RE: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-26 Thread Rick Harnish
We will be filing ours again also.  

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482
Founding Member of WISPA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 11:11 PM
To: Joe Laura; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

I'm not particularly worried about my info getting into anyone's hands. 
I've got nothing to hide.  We'll fill it out again.  I'm far more worried 
about the fines than competitors learning anything useful from the 477.

Someone else brought up a great point.  You can't market your company and 
stay hidden.  If anyone's looking at your area for anything at all they'll 
find out all about you anyway.  Unless you don't want customers to ever hear

about you :-).

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Joe Laura [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477


 Ya, I just got a notice as well. I wonder what the response rate will be
 this time around?
 Superior Wireless
 New Orleans,La.
 www.superior1.com
 - Original Message -
 From: Cliff Leboeuf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:02 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Form FCC477


 Hehe!!!

 I just received my reminder that my new 'confidential' FCC 477 form will
 be due shortly.

 Cliff LeBoeuf
 www.cssla.com
 www.triparish.net
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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-26 Thread Peter R.
Actually, once they post on this public, archived listserv that they 
will not file, it becomes a permanent record and their business becomes 
everyone's business.


You want WISPA to be taken seriously? You don't post on the list and say 
I ain't filing.

It reflects poorly.
You don't want to file - don't file, but shut up about it.

- Peter


George Rogato wrote:



I am not saying to anyone else tyhat they should or shouldn't, thats 
your business not mine.



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RE: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-26 Thread Cliff Leboeuf
I have filled all previous requests, and plan on filing this one too.

I was just 'poking fun' at the CONFIDENTIAL issue at hand...

Cliff LeBoeuf
www.cssla.com
www.triparish.net


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter R.
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 8:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

Actually, once they post on this public, archived listserv that they 
will not file, it becomes a permanent record and their business becomes 
everyone's business.

You want WISPA to be taken seriously? You don't post on the list and say

I ain't filing.
It reflects poorly.
You don't want to file - don't file, but shut up about it.

- Peter


George Rogato wrote:


 I am not saying to anyone else tyhat they should or shouldn't, thats 
 your business not mine.

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RE: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-26 Thread Forbes Mercy
Sort of odd that last time I filed and I received no such notice to renew. 

Forbes

 

I'm not particularly worried about my info getting into anyone's hands. 
I've got nothing to hide.  We'll fill it out again.  I'm far more worried 
about the fines than competitors learning anything useful from the 477. 

Someone else brought up a great point.  You can't market your company and 
stay hidden.  If anyone's looking at your area for anything at all they'll 
find out all about you anyway.  Unless you don't want customers to ever hear 
about you :-). 

laters, 
marlon 

- Original Message - 
From: Joe Laura [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org 
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:38 PM 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477 


 Ya, I just got a notice as well. I wonder what the response rate will be 
 this time around? 
 Superior Wireless 
 New Orleans,La. 
 www.superior1.com 
 - Original Message - 
 From: Cliff Leboeuf [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org 
 Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:02 PM 
 Subject: [WISPA] Form FCC477 
 
 
 Hehe!!! 
 
 I just received my reminder that my new 'confidential' FCC 477 form will 
 be due shortly. 
 
 Cliff LeBoeuf 
 www.cssla.com 
 www.triparish.net 
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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

Unlike me, you probably did yours correctly and on time!  hehehehe

- Original Message - 
From: Forbes Mercy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 7:21 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form FCC477



Sort of odd that last time I filed and I received no such notice to renew.

Forbes



I'm not particularly worried about my info getting into anyone's hands.
I've got nothing to hide.  We'll fill it out again.  I'm far more worried
about the fines than competitors learning anything useful from the 477.

Someone else brought up a great point.  You can't market your company and
stay hidden.  If anyone's looking at your area for anything at all they'll
find out all about you anyway.  Unless you don't want customers to ever 
hear

about you :-).

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Joe Laura [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477



Ya, I just got a notice as well. I wonder what the response rate will be
this time around?
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message - 
From: Cliff Leboeuf [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:02 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Form FCC477


Hehe!!!

I just received my reminder that my new 'confidential' FCC 477 form will
be due shortly.

Cliff LeBoeuf
www.cssla.com
www.triparish.net
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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-26 Thread Tom DeReggi

Peter,

You are right. (At this time people should not state publically on this list 
if they aren't going to file)


Also, I previously spoke spontaniously without thinking the issue through, 
without any concept of time and due dates.
I wasn't putting two and two togeather to realize the filing deadline was 
due more or less now, before court cases would even be battled.  I will be 
filing, because its my obligation to, and no proven reason not to. I 
honestly feel that.  Actually, when I think about it, we should be 
applauding the FCC, for taking a stand to keep information confidential.


With that said, I do think it is appropriate to discuss how the Freedom of 
Information Act will effect the FCC to be able to maintain confidentiality. 
I think it also appropriate to discuss the pros and cons of filing, based on 
how that court battle ends up.  Right now, the FCC has held firm, and we 
should support them back, for supporting us. But this is a serious issue. 
If the information that I file, gets given to a company Like Verizon, it 
could give them the advantage to put me out of business in a couple months, 
if they wanted to.   If you do not think the Telcos are watching the WISP 
industry closely, you are fooling yourself.   As a business owner, I have 
the right to protect the success of my business, and I have the right to 
protect my confidential information. I have the right to withhold 
information, take my stand publically, and legal fight to protect my 
company's interest if there is reason to do so.  If my detailed information 
from the Report was disclosed, and it led to a competive disadvantage in my 
markets, I'd sue the FCC.  I'd argue that it would be a Wireless Trade 
Association's responsibilities (such as WISPAs) to lead the fight to protect 
WISP's confidential information.  WISPA needs to send out a consolidated 
united message, that if our information is disclosed, that we will feel 
betrayed and will take legal action as an industry to protect our interests, 
or not cooperate. That is being taken seriously, showing the power we have 
in numbers.


What you will find is that initially the FCC may hold firm and not disclose 
information now. But when it becomes to much of a hassle and to costly to 
defend, they might give in. What would prevent them from giving in, is 
knowing that they would be opening a whole nother can of worms, headached, 
and costs with the WISPs that trusted the FCC.


Again, I am way ahead of myself on this post. I'm just talking What Ifs. 
To date there is no evidence that the FCC will disclose information, and 
they currently have refused to disclose it.


I think we should all file, but when we file, we should each include a 
letter with our filing, stating that information is confidential 
information, that we are aware of the current case requesting information to 
be disclosed, and expressing our concerns and the importance that our 
information stays confidential.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477


Actually, once they post on this public, archived listserv that they will 
not file, it becomes a permanent record and their business becomes 
everyone's business.


You want WISPA to be taken seriously? You don't post on the list and say I 
ain't filing.

It reflects poorly.
You don't want to file - don't file, but shut up about it.

- Peter


George Rogato wrote:



I am not saying to anyone else tyhat they should or shouldn't, thats your 
business not mine.



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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-26 Thread Tom DeReggi
Don't misinterpret this as suggesting not to file, as I believe one should 
file for various reasons. But I disagree with statements and the reason to 
file are different.


First, At a FCC/WISP meeting, I remember a very enlightening presentation 
from Patrick Leary.  The key statement was Where Wireless goes, DSL 
follows.  Its more true than we can imagine.  Only thing is, In upcomming 
years its going to be, Where Small Wireless providers go, FIOS and/or ILEC 
WIMAX deployments follow.  Nobody appreciate an unserved market, until you 
see your competition wanting it and profiting from it.  History has proved, 
you kill your competition before they grow strong enough to be a threat. 
They won;t take the small WISP approach to go where no one has served yet. 
They will take the Mcdonalds/Wendy's approach of using our data to find the 
most profitable areas to serve, where they can take the business from WISPs. 
Executive's Ego's are involved, and they don't like to see others outshining 
them  Provide Form477 info publically, so competitors can see it in detail, 
It will be damaging.
(Unless of course the informatioin disclosed shows no real threat in terms 
of volume)


The reason Form 477 should be filed is that its not meant for public eyes. 
Its meant for the FCC, so they can make intelligent decission with that 
inforamtion, to foster growth in the industry for consumers benefit. The FCC 
already knows WISPs are a major player now in theory. But they need proof to 
backup opinion.  Form 477 helps provide that.


There is not a viable compromise on this issue. We need the FCC to have this 
information, and we need the info to be held in confidence.  The Law and 
Fines are irrelevent as the goal is NOT to not file. The goal is to support 
confidentiality.


Just my 2 cents.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Forbes Mercy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:21 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form FCC477



Sort of odd that last time I filed and I received no such notice to renew.

Forbes



I'm not particularly worried about my info getting into anyone's hands.
I've got nothing to hide.  We'll fill it out again.  I'm far more worried
about the fines than competitors learning anything useful from the 477.

Someone else brought up a great point.  You can't market your company and
stay hidden.  If anyone's looking at your area for anything at all they'll
find out all about you anyway.  Unless you don't want customers to ever 
hear

about you :-).

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Joe Laura [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477



Ya, I just got a notice as well. I wonder what the response rate will be
this time around?
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message - 
From: Cliff Leboeuf [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:02 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Form FCC477


Hehe!!!

I just received my reminder that my new 'confidential' FCC 477 form will
be due shortly.

Cliff LeBoeuf
www.cssla.com
www.triparish.net
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[WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI

2007-01-26 Thread Forbes Mercy
So I was a bit curious as to who this Center for Public Integrity (CPI) was and 
who funded them and what their intent was.   I looked them up and gave the guy 
a call that is in charge of the lawsuit for CPI against the FCC.  We had a long 
chat and he referred me to their website and what they are trying to do:  
http://www.publicintegrity.org/telecom/

Basically, according to the director of this project, they are trying to mirror 
the other media provider information by providing a list by zip code of who 
gives service in an area.   We discussed how inaccurate the list is for say 
cable where my town supposedly has five cable providers when in fact we have 
two and only one by the zip code I searched.   I then asked if that is all the 
information they want from the FCC Form 477.  He said Yes all we really want 
is the provider name.  So I asked why his FOI and lawsuit states ALL data 
provided in the Form 477.  I explained that our competition already has enough 
of an advantage but if they had their hands on the number of customers, their 
speeds, etc. by zip code they would know where to spend money to go after us 
specifically.  Essentially telling our competition everything about us without 
even the tease of an offer to by protected by an non disclosure agreement 
(NDA).  I think even Telco and Cable agree with us on this potential which is 
why they have joined with the FCC opposing the full disclosure request.

His answer (CPI) was that they don't expect to get the whole database and in 
the end will likely compromise for just the names.   I told him I have no 
problem giving my name or having the FCC do that but why ask for everything, I 
said, it demonstrates intent to disclose so much more that could damage us.   
He said he knows that but it was their decision to start there and work back to 
what they want.  I explained how when you negotiate you don't ask for, let's 
say buying a car, for $2000 off when you only want $500 off.   By doing so the 
salesman, in this case the FCC, has no motivation to work with you because you 
made an unreasonable request.  Why not just file the Freedom of Information 
(FOI) request for just the provider names?  He said, it's nice to hear a grass 
roots provider view but we felt this was the best bargaining method.  He made 
clear they are not funded by a Corporation and are certainly not trying to help 
anyone but consumers.  

I see one of two motivations for this: 1) They are being pushed by their 
attorney to go too far which sounds about right for a lawyer who knows he/they 
will get a lot more money for drawing out negotiations when he could just make 
a reasonable request or, 2) CPI feels they will get more donors and media 
attention by being able to make the claim they are trying to protect the public 
in a big media splash saying we just want their names while really asking for 
the whole cake.   They are a DC organization so you can never really trust 
their intent.

Forbes Mercy 
President - Washington Broadband, Inc.
www.wabroadband.com


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RE: [WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI

2007-01-26 Thread Brian Webster
Forbes,
Did you happen to ask them if they ever sold any of their data to
commercial organizations? That might also indicate their intent and why they
are pushing so hard...just a thought.



Thank You,
Brian Webster

-Original Message-
From: Forbes Mercy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 1:15 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI


So I was a bit curious as to who this Center for Public Integrity (CPI) was
and who funded them and what their intent was.   I looked them up and gave
the guy a call that is in charge of the lawsuit for CPI against the FCC.  We
had a long chat and he referred me to their website and what they are trying
to do:  http://www.publicintegrity.org/telecom/

Basically, according to the director of this project, they are trying to
mirror the other media provider information by providing a list by zip code
of who gives service in an area.   We discussed how inaccurate the list is
for say cable where my town supposedly has five cable providers when in fact
we have two and only one by the zip code I searched.   I then asked if that
is all the information they want from the FCC Form 477.  He said Yes all we
really want is the provider name.  So I asked why his FOI and lawsuit
states ALL data provided in the Form 477.  I explained that our competition
already has enough of an advantage but if they had their hands on the number
of customers, their speeds, etc. by zip code they would know where to spend
money to go after us specifically.  Essentially telling our competition
everything about us without even the tease of an offer to by protected by an
non disclosure agreement (NDA).  I think even Telco and Cable agree with us
on this potential which is why they have joined with the FCC opposing the
full disclosure request.

His answer (CPI) was that they don't expect to get the whole database and in
the end will likely compromise for just the names.   I told him I have no
problem giving my name or having the FCC do that but why ask for everything,
I said, it demonstrates intent to disclose so much more that could damage
us.   He said he knows that but it was their decision to start there and
work back to what they want.  I explained how when you negotiate you don't
ask for, let's say buying a car, for $2000 off when you only want $500 off.
By doing so the salesman, in this case the FCC, has no motivation to work
with you because you made an unreasonable request.  Why not just file the
Freedom of Information (FOI) request for just the provider names?  He said,
it's nice to hear a grass roots provider view but we felt this was the best
bargaining method.  He made clear they are not funded by a Corporation and
are certainly not trying to help anyone but consumers.

I see one of two motivations for this: 1) They are being pushed by their
attorney to go too far which sounds about right for a lawyer who knows
he/they will get a lot more money for drawing out negotiations when he could
just make a reasonable request or, 2) CPI feels they will get more donors
and media attention by being able to make the claim they are trying to
protect the public in a big media splash saying we just want their names
while really asking for the whole cake.   They are a DC organization so you
can never really trust their intent.

Forbes Mercy
President - Washington Broadband, Inc.
www.wabroadband.com


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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI

2007-01-26 Thread Sam Tetherow

disclaimerIANAL/disclaimer

The problem is, that if they win the suite, I think it would be for all 
the information.  Regardless of what their intent it, once that case is 
made, the information is there for anyone.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

Forbes Mercy wrote:

So I was a bit curious as to who this Center for Public Integrity (CPI) was and 
who funded them and what their intent was.   I looked them up and gave the guy 
a call that is in charge of the lawsuit for CPI against the FCC.  We had a long 
chat and he referred me to their website and what they are trying to do:  
http://www.publicintegrity.org/telecom/

Basically, according to the director of this project, they are trying to mirror the other 
media provider information by providing a list by zip code of who gives service in an 
area.   We discussed how inaccurate the list is for say cable where my town supposedly 
has five cable providers when in fact we have two and only one by the zip code I 
searched.   I then asked if that is all the information they want from the FCC Form 477.  
He said Yes all we really want is the provider name.  So I asked why his FOI 
and lawsuit states ALL data provided in the Form 477.  I explained that our competition 
already has enough of an advantage but if they had their hands on the number of 
customers, their speeds, etc. by zip code they would know where to spend money to go 
after us specifically.  Essentially telling our competition everything about us without 
even the tease of an offer to by protected by an non disclosure agreement (NDA).  I think 
even Telco and Cable agree with us on this potential which is why they have joined with 
the FCC opposing the full disclosure request.

His answer (CPI) was that they don't expect to get the whole database and in the end will likely compromise for just the names.   I told him I have no problem giving my name or having the FCC do that but why ask for everything, I said, it demonstrates intent to disclose so much more that could damage us.   He said he knows that but it was their decision to start there and work back to what they want.  I explained how when you negotiate you don't ask for, let's say buying a car, for $2000 off when you only want $500 off.   By doing so the salesman, in this case the FCC, has no motivation to work with you because you made an unreasonable request.  Why not just file the Freedom of Information (FOI) request for just the provider names?  He said, it's nice to hear a grass roots provider view but we felt this was the best bargaining method.  He made clear they are not funded by a Corporation and are certainly not trying to help anyone but consumers.  


I see one of two motivations for this: 1) They are being pushed by their 
attorney to go too far which sounds about right for a lawyer who knows he/they 
will get a lot more money for drawing out negotiations when he could just make 
a reasonable request or, 2) CPI feels they will get more donors and media 
attention by being able to make the claim they are trying to protect the public 
in a big media splash saying we just want their names while really asking for 
the whole cake.   They are a DC organization so you can never really trust 
their intent.

Forbes Mercy 
President - Washington Broadband, Inc.

www.wabroadband.com


  



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RE: [WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI

2007-01-26 Thread Patrick Leary
Excellent job. Forbes, you are to be commended for going directly to the
source to register your opinion personally and to get the skinny. Beats
the heck out of a continued speculative thread with much rumor, angst,
and anger, but no action. Taking personal initiative like that is how
real change begins.

Thank you for your effort.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Forbes Mercy
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI

So I was a bit curious as to who this Center for Public Integrity (CPI)
was and who funded them and what their intent was.   I looked them up
and gave the guy a call that is in charge of the lawsuit for CPI against
the FCC.  We had a long chat and he referred me to their website and
what they are trying to do:  http://www.publicintegrity.org/telecom/

Basically, according to the director of this project, they are trying to
mirror the other media provider information by providing a list by zip
code of who gives service in an area.   We discussed how inaccurate the
list is for say cable where my town supposedly has five cable providers
when in fact we have two and only one by the zip code I searched.   I
then asked if that is all the information they want from the FCC Form
477.  He said Yes all we really want is the provider name.  So I asked
why his FOI and lawsuit states ALL data provided in the Form 477.  I
explained that our competition already has enough of an advantage but if
they had their hands on the number of customers, their speeds, etc. by
zip code they would know where to spend money to go after us
specifically.  Essentially telling our competition everything about us
without even the tease of an offer to by protected by an non disclosure
agreement (NDA).  I think even Telco and Cable agree with us on this
potential which is why they have joined with the FCC opposing the full
disclosure request.

His answer (CPI) was that they don't expect to get the whole database
and in the end will likely compromise for just the names.   I told him I
have no problem giving my name or having the FCC do that but why ask for
everything, I said, it demonstrates intent to disclose so much more
that could damage us.   He said he knows that but it was their decision
to start there and work back to what they want.  I explained how when
you negotiate you don't ask for, let's say buying a car, for $2000 off
when you only want $500 off.   By doing so the salesman, in this case
the FCC, has no motivation to work with you because you made an
unreasonable request.  Why not just file the Freedom of Information
(FOI) request for just the provider names?  He said, it's nice to hear
a grass roots provider view but we felt this was the best bargaining
method.  He made clear they are not funded by a Corporation and are
certainly not trying to help anyone but consumers.  

I see one of two motivations for this: 1) They are being pushed by their
attorney to go too far which sounds about right for a lawyer who knows
he/they will get a lot more money for drawing out negotiations when he
could just make a reasonable request or, 2) CPI feels they will get more
donors and media attention by being able to make the claim they are
trying to protect the public in a big media splash saying we just want
their names while really asking for the whole cake.   They are a DC
organization so you can never really trust their intent.

Forbes Mercy 
President - Washington Broadband, Inc.
www.wabroadband.com


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viruses

Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-26 Thread wispa
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 12:23:19 -0500, Tom DeReggi wrote
 Don't misinterpret this as suggesting not to file, as I believe one 
 should file for various reasons. But I disagree with statements and 
 the reason to file are different.
 
 First, At a FCC/WISP meeting, I remember a very enlightening 
 presentation from Patrick Leary.  The key statement was Where 
 Wireless goes, DSL follows.  Its more true than we can imagine. 
  Only thing is, In upcomming years its going to be, Where Small 
 Wireless providers go, FIOS and/or ILEC WIMAX deployments follow. 
  Nobody appreciate an unserved market, until you see your 
 competition wanting it and profiting from it.  History has proved, 
 you kill your competition before they grow strong enough to be a 
 threat. They won;t take the small WISP approach to go where no one 
 has served yet. They will take the Mcdonalds/Wendy's approach of 
 using our data to find the most profitable areas to serve, where 
 they can take the business from WISPs. Executive's Ego's are 
 involved, and they don't like to see others outshining them  Provide 
 Form477 info publically, so competitors can see it in detail, It 
 will be damaging.
 (Unless of course the informatioin disclosed shows no real threat in 
 terms of volume)

You know, I see the same pattern too.   In 1999 here, there was no telco DSL 
in 90% (terms of population) of the area I now am covering or soon to 
cover.   Between 1999 and now, a wireless provider in the area applied for 
the low interest loans (and was approved) for a large amount of it.  
Amazingly enough, DSL sprouted up all over the place where Qwest had said we 
have no plans to put it in, in all those places where public money had 
become available and was requested by said WISP (not me).  

City A has all of 1300 people, and city W has 700 people and found themselves 
with DSLAMS installed and stringing new cables all over town.   The project 
was huge and kept the telco guys here for months, in a town of a few hundred 
people.  Just up the road is a town of 6000 people, but no public funds were 
applied for for this town.   NO DSL in that town.  They're all served by 
Qwest.   Still no plans to put in DSL in said town of 6000 people, either.   
Heck, they've got remote DSLAM's to serve 20 and 50 customers spread across 
the countryside out in the boonies... In the area were loans were approved to 
provide broadband

 
 The reason Form 477 should be filed is that its not meant for public 
 eyes. Its meant for the FCC, so they can make intelligent decission 
 with that inforamtion, to foster growth in the industry for 
 consumers benefit. The FCC already knows WISPs are a major player 
 now in theory. But they need proof to backup opinion.  Form 477 
 helps provide that.

But if we look at this differently, the data becomes a snapshot of growth.  
Ready-made demographics and marketing research, all done by each of us, 
spending big bucks to do real life marketing, which, if it ends up being 
publicly available, provides a road map to every Cableco and ILEC and CLEC to 
show them right where they need to go.  They're too big to see life on the 
ground, but that information, once accumulated for a 2 or more years becomes 
a great roadmap that analyists can use with incredible efficiency to tell 
them exactly where we've cultivated markets and for them to move in on...

 
 There is not a viable compromise on this issue. We need the FCC to 
 have this information, and we need the info to be held in 
 confidence.  The Law and Fines are irrelevent as the goal is NOT to 
 not file. The goal is to support confidentiality.

RIght... the question is:  Why should having a dumb pipe delivering bits to 
customers make me required to risk my information in the first place?  

It may seem against our interests, but I really think we should be on the 
offensive against CPI on this in terms of It's not really a federal case...  
The nation's future does not revolve around you or anyone else knowing this.


Mark
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RE: [WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI

2007-01-26 Thread Rick Harnish
My sentiments exactly!  Excellent initiative Forbes.

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482
Founding Member of WISPA


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 1:27 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI

Excellent job. Forbes, you are to be commended for going directly to the
source to register your opinion personally and to get the skinny. Beats
the heck out of a continued speculative thread with much rumor, angst,
and anger, but no action. Taking personal initiative like that is how
real change begins.

Thank you for your effort.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Forbes Mercy
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 10:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI

So I was a bit curious as to who this Center for Public Integrity (CPI)
was and who funded them and what their intent was.   I looked them up
and gave the guy a call that is in charge of the lawsuit for CPI against
the FCC.  We had a long chat and he referred me to their website and
what they are trying to do:  http://www.publicintegrity.org/telecom/

Basically, according to the director of this project, they are trying to
mirror the other media provider information by providing a list by zip
code of who gives service in an area.   We discussed how inaccurate the
list is for say cable where my town supposedly has five cable providers
when in fact we have two and only one by the zip code I searched.   I
then asked if that is all the information they want from the FCC Form
477.  He said Yes all we really want is the provider name.  So I asked
why his FOI and lawsuit states ALL data provided in the Form 477.  I
explained that our competition already has enough of an advantage but if
they had their hands on the number of customers, their speeds, etc. by
zip code they would know where to spend money to go after us
specifically.  Essentially telling our competition everything about us
without even the tease of an offer to by protected by an non disclosure
agreement (NDA).  I think even Telco and Cable agree with us on this
potential which is why they have joined with the FCC opposing the full
disclosure request.

His answer (CPI) was that they don't expect to get the whole database
and in the end will likely compromise for just the names.   I told him I
have no problem giving my name or having the FCC do that but why ask for
everything, I said, it demonstrates intent to disclose so much more
that could damage us.   He said he knows that but it was their decision
to start there and work back to what they want.  I explained how when
you negotiate you don't ask for, let's say buying a car, for $2000 off
when you only want $500 off.   By doing so the salesman, in this case
the FCC, has no motivation to work with you because you made an
unreasonable request.  Why not just file the Freedom of Information
(FOI) request for just the provider names?  He said, it's nice to hear
a grass roots provider view but we felt this was the best bargaining
method.  He made clear they are not funded by a Corporation and are
certainly not trying to help anyone but consumers.  

I see one of two motivations for this: 1) They are being pushed by their
attorney to go too far which sounds about right for a lawyer who knows
he/they will get a lot more money for drawing out negotiations when he
could just make a reasonable request or, 2) CPI feels they will get more
donors and media attention by being able to make the claim they are
trying to protect the public in a big media splash saying we just want
their names while really asking for the whole cake.   They are a DC
organization so you can never really trust their intent.

Forbes Mercy 
President - Washington Broadband, Inc.
www.wabroadband.com


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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI

2007-01-26 Thread wispa
On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 10:15:04 -0800, Forbes Mercy wrote
 So I was a bit curious as to who this Center for Public Integrity 
 (CPI) was and who funded them and what their intent was.   I looked 
 them up and gave the guy a call that is in charge of the lawsuit for 
 CPI against the FCC.  We had a long chat and he referred me to their 
 website and what they are trying to do:  
http://www.publicintegrity.org/telecom/
 
 Basically, according to the director of this project, they are 
 trying to mirror the other media provider information by providing a 
 list by zip code of who gives service in an area.   We discussed how 
 inaccurate the list is for say cable where my town supposedly has 
 five cable providers when in fact we have two and only one by the 
 zip code I searched.   I then asked if that is all the information 
 they want from the FCC Form 477.  He said Yes all we really want is 
 the provider name.  So I asked why his FOI and lawsuit states ALL 
 data provided in the Form 477.  I explained that our competition 
 already has enough of an advantage but if they had their hands on 
 the number of customers, their speeds, etc. by zip code they would 
 know where to spend money to go after us specifically.  Essentially 
 telling our competition everything about us without even the tease 
 of an offer to by protected by an non disclosure agreement (NDA).  I 
 think even Telco and Cable agree with us on this potential which is 
 why they have joined with the FCC opposing the full disclosure request.
 
 His answer (CPI) was that they don't expect to get the whole 
 database and in the end will likely compromise for just the names.   
 I told him I have no problem giving my name or having the FCC do 
 that but why ask for everything, I said, it demonstrates intent to 
 disclose so much more that could damage us.   He said he knows that 
 but it was their decision to start there and work back to what they 
 want.  I explained how when you negotiate you don't ask for, let's 
 say buying a car, for $2000 off when you only want $500 off.   By 
 doing so the salesman, in this case the FCC, has no motivation to 
 work with you because you made an unreasonable request.  Why not 
 just file the Freedom of Information (FOI) request for just the 
 provider names?  He said, it's nice to hear a grass roots provider 
 view but we felt this was the best bargaining method.  He made 
 clear they are not funded by a Corporation and are certainly not 
 trying to help anyone but consumers.
 
 I see one of two motivations for this: 1) They are being pushed by 
 their attorney to go too far which sounds about right for a lawyer 
 who knows he/they will get a lot more money for drawing out 
 negotiations when he could just make a reasonable request or, 2) CPI 
 feels they will get more donors and media attention by being able to 
 make the claim they are trying to protect the public in a big media 
 splash saying we just want their names while really asking for the 
 whole cake.   They are a DC organization so you can never really 
 trust their intent.
 
 Forbes Mercy 
 President - Washington Broadband, Inc.
 www.wabroadband.com
 

I tried emailing them, but they don't respond to emails that say I don't 
like what you're trying to do, why are you doing this?

It's harder to turn away a phone call, I guess. 

Did you suggest to any of them that they ask US for information or try 
negotiating with trade groups for info? 

Mark


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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI

2007-01-26 Thread Tom DeReggi
It doesn;t matter what their intent is. Them winning will set a presidence, 
making it easier for others that may have mal-intent.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Forbes Mercy [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 1:15 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Form FCC477 - I called CPI


So I was a bit curious as to who this Center for Public Integrity (CPI) was 
and who funded them and what their intent was.   I looked them up and gave 
the guy a call that is in charge of the lawsuit for CPI against the FCC.  We 
had a long chat and he referred me to their website and what they are trying 
to do:  http://www.publicintegrity.org/telecom/


Basically, according to the director of this project, they are trying to 
mirror the other media provider information by providing a list by zip code 
of who gives service in an area.   We discussed how inaccurate the list is 
for say cable where my town supposedly has five cable providers when in fact 
we have two and only one by the zip code I searched.   I then asked if that 
is all the information they want from the FCC Form 477.  He said Yes all we 
really want is the provider name.  So I asked why his FOI and lawsuit 
states ALL data provided in the Form 477.  I explained that our competition 
already has enough of an advantage but if they had their hands on the number 
of customers, their speeds, etc. by zip code they would know where to spend 
money to go after us specifically.  Essentially telling our competition 
everything about us without even the tease of an offer to by protected by an 
non disclosure agreement (NDA).  I think even Telco and Cable agree with us 
on this potential which is why they have joined with the FCC opposing the 
full disclosure request.


His answer (CPI) was that they don't expect to get the whole database and in 
the end will likely compromise for just the names.   I told him I have no 
problem giving my name or having the FCC do that but why ask for everything, 
I said, it demonstrates intent to disclose so much more that could damage 
us.   He said he knows that but it was their decision to start there and 
work back to what they want.  I explained how when you negotiate you don't 
ask for, let's say buying a car, for $2000 off when you only want $500 off. 
By doing so the salesman, in this case the FCC, has no motivation to work 
with you because you made an unreasonable request.  Why not just file the 
Freedom of Information (FOI) request for just the provider names?  He said, 
it's nice to hear a grass roots provider view but we felt this was the best 
bargaining method.  He made clear they are not funded by a Corporation and 
are certainly not trying to help anyone but consumers.


I see one of two motivations for this: 1) They are being pushed by their 
attorney to go too far which sounds about right for a lawyer who knows 
he/they will get a lot more money for drawing out negotiations when he could 
just make a reasonable request or, 2) CPI feels they will get more donors 
and media attention by being able to make the claim they are trying to 
protect the public in a big media splash saying we just want their names 
while really asking for the whole cake.   They are a DC organization so you 
can never really trust their intent.


Forbes Mercy
President - Washington Broadband, Inc.
www.wabroadband.com


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[WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-25 Thread Cliff Leboeuf
Hehe!!!

I just received my reminder that my new 'confidential' FCC 477 form will
be due shortly.

Cliff LeBoeuf
www.cssla.com
www.triparish.net
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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-25 Thread Joe Laura
Ya, I just got a notice as well. I wonder what the response rate will be
this time around?
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Cliff Leboeuf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:02 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Form FCC477


Hehe!!!

I just received my reminder that my new 'confidential' FCC 477 form will
be due shortly.

Cliff LeBoeuf
www.cssla.com
www.triparish.net
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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-25 Thread Tom DeReggi
Yeah, I think I'll wait to see the results of how the legal battle turns out 
before I file.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Cliff Leboeuf [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 3:02 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Form FCC477


Hehe!!!

I just received my reminder that my new 'confidential' FCC 477 form will
be due shortly.

Cliff LeBoeuf
www.cssla.com
www.triparish.net
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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-25 Thread David E. Smith

Tom DeReggi wrote:
Yeah, I think I'll wait to see the results of how the legal battle turns 
out before I file.


The current form is due on March 1st, and the odds of the case being 
tied up before then are asymptotically close to zero.


Besides, you're probably required to file either way.

David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-25 Thread George Rogato
The way I see it is, I already gave them this information, whats the use 
of now saying no you can't have it again.


So I'll file again, why subject myself to possible liabilities.

I just went through something similar with the oregon PUC and our clec 
status. And I alsmost lost my status because of a mistake on their part, 
Another situation where they claimed we hadn't filed, even though we did.


 I don't want to have to deal with the FCC because of a missing form.

I am not saying to anyone else tyhat they should or shouldn't, thats 
your business not mine.





David E. Smith wrote:

Tom DeReggi wrote:

Yeah, I think I'll wait to see the results of how the legal battle 
turns out before I file.



The current form is due on March 1st, and the odds of the case being 
tied up before then are asymptotically close to zero.


Besides, you're probably required to file either way.

David Smith
MVN.net


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Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477

2007-01-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
I'm not particularly worried about my info getting into anyone's hands. 
I've got nothing to hide.  We'll fill it out again.  I'm far more worried 
about the fines than competitors learning anything useful from the 477.


Someone else brought up a great point.  You can't market your company and 
stay hidden.  If anyone's looking at your area for anything at all they'll 
find out all about you anyway.  Unless you don't want customers to ever hear 
about you :-).


laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Joe Laura [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form FCC477



Ya, I just got a notice as well. I wonder what the response rate will be
this time around?
Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
- Original Message -
From: Cliff Leboeuf [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:02 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Form FCC477


Hehe!!!

I just received my reminder that my new 'confidential' FCC 477 form will
be due shortly.

Cliff LeBoeuf
www.cssla.com
www.triparish.net
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