RE: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

2006-11-30 Thread Charles Wu
Not that this is a good practice...but 

Wmux radios are extremely sensative to interference on the Rx size (a wiff
of anything takes it down)
Figure out the Tx/Rx spread (may be 5.3 GHz on that particular site), and
shut them down on the Rx side -- maybe then they'll talk =)

-Charles

P.S. -- if it's a short range shot, they can probably go licensed now for
the same price as unlicensed, and they'd get out of your hair completely

---
WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ireton
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:28 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 yeppers.  something like that.
 
 Triangulate in on where it's coming from and ask the folks that own 
 the
 structure the antenna is on.
 
 It might be cheaper to pay them to change polarities than it is to 
 reset
 your plan.
 

I think the concensus - western multiplex - makes sense. And probbly a 
cell carrier. I do totally understand legacy equipment and such, but 
dammit I could get a few hundred mbps out of that same chunk and have 
channel space left over... but again that's using moden equipment.

I know I probbly have zero chance of sucess, but would anyone think 
(provided I can find the operator) that we could work something out - 
either like a polarity change as marlon suggested, or just buy them some 
more spectrally effecient gear...? I understand they may need to have an 
actual T1 electrical interface, but there are a few players that can 
actually do this job with much much less spectrum. I know of ceragon and 
their fiberair, as well as redline can do this. I've never heard of a 
deal like this but it would be helpful. Otherwise I'm going to have to 
change plans and that's gonna be a little expensive. Sort of wish I'd 
done an SA first but it's in the middle of nowhere and I just assumed 
based on past experience it wasn't going to be a problem... WRONG!

Mike-

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RE: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

2006-11-30 Thread Mike Bushard, Jr
Funny you mention that, But you are right. We are located on a tower with a
2.4 WM and a 5ghz WM. We put our stuff up, ran the SA and went holy S***. We
were able to move around them. But I forgot about them when I moved some
channels around, and sure enough about 3 months later I was taking to the
area tech and I asked how everything was working... They never could
figure out why their t-1 radios kept dropping until I asked what channels
they were running.

Canopy gave them some problems, but we never saw anything. So now I have
those channels blocked out..

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
320-256-WISP (9477)
320-256-9478 Fax
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:49 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

Not that this is a good practice...but 

Wmux radios are extremely sensative to interference on the Rx size (a wiff
of anything takes it down)
Figure out the Tx/Rx spread (may be 5.3 GHz on that particular site), and
shut them down on the Rx side -- maybe then they'll talk =)

-Charles

P.S. -- if it's a short range shot, they can probably go licensed now for
the same price as unlicensed, and they'd get out of your hair completely

---
WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ireton
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:28 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 yeppers.  something like that.
 
 Triangulate in on where it's coming from and ask the folks that own 
 the
 structure the antenna is on.
 
 It might be cheaper to pay them to change polarities than it is to 
 reset
 your plan.
 

I think the concensus - western multiplex - makes sense. And probbly a 
cell carrier. I do totally understand legacy equipment and such, but 
dammit I could get a few hundred mbps out of that same chunk and have 
channel space left over... but again that's using moden equipment.

I know I probbly have zero chance of sucess, but would anyone think 
(provided I can find the operator) that we could work something out - 
either like a polarity change as marlon suggested, or just buy them some 
more spectrally effecient gear...? I understand they may need to have an 
actual T1 electrical interface, but there are a few players that can 
actually do this job with much much less spectrum. I know of ceragon and 
their fiberair, as well as redline can do this. I've never heard of a 
deal like this but it would be helpful. Otherwise I'm going to have to 
change plans and that's gonna be a little expensive. Sort of wish I'd 
done an SA first but it's in the middle of nowhere and I just assumed 
based on past experience it wasn't going to be a problem... WRONG!

Mike-

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Re: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

2006-11-30 Thread Mike Ireton


Charles, I'm suprised!

	In general I would advocate cooperation and it sounds like perhaps 
there would be some options here if this does turn out to be a cell 
carrier or such. We would certainly like to continue earning our 
reputation as good guys - even with competitors who otherwise would not 
do likewise - I simply didn't expect this situation here. On a 
commercial tower we'd be screwed I know. But I think this goes both ways 
- since I'm going canopy here and going to do 5.8, it's going to hurt 
them and unintentionally so unless we figure something out. I do have 
sectorization as an option, as well as 5.2 and 2.4 and 900 if I really 
want. And cross polarization probbly won't be enough due to the high 
rssi already.


Mike-



Charles Wu wrote:
Not that this is a good practice...but 


Wmux radios are extremely sensative to interference on the Rx size (a wiff
of anything takes it down)
Figure out the Tx/Rx spread (may be 5.3 GHz on that particular site), and
shut them down on the Rx side -- maybe then they'll talk =)

-Charles

P.S. -- if it's a short range shot, they can probably go licensed now for
the same price as unlicensed, and they'd get out of your hair completely




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Re: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

2006-11-30 Thread Tom DeReggi
Also remember, its not only about doing the spectrum analsys upfront, but 
also an issue of choosing a broadcast site, where the management is savy 
enough to manage the spectrum use correctly at the site.  Whether or not you 
interfere with colocated equipment should have been caught before any gear 
was ever even turned on, or a dollar spent in onsite time.  Thats the 
advantage of paying for the use of spectrum from a site.  Many people will 
install unlicensed gear, without contractually having the right to deploy it 
in the first place.  Many Licensed carrier don;t understand its the 
appropirate practice to.  So often, if you've paid for it, and they haven;t, 
you can make them take it down.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Mike Bushard, Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?


Funny you mention that, But you are right. We are located on a tower with 
a
2.4 WM and a 5ghz WM. We put our stuff up, ran the SA and went holy S***. 
We

were able to move around them. But I forgot about them when I moved some
channels around, and sure enough about 3 months later I was taking to the
area tech and I asked how everything was working... They never could
figure out why their t-1 radios kept dropping until I asked what channels
they were running.

Canopy gave them some problems, but we never saw anything. So now I have
those channels blocked out..

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
320-256-WISP (9477)
320-256-9478 Fax


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:49 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

Not that this is a good practice...but

Wmux radios are extremely sensative to interference on the Rx size (a wiff
of anything takes it down)
Figure out the Tx/Rx spread (may be 5.3 GHz on that particular site), and
shut them down on the Rx side -- maybe then they'll talk =)

-Charles

P.S. -- if it's a short range shot, they can probably go licensed now for
the same price as unlicensed, and they'd get out of your hair completely

---
WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ireton
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:28 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

yeppers.  something like that.

Triangulate in on where it's coming from and ask the folks that own
the
structure the antenna is on.

It might be cheaper to pay them to change polarities than it is to
reset
your plan.



I think the concensus - western multiplex - makes sense. And probbly a
cell carrier. I do totally understand legacy equipment and such, but
dammit I could get a few hundred mbps out of that same chunk and have
channel space left over... but again that's using moden equipment.

I know I probbly have zero chance of sucess, but would anyone think
(provided I can find the operator) that we could work something out -
either like a polarity change as marlon suggested, or just buy them some
more spectrally effecient gear...? I understand they may need to have an
actual T1 electrical interface, but there are a few players that can
actually do this job with much much less spectrum. I know of ceragon and
their fiberair, as well as redline can do this. I've never heard of a
deal like this but it would be helpful. Otherwise I'm going to have to
change plans and that's gonna be a little expensive. Sort of wish I'd
done an SA first but it's in the middle of nowhere and I just assumed
based on past experience it wasn't going to be a problem... WRONG!

Mike-

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Re: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

2006-11-30 Thread Tom DeReggi
Some unscrupulous operators also may use them Tsunamis to kill/squat on 
the spectrum to prevent new commers.
This is a large part of the advantage of using sectorized, is you find out 
where the noise sources are and engineer around them.  If you are in their 
direct path and close, it may mean changing cell site locations or frequency 
range. The good news is its probably a very directional antenna, and 
feasible that you could not interfere with them by moving your cell site 
location.  There are several other brands other than Tsunmai that also allow 
use of all the channels. Its usually the outcome of older legacy gear that 
attempted 45mbps or higher links.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:16 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?



Sounds like and old western multiplex tsunami used by cell carriers for
tower backhaul

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ireton
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:25 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

While installing a new canopy accesspoint today, in an unserved
community with no other wireless isps and little else, I discovered that
I have about a -56 avarage across the entire swath of 5750mhz thru
5845mhz... what the hell?!?!? It's a small area deployment and we had
planned on a simple low gain omni, but not now... I don't know who or
what but 100mhz, is that really necessary? I'm going to take an sm later
and see if I can get a better picture and determine the direction of
these signals and see if there's going to be any way to make this work.
Out in the middle of nowhere. But does anyone have any idea what in gods
name could occupy this much continuous spectrum in 5.8?

Mike-

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RE: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

2006-11-29 Thread Gino A. Villarini
Sounds like and old western multiplex tsunami used by cell carriers for
tower backhaul

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ireton
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:25 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

While installing a new canopy accesspoint today, in an unserved 
community with no other wireless isps and little else, I discovered that 
I have about a -56 avarage across the entire swath of 5750mhz thru 
5845mhz... what the hell?!?!? It's a small area deployment and we had 
planned on a simple low gain omni, but not now... I don't know who or 
what but 100mhz, is that really necessary? I'm going to take an sm later 
and see if I can get a better picture and determine the direction of 
these signals and see if there's going to be any way to make this work. 
Out in the middle of nowhere. But does anyone have any idea what in gods 
name could occupy this much continuous spectrum in 5.8?

Mike-

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RE: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

2006-11-29 Thread Patrick Leary
Proxim (formerly Western Multiplex) Tsunami point-to-point radios. They
eat up the entire 100MHz. They are ancient, inefficient and use a crude
modulation, but that meant they worked, and worked well. Thousands of
them were sold and they are still being sold new.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ireton
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 5:25 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

While installing a new canopy accesspoint today, in an unserved 
community with no other wireless isps and little else, I discovered that

I have about a -56 avarage across the entire swath of 5750mhz thru 
5845mhz... what the hell?!?!? It's a small area deployment and we had 
planned on a simple low gain omni, but not now... I don't know who or 
what but 100mhz, is that really necessary? I'm going to take an sm later

and see if I can get a better picture and determine the direction of 
these signals and see if there's going to be any way to make this work. 
Out in the middle of nowhere. But does anyone have any idea what in gods

name could occupy this much continuous spectrum in 5.8?

Mike-

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Re: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

2006-11-29 Thread Jack Unger
Asking the link owner to consider changing their antenna polarization is 
a good idea although their antenna and labor costs to do that could be 
kinda high depending on who they do (or don't) have on staff to do their 
tower and antenna work and what antennas they are currently using.


With a signal that loud, even cross-polarizing to drop it down by 15 or 
20 dBm would only lower it to -71 dBm or -76 dBm at best. It still could 
be loud enough to significantly reduce the receiving radius of Mike's 
possible new access point.


Often, when first installed, these links are set to run at full power 
when they may not actually need to run that hot. Sometimes the link 
owner will be willing to turn the power down a bit if asked. This would 
help Mike to increase his access point receiving distance.


Depending on the direction that the signal is coming from, Mike can 
sectorize, effectively turning his back on the noise. Then if he 
chooses an antenna with the opposite polarization, he may be able to get 
his small-area deployment to work OK.


jack


NOTE to Mike: That will be 50 cents, please.


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


yeppers.  something like that.

Triangulate in on where it's coming from and ask the folks that own the 
structure the antenna is on.


It might be cheaper to pay them to change polarities than it is to reset 
your plan.


marlon

- Original Message - From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 6:16 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?



Sounds like and old western multiplex tsunami used by cell carriers for
tower backhaul

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ireton
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:25 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

While installing a new canopy accesspoint today, in an unserved
community with no other wireless isps and little else, I discovered that
I have about a -56 avarage across the entire swath of 5750mhz thru
5845mhz... what the hell?!?!? It's a small area deployment and we had
planned on a simple low gain omni, but not now... I don't know who or
what but 100mhz, is that really necessary? I'm going to take an sm later
and see if I can get a better picture and determine the direction of
these signals and see if there's going to be any way to make this work.
Out in the middle of nowhere. But does anyone have any idea what in gods
name could occupy this much continuous spectrum in 5.8?

Mike-

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Serving the License-Free Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs
True Vendor-Neutral WISP Consulting-Training-Troubleshooting
Newsletters Downloadable from http://ask-wi.com/newsletters.html
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Re: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

2006-11-29 Thread Travis Johnson

Mike,

One thing that is different with the Western Multiplex vs. Redline or 
others is the WM is a constant carrier, full-duplex radio. Changing 
them to a Redline or something else would actually be a downgrade for 
them... the true full-duplex operation as well as constant carrier radio 
makes this type of radio perfect for backhauling cellular and other 
telco type services.


We have several of the 2.4ghz WM full-duplex radios co-located on the 
same towers we are... you can sure tell with a SA exactly what channels 
they are using... ;)


Travis
Microserv

Mike Ireton wrote:

Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

yeppers.  something like that.

Triangulate in on where it's coming from and ask the folks that own 
the structure the antenna is on.


It might be cheaper to pay them to change polarities than it is to 
reset your plan.




I think the concensus - western multiplex - makes sense. And probbly a 
cell carrier. I do totally understand legacy equipment and such, but 
dammit I could get a few hundred mbps out of that same chunk and have 
channel space left over... but again that's using moden equipment.


I know I probbly have zero chance of sucess, but would anyone think 
(provided I can find the operator) that we could work something out - 
either like a polarity change as marlon suggested, or just buy them 
some more spectrally effecient gear...? I understand they may need to 
have an actual T1 electrical interface, but there are a few players 
that can actually do this job with much much less spectrum. I know of 
ceragon and their fiberair, as well as redline can do this. I've never 
heard of a deal like this but it would be helpful. Otherwise I'm going 
to have to change plans and that's gonna be a little expensive. Sort 
of wish I'd done an SA first but it's in the middle of nowhere and I 
just assumed based on past experience it wasn't going to be a 
problem... WRONG!


Mike-


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Re: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

2006-11-29 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
One of the other things to do if they are using wmux is to make sure that 
they aren't running over powered.  Or that they can't turn the power down. 
I had a company run 6' dishes on a link of 13 miles.  Knocked me offline 
almost 40 miles away!  They had a 60, yes six zero, dB fade margin.  They 
were very nice about it and turned the power way down and we both worked 
just fine after that.


laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:17 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?


Asking the link owner to consider changing their antenna polarization is a 
good idea although their antenna and labor costs to do that could be kinda 
high depending on who they do (or don't) have on staff to do their tower 
and antenna work and what antennas they are currently using.


With a signal that loud, even cross-polarizing to drop it down by 15 or 20 
dBm would only lower it to -71 dBm or -76 dBm at best. It still could be 
loud enough to significantly reduce the receiving radius of Mike's 
possible new access point.


Often, when first installed, these links are set to run at full power when 
they may not actually need to run that hot. Sometimes the link owner will 
be willing to turn the power down a bit if asked. This would help Mike to 
increase his access point receiving distance.


Depending on the direction that the signal is coming from, Mike can 
sectorize, effectively turning his back on the noise. Then if he chooses 
an antenna with the opposite polarization, he may be able to get his 
small-area deployment to work OK.


jack


NOTE to Mike: That will be 50 cents, please.


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


yeppers.  something like that.

Triangulate in on where it's coming from and ask the folks that own the 
structure the antenna is on.


It might be cheaper to pay them to change polarities than it is to reset 
your plan.


marlon

- Original Message - From: Gino A. Villarini 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 6:16 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?



Sounds like and old western multiplex tsunami used by cell carriers for
tower backhaul

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ireton
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:25 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] What the heck chews up 100mhz of 5.8ghz?!?

While installing a new canopy accesspoint today, in an unserved
community with no other wireless isps and little else, I discovered that
I have about a -56 avarage across the entire swath of 5750mhz thru
5845mhz... what the hell?!?!? It's a small area deployment and we had
planned on a simple low gain omni, but not now... I don't know who or
what but 100mhz, is that really necessary? I'm going to take an sm later
and see if I can get a better picture and determine the direction of
these signals and see if there's going to be any way to make this work.
Out in the middle of nowhere. But does anyone have any idea what in gods
name could occupy this much continuous spectrum in 5.8?

Mike-

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