Shoot, that's why I helped start wispa and have been on the board since it was a self appointed one! Marlon (509) 982-2181 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services 42846865 (icq)WISP Operator since 1999! [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.odessaoffice.com/wireless www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam - Original Message - From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 12:49 PM Subject: [WISPA] Was lemmings... now What is WISPA? Wow. I guess the title really is right. When I participated in the debates about who was a WISP, and who could join WISPA, we were very broad, and included community networks, free networks, big and small operators.. including the guy who is just a hobby type network operator, but provides connection to his small town, community, neighborhood, or even just block. Now we've decided that the only people who count are the big guys. The professionals? A few hundred?I know that lots of people didn't file 477 so that they could hide when the next thing came out... And it was no time at all. What will happen when the next mandate comes? Will you start referencing the scores of WISP's? After the next one will it be the dozens? Marlon thinks there's 10,000 of us. I think there's 20K of us, including all the wide array of informal, hobby, free, or otherwise not set up an advertised for profit ISP. So, we just toss all them to the wolves to feed on first, before they get to us? You KNOW that the vast majority of these things are theoretically covered by CALEA, but will never file a single thing, won't have any ability to assist law enforcement, and will continue operating under the radar, possibly getting destroyed one by one as circumstances bring them to light. So, you think that the FCC is going OUTLAW delivering internet via wireless because we discuss tactics about how to get them to face reality? I don't advocate lying to anyone. If you can, by george, file you can. But for the rest of us.. File you can't. And I'd encourage EVERY ONE OF THOSE 15-20K network operators to do the same. Create the logjam that teaches regulators when they've done wrong. This is the most basic tenet of democracy I can think of. There is no holiness to the government or to law they write. It does not come from God to them to us.All are subject to negotiation and resistance by the governed. I WILL DO JUST THAT, because I can't without changing my network. But, I'll just be offering my farewell email to the list soon UNLESS we stick together, and unless WISPA and everyone else starts telling them to back off and that the vast majority of operators actually cannot reasonably comply. As far as I can tell, the only informal WISPA communication was that we can! And if they shut me down... what will WISPA's stance be? oh, he was a renegade? That looks like what you all want to do. AT least the public list won't be cluttered with noise about trying to save the WISP industry from exinction.Sheesh. Who cares about that radical issue? I have written over and over and over that this isn't about me, nor my views on the right or wrong... but about our industry and DEFENDING IT.And it appears the biggest fight WISPA wants to have is the one to shut up those who want to save their own skin, plus that of their fellow intrepid operators. I would encourage you to sit down and read the last FCC published document on the topic of CALEA. You need to understand that what we are supposedly working on as compliance is not fixed AT ALL. Just becoming presently compliant is not a gauranteed long term or future solution. The FCC reserves the right to mandate PRECISELY what we are doing, and even in the future to demand certification of the equipment we use. They are resisting that now, but but as history shows and the fact that they're trying to force CALEA compliance on us, that they're as bendable as a willow in the wind. This is not, as some people are attempting to portray it a minor, one time bump in the road. It's going to get bigger and it's going to continue to be a source of heartburn even for those who can
