Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News

2005-10-07 Thread Frank Muto
Level 3 Issues Ultimatum
Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9

Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54

After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now
issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) explaining
their side of the story
(http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). Despite more than
75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement,
Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any business plans
to prepare for disconnection, notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice president
of Level 3 Communications.

The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to
negotiate, however.

Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free connection to
Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative arrangements,
we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 2005. The
effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's willingness
to maintain their side of the traffic exchange.


Frank Muto
Co-founder -  Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA
Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee
http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us



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Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News

2005-10-07 Thread Matt Liotta
I hope everyone takes this opportunity to become multi-homed if you are 
not already. In our case, we were already multi-homed, but all of our 
IPs were allocated by Cogent simply because it was the cheapest place to 
get them. During this mesh we learn that our IPs were in some cases 
being null routed. As such, we have started the process of ordering our 
own IP block from ARIN and have asked Cogent to assign our existing IPs 
to us.


-Matt

Frank Muto wrote:


Level 3 Issues Ultimatum
Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9

Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54

After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now
issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) explaining
their side of the story
(http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). Despite more than
75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement,
Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any business plans
to prepare for disconnection, notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice president
of Level 3 Communications.

The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to
negotiate, however.

Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free connection to
Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative arrangements,
we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 2005. The
effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's willingness
to maintain their side of the traffic exchange.


Frank Muto
Co-founder -  Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA
Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee
http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us



 



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Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News

2005-10-07 Thread Bo Hamilton
Here in ohio we got nailed by this.  Verizon, SBC, Time Warner, just to 
name a few.  I think Im going to get a backup DSL through Sprint since 
they were not affected by this here in ohio. 


Bo

Matt Liotta wrote:

I hope everyone takes this opportunity to become multi-homed if you 
are not already. In our case, we were already multi-homed, but all of 
our IPs were allocated by Cogent simply because it was the cheapest 
place to get them. During this mesh we learn that our IPs were in some 
cases being null routed. As such, we have started the process of 
ordering our own IP block from ARIN and have asked Cogent to assign 
our existing IPs to us.


-Matt

Frank Muto wrote:


Level 3 Issues Ultimatum
Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9

Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54

After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now
issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) 
explaining

their side of the story
(http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). Despite more 
than

75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement,
Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any business 
plans
to prepare for disconnection, notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice 
president

of Level 3 Communications.

The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to
negotiate, however.

Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free connection to
Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative 
arrangements,
we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 
2005. The
effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's 
willingness

to maintain their side of the traffic exchange.


Frank Muto
Co-founder -  Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA
Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee
http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us



 





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Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News

2005-10-07 Thread Matt Liotta
With all that being said, Cogent's routes pretty much suck in comparison 
to the other tier-1s. Being multi-homed certainly gives you a better 
performing network. Additionally, you might look into peering at an 
exchange. We are connected to the Atlanta Internet Exchange allowing us 
to peer with many companies for free.


-Matt

Tom DeReggi wrote:

Only thing... A big company has a lot more leverage to control fair 
play with IPs than you as a small provider.  When you own your own 
block, its real easy for a competitor (large monopoly) to block your 
IPs without hesitation.  Much more thought goes into wether they will 
block IPs by a large power like Cogent.  So there are disadvantages as 
well as benefits of owning your own IPs.  The same applies to peering. 
Do you think any of us small ISPs will have any leverage at all to 
negotiate fair peering?  Large companies like Cogent have the leverage 
to be able to negotiate peers with other large palyers like Level3.  
Level3 didn't restore connections just to be a nice guy to the end 
users. They did it because they were loosing business fast as well.  
Because Cogent was large enough to have that impact. I'm now going to 
be doing BGP and Multi-homing because this insodent, and for a PR 
perspective, I look more responsive to my customer because of it. But 
the reality is, I'm not sure it puts us up with that much of an 
advantage.  The day, a LEVEL3 wants to block your traffic, you won't 
have the leverage to get them to re-open it.  What cogent did was to 
get us better rates. Cogent pays, indirectly we pay.  I support 
Cogents stance. I do not support however that they did not give us 
notice to prepair for the situation.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 8:08 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News


I hope everyone takes this opportunity to become multi-homed if you 
are not already. In our case, we were already multi-homed, but all of 
our IPs were allocated by Cogent simply because it was the cheapest 
place to get them. During this mesh we learn that our IPs were in 
some cases being null routed. As such, we have started the process of 
ordering our own IP block from ARIN and have asked Cogent to assign 
our existing IPs to us.


-Matt

Frank Muto wrote:


Level 3 Issues Ultimatum
Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9

Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54

After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now
issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) 
explaining

their side of the story
(http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). Despite 
more than

75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement,
Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any 
business plans
to prepare for disconnection, notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice 
president

of Level 3 Communications.

The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to
negotiate, however.

Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free 
connection to
Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative 
arrangements,
we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 
2005. The
effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's 
willingness

to maintain their side of the traffic exchange.


Frank Muto
Co-founder -  Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA
Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee
http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us






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Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News

2005-10-07 Thread Tom DeReggi
Level3 did it to themselves, Cogent customers didn't have the option to hear 
Level 3's side of the story because LEVEL3 blocked us access from reading 
their side, like idiots. They instead could have did port redirection to 
pass our traffic to their web site our something.  Regardless of what anyone 
says, LEVEL3 could have handled this situation by simply cutting off the 
pipe that was used for peering, but that is not what they did.  They weren't 
accepting route advertisements for Cogent IPs. We could send data through 
diverse paths (other peers / ISPs), the packets just never came back. 
LEVEL3 didn't block peering pipes, they blocked routing info, in other words 
Cogent users.  Cogent wasn't technically capable to re-route our data becaue 
LEvel3's actions. People leave out those little details of relavence, 
because they can't prove it legally. But it is what happened.  In my mind 
Level3 stinks bad in this battle, because how they fought dirty.  It had 
nothing to do with who was actually at faught regarding whether Cogent 
should have free peering or not.


However, Level3 atleast did the honorable thing and will be restoring 
service long enough for us to take action to add peers. But in my mind they 
should have made that decission two days ago, before all the damage was done 
to innocent providers and businesses such as MINE.  We can sit behind the 
scenes as individuals educated on the matter, and point fingers at LEvel3 or 
Cogent. But in my customer's eyes the ONLY one responsible is ME. I got a 
black eye on this, that will stay for some time, and I blaim Level3.  There 
actions were heartless on who it would effect.  In my mind, Level3 was 
inches away from serious law sutes.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

- Original Message - 
From: Frank Muto [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 7:53 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3 Current News



Level 3 Issues Ultimatum
Restores connectivity to Cogent until Nov 9

Posted 2005-10-07 19:15:54

After restoring connectivity to Cogent this afternoon, Level 3 has now
issued a press release (http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/68244) 
explaining

their side of the story
(http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/051007/laf057.html?.v=17). Despite more than
75 days of advance written notice of the termination of our agreement,
Cogent apparently failed to notify its customers or make any business 
plans
to prepare for disconnection, notes Sureel Choksi, executive vice 
president

of Level 3 Communications.

The restored peering arrangement won't last if Cogent isn't willing to
negotiate, however.

Level 3 has, effective immediately, re-established a free connection to
Cogent. In order to allow Internet users to make alternative arrangements,
we will maintain this connection until 6:00 a.m. ET, November 9, 2005. The
effectiveness of this arrangement of course depends on Cogent's 
willingness

to maintain their side of the traffic exchange.


Frank Muto
Co-founder -  Washington Bureau for ISP Advocacy - WBIA
Telecom Summit Ad Hoc Committee
http://gigabytemarch.blog.com/ www.wbia.us



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[WISPA] Cogent - Level3

2005-10-06 Thread Tom DeReggi




For those that are not aware, Level-3 vilolated its inplace agreements, and 
blocked all peering connections from Cogent communications yesterday (October 
5th), and rumor has it that they are also nowblocking all Cogent assigned 
IP ranges, so that routing diverse paths won't be effective. Not much I 
can say aboutpeering disputes, but blocking IPs without cause (meaning 
violation of AUP)is crossing the line, and clearly anti-competitive and a 
law sute soon to happen. 

Level3 VOIP provider just lost our business over this one. Can't risk 
using a provider that demonstrates such practices. 


If using Level3 for servers, call to complain, because otherwise you are 
going to have lots of unsatisfied customers that can't get to the servers that 
reside on the Cogent network. Level 3 is doing the blocking.

For those of you using Level3 and looking to become multi-homed, nows the 
chance to save.Cogent is offering FREE one years transit service at 
the samecapacity as the level 3 connection. 

Tom DeReggiRapidDSL  Wireless, IncIntAirNet- Fixed Wireless 
Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3

2005-10-06 Thread George

Hi Tom
Do you have a url for this news?
Thanks
George


Tom DeReggi wrote:
For those that are not aware, Level-3 vilolated its inplace agreements, 
and blocked all peering connections from Cogent communications yesterday 
(October 5th), and rumor has it that they are also now blocking all 
Cogent assigned IP ranges, so that routing diverse paths won't be 
effective.  Not much I can say about peering disputes, but blocking IPs 
without cause (meaning violation of AUP) is crossing the line, and 
clearly anti-competitive and a law sute soon to happen. 
 
Level3 VOIP provider just lost our business over this one.  Can't risk 
using a provider that demonstrates such practices.
 
If using Level3 for servers, call to complain, because otherwise you are 
going to have lots of unsatisfied customers that can't get to the 
servers that reside on the Cogent network.  Level 3 is doing the blocking.
 
For those of you using Level3 and looking to become multi-homed, nows 
the chance to save.  Cogent is offering FREE one years transit service 
at the same capacity as the level 3 connection.  
 
Tom DeReggi

RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 



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Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3

2005-10-06 Thread Tony Weasler
On 10/6/2005 1:03 PM, Tom DeReggi created:
 To set the record straight, no peering agreements were violated
 between L3 and Cogent.
 
 I heard otherwise, however I can't prove that.

Cogent on their own web site said that agreements were not violated:

Level 3 terminated its peering with Cogent without cause (as
permitted under its peering agreement with Cogent) even though both
Cogent and Level 3 remained in full compliance with the previously
existing interconnection agreement.
http://status.cogentco.com/

 There is also no confirmed evidence that L3 is
 blocking Cogent traffic through Cogent's Verio transit (which Cogent
 pays $$ for.)
 
 There was evidence. I wish I saved my traceroutes yesterday.
 To make more clear, Cogent is our backbone.
 When going to www.logmein.com, the last successfull hop was a peer
 labelled similar to verio.cogentco.com, meaning we crossed over to
 Verio's side. (the actual name was more meaningful). Now today, the
 traffic destined for that site stops cold at the first hop from our
 network, meaning it does not get routes from Level3 on where to send the
 data, once we enter Cogent's network.  Unless you are referring that
 Cogent is blocking any advertised route info from Level3, which is
 highly unlikely.  If Level3 was allowing our IPs to go through Verio's
 link, we would receive routes to route our packets in that direction
 across Cogent's network, and packets would travel further into Cogent's
 network (such as to the Verio link). If Cogent blocked traffic to Verio,
 it would most likely block it at the peer, not at the entry to Cogent's
 network from us as their client.

This isn't evidence of blocking on L3's side.  It could be because
Cogent only purchases transit to certain prefixes and L3 isn't one of
them (and Verio is filtering the announcements.)  It could be because
Cogent internally uses traffic engineering to prevent L3 traffic from
reaching them over their Verio transit circuits.  One of the two
scenarios is likely given their peering arrangement with L3.  I didn't
see any table entries on the L3 San Diego looking glass for AS174.  I
saw only one route on their Denver looking glass through AS7018.  Does
that mean that L3 is filtering or that Cogent's announcements aren't
reaching L3 for other reasons?  The former is probably correct, but
that's not something that can be easily demonstrated.  I couldn't find
a looking glass in AS174 which would allow me to see Cogent's tables
from the inside.  Cogent does appear to be announcing their Verio link
to other peers, however.  I see direct announcements for AS174 and an
announcement for Sprint-Verio-Cogent, but not an ATT-Cogent path.

I think that both carriers are at fault.  Both companies should have
resolved this before it came to reducing connectivity for their
customers. They both should be held accountable by their customers.  I
replied to your original post, Tom, because Cogent made a public
statement which directly contradicted yours and I thought that people
on the list should have a more complete story [1].  You could be
entirely correct about there having been a contract violation.  I am
confident that a considerable amount of money will be wasted trying to
determine that.

I fear that because of the the popularity of this issue it will reach
the ears of the less clueful xEOs at carrier organizations and that
the current SFI structure could be at risk of being 're-evaluated' in
favor of paid interconnection.  Most of the scenarios that I can think
of involving compensation for interconnection lead to higher wholesale
prices of bandwidth and additional overall system complexity.


 It appears that Cogent is unwilling to use this route
 because it would force them to pay (Verio) per Mb/s for the
 information sent to/from L3's network.  The de-peering was consistent
 with the peering agreement between L3 and Cogent according to
 http://status.cogentco.com/
 
 It stated that, but it is not in actuallity.

So why would Cogent lie about something that makes them look bad on
their own public web site?  Many SFI contracts allow for termination
without cause given enough notice and it is reasonable to assume that
this one included that type of language.  According to conjecture on
NANOG, Cogent was given notice 40 days before the disconnect.  In the
absence of more reliable information I don't have any reason to assume
otherwise.

 Current NANOG consensus (whatever that's worth) is that both companies
 are equally responsible for correcting their reachability issues, but
 L3 initiated the de-peering process.
 
 Agreed.  UNLESS Level3 is actually blocking IPs that were assigned via
 Cogent apposed to just blocking routes or connections. Unfortuneately I
 am not in a possition to prove wether our IPs are blocked because we are
 still single homed with Cogent.  Cogent has so many peers that could
 transmit our data via alternate paths, and the amount of traffic on our
 network going to level 3 is so little, 

Re: [WISPA] Cogent - Level3

2005-10-06 Thread George
Cogent recently bought or took over some of Verrio's business, maybe 
this has to do with that?

George


Tony Weasler wrote:

To set the record straight, no peering agreements were violated
between L3 and Cogent.  There is also no confirmed evidence that L3 is
blocking Cogent traffic through Cogent's Verio transit (which Cogent
pays $$ for.)  It appears that Cogent is unwilling to use this route
because it would force them to pay (Verio) per Mb/s for the
information sent to/from L3's network.  The de-peering was consistent
with the peering agreement between L3 and Cogent according to
http://status.cogentco.com/

Current NANOG consensus (whatever that's worth) is that both companies
are equally responsible for correcting their reachability issues, but
L3 initiated the de-peering process.

Peering (or Settlement Free Interconnection, SFI) is an extremely
complicated subject often involving millions of dollars to the
carriers involved.  The current NANOG thread on the subject contains a
great deal of information (and mis-information) and is a good read for
those interested in the subject.  I tend to weight the arguments made
by Patrick, Leo, Randy, Vijay, and Richard higher than most others.

Best,
Tony

On 10/6/2005 11:16 AM, Tom DeReggi created:


For those that are not aware, Level-3 vilolated its inplace agreements,
and blocked all peering connections from Cogent communications yesterday
(October 5th), and rumor has it that they are also now blocking all
Cogent assigned IP ranges, so that routing diverse paths won't be
effective.  Not much I can say about peering disputes, but blocking IPs
without cause (meaning violation of AUP) is crossing the line, and
clearly anti-competitive and a law sute soon to happen. 


Level3 VOIP provider just lost our business over this one.  Can't risk
using a provider that demonstrates such practices.

If using Level3 for servers, call to complain, because otherwise you are
going to have lots of unsatisfied customers that can't get to the
servers that reside on the Cogent network.  Level 3 is doing the blocking.

For those of you using Level3 and looking to become multi-homed, nows
the chance to save.  Cogent is offering FREE one years transit service
at the same capacity as the level 3 connection.  


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband





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