Re: Fast transition roaming

[Seth Bean]

We have dual band for both branded SSID and Eduroam, but we disabled 802.11k  
because of the unsupported clients. We are an Extreme Networks client. Never 
had any problems without this, in fact we run two separate controllers for AX 
radios and AC radios and have no trouble with roaming between the systems. 
There were way too many pains having k and r enabled, and Extreme has been good 
on enabling fast transitions between APs and controllers. I have found that 
higher Ed with its high BYOD is slow to transition to technology that requires 
client compatibility.

Seth Bean
Administrator of Networks and Telecommunications
MCLA APA Chapter President
Massachusetts College of Liberal Arts
413.662.5022
413.663.1276
375 Church Street
North Adams,
MA 01247


"National Top Ten
Public Liberal Arts College"
2019 US News & World Report

MCLA

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 on behalf of Glinsky, Eric 
Sent: Friday, December 4, 2020 9:47:27 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU 
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Fast transition roaming

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of MCLA. Do not click links or open 
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.


Thanks, Jenn, I had forgotten about Mike Albano's list and have bookmarked it 
for future reference!

As an aside, I remember some of you mentioning utilizing two different SSIDs to 
improve client experience. For example, your branded SSID would be 5 GHz only, 
and eduroam would be dual-band for legacy clients. For any of you who do this, 
do you also have 802.11r and .11k enabled on one but not the other? And does 
having the separate SSIDs cause a lot of confusion and help desk calls?

-Original Message-
From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Jennifer Minella
Sent: Friday, December 4, 2020 9:34 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Fast transition roaming

*Message sent from a system outside of UConn.*


Eric,
Admittedly I'm skimming here, but wanted to just throw in the note that 
ultimately it's up to whether the client supports the various roaming 
protocols. Not all do, and there's no (IMO) intuitive line there, no pattern or 
specific date, etc. at which point you can easily say "this client would 
support xyz". I'm not cool enough to remember all the details of what all 
clients support. There's some info at 
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fclients.mikealbano.com%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ceg%40UCONN.EDU%7C0c401a08d4a24219671c08d89861b196%7C17f1a87e2a254eaab9df9d439034b080%7C0%7C0%7C637426892645029925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=wl9VhsiKHstLHqEDziQNIUSMtjBQ5Wcm9eBLdQmqdo4%3Dreserved=0
 I refer to regularly - if you pop that out it has the 11v protocol but it 
doesn't look it lists 11k or 11r unfortunately. Someone else here may have 
another resource that's better for roaming info.

+1 on CTS (Clear to Send) podcast links Jethro sent, great peeps and info!

Hope that helps a tiny bit!
-jj

___
Jennifer Minella, CISSP, HP MASE
VP of Engineering & Security
Carolina Advanced Digital, Inc.
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cadinc.com%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ceg%40UCONN.EDU%7C0c401a08d4a24219671c08d89861b196%7C17f1a87e2a254eaab9df9d439034b080%7C0%7C0%7C637426892645029925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=9fpv9jLgkJmtak8%2Bl5Xb1U50ID%2BYIUw7mQob6u97%2FcA%3Dreserved=0
j...@cadinc.com
919.460.1313 Main Office
919.539.2726 Mobile/text


-Original Message-
From: Jethro R Binks 
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: Fast transition roaming

Clear To Send podcast had several episodes/posts covering these (and v):

  
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cleartosend.net%2F802-11k-802-11v%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ceg%40UCONN.EDU%7C0c401a08d4a24219671c08d89861b196%7C17f1a87e2a254eaab9df9d439034b080%7C0%7C0%7C637426892645029925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=MgfN30CW%2BMjDEFDGt9RAdRY6rCMusq39BHy3RYLsvBE%3Dreserved=0

  
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cleartosend.net%2Fcts-206-a-look-into-802-11k%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ceg%40UCONN.EDU%7C0c401a08d4a24219671c08d89861b196%7C17f1a87e2a254eaab9df9d439034b080%7C0%7C0%7C637426892645029925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=hcsf93lzXN738vg3kntzsSaYM0pLRhk%2F2hWmFjAtdPA%3Dreserved=0

  
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cleartosend.net%2Fcts-211-a-look-into-802-11v%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ceg%40UCONN.EDU%7C0c401a08d4a24219671c08d89861b196%7C17f1a87e2a254eaab9df9d439034b080%7C0%7C0%7C

RE: Fast transition roaming

[Glinsky, Eric]

Thanks, Jenn, I had forgotten about Mike Albano's list and have bookmarked it 
for future reference!

As an aside, I remember some of you mentioning utilizing two different SSIDs to 
improve client experience. For example, your branded SSID would be 5 GHz only, 
and eduroam would be dual-band for legacy clients. For any of you who do this, 
do you also have 802.11r and .11k enabled on one but not the other? And does 
having the separate SSIDs cause a lot of confusion and help desk calls?

-Original Message-
From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Jennifer Minella
Sent: Friday, December 4, 2020 9:34 AM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: Re: [WIRELESS-LAN] Fast transition roaming

*Message sent from a system outside of UConn.*


Eric,
Admittedly I'm skimming here, but wanted to just throw in the note that 
ultimately it's up to whether the client supports the various roaming 
protocols. Not all do, and there's no (IMO) intuitive line there, no pattern or 
specific date, etc. at which point you can easily say "this client would 
support xyz". I'm not cool enough to remember all the details of what all 
clients support. There's some info at 
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fclients.mikealbano.com%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ceg%40UCONN.EDU%7C0c401a08d4a24219671c08d89861b196%7C17f1a87e2a254eaab9df9d439034b080%7C0%7C0%7C637426892645029925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=wl9VhsiKHstLHqEDziQNIUSMtjBQ5Wcm9eBLdQmqdo4%3Dreserved=0
 I refer to regularly - if you pop that out it has the 11v protocol but it 
doesn't look it lists 11k or 11r unfortunately. Someone else here may have 
another resource that's better for roaming info.

+1 on CTS (Clear to Send) podcast links Jethro sent, great peeps and info!

Hope that helps a tiny bit!
-jj

___
Jennifer Minella, CISSP, HP MASE
VP of Engineering & Security
Carolina Advanced Digital, Inc.
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cadinc.com%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ceg%40UCONN.EDU%7C0c401a08d4a24219671c08d89861b196%7C17f1a87e2a254eaab9df9d439034b080%7C0%7C0%7C637426892645029925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=9fpv9jLgkJmtak8%2Bl5Xb1U50ID%2BYIUw7mQob6u97%2FcA%3Dreserved=0
j...@cadinc.com
919.460.1313 Main Office
919.539.2726 Mobile/text


-Original Message-
From: Jethro R Binks 
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: Fast transition roaming

Clear To Send podcast had several episodes/posts covering these (and v):

  
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cleartosend.net%2F802-11k-802-11v%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ceg%40UCONN.EDU%7C0c401a08d4a24219671c08d89861b196%7C17f1a87e2a254eaab9df9d439034b080%7C0%7C0%7C637426892645029925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=MgfN30CW%2BMjDEFDGt9RAdRY6rCMusq39BHy3RYLsvBE%3Dreserved=0

  
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cleartosend.net%2Fcts-206-a-look-into-802-11k%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ceg%40UCONN.EDU%7C0c401a08d4a24219671c08d89861b196%7C17f1a87e2a254eaab9df9d439034b080%7C0%7C0%7C637426892645029925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=hcsf93lzXN738vg3kntzsSaYM0pLRhk%2F2hWmFjAtdPA%3Dreserved=0

  
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cleartosend.net%2Fcts-211-a-look-into-802-11v%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ceg%40UCONN.EDU%7C0c401a08d4a24219671c08d89861b196%7C17f1a87e2a254eaab9df9d439034b080%7C0%7C0%7C637426892645029925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=fKYSN1qmfcnVDN%2BZCg0i5QwhE%2FXRcVQsEpmBTQ223ps%3Dreserved=0

  
https://nam10.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cleartosend.net%2Ffast-bss-transition-802-11r%2Fdata=04%7C01%7Ceg%40UCONN.EDU%7C0c401a08d4a24219671c08d89861b196%7C17f1a87e2a254eaab9df9d439034b080%7C0%7C0%7C637426892645029925%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=TIbYcG5zY85MDmbkgFl4UNrQOc5zxv%2BdnvLdg%2Fu86wU%3Dreserved=0


Jethro.

.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
Jethro R Binks, Network Manager,
Information Services Directorate, University Of Strathclyde, Glasgow, UK

The University of Strathclyde is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, 
number SC015263.



On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Glinsky, Eric wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> We are reviewing our WLAN-level settings and are curious about what others 
> institutions are doing for fast transition.
>
>
> 1.  Do you use 802.11r?
>
> 2.  How about .11k?
>
> 3.  If you do, did you notice improvements in device roaming, whether 
> they are stationary or movin

RE: Fast transition roaming

[Jennifer Minella]

Eric, 
Admittedly I'm skimming here, but wanted to just throw in the note that 
ultimately it's up to whether the client supports the various roaming 
protocols. Not all do, and there's no (IMO) intuitive line there, no pattern or 
specific date, etc. at which point you can easily say "this client would 
support xyz". I'm not cool enough to remember all the details of what all 
clients support. There's some info at https://clients.mikealbano.com/ I refer 
to regularly - if you pop that out it has the 11v protocol but it doesn't look 
it lists 11k or 11r unfortunately. Someone else here may have another resource 
that's better for roaming info. 

+1 on CTS (Clear to Send) podcast links Jethro sent, great peeps and info!

Hope that helps a tiny bit!
-jj

___
Jennifer Minella, CISSP, HP MASE
VP of Engineering & Security
Carolina Advanced Digital, Inc.
www.cadinc.com
j...@cadinc.com
919.460.1313 Main Office
919.539.2726 Mobile/text 


-Original Message-
From: Jethro R Binks  
Sent: Thursday, December 3, 2020 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: Fast transition roaming

Clear To Send podcast had several episodes/posts covering these (and v):

  https://www.cleartosend.net/802-11k-802-11v/

  https://www.cleartosend.net/cts-206-a-look-into-802-11k/

  https://www.cleartosend.net/cts-211-a-look-into-802-11v/

  https://www.cleartosend.net/fast-bss-transition-802-11r/


Jethro.

.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
Jethro R Binks, Network Manager,
Information Services Directorate, University Of Strathclyde, Glasgow, UK

The University of Strathclyde is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, 
number SC015263.



On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Glinsky, Eric wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> We are reviewing our WLAN-level settings and are curious about what others 
> institutions are doing for fast transition.
> 
> 
> 1.  Do you use 802.11r?
> 
> 2.  How about .11k?
> 
> 3.  If you do, did you notice improvements in device roaming, whether 
> they are stationary or moving?
> 
> 4.  Were there any implementation pains?
> 
> 5.  Would you mind sharing exactly which settings you use; in Cisco 
> terms, Fast Transition enabled or adaptive; over the DS checked or not; FT 
> 802.1x/FT psk or no; 11k neighbor list enabled or not
> 
> 6.  If you do not use 802.11k and/or 802.11r, why not?
> 
> We don't have 801.11r or 802.11k enabled at this point and are leery of 
> enabling it due to potential compatibility issues, though it could certainly 
> improve the client experience if it works.
> I looked through the archives and this hasn't been discussed for at least a 
> couple years, and it seemed like more of a Cisco code issue at that time, so 
> looking forward to hearing about your experiences now with the last code, 
> drivers, devices, etc.
> 
> I found an interesting blog on various FT settings with Cisco, which leads me 
> to believe that if we were to enable 802.11r on our Cisco controller, we 
> would set it to Enabled, and check off both 802.1x and FT 802.1x for 
> compatibility. Interestingly, the Adaptive setting is specific to Cisco-Apple.
> 
> https://mac-wifi.com/ciscos-802-11r-ft-settings-adaptive-mode-explaine
> d/
> 
> Also the Cisco Best Practices for iOS Devices guide has a couple sections on 
> 802.11r and Adaptive 802.11r. One takeaway from that is it's best for 
> high-density, enterprise environments to use over-the-air FT (i.e. over the 
> over-the-distribution system unchecked).
> https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/wireless/controller/technote
> s/8-6/Enterprise_Best_Practices_for_iOS_devices_and_Mac_computers_on_C
> isco_Wireless_LAN.pdf#%5B%7B%22num%22%3A40%2C%22gen%22%3A0%7D%2C%7B%22
> name%22%3A%22XYZ%22%7D%2C105%2C570%2C0%5D
> 
> Thanks,
> Eric Glinsky
> Network Administrator
> University of Connecticut
> ITS - Network Operations
> Temporary Administration Building
> 25 Gampel Service Drive | Storrs, CT 06269-1138
> (860) 486-9199
> e...@uconn.edu<mailto:e...@uconn.edu>
> 
> 
> **
> Replies to EDUCAUSE Community Group emails are sent to the entire 
> community list. If you want to reply only to the person who sent the 
> message, copy and paste their email address and forward the email 
> reply. Additional participation and subscription information can be 
> found at https://www.educause.edu/community
> 

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Visit https://cadinc.com/blog for tech articles and news.

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Replies to EDUCAUSE Co

RE: Fast transition roaming

[Dennis Xu]

Hi Eric,

Please see my answers below:


  1.  Do you use 802.11r?

Yes

  1.  How about .11k?

Yes

  1.  If you do, did you notice improvements in device roaming, whether they 
are stationary or moving?

We noticed the overall number of RADIUS requests/sec dropped by half after 
802.11r was enabled. It was a big improvement from that perspective.

  1.  Were there any implementation pains?

No. No complains. 11k was enabled several years back, and 11r was just enabled 
end of last year.

  1.  Would you mind sharing exactly which settings you use; in Cisco terms, 
Fast Transition enabled or adaptive; over the DS checked or not; FT 802.1x/FT 
psk or no; 11k neighbor list enabled or not

Fast Transition adaptive, Over the DS not checked(this is recommended by 
Cisco), 802.1X for AKM, 11K neighbor list enabled, 11k dual band not enabled.

For that blog, I don't know why he did not test the 802.1X AKM, but that works.

Dennis

Dennis Xu | Analyst III, Network Infrastructure, MAsc, CCIE(#13056), CISSP
Computing and Communications Services (CCS) | University of Guelph
University Centre | 50 Stone Rd E | Guelph, ON | N1G 2W1
519-824-4120 Ext. 56217 | d...@uoguelph.ca
www.uoguelph.ca/ccs | twitter.com/ccsnews | facebook.com/CCSUofG
[1503076355327_PastedImage]

From: The EDUCAUSE Wireless Issues Community Group Listserv 
 On Behalf Of Glinsky, Eric
Sent: Wednesday, December 2, 2020 3:57 PM
To: WIRELESS-LAN@LISTSERV.EDUCAUSE.EDU
Subject: [WIRELESS-LAN] Fast transition roaming

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the University of Guelph. Do not 
click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the 
content is safe. If in doubt, forward suspicious emails to 
ith...@uoguelph.ca

Hi everyone,

We are reviewing our WLAN-level settings and are curious about what others 
institutions are doing for fast transition.


  1.  Do you use 802.11r?
  2.  How about .11k?
  3.  If you do, did you notice improvements in device roaming, whether they 
are stationary or moving?
  4.  Were there any implementation pains?
  5.  Would you mind sharing exactly which settings you use; in Cisco terms, 
Fast Transition enabled or adaptive; over the DS checked or not; FT 802.1x/FT 
psk or no; 11k neighbor list enabled or not
  6.  If you do not use 802.11k and/or 802.11r, why not?

We don't have 801.11r or 802.11k enabled at this point and are leery of 
enabling it due to potential compatibility issues, though it could certainly 
improve the client experience if it works.

I looked through the archives and this hasn't been discussed for at least a 
couple years, and it seemed like more of a Cisco code issue at that time, so 
looking forward to hearing about your experiences now with the last code, 
drivers, devices, etc.

I found an interesting blog on various FT settings with Cisco, which leads me 
to believe that if we were to enable 802.11r on our Cisco controller, we would 
set it to Enabled, and check off both 802.1x and FT 802.1x for compatibility. 
Interestingly, the Adaptive setting is specific to Cisco-Apple.

https://mac-wifi.com/ciscos-802-11r-ft-settings-adaptive-mode-explained/

Also the Cisco Best Practices for iOS Devices guide has a couple sections on 
802.11r and Adaptive 802.11r. One takeaway from that is it's best for 
high-density, enterprise environments to use over-the-air FT (i.e. over the 
over-the-distribution system unchecked).
https://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/wireless/controller/technotes/8-6/Enterprise_Best_Practices_for_iOS_devices_and_Mac_computers_on_Cisco_Wireless_LAN.pdf#%5B%7B%22num%22%3A40%2C%22gen%22%3A0%7D%2C%7B%22name%22%3A%22XYZ%22%7D%2C105%2C570%2C0%5D

Thanks,
Eric Glinsky
Network Administrator
University of Connecticut
ITS - Network Operations
Temporary Administration Building
25 Gampel Service Drive | Storrs, CT 06269-1138
(860) 486-9199
e...@uconn.edu


**
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