Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
We spend about a day on admin of the program. Per month. So about $100. The problem out here is that we also have a ton of competition. And VERY rural markets. And LOT of spectrum competition. We can OFFER all of the higher grade services in the world, but we can't deliver them Plus

Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel

2009-11-08 Thread Rick Harnish
I get in today at about 1:00 pm. Rick Harnish 260-307-4000 -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Parr Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 11:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel I'm also stuck

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Eric Rogers
Are you suggesting some sort of metric to say they are over-using service and to move to a higher usage service? We have been All you can eat for years but we are at a point where demand is driving upgrades. I have always called the customer that used double what the norm was and explained that

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread 3-dB Networks
To interject a bit... Cricket is unlimited everything... that is actually how they market. They keep costs low by really only building in metropolitan areas and not subsidizing cell phone purchases (so all of their phones are crap). My wife has their service because a plan that meets her talk

Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel

2009-11-08 Thread Jeff Broadwick
We got a 4 star Hyatt for $65 on Priceline a week or so ago. Regards, Jeff Jeff Broadwick 800-813-5123 x106 (US/Can) +1 574-935-8484 x106 (Int'l) -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz Sent: Saturday,

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Jayson Baker
No, my unlimited cell phone plan is only $35/mo (Cricket). I did have to buy the phone though, ($50). On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: Unlimited cell phone? I don't buy it There's a limit, there always is. Also, is your unlimited cell

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Jayson Baker
Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long. On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but the problem I

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Eric Rogers
What happens when the teenager starts the streaming tv on the xbox and a friend shows up... decides to go down the street but leaves it running till mom and dad gets home at 6:00 PM? Then mom and dad decide to rent a movie. To me, I am counting on over-selling the bandwidth and that is

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Mike
There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for. This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are rising uses on ALL of our networks. Christmas is coming, so are new game consoles. I constantly

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
OK, in light of that. Have you run the calculations on what a 1 meg, 3 meg and 6 meg stream will use? Remember to count BOTH directions. Our average user is about 8x down vs. up. So a 3 meg incoming video stream also contains what, about 375k of outbound too. As I recall, when I figured

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
You've nailed the trick here Mike. What WE have to figure out how to do is move the billing with customer habits. As people move their seats from the TV to the computer we need to move that financial outflow from the video people to us BTW, dollars to donuts if you put in a per bit

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Faisal Imtiaz
Marlon, With all due respect, the math you presented is missing a factor and a bit rough :- Total number of seconds in a Month = 60seconds x 60 min x 24hrs x 30 (or 31) days = 2,592,000 (2,678,400) A TI is rated for 1.5mb/s (or 24 channels of 64K each)= 1536kbps = 1536 x 1024 (bits/sec)= /8 to

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
In addition, Cricket's support sucks. I would get an answering machine! And if you have a billing problem, forget it! On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 8:28 AM, 3-dB Networks wi...@3-db.net wrote: To interject a bit... Cricket is unlimited everything... that is actually how they market. They keep costs

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
Enjoy it while you can. It's amazing they are still in business! On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Jayson Baker jay...@spectrasurf.com wrote: No, my unlimited cell phone plan is only $35/mo (Cricket). I did have to buy the phone though, ($50). On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Marlon K.

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Josh Luthman
You get what you pay for. On 11/8/09, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread George Morris
Rick, there is a heck of a range of technology out there as you know. Anything from the old Alvarion hoppers to the new stuff using N from Ubiquiti and Mikrotik + dog. It isn't the same game anymore, provided you can get your Internet pipe(s) at a reasonable price. Guaranteed bandwidth from a

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
Fantastic discussion folks! This has been constantly on my mind since '97 when I paid $3500/month for a T1. Even more now with video moving to our networks. Marlon is right, proper implementaion is critical. When I started metered billing, I made sure everyone knew and that they had plenty of

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
Travis, I do agree with you that bandwidth eventually becomes less of a concern. I failed to make my point. I was responding to your comment that you have unlimited water which in my mind did not mesh with this discussion. Dont get me wrong, I'm looking for and appreciate your input. At any rate,

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
This is when I miss Charles Wu on this list. We built a comprehensive spreadsheet together once showing real numbers. Of course that was a long time ago and the numbers are obsolete. Perhaps its time to resurrect it? As Marlon said, there is limited capacity. That statement applies to us in many

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
George, I have not played with the N stuff. Mostly because I need to upgrade my towers. That is in the plans. Which is where this discussion s originating from. Anytime I spend money, I have to confirm it is worthwhile and will represent an ROI. Yes, bandwidth is coming down ever so slowly (here

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread George Morris
Rick, I'm not nearly brave enough to claim this is going to handle all our future needs, but from what I've see so far its going to help a lot over the next 2-3 years. We've been playing with both the Ubiquiti stuff and the MikroTik stuff for many months now and we're encouraged that there is a

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
We're going to have to learn a lot about that in a hurry. Thats the way the technology industry has always been in the 30+ years I've been a part of it. You're definitely in a different boat than we are. We're as rural as it gets. Bandwidth is worth more than gold, no density as far as

[WISPA] Government Loans and/or Grants

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
OK, so one of my subscribers happens to be close to the Governor. He claims there is grant money (not loans) available to build out wireless in the 4 adjacent counties to ours. He also claims there are no strings attached. I've been against the Obama money on a number of different levels but the

[WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past. With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Jayson Baker
Only drawback I've seen to them buying it is that if you have confidential configuration information in it, and the customer demands access to it since they bought it On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, RickG rgunder...@gmail.com wrote: I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained

Re: [WISPA] Government Loans and/or Grants

2009-11-08 Thread richard sterne
I would enquire further that wont cost you anything. Richard 2009/11/8 RickG rgunder...@gmail.com OK, so one of my subscribers happens to be close to the Governor. He claims there is grant money (not loans) available to build out wireless in the 4 adjacent counties to ours. He also claims

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Nathan Stooke
Hello, Do not sell it to them, just charge a higher setup fee. Thanks -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On Behalf Of RickG Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:24 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] CPE - who

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Michael Baird
You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go pick up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem insurance. Regards Michael Baird I've always provided the CPE to the end user

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Mike
I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list. They run speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will throttle you. Find those speedtest IPs and let em run. Perception is everything. Give them the perception they get that all the time. Mike At 12:25 PM

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread George Morris
Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction which isn't of much

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Mike
I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep CPE on the books. I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al. I maintain ownership. It's like joining a health club; you pay an initiation fee. When you quit, you don't get to take

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Jon Auer
We sell the CPE and lock the customer out as a condition of it being allowed on our network. There is some interesting precedents where people purchased cable modems and loaded their own config to get around speed limiting and were then prosecuted for theft of service. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
Nathan, That is what we do now, charge a higher installation fee but there are many drawbacks to that. Why do you say not to sell it to them? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Nathan Stooke nstooke...@wisperisp.comwrote: Hello, Do not sell it to them, just charge a higher setup fee.

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
Those are my exact thoughts. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go pick up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
What do you mean you dont keep CPE on the books? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep CPE on the books. I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al. I maintain

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont own the CPE? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go pick up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Gary Garrett
Just a side note, the water meters were installed by mandate of the DEQ (Government Agency) They fixed it so the Utilities could not borrow money or apply for grants if they were not metered. With the way our politics are going right now it may not be long before there is a Gov Agency making

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Ralph
Wisps is wisp-centric. There is no excuse not to support your organization. On Nov 8, 2009, at 4:08 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca wrote: Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA. We don't

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread George Morris
WISPA appears to be American WISP-centric Ralph. How many members are based outside the USA? What does WISPA do for non-American WISPs other than run a very good public mailing list that provides some decent discussion on the business in general terms? Please take a look at the WISPA web site

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Marco Coelho
Here's some quick numbers off my network: for the last 8 days 71% of customers downloaded less than 1 GByte of Data. The top 10% all exceeded 2 GB The top 5% all exceeded 4.4 GB The top 1% exceeded 10 GB Marco On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:08 PM, George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca wrote:

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Jonathan Schmidt
When browsing DSLREPORTS forums, one can see that it has become a game for some: Who can download the most in a month. With some high speed cable operator forums, you can see Terabytes++ beating terabytes+ as useless garbage is downloaded for the game. It's like leaving your water hose on to

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
We've always sold the gear to the customers. We don't have to pay property tax on it that way. They pay for the upgrades, we don't have to. (Though a change from us that causes 2 year old cpe to quit working is a case where we'll replace the gear at no charge. That or something close to

Re: [WISPA] Government Loans and/or Grants

2009-11-08 Thread Chuck Hogg
Maybe he is talking about how the Flemming Mason (Altius) guys that went BTOP/BIP on the four surrounding counties. I have looked into this many times, and haven't been able to find anything about it. 3 houses down is our State Rep, and I have asked him a few times as well, and he isn't aware of

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
We put THEIR password on all radios. They can move to a new company any time they want. It's a good sales thing for us actually. No contracts and they own the radio. The only reason for them to stay with us is that we're doing a good job. The customers out here eat that logic up! marlon

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Chuck Hogg
Biggest Con: Competitor can now come in and take control of your equipment and say Call them and tell them you are with us now. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com -Original Message- From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Chuck Hogg
Absolutely, because the customer is now not worth as much. Kind of the same thing when evaluating a network, a Canopy Network will draw much more $ than a Ubiquiti network if there is a sale. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband 502-722-9292 ch...@shelbybb.com http://www.shelbybb.com

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
What country are you in George? marlon - Original Message - From: George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Yeah, till you have to forklift entire towers at a time. Then what? No more install fees, but you could easily have to replace thousands of dollars in hardware within week or months. marlon - Original Message - From: Mike m...@aweiowa.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
We've tried to work with Canadian WISPs in the past. There may even be a mailing list for it. We've also helped write filings for industry Canada in the past. marlon - Original Message - From: George Morris ghmor...@candlelight.ca To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent:

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Mike
Radio equipment is on an accelerated depreciation schedule. I don't capitalize customer equipment; it's a cost for them to join. Instead, it's taxable for the state, and doesn't appear on my books as equipment. It is NOT an expense for the company. Unless you count my initial startup costs

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Mike
Oh heck no. My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash flow. Mike At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont own the CPE? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird m...@tc3net.com wrote: You don't have to pay

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Mike
Huh? I do capitalize tower equipment; just NOT CPE. Mike At 08:43 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote: Yeah, till you have to forklift entire towers at a time. Then what? No more install fees, but you could easily have to replace thousands of dollars in hardware within week or months. marlon -

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Chuck Hogg
Let me ask you this though... Would you rather 1) Buy $5,000 worth of Canopy equipment per month at 25 installs per month (new $1,250 in revenue at $50/mth) - Or - 2) Obtain a lease at $3,000 per month for 100 installs per month ($5,000 in revenue at $50/mth). Essentially, you are putting $2k

Re: [WISPA] Government Loans and/or Grants

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
I let you know what I find out. On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com wrote: Maybe he is talking about how the Flemming Mason (Altius) guys that went BTOP/BIP on the four surrounding counties. I have looked into this many times, and haven't been able to find anything

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
Marlon, I'm assuming that since you have metered billing, you dont have to worry about shaping their bandwidth at the CPE then? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Marlon K. Schafer o...@odessaoffice.comwrote: We put THEIR password on all radios. They can move to a new company any time they

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
IF you have competition of the WISP sort that is :) On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com wrote: Biggest Con: Competitor can now come in and take control of your equipment and say Call them and tell them you are with us now. Regards, Chuck Hogg Shelby Broadband

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
I agree with that on a Canopy system or other high dollar CPE WISP. But, what about a WISP using low dollar equipment. Does it matter then? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Chuck Hogg ch...@shelbybb.com wrote: Absolutely, because the customer is now not worth as much. Kind of the same thing

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
I'm not a CPA by any means but the moment CPE became available for less than a couple hundred dollars, it made total sense to expense it. If I understand correctly, for tax purposes, capitol equipment utilizing a depreciation schedule was really meant for high dollar items that last years. If I

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
Mike, Fortunately our balance sheet looks awesome too. Let me ask the question a different way: Do you think your company would be more attractive to a buyer if the CPE was owned by the company? On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Mike m...@aweiowa.com wrote: Oh heck no. My balance sheet looks

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Mike
I don't think so. I could come up with some sort of number for value for CPE I suppose, but a buyer would look at tower assets, all mine, radio equipment, all mine and cash flow. The pencil would dwell on the cash flow. For me, this is the best route. This IS my retirement, so I'm not

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread eje
My personal opinion is that it would be more attractive if I got the cpe as part of a purchase of a company no matter equipment. On another note I have never had anyone wanting to buy the CPE to get out of a 1 year contract. The only thing preventing people to signup is the 99 install fee is

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Mike
Interesting way to look at it Chuck. I have this simple aversion to acquiring debt. If the customer pays a capital fee up front to cover equipment costs, but never really owns it, I never have to pay lease charges. I own all of my towers so pay no rent there. I have not entertained leasing

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
Normally, I'd choose door #2. In addition, the lease payment is full tax deduction. I like many aspects of leasing. But, you better have a good business plan because if you lose subs or service pricing goes down you could be caught in an negative cash flow very quickly. Also, what if you need to

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

2009-11-08 Thread Travis Johnson
Wow... Verizon is screwing you... my family has 5 lines, 1200 minutes shared (national with carryover), unlimited text mesages and pics and I pay $165 per month total (including all taxes, surcharges, etc.). That's with ATT even. Travis Microserv Mike wrote: There are those (the 5%?) who

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread RickG
While our $200 install fee stops a few, it really hasnt been a big issue. I've seen several studies that indicated most would spend $200 for installation for broadband. On that note, the reason I'm inquiring about selling the customer the equipment is that would allow me to lower the install fee

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Travis Johnson
Yup... I've been saying this for almost 8 years... ;) The other thing to keep in mind is when you can buy 100 CPE at a time, the price is less... which actually offsets some of the interest rate of leasing. :) Travis Microserv Chuck Hogg wrote: Let me ask you this though... Would you

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
If you own all of the CPE the customer will expect the latest and greatest. When you upgrade the system you not only have to change out tower gear but you also have to change out the cpe. Oh yeah, you have to pay for both if you own the cpe. But you'll not get any install fees from people

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

2009-11-08 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
That's correct. marlon - Original Message - From: RickG rgunder...@gmail.com To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it? Marlon, I'm assuming that since you have metered billing, you dont have to worry

Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel

2009-11-08 Thread Mike Hammett
Too late because I've been enjoying South Florida, but I have been staying at the Crowne Plaza. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Travis Johnson t...@ida.net Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 5:36

Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel

2009-11-08 Thread Mike Hammett
I ended up going to Key West for dinner. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Jeremy Parr jeremyp...@gmail.com Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:11 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org