Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment
On 11/04/15 15:12, Kevin McCormick wrote: Cisco says to use 40 Mhz channels on 5 Ghz if you have the channels to support it. We have more than enough channels in our deployments to avoid overlap, so we have 40 Mhz turned on. We are also disabling 11b and 11a data rates to weed out the few slower older clients. Since almost all our 5 Ghz clients are 11n or 11ac they will all take advantage of the 40 Mhz. I've been running 40Mhz channels without any noticeable problems, 80% of devices are in 5GHz. Particularly since we still have a lot of iPad 4s, which are only 1x1:1 but do support 40MHz channels. I agree with Cisco, if you can use 40 Mhz without any serious impact, make the change from 20 to 40. http://www.cisco.com/web/strategy/docs/education/cisco_wlan_design_guide.pdf Also 802.11ac is much better at sharing wider channels with neighbouring APs, so you may as well enable 40MHz or even 80MHz channels, since if the overlapping channels are busy the client will tell the AP and they'll fall back to a narrower bandwidth. But otherwise you'll benefit from the improved speeds. http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/collateral/wireless/aironet-3600-series/white_paper_c11-713103.html#_Toc383047848 http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/123401739/ch03.html#medium_access_procedures http://chimera.labs.oreilly.com/books/123401739/ch05.html#section-channel-selection -- James Andrewartha Network Projects Engineer Christ Church Grammar School Claremont, Western Australia Ph. (08) 9442 1757 Mob. 0424 160 877 ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment
Hi all, We’re not able to go 802.11ac yet for res halls (no product yet) however we’re taking the plunge to put a single 702W in *each and every room* in our new residential halls. We’d ideally, from an RF perspective, like to go with one per two rooms, however this creates inequality between rooms (some students will have the AP in their room, providing faster wireless and more wired switchports whereas others do not). Challenges we’ve faced so far: 1. Switchports do not support tagged voice VLAN - so we’ll need to change the way we deploy these. 2. Can we disable the switchport LEDs? 3. QoS markings don’t seem to be honoured. 4. Requirement to move to 8.0 to put different switchports on different VLANs. Tristan On 7 Apr 2015, at 11:15 am, Chuck Enfield chu...@psu.edu wrote: We just made this decision in regards to two new res halls. We opted for cables only where we need them now. The logic is that the pathways and telecom rooms are sized in such a way that these cables can easily be added later if needed. Had the new buildings been like most of our res halls, where new cabling can only be added with major construction work or surface mounted conduit installed onto ceilings (Can you say ugly?), we would have gone with a cable in every room. FWIW, I expect to put an AP in every room eventually, even though I don’t know exactly what will drive it or when it will happen. My two leading scenarios are: 1) chip advances and the need for spectrum push WLANs into to 60Ghz and an AP at that frequency can’t cover more than one room, or 2) the ever-increasing need for bandwidth requires us to get all connection using 256QAM, which is unlikely to work reliably through walls. Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Hunter Fuller Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 7:50 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment Depending on how you are running the cable, you could run it to each room, but with the possibility of pulling it back to put APs in hallways instead, or to reposition. If you have drop ceilings you can leave like 10ft service loop to allow freedom of moving them within the rooms. Etc, etc. These might allow you to defer the decision, or to change your mind later based on real life results. I tend in this direction because two of our Resnet buildings have proven to be interesting with regards to wireless penetration and performance. I wish we had left some flexibility in those cases. -- Hunter Fuller OIT Sent from my phone. On Apr 6, 2015 6:42 PM, Peter P Morrissey ppmor...@syr.edu mailto:ppmor...@syr.edu wrote: Since cabling tends to have a 15-20 year life cycle, and can be expensive and disruptive to install, why not just run a cable to each room while you have the opportunity? Then you can use your survey tools to decide where to place the AP's. This gives you the option of reconfiguring down the road if that doesn't work out. It also gives you the option of adding more density if necessary. There will be multiple generations of wireless technology during the lifetime of the cable and the agility added by the additional cable could come in handy. Pete Morrissey -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Doug Burke Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 7:29 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment All, Last year we cabled our campus classrooms and administrative offices with CAT6a preparing for the deployment of Wav 2 802.11ac. We are about to begin Phase II of the cabling project in our residence halls and we are looking for input from others on whether to plan for one AP per room or trust our survey tools. I expect most of you will say it depends and we understand the complexities of building construction. We have deployed 70 Wav 1 APs as a Proof of Concept (POC) testing them in different types of building construction but would like to hear other's experiences in particular to residence halls. Thank you for your help. Douglas Burke Senior Director '13 MSEL, BSBA Network Infrastructure Systems Services University of San Diego ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/ http://www.educause.edu/groups
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment
Cisco says to use 40 Mhz channels on 5 Ghz if you have the channels to support it. We have more than enough channels in our deployments to avoid overlap, so we have 40 Mhz turned on. We are also disabling 11b and 11a data rates to weed out the few slower older clients. Since almost all our 5 Ghz clients are 11n or 11ac they will all take advantage of the 40 Mhz. I agree with Cisco, if you can use 40 Mhz without any serious impact, make the change from 20 to 40. http://www.cisco.com/web/strategy/docs/education/cisco_wlan_design_guide.pdf Kevin McCormick Western Illinois University On 4/10/2015 10:31 PM, Bruce Curtis wrote: This doc recommends 20 MHz wide channels for high density deployments but have 40 MHz channels campus wide. We especially wanted 40 MHz channels for large classrooms or auditoriums where we have 6 APs for 100 to 300 students. (With 2.4 GHz enabled on only 3 of the APs). Our APs are not deployed densely enough to cause any channel overlap, even with 40 MHz channels. Even in our pilot project for the residence halls with an AP in every 3rd room (max one wall between client and AP) we don’t see any channel overlap with 40 MHz channels. In that building APs hear at most 1 other AP at -63 dB and the rest are -75 dB or lower. We have some res hall buildings that 5 GHz travels vertically very well compared to horizontally. Even in those buildings APs that are two floors apart hear each other at -71 dB to -76 dB. So in those buildings we might end up setting the 5 GHz power down or if that does not work then we would use 20 MHz wide channels. https://www.wjcomms.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Tuning-Cisco-WLC’s-for-High-Density-Deployments-v3.pdf On Apr 10, 2015, at 12:26 PM, Dan Brisson dbris...@uvm.edu wrote: Just my 2 cents, but the killer app to me with 40mhz is that a client operating at the higher data rates means less time on channel which means better overall performance (lower channel utilization). We've been doing 40mhz for a LONG time now with no noticeable issues. -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111 dbris...@uvm.edu On 4/10/15 12:37 PM, Eric T. Barnett wrote: All 20 MHz here. I like not having to deal with channel interference and I’m not seeing a “killer app” for 40 MHz. Eric Barnett Wireless Administrator Information and Technology Services Arkansas State University 870 680 4243 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Heath Barnhart Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 11:10 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment Ruckus R700 for the APs. I aware of the possibility of saturation, but I'd rather have the devices in place and try pulling back the transmit power than find out later I need more APs. I don't have the dimensions in front of me, but I did take that into account when planning it. Out of curiosity how many people are running 20 Mhz channels on 5GHz? -- Heath Barnhart ITS Network Administrator Washburn University Topeka, KS On Fri, 2015-04-10 at 14:38 +, Hinson, Matthew P wrote: Just curious, how big are the rooms that you’re putting these in? What model APs, and what are the walls made of? Most places I’ve seen do this end up disabling the radios on 1/3 of the APs or sometimes half of them to combat co-channel interference. If you aren’t using UNII-2e/DFS channels, you’ve only got 4 non-overlapping 40MHz channels. It CAN work if your antenna selection and building layout/construction allow for it. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Heath Barnhart Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 10:07 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment We also have a new ResHall on the way. I'm putting an AP in every suite and will adjust power levels as needed. We are pulling two Cat6 to each location. Like many, I'm not seeing high utilization out of any of our existing APs, so I'm not too worried about overwhelming the link and therefore can't justify running Cat6a. At the moment the plan is to install Wave1 APs as well, and I'm staying with 40 MHz channels on 5Ghz, so the total bandwidth required would be below 1 Gbps anyways. -- Heath Barnhart ITS Network Administrator Washburn University Topeka, KS On Mon, 2015-04-06 at 23:28 +, Doug Burke wrote: All, Last year we cabled our campus classrooms and administrative offices with CAT6a preparing for the deployment of Wav 2 802.11ac. We are about to begin Phase II of the cabling project in our residence halls and we are looking for input from others on whether to plan for one AP per room or trust our survey tools. I expect most of you will say it depends and we understand the complexities of building construction. We have
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment
This doc recommends 20 MHz wide channels for high density deployments but have 40 MHz channels campus wide. We especially wanted 40 MHz channels for large classrooms or auditoriums where we have 6 APs for 100 to 300 students. (With 2.4 GHz enabled on only 3 of the APs). Our APs are not deployed densely enough to cause any channel overlap, even with 40 MHz channels. Even in our pilot project for the residence halls with an AP in every 3rd room (max one wall between client and AP) we don’t see any channel overlap with 40 MHz channels. In that building APs hear at most 1 other AP at -63 dB and the rest are -75 dB or lower. We have some res hall buildings that 5 GHz travels vertically very well compared to horizontally. Even in those buildings APs that are two floors apart hear each other at -71 dB to -76 dB. So in those buildings we might end up setting the 5 GHz power down or if that does not work then we would use 20 MHz wide channels. https://www.wjcomms.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Tuning-Cisco-WLC’s-for-High-Density-Deployments-v3.pdf On Apr 10, 2015, at 12:26 PM, Dan Brisson dbris...@uvm.edu wrote: Just my 2 cents, but the killer app to me with 40mhz is that a client operating at the higher data rates means less time on channel which means better overall performance (lower channel utilization). We've been doing 40mhz for a LONG time now with no noticeable issues. -dan Dan Brisson Network Engineer University of Vermont (Ph) 802.656.8111 dbris...@uvm.edu On 4/10/15 12:37 PM, Eric T. Barnett wrote: All 20 MHz here. I like not having to deal with channel interference and I’m not seeing a “killer app” for 40 MHz. Eric Barnett Wireless Administrator Information and Technology Services Arkansas State University 870 680 4243 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Heath Barnhart Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 11:10 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment Ruckus R700 for the APs. I aware of the possibility of saturation, but I'd rather have the devices in place and try pulling back the transmit power than find out later I need more APs. I don't have the dimensions in front of me, but I did take that into account when planning it. Out of curiosity how many people are running 20 Mhz channels on 5GHz? -- Heath Barnhart ITS Network Administrator Washburn University Topeka, KS On Fri, 2015-04-10 at 14:38 +, Hinson, Matthew P wrote: Just curious, how big are the rooms that you’re putting these in? What model APs, and what are the walls made of? Most places I’ve seen do this end up disabling the radios on 1/3 of the APs or sometimes half of them to combat co-channel interference. If you aren’t using UNII-2e/DFS channels, you’ve only got 4 non-overlapping 40MHz channels. It CAN work if your antenna selection and building layout/construction allow for it. From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Heath Barnhart Sent: Friday, April 10, 2015 10:07 AM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment We also have a new ResHall on the way. I'm putting an AP in every suite and will adjust power levels as needed. We are pulling two Cat6 to each location. Like many, I'm not seeing high utilization out of any of our existing APs, so I'm not too worried about overwhelming the link and therefore can't justify running Cat6a. At the moment the plan is to install Wave1 APs as well, and I'm staying with 40 MHz channels on 5Ghz, so the total bandwidth required would be below 1 Gbps anyways. -- Heath Barnhart ITS Network Administrator Washburn University Topeka, KS On Mon, 2015-04-06 at 23:28 +, Doug Burke wrote: All, Last year we cabled our campus classrooms and administrative offices with CAT6a preparing for the deployment of Wav 2 802.11ac. We are about to begin Phase II of the cabling project in our residence halls and we are looking for input from others on whether to plan for one AP per room or trust our survey tools. I expect most of you will say it depends and we understand the complexities of building construction. We have deployed 70 Wav 1 APs as a Proof of Concept (POC) testing them in different types of building construction but would like to hear other's experiences in particular to residence halls. Thank you for your help. Douglas Burke Senior Director '13 MSEL, BSBA Network Infrastructure Systems Services University of San Diego ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment
On Apr 8, 2015, at 8:37 AM, Brian Helman bhel...@salemstate.edu wrote: Our general rule will be to install radios such that no space is more than 1 wall away. That is our goal for our residence halls also. Yes, it depends what the wall is. Just as large an issue is, how many cables are you running to each location? We are running two Cat6's. -Brian -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Doug Burke Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 7:29 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment All, Last year we cabled our campus classrooms and administrative offices with CAT6a preparing for the deployment of Wav 2 802.11ac. We are about to begin Phase II of the cabling project in our residence halls and we are looking for input from others on whether to plan for one AP per room or trust our survey tools. I expect most of you will say it depends and we understand the complexities of building construction. We have deployed 70 Wav 1 APs as a Proof of Concept (POC) testing them in different types of building construction but would like to hear other's experiences in particular to residence halls. Thank you for your help. Douglas Burke Senior Director '13 MSEL, BSBA Network Infrastructure Systems Services University of San Diego ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. --- Bruce Curtis bruce.cur...@ndsu.edu Certified NetAnalyst II701-231-8527 North Dakota State University ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment
Depending on how you are running the cable, you could run it to each room, but with the possibility of pulling it back to put APs in hallways instead, or to reposition. If you have drop ceilings you can leave like 10ft service loop to allow freedom of moving them within the rooms. Etc, etc. These might allow you to defer the decision, or to change your mind later based on real life results. I tend in this direction because two of our Resnet buildings have proven to be interesting with regards to wireless penetration and performance. I wish we had left some flexibility in those cases. -- Hunter Fuller OIT Sent from my phone. On Apr 6, 2015 6:42 PM, Peter P Morrissey ppmor...@syr.edu wrote: Since cabling tends to have a 15-20 year life cycle, and can be expensive and disruptive to install, why not just run a cable to each room while you have the opportunity? Then you can use your survey tools to decide where to place the AP's. This gives you the option of reconfiguring down the road if that doesn't work out. It also gives you the option of adding more density if necessary. There will be multiple generations of wireless technology during the lifetime of the cable and the agility added by the additional cable could come in handy. Pete Morrissey -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Doug Burke Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 7:29 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment All, Last year we cabled our campus classrooms and administrative offices with CAT6a preparing for the deployment of Wav 2 802.11ac. We are about to begin Phase II of the cabling project in our residence halls and we are looking for input from others on whether to plan for one AP per room or trust our survey tools. I expect most of you will say it depends and we understand the complexities of building construction. We have deployed 70 Wav 1 APs as a Proof of Concept (POC) testing them in different types of building construction but would like to hear other's experiences in particular to residence halls. Thank you for your help. Douglas Burke Senior Director '13 MSEL, BSBA Network Infrastructure Systems Services University of San Diego ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment
We just made this decision in regards to two new res halls. We opted for cables only where we need them now. The logic is that the pathways and telecom rooms are sized in such a way that these cables can easily be added later if needed. Had the new buildings been like most of our res halls, where new cabling can only be added with major construction work or surface mounted conduit installed onto ceilings (Can you say ugly?), we would have gone with a cable in every room. FWIW, I expect to put an AP in every room eventually, even though I don’t know exactly what will drive it or when it will happen. My two leading scenarios are: 1) chip advances and the need for spectrum push WLANs into to 60Ghz and an AP at that frequency can’t cover more than one room, or 2) the ever-increasing need for bandwidth requires us to get all connection using 256QAM, which is unlikely to work reliably through walls. Chuck Enfield Manager, Wireless Systems Engineering Telecommunications Networking Services The Pennsylvania State University 110H, USB2, UP, PA 16802 ph: 814.863.8715 fx: 814.865.3988 From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Hunter Fuller Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 7:50 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment Depending on how you are running the cable, you could run it to each room, but with the possibility of pulling it back to put APs in hallways instead, or to reposition. If you have drop ceilings you can leave like 10ft service loop to allow freedom of moving them within the rooms. Etc, etc. These might allow you to defer the decision, or to change your mind later based on real life results. I tend in this direction because two of our Resnet buildings have proven to be interesting with regards to wireless penetration and performance. I wish we had left some flexibility in those cases. -- Hunter Fuller OIT Sent from my phone. On Apr 6, 2015 6:42 PM, Peter P Morrissey ppmor...@syr.edu wrote: Since cabling tends to have a 15-20 year life cycle, and can be expensive and disruptive to install, why not just run a cable to each room while you have the opportunity? Then you can use your survey tools to decide where to place the AP's. This gives you the option of reconfiguring down the road if that doesn't work out. It also gives you the option of adding more density if necessary. There will be multiple generations of wireless technology during the lifetime of the cable and the agility added by the additional cable could come in handy. Pete Morrissey -Original Message- From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Constituent Group Listserv [mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Doug Burke Sent: Monday, April 06, 2015 7:29 PM To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] 802.11ac AP Deployment All, Last year we cabled our campus classrooms and administrative offices with CAT6a preparing for the deployment of Wav 2 802.11ac. We are about to begin Phase II of the cabling project in our residence halls and we are looking for input from others on whether to plan for one AP per room or trust our survey tools. I expect most of you will say it depends and we understand the complexities of building construction. We have deployed 70 Wav 1 APs as a Proof of Concept (POC) testing them in different types of building construction but would like to hear other's experiences in particular to residence halls. Thank you for your help. Douglas Burke Senior Director '13 MSEL, BSBA Network Infrastructure Systems Services University of San Diego ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/. ** Participation and subscription information for this EDUCAUSE Constituent Group discussion list can be found at http://www.educause.edu/groups/.
