RE: [External] Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

[Jeffrey D. Sessler]

We've never used rate limits.  Doing the math, the price for larger internet 
pipes was significantly less that the rate/traffic shaping technology plus 
related FTE staffing costs.

Jeff

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Adam T. Ferrero
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 4:12 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] [External] Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest 
Wi-Fi


  Once we got all our pipes bigger than most folks could use, we dropped all 
the rate limiting games we were playing.  It's simpler and easier to operate.  
On the wired side, when we were increasing from 10 to 100 to gig we used to 
wrongly think they're going to use it all up and our upstream pipes will have 
to be massive to deal with it.  Users just use what they need/want and when you 
raise their throughput ceiling they'll just get it faster and get out of the 
way.  Third party optics and internet bandwidth are all cheap now.

  Adam

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
On Behalf Of Martin MacLeod-Brown
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 3:12 AM
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: [External] Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

That is an interesting question. I believe (perhaps wrongly) that rate limiting 
increases Wi-Fi inefficiency as you are then forcing the client to stay on the 
medium longer to transmit/receive data?
We used to rate limit back in the day, but then removed all limits when we went 
to 802.11ac and didn't notice any impact to the network...

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Curtis K. Larsen
Sent: 13 April 2021 00:21
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

Hello,

Curious to know if any have removed or recently raised the rate limit on the 
Guest Wi-Fi network at your institution, particularly large universities or 
hospitals.  If you have taken that step how is it going?  Also curious to hear 
what speeds you rate limit to if it is rate limited and how you came to that 
conclusion.

Thanks,

--
Curtis K. Larsen
Wireless Network Engineer III
The University of Utah


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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

[Jemes, Brian (je...@uidaho.edu)]

Hi Curtis,

Last month, we removed the “per IP” rate limit on guest Wi-Fi, but we kept an 
aggregate rate limit on guest internet traffic.

We have a captive portal that collects and confirms contact information before 
allowing guest Wi-Fi access.
Guest Wi-Fi authorization is cleared at 3am each day, so guest devices must 
confirm contact info once a day.

Prior to removing the “per IP” rate limit, it was set to:
100Mbps download
10Mbps upload

Thanks,
Brian.
University of Idaho
Network Manager

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Felix Windt
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 5:51 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

Three or four years ago we removed all filters, captive portals for terms of 
service, and bandwidth restrictions from our guest network. It’s now a wide 
open SSID that goes straight out to the Internet, but needs to traverse the 
same set of security tools to reach campus resources as any other connection 
initiated from the Internet. We haven’t had any issues with this whatsoever.

thx,
felix

Felix Windt
Dartmouth Network Services

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>> 
on behalf of "Curtis K. Larsen" 
mailto:curtis.k.lar...@utah.edu>>
Reply-To: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>>
Date: Monday, April 12, 2021 at 7:20 PM
To: 
"WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>" 
mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>>
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

Hello,

Curious to know if any have removed or recently raised the rate limit on the 
Guest Wi-Fi network at your institution, particularly large universities or 
hospitals.  If you have taken that step how is it going?  Also curious to hear 
what speeds you rate limit to if it is rate limited and how you came to that 
conclusion.

Thanks,

--
Curtis K. Larsen
Wireless Network Engineer III
The University of Utah


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Re: [External] [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

[Smith, Nayef]

We impose a 5mbps limit for our guest users with a 24 hour expiration time for 
guest accounts.  We use a captive portal for guest registration.  Students can 
self-register personal devices to operate without limits or daily expiration 
using a university credential via a private portal.

We have an open discussion regarding increasing the 24 hour expiration timer 
for hospital guests.  The current suggestion is to increase that to 72 hours 
for the convenience of patients and families.


Nayef Z. Smith | Network Services | Voice: 404-727-6019

[cid:f09cb492-1a80-4484-82db-b65deed33048]

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 on behalf of Norton, Thomas (Network 
Operations) 
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 11:05 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU 
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] [External] [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

So we currently impose 20mbps limits for our guest users. We essentially found 
this to be a safe threshold for our users, and still provides a decent 
experience for our guest. However, We do not limit our lpv environments.

This is mainly to deter our students from utilizing our secure ssid which is 
wide open bandwidth wise, as our guest network is deployed everywhere on campus.

We’re not concerned about our bandwidth limits otherwise. As we run redundant 
10 and 40gig uplink connections throughout our network, with multiple 10gig 
pipes.

As David said, making sure your txrates match is very important.



T.J. Norton

Wireless Network Architect
Network Operations

Office: (434) 592-6552



[http://www.liberty.edu/media/1616/40themail/wordmark-for-email.jpg]

Liberty University  |  Training Champions for Christ since 1971

On Apr 12, 2021, at 7:20 PM, Curtis K. Larsen  wrote:




[ EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click any links or open attachments unless you know 
the sender and trust the content. ]


Hello,

Curious to know if any have removed or recently raised the rate limit on the 
Guest Wi-Fi network at your institution, particularly large universities or 
hospitals.  If you have taken that step how is it going?  Also curious to hear 
what speeds you rate limit to if it is rate limited and how you came to that 
conclusion.

Thanks,


--
Curtis K. Larsen
Wireless Network Engineer III
The University of Utah


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Re: [External] [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

[Norton, Thomas (Network Operations)]

So we currently impose 20mbps limits for our guest users. We essentially found 
this to be a safe threshold for our users, and still provides a decent 
experience for our guest. However, We do not limit our lpv environments.

This is mainly to deter our students from utilizing our secure ssid which is 
wide open bandwidth wise, as our guest network is deployed everywhere on campus.

We’re not concerned about our bandwidth limits otherwise. As we run redundant 
10 and 40gig uplink connections throughout our network, with multiple 10gig 
pipes.

As David said, making sure your txrates match is very important.


T.J. Norton
Wireless Network Architect
Network Operations

Office: (434) 592-6552

[http://www.liberty.edu/media/1616/40themail/wordmark-for-email.jpg]

Liberty University  |  Training Champions for Christ since 1971

On Apr 12, 2021, at 7:20 PM, Curtis K. Larsen  wrote:




[ EXTERNAL EMAIL: Do not click any links or open attachments unless you know 
the sender and trust the content. ]


Hello,

Curious to know if any have removed or recently raised the rate limit on the 
Guest Wi-Fi network at your institution, particularly large universities or 
hospitals.  If you have taken that step how is it going?  Also curious to hear 
what speeds you rate limit to if it is rate limited and how you came to that 
conclusion.

Thanks,


--
Curtis K. Larsen
Wireless Network Engineer III
The University of Utah


**
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list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional participation 
and subscription information can be found at 
https://www.educause.edu/community

**
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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

[David Logan]

Couple of technical comments:

1. Unless the rate-limiting was somehow incorporated into the WiFi AP and
doing funny WiFi / L4 protocol trickery for the enforcement mechanism to
achieve rate limiting, the transmit rate from the AP to the Client should
be as fast as the negotiated/determined WiFi TxRate is to the client and
from the client.   Vendors (like us at Aruba) have implemented features
that purposefully conduct such WiFi trickery to create "airtime fairness"
conditions or "preferential client" conditions.  But this isn't for
broadband/internet bandwidth consumption controls.

2.  Even if the upstream packetshaper is doing funny L3/L4/L7 protocol
things to reduce effective bandwidth consumption, each network link in the
topology will (should) transmit at fastest possible speeds.

3.  While there COULD be resulting consequences from an app/protocols
behavior that leads to more frequent packet transmissions on the network (
for example, more TCP ACKs being necessary due to more numerous TCP segment
transmissions) - these effects should be negligible, even on the WiFi
network


On Tue, Apr 13, 2021 at 3:57 AM Martin MacLeod-Brown 
wrote:

> That is an interesting question. I believe (perhaps wrongly) that rate
> limiting increases Wi-Fi inefficiency as you are then forcing the client to
> stay on the medium longer to transmit/receive data?
>
> We used to rate limit back in the day, but then removed all limits when we
> went to 802.11ac and didn’t notice any impact to the network…
>
>
>
> *From:* The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv [mailto:
> WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] *On Behalf Of *Curtis K. Larsen
> *Sent:* 13 April 2021 00:21
> *To:* WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
> *Subject:* [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi
>
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
>
> Curious to know if any have removed or recently raised the rate limit on
> the Guest Wi-Fi network at your institution, particularly large
> universities or hospitals.  If you have taken that step how is it going?
> Also curious to hear what speeds you rate limit to if it is rate limited
> and how you came to that conclusion.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> --
>
> Curtis K. Larsen
> *Wireless Network Engineer III*
>
> The University of Utah
>
>
>
> **
> Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire
> community list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the
> message, copy and paste their email address and forward the email reply.
> Additional participation and subscription information can be found at
> https://www.educause.edu/community
>
> **
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> community list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the
> message, copy and paste their email address and forward the email reply.
> Additional participation and subscription information can be found at
> https://www.educause.edu/community
>

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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

[Felix Windt]

Three or four years ago we removed all filters, captive portals for terms of 
service, and bandwidth restrictions from our guest network. It’s now a wide 
open SSID that goes straight out to the Internet, but needs to traverse the 
same set of security tools to reach campus resources as any other connection 
initiated from the Internet. We haven’t had any issues with this whatsoever.

thx,
felix

Felix Windt
Dartmouth Network Services

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 on behalf of "Curtis K. Larsen" 

Reply-To: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 

Date: Monday, April 12, 2021 at 7:20 PM
To: "WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU" 
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

Hello,

Curious to know if any have removed or recently raised the rate limit on the 
Guest Wi-Fi network at your institution, particularly large universities or 
hospitals.  If you have taken that step how is it going?  Also curious to hear 
what speeds you rate limit to if it is rate limited and how you came to that 
conclusion.

Thanks,

--
Curtis K. Larsen
Wireless Network Engineer III
The University of Utah


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RE: [WIRELESS-LAN] [External] [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

[Bible, Landy]

In the past we had packet shapers that limited flows to 10mbps each in the 
residential areas and wifi. At some point we raised the limit to 100mbps and 
didn't see any obvious flows causing any issues. Eventually we upgraded our 
internet connections past 1gbps and outgrew the packet shaper models we had. 
Rather than upgrade to faster shapers we just removed them entirely and have 
kept an eye on traffic levels to address people abusing the service on a case 
by case basis but like Hunter we haven't had to deal with it.

We're getting close to needing to upgrade one of our internet links, but for 
now some clever traffic engineering has kept inbound flows balanced between our 
two ISPs well enough that we're okay. But over the past year we've upgraded our 
wifi to solve some major issues in the dorms that were acting like rate limits 
because of the poor RF environment in those areas. I suspect that when our 
campus gets back to normal and all our students are back in person we're going 
to quickly run out of bandwidth, but the discussions about it have always been 
"lets plan to upgrade the internet circuits" and not "lets start rate limiting 
again".

--
Landy Bible
​Senior Network Engineer
The University of Tulsa

-Original Message-
From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Hunter Fuller
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2021 7:38 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] [External] [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

We have 10k students and we removed the guest network rate limit in 2015. We 
figured we would keep an eye on "top talkers" and address issues on a 
case-by-case basis, but we have had no issues of this type, so it hasn't really 
come up.

--
Hunter Fuller (they)
Router Jockey
VBH Annex B-5
+1 256 824 5331

Office of Information Technology
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Network Engineering


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 6:20 PM Curtis K. Larsen  
wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Curious to know if any have removed or recently raised the rate limit on the 
> Guest Wi-Fi network at your institution, particularly large universities or 
> hospitals.  If you have taken that step how is it going?  Also curious to 
> hear what speeds you rate limit to if it is rate limited and how you came to 
> that conclusion.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Curtis K. Larsen
> Wireless Network Engineer III
> The University of Utah
>
> **
> Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire 
> community list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the 
> message, copy and paste their email address and forward the email 
> reply. Additional participation and subscription information can be 
> found at 
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> educause.edu%2Fcommunitydata=04%7C01%7Clandy-bible%40UTULSA.EDU%7
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RE: [External] Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

[Adam T. Ferrero]

  Once we got all our pipes bigger than most folks could use, we dropped all 
the rate limiting games we were playing.  It's simpler and easier to operate.  
On the wired side, when we were increasing from 10 to 100 to gig we used to 
wrongly think they're going to use it all up and our upstream pipes will have 
to be massive to deal with it.  Users just use what they need/want and when you 
raise their throughput ceiling they'll just get it faster and get out of the 
way.  Third party optics and internet bandwidth are all cheap now.

  Adam

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Martin MacLeod-Brown
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 3:12 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

That is an interesting question. I believe (perhaps wrongly) that rate limiting 
increases Wi-Fi inefficiency as you are then forcing the client to stay on the 
medium longer to transmit/receive data?
We used to rate limit back in the day, but then removed all limits when we went 
to 802.11ac and didn't notice any impact to the network...

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
[mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU] On Behalf Of Curtis K. Larsen
Sent: 13 April 2021 00:21
To: 
WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU<mailto:WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU>
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

Hello,

Curious to know if any have removed or recently raised the rate limit on the 
Guest Wi-Fi network at your institution, particularly large universities or 
hospitals.  If you have taken that step how is it going?  Also curious to hear 
what speeds you rate limit to if it is rate limited and how you came to that 
conclusion.

Thanks,

--
Curtis K. Larsen
Wireless Network Engineer III
The University of Utah


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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

[Julian Y Koh]

On Apr 12, 2021, at 18:20, Curtis K. Larsen 
mailto:curtis.k.lar...@utah.edu>> wrote:

Curious to know if any have removed or recently raised the rate limit on the 
Guest Wi-Fi network at your institution, particularly large universities or 
hospitals.  If you have taken that step how is it going?  Also curious to hear 
what speeds you rate limit to if it is rate limited and how you came to that 
conclusion.

When we first rolled out guest wi-fi I don’t know how many years ago, we rate 
limited things to 3Mbps per device.  A number of years ago, we upped it to 
10Mbps.  The general thinking was that people should probably be able to watch 
1 HD video stream comfortably.

--
Julian Y. Koh
Associate Director, Telecommunications and Network Services
Northwestern Information Technology

2020 Ridge Avenue #331
Evanston, IL 60208
+1-847-467-5780
Northwestern IT Web Site: 
PGP Public Key: 


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Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

[James Andrewartha]

On 13/4/21 7:20 am, Curtis K. Larsen wrote:
> Curious to know if any have removed or recently raised the rate limit on
> the Guest Wi-Fi network at your institution, particularly large
> universities or hospitals.  If you have taken that step how is it
> going?  Also curious to hear what speeds you rate limit to if it is rate
> limited and how you came to that conclusion.  

There was a talk on this at WLPC Phoenix 2019 about this
https://wlanprofessionals.com/the-netflix-effect-on-guest-wi-fi-jim-palmer-wlpc-phoenix-2019/

-- 
James Andrewartha
Network & Projects Engineer
Christ Church Grammar School
Claremont, Western Australia
Ph. (08) 9442 1757
Mob. 0424 160 877

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Re: [External] [WIRELESS-LAN] Rate Limits on Guest Wi-Fi

[Hunter Fuller]

We have 10k students and we removed the guest network rate limit in
2015. We figured we would keep an eye on "top talkers" and address
issues on a case-by-case basis, but we have had no issues of this
type, so it hasn't really come up.

--
Hunter Fuller (they)
Router Jockey
VBH Annex B-5
+1 256 824 5331

Office of Information Technology
The University of Alabama in Huntsville
Network Engineering


On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 6:20 PM Curtis K. Larsen
 wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Curious to know if any have removed or recently raised the rate limit on the 
> Guest Wi-Fi network at your institution, particularly large universities or 
> hospitals.  If you have taken that step how is it going?  Also curious to 
> hear what speeds you rate limit to if it is rate limited and how you came to 
> that conclusion.
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> Curtis K. Larsen
> Wireless Network Engineer III
> The University of Utah
>
> **
> Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire community 
> list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the message, copy and 
> paste their email address and forward the email reply. Additional 
> participation and subscription information can be found at 
> https://www.educause.edu/community

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