Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-12 Thread Tom DeReggi



Blair,

I agree, our environments are different, each 
allowing each of us to deliver different business models, each appropriate for 
our own markets. 

One of the things I'm learning is, as 
awireless provider, I live in the wrong town:-)
I'd make more money in this business, if I moved to 
an underserved area!

But I believe in competition, evolution and 
survival of the fittest. Our competitive environment hardens us. We are 
adapting to our environment in order to survive, and hopefully one day as a 
result, we willthrive. Getting better every day.

PS. Like the home tower plan. 

Tom DeReggiRapidDSL  Wireless, IncIntAirNet- Fixed Wireless 
Broadband

- Original Message - 

  From: 
  Blair Davis 

  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 11:05 
  AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas 
  Needed
   Tom,
  $59.95 per month small business, no contrac
  
  I'm not sure how that is a good thing. 
  Riskwith no contract, and no margin to justify the 
  risk.
  If its a retail place with 1 or 2 computers we 
  got a asyncronis plan for $99, but won't pick up the phone for less than 
  $150.
  
  $899 including a 70ft bracketed tower.
  
  That I want to see. Whats the breakdown of your 
  budget for it? And time for erection?
  256Kbit/sec up/down. Small business is less 
  than 6 computers. What risk? equipment and such are totally 
  covered by the install costs tower sections, $75 each x 7= 
  $525. Concrete $35. Bracket $35. Misc. rebar, bolts, gravel, 
  mast, clamps and such $25. total tower parts... $620Shipping? 
  no. Truck delivery from a local dist who makes a delivery loop each 
  weekRadio equipment and antenna varies from $150-250. Average = 
  $200 Labor 4-8 man-hours. Average is 6. $25 per 
  man-hour. Labor = $150Total cost is $970. Cust pays $899 
  upfront. our normal install labor costs are paid for by the first months 
  service charge of $39.95. On the towers, we accept the the first 2 month 
  service charge is labor recovery.In this county, no permits required 
  for 70 ft or less. No additional fees. And tower install, (for a 
  bracketed tower), is a flat $899. often, the tower is only 40-50 ft, 
  saving us the cost of 2-3 sections as well as the extra labor.Install 
  time for a bracketed tower is 2-4 weeks, depending on time of year and weather 
  conditions.We are a small shop. on some things, we can do well 
  on our pricing. On others, like the 900MHz systems I am looking at, our 
  lack of size hurts us bad...Tom DeReggi wrote:
  




Tom DeReggiRapidDSL  Wireless, IncIntAirNet- Fixed 
Wireless Broadband



  - 
  Original Message - 
  From: 
  Blair Davis 
  
  To: 
  WISPA General 
  List 
  Sent: 
  Friday, April 07, 2006 3:20 PM
  Subject: 
  Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed
  I have to agree with Mark here. We are using the same 
  model he is and we have more work than we know what to do 
  with$39.95 per month home, no contract / $59.95 per 
  month small business, no contract / Higher rates for special 
  services and/or special QoS, contract requiredInstalls start at 
  $199 and range to $899 including a 70ft bracketed tower. Special 
  cases go higher One subdivision just approved $5500 for a freestanding 
  tower to serve their 30 homes in a small valley. We own all radio 
  equipment.We clear our equipment and supplies cost for any new 
  install from the install fee. Sometimes, when we 'recycle' a radio, 
  we even make money on an install, but we don't plan on it. The labor 
  part of the install is covered by the first month or so's fees.We 
  allow self install if the customer buys his own equipment. No setup 
  charges for self install but unit must be approved prior to install and 
  must meet our snr requirements.We no longer try to compete 
  head-to-head with the cable or telephone companies. They can have 
  the $15 per month bottom feeders. There is way too much churn in 
  those markets for us.Another thing that helps us is that we are 
  more than an ISP. We are a full service computer shop as well. 
  When our customer calls in with a problem, and the radio gear checks out, 
  we don't pass them off as a problem in your computer, we hand the call to 
  our computer tech who can usually diagnose the problem over the 
  phone. If we go out and the problem is in the computer, not our 
  radio equipment, we waive the service call charge if the customer has our 
  shop fix the computer, and we will pick it up for free since we are 
  there.We credit a new customers first months service charge as a 
  discount to the referring customer. We started out 
  getting 4-5 calls a month for new service. We now get 5-7 a 
  WEEK. All word of mouth. Make friends with the real estate 
  agents. Give

Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-12 Thread Tom DeReggi



One of the reasons to use Trango 
is

All products, 900, 2.4, 5.3, 5.8. PTP, 
allhave a common sceme.

Linktest command - to diagnose link 
health.
Dual Polarity on the Fly - to quickly adapt, and 
repairnetwork interference.
Low Price - For small communities deployments, 
lowest CPE price on market, regarding Fox Atlas.
Easy configuration sceme- offering remote 
management, Layer 2 security, large packets (VLAN pass), uninhibited 
bridging.
Polling mechanism- To deliver consistent 
performance as the network grows.
Built in basic surge protection.
Support excellent.

You can't lose going this path.

Plus, Trango gear has shown to hold its value, if 
you fail, and need to liquidate your gear after the fact.

One of the reasons to use Self made gear (Mikrotik, 
StarOS)

1. Flexible to expand your network at rock bottom 
cost,home to home realy with jsut a $100 add-on to existing CPE, without 
needing a direct shot to the central towerfrom every home. This is 
not only a cost saving in equipment, but in time, savinggetting approval 
for installation plans with home owners or MTU property managers, or preventing 
the need to even get approvals.

2.Latest trend gear,available NOW, to 
deploy today.In other words, OFDM APs available.

Has its benefits, which can not be denied. However, 
I chose Trango.

If needing carrier class gear, that can 
consistently deliver 20 mbps speeds or higher per sector, Alvarion may also be 
an excellent choice. But its about double the cost, and you lose 
flexibilty in many areas of business.

Tom DeReggiRapidDSL  Wireless, IncIntAirNet- Fixed Wireless 
Broadband



  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joshua M. Andrews 
  To: wireless@wispa.org 
  Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 8:53 
PM
  Subject: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas 
  Needed
  
  Chris:
  
  I've heard so much 
  about Trango that I'm really intrigued! What is it that you use for 900 
  MHz? Why would I choose Trango over WaveRider anyway? 
  Thanks.
  
  -
  
  
  Pete:
  
  Thank you very 
  much for the detailed response. I wouldn't say I will be desperate as 
  I'm doing it mostly as a benefit to the community and money is a side-note for 
  me (I already have a great career so I'm really in it for the fun). Have 
  you tried Trango's 900 MHz, and if so, did it compare well to WaveRider? 
  Secondly, what equipment for the 802.11b have you had the success with? 
  Thanks again!
  
  --
  
  
  JohnnyO:
  
  It seems to be the 
  consensus is not to have any contracts for the service. It also seems to 
  be the consensus that other successful WISPs are having great success not 
  charging rock bottom prices. I've heard great things about WaveRider in 
  general and it seems virtually everyone also says that if I offer more than 1 
  Mbps to customers then I'm pushing it with WaveRider. You're right about 
  the local business comments.. I've seen it work very well in our "tight-nit" 
  community. I probably should up the price a bit and rethink my WaveRider 
  strategy. I HAVE to have 900 MHz.. other WISPs have seriously come and 
  gone with their 2.4 GHz stuff due to the trees and so I'm stuck between a rock 
  (WaveRider) and a hard place (Trango). Any ideas in this regard? 
  Thank you kindly.
  
  -
  
  
  Mark:
  
  Thank you very 
  much for your comments. I'm planning on the snail pace to get started. 
  :)
  
  
  
  
  
  Brian:
  
  I can probably 
  help you with this. What OS is the sub using? What kind of backup 
  do you want? Data only, Ghosting, Full backups with incremental, how 
  often, etc? How many machines, is this server-based, or 
  client-based?
  
  
  
  
  Matt:
  
  You stated that 
  you "used trango in the past and don't use them anymore"... who do you use 
  now? Thanks.
  
  
  
  
  Blair:
  
  I wanna be your 
  friend. I need hand-holding and you sound like you were in the position 
  I'm in today and can really help. What equipment are you using? 
  Thanks.
  
  Sincerely,
  
  Joshua
  
  
  

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Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-10 Thread Blair Davis




 Tom,
$59.95 per month small business, no contrac

I'm not sure how that is a good thing.
Riskwith no contract, and no margin to justify the risk.
If its a retail place with 1 or 2
computers we got a asyncronis plan for $99, but won't pick up the phone
for less than $150.

$899 including a 70ft bracketed tower.

That I want to see. Whats the
breakdown of your budget for it? And time for erection?


256Kbit/sec up/down. Small business is less than 6 computers. What
risk? equipment and such are totally covered by the install costs


tower sections, $75 each x 7= $525. Concrete $35. Bracket $35. Misc.
rebar, bolts, gravel, mast, clamps and such $25. total tower parts...
$620
Shipping? no. Truck delivery from a local dist who makes a delivery
loop each week

Radio equipment and antenna varies from $150-250. Average = $200 

Labor 4-8 man-hours. Average is 6. $25 per man-hour. Labor = $150

Total cost is $970. Cust pays $899 upfront. our normal install labor
costs are paid for by the first months service charge of $39.95. On
the towers, we accept the the first 2 month service charge is labor
recovery.

In this county, no permits required for 70 ft or less. No additional
fees. And tower install, (for a bracketed tower), is a flat $899.
often, the tower is only 40-50 ft, saving us the cost of 2-3 sections
as well as the extra labor.

Install time for a bracketed tower is 2-4 weeks, depending on time of
year and weather conditions.

We are a small shop. on some things, we can do well on our pricing.
On others, like the 900MHz systems I am looking at, our lack of size
hurts us bad...

Tom DeReggi wrote:

  
  
  
  
  
  Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
  
  
  
-
Original Message - 
From:
Blair
Davis 
To:
WISPA
General List 
Sent:
Friday, April 07, 2006 3:20 PM
Subject:
Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed


I have to agree with Mark here. We are using the same model he is and
we have more work than we know what to do with

$39.95 per month home, no contract / $59.95 per month small business,
no contract / Higher rates for special services and/or special QoS,
contract required

Installs start at $199 and range to $899 including a 70ft bracketed
tower. Special cases go higher One subdivision just approved $5500
for a freestanding tower to serve their 30 homes in a small valley. We
own all radio equipment.

We clear our equipment and supplies cost for any new install from the
install fee. Sometimes, when we 'recycle' a radio, we even make money
on an install, but we don't plan on it. The labor part of the install
is covered by the first month or so's fees.

We allow self install if the customer buys his own equipment. No setup
charges for self install but unit must be approved prior to install and
must meet our snr requirements.

We no longer try to compete head-to-head with the cable or telephone
companies. They can have the $15 per month bottom feeders. There is
way too much churn in those markets for us.

Another thing that helps us is that we are more than an ISP. We are a
full service computer shop as well. When our customer calls in with a
problem, and the radio gear checks out, we don't pass them off as a
problem in your computer, we hand the call to our computer tech who can
usually diagnose the problem over the phone. If we go out and the
problem is in the computer, not our radio equipment, we waive the
service call charge if the customer has our shop fix the computer, and
we will pick it up for free since we are there.

We credit a new customers first months service charge as a discount to
the referring customer. 

We started out getting 4-5 calls a month for new service. We now get
5-7 a WEEK. All word of mouth. Make friends with the real estate
agents. Give them flyers to give to their clients. Work hard to get
the local, small businesses as clients. They will give you all the
free, word of mouth advertising you can use. They will also let pass
out your flyers to their customers

It works for us We now offer service anywhere in our county. We
built our network with our own private funds. No government handouts.
We are profitable, and have less than $10K in debt. We will retire
that debt this year.






Mark Nash wrote:

  Doesn't it depend on your customer base?  Did we hear that this is a small
town?  Your way of doing things is like mine.  Show value and provide a good
service and you will have very little churn in your customers.  There are a
number of small towns (1k-4k population) that I service, but once we went
into the larger town (200k), we would have to give it away, longer ROI on
the CPE, lower margin, etc.  And the customers are more snobby when they are
used to being overserved by the larger companies (telco  cable).

Being a small company, I have found that our initial focus is the best for
us: small towns

RE: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-08 Thread chris cooper









WR. Ive never used the Trango 900 Mhz.
WR needs a POE CCU. Not sure if Trango has that option or not. 



c

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Joshua M. Andrews
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 8:54
PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost
Ideas Needed





Chris:











I've heard so much about Trango that
I'm really intrigued! What is it that you use for 900 MHz? Why
would I choose Trango over WaveRider anyway? Thanks.











-

















Pete:











Thank you very much for the detailed
response. I wouldn't say I will be desperate as I'm doing it mostly as a
benefit to the community and money is a side-note for me (I already have a
great career so I'm really in it for the fun). Have you tried Trango's
900 MHz, and if so, did it compare well to WaveRider? Secondly, what
equipment for the 802.11b have you had the success with? Thanks again!











--

















JohnnyO:











It seems to be the consensus is not
to have any contracts for the service. It also seems to be the consensus
that other successful WISPs are having great success not charging rock bottom
prices. I've heard great things about WaveRider in general and it seems
virtually everyone also says that if I offer more than 1 Mbps to customers then
I'm pushing it with WaveRider. You're right about the local business
comments.. I've seen it work very well in our tight-nit
community. I probably should up the price a bit and rethink my WaveRider
strategy. I HAVE to have 900 MHz.. other WISPs have seriously come and
gone with their 2.4 GHz stuff due to the trees and so I'm stuck between a rock
(WaveRider) and a hard place (Trango). Any ideas in this regard?
Thank you kindly.











-

















Mark:











Thank you very much for your
comments. I'm planning on the snail pace to get started. :)



































Brian:











I can probably help you with
this. What OS is the sub using? What kind of backup do you
want? Data only, Ghosting, Full backups with incremental, how often,
etc? How many machines, is this server-based, or client-based?





























Matt:











You stated that you used
trango in the past and don't use them anymore... who do you use
now? Thanks.





























Blair:











I wanna be your friend. I need
hand-holding and you sound like you were in the position I'm in today and can
really help. What equipment are you using? Thanks.











Sincerely,











Joshua














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[WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-08 Thread Joshua M. Andrews



Carl:

You really hammered 
home the point that everyone seems to be making. It's not about the 
price.. it's about the quality of the technical and social service 
provided. Thank you for your excellent points.

--


Chris 
Cooper:

Yes, they have POE 
on their CPE's.


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Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-08 Thread Pete Davis
I have been told that the new WR CCU is POE-able. I don't know about 
Trango either.


pd

chris cooper wrote:


WR.  Ive never used the Trango 900 Mhz.  WR needs a POE CCU.  Not sure 
if Trango has that option or not.


 


c

-Original Message-
*From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
*On Behalf Of *Joshua M. Andrews

*Sent:* Friday, April 07, 2006 8:54 PM
*To:* wireless@wispa.org
*Subject:* [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

 


Chris:

 

I've heard so much about Trango that I'm really intrigued!  What is it 
that you use for 900 MHz?  Why would I choose Trango over WaveRider 
anyway?  Thanks.


 


-

 

 


Pete:

 

Thank you very much for the detailed response.  I wouldn't say I will 
be desperate as I'm doing it mostly as a benefit to the community and 
money is a side-note for me (I already have a great career so I'm 
really in it for the fun).  Have you tried Trango's 900 MHz, and if 
so, did it compare well to WaveRider?  Secondly, what equipment for 
the 802.11b have you had the success with?  Thanks again!


 


--

 

 


JohnnyO:

 

It seems to be the consensus is not to have any contracts for the 
service.  It also seems to be the consensus that other successful 
WISPs are having great success not charging rock bottom prices.  I've 
heard great things about WaveRider in general and it seems virtually 
everyone also says that if I offer more than 1 Mbps to customers then 
I'm pushing it with WaveRider.  You're right about the local business 
comments.. I've seen it work very well in our tight-nit community.  
I probably should up the price a bit and rethink my WaveRider 
strategy.  I HAVE to have 900 MHz.. other WISPs have seriously come 
and gone with their 2.4 GHz stuff due to the trees and so I'm stuck 
between a rock (WaveRider) and a hard place (Trango).  Any ideas in 
this regard?  Thank you kindly.


 


-

 

 


Mark:

 

Thank you very much for your comments.  I'm planning on the snail pace 
to get started. :)


 

 




 

 


Brian:

 

I can probably help you with this.  What OS is the sub using?  What 
kind of backup do you want?  Data only, Ghosting, Full backups with 
incremental, how often, etc?  How many machines, is this server-based, 
or client-based?


 




 

 


Matt:

 

You stated that you used trango in the past and don't use them 
anymore... who do you use now?  Thanks.


 




 

 


Blair:

 

I wanna be your friend.  I need hand-holding and you sound like you 
were in the position I'm in today and can really help.  What equipment 
are you using?  Thanks.


 


Sincerely,

 


Joshua

 




No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.0/304 - Release Date: 4/7/2006
  


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RE: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-08 Thread JohnnyO
Title: Message




$899 including a 70ft 
bracketed tower.

Sorry 
Blair, but I am with Tom on this one. There is no such thing as a $899.00 
"bracketed" tower that is installed properly. There are no small towers out 
there rated at 70ft "bracketed" to anything. You need at minimum 1yd of concrete 
for a Rohn25 40ft FreeStanding tower that is bracketed to the side of the 
house.. l

$5500.00 for a freestanding tower ? ? ? ? Are you talking about 
just the steel ? What about base foundation ? cement ? labor 
?

JohnnyO

  
  -Original Message-From: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
  Tom DeReggiSent: Friday, April 07, 2006 4:55 PMTo: 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE 
  Cost Ideas Needed
  $59.95 per month small business, no contrac
  
  I'm not sure how that is a good thing. 
  Riskwith no contract, and no margin to justify the 
  risk.
  If its a retail place with 1 or 2 computers we 
  got a asyncronis plan for $99, but won't pick up the phone for less than 
  $150.
  
  
  That I want to see. Whats the breakdown of your 
  budget for it? And time for errection?
  
  
  Tom DeReggiRapidDSL  Wireless, IncIntAirNet- Fixed Wireless 
  Broadband
  
  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
Blair Davis 

To: WISPA General List 
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 3:20 
PM
    Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas 
Needed
I have to agree with Mark here. We are using the same 
model he is and we have more work than we know what to do 
with$39.95 per month home, no contract / $59.95 per month 
small business, no contract / Higher rates for special services and/or 
special QoS, contract requiredInstalls start at $199 and range to 
$899 including a 70ft bracketed tower. Special cases go higher One 
subdivision just approved $5500 for a freestanding tower to serve their 30 
homes in a small valley. We own all radio equipment.We clear 
our equipment and supplies cost for any new install from the install 
fee. Sometimes, when we 'recycle' a radio, we even make money on an 
install, but we don't plan on it. The labor part of the install is 
covered by the first month or so's fees.We allow self install if the 
customer buys his own equipment. No setup charges for self install but 
unit must be approved prior to install and must meet our snr 
requirements.We no longer try to compete head-to-head with the cable 
or telephone companies. They can have the $15 per month bottom 
feeders. There is way too much churn in those markets for 
us.Another thing that helps us is that we are more than an 
ISP. We are a full service computer shop as well. When our 
customer calls in with a problem, and the radio gear checks out, we don't 
pass them off as a problem in your computer, we hand the call to our 
computer tech who can usually diagnose the problem over the phone. If 
we go out and the problem is in the computer, not our radio equipment, we 
waive the service call charge if the customer has our shop fix the computer, 
and we will pick it up for free since we are there.We credit a new 
customers first months service charge as a discount to the referring 
customer. We started out getting 4-5 calls a month for new 
service. We now get 5-7 a WEEK. All word of mouth. Make 
friends with the real estate agents. Give them flyers to give to their 
clients. Work hard to get the local, small businesses as 
clients. They will give you all the free, word of mouth advertising 
you can use. They will also let pass out your flyers to their 
customersIt works for us We now offer service anywhere 
in our county. We built our network with our own private funds. 
No government handouts. We are profitable, and have less than $10K in 
debt. We will retire that debt this 
year.Mark Nash wrote:
Doesn't it depend on your customer base?  Did we hear that this is a small
town?  Your way of doing things is like mine.  Show value and provide a good
service and you will have very little churn in your customers.  There are a
number of small towns (1k-4k population) that I service, but once we went
into the larger town (200k), we would have to give it away, longer ROI on
the CPE, lower margin, etc.  And the customers are more snobby when they are
used to being overserved by the larger companies (telco  cable).

Being a small company, I have found that our initial focus is the best for
us: small towns  rural area.  We have a nice valley that
(topographically-speaking) supports this well.  We are members of the
chambers of commerce, our kids have played sports together, see each other
in the grocery store, etc.  I have even gone so far as to work with the
local hardware store to carry most of the general items that I use such as
RJ45's, weatherproof tape, zip-t

Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-07 Thread Pete Davis

Joshua M. Andrews wrote:

Cliff:
 
Thank you for the information.  The areas of DSL are very spotty and 
cable is very inexpensive and unreliable.  Many people are upset at 
both situations.  DSL is offered for about $30 per month with purchase 
of a DSL modem at around $50 or so and a 1 year contract is 
required.  Cable service rents you the modem for $10 per month and 
charges $40 per month for service on top of that ($50 per month total 
for those of you out there in other posts that think half-duplex is as 
good a full-duplex).
 
I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and 
offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the 
competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350 
CPE cost.
 
--


Pete:
 
Thank you for the detailed response.  I appreciate you taking the time 
to comment.  I don't want to be rude but I took a look at your website 
and it needs some work. :(
In any case, I think you have a point.  Could you elaborate more on 
what you meant by going with a 802.11b AP/CPE.  Do you mean you are 
shooting a signal out to an area using WaveRider and then distributing 
it via another 802.11b AP from there?  I think your right about 
contracts and install fees and it sounds like your saying that I'm 
just going to have to eat the cost and extend my ROI per user.  Thanks 
again.
  
900Mhz client to 802.11b AP to 802.11b client is one scenario, but I 
would also put 802.11b APs on the main tower. If you put up a $300 AP 
and 5 $150 CPE, you will be doing better ($220 average customer 
equipment cost) than a purely Waverider network. You should be able to 
do better than 5 clients per AP.


Yes my website needs work, but we always have more installs that we 
possibly have time to get to. When we get caught up on installs, we will 
revamp the website to bring more in.


I wouldn't count on giving 1.5M to every customer on your network over 
Waverider. I have played with every GOS setting I can come up with, and 
cannot MAINTAIN over 1Mbps connectivity to multiple clients.


I would also consider the thought that you don't have to be the cheapest 
ISP in town to be the busiest or the best.. Its gonna take a LOT more 
$25/mo clients to get traction than at $40 or $50/mo. I wouldn't install 
any customer who will take 12 months to get CFP (cash flow positive, 
paying for CPE and installation costs). Not starting out, anyway, unless 
I was DESPERATE to get market share. Desperation is almost never a good 
position to be in.
I get $39/mo for residential service and $59/$99 for business service. 
DSL is cheaper, and in one area, Cablemodem is cheaper. We still stay 
busy with new customers, and we don't put in a new tower until the last 
tower is CFP. More money coming in the door than going out is a big part 
(only part?) for successful business. ISP business is no exception. When 
you run out of money, you are out of business.

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RE: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-07 Thread JohnnyO
 I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
 offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the 
 competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350 
 CPE cost.
  

IMNSHO - If you are trying to compete you will fall on your face in a
heartbeat. We charge more then the competition and we do so for a
reason. Our installs start at $250 for a 'basic' install. Our monthly
rates are atleast $10-$15/more then the DSL or Cable offerings in our
area. We avoid the bottom feeders this way. We could double or triple
our subscriber count within 12mos if we would drop down $15/mo for our
service but I refuse to do that. Volume of low end subscribers becomes
a very costly support decision.

I refuse to compete on pricing - we are local - we hire local people -
we donate and support the local sports teams / associations. We shake
our subscribers hands in the stores / at gas pumps / baseball games. We
pump $$ into the local business's for our supplies, materials. 

$24.95/mo - If I were you - I would SERIOUSLY rethink your business
model. Oh - we also don't have contracts - We do have a TOS, but have
found there is really no reason to get subscribers to committ. If we do
our job - they will stay - if we fail to support them as we've promised
- they will bail. Kinda helps keep us on our toes :)

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 6:50 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed


Joshua M. Andrews wrote:
 Cliff:
  
 Thank you for the information.  The areas of DSL are very spotty and
 cable is very inexpensive and unreliable.  Many people are upset at 
 both situations.  DSL is offered for about $30 per month with purchase

 of a DSL modem at around $50 or so and a 1 year contract is 
 required.  Cable service rents you the modem for $10 per month and 
 charges $40 per month for service on top of that ($50 per month total 
 for those of you out there in other posts that think half-duplex is as

 good a full-duplex).
  
 I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
 offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the 
 competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350 
 CPE cost.
  
 --

 Pete:
  
 Thank you for the detailed response.  I appreciate you taking the time
 to comment.  I don't want to be rude but I took a look at your website

 and it needs some work. :(
 In any case, I think you have a point.  Could you elaborate more on 
 what you meant by going with a 802.11b AP/CPE.  Do you mean you are 
 shooting a signal out to an area using WaveRider and then distributing

 it via another 802.11b AP from there?  I think your right about 
 contracts and install fees and it sounds like your saying that I'm 
 just going to have to eat the cost and extend my ROI per user.  Thanks

 again.
   
900Mhz client to 802.11b AP to 802.11b client is one scenario, but I 
would also put 802.11b APs on the main tower. If you put up a $300 AP 
and 5 $150 CPE, you will be doing better ($220 average customer 
equipment cost) than a purely Waverider network. You should be able to 
do better than 5 clients per AP.

Yes my website needs work, but we always have more installs that we 
possibly have time to get to. When we get caught up on installs, we will

revamp the website to bring more in.

I wouldn't count on giving 1.5M to every customer on your network over 
Waverider. I have played with every GOS setting I can come up with, and 
cannot MAINTAIN over 1Mbps connectivity to multiple clients.

I would also consider the thought that you don't have to be the cheapest

ISP in town to be the busiest or the best.. Its gonna take a LOT more 
$25/mo clients to get traction than at $40 or $50/mo. I wouldn't install

any customer who will take 12 months to get CFP (cash flow positive, 
paying for CPE and installation costs). Not starting out, anyway, unless

I was DESPERATE to get market share. Desperation is almost never a good 
position to be in.
I get $39/mo for residential service and $59/$99 for business service. 
DSL is cheaper, and in one area, Cablemodem is cheaper. We still stay 
busy with new customers, and we don't put in a new tower until the last 
tower is CFP. More money coming in the door than going out is a big part

(only part?) for successful business. ISP business is no exception. When

you run out of money, you are out of business.
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Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-07 Thread Pete Davis

Well said. You don't need to be the cheapest to be profitable.

pd

JohnnyO wrote:

I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the 
competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350 
CPE cost.
 



IMNSHO - If you are trying to compete you will fall on your face in a
heartbeat. We charge more then the competition and we do so for a
reason. Our installs start at $250 for a 'basic' install. Our monthly
rates are atleast $10-$15/more then the DSL or Cable offerings in our
area. We avoid the bottom feeders this way. We could double or triple
our subscriber count within 12mos if we would drop down $15/mo for our
service but I refuse to do that. Volume of low end subscribers becomes
a very costly support decision.

I refuse to compete on pricing - we are local - we hire local people -
we donate and support the local sports teams / associations. We shake
our subscribers hands in the stores / at gas pumps / baseball games. We
pump $$ into the local business's for our supplies, materials. 


$24.95/mo - If I were you - I would SERIOUSLY rethink your business
model. Oh - we also don't have contracts - We do have a TOS, but have
found there is really no reason to get subscribers to committ. If we do
our job - they will stay - if we fail to support them as we've promised
- they will bail. Kinda helps keep us on our toes :)

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 6:50 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed


Joshua M. Andrews wrote:
  

Cliff:
 
Thank you for the information.  The areas of DSL are very spotty and
cable is very inexpensive and unreliable.  Many people are upset at 
both situations.  DSL is offered for about $30 per month with purchase



  
of a DSL modem at around $50 or so and a 1 year contract is 
required.  Cable service rents you the modem for $10 per month and 
charges $40 per month for service on top of that ($50 per month total 
for those of you out there in other posts that think half-duplex is as



  

good a full-duplex).
 
I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the 
competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350 
CPE cost.
 
--


Pete:
 
Thank you for the detailed response.  I appreciate you taking the time

to comment.  I don't want to be rude but I took a look at your website



  

and it needs some work. :(
In any case, I think you have a point.  Could you elaborate more on 
what you meant by going with a 802.11b AP/CPE.  Do you mean you are 
shooting a signal out to an area using WaveRider and then distributing



  
it via another 802.11b AP from there?  I think your right about 
contracts and install fees and it sounds like your saying that I'm 
just going to have to eat the cost and extend my ROI per user.  Thanks



  

again.
  

900Mhz client to 802.11b AP to 802.11b client is one scenario, but I 
would also put 802.11b APs on the main tower. If you put up a $300 AP 
and 5 $150 CPE, you will be doing better ($220 average customer 
equipment cost) than a purely Waverider network. You should be able to 
do better than 5 clients per AP.


Yes my website needs work, but we always have more installs that we 
possibly have time to get to. When we get caught up on installs, we will


revamp the website to bring more in.

I wouldn't count on giving 1.5M to every customer on your network over 
Waverider. I have played with every GOS setting I can come up with, and 
cannot MAINTAIN over 1Mbps connectivity to multiple clients.


I would also consider the thought that you don't have to be the cheapest

ISP in town to be the busiest or the best.. Its gonna take a LOT more 
$25/mo clients to get traction than at $40 or $50/mo. I wouldn't install


any customer who will take 12 months to get CFP (cash flow positive, 
paying for CPE and installation costs). Not starting out, anyway, unless


I was DESPERATE to get market share. Desperation is almost never a good 
position to be in.
I get $39/mo for residential service and $59/$99 for business service. 
DSL is cheaper, and in one area, Cablemodem is cheaper. We still stay 
busy with new customers, and we don't put in a new tower until the last 
tower is CFP. More money coming in the door than going out is a big part


(only part?) for successful business. ISP business is no exception. When

you run out of money, you are out of business.
  


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Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-07 Thread Mark Nash
Doesn't it depend on your customer base?  Did we hear that this is a small
town?  Your way of doing things is like mine.  Show value and provide a good
service and you will have very little churn in your customers.  There are a
number of small towns (1k-4k population) that I service, but once we went
into the larger town (200k), we would have to give it away, longer ROI on
the CPE, lower margin, etc.  And the customers are more snobby when they are
used to being overserved by the larger companies (telco  cable).

Being a small company, I have found that our initial focus is the best for
us: small towns  rural area.  We have a nice valley that
(topographically-speaking) supports this well.  We are members of the
chambers of commerce, our kids have played sports together, see each other
in the grocery store, etc.  I have even gone so far as to work with the
local hardware store to carry most of the general items that I use such as
RJ45's, weatherproof tape, zip-ties, mounting screws  such.

We charge $44.95 for a residential/mom  pop-type business with a $199
installation.  We give a $25 credit to an existing customer who refers a new
customer to us, and that new customer gets $25 off of their installation fee
just for being referred.  Works great.  No contract...provide a good service
and don't give people a reason to think about changing if they have a
choice.

This works for a small-town environment, but as I said, it all changes if
you're going after a larger town/city/whatever.  Then it's harder to sell
your value at a higher price.  You can do it, it just takes more.

I believe that without a significant amount of funding available up front,
a WISP would be crazy to try to come in at $25 per month.  Consider that you
may get 1 to 2 customers per month in the beginning until your advertising 
word-of-mouth gets going (4-10 months depending on how much $$$ you sink
into it).  Then it will 'surge' to 4-6 customers per month.  What I'm saying
here is go conservative at first, make some $$$, then re-evaluate your
cost/revenue model.  If you overestimate, you'll be frustrated for a long,
long time with the lack of funding you will have to do things.

Now is a GREAT time to start a WISP.  The major factor in expansion has
always been CPE cost, CPE cost, CPE cost.  When we started in 2001, it was
like $600.  Things went very, very, slowly because noone was willing to pay
for the equipment.  So unless we wanted to go further into debt, we had to
grow at a snail's pace after we were covering our costs.

I'm sure there's a spreadsheet that has been generated here for costs vs.
revenue.  Consider potential vs. reality  play it safe and you may not be
disappointed.

Mark Nash
Network Engineer
UnwiredOnline.Net
350 Holly Street
Junction City, OR 97448
http://www.uwol.net
541-998-
541-998-5599 fax

- Original Message - 
From: JohnnyO [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 5:34 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed


  I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
  offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the
  competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350
  CPE cost.
 

 IMNSHO - If you are trying to compete you will fall on your face in a
 heartbeat. We charge more then the competition and we do so for a
 reason. Our installs start at $250 for a 'basic' install. Our monthly
 rates are atleast $10-$15/more then the DSL or Cable offerings in our
 area. We avoid the bottom feeders this way. We could double or triple
 our subscriber count within 12mos if we would drop down $15/mo for our
 service but I refuse to do that. Volume of low end subscribers becomes
 a very costly support decision.

 I refuse to compete on pricing - we are local - we hire local people -
 we donate and support the local sports teams / associations. We shake
 our subscribers hands in the stores / at gas pumps / baseball games. We
 pump $$ into the local business's for our supplies, materials.

 $24.95/mo - If I were you - I would SERIOUSLY rethink your business
 model. Oh - we also don't have contracts - We do have a TOS, but have
 found there is really no reason to get subscribers to committ. If we do
 our job - they will stay - if we fail to support them as we've promised
 - they will bail. Kinda helps keep us on our toes :)

 JohnnyO

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Pete Davis
 Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 6:50 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed


 Joshua M. Andrews wrote:
  Cliff:
 
  Thank you for the information.  The areas of DSL are very spotty and
  cable is very inexpensive and unreliable.  Many people are upset at
  both situations.  DSL is offered for about $30 per month with purchase

  of a DSL modem at around $50 or so and a 1 year contract is
  required.  Cable service rents you the modem for $10 per

Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-07 Thread Tom DeReggi

Johny made a great point.

In wireless you are going to need the margin to cover truck rolls, and 
support, equipment failure, and all that stuff.
What you will find is that wirelesss has less customer awareness and is 
harder to sell, and you are going to need mnore margin to pay you back for 
that effort.  Selling at a lower price just labels you as  a commodity 
provider, and takes away the benefit that most that would chose wireless 
would want. A choice of a local provider that offers better support. An item 
with a price tag of $20 is worth $20 in the consumers mind. A product with a 
price tag of $45 is worth $45 in the consumers mind. Not all will afford the 
$45 product, but you want the ones that can. They are also probably the ones 
not always looking for something for free, and willing to pay for add-on 
field service work, etc.




Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: JohnnyO [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 8:34 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed



I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the
competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350
CPE cost.



IMNSHO - If you are trying to compete you will fall on your face in a
heartbeat. We charge more then the competition and we do so for a
reason. Our installs start at $250 for a 'basic' install. Our monthly
rates are atleast $10-$15/more then the DSL or Cable offerings in our
area. We avoid the bottom feeders this way. We could double or triple
our subscriber count within 12mos if we would drop down $15/mo for our
service but I refuse to do that. Volume of low end subscribers becomes
a very costly support decision.

I refuse to compete on pricing - we are local - we hire local people -
we donate and support the local sports teams / associations. We shake
our subscribers hands in the stores / at gas pumps / baseball games. We
pump $$ into the local business's for our supplies, materials.

$24.95/mo - If I were you - I would SERIOUSLY rethink your business
model. Oh - we also don't have contracts - We do have a TOS, but have
found there is really no reason to get subscribers to committ. If we do
our job - they will stay - if we fail to support them as we've promised
- they will bail. Kinda helps keep us on our toes :)

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 6:50 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed


Joshua M. Andrews wrote:

Cliff:

Thank you for the information.  The areas of DSL are very spotty and
cable is very inexpensive and unreliable.  Many people are upset at
both situations.  DSL is offered for about $30 per month with purchase



of a DSL modem at around $50 or so and a 1 year contract is
required.  Cable service rents you the modem for $10 per month and
charges $40 per month for service on top of that ($50 per month total
for those of you out there in other posts that think half-duplex is as



good a full-duplex).

I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the
competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350
CPE cost.

--

Pete:

Thank you for the detailed response.  I appreciate you taking the time
to comment.  I don't want to be rude but I took a look at your website



and it needs some work. :(
In any case, I think you have a point.  Could you elaborate more on
what you meant by going with a 802.11b AP/CPE.  Do you mean you are
shooting a signal out to an area using WaveRider and then distributing



it via another 802.11b AP from there?  I think your right about
contracts and install fees and it sounds like your saying that I'm
just going to have to eat the cost and extend my ROI per user.  Thanks



again.


900Mhz client to 802.11b AP to 802.11b client is one scenario, but I
would also put 802.11b APs on the main tower. If you put up a $300 AP
and 5 $150 CPE, you will be doing better ($220 average customer
equipment cost) than a purely Waverider network. You should be able to
do better than 5 clients per AP.

Yes my website needs work, but we always have more installs that we
possibly have time to get to. When we get caught up on installs, we will

revamp the website to bring more in.

I wouldn't count on giving 1.5M to every customer on your network over
Waverider. I have played with every GOS setting I can come up with, and
cannot MAINTAIN over 1Mbps connectivity to multiple clients.

I would also consider the thought that you don't have to be the cheapest

ISP in town to be the busiest or the best.. Its gonna take a LOT more
$25/mo clients to get traction than at $40 or $50/mo. I wouldn't install

any customer who will take 12 months to get CFP

Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-07 Thread Brian Rohrbacher

You stole my thoughts!?  ;)


JohnnyO wrote:


I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the 
competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350 
CPE cost.


   



IMNSHO - If you are trying to compete you will fall on your face in a
heartbeat. We charge more then the competition and we do so for a
reason. Our installs start at $250 for a 'basic' install. Our monthly
rates are atleast $10-$15/more then the DSL or Cable offerings in our
area. We avoid the bottom feeders this way. We could double or triple
our subscriber count within 12mos if we would drop down $15/mo for our
service but I refuse to do that. Volume of low end subscribers becomes
a very costly support decision.

I refuse to compete on pricing - we are local - we hire local people -
we donate and support the local sports teams / associations. We shake
our subscribers hands in the stores / at gas pumps / baseball games. We
pump $$ into the local business's for our supplies, materials. 


$24.95/mo - If I were you - I would SERIOUSLY rethink your business
model. Oh - we also don't have contracts - We do have a TOS, but have
found there is really no reason to get subscribers to committ. If we do
our job - they will stay - if we fail to support them as we've promised
- they will bail. Kinda helps keep us on our toes :)

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 6:50 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed


Joshua M. Andrews wrote:
 


Cliff:

Thank you for the information.  The areas of DSL are very spotty and
cable is very inexpensive and unreliable.  Many people are upset at 
both situations.  DSL is offered for about $30 per month with purchase
   



 

of a DSL modem at around $50 or so and a 1 year contract is 
required.  Cable service rents you the modem for $10 per month and 
charges $40 per month for service on top of that ($50 per month total 
for those of you out there in other posts that think half-duplex is as
   



 


good a full-duplex).

I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the 
competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350 
CPE cost.


--

Pete:

Thank you for the detailed response.  I appreciate you taking the time
to comment.  I don't want to be rude but I took a look at your website
   



 


and it needs some work. :(
In any case, I think you have a point.  Could you elaborate more on 
what you meant by going with a 802.11b AP/CPE.  Do you mean you are 
shooting a signal out to an area using WaveRider and then distributing
   



 

it via another 802.11b AP from there?  I think your right about 
contracts and install fees and it sounds like your saying that I'm 
just going to have to eat the cost and extend my ROI per user.  Thanks
   



 


again.
 
   

900Mhz client to 802.11b AP to 802.11b client is one scenario, but I 
would also put 802.11b APs on the main tower. If you put up a $300 AP 
and 5 $150 CPE, you will be doing better ($220 average customer 
equipment cost) than a purely Waverider network. You should be able to 
do better than 5 clients per AP.


Yes my website needs work, but we always have more installs that we 
possibly have time to get to. When we get caught up on installs, we will


revamp the website to bring more in.

I wouldn't count on giving 1.5M to every customer on your network over 
Waverider. I have played with every GOS setting I can come up with, and 
cannot MAINTAIN over 1Mbps connectivity to multiple clients.


I would also consider the thought that you don't have to be the cheapest

ISP in town to be the busiest or the best.. Its gonna take a LOT more 
$25/mo clients to get traction than at $40 or $50/mo. I wouldn't install


any customer who will take 12 months to get CFP (cash flow positive, 
paying for CPE and installation costs). Not starting out, anyway, unless


I was DESPERATE to get market share. Desperation is almost never a good 
position to be in.
I get $39/mo for residential service and $59/$99 for business service. 
DSL is cheaper, and in one area, Cablemodem is cheaper. We still stay 
busy with new customers, and we don't put in a new tower until the last 
tower is CFP. More money coming in the door than going out is a big part


(only part?) for successful business. ISP business is no exception. When

you run out of money, you are out of business.
 


--
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Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-07 Thread Blair Davis
 for costs vs.
revenue.  Consider potential vs. reality  play it safe and you may not be
disappointed.

Mark Nash
Network Engineer
UnwiredOnline.Net
350 Holly Street
Junction City, OR 97448
http://www.uwol.net
541-998-
541-998-5599 fax

- Original Message - 
From: "JohnnyO" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'WISPA General List'" wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 5:34 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed


  
  

  I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the
competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350
CPE cost.

  

IMNSHO - If you are trying to "compete" you will fall on your face in a
heartbeat. We charge more then the competition and we do so for a
reason. Our installs start at $250 for a 'basic' install. Our monthly
rates are atleast $10-$15/more then the DSL or Cable offerings in our
area. We avoid the bottom feeders this way. We could double or triple
our subscriber count within 12mos if we would drop down $15/mo for our
service but I refuse to do that. "Volume" of low end subscribers becomes
a very costly support decision.

I refuse to compete on pricing - we are local - we hire local people -
we donate and support the local sports teams / associations. We shake
our subscribers hands in the stores / at gas pumps / baseball games. We
pump $$ into the local business's for our supplies, materials.

$24.95/mo - If I were you - I would SERIOUSLY rethink your business
model. Oh - we also don't have contracts - We do have a TOS, but have
found there is really no reason to get subscribers to committ. If we do
our job - they will stay - if we fail to support them as we've promised
- they will bail. Kinda helps keep us on our toes :)

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 6:50 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed


Joshua M. Andrews wrote:


  Cliff:

Thank you for the information.  The areas of DSL are very spotty and
cable is very inexpensive and unreliable.  Many people are upset at
both situations.  DSL is offered for about $30 per month with purchase
  


  of a DSL "modem" at around $50 or so and a 1 year contract is
required.  Cable service rents you the modem for $10 per month and
charges $40 per month for service on top of that ($50 per month total
for those of you out there in other posts that think half-duplex is as
  


  good a full-duplex).

I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the
competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350
CPE cost.

--

Pete:

Thank you for the detailed response.  I appreciate you taking the time
to comment.  I don't want to be rude but I took a look at your website
  


  and it needs some work. :(
In any case, I think you have a point.  Could you elaborate more on
what you meant by going with a 802.11b AP/CPE.  Do you mean you are
shooting a signal out to an area using WaveRider and then distributing
  


  it via another 802.11b AP from there?  I think your right about
contracts and install fees and it sounds like your saying that I'm
just going to have to eat the cost and extend my ROI per user.  Thanks
  


  again.

  

900Mhz client to 802.11b AP to 802.11b client is one scenario, but I
would also put 802.11b APs on the main tower. If you put up a $300 AP
and 5 $150 CPE, you will be doing better ($220 average customer
equipment cost) than a purely Waverider network. You should be able to
do better than 5 clients per AP.

Yes my website needs work, but we always have more installs that we
possibly have time to get to. When we get caught up on installs, we will

revamp the website to bring more in.

I wouldn't count on giving 1.5M to every customer on your network over
Waverider. I have played with every GOS setting I can come up with, and
cannot MAINTAIN over 1Mbps connectivity to multiple clients.

I would also consider the thought that you don't have to be the cheapest

ISP in town to be the busiest or the best.. Its gonna take a LOT more
$25/mo clients to get traction than at $40 or $50/mo. I wouldn't install

any customer who will take 12 months to get CFP (cash flow positive,
paying for CPE and installation costs). Not starting out, anyway, unless

I was DESPERATE to get market share. Desperation is almost never a good
position to be in.
I get $39/mo for residential service and $59/$99 for business service.
DSL is cheaper, and in one area, Cablemodem is cheaper. We still stay
busy with new customers, and we don't put in a new tower until the last
tower is CFP. More money coming in the door than going out is a big part


Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-07 Thread Tom DeReggi



$59.95 per month small business, no contrac

I'm not sure how that is a good thing. 
Riskwith no contract, and no margin to justify the 
risk.
If its a retail place with 1 or 2 computers we got 
a asyncronis plan for $99, but won't pick up the phone for less than 
$150.

$899 including a 70ft bracketed tower.

That I want to see. Whats the breakdown of your 
budget for it? And time for errection?


Tom DeReggiRapidDSL  Wireless, IncIntAirNet- Fixed Wireless 
Broadband



  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Blair Davis 

  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 3:20 
PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas 
  Needed
  I have to agree with Mark here. We are using the same 
  model he is and we have more work than we know what to do 
  with$39.95 per month home, no contract / $59.95 per month 
  small business, no contract / Higher rates for special services and/or 
  special QoS, contract requiredInstalls start at $199 and range to $899 
  including a 70ft bracketed tower. Special cases go higher One 
  subdivision just approved $5500 for a freestanding tower to serve their 30 
  homes in a small valley. We own all radio equipment.We clear our 
  equipment and supplies cost for any new install from the install fee. 
  Sometimes, when we 'recycle' a radio, we even make money on an install, but we 
  don't plan on it. The labor part of the install is covered by the first 
  month or so's fees.We allow self install if the customer buys his own 
  equipment. No setup charges for self install but unit must be approved 
  prior to install and must meet our snr requirements.We no longer try 
  to compete head-to-head with the cable or telephone companies. They can 
  have the $15 per month bottom feeders. There is way too much churn in 
  those markets for us.Another thing that helps us is that we are more 
  than an ISP. We are a full service computer shop as well. When our 
  customer calls in with a problem, and the radio gear checks out, we don't pass 
  them off as a problem in your computer, we hand the call to our computer tech 
  who can usually diagnose the problem over the phone. If we go out and 
  the problem is in the computer, not our radio equipment, we waive the service 
  call charge if the customer has our shop fix the computer, and we will pick it 
  up for free since we are there.We credit a new customers first months 
  service charge as a discount to the referring customer. We 
  started out getting 4-5 calls a month for new service. We now get 5-7 a 
  WEEK. All word of mouth. Make friends with the real estate 
  agents. Give them flyers to give to their clients. Work hard to 
  get the local, small businesses as clients. They will give you all the 
  free, word of mouth advertising you can use. They will also let pass out 
  your flyers to their customersIt works for us We now 
  offer service anywhere in our county. We built our network with our own 
  private funds. No government handouts. We are profitable, and have 
  less than $10K in debt. We will retire that debt this 
  year.Mark Nash wrote:
  Doesn't it depend on your customer base?  Did we hear that this is a small
town?  Your way of doing things is like mine.  Show value and provide a good
service and you will have very little churn in your customers.  There are a
number of small towns (1k-4k population) that I service, but once we went
into the larger town (200k), we would have to give it away, longer ROI on
the CPE, lower margin, etc.  And the customers are more snobby when they are
used to being overserved by the larger companies (telco  cable).

Being a small company, I have found that our initial focus is the best for
us: small towns  rural area.  We have a nice valley that
(topographically-speaking) supports this well.  We are members of the
chambers of commerce, our kids have played sports together, see each other
in the grocery store, etc.  I have even gone so far as to work with the
local hardware store to carry most of the general items that I use such as
RJ45's, weatherproof tape, zip-ties, mounting screws  such.

We charge $44.95 for a residential/mom  pop-type business with a $199
installation.  We give a $25 credit to an existing customer who refers a new
customer to us, and that new customer gets $25 off of their installation fee
just for being referred.  Works great.  No contract...provide a good service
and don't give people a reason to think about changing if they have a
choice.

This works for a small-town environment, but as I said, it all changes if
you're going after a larger town/city/whatever.  Then it's harder to sell
your value at a higher price.  You can do it, it just takes more.

I believe that without a significant amount of funding available up front,
a WISP would be crazy to try to come in at $25 per month.  Consider that you
may get 1 to 2 customers per month in the beginning until your advertising 
word-of-mouth gets going (4-10 months depending

[WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-07 Thread Joshua M. Andrews



Chris:

I've heard so much 
about Trango that I'm really intrigued! What is it that you use for 900 
MHz? Why would I choose Trango over WaveRider anyway? 
Thanks.

-


Pete:

Thank you very much 
for the detailed response. I wouldn't say I will be desperate as I'm doing 
it mostly as a benefit to the community and money is a side-note for me (I 
already have a great career so I'm really in it for the fun). Have you 
tried Trango's 900 MHz, and if so, did it compare well to WaveRider? 
Secondly, what equipment for the 802.11b have you had the success with? 
Thanks again!

--


JohnnyO:

It seems to be the 
consensus is not to have any contracts for the service. It also seems to 
be the consensus that other successful WISPs are having great success not 
charging rock bottom prices. I've heard great things about WaveRider in 
general and it seems virtually everyone also says that if I offer more than 1 
Mbps to customers then I'm pushing it with WaveRider. You're right about 
the local business comments.. I've seen it work very well in our "tight-nit" 
community. I probably should up the price a bit and rethink my WaveRider 
strategy. I HAVE to have 900 MHz.. other WISPs have seriously come and 
gone with their 2.4 GHz stuff due to the trees and so I'm stuck between a rock 
(WaveRider) and a hard place (Trango). Any ideas in this regard? 
Thank you kindly.

-


Mark:

Thank you very much 
for your comments. I'm planning on the snail pace to get started. 
:)





Brian:

I can probably help 
you with this. What OS is the sub using? What kind of backup do you 
want? Data only, Ghosting, Full backups with incremental, how often, 
etc? How many machines, is this server-based, or 
client-based?




Matt:

You stated that you 
"used trango in the past and don't use them anymore"... who do you use 
now? Thanks.




Blair:

I wanna be your 
friend. I need hand-holding and you sound like you were in the position 
I'm in today and can really help. What equipment are you using? 
Thanks.

Sincerely,

Joshua

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Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-07 Thread Carl A Jeptha

Also Gentlemen and Ladies,
Remember why these good folks live in the backwoods of Louisiana, etc. :-) 
They like the peace and quiet and are willing to pay a local person to 
supply service to them. They also know that they have to pay a little 
extra to have the services of the big cities delivered to them.
I charge $395.00CAN setup (using Tranzeo CPQ's now) and $55.00, $75.00 
and $95.00 per month. I own the equipment. And yes I have noticed in my 
5th year it has really picked up. Struggling to keep up, but happy.
If you tell me about the big guy's cheapest price, I am the first one to 
suggest that you go with them as they definitely fit your criteria, 
thank you for the call, bye.
My customers like the fact that they can call up the fool and shoot the 
fat with him and he actually remembers some stupid tidbit of their 
personal life. He is actually for real and is the first one to say he 
has screwed up. Good old fashion values.
Yes some people have met the other side of me, I send them packing no 
regrets. Never ever bring your big city attitude to me, I will call the 
courier to send it packing and I do have competition.


You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha



Tom DeReggi wrote:

Johny made a great point.

In wireless you are going to need the margin to cover truck rolls, and 
support, equipment failure, and all that stuff.
What you will find is that wirelesss has less customer awareness and 
is harder to sell, and you are going to need mnore margin to pay you 
back for that effort.  Selling at a lower price just labels you as  a 
commodity provider, and takes away the benefit that most that would 
chose wireless would want. A choice of a local provider that offers 
better support. An item with a price tag of $20 is worth $20 in the 
consumers mind. A product with a price tag of $45 is worth $45 in the 
consumers mind. Not all will afford the $45 product, but you want the 
ones that can. They are also probably the ones not always looking for 
something for free, and willing to pay for add-on field service work, 
etc.




Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: JohnnyO [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 8:34 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed



I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the
competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350
CPE cost.



IMNSHO - If you are trying to compete you will fall on your face in a
heartbeat. We charge more then the competition and we do so for a
reason. Our installs start at $250 for a 'basic' install. Our monthly
rates are atleast $10-$15/more then the DSL or Cable offerings in our
area. We avoid the bottom feeders this way. We could double or triple
our subscriber count within 12mos if we would drop down $15/mo for our
service but I refuse to do that. Volume of low end subscribers becomes
a very costly support decision.

I refuse to compete on pricing - we are local - we hire local people -
we donate and support the local sports teams / associations. We shake
our subscribers hands in the stores / at gas pumps / baseball games. We
pump $$ into the local business's for our supplies, materials.

$24.95/mo - If I were you - I would SERIOUSLY rethink your business
model. Oh - we also don't have contracts - We do have a TOS, but have
found there is really no reason to get subscribers to committ. If we do
our job - they will stay - if we fail to support them as we've promised
- they will bail. Kinda helps keep us on our toes :)

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Pete Davis
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 6:50 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed


Joshua M. Andrews wrote:

Cliff:

Thank you for the information.  The areas of DSL are very spotty and
cable is very inexpensive and unreliable.  Many people are upset at
both situations.  DSL is offered for about $30 per month with purchase



of a DSL modem at around $50 or so and a 1 year contract is
required.  Cable service rents you the modem for $10 per month and
charges $40 per month for service on top of that ($50 per month total
for those of you out there in other posts that think half-duplex is as



good a full-duplex).

I'm shooting at offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and
offering VOIP for another $24.95 if they so choose.  So the
competition hasn't a chance against me if I can get around that $350
CPE cost.

--

Pete:

Thank you for the detailed response.  I appreciate you taking the time
to comment.  I don't want to be rude but I took a look at your website



and it needs some work. :(
In any case, I think you have a point.  Could you elaborate more on
what you

Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-07 Thread rabbtux rabbtux
Any idea how this might work in a market that has 50% part time
visitors? Many 2nd homes. We might starve during the
off-season.On 4/7/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:







$59.95 per month small business, no contrac

I'm not sure how that is a good thing. 
Riskwith no contract, and no margin to justify the 
risk.
If its a retail place with 1 or 2 computers we got 
a asyncronis plan for $99, but won't pick up the phone for less than 
$150.

$899 including a 70ft bracketed tower.

That I want to see. Whats the breakdown of your 
budget for it? And time for errection?


Tom DeReggiRapidDSL  Wireless, IncIntAirNet- Fixed Wireless 
Broadband




  - Original Message - 
  
From: 
  Blair Davis 

  To: 
WISPA General List 
  Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 3:20 
PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas 
  Needed
  I have to agree with Mark here. We are using the same 
  model he is and we have more work than we know what to do 
  with$39.95 per month home, no contract / $59.95 per month 
  small business, no contract / Higher rates for special services and/or 
  special QoS, contract requiredInstalls start at $199 and range to $899 
  including a 70ft bracketed tower. Special cases go higher One 
  subdivision just approved $5500 for a freestanding tower to serve their 30 
  homes in a small valley. We own all radio equipment.We clear our 
  equipment and supplies cost for any new install from the install fee. 
  Sometimes, when we 'recycle' a radio, we even make money on an install, but we 
  don't plan on it. The labor part of the install is covered by the first 
  month or so's fees.We allow self install if the customer buys his own 
  equipment. No setup charges for self install but unit must be approved 
  prior to install and must meet our snr requirements.We no longer try 
  to compete head-to-head with the cable or telephone companies. They can 
  have the $15 per month bottom feeders. There is way too much churn in 
  those markets for us.Another thing that helps us is that we are more 
  than an ISP. We are a full service computer shop as well. When our 
  customer calls in with a problem, and the radio gear checks out, we don't pass 
  them off as a problem in your computer, we hand the call to our computer tech 
  who can usually diagnose the problem over the phone. If we go out and 
  the problem is in the computer, not our radio equipment, we waive the service 
  call charge if the customer has our shop fix the computer, and we will pick it 
  up for free since we are there.We credit a new customers first months 
  service charge as a discount to the referring customer. We 
  started out getting 4-5 calls a month for new service. We now get 5-7 a 
  WEEK. All word of mouth. Make friends with the real estate 
  agents. Give them flyers to give to their clients. Work hard to 
  get the local, small businesses as clients. They will give you all the 
  free, word of mouth advertising you can use. They will also let pass out 
  your flyers to their customersIt works for us We now 
  offer service anywhere in our county. We built our network with our own 
  private funds. No government handouts. We are profitable, and have 
  less than $10K in debt. We will retire that debt this 
  year.Mark Nash wrote:
  Doesn't it depend on your customer base?  Did we hear that this is a smalltown?  Your way of doing things is like mine.  Show value and provide a good
service and you will have very little churn in your customers.  There are anumber of small towns (1k-4k population) that I service, but once we wentinto the larger town (200k), we would have to give it away, longer ROI on
the CPE, lower margin, etc.  And the customers are more snobby when they areused to being overserved by the larger companies (telco  cable).Being a small company, I have found that our initial focus is the best for
us: small towns  rural area.  We have a nice valley that(topographically-speaking) supports this well.  We are members of thechambers of commerce, our kids have played sports together, see each otherin the grocery store, etc.  I have even gone so far as to work with the
local hardware store to carry most of the general items that I use such asRJ45's, weatherproof tape, zip-ties, mounting screws  such.We charge $44.95 for a residential/mom  pop-type business with a $199
installation.  We give a $25 credit to an existing customer who refers a newcustomer to us, and that new customer gets $25 off of their installation feejust for being referred.  Works great.  No contract...provide a good service
and don't give people a reason to think about changing if they have achoice.This works for a small-town environment, but as I said, it all changes ifyou're going after a larger town/city/whatever.  Then it's harder to sell
your value at a higher price.  You can do it, it just takes more.I believe that without a significant amount of funding available up front,a WISP would be crazy to try to come

[WISPA] Re: CPE Cost Ideas Needed

2006-04-06 Thread Joshua M. Andrews



Cliff:

Thank you for the 
information. The areas of DSL are very spotty and cable is very 
inexpensive and unreliable. Many people are upset at both 
situations. DSL is offered for about $30 per month with purchase of a DSL 
"modem" at around $50 or so and a 1 year contract is required. Cable 
service rents you the modem for $10 per month and charges $40 per month for 
service on top of that ($50 per month total for those of you out there in other 
posts that think half-duplex is as good a full-duplex).

I'm shooting at 
offering 1.5 Mbps service at around $24.95 and offering VOIP for another $24.95 
if they so choose. So the competition hasn't a chance against me if I can 
get around that $350 CPE cost.

--


Tom:

I understand what 
you mean by offering a "free month" per year of service and how wireless 
year-long+ terms may not appeal compared to similar terms with a wired 
service. What does your company do to alleviate this problem? 
Thanks.

---


Peter:

Jeez, do you want me 
to provide you with my business plan!? ha-ha! I will continue to own 
the CPE and I'm shooting for a 1-3 term most likely. I could offer a 
priority guaranteed 24 hour turn around for example but at what price can I 
afford such a thing. My service is basically self-install. I'm using 
WaveRider 900 MHz and anybody within about 2 miles (for sure in my area) can do 
it on their own very easily. So "priority installation" is kind of a mute 
point. Any other ideas? Thanks!

---


Mac:

Thank you for your 
response. I'm not using Trango equipment and I know their prices are lower 
but that can't be really helped since I've chosen a different provider. 
Have you had much success with your $400 install costs on the 900 MHz? 
Thanks.

---


Pete:

Thank you for the 
detailed response. I appreciate you taking the time to comment. I 
don't want to be rude but I took a look at your website and it needs some work. 
:(
In any case, I think 
you have a point. Could you elaborate more on what you meant by going with 
a 802.11b AP/CPE. Do you mean you are shooting a signal out to an area 
using WaveRider and then distributing it via another 802.11b AP from 
there? I think your right about contracts and install fees and it sounds 
like your saying that I'm just going to have to eat the cost and extend my ROI 
per user. Thanks again.
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