RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-29 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Patrick,

Pardon my ignorance...I'm not an RF guy...but what do you mean by the
problem of the .16 MAC in UL bands?

Jeff

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times and
spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the myths.
FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has lots of
challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in UL bands. 

I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not have UL
WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your head and
really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially INVENTED this
stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been selling 802.16 PMP in
scale since summer 2004. We today have well over 50% of all WiMAX base
stations and clients sold into the market. You have to understand that if UL
WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have introduced it long ago when others were
trying to spell WiMAX. Fact is, it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready.
Anyone that buys it before the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.

I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?)

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?

Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon.
But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: Rich Comroe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than 
sensitivity.  At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the
20mbps 
Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances.

OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the 
10mbps Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly
higher 
C/Is).  OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can
operate 
with less signal than 20mbps Canopy.  And as you already expressed, with

17-25 dB or more, it runs much faster.

But you also neglect that with OFDM's multiple subchannels, it can
tolerate 
partial band interference whereas the DSSS system would just stop cold.

Aside from the above, I perceive you seem to appreciate the value of
time 
framed systems.  I sometimes get wrong who is advocating what in email

threads, so I appologize in advance if I've got this wrong.  I'm a great
fan 
of time framed systems myself.

It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system
would have performed?

I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom DeReggi
  To: WISPA General List
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Marlon,

  You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge
those
  definitions.
  However, I challenge the relevance of just about all your responses to
my
  comments.
  I recognize I may not have been super clear, but I was assuming the
reader
  would apply their knowledge of the definitions, to infer the relevance
of
  comments made.

  To be more clear

  OFDM is plagued by a larger SNR to operate adequately, compared to
DSSS.
  DSSS has been able to operate with minimum SNRs anywhere from 3db
(canopy)
  to 8db (trango).
  Actually that comment is not exactly true, Canopy's C/I is 3db (not 
minimum
  SNR required).
  OFDM gear typically wants to see a minimum of 17db SNR, and performs
  optimally with  25db SNR.
  I'm not aware that Wifi gear has worse C/I specs than non-Wifi gear,
based
  on it being Wifi (csma/ca).
  Wifi or TDD has nothing to do with Noise, Wifi  TDD has to do with
timing
  of transmissions.

  My point was that if you can't get over the noise, when using
modulations
  less able to get over the noise, you can help solve the problem by
  transmitting when the noise is not occuring.
  Contant time based transmission has little benefit, if it occurs
during a
  noisy time where that noise will kill the signal and results in packet

loss.
  I'd rather have increased latency, and try again, to prevent packet
loss.

   I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS
to be
   able to survive the noise, with better SNRs

   Meant... DSSS gets over noise

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-29 Thread Tom DeReggi

Patrick,

I do not challenge Alvarion's top role in Licensed WiMax.
I recognize it, as does most of the world.

But the truth is... Some companies have publically announced that they plan 
to deliver a 5.8Ghz unlicensed product (as their primary focus), and others 
have announced that they are NOT planning to.  Problems can be worked out, 
if they are worked on. If someone does not have a plan or desire to launch 
an unlicensed WiMax product, it is not likely that they will be working to 
fix unlicensed Wimax products.  This world is full of smart people, and 
those that put their minds to it, will likely make more progress than those 
that do not.


The plan that most manufacturers have, that plan to launch unlicensed Wimax, 
is to use WiMax chipsets, with their own proprietary MACs, so they can 
release better and working products sooner.
After all, the bigger goal is just to deliver a better radio, and maybe even 
accomplish a possible upgrade path to True Wimax Firmware, if desired.  How 
they will accomplish that, I feel is best left up to the clever radio 
designers, and I'll leave it at that for confidentiality courtesy.


My prediction that Trango will be the first to launch an unlicened WiMax 
product is based on the fact that they have the most vested interest in 
launching one.
They are currently without a next generation product, and they need its 
release. I'm not predicting it will initially be a certified compliant WiMax 
system. Trango currently has a quality MAC, and  positiones Trango as a 
likely candidate to successfully pull off a custom WiMax chipset product. 
Alvarion on the other hand has very little benefit of launching an 
unlicensed Wimax product when it already has a strong VL product line and a 
strong licensed 802.16e product line.


As far as your claim on the flawed UL Wimax standard I don't disagree. 
Every planned product in my mind is vapor, until it can be purchased, 
deployed, and tested by the operator.  This again being the big reason that 
I personally am so fond of Alvarion VL products recently re-marketed to 
WISPs, as a solution that can be deployed today, without risk or chance of 
empty promises.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:41 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times
and spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the
myths. FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has
lots of challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in UL
bands.

I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not have
UL WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your head
and really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially
INVENTED this stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been
selling 802.16 PMP in scale since summer 2004. We today have well over
50% of all WiMAX base stations and clients sold into the market. You
have to understand that if UL WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have
introduced it long ago when others were trying to spell WiMAX. Fact is,
it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. Anyone that buys it before
the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.

I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?)

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?


Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon.
But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Rich Comroe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than
sensitivity.  At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the
20mbps
Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances.

OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the
10mbps Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly
higher
C/Is).  OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can
operate
with less signal than 20mbps Canopy.  And as you already expressed, with

17-25 dB or more, it runs much faster.

But you also neglect that with OFDM's multiple subchannels, it can
tolerate
partial band interference whereas the DSSS system would just stop cold.

Aside

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-29 Thread Tom DeReggi

Yes, but

All I want is a better radio.

The Dream is... Wimax is interoperabilty certified to a standard.
The Reality is... Who can get me a better radio sooner.
(See previous Post)

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 10:53 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for
UL. I did not say in detail why (at least not in this post). For sure it
is because the MAC was developed for licensed (LMDS actually) -- that's
my point. It was never conceived of for UL.
---
Also, there IS a WiMAX UL standard -- the profile has been in place for
over a year. There just is not equipment and there has been no UL
certification yet. http://www.wimaxforum.org/kshowcase/view  The reason
has nothing to do with Europe (Alvarion's Mariana Goldhamer led the
harmonization between ETSI HiperMAN and IEEE 802.16 several years ago).
The main vendors in the Forum (the ones that really drive things) all
know the deal with UL and they are in no rush to deliver WiMAX in it's
current form onto the U.S. market. Also, the existing UL WiMAX profile
is for 802.16d-2004. The whole of the Forum is focusing on 802.16e-2005,
in fact, the entire WiMAX ecosystem you hear about it all relative to
802.16e-2005. Migrations from .16d-2005 to .16e-2005 are not software
type changes. All that combined with the non-UL MAC = folks will be
sorry for sinking CAPEX into certain UL WiMAX. Buyer beware and know
the deal.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Comroe
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Can't argue with a manufacturer actually participating heavily in the
WiMAX process. But I respectfully disagree here a bit.


Fact is,
it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready.


IMHO It ain't ready because licensed MMDS replacement was the original
802.16 plan.  Thoughts of UL had been introduced fairly late in the
game.


Anyone that buys it before
the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.


Anyone manufacturer who builds an UL solution which is WiMAX like
pre-standard is no worse than with any other proprietary solution ...
except that there is always hope of a firmware upgrade to standard at
some future date if the hardware is WiMAX.  I dunno ... I think the
reason there is no UL WiMAX like standard is because Europe dropped the
ball with HyperLAN2.  It was standardized years ago by ETSI, it was UL
5GHz targetted (RLAN bands), but the involved carriers and manufacturers
all nearly bankrupted themselves over 3G development  licensing.
(Maybe, maybe not)  For whatever reason it unraveled and IEEE 802.16
originally didn't had UL as a primary target (licensed MMDS replacement
IIRC).

Didn't any European manufacturer field any HyperLAN2 products (or
prototypes) which could be trialed in US 5GHz UNII band?  Sigh...

Rich
 - Original Message - 
 From: Patrick Leary

 To: WISPA General List
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:41 PM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times
 and spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the
 myths. FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has
 lots of challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in
UL
 bands.

 I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not
have
 UL WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your
head
 and really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially
 INVENTED this stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been
 selling 802.16 PMP in scale since summer 2004. We today have well over
 50% of all WiMAX base stations and clients sold into the market. You
 have to understand that if UL WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have
 introduced it long ago when others were trying to spell WiMAX. Fact
is,
 it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. Anyone that buys it
before
 the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.

 I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?)

 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?

 Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon.
 But 5.8G, yes, I think

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-29 Thread Marketing
I figured you would probably use them all before the nuts would arrive...

The UM's and UML's needed to be re-tooled due to the fact that after so many
parts, tooling needs to be replaced.  We went with the stamped bases due to
the fact that the overall consistency is better on the parts and are as
strong or stronger.

Happy New Year!

Regards,
Ben Moore
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 1:55 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Thanks for the offer Ben.

But we'll have all of these units out in the field long before you can get a

box of nuts to me!

If it REALLY bothers me, I'll just run down to the local hardware store and 
buy my own nuts.  grin

It's MUCH more fun to pick on you guys once in a while though.  evil grin

Say, I have a question for you.  When and why did you move from the welded 
to the stamped base plates for the Sat. arms?  I'd guess that they are a bit

cheaper to make, but the material seems thinner.  Are they as strong?

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Marketing [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 George,

 We are definitely listening.  This will be changed going forward.  If you
 need some additional flange nuts (7/16), let me know.  Same goes for you
 Marlon.

 Regards,
 Ben

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of George Rogato
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:31 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
 Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of
 Alvarion I do have to side with him on this.  I just called Ben Moore at
 PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me.
 They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things.  Now I have to
 carry FOUR tools up the ladder.

 Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm?  Those are the same size  People
 have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep
 screwing with.

 If there's a standard out there, please stick with it.  We have enough
 things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange
 default username/password combos!

 BINGO, we found this out yesterday and hope that this is a temporary 
 thing.

 Hope fully Ben is reading this.. Not a good thing to change.

 George

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-28 Thread Tom DeReggi

There is some truth to Brad's point.
With Trango, we knew exactly how much bandwidth would be available, and it 
met the requirement for business grade CIR.
If we didn't get that, then it was a broke link needing repair, which was 
likely to be accomplishable.
The problem is our business model was limited to 10 mbps. What do you do 
when you scale past that?
When we use Alvarion, we don't design using it for 30mbps of CIR capacity in 
mind. It can't deliver that.
But it very well may deliver 24 mbps of MIR traffic, and 10mbps of CIR 
traffic without a doubt. Or 16mbps of MIR traffic in half the spectrum.  We 
just change our offering to sell MIR traffic, and the customers that need 
CIR, buy more capacity than they need to guarantee the headroom to meet 
their need.  We no longer try to guarantee finite exact amounts of 
bandwdith. Instead we deliver better value and an improved experience.  If 
50% of the time you can tranfer twice as fast, thats an improved experience.


I as well share the view that all radios should come stock with Dual 
Polarity, and to this day, I do not understand why so many vendors have not 
yet seen the light.
But the fact is, they don't. So we need to make choices. And 5 years into 
this industry it frustrates me to have to make hard choices. When 10mbps was 
good enough for me, it was clear as day to pick a Dual Polarity TDD radio. 
But when greater than 10mbps is needed, its not so clear anymore.  Does one 
sacrifice needed capacity, for greater options to stear from interference? 
I'm not answering that question, its up to the WISP to answer for himself, 
and how confident they are that they will likely need or not need to stear 
around interference.  As more customers are taken on, more bandwdith is 
needed. And as more competitors come to town, more bandwdith is needed.  And 
the WISP that picks up more of the customers sooner, gets more of them, and 
starts paying off their gear sooner, to allow them to have the price 
advantage long term as their competitors become stronger.  Sure I can add 
more downtilt, and deploy more cell sites, but that cost more money and 
requires paying more landlords, instead of put money in my pocket, or 
increase the reoccurring value of my assets.  Money given to a landlord, is 
a pure cost, with no reoccurring value earned after the month is over.  Its 
not a matter of whats best, that battle is not possible to win.  The 
situation here is, there is a specific need, and Alvarion is comming back 
with an answer to that need, and its available bug-free and proven, TODAY.


Alvarion offers.. a low cost CPE, a quality high gain antenna that meets 90% 
of the install needs in one product, improves installation time and cost, 
allows higher speeds most of the time, and maximizes its effectiveness by 
adding many advanced features (See Patrick's posts).  This answer is not for 
everyone, but its a heck of a value proposition for many.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 6:41 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Hello Rich,

Exactly my point and exactly why users operating in the unlicensed spectrum
need as many tools available at their disposal as possible.  My criticism
and suggestions have been to illuminate just those features as extremely
valuable to guys like me that sell CIR not MIR.

Frankly the DP  DB features should be extremely valuable to any unlicensed
operator regardless of the business plan.  How can it be that greater
flexibility as I have described isn't going to better a product?

Just like many believe ATPC should be mandatory on all future unlicensed
products I believe DP  DB should be mandatory!  Not going to happen, but
the products that do offer these features will be superior in their
abilities to avoid and/or work around interference.

Best,


Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Comroe
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:56 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

There's no unlicensed product which guarantees business class services in
interference.  To suggest product A does and product B doesn't is nonsense.
I think you've done a good job of describing why you think some products do
a better job of than others.  That's fair.  Sharing experiences where one
product did better than another is fair.  I love reading your posts and
others comparing the attributes which impact on this.  It's educational and
I get insights into equipment that I haven't personally had direct
experience.  But the constant bashing that some product will guarantee
business class services in interference and another won't is tiresome, and
just turns people off from the good content that people appreciate.

Rich
 - Original

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-28 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

Thanks for the offer Ben.

But we'll have all of these units out in the field long before you can get a 
box of nuts to me!


If it REALLY bothers me, I'll just run down to the local hardware store and 
buy my own nuts.  grin


It's MUCH more fun to pick on you guys once in a while though.  evil grin

Say, I have a question for you.  When and why did you move from the welded 
to the stamped base plates for the Sat. arms?  I'd guess that they are a bit 
cheaper to make, but the material seems thinner.  Are they as strong?


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Marketing [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:08 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



George,

We are definitely listening.  This will be changed going forward.  If you
need some additional flange nuts (7/16), let me know.  Same goes for you
Marlon.

Regards,
Ben

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:31 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of
Alvarion I do have to side with him on this.  I just called Ben Moore at
PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me.
They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things.  Now I have to
carry FOUR tools up the ladder.

Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm?  Those are the same size  People
have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep
screwing with.

If there's a standard out there, please stick with it.  We have enough
things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange
default username/password combos!


BINGO, we found this out yesterday and hope that this is a temporary 
thing.


Hope fully Ben is reading this.. Not a good thing to change.

George

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regarding interference - Part 1

2006-12-28 Thread Charles Wu
I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has
gone...wow

So, my 2 cents...

One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a
system's interference robustness.  However, before we can get into further
detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc --
it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad
and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone.  Heck, all radios in
the market have some sort of interference robustness / avoidance
capability -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing
what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle.  Read on...I'll
talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part
2 =)



WHAT IS INTERERENCE?

In the wireless world, interference, by definition, is a situation where
unwanted radio signals operate in the same frequency channels or bands –
i.e. they mutually “interfere,” disrupt or add to the overall noise level in
the intended transmission.

Interference can be divided into two forms, based on whether it comes from
your own network(s) or from an outside source.  If the interfering RF
signals emanate from a network under your control, whether it is on the same
tower or several miles away, it is termed “self-interference.”  If the
opposing signals come from a network, device or other source that is not
under your control, it is termed “outside interference.”  Thus, the
definition of what type of interference is being combated is not based on
technology, but ownership.

In licensed bands, where spectrum is relatively scarce (due to high costs)
self-interference alone must be taken into account; however given a more or
less known operating environment (the radio spectrum will only have signals
transmitting that are under control by a single entity) proper product
design and network deployment can reduce these interferes to a level where
they do not impact network performance.

Self-interference is not a phenomenon that is confined to licensed band
operations; license-exempt bands must address the same issues.  The
techniques and design elements of a given product that serve to reduce and
tame self-interference in licensed band operations can be applied directly
to license-exempt systems. 

THE LICENSE-EXEMPT CHALLENGE OF INTERFERENCE

In the license-exempt bands, not only must self-interference be accounted
for, but, given the nature of the regulations governing these bands,
external interference must be designed for as well.  This can be extremely
challenging, as there is no way of knowing in advance where these outside
signals may be or will be sourced from, or even how strong the interfering
transmissions will be relative to the desired transmission.  This aspect of
the license-exempt bands represents the possible “downside” of
license-exempt network operation.

Yet as potentially damaging and unpredictable as external interference can
be in license-exempt networks, a properly designed and implemented broadband
wireless system can make a significant difference in the performance of a
network under siege from unwanted external radio transmissions.

DEALING WITH COCHANNEL INTERFERENCE: PHY LAYER

1. Modulation  the C/I Ratio

At the most fundamental level, an interfering RF source disrupts the digital
transmission by making it too difficult for the receiving station to
“decode” the signal.  How much noise or interference a digital RF
transmission can tolerate depends on the modulation used.

Fundamentally, modulation is the method whereby zeros and ones are
communicated by varying one of three aspects of radio signal.  The three
portions of an RF signal that can be changed or modulated are phase,
frequency and amplitude.  Shirting the properties of any of these parameters
can be used to communicate different “states.”  These states, in turn, are
translated to zeros and ones for binary communications.

For example, with frequency modulation, if the sine wave is at frequency
one, it is decoded as a zero.  If the sine wave is shifted slightly to
frequency two, this is decoded as a one.  This type of modulation is
referred to as Binary Frequency Shift Keying (BFSK).  In this example, a
system must only be able to tell the difference between one of two states or
phases.  More complex modulations, such as 16 QAM (Quadrature Amplitude
Modulation), attempt to differentiate among 16 different possible states of
an incoming signal.

The advantage to higher order modulation schemes, like 16QAM, is that
compared to BPSK, 16QAM conveys more information per bandwidth (more
bits/Hz).  The disadvantage of 16QAM lies in the fact that, in order to
distinguish among the 16 different states, the signal must be very clean and
very strong relative to background noise and/or interference.

The ability of a receiving station to decode an incoming signal at the most
basic physical layer is dependent on a factor called the “carrier to

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-28 Thread Tom DeReggi

Marlon,

You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge those 
definitions.
However, I challenge the relevance of just about all your responses to my 
comments.
I recognize I may not have been super clear, but I was assuming the reader 
would apply their knowledge of the definitions, to infer the relevance of 
comments made.


To be more clear

OFDM is plagued by a larger SNR to operate adequately, compared to DSSS.
DSSS has been able to operate with minimum SNRs anywhere from 3db (canopy) 
to 8db (trango).
Actually that comment is not exactly true, Canopy's C/I is 3db (not minimum 
SNR required).
OFDM gear typically wants to see a minimum of 17db SNR, and performs 
optimally with  25db SNR.
I'm not aware that Wifi gear has worse C/I specs than non-Wifi gear, based 
on it being Wifi (csma/ca).
Wifi or TDD has nothing to do with Noise, Wifi  TDD has to do with timing 
of transmissions.


My point was that if you can't get over the noise, when using modulations 
less able to get over the noise, you can help solve the problem by 
transmitting when the noise is not occuring.
Contant time based transmission has little benefit, if it occurs during a 
noisy time where that noise will kill the signal and results in packet loss. 
I'd rather have increased latency, and try again, to prevent packet loss.


I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be 
able to survive the noise, with better SNRs


Meant... DSSS gets over noise better than OFDM, and I like TDD gear when 
the gear can survive the noise floor, and DSSS gear is more likely to 
survive the noise floor, and well matched with TDD.


If using OFDM, requiring larger SNR, harder to accomplish in high noise 
environements, a non-TDD based scheduling MAC such as CSMA/CA can improve 
overall end to end performance and reduce packet loss.


A lost packet, end to end across a session, takes up WAY more bandwdith and 
has a penalty of WAY more LAtency, than hiding the packet loss from the 
session, and re-transmitting the loss at the specific link that the packet 
loss occured.


The point I am making is that so many people judge performance by Link 
performance, which means nothing in terms of the performance that the end 
user experiences end to end.  End USer Performance is about preventing and 
minimizing packet loss.


A perfect exmaple was a link that I had to rebuild today.  I tried to pull 
off a ofdm 900 Mhz link. I have a registered noise floor of -85, and an 
average signal of -55, but I had to pull out the link, because end to end, 
the best I could accomplish was 5-10% packet loss. The reason is that 
sporatic paging noise peaked loud enough to interfere with my signal 
(although not seen with cheap limited wifi built-in noise detection).  I was 
able to do a radio to radio throughout test of almost 10 mbps.  But thats 
not what the end user saw, trying to type in his remote office application. 
More like 30 seconds to see his characters show up on the screen after he 
typed them.  But web browsing appeared OK. This particular case it 
demonstrates the harm of packet loss, allthough limited in relevance as it 
was a OFDM CSMA/CA link.   Trango 900 DSSS w/ nosie compression built-in and 
ARQ, would have likely solved the problem.  But thats because of DSSS's 
noise resilience, Trango compression (noise filtering) and ARQ, not because 
of its TDD spec.   It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system 
would have performed? I can test it, because one doesn't exist, atleast not 
that I own.  But I bet it would perform pretty poorly.  I believe the 
CSMA/CA was the saving grace that allowed the link to be tolerable at all 
(web browsing), with the random packet loss.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


oh oh.  This one's gonna be fun.  I'll warn ya now Tom, this is nothing 
personal.


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



marlon,

I have to disagree, and state the opposite.
I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be 
able to survive the noise, with better SNRs.


OK, there's a problem here.  Lets make sure we're talking the same 
acronyms and such.


TDD = Time Division Duplex.  In our case, this part really doesn't mean 
much of anything

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-28 Thread Tom DeReggi

Marlon,

I will add... I made one error

I said if interference was from other OFDM.
I meant to say, if interference was from other CSMA/CA.

CSMA/CA is better apt to survive interference from other CSMA/CA gear, than 
TDD is.
In other words, retransmitting is likely going to find free spectrum, since 
CSMA/CA does not always transmit.
If interference is from a TDD device, CSMA/CA ability to retransmit is 
likely going to just re-get interference.


I recognize, TDD w/ARQ, has best features from both worlds, which I've been 
a strong advocate of.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


oh oh.  This one's gonna be fun.  I'll warn ya now Tom, this is nothing 
personal.


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



marlon,

I have to disagree, and state the opposite.
I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be 
able to survive the noise, with better SNRs.


OK, there's a problem here.  Lets make sure we're talking the same 
acronyms and such.


TDD = Time Division Duplex.  In our case, this part really doesn't mean 
much of anything.

DSSS = Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum,
SNR = Signal to Noise Ratio.  This is the one that you fine tune on a CB 
radio to get the his to go away.


For these and many more kindly take advantage of work I did years ago:
http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/definitions.htm


The problem occurs when DSSS is not enough to get above the noise.


This is a problem when using DSSS, FHSS, OFDM, FM or any other modulation 
scheme we're using today.



 When the noise is other OFDM


OFDM is NOT DSSS or FHSS.  It's Orthogonal Frequency Division 
Multiplexing. I totally don't know what that is but I want it!  roflol



or Wifi contention gear,


WiFi is an interoperability standard based on IEEE standards.  Today WiFi 
can be either DSSS or OFDM, I'm not aware of any WiFi FHSS product. 
802.11b is DSS, 802.11a and g are OFDM.


possibly louder than your own signal, using CSMA/CA actually performs 
much better in the severe interference environments.


Define better.  No, I'm not trying to pull a Clinton here.  If you want to 
compare DSS to FHSS then, yes in certain types of noisy conditions, DSS 
can overcome the noise by spreading it's data packets over a larger area. 
It's able to rebuild damaged data packets or to just ignore some times of 
noise that would cause an FHSS signal to back off and retransmit on a 
different freqency, causing a rise in latency and a drop in speed.


A DSSS signal spreads the data over (in the WiFi example you site) 22 MHz 
of spectrum.  An FHSS signal spreads that same data over 1 MHz, but it 
hops around interference.


I remember seeing a couple of graphs years ago.  They showed an ever 
increasing noise level and it's impact on DSSS and FHSS.  The DSSS stayed 
at or near full speed longer than the FHSS but once the noise got too high 
it totally dropped off line.


The FHSS system, on the other hand, showed the noise as an overall 
slowdown but kept on going long after that DSSS system rolled over and wet 
on it's self.  I'm hearing mixed results about OFDM.  Some say it works 
better yet in interference, some say it dies much sooner.  I really don't 
know.  It would be nice to see someone run all three systems in a lab so 
we could see the same tests.  In fact it would be fun to see that same 
test with several proprietary systems too.  If only I had more time and 
money!  That's exactly the kind of tinkering that I live for!


The reason is TDD is guaranteed to transmit during the noisy period, some 
percentage of time.


Nope.  Not true at all.  Been there, done that.  I have more than one 
T-shirt.  It TOTALLY depends on the type of noise and it's levels in 
relation to your carrier to interference ratios (also known as SNR).


If you have narrow band interference DSSS can (and OFDM should) work 
around it.  It'll be able to recreate the missing data bits and deliver a 
good data packet.  Or, if the noise is far enough off of the center 
frequency (the middle part of the 22 MHz wide channel) it'll likely just 
completely ignore the noise.  Lets say, for example that you are running a 
WiFi based system and your customers radio is hitting your AP in the B 
mode with a -65 signal. WiFi radios need around

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regardinginterference - Part 1

2006-12-28 Thread Tom DeReggi

Charles,

WOW! Great Post! That covers about everything.

It increases the understanding of the complexity, but it doesn't answer the 
ultimate question, What to use.


What we really want is an efficient OFDM system, with a strong TDD w/ARQ 
MAC, RFThreshold, Good Noise Filtering, Packet aggregating/compressing, 
adeqaute CPU processing, Quality narrow beam diversity antennas, all 
pre-packaged in a system/box under $300.  But that product does not exist 
today.


So why doesn't a manufacturer just make it, so we can stop debating what is 
best, and just deploy radios!


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:47 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - 
regardinginterference - Part 1



I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has
gone...wow

So, my 2 cents...

One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a
system's interference robustness.  However, before we can get into further
detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc --
it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad
and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone.  Heck, all radios in
the market have some sort of interference robustness / avoidance
capability -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing
what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle.  Read on...I'll
talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part
2 =)



WHAT IS INTERERENCE?

In the wireless world, interference, by definition, is a situation where
unwanted radio signals operate in the same frequency channels or bands -
i.e. they mutually interfere, disrupt or add to the overall noise level in
the intended transmission.

Interference can be divided into two forms, based on whether it comes from
your own network(s) or from an outside source.  If the interfering RF
signals emanate from a network under your control, whether it is on the same
tower or several miles away, it is termed self-interference.  If the
opposing signals come from a network, device or other source that is not
under your control, it is termed outside interference.  Thus, the
definition of what type of interference is being combated is not based on
technology, but ownership.

In licensed bands, where spectrum is relatively scarce (due to high costs)
self-interference alone must be taken into account; however given a more or
less known operating environment (the radio spectrum will only have signals
transmitting that are under control by a single entity) proper product
design and network deployment can reduce these interferes to a level where
they do not impact network performance.

Self-interference is not a phenomenon that is confined to licensed band
operations; license-exempt bands must address the same issues.  The
techniques and design elements of a given product that serve to reduce and
tame self-interference in licensed band operations can be applied directly
to license-exempt systems.

THE LICENSE-EXEMPT CHALLENGE OF INTERFERENCE

In the license-exempt bands, not only must self-interference be accounted
for, but, given the nature of the regulations governing these bands,
external interference must be designed for as well.  This can be extremely
challenging, as there is no way of knowing in advance where these outside
signals may be or will be sourced from, or even how strong the interfering
transmissions will be relative to the desired transmission.  This aspect of
the license-exempt bands represents the possible downside of
license-exempt network operation.

Yet as potentially damaging and unpredictable as external interference can
be in license-exempt networks, a properly designed and implemented broadband
wireless system can make a significant difference in the performance of a
network under siege from unwanted external radio transmissions.

DEALING WITH COCHANNEL INTERFERENCE: PHY LAYER

1. Modulation  the C/I Ratio

At the most fundamental level, an interfering RF source disrupts the digital
transmission by making it too difficult for the receiving station to
decode the signal.  How much noise or interference a digital RF
transmission can tolerate depends on the modulation used.

Fundamentally, modulation is the method whereby zeros and ones are
communicated by varying one of three aspects of radio signal.  The three
portions of an RF signal that can be changed or modulated are phase,
frequency and amplitude.  Shirting the properties of any of these parameters
can be used to communicate different states.  These states, in turn, are
translated to zeros and ones for binary communications.

For example, with frequency modulation, if the sine wave is at frequency
one, it is decoded as a zero.  If the sine wave is shifted slightly

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived -regardinginterference - Part 1

2006-12-28 Thread Brad Belton
lol...gotta love it!  I'd argue it doesn't have to be only $300 to sell.
I'd pay two or three times that for such a product.  

But honestly that isn't that much to ask as many products are already so
close...Alvarion VL being one of the closest, but still no cigar.  

I like what you said about developing Trango products and agree they are way
past due to leapfrog back to the front of the pack.  Oh those were the
days when Sunstream/Trango was the undisputed leader with the début of the
M5800 and then the M5830.  sigh  Maybe they can do it again!

Best,


Brad





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
-regardinginterference - Part 1

Charles,

WOW! Great Post! That covers about everything.

It increases the understanding of the complexity, but it doesn't answer the 
ultimate question, What to use.

What we really want is an efficient OFDM system, with a strong TDD w/ARQ 
MAC, RFThreshold, Good Noise Filtering, Packet aggregating/compressing, 
adeqaute CPU processing, Quality narrow beam diversity antennas, all 
pre-packaged in a system/box under $300.  But that product does not exist 
today.

So why doesn't a manufacturer just make it, so we can stop debating what is 
best, and just deploy radios!

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:47 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - 
regardinginterference - Part 1


I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has
gone...wow

So, my 2 cents...

One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a
system's interference robustness.  However, before we can get into further
detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc --
it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad
and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone.  Heck, all radios in
the market have some sort of interference robustness / avoidance
capability -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing
what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle.  Read on...I'll
talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part
2 =)



WHAT IS INTERERENCE?

In the wireless world, interference, by definition, is a situation where
unwanted radio signals operate in the same frequency channels or bands -
i.e. they mutually interfere, disrupt or add to the overall noise level in
the intended transmission.

Interference can be divided into two forms, based on whether it comes from
your own network(s) or from an outside source.  If the interfering RF
signals emanate from a network under your control, whether it is on the same
tower or several miles away, it is termed self-interference.  If the
opposing signals come from a network, device or other source that is not
under your control, it is termed outside interference.  Thus, the
definition of what type of interference is being combated is not based on
technology, but ownership.

In licensed bands, where spectrum is relatively scarce (due to high costs)
self-interference alone must be taken into account; however given a more or
less known operating environment (the radio spectrum will only have signals
transmitting that are under control by a single entity) proper product
design and network deployment can reduce these interferes to a level where
they do not impact network performance.

Self-interference is not a phenomenon that is confined to licensed band
operations; license-exempt bands must address the same issues.  The
techniques and design elements of a given product that serve to reduce and
tame self-interference in licensed band operations can be applied directly
to license-exempt systems.

THE LICENSE-EXEMPT CHALLENGE OF INTERFERENCE

In the license-exempt bands, not only must self-interference be accounted
for, but, given the nature of the regulations governing these bands,
external interference must be designed for as well.  This can be extremely
challenging, as there is no way of knowing in advance where these outside
signals may be or will be sourced from, or even how strong the interfering
transmissions will be relative to the desired transmission.  This aspect of
the license-exempt bands represents the possible downside of
license-exempt network operation.

Yet as potentially damaging and unpredictable as external interference can
be in license-exempt networks, a properly designed and implemented broadband
wireless system can make a significant difference in the performance of a
network under siege from unwanted external radio transmissions.

DEALING WITH COCHANNEL INTERFERENCE: PHY LAYER

1. Modulation  the C/I Ratio

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - regardinginterference - Part 1

2006-12-28 Thread Rich Comroe
Good stuff.  In the order presented, the text makes some statements about RX 
threshold damping.

It is a powerful tool for a higher
modulation radio operating in a noisy environment, as it allows the radio to
block out and ignore signals received below the preset RF Rx Threshold.

 By creating an artificial receiver threshold below which no RF signals are
processed, the Receiver Threshold Dampening allows for the rejection of
distance interferences and reduces co-location interference at the expense
of a reduced coverage radius.

The text above immediately follows the excellent section on C/I.  Presenting in 
this order I felt the text might somehow imply that by setting the threshold 
higher than the interfering signals, that the receiver can ignore the 
interference (it says this in so many words).  If we're talking about the 
Carrier-to-Interference required above the surrounding interference it's giving 
you the wrong impression.  That would be incorrect, and since it immediately 
followed the section on C/I I thought I could improve a bit here.  You still 
need every inch of the required C/I above the interference.  All that is being 
ignored is the receiver's energy detection (and whatever impact it may cause in 
the MAC's channel access algorithm) from reacting to receive energy below the 
threshold.  The interference energy is still there, and additive with desired 
received signal.  Another way of looking at this is that you need the same 
margin above the receiver noise threshold as you need above the interference 
(you still need both SNR and C/I).

In my book this is not interference rejection at all.  You need the same amount 
of required SNR above sensitivity and C/I above interference, but the technique 
can be useful in masking far-away weaker signals from screwing up your channel 
access if you were using something like CSMA.

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Charles Wu 
  To: 'WISPA General List' 
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 3:47 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - 
regardinginterference - Part 1


  I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has
  gone...wow

  So, my 2 cents...

  One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a
  system's interference robustness.  However, before we can get into further
  detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc --
  it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad
  and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone.  Heck, all radios in
  the market have some sort of interference robustness / avoidance
  capability -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing
  what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle.  Read on...I'll
  talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part
  2 =)



  WHAT IS INTERERENCE?

  In the wireless world, interference, by definition, is a situation where
  unwanted radio signals operate in the same frequency channels or bands -
  i.e. they mutually interfere, disrupt or add to the overall noise level in
  the intended transmission.

  Interference can be divided into two forms, based on whether it comes from
  your own network(s) or from an outside source.  If the interfering RF
  signals emanate from a network under your control, whether it is on the same
  tower or several miles away, it is termed self-interference.  If the
  opposing signals come from a network, device or other source that is not
  under your control, it is termed outside interference.  Thus, the
  definition of what type of interference is being combated is not based on
  technology, but ownership.

  In licensed bands, where spectrum is relatively scarce (due to high costs)
  self-interference alone must be taken into account; however given a more or
  less known operating environment (the radio spectrum will only have signals
  transmitting that are under control by a single entity) proper product
  design and network deployment can reduce these interferes to a level where
  they do not impact network performance.

  Self-interference is not a phenomenon that is confined to licensed band
  operations; license-exempt bands must address the same issues.  The
  techniques and design elements of a given product that serve to reduce and
  tame self-interference in licensed band operations can be applied directly
  to license-exempt systems. 

  THE LICENSE-EXEMPT CHALLENGE OF INTERFERENCE

  In the license-exempt bands, not only must self-interference be accounted
  for, but, given the nature of the regulations governing these bands,
  external interference must be designed for as well.  This can be extremely
  challenging, as there is no way of knowing in advance where these outside
  signals may be or will be sourced from, or even how strong the interfering
  transmissions will be relative to the desired transmission.  This aspect

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-28 Thread Rich Comroe
Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than 
sensitivity.  At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the 20mbps 
Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances.

OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the 10mbps 
Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly higher C/Is).  
OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can operate with less 
signal than 20mbps Canopy.  And as you already expressed, with 17-25 dB or 
more, it runs much faster.

But you also neglect that with OFDM's multiple subchannels, it can tolerate 
partial band interference whereas the DSSS system would just stop cold.

Aside from the above, I perceive you seem to appreciate the value of time 
framed systems.  I sometimes get wrong who is advocating what in email 
threads, so I appologize in advance if I've got this wrong.  I'm a great fan of 
time framed systems myself.

It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system 
would have performed?

I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom DeReggi 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Marlon,

  You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge those 
  definitions.
  However, I challenge the relevance of just about all your responses to my 
  comments.
  I recognize I may not have been super clear, but I was assuming the reader 
  would apply their knowledge of the definitions, to infer the relevance of 
  comments made.

  To be more clear

  OFDM is plagued by a larger SNR to operate adequately, compared to DSSS.
  DSSS has been able to operate with minimum SNRs anywhere from 3db (canopy) 
  to 8db (trango).
  Actually that comment is not exactly true, Canopy's C/I is 3db (not minimum 
  SNR required).
  OFDM gear typically wants to see a minimum of 17db SNR, and performs 
  optimally with  25db SNR.
  I'm not aware that Wifi gear has worse C/I specs than non-Wifi gear, based 
  on it being Wifi (csma/ca).
  Wifi or TDD has nothing to do with Noise, Wifi  TDD has to do with timing 
  of transmissions.

  My point was that if you can't get over the noise, when using modulations 
  less able to get over the noise, you can help solve the problem by 
  transmitting when the noise is not occuring.
  Contant time based transmission has little benefit, if it occurs during a 
  noisy time where that noise will kill the signal and results in packet loss. 
  I'd rather have increased latency, and try again, to prevent packet loss.

   I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be 
   able to survive the noise, with better SNRs

   Meant... DSSS gets over noise better than OFDM, and I like TDD gear when 
  the gear can survive the noise floor, and DSSS gear is more likely to 
  survive the noise floor, and well matched with TDD.

  If using OFDM, requiring larger SNR, harder to accomplish in high noise 
  environements, a non-TDD based scheduling MAC such as CSMA/CA can improve 
  overall end to end performance and reduce packet loss.

  A lost packet, end to end across a session, takes up WAY more bandwdith and 
  has a penalty of WAY more LAtency, than hiding the packet loss from the 
  session, and re-transmitting the loss at the specific link that the packet 
  loss occured.

  The point I am making is that so many people judge performance by Link 
  performance, which means nothing in terms of the performance that the end 
  user experiences end to end.  End USer Performance is about preventing and 
  minimizing packet loss.

  A perfect exmaple was a link that I had to rebuild today.  I tried to pull 
  off a ofdm 900 Mhz link. I have a registered noise floor of -85, and an 
  average signal of -55, but I had to pull out the link, because end to end, 
  the best I could accomplish was 5-10% packet loss. The reason is that 
  sporatic paging noise peaked loud enough to interfere with my signal 
  (although not seen with cheap limited wifi built-in noise detection).  I was 
  able to do a radio to radio throughout test of almost 10 mbps.  But thats 
  not what the end user saw, trying to type in his remote office application. 
  More like 30 seconds to see his characters show up on the screen after he 
  typed them.  But web browsing appeared OK. This particular case it 
  demonstrates the harm of packet loss, allthough limited in relevance as it 
  was a OFDM CSMA/CA link.   Trango 900 DSSS w/ nosie compression built-in and 
  ARQ, would have likely solved the problem.  But thats because of DSSS's 
  noise resilience, Trango compression (noise filtering) and ARQ, not because 
  of its TDD spec.   It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system 
  would have performed? I can test it, because one doesn't exist, atleast not 
  that I own.  But I bet it would perform pretty

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived-regardinginterference - Part 1

2006-12-28 Thread Rich Comroe
Again, I think they're already being made, aren't they? for 3.5GHz.  Doesn't 
have to be final WiMAX ... I presume that all the pre-WiMAX products are OFDM 
and TDD.  I've yet to hear of one at 900, 2.4, or 5.  Anyone?  Am I all wet on 
what the pre-WiMAX products are?  I could very well be all wet, as I am only 
talking from what I've picked up from reading here ... and I've not had any 
first-hand experience with real available pre-WiMAX gear that's out there.  
Alvarion's got pre-WiMAX gear ... maybe Patrick can confirm, or alternatively 
slap me back to reality!   :-)

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brad Belton 
  To: 'WISPA General List' 
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:16 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have 
arrived-regardinginterference - Part 1


  lol...gotta love it!  I'd argue it doesn't have to be only $300 to sell.
  I'd pay two or three times that for such a product.  

  But honestly that isn't that much to ask as many products are already so
  close...Alvarion VL being one of the closest, but still no cigar.  

  I like what you said about developing Trango products and agree they are way
  past due to leapfrog back to the front of the pack.  Oh those were the
  days when Sunstream/Trango was the undisputed leader with the début of the
  M5800 and then the M5830.  sigh  Maybe they can do it again!

  Best,


  Brad





  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
  -regardinginterference - Part 1

  Charles,

  WOW! Great Post! That covers about everything.

  It increases the understanding of the complexity, but it doesn't answer the 
  ultimate question, What to use.

  What we really want is an efficient OFDM system, with a strong TDD w/ARQ 
  MAC, RFThreshold, Good Noise Filtering, Packet aggregating/compressing, 
  adeqaute CPU processing, Quality narrow beam diversity antennas, all 
  pre-packaged in a system/box under $300.  But that product does not exist 
  today.

  So why doesn't a manufacturer just make it, so we can stop debating what is 
  best, and just deploy radios!

  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message - 
  From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:47 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - 
  regardinginterference - Part 1


  I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has
  gone...wow

  So, my 2 cents...

  One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a
  system's interference robustness.  However, before we can get into further
  detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc --
  it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad
  and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone.  Heck, all radios in
  the market have some sort of interference robustness / avoidance
  capability -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing
  what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle.  Read on...I'll
  talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part
  2 =)



  WHAT IS INTERERENCE?

  In the wireless world, interference, by definition, is a situation where
  unwanted radio signals operate in the same frequency channels or bands -
  i.e. they mutually interfere, disrupt or add to the overall noise level in
  the intended transmission.

  Interference can be divided into two forms, based on whether it comes from
  your own network(s) or from an outside source.  If the interfering RF
  signals emanate from a network under your control, whether it is on the same
  tower or several miles away, it is termed self-interference.  If the
  opposing signals come from a network, device or other source that is not
  under your control, it is termed outside interference.  Thus, the
  definition of what type of interference is being combated is not based on
  technology, but ownership.

  In licensed bands, where spectrum is relatively scarce (due to high costs)
  self-interference alone must be taken into account; however given a more or
  less known operating environment (the radio spectrum will only have signals
  transmitting that are under control by a single entity) proper product
  design and network deployment can reduce these interferes to a level where
  they do not impact network performance.

  Self-interference is not a phenomenon that is confined to licensed band
  operations; license-exempt bands must address the same issues.  The
  techniques and design elements of a given product that serve to reduce and
  tame self-interference in licensed band operations can be applied directly
  to license-exempt systems

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived-regardinginterference - Part 1

2006-12-28 Thread Tom DeReggi
It was a lot more fun back then, being on the Trango side. When 
Sunstream/Trango was the undisputed leader, it was easy to win a debate.
Its not so easy and clear anymore.  Every player is a winner and a loser 
from some perspective.



Maybe they can do it again!


I don't doubt that they can do it again. They are my first pick predicted to 
deliver the first true 5.8G WiMax class product usable in the US at the 
right price point for WISPs.  The question is whether, they'll do it again 
soon enough.  First half of 2007, can mean a lot of things. By Summer, I 
could have half my network/revenue converted to Alvarion, and be to late to 
change course.   But then again, first half of 2007 could mean February, 
which could be a different situation.


The only downside I saw in the new planned Trango product was it was limited 
to 10Mhz channels. I liked the options for 10Mhz, but I didn't like it 
mandatory.
10Mhz requirement most likely would result in replacing existing gear with 
gear that delivered near the same capacity after all considered.  So where 
it would be the best choice for new sectors, it would not necessarilly 
justify change of sector. My contracts are per antenna, not per spectrum 
channel. I'm now going back trying to renegotiate my agreements to handle 
more antennas for the same price, but thats not easy to do.  The idea was to 
pay top dollar upfront, and make my money when I put high speed gear and 
more customers on net, WITHOUT increasing my colocation fees.
If my colocation fees increase, to add more antennas, I don't become more 
profitable by deploying the gear.  Its simple math.  But then again, if I 
can successfully renogiate my leases, it could be a blessing, allowing me to 
build in redundant sectors, a legacy Trango feature and design to our 
network that I was never able to take advantage of due to lack of spectrum.


But truthfully, the real winner is going to be the manufactuer that delivers 
legal compliant 5.4Ghz.into their platform. It will be nice to have virgin 
spectrum again like 5 years ago. (even if limited to 1 watt). 5.4Ghz is 
where staying 20Mhz is a logical choice. Its going to be hard to get that 
25db SNR with 1 watt radios, but the idea would be use all the short range 
links with 5.4, and all the long range links with 5.8. If I had to start 
using a whole new platform (not downword compatible), paying for duplicate 
antennas, why not do it with 5.4G under that model, and maximize the use of 
all available resourses?  It would make a more logical migration plan.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:16 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have 
arrived-regardinginterference - Part 1



lol...gotta love it!  I'd argue it doesn't have to be only $300 to sell.
I'd pay two or three times that for such a product.

But honestly that isn't that much to ask as many products are already so
close...Alvarion VL being one of the closest, but still no cigar.

I like what you said about developing Trango products and agree they are way
past due to leapfrog back to the front of the pack.  Oh those were the
days when Sunstream/Trango was the undisputed leader with the début of the
M5800 and then the M5830.  sigh  Maybe they can do it again!

Best,


Brad





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
-regardinginterference - Part 1

Charles,

WOW! Great Post! That covers about everything.

It increases the understanding of the complexity, but it doesn't answer the
ultimate question, What to use.

What we really want is an efficient OFDM system, with a strong TDD w/ARQ
MAC, RFThreshold, Good Noise Filtering, Packet aggregating/compressing,
adeqaute CPU processing, Quality narrow beam diversity antennas, all
pre-packaged in a system/box under $300.  But that product does not exist
today.

So why doesn't a manufacturer just make it, so we can stop debating what is
best, and just deploy radios!

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:47 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived -
regardinginterference - Part 1


I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has
gone...wow

So, my 2 cents...

One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a
system's interference robustness.  However, before we can get into further
detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc --
it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-28 Thread Tom DeReggi

I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?


Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon.
But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Rich Comroe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than 
sensitivity.  At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the 20mbps 
Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances.


OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the 
10mbps Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly higher 
C/Is).  OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can operate 
with less signal than 20mbps Canopy.  And as you already expressed, with 
17-25 dB or more, it runs much faster.


But you also neglect that with OFDM's multiple subchannels, it can tolerate 
partial band interference whereas the DSSS system would just stop cold.


Aside from the above, I perceive you seem to appreciate the value of time 
framed systems.  I sometimes get wrong who is advocating what in email 
threads, so I appologize in advance if I've got this wrong.  I'm a great fan 
of time framed systems myself.



It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system
would have performed?


I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?

Rich
 - Original Message - 
 From: Tom DeReggi

 To: WISPA General List
 Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:56 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Marlon,

 You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge those
 definitions.
 However, I challenge the relevance of just about all your responses to my
 comments.
 I recognize I may not have been super clear, but I was assuming the reader
 would apply their knowledge of the definitions, to infer the relevance of
 comments made.

 To be more clear

 OFDM is plagued by a larger SNR to operate adequately, compared to DSSS.
 DSSS has been able to operate with minimum SNRs anywhere from 3db (canopy)
 to 8db (trango).
 Actually that comment is not exactly true, Canopy's C/I is 3db (not 
minimum

 SNR required).
 OFDM gear typically wants to see a minimum of 17db SNR, and performs
 optimally with  25db SNR.
 I'm not aware that Wifi gear has worse C/I specs than non-Wifi gear, based
 on it being Wifi (csma/ca).
 Wifi or TDD has nothing to do with Noise, Wifi  TDD has to do with timing
 of transmissions.

 My point was that if you can't get over the noise, when using modulations
 less able to get over the noise, you can help solve the problem by
 transmitting when the noise is not occuring.
 Contant time based transmission has little benefit, if it occurs during a
 noisy time where that noise will kill the signal and results in packet 
loss.

 I'd rather have increased latency, and try again, to prevent packet loss.

  I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be
  able to survive the noise, with better SNRs

  Meant... DSSS gets over noise better than OFDM, and I like TDD gear when
 the gear can survive the noise floor, and DSSS gear is more likely to
 survive the noise floor, and well matched with TDD.

 If using OFDM, requiring larger SNR, harder to accomplish in high noise
 environements, a non-TDD based scheduling MAC such as CSMA/CA can improve
 overall end to end performance and reduce packet loss.

 A lost packet, end to end across a session, takes up WAY more bandwdith 
and

 has a penalty of WAY more LAtency, than hiding the packet loss from the
 session, and re-transmitting the loss at the specific link that the packet
 loss occured.

 The point I am making is that so many people judge performance by Link
 performance, which means nothing in terms of the performance that the end
 user experiences end to end.  End USer Performance is about preventing and
 minimizing packet loss.

 A perfect exmaple was a link that I had to rebuild today.  I tried to pull
 off a ofdm 900 Mhz link. I have a registered noise floor of -85, and an
 average signal of -55, but I had to pull out the link, because end to end,
 the best I could accomplish was 5-10% packet loss. The reason is that
 sporatic paging noise peaked loud enough to interfere with my signal
 (although not seen with cheap limited wifi built-in noise detection).  I 
was

 able to do a radio to radio throughout test of almost 10 mbps.  But thats
 not what the end user saw, trying to type in his remote office 
application.

 More like 30 seconds to see his characters show up on the screen after he
 typed them.  But web browsing appeared OK. This particular case it
 demonstrates the harm of packet loss, allthough limited in relevance as it
 was a OFDM CSMA/CA link.   Trango 900 DSSS w/ nosie compression

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived-regardinginterference- Part 1

2006-12-28 Thread Patrick Leary
Alvarion's got actual WiMAX gear Rich. Our WiMAX-certified BreezeMAX 3500 is 
being deployed in over 100 commercial networks along with about 120 trials. In 
the U.S. we are selling and deploying early BreezeMAX 2500 and BreezeMAX 2300 
to a handful of operators. These are TDD 802.16e-ready solutions and they will 
be certified when the WiMAX Forum opens up .16e certification testing.

Some call BreezeACCESS pre-WiMAX, but that is only true to the extent that it 
uses OFDM and has a host of other features that some might call WiMAX-like. I 
am personally not fond of pre/like/kinda, etc. UNLESS the system is real WiMAX 
and just awaits the certification process, such as is the case with BreezeMAX 
2300 and BreezeMAX 2500. BreezeMAX 3500 is already certified. Anything called 
BreezeMAX was designed from the ground up to support WiMAX profiles and will 
ultimately be WiMAX-certified. Anything in our line NOT called BreezeMAX will 
not ever be WiMAX-certified.
 
Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rich Comroe
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 5:31 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived-regardinginterference- 
Part 1

Again, I think they're already being made, aren't they? for 3.5GHz.  Doesn't 
have to be final WiMAX ... I presume that all the pre-WiMAX products are OFDM 
and TDD.  I've yet to hear of one at 900, 2.4, or 5.  Anyone?  Am I all wet on 
what the pre-WiMAX products are?  I could very well be all wet, as I am only 
talking from what I've picked up from reading here ... and I've not had any 
first-hand experience with real available pre-WiMAX gear that's out there.  
Alvarion's got pre-WiMAX gear ... maybe Patrick can confirm, or alternatively 
slap me back to reality!   :-)

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brad Belton 
  To: 'WISPA General List' 
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:16 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have 
arrived-regardinginterference - Part 1


  lol...gotta love it!  I'd argue it doesn't have to be only $300 to sell.
  I'd pay two or three times that for such a product.  

  But honestly that isn't that much to ask as many products are already so
  close...Alvarion VL being one of the closest, but still no cigar.  

  I like what you said about developing Trango products and agree they are way
  past due to leapfrog back to the front of the pack.  Oh those were the
  days when Sunstream/Trango was the undisputed leader with the début of the
  M5800 and then the M5830.  sigh  Maybe they can do it again!

  Best,


  Brad





  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
  -regardinginterference - Part 1

  Charles,

  WOW! Great Post! That covers about everything.

  It increases the understanding of the complexity, but it doesn't answer the 
  ultimate question, What to use.

  What we really want is an efficient OFDM system, with a strong TDD w/ARQ 
  MAC, RFThreshold, Good Noise Filtering, Packet aggregating/compressing, 
  adeqaute CPU processing, Quality narrow beam diversity antennas, all 
  pre-packaged in a system/box under $300.  But that product does not exist 
  today.

  So why doesn't a manufacturer just make it, so we can stop debating what is 
  best, and just deploy radios!

  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message - 
  From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:47 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived - 
  regardinginterference - Part 1


  I go to see Mickey Mouse for a few days and look where this thread has
  gone...wow

  So, my 2 cents...

  One of the largest concerns in the license-exempt world is the question of a
  system's interference robustness.  However, before we can get into further
  detail on the pros and cons of Alvarion VL vs Canopy, CSMA/CA vs GPS, etc --
  it is necessary to realize that interference as a term is extremely broad
  and vague, and can mean just about anything to anyone.  Heck, all radios in
  the market have some sort of interference robustness / avoidance
  capability -- the trick to understanding a system's capabilities is knowing
  what TYPE of interference the system can actually handle.  Read on...I'll
  talk more about each particular platform when I get some time to write Part
  2 =)



  WHAT IS INTERERENCE?

  In the wireless world, interference, by definition, is a situation where
  unwanted radio signals operate in the same frequency channels or bands -
  i.e. they mutually interfere, disrupt or add to the overall noise

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-28 Thread Patrick Leary
Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times
and spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the
myths. FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has
lots of challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in UL
bands. 

I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not have
UL WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your head
and really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially
INVENTED this stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been
selling 802.16 PMP in scale since summer 2004. We today have well over
50% of all WiMAX base stations and clients sold into the market. You
have to understand that if UL WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have
introduced it long ago when others were trying to spell WiMAX. Fact is,
it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. Anyone that buys it before
the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.

I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?)

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?

Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon.
But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Rich Comroe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than 
sensitivity.  At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the
20mbps 
Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances.

OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the 
10mbps Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly
higher 
C/Is).  OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can
operate 
with less signal than 20mbps Canopy.  And as you already expressed, with

17-25 dB or more, it runs much faster.

But you also neglect that with OFDM's multiple subchannels, it can
tolerate 
partial band interference whereas the DSSS system would just stop cold.

Aside from the above, I perceive you seem to appreciate the value of
time 
framed systems.  I sometimes get wrong who is advocating what in email

threads, so I appologize in advance if I've got this wrong.  I'm a great
fan 
of time framed systems myself.

It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system
would have performed?

I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tom DeReggi
  To: WISPA General List
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Marlon,

  You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge
those
  definitions.
  However, I challenge the relevance of just about all your responses to
my
  comments.
  I recognize I may not have been super clear, but I was assuming the
reader
  would apply their knowledge of the definitions, to infer the relevance
of
  comments made.

  To be more clear

  OFDM is plagued by a larger SNR to operate adequately, compared to
DSSS.
  DSSS has been able to operate with minimum SNRs anywhere from 3db
(canopy)
  to 8db (trango).
  Actually that comment is not exactly true, Canopy's C/I is 3db (not 
minimum
  SNR required).
  OFDM gear typically wants to see a minimum of 17db SNR, and performs
  optimally with  25db SNR.
  I'm not aware that Wifi gear has worse C/I specs than non-Wifi gear,
based
  on it being Wifi (csma/ca).
  Wifi or TDD has nothing to do with Noise, Wifi  TDD has to do with
timing
  of transmissions.

  My point was that if you can't get over the noise, when using
modulations
  less able to get over the noise, you can help solve the problem by
  transmitting when the noise is not occuring.
  Contant time based transmission has little benefit, if it occurs
during a
  noisy time where that noise will kill the signal and results in packet

loss.
  I'd rather have increased latency, and try again, to prevent packet
loss.

   I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS
to be
   able to survive the noise, with better SNRs

   Meant... DSSS gets over noise better than OFDM, and I like TDD gear
when
  the gear can survive the noise floor, and DSSS gear is more likely to
  survive the noise floor, and well matched with TDD.

  If using OFDM, requiring larger SNR, harder to accomplish in high
noise
  environements, a non-TDD based scheduling MAC such as CSMA/CA can
improve
  overall end to end performance

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-28 Thread Rich Comroe
Can't argue with a manufacturer actually participating heavily in the WiMAX 
process. But I respectfully disagree here a bit.

Fact is,
it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready.

IMHO It ain't ready because licensed MMDS replacement was the original 802.16 
plan.  Thoughts of UL had been introduced fairly late in the game.

Anyone that buys it before
the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.

Anyone manufacturer who builds an UL solution which is WiMAX like pre-standard 
is no worse than with any other proprietary solution ... except that there is 
always hope of a firmware upgrade to standard at some future date if the 
hardware is WiMAX.  I dunno ... I think the reason there is no UL WiMAX like 
standard is because Europe dropped the ball with HyperLAN2.  It was 
standardized years ago by ETSI, it was UL 5GHz targetted (RLAN bands), but the 
involved carriers and manufacturers all nearly bankrupted themselves over 3G 
development  licensing.  (Maybe, maybe not)  For whatever reason it unraveled 
and IEEE 802.16 originally didn't had UL as a primary target (licensed MMDS 
replacement IIRC).

Didn't any European manufacturer field any HyperLAN2 products (or prototypes) 
which could be trialed in US 5GHz UNII band?  Sigh...

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Patrick Leary 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:41 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times
  and spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the
  myths. FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has
  lots of challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in UL
  bands. 

  I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not have
  UL WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your head
  and really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially
  INVENTED this stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been
  selling 802.16 PMP in scale since summer 2004. We today have well over
  50% of all WiMAX base stations and clients sold into the market. You
  have to understand that if UL WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have
  introduced it long ago when others were trying to spell WiMAX. Fact is,
  it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. Anyone that buys it before
  the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.

  I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?)

  Patrick Leary
  AVP WISP Markets
  Alvarion, Inc.
  o: 650.314.2628
  c: 760.580.0080
  Vonage: 650.641.1243
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

  I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?

  Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon.
  But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007.

  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message - 
  From: Rich Comroe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than 
  sensitivity.  At low signal it's always been higher than 3dB, and the
  20mbps 
  Canopy requires higher C/I under all circumstances.

  OFDM provides a range of signalling speeds, from BPSK (same C/I as the 
  10mbps Canopy) through large constellation QAMs (with correspondingly
  higher 
  C/Is).  OFDM will work in as little signal as 10mbps Canopy, and can
  operate 
  with less signal than 20mbps Canopy.  And as you already expressed, with

  17-25 dB or more, it runs much faster.

  But you also neglect that with OFDM's multiple subchannels, it can
  tolerate 
  partial band interference whereas the DSSS system would just stop cold.

  Aside from the above, I perceive you seem to appreciate the value of
  time 
  framed systems.  I sometimes get wrong who is advocating what in email

  threads, so I appologize in advance if I've got this wrong.  I'm a great
  fan 
  of time framed systems myself.

  It would be interesting to see how a bare OFDM TDD system
  would have performed?

  I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?

  Rich
- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi
To: WISPA General List
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Marlon,

You get an A+ on your definitions of terms I used. I don't challenge
  those
definitions.
However, I challenge the relevance of just about all your responses to
  my
comments.
I recognize I may not have been super clear, but I was assuming the
  reader
would apply

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-28 Thread Patrick Leary
Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for
UL. I did not say in detail why (at least not in this post). For sure it
is because the MAC was developed for licensed (LMDS actually) -- that's
my point. It was never conceived of for UL. 
---
Also, there IS a WiMAX UL standard -- the profile has been in place for
over a year. There just is not equipment and there has been no UL
certification yet. http://www.wimaxforum.org/kshowcase/view  The reason
has nothing to do with Europe (Alvarion's Mariana Goldhamer led the
harmonization between ETSI HiperMAN and IEEE 802.16 several years ago).
The main vendors in the Forum (the ones that really drive things) all
know the deal with UL and they are in no rush to deliver WiMAX in it's
current form onto the U.S. market. Also, the existing UL WiMAX profile
is for 802.16d-2004. The whole of the Forum is focusing on 802.16e-2005,
in fact, the entire WiMAX ecosystem you hear about it all relative to
802.16e-2005. Migrations from .16d-2005 to .16e-2005 are not software
type changes. All that combined with the non-UL MAC = folks will be
sorry for sinking CAPEX into certain UL WiMAX. Buyer beware and know
the deal.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Comroe
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Can't argue with a manufacturer actually participating heavily in the
WiMAX process. But I respectfully disagree here a bit.

Fact is,
it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready.

IMHO It ain't ready because licensed MMDS replacement was the original
802.16 plan.  Thoughts of UL had been introduced fairly late in the
game.

Anyone that buys it before
the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.

Anyone manufacturer who builds an UL solution which is WiMAX like
pre-standard is no worse than with any other proprietary solution ...
except that there is always hope of a firmware upgrade to standard at
some future date if the hardware is WiMAX.  I dunno ... I think the
reason there is no UL WiMAX like standard is because Europe dropped the
ball with HyperLAN2.  It was standardized years ago by ETSI, it was UL
5GHz targetted (RLAN bands), but the involved carriers and manufacturers
all nearly bankrupted themselves over 3G development  licensing.
(Maybe, maybe not)  For whatever reason it unraveled and IEEE 802.16
originally didn't had UL as a primary target (licensed MMDS replacement
IIRC).

Didn't any European manufacturer field any HyperLAN2 products (or
prototypes) which could be trialed in US 5GHz UNII band?  Sigh...

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Patrick Leary 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:41 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Lots of myth around WiMAX unlicensed. I've posted about it many times
  and spoke about it many more, but people still continue to believe the
  myths. FOLKS, get it through your heads that WiMAX in unlicensed has
  lots of challenges until they can solve the problem of the .16 MAC in
UL
  bands. 

  I know some of you will say, gee, maybe because Alvarion might not
have
  UL WIMAX before others, but if you really dig in the data, use your
head
  and really think you'll get it. Plus, remember that we essentially
  INVENTED this stuff folks, us and tiny handful of others. We've been
  selling 802.16 PMP in scale since summer 2004. We today have well over
  50% of all WiMAX base stations and clients sold into the market. You
  have to understand that if UL WiMAX was the holy grail we'd have
  introduced it long ago when others were trying to spell WiMAX. Fact
is,
  it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready. Anyone that buys it
before
  the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.

  I don't know how more blunt I can be. (Tom, you listening?)

  Patrick Leary
  AVP WISP Markets
  Alvarion, Inc.
  o: 650.314.2628
  c: 760.580.0080
  Vonage: 650.641.1243
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
  Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 6:05 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

  I think you'll get your wish.  Isn't this what WiMAX is?

  Yes, but don;t predict we'll see a 900Mhz verion any time soon.
  But 5.8G, yes, I think it will be first half 2007.

  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message - 
  From: Rich Comroe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 8:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Canopy's C/I of 3dB is only the 10mbps at signals much stronger than 
  sensitivity.  At low signal it's always been higher

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-28 Thread Rich Comroe
Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for UL

I hear you.  My disagreement is that a UL wisp standard SHOULD have been ready 
YEARS ago.

HiperMAN is different than HiperLAN/2 (I incorrectly called it HyperLAN2 in the 
previous posts).  You say the spec for UL WiMAX is not done yet.  In a few days 
it'll be 2007.  The spec for HiperLAN/2 was completed back in 2000 ... that's 7 
years ago!  5 years ago there were prototype HiperLAN/2 products produced by 
Mitsubishi, NTT/Panasonic, Sharp, Sony, Stepmind, Theta and Thomson.  Then ... 
something happened.  802.11a was shipping in the US, the 802.11h standard was 
adopted (adding DFS and TPC required for European acceptance), and the 
HiperLAN/2 coalition seemed to evaporate overnite.

Apparently nobody considered the US UL wisp market as a viable candidate to 
sell the Hiperlan/2 products completed back in 2002, and I can't find any 
record of products ever being offered here.  I can understand it, as it was 
driven by all large manufacturers anticipating the wireless LAN market volumes 
(which UL wisps can't come close to in collective volume).  It's kind of funny 
that no wisp manufacturer offered any US HiperLAN/2 like products, while 
Motorola's Canopy was actually architecturally very similar to HiperLAN/2 
(except for the non-OFDM layer1).

Again, in a few days it'll be 2007 and they're still arguing over an UL WiMAX 
standard?  Why not try the HiperLAN/2 standard completed long ago?  Why?  
Because the standards participants are committed to licensed WiMAX 
manufacturing and are looking for a new UL standard with high commonality with 
licensed WiMAX / mobile WiMAX.  It's a business decision to maximize return on 
their collective WiMAX chip investments.  Unfortunately there's no UL wisp 
business coalition with sufficient standing to drive manufacturers for what UL 
wisps need ... (yet).

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Patrick Leary 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:53 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for
  UL. I did not say in detail why (at least not in this post). For sure it
  is because the MAC was developed for licensed (LMDS actually) -- that's
  my point. It was never conceived of for UL. 
  ---
  Also, there IS a WiMAX UL standard -- the profile has been in place for
  over a year. There just is not equipment and there has been no UL
  certification yet. http://www.wimaxforum.org/kshowcase/view  The reason
  has nothing to do with Europe (Alvarion's Mariana Goldhamer led the
  harmonization between ETSI HiperMAN and IEEE 802.16 several years ago).
  The main vendors in the Forum (the ones that really drive things) all
  know the deal with UL and they are in no rush to deliver WiMAX in it's
  current form onto the U.S. market. Also, the existing UL WiMAX profile
  is for 802.16d-2004. The whole of the Forum is focusing on 802.16e-2005,
  in fact, the entire WiMAX ecosystem you hear about it all relative to
  802.16e-2005. Migrations from .16d-2005 to .16e-2005 are not software
  type changes. All that combined with the non-UL MAC = folks will be
  sorry for sinking CAPEX into certain UL WiMAX. Buyer beware and know
  the deal.

  Patrick Leary
  AVP WISP Markets
  Alvarion, Inc.
  o: 650.314.2628
  c: 760.580.0080
  Vonage: 650.641.1243
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Rich Comroe
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:28 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

  Can't argue with a manufacturer actually participating heavily in the
  WiMAX process. But I respectfully disagree here a bit.

  Fact is,
  it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready.

  IMHO It ain't ready because licensed MMDS replacement was the original
  802.16 plan.  Thoughts of UL had been introduced fairly late in the
  game.

  Anyone that buys it before
  the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.

  Anyone manufacturer who builds an UL solution which is WiMAX like
  pre-standard is no worse than with any other proprietary solution ...
  except that there is always hope of a firmware upgrade to standard at
  some future date if the hardware is WiMAX.  I dunno ... I think the
  reason there is no UL WiMAX like standard is because Europe dropped the
  ball with HyperLAN2.  It was standardized years ago by ETSI, it was UL
  5GHz targetted (RLAN bands), but the involved carriers and manufacturers
  all nearly bankrupted themselves over 3G development  licensing.
  (Maybe, maybe not)  For whatever reason it unraveled and IEEE 802.16
  originally didn't had UL as a primary target (licensed MMDS replacement
  IIRC).

  Didn't any European manufacturer field any HyperLAN2 products (or
  prototypes) which could be trialed in US 5GHz UNII band?  Sigh...

  Rich
- Original

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-28 Thread Patrick Leary
Rich, I said the spec (profile) for UL WiMAX IS done and has been for
over a year. But the spec does not solve the 802.16 problem in UL and
all the vendors know it, thus the creation of 802.16h (which we have not
yet discussed in this thread) http://www.ieee802.org/16/le/ which we
chair. UL WiMAX will be ready hopefully when this TG can work out a
solution.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Comroe
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:31 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for
UL

I hear you.  My disagreement is that a UL wisp standard SHOULD have been
ready YEARS ago.

HiperMAN is different than HiperLAN/2 (I incorrectly called it HyperLAN2
in the previous posts).  You say the spec for UL WiMAX is not done yet.
In a few days it'll be 2007.  The spec for HiperLAN/2 was completed back
in 2000 ... that's 7 years ago!  5 years ago there were prototype
HiperLAN/2 products produced by Mitsubishi, NTT/Panasonic, Sharp, Sony,
Stepmind, Theta and Thomson.  Then ... something happened.  802.11a was
shipping in the US, the 802.11h standard was adopted (adding DFS and TPC
required for European acceptance), and the HiperLAN/2 coalition seemed
to evaporate overnite.

Apparently nobody considered the US UL wisp market as a viable candidate
to sell the Hiperlan/2 products completed back in 2002, and I can't find
any record of products ever being offered here.  I can understand it, as
it was driven by all large manufacturers anticipating the wireless LAN
market volumes (which UL wisps can't come close to in collective
volume).  It's kind of funny that no wisp manufacturer offered any US
HiperLAN/2 like products, while Motorola's Canopy was actually
architecturally very similar to HiperLAN/2 (except for the non-OFDM
layer1).

Again, in a few days it'll be 2007 and they're still arguing over an UL
WiMAX standard?  Why not try the HiperLAN/2 standard completed long ago?
Why?  Because the standards participants are committed to licensed WiMAX
manufacturing and are looking for a new UL standard with high
commonality with licensed WiMAX / mobile WiMAX.  It's a business
decision to maximize return on their collective WiMAX chip investments.
Unfortunately there's no UL wisp business coalition with sufficient
standing to drive manufacturers for what UL wisps need ... (yet).

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Patrick Leary 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:53 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Where's the disagreement Rich. I said the WiMAX MAC was not ready for
  UL. I did not say in detail why (at least not in this post). For sure
it
  is because the MAC was developed for licensed (LMDS actually) --
that's
  my point. It was never conceived of for UL. 
  ---
  Also, there IS a WiMAX UL standard -- the profile has been in place
for
  over a year. There just is not equipment and there has been no UL
  certification yet. http://www.wimaxforum.org/kshowcase/view  The
reason
  has nothing to do with Europe (Alvarion's Mariana Goldhamer led the
  harmonization between ETSI HiperMAN and IEEE 802.16 several years
ago).
  The main vendors in the Forum (the ones that really drive things) all
  know the deal with UL and they are in no rush to deliver WiMAX in it's
  current form onto the U.S. market. Also, the existing UL WiMAX profile
  is for 802.16d-2004. The whole of the Forum is focusing on
802.16e-2005,
  in fact, the entire WiMAX ecosystem you hear about it all relative
to
  802.16e-2005. Migrations from .16d-2005 to .16e-2005 are not software
  type changes. All that combined with the non-UL MAC = folks will be
  sorry for sinking CAPEX into certain UL WiMAX. Buyer beware and know
  the deal.

  Patrick Leary
  AVP WISP Markets
  Alvarion, Inc.
  o: 650.314.2628
  c: 760.580.0080
  Vonage: 650.641.1243
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
  Behalf Of Rich Comroe
  Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 7:28 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

  Can't argue with a manufacturer actually participating heavily in the
  WiMAX process. But I respectfully disagree here a bit.

  Fact is,
  it ain't ready because UL WiMAX ain't ready.

  IMHO It ain't ready because licensed MMDS replacement was the original
  802.16 plan.  Thoughts of UL had been introduced fairly late in the
  game.

  Anyone that buys it before
  the issues are fixed is going to be very sorry.

  Anyone manufacturer who builds an UL solution which is WiMAX like
  pre-standard is no worse than with any other proprietary solution ...
  except that there is always hope of a firmware upgrade to standard

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Mac Dearman
Patrick,

   You are a better man than I am - no doubt! You have answered seven
thousand questions, retorted seven thousand fallacies and straightened out
another seven thousand myths. I have been a consultant for Trango for the
last two years and I do know every in and every out of Trango gear. I can
tell you what it will do and what it will not do, what to expect and what
not to look for by just looking at your coverage area. It doesn't matter
if it's 900 MHz, 5.x or 2.4GHz - - I can tell you some stuff. I have built
Muni networks with Trango and I have built my personal network with Trango
and a menagerie of different gear. I can also tell you and the rest of the
world about Alvarion.

  I bought another WISP in a distant town and when I bought them out they
were a 100% Alvarion network. That was my first experience with Alvarion. I
will tell you that they had the 3mbps gear up, they had a 99% business
network and that they had 0% LOS to any client. I never bothered to check
out their clients or how they were installed, but jumped at the opportunity
to buy them out at a great price. When I did get the deal done I soon
realized the gear they were running far exceeded what I had in store. I did
have to place 900MHz gear to replace the Alvarion 3mbps FHSS to establish
and maintain those connections. These folks didn't know sheet from shinola,
but they had a nice WISP and all they could say was Alvarion. They never
bothered to further themselves education wise, but called on Trango to buy
more gear when they had another client. When I tell you they couldn't spell
PC - - they didn't have a clue.

All this said - - - why do you feel you must guard against and protect
Alvarion from every opposing opinion? I don't have to tell you that there
are those that can be starving from thirst, led to water and still die from
thirst. The ComNet program is absolutely a great program that has enabled
(and will enable) many WISP to upgrade to a carrier class program. I can't
speak for anyone else, but I (as an old time Trango hand) appreciate all the
work that I know you personally put into this program. You are a good man
who cares about the folks who make this wireless industry exist. 

All right - - one question for myself - - - - dang, why are the AP's so
stinking expensive? It is only a software difference and if the AP's weren't
as costly - - -   I believe that Alvarion would run off with the market. Why
is it that this type gear has to be so substantially higher in cost?


Mac Dearman

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

...okay, I went off the deep end there. It was wrong of me to insult the
competition because I'm allowing myself to be baited. Sorry folks. Sorry
Trango. Ghrr.

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:12 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will
discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next!

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have
something
worth taking note about.  Throw in dual band ability and now you're on
the
right track.

As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a
VL
radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so.  Sounds like
fun!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual
horizontal 
Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?).
Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even 
considering the 10Mhz channel option.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist  Motorola is extremely
conservative on
 the spec sheet.  4.21 Mbps Net typical where you get that?  I got
 Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be
the
 most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between 
 performance
 and interference rejection.  And don't negate the fact that GPS is a
must
 have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Mac Dearman
 

 

These folks didn't know sheet from shinola, but they had a nice WISP and
all they could say was Alvarion. They never bothered to further themselves
education wise, but called on Trango to buy more gear when they had another
client. When I tell you they couldn't spell PC - - they didn't have a clue

 

CORRECTION should read: They never bothered to further themselves education
wise but, called on ALVARION to buy more gear..

 

 

Mac Dearman

 

 

 

 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 2:41 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 

Patrick,

 

   You are a better man than I am - no doubt! You have answered seven

thousand questions, retorted seven thousand fallacies and straightened out

another seven thousand myths. I have been a consultant for Trango for the

last two years and I do know every in and every out of Trango gear. I can

tell you what it will do and what it will not do, what to expect and what

not to look for by just looking at your coverage area. It doesn't matter

if it's 900 MHz, 5.x or 2.4GHz - - I can tell you some stuff. I have built

Muni networks with Trango and I have built my personal network with Trango

and a menagerie of different gear. I can also tell you and the rest of the

world about Alvarion.

 

  I bought another WISP in a distant town and when I bought them out they

were a 100% Alvarion network. That was my first experience with Alvarion. I

will tell you that they had the 3mbps gear up, they had a 99% business

network and that they had 0% LOS to any client. I never bothered to check

out their clients or how they were installed, but jumped at the opportunity

to buy them out at a great price. When I did get the deal done I soon

realized the gear they were running far exceeded what I had in store. I did

have to place 900MHz gear to replace the Alvarion 3mbps FHSS to establish

and maintain those connections. These folks didn't know sheet from shinola,

but they had a nice WISP and all they could say was Alvarion. They never

bothered to further themselves education wise, but called on Trango to buy

more gear when they had another client. When I tell you they couldn't spell

PC - - they didn't have a clue.

 

All this said - - - why do you feel you must guard against and protect

Alvarion from every opposing opinion? I don't have to tell you that there

are those that can be starving from thirst, led to water and still die from

thirst. The ComNet program is absolutely a great program that has enabled

(and will enable) many WISP to upgrade to a carrier class program. I can't

speak for anyone else, but I (as an old time Trango hand) appreciate all the

work that I know you personally put into this program. You are a good man

who cares about the folks who make this wireless industry exist. 

 

All right - - one question for myself - - - - dang, why are the AP's so

stinking expensive? It is only a software difference and if the AP's weren't

as costly - - -   I believe that Alvarion would run off with the market. Why

is it that this type gear has to be so substantially higher in cost?

 

 

Mac Dearman

 

-Original Message-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Patrick Leary

Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:16 PM

To: WISPA General List

Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 

...okay, I went off the deep end there. It was wrong of me to insult the

competition because I'm allowing myself to be baited. Sorry folks. Sorry

Trango. Ghrr.

 

Patrick

 

-Original Message-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Patrick Leary

Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:12 PM

To: WISPA General List

Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 

Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will

discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next!

 

Patrick

 

-Original Message-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Brad Belton

Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM

To: 'WISPA General List'

Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 

Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have

something

worth taking note about.  Throw in dual band ability and now you're on

the

right track.

 

As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a

VL

radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so.  Sounds like

fun!

 

Best,

 

 

Brad

 

 

 

-Original Message-

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Tom DeReggi

Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM

To: WISPA General List

Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 

Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual

horizontal 

Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Brad Belton
My statement below is simply a fact regarding committed rate business class
service.  If Alvarion Support could have made it work then the gear would
still be up and the client would still be using it.

How many times have I said Alvarion makes a quality product?  How many times
have I said I'd love to be able to use Alvarion?  How many times have I said
this isn't about one brand vs. another, but rather results?

John, I get the feeling you just aren't reading through the posts
completely.  Clearly I do not hate VL instead I'd love to see the product
IMPROVED!  What is so wrong with that?

Best,


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:09 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Best,


Brad

  

Brad, I see your almost continuous negative posts about VL and cannot 
help but wonder why you continue to send these posts over and over and 
over to this list. I do not need to be told every day that VL is bad in 
the world according to Brad Belton. We have all heard you say it 100 
times I think. (Maybe several time that if we look at your posts to 
other lists about the same issues) Please change the record. There are 
many of us who do not agree with you that find your non-stop nitpicking 
posts to be a nuisance to this list.

We get ityou hate VL. You stated your piece and we all read about 
it, OVER and OVER. Alvarion is open to criticism just as any other 
platform and we show no favoritism but enough is enough. Please move on 
to another topic.
Respectfully,
Scriv



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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Brad Larson
Jon, Sigh...Sync in wimax is the preferred method for small channel
deployments to ensure QOS and protecting a scheduled mac that has not
been optimized for interference rejection.  I would also conclude that
mobility and denser cell sites for voip and indoor installs are quite
different than most UL deployments. Sync has very little to do with
using an old modulation technique that needs sync to ensure scale of any
size. I would argue that megabits per Hz, voip, and video are the things
to watch for 2007 and beyond. For further information on sync and wimax
in the UL bands keep your eye on 802.16h. 

I would add that if you can't connect a customer because of LOS issues
all the sync you can muster doesn't make a difference. Connecting those
customers and saving money on the number of cell sites, leases, and
maintenance of those sites DOES make a MAJOR difference as well as WHAT
you can sell to your customers in the form of additional services other
than just data! A well respected ISP just did a bakeoff in a metro area
and they found out very quickly that VL connected more subscriber sites
at much higher data rates. I had an engineer on the ground doing 6 meg's
up and down where Mot had zero connectivity at 6 of the 11 sites that
were the problem areas. 

As far as your statement of having happy customers, Marty from
Roadstar already answered that one and please keep in mind that probably
very few Alvarion shops are subscribers here (I'm trying to change that
because I think it's very important that you guys hear more from our
installed base). Maybe Marty and others will chime in on their low
maintenance and ease of install and the support we offer. I know Marty
is saving boatloads of money on the backend because of his change of
manufacturer. BTW, The 2,400 cpe 5 square mile network I spoke of in a
previous post is humming right along and could have never been built at
the same cost with Mot (and they lost the bid because of that).

As a side note: Many of my customers tell me that they just don't get
all the Alvarion dissing that has become commonplace on the lists. Look
at this current thread and how it has spun into something other than
what was intended.One situation from one installation set the tone
for the dissing while at the same time we have a multitude of trained
and certified VAR's and wisp's that have had the exact opposite opinion
and are doing the exact installs and builds that we're being told can't
be done (and several VAR's have done 100's of them). It's a shame we
constantly have to defend our position from the constant rhetoric any
time there is a congratulating post from one of our customers or someone
asking for insight on the value of an Alvarion rollout...Brad Larson


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

I didn't make any 'claims' and as for 1,000 cpe, that's possible with 
wifi(although I'd hate to be one of the end-users). Some of the 
differences is how happy the customers are(reliability seems to play key

here), whether they're business or res., how easy it is to have lower 
cost employees deploy the network(as opposed to me and other qualified

or certified engineers that charge $10K's more/yr), and how tasked the

support and management department is, etc. Things that factor into 
operating a real world wisp. My kind of business is one I can leave for 
a vacation or another venture while having confidence the thing is going

to continue growing while I'm gone.
As for GPS sync. Maybe the cellular guys were wrong the whole time, must

be another Moto consipiracy and maybe mention that to everyone that 
developed 802.16d/e(WIMAX) including your own Alvarion engineers! ;) No 
GPS is not required, but it sure makes a lot of sense and is arguably 
'proper' for a multi cell deployment. I predict this is one of those 
things that the novice wisp will someday either understand, moved on 
beyond wireless last mile, or stuck it out and trained their support 
dept. on how to 'put out fires' for as long as possible. Of course all 
of this is my opinion but I have to go now...hopfully was enough for 
everyone to chew on ;)

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Brad Larson wrote:

Jon, LOL. Our engineers don't watch these threads and they probably
never will and I wouldn't want them to. It's funny that this thread was
started by a very happy Alvarion customer whom just broke the 1,000 cpe
threshold with VL and he's doing the very things that aren't supposed
to
be possible according to some posting on this topic!! And the funny
part
of it is, VL displaced one of the products mentioned...performance went
up, truck rolls went down, and he sleeps better at night!! This thread
reminds me of a competitor slinging mud 2 years ago saying we couldn't
build a 3 tower network in 5 square miles to connect 2,400

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Patrick Leary
Love the post. Thanks. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Bushard, Jr
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 8:03 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Brad, Jon, Patrick. I really think all of you are off the path
here

As Patrick knows we ARE a scaled canopy operator. I designed this baby
from
the ground up, everything from the L3 switches, Battery backup, 3rd
party
antennas, conversions, everything.

We are currently over 1,200 Canopy CPE in the field and doing over 100
installs per month.

Does Canopy have it's issues, your DAMN right. But it works, yes it does
require a high level of knowledge to scale a canopy network, but what
system
doesn't? anyone can throw together a 50 sub network, but 500 or 5000
separates the men from the boys.

Marlon originally said he was thinking about deploying VL for business
customers. Well guess what. we are too. And I think they are for
similar
reasons. The original network I owned was based on InvisiMax Access
Points
on Soekris SBC's with Senao wifi cards and CB3's as the CPE radios. Once
I
got it working it ran very well, but when I sold out the new owners
needed
more so I chose Canopy. Well now we want to deploy a Premium business
service, lets say 3Mbps of data with 6 Voice Lines. I KNOW canopy in its
current state will not do that with any scalability, so I turned to
Patrick
and PCS Technologies. I think we all know that VL wont hit a sub 5 miles
out
in the MN forest, only 900 or lower can do that, I also don't expect 900
to
push 30Mbps of data. Everything has its trade offs. 

As far as the GPS debate, I DO think GPS is a good thing, it sure can't
hurt. Did Alvarion choose to implement it, no, do I have a problem with
it,
no. Canopy has it for channel reuse, and because it needs it, period no
more
arguing, please. BA 900 and 2.4 has it because to scale it needs it.
After
all the only thing that can kill canopy IS canopy.

I probably should write more, but I have to work early (Towers crews
coming
to put up another Dragon Wave). I realize I may not have done anything
to
help, hopefully I have not mad an ass of myself, but I am really getting
tired of the Canopy Vs Alvarion Vs Trango bull crap.

Run what you feel is the best, and if you can't live with the fact that
others disagree, keep it to yourself. Marlon is a (I feel) intelligent
enough guy to make his own decisions, he has been doing this a long
time, He
is still around, so he must have either got real lucky, figured it out,
or
have the brains in the first place.

Maybe some day well all be at a conference and can rent a boxing ring
and
work this out but until then, please leave it alone, my delete key with
thank you.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
320-256-WISP (9477)
320-256-9478 Fax
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Not sure how your Alvarion 900 was configured, but our you are aware
that our 900 and 2.4 have both supported GPS sync since day one right
Eight years before Canopy even launched)?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 5:54 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Let's use 900MHz as an example. We deployed Alvarion 900 on multiple 
sites for over a year and it was a less than enjoyable experience. We 
started by transitioning one site from Alvarion 900 to Canopy 900 and 
things started working much better.
I may use licensed operations as an example only because I've had the 
experience of being on both sides of the fence. Also we buy GPS sync 
units as low as $300 new from a 3rd party vendor, as do many canopy 
operators.
As for the excess bandwidth availability in the UL bands, that's 
definately not the case here...

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Patrick Leary wrote:

Jon,

When discussing GPS, you continue to offer examples from the licensed
world, which is about as relevant as trying to do an apples to apples
comparisons of mobile licensed cellular service plans with UL fixed
wireless. As I have said before (last week), licensed uses GPS due to
the necessity of having to re-use a small amount of channel over and
over again, cell after cell. That's not the case in the UL world,
except
perhaps for Canopy whose bandwidth availability is so low relative to
the channel. 

Jon, you, me, the fence post and everyone else knows why Canopy --
alone
in the entire UL 5GHz world -- requires GPS to scale

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Rich Comroe
There's no unlicensed product which guarantees business class services in 
interference.  To suggest product A does and product B doesn't is nonsense.  I 
think you've done a good job of describing why you think some products do a 
better job of than others.  That's fair.  Sharing experiences where one product 
did better than another is fair.  I love reading your posts and others 
comparing the attributes which impact on this.  It's educational and I get 
insights into equipment that I haven't personally had direct experience.  But 
the constant bashing that some product will guarantee business class services 
in interference and another won't is tiresome, and just turns people off from 
the good content that people appreciate.

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brad Belton 
  To: 'WISPA General List' 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 7:26 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Certainly you can do committed rate business class services with unlicensed
  products.  WMUX, Terabridge, Trango just to name a few.  Are they
  interchangeable in application?  Nope, they require you use the right
  product for the job at hand.  What may work well on one project may not on
  the next.

  Interference typically isn't temporary...at least not around these parts!
  No, you need to engineer the link with enough forethought and available
  tools on hand to give yourself options in the event a link does begin to
  incur interference.

  In our experience the VL was erratic in its ability to consistently produce
  the same end result day in and day out.  Alvarion, me and the third party
  client all knew before hand the site was very RF unfriendly.  I visited the
  site personally to run surveys before any gear was deployed.  We spent the
  better part of a month with Alvarion trying to get the VL to produce a
  consistent level of throughput at any level without success.  Just as I
  began to believe we had it licked we would get another call from the client.
  The really frustrating part of all this is the throughput would vary
  depending on just how busy the other gear in the area was.  The busiest
  times of day is when we realized the link really suffered.

  I felt obligated to share our VL results here because Marlon indicated he
  was looking for a business class product.  VL is not that...at least not in
  our book.

  Best,


  Brad



  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Rich Comroe
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:35 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

  Products that are best effort [snip product name]
  end up making guys like us look bad.

  I'm confused how can anyone do better than best effort in unlicensed
  spectrum, regardless of manufacturer?

  There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
  getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

  If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a
  licensed channel can accomplish that?

  Rich
- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton 
To: 'WISPA General List' 
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not produce
the results we are after then we look at other products.  We will not tie
our hands to one brand.  No reason to.

Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on.  Yes,
  CIR
is what we sell not MIR.  That may be a good thing for us or it may turn
  out
to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to
deliver.  

Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look bad.
There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

Expectations and end results are everything to us.  We meet expectations
  or
we'd rather not do it, part ways amiability and maintain our reputation.
It's a small town!  

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90%
  of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Agreed.  But what about when you are in an environment that TDD won't work

well? Sometimes the answer is to modify your offering to what the beset 
thing is that can be delivered.
CIR service may need to be changed to MIR. In what cases is CIR really 
needed? And what areas of your business or network

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread John Scrivner
Brad, I just am getting a bit gun shy now when I see you post a 
complaint about no polarity this - no dual band that - or whatever your 
beef of the day is with VL. When you do it we inevitably get to see 
Patrick or Brad Larson go into defense mode which gets tiresome also. It 
is like some twisted tennis match that has no love. (pun intended)


It might be different if it were not the same story told over and over 
again. I am sorry I felt compelled to come down on you guys about these 
things but I am getting very annoyed and I bet I am not alone.


With that said I can also say that Alvarion does not get to bash Trango 
or Canopy or others on here any longer. Alvarion representatives will be 
called on this from now on when it happens. I have seen Trango and 
Canopy both represented in a very bad light by 2 Alvarion 
representatives on this list in the last 48 hours and it needs to stop. 
Intelligent comparisons about features and benefits are encouraged. 
Trashing one vendor over another (by a vendor) is going to stop right now.


WISPs get to complain (briefly please) about issues they have with 
vendors. We all need to know what is working and what is broken. 
Sometimes the problem can be solved by others who saw the same thing and 
know a solution. Sometimes the vendor can intervene and be the hero for 
all to see. Vendors need to use this list as a resource and see first 
hand what people are saying about their products. They  should help 
their customers here, on the list, when they can. Trying to defend every 
statement made leads to flame wars and hurt feelings and generally does 
not help solve anything. Use the list the way it was intended please. 
This is my number one issue here today.


To all of you, this list was not created to be a place where people 
complain endlessly about gear all day long just as it is not a place to 
advertise gear all day long. This is not the purpose. Say your 
complaints and attaboys clearly and mean them and then move on. If you 
are a vendor and want to compare your features and such then so be it 
but no more trashing the other guy on here. It is tiresome, childish and 
non-productive and, imho, it hurts the image of this association when 
you guys do it.


I will gladly continue this debate / discussion / flame / whatever 
offlist. I will not complain about you guys on here any longer. 
Continuing to complain over and over again about you guys on here would 
be redundant and non-productive, right? I think I have made my point 
clearly and I am ready to move on. Let's have a Happy New Year and start 
next year off right with good posts with substance that help our 
industry prosper.

Scriv




Brad Belton wrote:


My statement below is simply a fact regarding committed rate business class
service.  If Alvarion Support could have made it work then the gear would
still be up and the client would still be using it.

How many times have I said Alvarion makes a quality product?  How many times
have I said I'd love to be able to use Alvarion?  How many times have I said
this isn't about one brand vs. another, but rather results?

John, I get the feeling you just aren't reading through the posts
completely.  Clearly I do not hate VL instead I'd love to see the product
IMPROVED!  What is so wrong with that?

Best,


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:09 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 


The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Best,


Brad



   

Brad, I see your almost continuous negative posts about VL and cannot 
help but wonder why you continue to send these posts over and over and 
over to this list. I do not need to be told every day that VL is bad in 
the world according to Brad Belton. We have all heard you say it 100 
times I think. (Maybe several time that if we look at your posts to 
other lists about the same issues) Please change the record. There are 
many of us who do not agree with you that find your non-stop nitpicking 
posts to be a nuisance to this list.


We get ityou hate VL. You stated your piece and we all read about 
it, OVER and OVER. Alvarion is open to criticism just as any other 
platform and we show no favoritism but enough is enough. Please move on 
to another topic.

Respectfully,
Scriv



 


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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Rick Harnish
My sentiments exactly, I was about to type something very similar but have
had a busy morning and hadn't gotten to it yet.  I try to steer clear of
lists that allow this behavior to continue.  As moderator of this list, I
should have cracked down on this quicker than this.  I appreciate your
support during my lapse of moderating effort :)  Tone it down folks, lets
start the new year out right.

Respectfully,

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482
Founding Member of WISPA



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:03 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Brad, I just am getting a bit gun shy now when I see you post a 
complaint about no polarity this - no dual band that - or whatever your 
beef of the day is with VL. When you do it we inevitably get to see 
Patrick or Brad Larson go into defense mode which gets tiresome also. It 
is like some twisted tennis match that has no love. (pun intended)

It might be different if it were not the same story told over and over 
again. I am sorry I felt compelled to come down on you guys about these 
things but I am getting very annoyed and I bet I am not alone.

With that said I can also say that Alvarion does not get to bash Trango 
or Canopy or others on here any longer. Alvarion representatives will be 
called on this from now on when it happens. I have seen Trango and 
Canopy both represented in a very bad light by 2 Alvarion 
representatives on this list in the last 48 hours and it needs to stop. 
Intelligent comparisons about features and benefits are encouraged. 
Trashing one vendor over another (by a vendor) is going to stop right now.

WISPs get to complain (briefly please) about issues they have with 
vendors. We all need to know what is working and what is broken. 
Sometimes the problem can be solved by others who saw the same thing and 
know a solution. Sometimes the vendor can intervene and be the hero for 
all to see. Vendors need to use this list as a resource and see first 
hand what people are saying about their products. They  should help 
their customers here, on the list, when they can. Trying to defend every 
statement made leads to flame wars and hurt feelings and generally does 
not help solve anything. Use the list the way it was intended please. 
This is my number one issue here today.

To all of you, this list was not created to be a place where people 
complain endlessly about gear all day long just as it is not a place to 
advertise gear all day long. This is not the purpose. Say your 
complaints and attaboys clearly and mean them and then move on. If you 
are a vendor and want to compare your features and such then so be it 
but no more trashing the other guy on here. It is tiresome, childish and 
non-productive and, imho, it hurts the image of this association when 
you guys do it.

I will gladly continue this debate / discussion / flame / whatever 
offlist. I will not complain about you guys on here any longer. 
Continuing to complain over and over again about you guys on here would 
be redundant and non-productive, right? I think I have made my point 
clearly and I am ready to move on. Let's have a Happy New Year and start 
next year off right with good posts with substance that help our 
industry prosper.
Scriv




Brad Belton wrote:

My statement below is simply a fact regarding committed rate business class
service.  If Alvarion Support could have made it work then the gear would
still be up and the client would still be using it.

How many times have I said Alvarion makes a quality product?  How many
times
have I said I'd love to be able to use Alvarion?  How many times have I
said
this isn't about one brand vs. another, but rather results?

John, I get the feeling you just aren't reading through the posts
completely.  Clearly I do not hate VL instead I'd love to see the product
IMPROVED!  What is so wrong with that?

Best,


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:09 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  

The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Best,


Brad

 



Brad, I see your almost continuous negative posts about VL and cannot 
help but wonder why you continue to send these posts over and over and 
over to this list. I do not need to be told every day that VL is bad in 
the world according to Brad Belton. We have all heard you say it 100 
times I think. (Maybe several time that if we look at your posts to 
other lists about the same issues) Please change the record. There are 
many of us who do not agree with you that find

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Patrick Leary
Thanks for the good post and advice Mac. I hope you are enjoying an
excellent Cajun Christmas. I should tell you, our regional engineer,
Keith, is a Lu'siana boy. So much so he is now moving back home though
he was only in neighboring Texas.

Patrick 






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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Patrick Leary
Mac,

Mac,
I was reminded that you had a question at the end...here is my answer,
with the real meat, the blunt talk, towards the end.

The AUs are not actually the same as the CPE. I understand there are
some hardware differences. That said, the real reason AUs cost more than
CPE has nothing to do with actual box costs on a one-to-one basis. It is
more of a total-margin-across-a-network type economic equation. All
vendors have some form of margin loss leader and in this business that
happens on the CPE end. We've all (BWA vendors) done the equation that
says for every X CPE, 1 access unit is purchased. In understanding that
ratio, and how it changes over the life of the market and product line,
we are all hopefully able to plan and balance gross margin across a
product family. 

All professional (which is to say, FCC-certified and/or other such legal
and/or rated attributes like UL listing, ISO-certified, etc.) price this
way -- our per unit pricing on infrastructure is higher than per unit of
CPE. 

Also, over time as standards take hold (like they did in wireless LAN)
in the outside, metroscale wireless world, CPE becomes more and more
commoditized. Production of standardized commodity elements of a
solution then migrate to the commodity builders, with the more complex
and higher MTBF infrastructure pieces still built by the experts, the
specialty suppliers. The Alvarion's of the world are not commodity
builders. We are among the innovators and inventors, the guys that pour
tens and even hundreds of millions into RD, then hope to see return on
that investment mostly by selling infrastructure as the market fully
matures.

I'm not sure that's the answer you want, but it's accurate.

If your question is why does ours cost more than others, that's another
question, but certainly investment, quality and durability of
components, ISO-rated manufacturing processes, etc. contribute. But even
that said, few things in this world are priced based solely on the cost
of the parts and the manufacturing and handling. That's part of it, but
everyone tries to price in the end based on value offered. 

Something that is well-priced will be accepted by many, rejected by
some. Something poorly priced will be accepted by all, which means money
is likely being left on the table, or rejected by all, which means the
maker is too proud of their goods or have not otherwise convinced the
market of the value. From a WISP standpoint, I think Alvarion got damned
close to being too proud and certainly did not do the best job of
convincing WISPs of the value of products like BreezeACCESS VL. That's
why I asked to be allowed to personally re-focus on the WISP space and
from that comes the AlvarionCOMNET program. With that, I believe we are
right closer to the being accepted by all end of the spectrum and I
know some internally here think maybe I've gone too far. It's my gamble
and my ass on the line and I'm thankful for the responsibility and
appreciative my boss invested his confidence.

By the way, the AUS access unit model, which was released on the market
last month, is only $2,595 list...

Regards,

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 12:41 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Patrick,

   You are a better man than I am - no doubt! You have answered seven
thousand questions, retorted seven thousand fallacies and straightened
out
another seven thousand myths. I have been a consultant for Trango for
the
last two years and I do know every in and every out of Trango gear. I
can
tell you what it will do and what it will not do, what to expect and
what
not to look for by just looking at your coverage area. It doesn't
matter
if it's 900 MHz, 5.x or 2.4GHz - - I can tell you some stuff. I have
built
Muni networks with Trango and I have built my personal network with
Trango
and a menagerie of different gear. I can also tell you and the rest of
the
world about Alvarion.

  I bought another WISP in a distant town and when I bought them out
they
were a 100% Alvarion network. That was my first experience with
Alvarion. I
will tell you that they had the 3mbps gear up, they had a 99% business
network and that they had 0% LOS to any client. I never bothered to
check
out their clients or how they were installed, but jumped at the
opportunity
to buy them out at a great price. When I did get the deal done I soon
realized the gear they were running far exceeded what I had in store. I
did
have to place 900MHz gear to replace the Alvarion 3mbps FHSS to
establish
and maintain those connections. These folks didn't know sheet from
shinola,
but they had a nice WISP and all they could say was Alvarion. They
never
bothered to further themselves education wise, but called on Trango to
buy
more

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-27 Thread Brad Belton
Hello Rich,

Exactly my point and exactly why users operating in the unlicensed spectrum
need as many tools available at their disposal as possible.  My criticism
and suggestions have been to illuminate just those features as extremely
valuable to guys like me that sell CIR not MIR.  

Frankly the DP  DB features should be extremely valuable to any unlicensed
operator regardless of the business plan.  How can it be that greater
flexibility as I have described isn't going to better a product?

Just like many believe ATPC should be mandatory on all future unlicensed
products I believe DP  DB should be mandatory!  Not going to happen, but
the products that do offer these features will be superior in their
abilities to avoid and/or work around interference.

Best,


Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Comroe
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 10:56 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

There's no unlicensed product which guarantees business class services in
interference.  To suggest product A does and product B doesn't is nonsense.
I think you've done a good job of describing why you think some products do
a better job of than others.  That's fair.  Sharing experiences where one
product did better than another is fair.  I love reading your posts and
others comparing the attributes which impact on this.  It's educational and
I get insights into equipment that I haven't personally had direct
experience.  But the constant bashing that some product will guarantee
business class services in interference and another won't is tiresome, and
just turns people off from the good content that people appreciate.

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brad Belton 
  To: 'WISPA General List' 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 7:26 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  Certainly you can do committed rate business class services with
unlicensed
  products.  WMUX, Terabridge, Trango just to name a few.  Are they
  interchangeable in application?  Nope, they require you use the right
  product for the job at hand.  What may work well on one project may not on
  the next.

  Interference typically isn't temporary...at least not around these parts!
  No, you need to engineer the link with enough forethought and available
  tools on hand to give yourself options in the event a link does begin to
  incur interference.

  In our experience the VL was erratic in its ability to consistently
produce
  the same end result day in and day out.  Alvarion, me and the third party
  client all knew before hand the site was very RF unfriendly.  I visited
the
  site personally to run surveys before any gear was deployed.  We spent the
  better part of a month with Alvarion trying to get the VL to produce a
  consistent level of throughput at any level without success.  Just as I
  began to believe we had it licked we would get another call from the
client.
  The really frustrating part of all this is the throughput would vary
  depending on just how busy the other gear in the area was.  The busiest
  times of day is when we realized the link really suffered.

  I felt obligated to share our VL results here because Marlon indicated he
  was looking for a business class product.  VL is not that...at least not
in
  our book.

  Best,


  Brad



  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Rich Comroe
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:35 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

  Products that are best effort [snip product name]
  end up making guys like us look bad.

  I'm confused how can anyone do better than best effort in unlicensed
  spectrum, regardless of manufacturer?

  There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
  getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

  If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a
  licensed channel can accomplish that?

  Rich
- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton 
To: 'WISPA General List' 
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:17 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not
produce
the results we are after then we look at other products.  We will not
tie
our hands to one brand.  No reason to.

Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on.  Yes,
  CIR
is what we sell not MIR.  That may be a good thing for us or it may turn
  out
to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to
deliver.  

Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look
bad.
There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
getting a call saying they are getting something less than

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Got that part.  I still didn't see in there anywhere, in plain English that 
a neophyte like me can understand, is this a polling or csmak product?

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:54 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Marlon, I'll answer this with a re-post of a September post that
explains, in part, why VL is not just regular CSMA:

trim 


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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

Grin  Keep your coax tools to yourself sir!

As for the pipe, I've used both the equinox and pac wireless.  Pac has a 
much stronger product, hands down.  Unless the other guys finally caught 
up.


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


HAH, yeah, I was digging rather irritatedly around the van looking for a 
10

mm wrench on Monday as well... same thing.

I normally do not carry metric tools out on my install rig...

Early in the year, I'm going to pick up some Equinox universal mounts.
Same long arm, heavy pipe...

No 10 mm nuts... and a LOT less expensive.

I'll split a case with ya, if you want :)

Might even drive up there and stick a few needles in coax, if you want :)

ok ok, I won't.   :)

Mark



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East 
Washington

email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of
Alvarion I do have to side with him on this.  I just called Ben Moore at
PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me.
They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things.  Now I have to 
carry

FOUR tools up the ladder.

Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm?  Those are the same size  People

have
the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep 
screwing

with.

If there's a standard out there, please stick with it.  We have enough
things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange

default

username/password combos!

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:43 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to
figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to
manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone
complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line?

It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to
bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of
choice.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin
configuration.  Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45
connector doesn't fit through the weather seal!  Just about a millimeter
too
small!

When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin
color
code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it?

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought
there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated.
That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not
require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable,
connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas.

So what's the impact overall to you business model under the
AlvarionCOMNET program?

Pat
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
before the big price drop- Same high

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

Mark, 48vdc is the poe ieee standard.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 7:51 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


The neg 48vDC is simply an option (standard 100-240 vAC is the other
option) for powering of the rack mounted chassis. In the telecom space
it's very common that folks have racks powered that way. The CPE's
themselves are not 48vDC. On the CPE 54 vDC is sent via PoE up to the
ODU from the IDU.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:38 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Patrick... I find the 48V power thing a HUGE problem.

almost every site I have now is 12V powered...




+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East
Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



Marlon,

You say most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them...  In
response to that reality we created a version of the VL AU for rural
markets. We came to realize that the cost of a regular of VL AU where
likely user counts are low simply was not economical. So we came up

with

the AUS. Three VL sectors using the AUS will support 75 users. An AUS
(list of $2,595) has a limit of 25 attachments, but it can be upgraded
if the demographics will support it; it is otherwise no different from

a

regular VL AU. Three AUS sectors will cost you about $6k, so about

2.4x

your more modest three sector arrangement. The install will be easier,
so that will make up a little (unless you don't count your time as a
cost). But that will also support about 100mbps net so you can figure
the math in terms of what can be delivered to subs at your chosen
oversubscription. And you know it will do that at range LOS since the
CPE has an integrated 21dBi MTI.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On

Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:55 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

It's much closer Patrick.  That's for sure.

Let run some numbers though.

Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap:
$450ish.  Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at

ranges

up
to 10 miles.  1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles.
Sector antenna, $400.
Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and
antenna.
This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily.
If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop,
battery
backup, switch, cables etc.  If we're lucky that'll even include
backhaul.

For CPE the cost is gonna be around:
15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish
18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish
$12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good
ones
from PacWireless)
$10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot)
Misc. nuts and bolts $20.
We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor.

Connectorized version, $180ish
24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew

cast

magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones))
Mount, $12
Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20
Cable, $10 to $20.

This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done.

Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too.

But


I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of

the

above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural
areas.

Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them.  Many are under

10.

Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100.  Last year

we


installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were
upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs.  This with
basically no
marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition.  Per
customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive
services.

Our network now spans around 6000 square miles.  It's taken over 20
sites
with nearly 30 ap's to do this.  Our growth potential

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Patrick Leary
I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte
never...

CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0
and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations
can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can
release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in
VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as
contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more
sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:13 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Got that part.  I still didn't see in there anywhere, in plain English
that 
a neophyte like me can understand, is this a polling or csmak product?
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:54 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Marlon, I'll answer this with a re-post of a September post that
explains, in part, why VL is not just regular CSMA:

trim 

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
They're about the same.

Pac does have the extra-heavy and extra long version, and I don't know if
Equinox matches that one or not.


+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Grin  Keep your coax tools to yourself sir!

 As for the pipe, I've used both the equinox and pac wireless.  Pac has a
 much stronger product, hands down.  Unless the other guys finally caught
 up.

 Marlon
 (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
 www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



 - Original Message - 
 From: Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:36 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  HAH, yeah, I was digging rather irritatedly around the van looking for a
  10
  mm wrench on Monday as well... same thing.
 
  I normally do not carry metric tools out on my install rig...
 
  Early in the year, I'm going to pick up some Equinox universal mounts.
  Same long arm, heavy pipe...
 
  No 10 mm nuts... and a LOT less expensive.
 
  I'll split a case with ya, if you want :)
 
  Might even drive up there and stick a few needles in coax, if you want
:)
 
  ok ok, I won't.   :)
 
  Mark
 
 
 
  +++
  neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East
  Washington
  email me at mark at neofast dot net
  541-969-8200
  Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net
 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
 
 
  Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of
  Alvarion I do have to side with him on this.  I just called Ben Moore
at
  PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent
me.
  They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things.  Now I have to
  carry
  FOUR tools up the ladder.
 
  Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm?  Those are the same size  People
  have
  the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep
  screwing
  with.
 
  If there's a standard out there, please stick with it.  We have enough
  things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange
  default
  username/password combos!
 
  Marlon
  (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
  (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
  42846865 (icq)And I run my own
wisp!
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
  www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam
 
 
 
  - Original Message - 
  From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:43 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
 
 
  The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to
  figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem
to
  manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone
  complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line?
 
  It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to
  bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor
of
  choice.
 
  Patrick Leary
  AVP WISP Markets
  Alvarion, Inc.
  o: 650.314.2628
  c: 760.580.0080
  Vonage: 650.641.1243
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Brad Belton
  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM
  To: 'WISPA General List'
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
 
  Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin
  configuration.  Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45
  connector doesn't fit through the weather seal!  Just about a
millimeter
  too
  small!
 
  When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin
  color
  code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it?
 
  Best,
 
 
  Brad
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Patrick Leary
  Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived
 
  Thanks for the validation Marty. I

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

Got it.  Thanks.

I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too 
difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything with a 
wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But sucks 
when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism.  That's (my 
personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care who's 
already out there, when it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that to, 
just without sync'ing the AP's.


My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever 
collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many 
other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are other 
devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance 
mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.


Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type 
products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as long as 
we can keep things that way.


These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and 
uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a 
product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some 
of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.


However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network 
that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates 
your system as well as you possibly can.  That seems to be the type of trick 
that just can't be taught.  Your network designer either gets it or he 
doesn't.  Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in 
the eye and gave them several choices for site locations.  Only to have them 
pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable.


80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.  Either 
outright or in a lack of forethought manner.


Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  Give it 
the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring.  Then 
we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in.


Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. 
Why was it important for collocation then but not now?


Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte
never...

CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0
and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations
can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can
release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in
VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as
contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more
sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:13 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Got that part.  I still didn't see in there anywhere, in plain English
that
a neophyte like me can understand, is this a polling or csmak product?
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:54 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Marlon, I'll answer this with a re-post of a September post that
explains, in part, why VL is not just regular CSMA:

trim

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Patrick Leary
This is my point Marlon, your beef is based on erroneous assumptions
because you are still are talking like it is a basic wifi radio. It is
not. Have you not read any of the posts about how the CSAM is able to be
modified or adjustable? As I have said and I'll try to say it again, you
can adjust many ways. The mechanism you are used with all your low end
stuff to leaves you entirely at the mercy of others...you have no
ability to make adjustments. With VL you do. Polling in VL would BE A
DOWNGRADE.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Got it.  Thanks.

I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too 
difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything
with a 
wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But
sucks 
when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism.  That's
(my 
personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care
who's 
already out there, when it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that
to, 
just without sync'ing the AP's.

My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever 
collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't
many 
other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are
other 
devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision
avoidance 
mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.

Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi
type 
products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as long
as 
we can keep things that way.

These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability
and 
uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of
a 
product is less important to me than having a product that can survive
some 
of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.

However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a
network 
that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations)
isolates 
your system as well as you possibly can.  That seems to be the type of
trick 
that just can't be taught.  Your network designer either gets it or he 
doesn't.  Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy
right in 
the eye and gave them several choices for site locations.  Only to have
them 
pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable.

80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.
Either 
outright or in a lack of forethought manner.

Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  Give
it 
the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring.
Then 
we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves
in.

Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II
line. 
Why was it important for collocation then but not now?

Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte
never...

CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0
and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations
can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can
release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in
VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as
contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more
sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:13 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Got that part.  I still didn't see in there anywhere, in plain English
that
a neophyte like me can understand, is this a polling or csmak product?
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Brad Belton
My thoughts exactly.  

If the VL had a mechanism to tune out noise and a few other tools (dual
pol - dual band) that would enable the user avoid noise then it is possible
there simply would not be a better PtMP LE product available today.  Without
those critical elements the VL is just not able to perform consistently in
RF hostile environments.

The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Best,


Brad





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Got it.  Thanks.

I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too 
difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything with a

wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But sucks

when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism.  That's (my

personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care who's 
already out there, when it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that to,

just without sync'ing the AP's.

My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever 
collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many

other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are other 
devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance 
mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.

Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type

products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as long as 
we can keep things that way.

These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and 
uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a 
product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some 
of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.

However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network 
that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates 
your system as well as you possibly can.  That seems to be the type of trick

that just can't be taught.  Your network designer either gets it or he 
doesn't.  Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in

the eye and gave them several choices for site locations.  Only to have them

pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable.

80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.  Either 
outright or in a lack of forethought manner.

Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  Give it 
the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring.  Then 
we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in.

Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. 
Why was it important for collocation then but not now?

Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte
never...

CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0
and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations
can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can
release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in
VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as
contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more
sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:13 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Got that part.  I still didn't see in there anywhere, in plain English
that
a neophyte like me can understand, is this a polling or csmak product?
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Brad Belton
I don't think Marlon is asserting the VL is simply another wifi radio
(even though it does use a wifi Atheros chip with CSAM), but more so that
the VL offers no method for a user to avoid or overcome noise.  Simply
lowering modulation, slowing down and retransmitting over and over until the
packet gets through is not an acceptable solution for committed rate
business class service.

Best,


Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:01 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

This is my point Marlon, your beef is based on erroneous assumptions
because you are still are talking like it is a basic wifi radio. It is
not. Have you not read any of the posts about how the CSAM is able to be
modified or adjustable? As I have said and I'll try to say it again, you
can adjust many ways. The mechanism you are used with all your low end
stuff to leaves you entirely at the mercy of others...you have no
ability to make adjustments. With VL you do. Polling in VL would BE A
DOWNGRADE.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Got it.  Thanks.

I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too 
difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything
with a 
wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But
sucks 
when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism.  That's
(my 
personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care
who's 
already out there, when it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that
to, 
just without sync'ing the AP's.

My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever 
collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't
many 
other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are
other 
devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision
avoidance 
mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.

Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi
type 
products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as long
as 
we can keep things that way.

These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability
and 
uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of
a 
product is less important to me than having a product that can survive
some 
of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.

However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a
network 
that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations)
isolates 
your system as well as you possibly can.  That seems to be the type of
trick 
that just can't be taught.  Your network designer either gets it or he 
doesn't.  Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy
right in 
the eye and gave them several choices for site locations.  Only to have
them 
pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable.

80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.
Either 
outright or in a lack of forethought manner.

Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  Give
it 
the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring.
Then 
we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves
in.

Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II
line. 
Why was it important for collocation then but not now?

Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte
never...

CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0
and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations
can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can
release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in
VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as
contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more
sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Brad Belton
I don't think Marlon is asserting the VL is simply another wifi radio
(even though it does use a wifi Atheros chip with CSAM), but more so that
the VL offers no method for a user to avoid or overcome noise.  Simply
lowering modulation, slowing down and retransmitting over and over until the
packet gets through is not an acceptable solution for committed rate
business class service.

Best,


Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:01 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

This is my point Marlon, your beef is based on erroneous assumptions
because you are still are talking like it is a basic wifi radio. It is
not. Have you not read any of the posts about how the CSAM is able to be
modified or adjustable? As I have said and I'll try to say it again, you
can adjust many ways. The mechanism you are used with all your low end
stuff to leaves you entirely at the mercy of others...you have no
ability to make adjustments. With VL you do. Polling in VL would BE A
DOWNGRADE.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Got it.  Thanks.

I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too 
difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything
with a 
wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But
sucks 
when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism.  That's
(my 
personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care
who's 
already out there, when it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that
to, 
just without sync'ing the AP's.

My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever 
collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't
many 
other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are
other 
devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision
avoidance 
mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.

Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi
type 
products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as long
as 
we can keep things that way.

These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability
and 
uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of
a 
product is less important to me than having a product that can survive
some 
of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.

However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a
network 
that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations)
isolates 
your system as well as you possibly can.  That seems to be the type of
trick 
that just can't be taught.  Your network designer either gets it or he 
doesn't.  Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy
right in 
the eye and gave them several choices for site locations.  Only to have
them 
pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable.

80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.
Either 
outright or in a lack of forethought manner.

Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  Give
it 
the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring.
Then 
we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves
in.

Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II
line. 
Why was it important for collocation then but not now?

Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte
never...

CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0
and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations
can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can
release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in
VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as
contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more
sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Brad Belton
Sorry for the double post...compoooter issues today I guess!

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WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

LOL,

Yeah, I read that Patrick.  Guess I'll have to see it to actually understand 
it fully.


I think of it more like talking in a crowded room.  The background noise 
makes it hard to talk.  We can make up for that in several ways.


One, what we usually do today, everyone keeps their voices down (max of 4 
watts :-), we cup our hands over our ears (directionalizing our antennas), 
and when someone beside us is talking, we wait for them to stop before we 
start.


Well, all it takes is one jerk in the room to start talking a little louder, 
then everyone around him has to crank up the volume.  It keeps going till 
everyone is talking as loudly as they can.  Then we've moved from the dining 
room to the bar room :-).


Once in the bar room the old tricks just don't work as well as they used to. 
We can adjust to our little heart's content, but in the end, we just move to 
the talk when we want to talk model.


I actually watched that with some amusement last week.  Had a group of 7 or 
8 people around a table in a back room.  All drinking beer and eating pizza. 
The guys were talking about elk hunting and the gals were talking about some 
inane topic that I didn't pay attention to.  grin  It was funny.  each group 
was talking clear across the table, each with it's own topics and each just 
talking over the other.  Me, I was stuck in the middle of it and I couldn't 
track either conversation worth a hoot!  I caught a little here and a little 
there, from both sides.


I'd have happily downgraded to the ability to track at least one 
conversation correctly :-).


Not picking on the product or the methodology.  I'm just tossing some ideas 
against the wall to see what'll stick.  If some of my ideas prove valuable, 
use them.  If not, forget them!  grin


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


This is my point Marlon, your beef is based on erroneous assumptions
because you are still are talking like it is a basic wifi radio. It is
not. Have you not read any of the posts about how the CSAM is able to be
modified or adjustable? As I have said and I'll try to say it again, you
can adjust many ways. The mechanism you are used with all your low end
stuff to leaves you entirely at the mercy of others...you have no
ability to make adjustments. With VL you do. Polling in VL would BE A
DOWNGRADE.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Got it.  Thanks.

I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too
difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything
with a
wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But
sucks
when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism.  That's
(my
personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care
who's
already out there, when it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that
to,
just without sync'ing the AP's.

My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever
collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't
many
other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are
other
devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision
avoidance
mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.

Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi
type
products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as long
as
we can keep things that way.

These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability
and
uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of
a
product is less important to me than having a product that can survive
some
of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.

However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a
network
that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations)
isolates
your system as well as you possibly can.  That seems to be the type of
trick
that just can't be taught.  Your network designer either gets it or he
doesn't.  Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy
right in
the eye and gave them several choices for site locations.  Only to have
them
pick something completely different, and sometimes

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Tom DeReggi
Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual horizontal 
Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?).
Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even 
considering the 10Mhz channel option.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist  Motorola is extremely conservative on
the spec sheet.  4.21 Mbps Net typical where you get that?  I got
Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the
most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between 
performance

and interference rejection.  And don't negate the fact that GPS is a must
have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I 
can

play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell
carriers rely on GPS ?

Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels

Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower



Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Jon,

With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention
things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing
with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency
needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much
more spectrum to work with.

Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL
efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the
fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to
keep it from stepping on itself.

And speaking about efficiency, even the Canopy Advantage is a very
inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but
Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to
1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical
over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well
over 1 mile.

In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL
networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion
that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to
assert in fact.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular

deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of

that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS
capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or
N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station
communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all
use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a
good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or colocated
deployment.

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Tom DeReggi wrote:


Charles,

Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty,



what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day
with all things considered.
The value of consistent availability and right out of the box
deployment is PRICELIST!  This doesn't only save cost of installer
labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition.

I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck.



I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being



a stronger residential play.   I recently have done a lot with
War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because



I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building,
and great testing tools with things like Iperf  BUILT-IN able to test
Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops
increase as the backbone mesh grows.  Alvarion is also a great product



for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have
a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots.
Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new
low price, is in its residential application. The difference between
$185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time savings in
operations.  The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is
unmatched.  What VL does

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Brad Belton
Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have something
worth taking note about.  Throw in dual band ability and now you're on the
right track.

As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a VL
radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so.  Sounds like fun!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual horizontal 
Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?).
Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even 
considering the 10Mhz channel option.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist  Motorola is extremely conservative on
 the spec sheet.  4.21 Mbps Net typical where you get that?  I got
 Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the
 most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between 
 performance
 and interference rejection.  And don't negate the fact that GPS is a must
 have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I 
 can
 play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell
 carriers rely on GPS ?

 Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels

 Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower



 Gino A. Villarini
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Patrick Leary
 Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 Jon,

 With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention
 things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing
 with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency
 needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much
 more spectrum to work with.

 Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL
 efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the
 fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to
 keep it from stepping on itself.

 And speaking about efficiency, even the Canopy Advantage is a very
 inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but
 Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to
 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical
 over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well
 over 1 mile.

 In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL
 networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion
 that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to
 assert in fact.

 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Jon Langeler
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular

 deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of

 that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS
 capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or
 N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station
 communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all
 use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a
 good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or colocated
 deployment.

 Jon Langeler
 Michwave Tech.

 Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Charles,

 Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty,

 what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day
 with all things considered.
 The value of consistent availability and right out of the box
 deployment is PRICELIST!  This doesn't only save cost of installer
 labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition.

 I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck.

 I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being

 a stronger residential play.   I recently have done a lot with
 War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because

 I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building,
 and great testing

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Tom DeReggi

marlon,

I have to disagree, and state the opposite.
I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be able 
to survive the noise, with better SNRs.
The problem occurs when DSSS is not enough to get above the noise.  When the 
noise is other OFDM or Wifi contention gear, possibly louder than your own 
signal, using CSMA/CA actually performs much better in the severe 
interference environments.  The reason is TDD is guaranteed to transmit 
during the noisy period, some percentage of time. With CSMA/CA the radio 
waits for FREE time, or at minimum retransmits until it gets FREE spectrum. 
This can increase latency significantly, but it does reduce packet loss, 
which is more important.


TDD w/ ARQ, can be even better, provided one has a high end radio, that can 
be engineered for both ARQ and optimal link quality. But not all ARQ radio 
can be optimized for best RSSI.  I'd take 8 db of higher RSSI, than ARQ, 
because their is no need for ARQ, if you are adequately above the noise.


Alvarion's strength is it empowers an operator to engineer a more durable 
link, based on antenna quality and flexibility.




Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



Got it.  Thanks.

I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too 
difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything with 
a wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But 
sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. 
That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It 
doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. 
Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's.


My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever 
collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't 
many other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are 
other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision 
avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.


Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi 
type products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as 
long as we can keep things that way.


These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and 
uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a 
product is less important to me than having a product that can survive 
some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.


However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network 
that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates 
your system as well as you possibly can.  That seems to be the type of 
trick that just can't be taught.  Your network designer either gets it or 
he doesn't.  Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy 
right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations.  Only 
to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes 
unworkable.


80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.  Either 
outright or in a lack of forethought manner.


Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  Give 
it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring. 
Then we could optimize performance for any environment that we find 
ourselves in.


Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. 
Why was it important for collocation then but not now?


Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte
never...

CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0
and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations
can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can
release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in
VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as
contention window duration, contention levels, etc. It is more
sophisticated than your basic polling and more efficient.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Tom DeReggi

The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.


Agreed.  But what about when you are in an environment that TDD won't work 
well? Sometimes the answer is to modify your offering to what the beset 
thing is that can be delivered.
CIR service may need to be changed to MIR. In what cases is CIR really 
needed? And what areas of your business or network also prevent the CIR Full 
QOS guarantee from being realized?


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


My thoughts exactly.

If the VL had a mechanism to tune out noise and a few other tools (dual
pol - dual band) that would enable the user avoid noise then it is possible
there simply would not be a better PtMP LE product available today.  Without
those critical elements the VL is just not able to perform consistently in
RF hostile environments.

The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Best,


Brad





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Got it.  Thanks.

I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too
difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything with a

wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But sucks

when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism.  That's (my

personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care who's
already out there, when it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that to,

just without sync'ing the AP's.

My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever
collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many

other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are other
devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance
mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.

Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type

products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as long as
we can keep things that way.

These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and
uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a
product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some
of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.

However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network
that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates
your system as well as you possibly can.  That seems to be the type of trick

that just can't be taught.  Your network designer either gets it or he
doesn't.  Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in

the eye and gave them several choices for site locations.  Only to have them

pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable.

80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.  Either
outright or in a lack of forethought manner.

Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  Give it
the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring.  Then
we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in.

Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line.
Why was it important for collocation then but not now?

Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon. A jolly elf maybe, neophyte
never...

CSMA/CA. But the MAC has been substantially altered, especially with 4.0
and the WLP (wireless link prioritization) feature where all stations
can be made to wait while those stations with spooled up voice can
release their packets regardless of where they are in the cell. Also, in
VL an operator can adjust numerous values of the CSMA/CA, such as
contention window duration

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Patrick Leary
Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will
discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next!

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have
something
worth taking note about.  Throw in dual band ability and now you're on
the
right track.

As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a
VL
radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so.  Sounds like
fun!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual
horizontal 
Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?).
Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even 
considering the 10Mhz channel option.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist  Motorola is extremely
conservative on
 the spec sheet.  4.21 Mbps Net typical where you get that?  I got
 Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be
the
 most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between 
 performance
 and interference rejection.  And don't negate the fact that GPS is a
must
 have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and
I 
 can
 play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell
 carriers rely on GPS ?

 Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels

 Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower



 Gino A. Villarini
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Patrick Leary
 Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 Jon,

 With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention
 things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are
dealing
 with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency
 needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much
 more spectrum to work with.

 Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL
 efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of
the
 fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used
to
 keep it from stepping on itself.

 And speaking about efficiency, even the Canopy Advantage is a very
 inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but
 Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max
(to
 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical
 over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that
well
 over 1 mile.

 In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL
 networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion
 that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to
 assert in fact.

 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Jon Langeler
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a
cellular

 deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware
of

 that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS
 capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off
or
 N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station
 communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc.
all
 use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a
 good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or colocated
 deployment.

 Jon Langeler
 Michwave Tech.

 Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Charles,

 Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly
flexibilty,

 what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day
 with all things considered.
 The value of consistent availability and right out of the box
 deployment is PRICELIST!  This doesn't only save cost of installer
 labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition.

 I'll share something

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Patrick Leary
...okay, I went off the deep end there. It was wrong of me to insult the
competition because I'm allowing myself to be baited. Sorry folks. Sorry
Trango. Ghrr.

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:12 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will
discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next!

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have
something
worth taking note about.  Throw in dual band ability and now you're on
the
right track.

As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a
VL
radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so.  Sounds like
fun!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual
horizontal 
Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?).
Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even 
considering the 10Mhz channel option.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist  Motorola is extremely
conservative on
 the spec sheet.  4.21 Mbps Net typical where you get that?  I got
 Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be
the
 most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between 
 performance
 and interference rejection.  And don't negate the fact that GPS is a
must
 have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and
I 
 can
 play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell
 carriers rely on GPS ?

 Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels

 Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower



 Gino A. Villarini
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Patrick Leary
 Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 Jon,

 With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention
 things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are
dealing
 with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency
 needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much
 more spectrum to work with.

 Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL
 efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of
the
 fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used
to
 keep it from stepping on itself.

 And speaking about efficiency, even the Canopy Advantage is a very
 inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but
 Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max
(to
 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical
 over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that
well
 over 1 mile.

 In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL
 networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion
 that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to
 assert in fact.

 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Jon Langeler
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a
cellular

 deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware
of

 that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS
 capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off
or
 N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station
 communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc.
all
 use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a
 good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or colocated
 deployment.

 Jon Langeler
 Michwave Tech.

 Tom DeReggi wrote

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Jon Langeler
Marlon, if that's the type of product your looking for, I'll save you 
the hassle of looking (and you can come back to this post in 5-10 years 
to make your conclusions on my recommendation) because your best best is 
to go with canopy or wait until a 5GHz 802.16e solution comes out(not 
likely soon). If Alvarion would get an actual ENGINEER to debate about 
their RF technology compared to others on-list, that would be the day :-)


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:


Got it.  Thanks.

I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too 
difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything 
with a wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for 
collocation.  But sucks when there are products around that don't 
follow that mechanism.  That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went 
with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care who's already out there, when 
it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that to, just without 
sync'ing the AP's.


My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever 
collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there 
aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, 
when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't 
have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy 
price in performance.


Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any 
wifi type products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be 
polling as long as we can keep things that way.


These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability 
and uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% 
out of a product is less important to me than having a product that 
can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.


However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a 
network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap 
locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can.  That 
seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught.  Your network 
designer either gets it or he doesn't.  Heck, I've even done 
consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them 
several choices for site locations.  Only to have them pick something 
completely different, and sometimes unworkable.


80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.  
Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner.


Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  
Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of 
token ring.  Then we could optimize performance for any environment 
that we find ourselves in.


Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II 
line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now?


Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



--
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
oh oh.  This one's gonna be fun.  I'll warn ya now Tom, this is nothing 
personal.


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:53 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



marlon,

I have to disagree, and state the opposite.
I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be 
able to survive the noise, with better SNRs.


OK, there's a problem here.  Lets make sure we're talking the same acronyms 
and such.


TDD = Time Division Duplex.  In our case, this part really doesn't mean much 
of anything.

DSSS = Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum,
SNR = Signal to Noise Ratio.  This is the one that you fine tune on a CB 
radio to get the his to go away.


For these and many more kindly take advantage of work I did years ago:
http://www.odessaoffice.com/wireless/definitions.htm


The problem occurs when DSSS is not enough to get above the noise.


This is a problem when using DSSS, FHSS, OFDM, FM or any other modulation 
scheme we're using today.



 When the noise is other OFDM


OFDM is NOT DSSS or FHSS.  It's Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing. 
I totally don't know what that is but I want it!  roflol



or Wifi contention gear,


WiFi is an interoperability standard based on IEEE standards.  Today WiFi 
can be either DSSS or OFDM, I'm not aware of any WiFi FHSS product.  802.11b 
is DSS, 802.11a and g are OFDM.


possibly louder than your own signal, using CSMA/CA actually performs much 
better in the severe interference environments.


Define better.  No, I'm not trying to pull a Clinton here.  If you want to 
compare DSS to FHSS then, yes in certain types of noisy conditions, DSS can 
overcome the noise by spreading it's data packets over a larger area.  It's 
able to rebuild damaged data packets or to just ignore some times of noise 
that would cause an FHSS signal to back off and retransmit on a different 
freqency, causing a rise in latency and a drop in speed.


A DSSS signal spreads the data over (in the WiFi example you site) 22 MHz of 
spectrum.  An FHSS signal spreads that same data over 1 MHz, but it hops 
around interference.


I remember seeing a couple of graphs years ago.  They showed an ever 
increasing noise level and it's impact on DSSS and FHSS.  The DSSS stayed at 
or near full speed longer than the FHSS but once the noise got too high it 
totally dropped off line.


The FHSS system, on the other hand, showed the noise as an overall slowdown 
but kept on going long after that DSSS system rolled over and wet on it's 
self.  I'm hearing mixed results about OFDM.  Some say it works better yet 
in interference, some say it dies much sooner.  I really don't know.  It 
would be nice to see someone run all three systems in a lab so we could see 
the same tests.  In fact it would be fun to see that same test with several 
proprietary systems too.  If only I had more time and money!  That's exactly 
the kind of tinkering that I live for!


The reason is TDD is guaranteed to transmit during the noisy period, some 
percentage of time.


Nope.  Not true at all.  Been there, done that.  I have more than one 
T-shirt.  It TOTALLY depends on the type of noise and it's levels in 
relation to your carrier to interference ratios (also known as SNR).


If you have narrow band interference DSSS can (and OFDM should) work around 
it.  It'll be able to recreate the missing data bits and deliver a good data 
packet.  Or, if the noise is far enough off of the center frequency (the 
middle part of the 22 MHz wide channel) it'll likely just completely ignore 
the noise.  Lets say, for example that you are running a WiFi based system 
and your customers radio is hitting your AP in the B mode with a -65 signal. 
WiFi radios need around a 15 dB c/i radio.  So as long as your noise level 
was below -80 this system should work pretty well.  If the noise hit -75 
though I'd expect to see some service degredation.


Canopy requires a roughly 3dB c/i ratio.  It would still be working at a -69 
dB noise floor.  Hit -65 with the noise, and neither of them will work.


With CSMA/CA the radio waits for FREE time, or at minimum retransmits 
until it gets FREE spectrum. This can increase latency significantly, but 
it does reduce packet loss, which is more important.


Remember, CSMA/CA is WiFi  That's the backoff mechanism that makes it so 
easy to co-locate so many systems in a confined area like an office or 
appartment complex.


The problem one runs into is that when there is a noise floor above your c/i 
there is NEVER free air to transmit in.




TDD w/ ARQ,


Now we're talking

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Brad Larson
Jon, LOL. Our engineers don't watch these threads and they probably
never will and I wouldn't want them to. It's funny that this thread was
started by a very happy Alvarion customer whom just broke the 1,000 cpe
threshold with VL and he's doing the very things that aren't supposed to
be possible according to some posting on this topic!! And the funny part
of it is, VL displaced one of the products mentioned...performance went
up, truck rolls went down, and he sleeps better at night!! This thread
reminds me of a competitor slinging mud 2 years ago saying we couldn't
build a 3 tower network in 5 square miles to connect 2,400
buildings...Blah blah sync sync... LOL. We not only built that
network but it's a prime example of how if you KNOW WHAT YOURE DOING
and are TRAINED AND CERTIFIED the product works like a charm. 

And if a wisp is building a scaling voip/data network canopy is not such
a great solution so the hassle is in the details. Brad

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:06 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Marlon, if that's the type of product your looking for, I'll save you 
the hassle of looking (and you can come back to this post in 5-10 years 
to make your conclusions on my recommendation) because your best best is

to go with canopy or wait until a 5GHz 802.16e solution comes out(not 
likely soon). If Alvarion would get an actual ENGINEER to debate about 
their RF technology compared to others on-list, that would be the day
:-)

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:

 Got it.  Thanks.

 I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too 
 difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything 
 with a wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for 
 collocation.  But sucks when there are products around that don't 
 follow that mechanism.  That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went 
 with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care who's already out there, when 
 it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that to, just without 
 sync'ing the AP's.

 My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever

 collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there 
 aren't many other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, 
 when there are other devices in the area, especially those that don't 
 have a collision avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy 
 price in performance.

 Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any 
 wifi type products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be 
 polling as long as we can keep things that way.

 These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability 
 and uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% 
 out of a product is less important to me than having a product that 
 can survive some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors
play.

 However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a 
 network that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap 
 locations) isolates your system as well as you possibly can.  That 
 seems to be the type of trick that just can't be taught.  Your network

 designer either gets it or he doesn't.  Heck, I've even done 
 consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in the eye and gave them 
 several choices for site locations.  Only to have them pick something 
 completely different, and sometimes unworkable.

 80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.  
 Either outright or in a lack of forethought manner.

 Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  
 Give it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of 
 token ring.  Then we could optimize performance for any environment 
 that we find ourselves in.

 Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II 
 line. Why was it important for collocation then but not now?

 Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
 Marlon
 (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
 42846865 (icq)And I run my own
wisp!
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
 www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam


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Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Brad Belton
Well, they didn't give Mel Gibson the benefit of the doubt.  Why should we
you?

grin


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

...okay, I went off the deep end there. It was wrong of me to insult the
competition because I'm allowing myself to be baited. Sorry folks. Sorry
Trango. Ghrr.

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:12 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will
discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next!

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have
something
worth taking note about.  Throw in dual band ability and now you're on
the
right track.

As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a
VL
radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so.  Sounds like
fun!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual
horizontal 
Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?).
Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even 
considering the 10Mhz channel option.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist  Motorola is extremely
conservative on
 the spec sheet.  4.21 Mbps Net typical where you get that?  I got
 Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be
the
 most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between 
 performance
 and interference rejection.  And don't negate the fact that GPS is a
must
 have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and
I 
 can
 play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell
 carriers rely on GPS ?

 Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels

 Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower



 Gino A. Villarini
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Patrick Leary
 Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 Jon,

 With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention
 things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are
dealing
 with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency
 needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much
 more spectrum to work with.

 Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL
 efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of
the
 fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used
to
 keep it from stepping on itself.

 And speaking about efficiency, even the Canopy Advantage is a very
 inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but
 Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max
(to
 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical
 over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that
well
 over 1 mile.

 In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL
 networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion
 that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to
 assert in fact.

 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Jon Langeler
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a
cellular

 deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware
of

 that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS
 capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off
or
 N:1 deployment go beyond

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Brad Belton
lolyou continue to assert this is about Trango vs. Alvarion and it is
far from it.  You appear threatened by Trango with comments like this.

I've said from day one we are results driven.  If Trango produces the
results we are after then by golly we'll use Trango.  If Alvarion produces
the results we are after than by golly we'll use Alvarion.

Guys like you only see the world through one prism; the company they work
for.  I'll ask you again Patrick; do you believe Alvarion makes the best
solution for every need?  You can't honestly say yes, can you?

I'll be the first to admit my company is far from perfect and we absolutely
do not have the best product for every application.  What is troubling is
you are unable to say the same!

Best,


Brad





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:12 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Almost as fun as predicting what product or policy Trango will
discontinue or otherwise dramatically change next!

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:41 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Give the VL dual polarity via software control and you might have
something
worth taking note about.  Throw in dual band ability and now you're on
the
right track.

As it sits now Alvarion is requiring you to visit every site you have a
VL
radio and rotate it 90* in the event you need to do so.  Sounds like
fun!

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Remember VLs will be shipping with support for optional manual
horizontal 
Pol mounting, sometime early 2007 (Jan?).
Not going to be a problem getting 6 VLs on a tower anymore, before even 
considering the 10Mhz channel option.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:50 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist  Motorola is extremely
conservative on
 the spec sheet.  4.21 Mbps Net typical where you get that?  I got
 Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be
the
 most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between 
 performance
 and interference rejection.  And don't negate the fact that GPS is a
must
 have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and
I 
 can
 play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell
 carriers rely on GPS ?

 Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels

 Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower



 Gino A. Villarini
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
 tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Patrick Leary
 Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 Jon,

 With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention
 things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are
dealing
 with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency
 needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much
 more spectrum to work with.

 Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL
 efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of
the
 fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used
to
 keep it from stepping on itself.

 And speaking about efficiency, even the Canopy Advantage is a very
 inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but
 Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max
(to
 1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical
 over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that
well
 over 1 mile.

 In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL
 networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion
 that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to
 assert in fact.

 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Jon Langeler
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 With VL, you still run into the issue of self

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Brad Belton
Hello Tom,

Alvarion's strength is it empowers an operator to engineer a more durable
link, based on antenna quality and flexibility.

Antenna quality I'll give you.  Alvarion uses MTi antennas which by most all
accounts builds a quality product.

Flexibility?  Not a chance.  

No Dual Polarity + No Dual Band = NO FLEXIBILITY!


Best,


Brad

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:53 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

marlon,

I have to disagree, and state the opposite.
I've always been a fan of TDD, especially when combined with DSSS to be able

to survive the noise, with better SNRs.
The problem occurs when DSSS is not enough to get above the noise.  When the

noise is other OFDM or Wifi contention gear, possibly louder than your own 
signal, using CSMA/CA actually performs much better in the severe 
interference environments.  The reason is TDD is guaranteed to transmit 
during the noisy period, some percentage of time. With CSMA/CA the radio 
waits for FREE time, or at minimum retransmits until it gets FREE spectrum. 
This can increase latency significantly, but it does reduce packet loss, 
which is more important.

TDD w/ ARQ, can be even better, provided one has a high end radio, that can 
be engineered for both ARQ and optimal link quality. But not all ARQ radio 
can be optimized for best RSSI.  I'd take 8 db of higher RSSI, than ARQ, 
because their is no need for ARQ, if you are adequately above the noise.

Alvarion's strength is it empowers an operator to engineer a more durable 
link, based on antenna quality and flexibility.



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Got it.  Thanks.

 I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too 
 difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything with

 a wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But 
 sucks when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism. 
 That's (my personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It 
 doesn't care who's already out there, when it's time to transmit it does. 
 Trango does that to, just without sync'ing the AP's.

 My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever 
 collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't 
 many other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are

 other devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision 
 avoidance mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.

 Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi 
 type products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as 
 long as we can keep things that way.

 These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and 
 uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a

 product is less important to me than having a product that can survive 
 some of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.

 However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network 
 that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates 
 your system as well as you possibly can.  That seems to be the type of 
 trick that just can't be taught.  Your network designer either gets it or 
 he doesn't.  Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy 
 right in the eye and gave them several choices for site locations.  Only 
 to have them pick something completely different, and sometimes 
 unworkable.

 80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.  Either 
 outright or in a lack of forethought manner.

 Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  Give 
 it the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring. 
 Then we could optimize performance for any environment that we find 
 ourselves in.

 Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line. 
 Why was it important for collocation then but not now?

 Hope you guys all had a great Christmas!
 Marlon
 (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
 www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



 - Original Message - 
 From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 9:26 AM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 I'd never call you a neophyte, Marlon

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Brad Belton
If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not produce
the results we are after then we look at other products.  We will not tie
our hands to one brand.  No reason to.

Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on.  Yes, CIR
is what we sell not MIR.  That may be a good thing for us or it may turn out
to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to
deliver.  

Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look bad.
There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

Expectations and end results are everything to us.  We meet expectations or
we'd rather not do it, part ways amiability and maintain our reputation.
It's a small town!  

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Agreed.  But what about when you are in an environment that TDD won't work 
well? Sometimes the answer is to modify your offering to what the beset 
thing is that can be delivered.
CIR service may need to be changed to MIR. In what cases is CIR really 
needed? And what areas of your business or network also prevent the CIR Full

QOS guarantee from being realized?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


My thoughts exactly.

If the VL had a mechanism to tune out noise and a few other tools (dual
pol - dual band) that would enable the user avoid noise then it is possible
there simply would not be a better PtMP LE product available today.  Without
those critical elements the VL is just not able to perform consistently in
RF hostile environments.

The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Best,


Brad





-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Got it.  Thanks.

I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too
difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything with a

wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But sucks

when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism.  That's (my

personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care who's
already out there, when it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that to,

just without sync'ing the AP's.

My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever
collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many

other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are other
devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance
mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.

Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type

products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as long as
we can keep things that way.

These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and
uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a
product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some
of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.

However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network
that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates
your system as well as you possibly can.  That seems to be the type of trick

that just can't be taught.  Your network designer either gets it or he
doesn't.  Heck, I've even done consulting gigs where I looked a guy right in

the eye and gave them several choices for site locations.  Only to have them

pick something completely different, and sometimes unworkable.

80 to 90%  of people's problems with wireless are self inflicted.  Either
outright or in a lack of forethought manner.

Here's an idea for you Patrick.  Make this product work both ways.  Give it
the option to be either csma or some fancy new version of token ring.  Then
we could optimize performance for any environment that we find ourselves in.

Oh yeah, I remember the big hubbub about GPS in the BreezeACCESS II line.
Why

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Rich Comroe
Products that are best effort [snip product name]
end up making guys like us look bad.

I'm confused how can anyone do better than best effort in unlicensed 
spectrum, regardless of manufacturer?

There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a 
licensed channel can accomplish that?

Rich
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brad Belton 
  To: 'WISPA General List' 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 5:17 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  If we are in an environment where ANY particular solution will not produce
  the results we are after then we look at other products.  We will not tie
  our hands to one brand.  No reason to.

  Our business model is different than the next and so on and so on.  Yes, CIR
  is what we sell not MIR.  That may be a good thing for us or it may turn out
  to be a bad thing for us, but that is the level of service we strive to
  deliver.  

  Products that are best effort like VL end up making guys like us look bad.
  There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
  getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

  Expectations and end results are everything to us.  We meet expectations or
  we'd rather not do it, part ways amiability and maintain our reputation.
  It's a small town!  

  Best,


  Brad



  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:57 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

  The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
  the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
  but not for committed rate business class service.

  Agreed.  But what about when you are in an environment that TDD won't work 
  well? Sometimes the answer is to modify your offering to what the beset 
  thing is that can be delivered.
  CIR service may need to be changed to MIR. In what cases is CIR really 
  needed? And what areas of your business or network also prevent the CIR Full

  QOS guarantee from being realized?

  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


  - Original Message - 
  From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 1:03 PM
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


  My thoughts exactly.

  If the VL had a mechanism to tune out noise and a few other tools (dual
  pol - dual band) that would enable the user avoid noise then it is possible
  there simply would not be a better PtMP LE product available today.  Without
  those critical elements the VL is just not able to perform consistently in
  RF hostile environments.

  The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
  the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
  but not for committed rate business class service.

  Best,


  Brad





  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
  Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 11:46 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

  Got it.  Thanks.

  I guess my beef comes from being a wifi based wisp.  I find it too
  difficult to reject interference with a csma based product.  Anything with a

  wait for clear air, then transmit MAC is GREAT for collocation.  But sucks

  when there are products around that don't follow that mechanism.  That's (my

  personal belief) why Canopy went with it's GPS sync.  It doesn't care who's
  already out there, when it's time to transmit it does.  Trango does that to,

  just without sync'ing the AP's.

  My REAL world experience so far is that csmak (or csma/ca, or whatever
  collision avoidance scheme you want to use) is GREAT where there aren't many

  other systems within ear shot of the radios.  However, when there are other
  devices in the area, especially those that don't have a collision avoidance
  mechanism, the csma radio will pay a heavy price in performance.

  Having used both csma and polling products, I'm not putting in any wifi type

  products at 5 gig.  All of our next gen products will be polling as long as
  we can keep things that way.

  These days, I'm learning to sacrifice raw performance for reliability and
  uptime.  There's a balance, sure, but getting that last 10 to 20% out of a
  product is less important to me than having a product that can survive some
  of the games that my less scrupulous competitors play.

  However, with EITHER technology choice, it's critical to design a network
  that can, and does, physically (antenna choice and ap locations) isolates

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: Rich Comroe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



Products that are best effort [snip product name]
end up making guys like us look bad.


I'm confused how can anyone do better than best effort in unlicensed 
spectrum, regardless of manufacturer?


mks:  I agree with you here Rich.  I've always thought it silly to try to 
offer an SLA when using unlicensed gear.  People do it all of the time 
though.  Heck, it's silly with wires too, they get cut all of the time eh? 
grin.


mks:  Having said that, there are technologies that are allowed under the 
part-15 rules that are more or less robust than others.  Full duplex radios 
that transmit on one channel and receive on another are really really hard 
to take offline.  WiFi radios that must first have relatively clear air to 
transmit are also easy to take offline.


mks:  The current race out there, to which we're watching and arguing about 
with great gusto is to see who's technology is going to be the best long 
term.  Right now, were all arguing about which technology is best.  The 
truth of the matter is that they are all better than the other in the right 
conditions.  What I did here might not work for you and what you do might 
not work for the next guy.  That's part of why us consultants that are also 
wisps are so valuable, we get to see more real world stuff than most.


mks:  One thing I do know.  I'll keep watching threads like this.  I'll keep 
trying new toys.  I'll keep making MY service better for my customers.  I'll 
use the tools that work best today, for me.



There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.


If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a 
licensed channel can accomplish that?


mks:  Too true!  I just got a call from a gal that was upset that she was 
only uploading at 79k.  Come to find out she was using FTP not a web based 
mechanism.  Her speakeasy.net test per her at 750 down 1400 up.  Sure I'd 
like to see it go even faster, but my God, what does she want for $40 per 
month?


marlon


Rich
 - Original Message - 

trim 


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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Brad Belton
Correct.  Any medium used to deliver broadband can be broken.  However,
frankly due to the fewer points of failure we typically see less downtime on
unlicensed wireless links than we do conventional LEC T1 circuits.  

Like many things it all comes down to the geographic area.  Would you expect
a hardline T1 or a wireless T1 to deliver better uptime in or near a
construction site?

Most SLA's I've read (and that we offer if required to do so) are largely
without teeth.  Sure if a client is down an entire day or days on end most
SLA's require some form of credit, but if a client was down for that long
wouldn't you offer the credit in some cases anyway?

Clients that have little threshold for pain due to downtime will quickly
realize they need redundancy.  I love the prospects that claim they have a
zero threshold for pain regarding downtime.  Oh ok, well then you'll need to
move all your stuff into a Co-Lo facility with multiple redundant power,
HVAC, upstreams etc, etc.  That typically is received with silence and they
come back down to Earth.

Bottom line is Internet is only going to become more important in everyday
life.  Five years ago loosing Internet access for a day wasn't the end of
the world...today it can be, but those people know it and plan for it by
having backups in place.

Best,

Brad






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 6:42 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


- Original Message - 
From: Rich Comroe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 26, 2006 3:34 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Products that are best effort [snip product name]
end up making guys like us look bad.

I'm confused how can anyone do better than best effort in unlicensed 
spectrum, regardless of manufacturer?

mks:  I agree with you here Rich.  I've always thought it silly to try to 
offer an SLA when using unlicensed gear.  People do it all of the time 
though.  Heck, it's silly with wires too, they get cut all of the time eh? 
grin.

mks:  Having said that, there are technologies that are allowed under the 
part-15 rules that are more or less robust than others.  Full duplex radios 
that transmit on one channel and receive on another are really really hard 
to take offline.  WiFi radios that must first have relatively clear air to 
transmit are also easy to take offline.

mks:  The current race out there, to which we're watching and arguing about 
with great gusto is to see who's technology is going to be the best long 
term.  Right now, were all arguing about which technology is best.  The 
truth of the matter is that they are all better than the other in the right 
conditions.  What I did here might not work for you and what you do might 
not work for the next guy.  That's part of why us consultants that are also 
wisps are so valuable, we get to see more real world stuff than most.

mks:  One thing I do know.  I'll keep watching threads like this.  I'll keep

trying new toys.  I'll keep making MY service better for my customers.  I'll

use the tools that work best today, for me.

There is nothing worse than installing one day at 6Mbps and the next day
getting a call saying they are getting something less than that.

If you have no allowance for even temporary interference, what short of a 
licensed channel can accomplish that?

mks:  Too true!  I just got a call from a gal that was upset that she was 
only uploading at 79k.  Come to find out she was using FTP not a web based 
mechanism.  Her speakeasy.net test per her at 750 down 1400 up.  Sure I'd 
like to see it go even faster, but my God, what does she want for $40 per 
month?

marlon


Rich
  - Original Message - 

trim 

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Jon Langeler
Let's use 900MHz as an example. We deployed Alvarion 900 on multiple 
sites for over a year and it was a less than enjoyable experience. We 
started by transitioning one site from Alvarion 900 to Canopy 900 and 
things started working much better.
I may use licensed operations as an example only because I've had the 
experience of being on both sides of the fence. Also we buy GPS sync 
units as low as $300 new from a 3rd party vendor, as do many canopy 
operators.
As for the excess bandwidth availability in the UL bands, that's 
definately not the case here...


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Patrick Leary wrote:


Jon,

When discussing GPS, you continue to offer examples from the licensed
world, which is about as relevant as trying to do an apples to apples
comparisons of mobile licensed cellular service plans with UL fixed
wireless. As I have said before (last week), licensed uses GPS due to
the necessity of having to re-use a small amount of channel over and
over again, cell after cell. That's not the case in the UL world, except
perhaps for Canopy whose bandwidth availability is so low relative to
the channel. 


Jon, you, me, the fence post and everyone else knows why Canopy -- alone
in the entire UL 5GHz world -- requires GPS to scale, it's to keep from
stepping all over itself. It is not even a debatable point. The
recommendation is right there in Canopy white papers -- let me
paraphrase: Deploying Canopy? What to scale? Buy this $1,500 cluster
management module for each cell! (P.S. Don't forget the $125 power
supply.)

Seriously, saying Canopy's GPS (something you have to pay extra for
even) is a value-added feature is like saying my car is special because
it has tires. I have to hand it to Motorola though, they have convinced
you that the one thing no other brand needs in UL, is something you have
the privilege of paying extra for just to get your brand to work well in
even modest scale in the first place.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

I didn't make any 'claims' and as for 1,000 cpe, that's possible with 
wifi(although I'd hate to be one of the end-users). Some of the 
differences is how happy the customers are(reliability seems to play key


here), whether they're business or res., how easy it is to have lower 
cost employees deploy the network(as opposed to me and other qualified


or certified engineers that charge $10K's more/yr), and how tasked the

support and management department is, etc. Things that factor into 
operating a real world wisp. My kind of business is one I can leave for 
a vacation or another venture while having confidence the thing is going


to continue growing while I'm gone.
As for GPS sync. Maybe the cellular guys were wrong the whole time, must

be another Moto consipiracy and maybe mention that to everyone that 
developed 802.16d/e(WIMAX) including your own Alvarion engineers! ;) No 
GPS is not required, but it sure makes a lot of sense and is arguably 
'proper' for a multi cell deployment. I predict this is one of those 
things that the novice wisp will someday either understand, moved on 
beyond wireless last mile, or stuck it out and trained their support 
dept. on how to 'put out fires' for as long as possible. Of course all 
of this is my opinion but I have to go now...hopfully was enough for 
everyone to chew on ;)


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Brad Larson wrote:

 


Jon, LOL. Our engineers don't watch these threads and they probably
never will and I wouldn't want them to. It's funny that this thread was
started by a very happy Alvarion customer whom just broke the 1,000 cpe
threshold with VL and he's doing the very things that aren't supposed
   


to
 


be possible according to some posting on this topic!! And the funny
   


part
 


of it is, VL displaced one of the products mentioned...performance went
up, truck rolls went down, and he sleeps better at night!! This thread
reminds me of a competitor slinging mud 2 years ago saying we couldn't
build a 3 tower network in 5 square miles to connect 2,400
buildings...Blah blah sync sync... LOL. We not only built that
network but it's a prime example of how if you KNOW WHAT YOURE DOING
and are TRAINED AND CERTIFIED the product works like a charm. 


And if a wisp is building a scaling voip/data network canopy is not
   


such
 


a great solution so the hassle is in the details. Brad



   




--
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Michwave Tech.

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread Patrick Leary
Not sure how your Alvarion 900 was configured, but our you are aware
that our 900 and 2.4 have both supported GPS sync since day one right
Eight years before Canopy even launched)?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 5:54 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Let's use 900MHz as an example. We deployed Alvarion 900 on multiple 
sites for over a year and it was a less than enjoyable experience. We 
started by transitioning one site from Alvarion 900 to Canopy 900 and 
things started working much better.
I may use licensed operations as an example only because I've had the 
experience of being on both sides of the fence. Also we buy GPS sync 
units as low as $300 new from a 3rd party vendor, as do many canopy 
operators.
As for the excess bandwidth availability in the UL bands, that's 
definately not the case here...

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Patrick Leary wrote:

Jon,

When discussing GPS, you continue to offer examples from the licensed
world, which is about as relevant as trying to do an apples to apples
comparisons of mobile licensed cellular service plans with UL fixed
wireless. As I have said before (last week), licensed uses GPS due to
the necessity of having to re-use a small amount of channel over and
over again, cell after cell. That's not the case in the UL world,
except
perhaps for Canopy whose bandwidth availability is so low relative to
the channel. 

Jon, you, me, the fence post and everyone else knows why Canopy --
alone
in the entire UL 5GHz world -- requires GPS to scale, it's to keep from
stepping all over itself. It is not even a debatable point. The
recommendation is right there in Canopy white papers -- let me
paraphrase: Deploying Canopy? What to scale? Buy this $1,500 cluster
management module for each cell! (P.S. Don't forget the $125 power
supply.)

Seriously, saying Canopy's GPS (something you have to pay extra for
even) is a value-added feature is like saying my car is special because
it has tires. I have to hand it to Motorola though, they have convinced
you that the one thing no other brand needs in UL, is something you
have
the privilege of paying extra for just to get your brand to work well
in
even modest scale in the first place.
 
Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 4:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

I didn't make any 'claims' and as for 1,000 cpe, that's possible with 
wifi(although I'd hate to be one of the end-users). Some of the 
differences is how happy the customers are(reliability seems to play
key

here), whether they're business or res., how easy it is to have lower 
cost employees deploy the network(as opposed to me and other
qualified

or certified engineers that charge $10K's more/yr), and how tasked
the

support and management department is, etc. Things that factor into 
operating a real world wisp. My kind of business is one I can leave for

a vacation or another venture while having confidence the thing is
going

to continue growing while I'm gone.
As for GPS sync. Maybe the cellular guys were wrong the whole time,
must

be another Moto consipiracy and maybe mention that to everyone that 
developed 802.16d/e(WIMAX) including your own Alvarion engineers! ;) No

GPS is not required, but it sure makes a lot of sense and is arguably 
'proper' for a multi cell deployment. I predict this is one of those 
things that the novice wisp will someday either understand, moved on 
beyond wireless last mile, or stuck it out and trained their support 
dept. on how to 'put out fires' for as long as possible. Of course all 
of this is my opinion but I have to go now...hopfully was enough for 
everyone to chew on ;)

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Brad Larson wrote:

  

Jon, LOL. Our engineers don't watch these threads and they probably
never will and I wouldn't want them to. It's funny that this thread
was
started by a very happy Alvarion customer whom just broke the 1,000
cpe
threshold with VL and he's doing the very things that aren't supposed


to
  

be possible according to some posting on this topic!! And the funny


part
  

of it is, VL displaced one of the products mentioned...performance
went
up, truck rolls went down, and he sleeps better at night!! This thread
reminds me of a competitor slinging mud 2 years ago saying we couldn't
build a 3 tower network in 5 square miles to connect 2,400
buildings...Blah blah sync sync... LOL. We not only built that
network but it's a prime example of how if you KNOW WHAT YOURE

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-26 Thread John Scrivner



The Alvarion VL is great for bursty, best effort requirements where 90% of
the user applications can wait for that clear air within the noise floor,
but not for committed rate business class service.

Best,


Brad

 

Brad, I see your almost continuous negative posts about VL and cannot 
help but wonder why you continue to send these posts over and over and 
over to this list. I do not need to be told every day that VL is bad in 
the world according to Brad Belton. We have all heard you say it 100 
times I think. (Maybe several time that if we look at your posts to 
other lists about the same issues) Please change the record. There are 
many of us who do not agree with you that find your non-stop nitpicking 
posts to be a nuisance to this list.


We get ityou hate VL. You stated your piece and we all read about 
it, OVER and OVER. Alvarion is open to criticism just as any other 
platform and we show no favoritism but enough is enough. Please move on 
to another topic.

Respectfully,
Scriv



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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-23 Thread Gino A. Villarini
Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist  Motorola is extremely conservative on
the spec sheet.  4.21 Mbps Net typical where you get that?  I got
Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be the
most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between performance
and interference rejection.  And don't negate the fact that GPS is a must
have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I can
play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell
carriers rely on GPS ?

Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels 

Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower



Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Jon,

With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention
things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing
with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency
needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much
more spectrum to work with. 

Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL
efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the
fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to
keep it from stepping on itself. 

And speaking about efficiency, even the Canopy Advantage is a very
inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but
Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to
1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical
over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well
over 1 mile.

In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL
networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion
that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to
assert in fact.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular

deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of

that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS 
capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or 
N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station 
communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all 
use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a 
good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or colocated 
deployment.

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Charles,

 Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty,

 what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day 
 with all things considered.
 The value of consistent availability and right out of the box 
 deployment is PRICELIST!  This doesn't only save cost of installer 
 labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition.

 I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck.

 I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being

 a stronger residential play.   I recently have done a lot with 
 War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because

 I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, 
 and great testing tools with things like Iperf  BUILT-IN able to test 
 Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops 
 increase as the backbone mesh grows.  Alvarion is also a great product

 for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have 
 a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots.  
 Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new 
 low price, is in its residential application. The difference between 
 $185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time savings in 
 operations.  The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is 
 unmatched.  What VL does for me, is that it gives me confidence in 
 using subcontractors to isntall. Because I know they'll take the time 
 to make sure they get the best signal.  With my other gear, its such a

 pain to get best signal, I was afraid to use contractors and only do 
 installs with employees by the hour, so their income did not deter 
 them from doing their best job. I gladly pay $100 more for a complete 
 ready to go product. The only thing that keeps me from going 100% 
 Alvarion

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-23 Thread Patrick Leary
Hi Gino,

Before I get to where Motorola says what I said, you said:
Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels. That's
no problem and would be done using 6 sixty degree AU's using 10MHz
channels and the net capacity of that cell would be just about 100mbps
net, which is about 15% more capacity than your Canopy Advantage cell's
84mbps net.

Now on to your other parts where you fairly question where I got my
Motorola numbers. I ain't making this stuff up:

Here's the 14mbps to 1 mile part in the spec:
http://motorola.canopywireless.com/products/specshome.php
(Of course, you can buy range extenders to compensate for that poor
out-of-the-box range. What's that, another $80 bucks or so?)

And the part that says 4.25mbps (I did not say 4.21) is not, my mistake,
reported on a spec sheet, but rather on Motorola's Motorola Canopy,
Advantage Wireless Broadband Platform - Voice over IP (VoIP) over Canopy
Advantage Platform whitepaper, dated February 7, 2006 from page 11,
Table 1, under the Findings section. The study and data collected and
reported was performed by independent third party consulting firm West
Monroe Partners. Here is the relevant excerpt: 

++
...The results show that Canopy platform hardware, when updated to the
software release 7.2.9 and being driven by a Canopy Advantage platform
AP will provide nearly identical performance to the newer Canopy
Advantage Subscriber Modules. The table below shows an average score
over five separate tests for both throughput and response time.

PlatformThroughput Avg. (Mbps) Response Time Avg.(s)
Advantage   4.251   1.7526
Canopy  4.294   1.7568
Table 1: Hardware Differences
++

I see you are also beating the GPS is a must have for cellular
deployment drum. Is that the latest Canopy mantra? And you are right,
if a product:
- uses licensed band frequencies where the operator only has access to a
small channel range
Or it is an unlicensed product that:
- is always talking, 
- does not have ATPC, 
- uses 60 degree CPE and 
- has a low amount of capacity to begin with 
Then you must have GPS in a scaled network to keep from destroying
yourself. 

We know all about GPS Gino, we've had it for the required products
licensed and unlicensed long before there ever was a Canopy and it has
been available for Alvarion's UL hoppers from day 1 (FCC just would not
permit it in the US originally). BreezeACCESS VL does not require it to
scale in the UL bands and BreezeACCESS VL does not need GPS to keep from
stepping on itself.





Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 5:50 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Oh Patrick, you couldn't resist  Motorola is extremely conservative
on
the spec sheet.  4.21 Mbps Net typical where you get that?  I got
Advantage customers at 10 miles getting full 14 Mbps ...It may not be
the
most effective modulation, but is a very good compromise between
performance
and interference rejection.  And don't negate the fact that GPS is a
must
have tool for Cell deployment, It saves you spectrum, tower space and I
can
play nice with other carriers using Canopy... Why you think all cell
carriers rely on GPS ?

Let me see a VL 6 60 deg Sector using only 60 Mhz of channels 

Let me see 3 VL Carriers sharing 1 tower



Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:15 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Jon,

With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention
things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing
with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency
needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much
more spectrum to work with. 

Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL
efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the
fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to
keep it from stepping on itself. 

And speaking about efficiency, even the Canopy Advantage is a very
inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but
Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to
1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical
over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well
over 1 mile.

In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL
networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Patrick Leary
Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought
there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated.
That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not
require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable,
connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. 

So what's the impact overall to you business model under the
AlvarionCOMNET program?

Pat
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
bad connector later.

We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program
to other products. (Patrick...)

Marty

___
Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Patrick Leary
Hey Marlon, the price thresholds are there now for residential too.
That's a big part of the entire program. A $285 all inclusive CPE with
nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the
residential business model of even small WISPs.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Right on!  Can't wait till I build another business grade system out
here. 
That's what I plan on using.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
 yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios
as
 before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
 INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable
(60ft
 long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
 already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
 don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about
a
 bad connector later.

 We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
 is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this
program
 to other products. (Patrick...)

 Marty

 ___
 Marty Dougherty
 CEO
 Roadstar Internet Inc.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]





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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Patrick Leary
BreezeACCESS VL CPE under the AlvarionCOMNET program can be had for as
low as $245. Even at $285, I'd contend it is cheaper than an equivalent
quantity of Canopy or Trango and with better total performance plus the
ability to be used for large bandwidth-requiring customers. Also, the
OPEX from install time to management is less, likely much less.

I believe that at no other time in the history of the WISP market has
such a premium product been available for so low.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:54 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Patrick,

$285 WAS a residential price back in 2004
People now want $185 (or lower) CPEs

ducking

-Charles

---
WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Hey Marlon, the price thresholds are there now for residential too.
That's a
big part of the entire program. A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing
extra
to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business
model of even small WISPs.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Right on!  Can't wait till I build another business grade system out
here. 
That's what I plan on using.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
 yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios
as
 before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still 
 INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable
(60ft
 long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is 
 already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers 
 don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about
a
 bad connector later.

 We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this

 is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this
program
 to other products. (Patrick...)

 Marty

 ___
 Marty Dougherty
 CEO
 Roadstar Internet Inc.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]





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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Brad Belton
Hello Marlon,

VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it
will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business
class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to me
by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL
for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the
VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop
in price.

In Patrick's words:
A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.

We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
committed rate business class customer.

The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at
all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my post
was because of your intended use of the VL product.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Right on!  Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here. 
That's what I plan on using.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
 yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
 before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
 INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
 long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
 already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
 don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
 bad connector later.

 We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
 is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program
 to other products. (Patrick...)

 Marty

 ___
 Marty Dougherty
 CEO
 Roadstar Internet Inc.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]





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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Brad Belton
Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin
configuration.  Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45
connector doesn't fit through the weather seal!  Just about a millimeter too
small!

When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin color
code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it?

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought
there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated.
That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not
require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable,
connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. 

So what's the impact overall to you business model under the
AlvarionCOMNET program?

Pat
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
bad connector later.

We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program
to other products. (Patrick...)

Marty

___
Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

It's much closer Patrick.  That's for sure.

Let run some numbers though.

Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap:
$450ish.  Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges up 
to 10 miles.  1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles.

Sector antenna, $400.
Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and 
antenna.

This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily.
If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop, battery 
backup, switch, cables etc.  If we're lucky that'll even include backhaul.


For CPE the cost is gonna be around:
15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish
18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish
$12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good ones 
from PacWireless)

$10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot)
Misc. nuts and bolts $20.
We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor.

Connectorized version, $180ish
24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast 
magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones))

Mount, $12
Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20
Cable, $10 to $20.

This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done.

Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too.  But 
I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the 
above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural areas.


Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them.  Many are under 10. 
Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100.  Last year we 
installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were 
upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs.  This with basically no 
marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition.  Per 
customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive services.


Our network now spans around 6000 square miles.  It's taken over 20 sites 
with nearly 30 ap's to do this.  Our growth potential is really good.  But 
not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there won't be 
any more customers coming.


We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear.  Today 
we're using Trango.  $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged out). 
They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the box. 
Great security and flexibility.


Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though.  I want 
to go play with the new Alvarion gear, I don't have any single area with 
enough growth to keep me in the program though.  Even with resi. customers 
tossed in.  If I were in Spokane, Seattle, Yakima etc. it would be a no 
brainer for me.  The interference robustness, the scalability, the 
upgradeability etc. all make this a much more cut and dried decision. 
Especially the inference issues.  I look at what we fight with out here with 
relatively few alien devices in the air.  How guys like Forbes keep their 
customers running is a mystery to me.  The manpower overhead has to be a 
killer.


How do those numbers compare with a similar VL solution  Help me find a 
way to justify the big boy toys.  Trust me, the idea that I'd not need to do 
any work on my network appeals to me more and more with every new customer. 
But we're still taking care of things with 1.75 people and I spend an 
average of 25% to 30% of my day on these lists and other WISPA type duties 
so I probably really only count for a 3/4 time person.  If I'd totally 
automate my billing, get rid of my time on the lists and forward the office 
calls to my cell phone I could probably do this with one person.  (saving 
around $17,000 per year in payroll)  But who wants to work that hard 
forever?  And Mary is much nicer on the phone than I am :-).


Have a great Christmas!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:35 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Hey Marlon, the price thresholds are there now for residential too.
That's a big part of the entire program. A $285 all inclusive CPE with
nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the
residential business model of even small WISPs.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Right on!  Can't wait till I build another business grade system out
here.
That's what I plan

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Tom DeReggi

Charles,

Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty, what 
people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day with all 
things considered.
The value of consistent availability and right out of the box deployment is 
PRICELIST!  This doesn't only save cost of installer labor, but also 
management labor in purchasing and aquisition.


I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck. I 
always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being a 
stronger residential play.   I recently have done a lot with War/StarV3 for 
high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because I can get good 
speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, and great testing tools 
with things like Iperf  BUILT-IN able to test Ethernet connections as well 
as RF conclusively link by link, as hops increase as the backbone mesh 
grows.  Alvarion is also a great product for high end business, which I'm 
also using in some cases, but I have a higher cost to accomplish that, since 
StarOS has dual radio slots.  Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable 
advantage based on its new low price, is in its residential application. 
The difference between $185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time 
savings in operations.  The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is 
unmatched.  What VL does for me, is that it gives me confidence in using 
subcontractors to isntall. Because I know they'll take the time to make sure 
they get the best signal.  With my other gear, its such a pain to get best 
signal, I was afraid to use contractors and only do installs with employees 
by the hour, so their income did not deter them from doing their best job. 
I gladly pay $100 more for a complete ready to go product. The only thing 
that keeps me from going 100% Alvarion for residential is that, I already 
have 100 APs installed of another manufacturer, and I need to focus on 
revenue not re-build out.  Its not just the cost to replace the AP, its the 
cost to replace the consumers without downtime, all at once, when there is 
little free spectrum left to just install a new AP.  To install a new AP, 
and existing AP must be removed first, in many cases.  From a 
performance/reliabilty point of view, there is nothing wrong with the gear I 
previously preferred to use, but from an operations and installation point 
of view, my operations can scale much easier using the VL.  Low marging 
residential is where that matters most.  Its important to be able to have 
consistent install time and meet schedules.  The other day I ran out of 
pigtail. The other day I ran out of thin thread stand offs. The other day I 
ran out of J-Arms. The other day I ran out of antennas that came with mounts 
that support 2-3/8 pole.  Everyday there is a barrier that delays 
operations. Sure an easy barrier to fix, but still a delay. Instead of 
focussing on sales, I'm focusing on making sure I have enough Gold standoffs 
in stock (5 cent parts).  There is something to be said for what Alvarion 
has offered through the Commnet program, probably one of the strongest value 
propositions offered to date.  Its going to really make the competition 
work.  Just my 2 cents.


The competitions, just better hope that Alvarion doesn't offer an AP 
trade-up program, to help conversion.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:53 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Patrick,

$285 WAS a residential price back in 2004
People now want $185 (or lower) CPEs

ducking

-Charles

---
WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Hey Marlon, the price thresholds are there now for residential too. That's a
big part of the entire program. A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra
to buy, piece together, etc. should fall within the residential business
model of even small WISPs.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Right on!  Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here.
That's what I plan on using.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Tom DeReggi

Brad,

I'm not sure that is a fair statement.
I agree, TDD/DSSS/Pol Diversity solutions can tackle that noise better, one 
of the reasons Trango is still the only clear choice for a good number of my 
cell sites.
But there are many reasons WISPs are making the move to OFDM.  Alvarion 
handles OFDM as well if not better than other OFDM solutions.
If we are comparing apples to apples (OFDM to OFDM) Alvarion has many built 
in features to help guarantee QOS for high end business compared to other 
OFDM solutions.
If OFDM is an Option for the WISP, Alvarion is as good an option as anyone 
else for the job.


I do not agree that Alvarions move to go after residential market negates 
their quality for business markets. Residential markets will simply sell 
higher volume of CPEs, allowing a lower sale cost.


For me the distinguishing factor in available OFDM gear is Ease out of 
the box  versus Built-in testing tools and flexibility.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Hello Marlon,

VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it
will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business
class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to me
by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL
for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the
VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop
in price.

In Patrick's words:
A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.

We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
committed rate business class customer.

The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at
all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my post
was because of your intended use of the VL product.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Right on!  Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here.
That's what I plan on using.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
bad connector later.

We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program
to other products. (Patrick...)

Marty

___
Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

Yeah, FH gear has it's ups and downs.

We do NOT offer ANY speed based plans though.  All of our plans 
automatically assume full speed customers.  We sell bits.


I'll never understand why the internet industry thinks it's got a better 
grasp on business realities than any other industry in the world.  Name me 
ANY other industry that's always all you can eat and has no real controls on 
that.


You buy gas a gallon at a time.
You buy mile a gallon at a time.
You buy electricity a KWH at a time.
You buy clothes one pair of pants at a time.
Tires, one at a time.
Cars, one at a time.
Insurance, one option at a time.
Beer, one at a time.

No one sells you a car then gives you all the tires you can burn up every 
month.


Bandwidth is so cheap it's almost free.  It's UTILIZED bandwidth that gets 
expensive.  It's the bits in the bucket that take money to move around.  The 
bucket is cheap.


The priority for our business customers is to stay online.  Speed matters 
but not as much as connectivity.


As someone that's built almost an entire network with WiFi gear I know all 
about what interference can and will do to a network.  I'm probably one of 
the best out there at finding ways to work around interference.  Part of it 
is art, not science.  Part of dealing with interference is predicting what 
others are likely to do and planning for it.


Now, forgive me if I'm wrong on this, someone fix me if I am.  Nowadays, 
under part-15.247 rules, FH gear no longer HAS to hop on every channel.  If 
there's interference in an area, one can simply program the radio to bypass 
known systems.  I thought that all current Alvarion systems have the ability 
to lock out known bad spectrum from the hopping pattern..


I've got a billing model question for you guys.  Something I really need 
help on.  I'll start a new thread for it though.


Merry Christmas,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:11 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Hello Marlon,

VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it
will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business
class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to me
by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL
for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the
VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop
in price.

In Patrick's words:
A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.

We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
committed rate business class customer.

The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at
all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my post
was because of your intended use of the VL product.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Right on!  Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here.
That's what I plan on using.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
bad connector later.

We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
is a great price. I'm looking forward

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Mike Cowan

Wow Brad,

With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you 
have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one.  VL 
does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their 
hoppers did.  It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and 
will still transmit.  It is THE business class product 
IMHO.  Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market 
by making this radio available at this reduced price.  It is the 
exact same radio that normally costs more.  They are trying to 
empower the WISP to use quality gear.  To say the gears quality has 
gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true.


Mike Cowan


At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:

Hello Marlon,

VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it
will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business
class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to me
by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL
for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the
VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop
in price.

In Patrick's words:
A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.

We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
committed rate business class customer.

The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at
all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my post
was because of your intended use of the VL product.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad



Mike Cowan
Wireless Connections
A Division of ACC
166 Milan Ave
Norwalk, OH  44857
419-660-6100
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wirelessconnections.net

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Brad Belton
Hello Tom,

Just speaking from first hand experience and the experiences of the
references Alvarion gave me.  Nothing more.  grin

The VL gear is a great product for a best effort solution, but not a
committed rate business class service.  Two very different animals.

Again, my post was only because Marlon indicated he intended to use the VL
gear for a business class rollout.  I just wanted to give him a heads up,
that's all.

I do believe Alvarion's move to lower the price on the VL gear was to put it
within the reach of the market the product could best perform.  The VL gear
does fly on bursty - up to traffic.  It is amazing when it works, but it
isn't able to maintain that level of service 24x7.  It's like the VL flys
when it can and then holds off looking for clean air time then flys again.
This is perfectly fine for 99% of the residential requirements, but doesn't
cut it for a business that is pushing and pulling 5Mbps+ FDX 12hrs a day.  

In contrast a Trango M5830 will push and pull 4.5Mbps FDX or 8-9Mbps HDX all
day long regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered
correctly.

Best and Merry Christmas!

Brad






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Brad,

I'm not sure that is a fair statement.
I agree, TDD/DSSS/Pol Diversity solutions can tackle that noise better, one 
of the reasons Trango is still the only clear choice for a good number of my

cell sites.
But there are many reasons WISPs are making the move to OFDM.  Alvarion 
handles OFDM as well if not better than other OFDM solutions.
If we are comparing apples to apples (OFDM to OFDM) Alvarion has many built 
in features to help guarantee QOS for high end business compared to other 
OFDM solutions.
If OFDM is an Option for the WISP, Alvarion is as good an option as anyone 
else for the job.

I do not agree that Alvarions move to go after residential market negates 
their quality for business markets. Residential markets will simply sell 
higher volume of CPEs, allowing a lower sale cost.

For me the distinguishing factor in available OFDM gear is Ease out of 
the box  versus Built-in testing tools and flexibility.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Hello Marlon,

VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it
will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business
class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to me
by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL
for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the
VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop
in price.

In Patrick's words:
A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.

We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
committed rate business class customer.

The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at
all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my post
was because of your intended use of the VL product.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Right on!  Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here.
That's what I plan on using.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
 yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
 before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
 INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
 long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
 already factory terminated and properly

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Brad Belton
Wow back at ya there, Mike!  grin

Never said the product was less in quality in any form.  Simply stating the
gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments.
Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds
in the face of noise.  Do you know something they don't?  Please share, I'd
love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of
noise.

Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to
continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment
if the link is engineered correctly.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Cowan
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Wow Brad,

With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you 
have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one.  VL 
does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their 
hoppers did.  It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and 
will still transmit.  It is THE business class product 
IMHO.  Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market 
by making this radio available at this reduced price.  It is the 
exact same radio that normally costs more.  They are trying to 
empower the WISP to use quality gear.  To say the gears quality has 
gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true.

Mike Cowan


At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
Hello Marlon,

VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it
will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business
class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to me
by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL
for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing
the
VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic
drop
in price.

In Patrick's words:
A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.

We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
committed rate business class customer.

The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at
all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my post
was because of your intended use of the VL product.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad


Mike Cowan
Wireless Connections
A Division of ACC
166 Milan Ave
Norwalk, OH  44857
419-660-6100
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wirelessconnections.net

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
OK then, Patrick, Ed, whoever, is the VL a CSMAK based product like WiFi or 
a polling based product like Trango?


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:21 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Hello Tom,

Just speaking from first hand experience and the experiences of the
references Alvarion gave me.  Nothing more.  grin

The VL gear is a great product for a best effort solution, but not a
committed rate business class service.  Two very different animals.

Again, my post was only because Marlon indicated he intended to use the VL
gear for a business class rollout.  I just wanted to give him a heads up,
that's all.

I do believe Alvarion's move to lower the price on the VL gear was to put it
within the reach of the market the product could best perform.  The VL gear
does fly on bursty - up to traffic.  It is amazing when it works, but it
isn't able to maintain that level of service 24x7.  It's like the VL flys
when it can and then holds off looking for clean air time then flys again.
This is perfectly fine for 99% of the residential requirements, but doesn't
cut it for a business that is pushing and pulling 5Mbps+ FDX 12hrs a day.

In contrast a Trango M5830 will push and pull 4.5Mbps FDX or 8-9Mbps HDX all
day long regardless of the RF environment if the link is engineered
correctly.

Best and Merry Christmas!

Brad






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:05 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Brad,

I'm not sure that is a fair statement.
I agree, TDD/DSSS/Pol Diversity solutions can tackle that noise better, one
of the reasons Trango is still the only clear choice for a good number of my

cell sites.
But there are many reasons WISPs are making the move to OFDM.  Alvarion
handles OFDM as well if not better than other OFDM solutions.
If we are comparing apples to apples (OFDM to OFDM) Alvarion has many built
in features to help guarantee QOS for high end business compared to other
OFDM solutions.
If OFDM is an Option for the WISP, Alvarion is as good an option as anyone
else for the job.

I do not agree that Alvarions move to go after residential market negates
their quality for business markets. Residential markets will simply sell
higher volume of CPEs, allowing a lower sale cost.

For me the distinguishing factor in available OFDM gear is Ease out of
the box  versus Built-in testing tools and flexibility.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:11 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Hello Marlon,

VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it
will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business
class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to me
by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL
for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing the
VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic drop
in price.

In Patrick's words:
A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.

We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
committed rate business class customer.

The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at
all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my post
was because of your intended use of the VL product.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Right on!  Can't wait till I build another business grade system out here.
That's what I plan on using.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Wow back at ya there, Mike!  grin

Never said the product was less in quality in any form.  Simply stating the
gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments.
Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds
in the face of noise.  Do you know something they don't?  Please share, I'd
love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of
noise.

Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to
continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment
if the link is engineered correctly.

mks:  Lets be fair here.  Using the threshold also comes with a distance 
penalty.  Knowing it takes roughly 6 dB to double your distance, setting the 
threshold from -80 to -75 can cut one's range from 5 to less than 3 miles. 
That's nearly 4x less potential customer base.


mks:  I love the rx threshold and I use it.  However, it's not without it's 
own penalty.

marlon

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Cowan
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Wow Brad,

With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you
have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one.  VL
does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their
hoppers did.  It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and
will still transmit.  It is THE business class product
IMHO.  Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market
by making this radio available at this reduced price.  It is the
exact same radio that normally costs more.  They are trying to
empower the WISP to use quality gear.  To say the gears quality has
gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true.

Mike Cowan


At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:

Hello Marlon,

VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it
will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business
class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to me
by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL
for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing

the

VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic

drop

in price.

In Patrick's words:
A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.

We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
committed rate business class customer.

The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at
all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my post
was because of your intended use of the VL product.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad



Mike Cowan
Wireless Connections
A Division of ACC
166 Milan Ave
Norwalk, OH  44857
419-660-6100
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wirelessconnections.net

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Mike Cowan

Hi Brad,

The radio will auto modulate down from mod level 8 to 1 when faced 
with interference.  They won't stop transmitting when interference is 
present however.  They do work like any radio out there, two way 
radio, Ip radios, Trango radios all need a specific C/I ratio to run 
correctly.  I don't know that I can properly engineer a Trango, 
Alvarion, or Redline link to cope with future unknown 
interference.  Sure, big antennas, tight beams, and strong C/I ratios 
is the way to go but is it enough?  Most of the time probably.  So we 
engineer our links to be as resiliant as possible, but when somebody 
points that 4 foot dish down our throat I want a radio that will drop 
mod levels and cope with it, albeit at a reduced speed rather than 
one that only has 1 speed.  I thought Trango added mod levels to 
their 5.8 product to help cope.  Is that true or did it not get built?


Merry Christmas!

Mike



At 03:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:

Wow back at ya there, Mike!  grin

Never said the product was less in quality in any form.  Simply stating the
gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments.
Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds
in the face of noise.  Do you know something they don't?  Please share, I'd
love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of
noise.

Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to
continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment
if the link is engineered correctly.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Cowan
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Wow Brad,

With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you
have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one.  VL
does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their
hoppers did.  It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and
will still transmit.  It is THE business class product
IMHO.  Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market
by making this radio available at this reduced price.  It is the
exact same radio that normally costs more.  They are trying to
empower the WISP to use quality gear.  To say the gears quality has
gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true.

Mike Cowan


At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
Hello Marlon,

VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it
will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business
class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to me
by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL
for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing
the
VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic
drop
in price.

In Patrick's words:
A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.

We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
committed rate business class customer.

The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at
all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my post
was because of your intended use of the VL product.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad


Mike Cowan
Wireless Connections
A Division of ACC
166 Milan Ave
Norwalk, OH  44857
419-660-6100
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wirelessconnections.net

--
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Mike Cowan
Wireless Connections
A Division of ACC
166 Milan Ave
Norwalk, OH  44857
419-660-6100
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wirelessconnections.net

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Brad Belton
Agreed, Trango is far from immune from interference, but they do give you
a few more tools in your bag to combat it. 

(1)  RX Threshold
(2)  Dual Polarity
(3)  Dual Band

Alvarion VL offers none of these.  If they did they would hands down be the
best PtMP LE gear available today IMO.  However, I don't think they ever
will offer these features as it would be a conflict of interest with their
more expensive licensed gear.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Cowan
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Hi Brad,

The radio will auto modulate down from mod level 8 to 1 when faced 
with interference.  They won't stop transmitting when interference is 
present however.  They do work like any radio out there, two way 
radio, Ip radios, Trango radios all need a specific C/I ratio to run 
correctly.  I don't know that I can properly engineer a Trango, 
Alvarion, or Redline link to cope with future unknown 
interference.  Sure, big antennas, tight beams, and strong C/I ratios 
is the way to go but is it enough?  Most of the time probably.  So we 
engineer our links to be as resiliant as possible, but when somebody 
points that 4 foot dish down our throat I want a radio that will drop 
mod levels and cope with it, albeit at a reduced speed rather than 
one that only has 1 speed.  I thought Trango added mod levels to 
their 5.8 product to help cope.  Is that true or did it not get built?

Merry Christmas!

Mike



At 03:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
Wow back at ya there, Mike!  grin

Never said the product was less in quality in any form.  Simply stating the
gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments.
Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds
in the face of noise.  Do you know something they don't?  Please share, I'd
love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of
noise.

Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to
continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment
if the link is engineered correctly.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Cowan
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Wow Brad,

With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you
have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one.  VL
does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their
hoppers did.  It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and
will still transmit.  It is THE business class product
IMHO.  Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market
by making this radio available at this reduced price.  It is the
exact same radio that normally costs more.  They are trying to
empower the WISP to use quality gear.  To say the gears quality has
gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true.

Mike Cowan


At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
 Hello Marlon,
 
 VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as
it
 will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
 mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy
business
 class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to
me
 by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using
VL
 for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing
the
 VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic
drop
 in price.
 
 In Patrick's words:
 A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
 should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.
 
 We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
 committed rate business class customer.
 
 The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
 but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or
at
 all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my
post
 was because of your intended use of the VL product.
 
 Best and Merry Christmas!
 
 
 Brad
 

Mike Cowan
Wireless Connections
A Division of ACC
166 Milan Ave
Norwalk, OH  44857
419-660-6100
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wirelessconnections.net

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Mike Cowan
Wireless Connections
A Division of ACC
166 Milan Ave
Norwalk, OH  44857
419-660-6100
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wirelessconnections.net

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Andrew Niemantsverdriet

I too am interested in what the minium price would be to put up a POP
using Alvarion gear. I really like my Trango gear but this stuff
sounds awesome and from what I read the Comnet program is just what I
am looking for. To compare to build out a Trango POP it costs about
1600 that includes AP, a switch and a battery backup system. Can
Alvarion get close to this?

On 12/22/06, Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

It's much closer Patrick.  That's for sure.

Let run some numbers though.

Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap:
$450ish.  Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges up
to 10 miles.  1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles.
Sector antenna, $400.
Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and
antenna.
This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily.
If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop, battery
backup, switch, cables etc.  If we're lucky that'll even include backhaul.

For CPE the cost is gonna be around:
15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish
18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish
$12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good ones
from PacWireless)
$10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot)
Misc. nuts and bolts $20.
We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor.

Connectorized version, $180ish
24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast
magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones))
Mount, $12
Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20
Cable, $10 to $20.

This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done.

Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too.  But
I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the
above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural areas.

Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them.  Many are under 10.
Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100.  Last year we
installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were
upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs.  This with basically no
marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition.  Per
customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive services.

Our network now spans around 6000 square miles.  It's taken over 20 sites
with nearly 30 ap's to do this.  Our growth potential is really good.  But
not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there won't be
any more customers coming.

We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear.  Today
we're using Trango.  $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged out).
They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the box.
Great security and flexibility.

Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though.  I want
to go play with the new Alvarion gear, I don't have any single area with
enough growth to keep me in the program though.  Even with resi. customers
tossed in.  If I were in Spokane, Seattle, Yakima etc. it would be a no
brainer for me.  The interference robustness, the scalability, the
upgradeability etc. all make this a much more cut and dried decision.
Especially the inference issues.  I look at what we fight with out here with
relatively few alien devices in the air.  How guys like Forbes keep their
customers running is a mystery to me.  The manpower overhead has to be a
killer.

How do those numbers compare with a similar VL solution  Help me find a
way to justify the big boy toys.  Trust me, the idea that I'd not need to do
any work on my network appeals to me more and more with every new customer.
But we're still taking care of things with 1.75 people and I spend an
average of 25% to 30% of my day on these lists and other WISPA type duties
so I probably really only count for a 3/4 time person.  If I'd totally
automate my billing, get rid of my time on the lists and forward the office
calls to my cell phone I could probably do this with one person.  (saving
around $17,000 per year in payroll)  But who wants to work that hard
forever?  And Mary is much nicer on the phone than I am :-).

Have a great Christmas!
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam


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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Brad Belton
Agreed, however like I said if the link is engineered properly the RX
threshold will save you more times than not.  Is the Trango immune from
noise?  Absolutely not, but at least you have a tool or two in your bag to
work around it.  RX threshold - dual band - dual polarity.  VL has none of
these!

Best,

Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:35 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:26 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


Wow back at ya there, Mike!  grin

Never said the product was less in quality in any form.  Simply stating the
gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments.
Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds
in the face of noise.  Do you know something they don't?  Please share, I'd
love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of
noise.

Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to
continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment
if the link is engineered correctly.

mks:  Lets be fair here.  Using the threshold also comes with a distance 
penalty.  Knowing it takes roughly 6 dB to double your distance, setting the

threshold from -80 to -75 can cut one's range from 5 to less than 3 miles. 
That's nearly 4x less potential customer base.

mks:  I love the rx threshold and I use it.  However, it's not without it's 
own penalty.
marlon

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Cowan
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Wow Brad,

With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you
have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one.  VL
does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their
hoppers did.  It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and
will still transmit.  It is THE business class product
IMHO.  Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market
by making this radio available at this reduced price.  It is the
exact same radio that normally costs more.  They are trying to
empower the WISP to use quality gear.  To say the gears quality has
gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true.

Mike Cowan


At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
Hello Marlon,

VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as it
will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy business
class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to me
by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using VL
for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing
the
VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic
drop
in price.

In Patrick's words:
A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.

We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
committed rate business class customer.

The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or at
all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my post
was because of your intended use of the VL product.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad


Mike Cowan
Wireless Connections
A Division of ACC
166 Milan Ave
Norwalk, OH  44857
419-660-6100
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.wirelessconnections.net

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Brad Belton
Oh and BTW, what happens to a link that is trying to shove 5Mbps FDX through
while auto-rated down to modulation 1 in the event of noise?  It drops
packets!  That was our problem with the VL.  The client experienced this and
their applications simply would not work.  We also were seeing ping packets
dropping to the tune of 5-25%...not a good thing.

Love to continue with this discussion, but I have a few more last minute
Christmas errands to run!


Merry Christmas!


Brad



-Original Message-
From: Brad Belton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:45 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Agreed, Trango is far from immune from interference, but they do give you
a few more tools in your bag to combat it. 

(1)  RX Threshold
(2)  Dual Polarity
(3)  Dual Band

Alvarion VL offers none of these.  If they did they would hands down be the
best PtMP LE gear available today IMO.  However, I don't think they ever
will offer these features as it would be a conflict of interest with their
more expensive licensed gear.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Cowan
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Hi Brad,

The radio will auto modulate down from mod level 8 to 1 when faced 
with interference.  They won't stop transmitting when interference is 
present however.  They do work like any radio out there, two way 
radio, Ip radios, Trango radios all need a specific C/I ratio to run 
correctly.  I don't know that I can properly engineer a Trango, 
Alvarion, or Redline link to cope with future unknown 
interference.  Sure, big antennas, tight beams, and strong C/I ratios 
is the way to go but is it enough?  Most of the time probably.  So we 
engineer our links to be as resiliant as possible, but when somebody 
points that 4 foot dish down our throat I want a radio that will drop 
mod levels and cope with it, albeit at a reduced speed rather than 
one that only has 1 speed.  I thought Trango added mod levels to 
their 5.8 product to help cope.  Is that true or did it not get built?

Merry Christmas!

Mike



At 03:26 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
Wow back at ya there, Mike!  grin

Never said the product was less in quality in any form.  Simply stating the
gear doesn't perform well under load in unfriendly RF environments.
Alvarion Techs themselves acknowledge the radios back off modulation speeds
in the face of noise.  Do you know something they don't?  Please share, I'd
love to begin re-deploying VL if I knew it wouldn't cower in the face of
noise.

Trango on the other hand has a RX threshold that will enable the radio to
continue to perform at its published rates regardless of the RF environment
if the link is engineered correctly.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Cowan
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Wow Brad,

With as long as you have been at this and the knowledge level you
have I am surprised you could be so far off the mark on this one.  VL
does automodulate and has better RF characteristics than their
hoppers did.  It won't backoff and die when presented with noise and
will still transmit.  It is THE business class product
IMHO.  Alvarion is making an effort to reach out to the WISP market
by making this radio available at this reduced price.  It is the
exact same radio that normally costs more.  They are trying to
empower the WISP to use quality gear.  To say the gears quality has
gone down, hence a lower price is simply not true.

Mike Cowan


At 02:11 PM 12/22/2006, you wrote:
 Hello Marlon,
 
 VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as
it
 will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
 mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy
business
 class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to
me
 by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using
VL
 for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing
the
 VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic
drop
 in price.
 
 In Patrick's words:
 A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together, etc.
 should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.
 
 We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for a
 committed rate business class customer.
 
 The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable features,
 but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or
at
 all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my
post
 was because of your intended use of the VL product

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Patrick Leary
Brad,

This is not something for which opinion has a place. There are facts
here and you are asserting things about us that simply false. I
personally conceived, wrote and pitched every word, idea, concept, and
crossed t of the AlvarionCOMNET program. Its origination has nothing to
do with your thinking. I detest conspiracy theories. I detest them even
when they are about my competition. I am as transparent and direct as
you will EVER hear or see from a vendor. Period.

The dramatic drop in price has everything to do with architecting a
program with mechanisms that significantly reduce internal overhead (we
are typically not the easiest company to buy from) as well as taking a
calculated risk in anticipation of improving market conditions for us
among a set of customers for which I have a great deal of personal
connection, respect, and interest -- WISPs. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:11 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Hello Marlon,

VL won't be a good choice as a committed rate business grade product as
it
will modulate down in a noisy environment.  Without any RX threshold
mechanism the VL radio begins to slow and drop packets under heavy
business
class loads in unfriendly RF environments.  Even the references given to
me
by Alvarion while overall have been happy with the product are not using
VL
for committed rate business class service.  IMO, Alvarion is now pushing
the
VL product as a residential best effort solution...hence the dramatic
drop
in price.

In Patrick's words:
A $285 all inclusive CPE with nothing extra to buy, piece together,
etc.
should fall within the residential business model of even small WISPs.

We've been there and almost lost a valuable client trying to use VL for
a
committed rate business class customer.

The VL gear is a high quality product with a number of valuable
features,
but it is missing a few key items that keep it form performing well (or
at
all) as a committed rate business class solution.  Only reason for my
post
was because of your intended use of the VL product.

Best and Merry Christmas!


Brad






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Right on!  Can't wait till I build another business grade system out
here. 
That's what I plan on using.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:47 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
 yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios
as
 before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
 INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable
(60ft
 long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
 already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
 don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about
a
 bad connector later.

 We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
 is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this
program
 to other products. (Patrick...)

 Marty

 ___
 Marty Dougherty
 CEO
 Roadstar Internet Inc.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]





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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Patrick Leary
The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to
figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to
manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone
complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? 

It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to
bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of
choice.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin
configuration.  Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45
connector doesn't fit through the weather seal!  Just about a millimeter
too
small!

When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin
color
code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it?

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought
there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated.
That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not
require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable,
connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. 

So what's the impact overall to you business model under the
AlvarionCOMNET program?

Pat
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
bad connector later.

We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program
to other products. (Patrick...)

Marty

___
Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Patrick Leary
 be
proportional to the distance from the AU of the farthest SU served by
it. The Cell Distance Mode parameter in the AU defines the method of
computing distances. When set to Manual, the Maximum Cell Distance
parameter should be configured with the estimated distance of the
farthest SU served by the AU. When set to Automatic, the AU uses a
special algorithm to estimate its distance from each of the SUs it
serves, determine which SU is located the farthest and use the estimated
distance of the farthest SU as the maximum cell distance. The value of
the maximum cell distance parameter (either computed or configured
manually) is transmitted in the beacon messages to all SUs served by the
AU, and is used by all units to calculate the size of the time slot,
that must be the same for all units in the same sector. When the Per SU
Distance Learning option is enabled, the AU uses the re-association
message to send to each SU its estimated distance from the AU. The
per-SU distance is used to calculate the ACK timeout to be used by the
SU. When the Per SU Distance Learning option is disabled (or if it
cannot be used because the SU uses a previous SW version that does not
support this feature), the SU will use the maximum cell distance to
calculate the ACK timeout. The AU always uses the maximum cell distance
to calculate the ACK timeout. It should be noted that if the size of the
time slot used by all units is adapted to the distance of the farthest
unit, then no unit will have an advantage when competing for services.
However, this reduces the overall achievable throughput of the cell. In
certain situations, the operator may decide to improve the overall
throughput by reducing the slot size below the value required for full
fairness. This means that when there is competition for bandwidth, the
back-off algorithm will give an advantage to SUs that are located closer
to the AU. The Cell Distance Parameters menu includes the following
parameters: fairness factor, per SU distance learning, show cell
distance parameters.

* Arbitration Inter-Frame Spacing feature

* Max association feature

* Wireless Link Trap Threshold feature: defines the threshold
for the wireless quality trap, indicating that the quality of the
wireless link has dropped below (on trap) or has increased above (off
trap) the specified threshold. The Wireless Link Trap Threshold is in
percentage of retransmissions, and the allowed range is from 1 to 100
(%). The default is 30 (%).

* Lost Beacons Transmission Watchdog Threshold feature: When it
is unable to send beacon frames for a predetermined period of time, such
as in the case of interferences, the AU resets itself. The Lost Beacons
Transmission Threshold parameter represents the number of consecutive
lost beacons after which the unit will reset itself. The range for this
parameter is 100 - 1000 or 0. When the parameter is set to 0, this
feature is disabled, i.e. internal refresh will never be performed. The
default value is 218.

* Disassociate (AU only) feature: enables disassociating all SUs
associated with the AU or a selected SU. This feature is useful during
configuration changes, enabling to force the SU(s) to re-initiate the
association process, including the search for the best AU (or a
preferred AU) using the Best AU process, without performing a full
reset. The Disassociate submenu includes two options: Disassociate All
SUs, Disassociate SU By MAC Address: to disassociate a selected SU.

* Configurable Minimum and Maximum Contention Windows (The
BreezeACCESS VL system uses a special mechanism based on detecting the
presence of a carrier signal and analyzing the information contained in
the transmissions of the AU to estimate the activity of other SUs served
by the AU.) The available values are 0, 7, 15, 31, 63, 127, 255, 511 and
1023. A value of 0 means that the contention window algorithm is not
used and that the unit will attempt to access the medium immediately
after a time equal to DIFS. The default min. value is 15. The default
max. is 1023.

* Advanced MIR/CIR (controlled by both the SU and AU) with
special configurable graceful degradation algorithm ensuring that the
degradation of performance for each individual SU is proportional to its
CIR.


Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

OK then, Patrick, Ed, whoever, is the VL a CSMAK based product like WiFi
or 
a polling based product like Trango?

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of 
Alvarion I do have to side with him on this.  I just called Ben Moore at 
PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. 
They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things.  Now I have to carry 
FOUR tools up the ladder.


Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm?  Those are the same size  People have 
the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep screwing 
with.


If there's a standard out there, please stick with it.  We have enough 
things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange default 
username/password combos!


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:43 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to
figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to
manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone
complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line?

It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to
bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of
choice.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin
configuration.  Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45
connector doesn't fit through the weather seal!  Just about a millimeter
too
small!

When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin
color
code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it?

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought
there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated.
That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not
require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable,
connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas.

So what's the impact overall to you business model under the
AlvarionCOMNET program?

Pat
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
bad connector later.

We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program
to other products. (Patrick...)

Marty

___
Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived



Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of 
Alvarion I do have to side with him on this.  I just called Ben Moore at 
PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me. 
They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things.  Now I have to 
carry FOUR tools up the ladder.


Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm?  Those are the same size  People 
have the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep 
screwing with.


If there's a standard out there, please stick with it.  We have enough 
things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange 
default username/password combos!


BINGO, we found this out yesterday and hope that this is a temporary 
thing.


Hope fully Ben is reading this.. Not a good thing to change.


roflol  He's reading it now!  heheheheh

Believe me, he got an ear full yesterday!



George

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Patrick Leary
Marlon,

You say most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them...  In
response to that reality we created a version of the VL AU for rural
markets. We came to realize that the cost of a regular of VL AU where
likely user counts are low simply was not economical. So we came up with
the AUS. Three VL sectors using the AUS will support 75 users. An AUS
(list of $2,595) has a limit of 25 attachments, but it can be upgraded
if the demographics will support it; it is otherwise no different from a
regular VL AU. Three AUS sectors will cost you about $6k, so about 2.4x
your more modest three sector arrangement. The install will be easier,
so that will make up a little (unless you don't count your time as a
cost). But that will also support about 100mbps net so you can figure
the math in terms of what can be delivered to subs at your chosen
oversubscription. And you know it will do that at range LOS since the
CPE has an integrated 21dBi MTI.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:55 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

It's much closer Patrick.  That's for sure.

Let run some numbers though.

Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap:
$450ish.  Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges
up 
to 10 miles.  1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles.
Sector antenna, $400.
Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and 
antenna.
This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily.
If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop,
battery 
backup, switch, cables etc.  If we're lucky that'll even include
backhaul.

For CPE the cost is gonna be around:
15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish
18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish
$12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good
ones 
from PacWireless)
$10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot)
Misc. nuts and bolts $20.
We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor.

Connectorized version, $180ish
24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast 
magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones))
Mount, $12
Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20
Cable, $10 to $20.

This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done.

Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too.  But

I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the 
above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural
areas.

Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them.  Many are under 10. 
Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100.  Last year we

installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were 
upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs.  This with
basically no 
marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition.  Per 
customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive
services.

Our network now spans around 6000 square miles.  It's taken over 20
sites 
with nearly 30 ap's to do this.  Our growth potential is really good.
But 
not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there won't
be 
any more customers coming.

We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear.  Today

we're using Trango.  $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged out).

They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the
box. 
Great security and flexibility.

Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though.  I
want 
to go play with the new Alvarion gear, I don't have any single area with

enough growth to keep me in the program though.  Even with resi.
customers 
tossed in.  If I were in Spokane, Seattle, Yakima etc. it would be a no 
brainer for me.  The interference robustness, the scalability, the 
upgradeability etc. all make this a much more cut and dried decision. 
Especially the inference issues.  I look at what we fight with out here
with 
relatively few alien devices in the air.  How guys like Forbes keep
their 
customers running is a mystery to me.  The manpower overhead has to be a

killer.

How do those numbers compare with a similar VL solution  Help me
find a 
way to justify the big boy toys.  Trust me, the idea that I'd not need
to do 
any work on my network appeals to me more and more with every new
customer. 
But we're still taking care of things with 1.75 people and I spend an 
average of 25% to 30% of my day on these lists and other WISPA type
duties 
so I probably really only count for a 3/4 time person.  If I'd totally 
automate my billing, get rid of my time on the lists and forward the
office 
calls to my cell phone I could probably do this with one person.
(saving 
around $17,000 per year in payroll)  But who wants to work that hard

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Eric Albert
Hi Brad,

The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the
ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to
speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is
intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. 

Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous
roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is
only eight conductors. 

When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. 

Happy Holidays!


Eric Albert
Application Engineer
Alvarion, Inc.


 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin
configuration.  Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45
connector doesn't fit through the weather seal!  Just about a millimeter
too
small!

When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin
color
code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it?

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought
there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated.
That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not
require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable,
connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. 

So what's the impact overall to you business model under the
AlvarionCOMNET program?

Pat
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
bad connector later.

We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program
to other products. (Patrick...)

Marty

___
Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Brad Belton
Hello Albert,

Can you point me to a URL describing the 586-B2 color code?  I've searched
for a minute or two, but so far everything comes up with the oranges and
greens in the 1,2,3 and 6 pin locations.  Even if there is a 568-B2 color
code why use that color code when the rest of the world uses basic 568-A or
568-B?

I think you know as well as I do the design of the weatherproof boot was an
oversight.  The design team simply took the dimension of a standard RJ45
plug and used that for their ID of the weather seal design.  The oversight
was the corners of the RJ45 plug are obviously beyond the ID rendering the
connector unable to pass through.  grin

No, I don't think anyone is going to bite off that a weather seal with a 1mm
larger ID is going to jeopardize the effectiveness of the seal.  Pathetic
attempt to cover a purely obvious design oversight...lol

Merry Christmas!


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Albert
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 5:46 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Hi Brad,

The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the
ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to
speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is
intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. 

Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous
roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is
only eight conductors. 

When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. 

Happy Holidays!


Eric Albert
Application Engineer
Alvarion, Inc.


 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin
configuration.  Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45
connector doesn't fit through the weather seal!  Just about a millimeter
too
small!

When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin
color
code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it?

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought
there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated.
That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not
require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable,
connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. 

So what's the impact overall to you business model under the
AlvarionCOMNET program?

Pat
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
bad connector later.

We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program
to other products. (Patrick...)

Marty

___
Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Brad Belton
Well, hello Patrick and Merry Christmas!

Yes, the gaul of me to insist a client gets what he pays for.  Just what am
I thinking!  lol

Bottom line is as you know the client wasn't happy with the VL product as it
wasn't able to keep up with the client demands.  I'm sorry that's what it
came to, but consider the client really didn't care what the brand of the
gear was they just wanted the circuit to work.  

Square peg  round hole dilemma.  You had the square peg and the client had
a round hole.  Just like when we sat around the table and discussed; there
is no one product or brand that will meet every need.  I know you're a
company man and I applaud that, but do you really believe Alvarion makes the
best product for every need?

It is important to note I've always maintained Alvarion makes a quality
product...never said otherwise.  The issue I have with VL is it is not a
committed rate business class product.  The referrals you provided me have
told me the same.  Best effort...oh ya, it screams, but put a client that
demands a committed rate plan and it just won't do it consistently in
unfriendly RF environments.  Your own Tech Support will confirm this.  The
proof is in the end result...if the VL could have done the job it would
still be there doing it!

Keep in mind who took the beating on this.  Certainly not Alvarion.  My
company reputation was who took it on the chin with the doctors, not you or
anyone else.  Only because we have a nearly flawless reputation in the local
medical industry did we even get a second chance to make it right.

Try to have a Merry Christmas Patrick.  Don't let a little criticism get to
you so much.  Instead, try listening to the critiques every so often.  You
might just find a couple good ideas that gasp just might improve your
product.  Let me give you a couple hints:

(1)  Dual Polarity via software
(2)  Dual Band
(3)  RX Threshold  (I know, a stretch)
(4)  Improved weather seal that allows a RJ45 to pass through
(5)  Incorporate standardized 568-A or 568-B color codes


More later, but I have a few too many festive Christmas Parties laced with
Eggnog calling me right now.  Maybe I should wrap up some Eggnog and send it
your way?

Best,


Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:44 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to
figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to
manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone
complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line? 

It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to
bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of
choice.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin
configuration.  Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45
connector doesn't fit through the weather seal!  Just about a millimeter
too
small!

When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin
color
code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it?

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought
there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated.
That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not
require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable,
connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. 

So what's the impact overall to you business model under the
AlvarionCOMNET program?

Pat
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
bad connector later.

We have

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Brad Larson
Can anyone else hear the axe grinding in the background..

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 7:04 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Hello Albert,

Can you point me to a URL describing the 586-B2 color code?  I've
searched
for a minute or two, but so far everything comes up with the oranges and
greens in the 1,2,3 and 6 pin locations.  Even if there is a 568-B2
color
code why use that color code when the rest of the world uses basic 568-A
or
568-B?

I think you know as well as I do the design of the weatherproof boot was
an
oversight.  The design team simply took the dimension of a standard RJ45
plug and used that for their ID of the weather seal design.  The
oversight
was the corners of the RJ45 plug are obviously beyond the ID rendering
the
connector unable to pass through.  grin

No, I don't think anyone is going to bite off that a weather seal with a
1mm
larger ID is going to jeopardize the effectiveness of the seal.
Pathetic
attempt to cover a purely obvious design oversight...lol

Merry Christmas!


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Albert
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 5:46 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Hi Brad,

The cable we supply with the VL product is terminated following the
ANSI/EIA/TIA 568-B2 standard. We pre-terminate the cable in an effort to
speed the installation process. The design of the weatherproof boot is
intentional to provide an impervious seal from the elements. 

Having installed more of these radios than I can count in previous
roles, I admit learning another color code can be daunting. But it is
only eight conductors. 

When done properly it tests the same as any other straight cable. 

Happy Holidays!


Eric Albert
Application Engineer
Alvarion, Inc.


 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:15 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin
configuration.  Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45
connector doesn't fit through the weather seal!  Just about a millimeter
too
small!

When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin
color
code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it?

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought
there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated.
That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not
require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable,
connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas. 

So what's the impact overall to you business model under the
AlvarionCOMNET program?

Pat
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
bad connector later.

We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program
to other products. (Patrick...)

Marty

___
Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]





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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
HAH, yeah, I was digging rather irritatedly around the van looking for a 10
mm wrench on Monday as well... same thing.

I normally do not carry metric tools out on my install rig...

Early in the year, I'm going to pick up some Equinox universal mounts.
Same long arm, heavy pipe...

No 10 mm nuts... and a LOT less expensive.

I'll split a case with ya, if you want :)

Might even drive up there and stick a few needles in coax, if you want :)

ok ok, I won't.   :)

Mark



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:23 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Grin, while I've certainly noticed Brad's almost religious dislike of
 Alvarion I do have to side with him on this.  I just called Ben Moore at
 PacWireless yesterday to bitch about the new Sat. arm mounts he sent me.
 They have some bizarre metric nut on the dang things.  Now I have to carry
 FOUR tools up the ladder.

 Why can't everyone use 7/16, 12mm?  Those are the same size  People
have
 the same size bolts, it's just the damned nut size that they keep screwing
 with.

 If there's a standard out there, please stick with it.  We have enough
 things to remember to do without custom wiring standards or strange
default
 username/password combos!

 Marlon
 (509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
 (408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
 42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
 www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



 - Original Message - 
 From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 1:43 PM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 The gaul of us to create a tight seal. I am sorry you are not able to
 figure out how to attach the connector Brad. Thousands of others seem to
 manage just fine and when is the last time you ever heard of anyone
 complaining about water intrusion into a VL VPE or PoE line?

 It is simply amazing at the lengths you will go to find something to
 bitch about in your attempt to Aspen to switch to you personal vendor of
 choice.

 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Brad Belton
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:15 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 Yep, the cable is pre-terminated in some odd non-code compliant pin
 configuration.  Oh, and pre-terminated due to the fact that the RJ45
 connector doesn't fit through the weather seal!  Just about a millimeter
 too
 small!

 When are you guys going to start using the standard 568A or 568B pin
 color
 code and enlarge that weather seal so a RJ45 connector fits through it?

 Best,


 Brad



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Patrick Leary
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:31 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 Thanks for the validation Marty. I suspect that some might have thought
 there was a catch. I almost forgot that the cable was pre-terminated.
 That's one of the things we don't highlight enough -- VL CPE does not
 require hidden extra things to buy like power supplies, cable,
 connectors, mounting kits, and certainly not antennas.

 So what's the impact overall to you business model under the
 AlvarionCOMNET program?

 Pat
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Marty Dougherty
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:48 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 Well we got our 1st 100 pack of VL Su's under the Comnet program
 yesterday- Just wanted you all to know they are the EXACT same radios as
 before the big price drop- Same high quality metal radio and still
 INCLUDES the mounting hardware AND the pre-made cat5 outdoor cable (60ft
 long)- the cable is worth more then you can imagine- the RJ45 plug is
 already factory terminated and properly shielded so your installers
 don't have to do that up on the roof and you don't have to worry about a
 bad connector later.

 We have deployed a LOT of these radios already and I can tell you this
 is a great price. I'm looking forward to Alvarion extending this program
 to other products. (Patrick...)

 Marty

 ___
 Marty Dougherty
 CEO
 Roadstar Internet Inc.
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]





 -- 
 WISPA

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
Patrick... I find the 48V power thing a HUGE problem.

almost every site I have now is 12V powered...




+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Marlon,

 You say most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them...  In
 response to that reality we created a version of the VL AU for rural
 markets. We came to realize that the cost of a regular of VL AU where
 likely user counts are low simply was not economical. So we came up with
 the AUS. Three VL sectors using the AUS will support 75 users. An AUS
 (list of $2,595) has a limit of 25 attachments, but it can be upgraded
 if the demographics will support it; it is otherwise no different from a
 regular VL AU. Three AUS sectors will cost you about $6k, so about 2.4x
 your more modest three sector arrangement. The install will be easier,
 so that will make up a little (unless you don't count your time as a
 cost). But that will also support about 100mbps net so you can figure
 the math in terms of what can be delivered to subs at your chosen
 oversubscription. And you know it will do that at range LOS since the
 CPE has an integrated 21dBi MTI.

 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:55 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 It's much closer Patrick.  That's for sure.

 Let run some numbers though.

 Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap:
 $450ish.  Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at ranges
 up
 to 10 miles.  1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles.
 Sector antenna, $400.
 Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and
 antenna.
 This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily.
 If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop,
 battery
 backup, switch, cables etc.  If we're lucky that'll even include
 backhaul.

 For CPE the cost is gonna be around:
 15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish
 18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish
 $12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good
 ones
 from PacWireless)
 $10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot)
 Misc. nuts and bolts $20.
 We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor.

 Connectorized version, $180ish
 24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew cast
 magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones))
 Mount, $12
 Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20
 Cable, $10 to $20.

 This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done.

 Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too.  But

 I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of the
 above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural
 areas.

 Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them.  Many are under 10.
 Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100.  Last year we

 installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were
 upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs.  This with
 basically no
 marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition.  Per
 customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive
 services.

 Our network now spans around 6000 square miles.  It's taken over 20
 sites
 with nearly 30 ap's to do this.  Our growth potential is really good.
 But
 not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there won't
 be
 any more customers coming.

 We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear.  Today

 we're using Trango.  $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged out).

 They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the
 box.
 Great security and flexibility.

 Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though.  I
 want
 to go play with the new Alvarion gear, I don't have any single area with

 enough growth to keep me in the program though.  Even with resi.
 customers
 tossed in.  If I were in Spokane, Seattle, Yakima etc. it would be a no
 brainer for me.  The interference robustness, the scalability, the
 upgradeability etc. all make this a much more cut and dried decision.
 Especially the inference issues.  I look at what we fight with out here
 with
 relatively few alien devices in the air.  How guys like Forbes keep
 their
 customers running is a mystery to me.  The manpower overhead has to be a

 killer.

 How do those numbers compare with a similar VL solution

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Patrick Leary
The neg 48vDC is simply an option (standard 100-240 vAC is the other
option) for powering of the rack mounted chassis. In the telecom space
it's very common that folks have racks powered that way. The CPE's
themselves are not 48vDC. On the CPE 54 vDC is sent via PoE up to the
ODU from the IDU.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Koskenmaki
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 6:38 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

Patrick... I find the 48V power thing a HUGE problem.

almost every site I have now is 12V powered...




+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East
Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived


 Marlon,

 You say most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them...  In
 response to that reality we created a version of the VL AU for rural
 markets. We came to realize that the cost of a regular of VL AU where
 likely user counts are low simply was not economical. So we came up
with
 the AUS. Three VL sectors using the AUS will support 75 users. An AUS
 (list of $2,595) has a limit of 25 attachments, but it can be upgraded
 if the demographics will support it; it is otherwise no different from
a
 regular VL AU. Three AUS sectors will cost you about $6k, so about
2.4x
 your more modest three sector arrangement. The install will be easier,
 so that will make up a little (unless you don't count your time as a
 cost). But that will also support about 100mbps net so you can figure
 the math in terms of what can be delivered to subs at your chosen
 oversubscription. And you know it will do that at range LOS since the
 CPE has an integrated 21dBi MTI.

 Patrick Leary
 AVP WISP Markets
 Alvarion, Inc.
 o: 650.314.2628
 c: 760.580.0080
 Vonage: 650.641.1243
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
 Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 11:55 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

 It's much closer Patrick.  That's for sure.

 Let run some numbers though.

 Tranzeo or Inscape Data ap:
 $450ish.  Will deliver an honest 3 to 4 megs to almost anyone at
ranges
 up
 to 10 miles.  1 to 2 megs out to 15 miles.
 Sector antenna, $400.
 Or omni and amp, $500 to $700 depending on the quality of the amp and
 antenna.
 This'll handle roughly 75 to 100 users pretty easily.
 If we need 3 sectors we're still at $2500 or so for the whole pop,
 battery
 backup, switch, cables etc.  If we're lucky that'll even include
 backhaul.

 For CPE the cost is gonna be around:
 15dB integrated antenna version (good to 3 to 5 miles) $180ish
 18dB version (out to around 8 miles) $200ish
 $12ish for antenna brackets (I don't buy the cheap ones, only the good
 ones
 from PacWireless)
 $10 to $20 for cable ($.15 to $.25 per foot)
 Misc. nuts and bolts $20.
 We're at $225 $250 per sub plus labor.

 Connectorized version, $180ish
 24dB grid antenna, $90ish (I don't buy cheap antennas, only Andrew
cast
 magnesium (same as the Alvarion ones))
 Mount, $12
 Misc. nuts and bolt, tape etc. $20
 Cable, $10 to $20.

 This one comes in closer to $350 when it's all said and done.

 Believe me, I understand about the long term maintenance costs too.
But

 I've got to compete against cable, dsl, fiber to the home or all of
the
 above in ALL of my population density centers and a lot of my rural
 areas.

 Most of my towers have fewer than 25 users on them.  Many are under
10.
 Only a few are anywhere near 50 and one serves around 100.  Last year
we

 installed over 80 new radios (some of them were for our use, some were
 upgrades etc.) and have, so far, around 60 new subs.  This with
 basically no
 marketing effort at all, and in the face of amazing competition.  Per
 customer there are VERY few out there that have more competitive
 services.

 Our network now spans around 6000 square miles.  It's taken over 20
 sites
 with nearly 30 ap's to do this.  Our growth potential is really good.
 But
 not in all areas, some areas there just aren't any homes, so there
won't
 be
 any more customers coming.

 We are NOT running business grade services on anyone's wifi gear.
Today

 we're using Trango.  $1200ish per ap and $300ish per cpe (averaged
out).

 They'll deliver 8 to 9 megs of real world throughput right out of the
 box.
 Great security and flexibility.

 Alvarion has been loyal to WISPA and Trango's still not here though.
I
 want
 to go play with the new

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Jon Langeler
With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular 
deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of 
that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS 
capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or 
N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station 
communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all 
use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a 
good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or colocated 
deployment.


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Tom DeReggi wrote:


Charles,

Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty, 
what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day 
with all things considered.
The value of consistent availability and right out of the box 
deployment is PRICELIST!  This doesn't only save cost of installer 
labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition.


I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck. 
I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being 
a stronger residential play.   I recently have done a lot with 
War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because 
I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, 
and great testing tools with things like Iperf  BUILT-IN able to test 
Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops 
increase as the backbone mesh grows.  Alvarion is also a great product 
for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have 
a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots.  
Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new 
low price, is in its residential application. The difference between 
$185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time savings in 
operations.  The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is 
unmatched.  What VL does for me, is that it gives me confidence in 
using subcontractors to isntall. Because I know they'll take the time 
to make sure they get the best signal.  With my other gear, its such a 
pain to get best signal, I was afraid to use contractors and only do 
installs with employees by the hour, so their income did not deter 
them from doing their best job. I gladly pay $100 more for a complete 
ready to go product. The only thing that keeps me from going 100% 
Alvarion for residential is that, I already have 100 APs installed of 
another manufacturer, and I need to focus on revenue not re-build 
out.  Its not just the cost to replace the AP, its the cost to replace 
the consumers without downtime, all at once, when there is little free 
spectrum left to just install a new AP.  To install a new AP, and 
existing AP must be removed first, in many cases.  From a 
performance/reliabilty point of view, there is nothing wrong with the 
gear I previously preferred to use, but from an operations and 
installation point of view, my operations can scale much easier using 
the VL.  Low marging residential is where that matters most.  Its 
important to be able to have consistent install time and meet 
schedules.  The other day I ran out of pigtail. The other day I ran 
out of thin thread stand offs. The other day I ran out of J-Arms. The 
other day I ran out of antennas that came with mounts that support 
2-3/8 pole.  Everyday there is a barrier that delays operations. Sure 
an easy barrier to fix, but still a delay. Instead of focussing on 
sales, I'm focusing on making sure I have enough Gold standoffs in 
stock (5 cent parts).  There is something to be said for what Alvarion 
has offered through the Commnet program, probably one of the strongest 
value propositions offered to date.  Its going to really make the 
competition work.  Just my 2 cents.


The competitions, just better hope that Alvarion doesn't offer an AP 
trade-up program, to help conversion.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband



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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

2006-12-22 Thread Patrick Leary
Jon,

With a proper channel plan that is just not the case, not to mention
things like ATPC. Things like WiMAX use it because there you are dealing
with small frequency allocations where every last ounce of efficiency
needs to be found. In UL that is not the case since there is so much
more spectrum to work with. 

Please don't try to tell me Canopy's use of GPS is good example of UL
efficiency. We both know Canopy's use of GPS is more the reality of the
fact that Canopy is always talking and has no ATPC so the GPS is used to
keep it from stepping on itself. 

And speaking about efficiency, even the Canopy Advantage is a very
inefficient modulation relative to something like VL. Advantage, but
Motorola's own spec sheet, delivers 4.25mbps net typical, 14mbps max (to
1 mile) in a 20MHz channel. VL does over 30mbps net max with typical
over the air in an LOS environment being something like 80% of that well
over 1 mile.

In any event, there exist too many examples to count of scaled VL
networks with co-located cells say you are incorrect in your assertion
that VL can't be built in a cellular topology. It is a silly thing to
assert in fact.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion Comnet Radios have arrived

With VL, you still run into the issue of self interference in a cellular

deployment(many tower sites in a region). The only products I'm aware of

that cooperate properly in a cellular deployment are minimally GPS 
capable, and the advanced products that support things like hand-off or 
N:1 deployment go beyond that with 2-way base station to base station 
communication. Technologies such as wimax, 3G, fiber networks, etc. all 
use GPS to to improve efficiency and operation. IMO VL may still be a 
good product to deploy, but just not in a cellular or colocated 
deployment.

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Charles,

 Although your comment is true, and you left out on the fly flexibilty,

 what people want is not always the best value, at the end of the day 
 with all things considered.
 The value of consistent availability and right out of the box 
 deployment is PRICELIST!  This doesn't only save cost of installer 
 labor, but also management labor in purchasing and aquisition.

 I'll share something from my experience that I find is Ironic as heck.

 I always looked at Alvarion as the high end market gear, but its being

 a stronger residential play.   I recently have done a lot with 
 War/StarV3 for high end business, mostly Point to Point links, because

 I can get good speed, flexibilty to reach the neighboring building, 
 and great testing tools with things like Iperf  BUILT-IN able to test 
 Ethernet connections as well as RF conclusively link by link, as hops 
 increase as the backbone mesh grows.  Alvarion is also a great product

 for high end business, which I'm also using in some cases, but I have 
 a higher cost to accomplish that, since StarOS has dual radio slots.  
 Where Alvarion has now shown undisputable advantage based on its new 
 low price, is in its residential application. The difference between 
 $185 and $285, is almost nothing compared to my time savings in 
 operations.  The ease of opening the box and installing a VL is 
 unmatched.  What VL does for me, is that it gives me confidence in 
 using subcontractors to isntall. Because I know they'll take the time 
 to make sure they get the best signal.  With my other gear, its such a

 pain to get best signal, I was afraid to use contractors and only do 
 installs with employees by the hour, so their income did not deter 
 them from doing their best job. I gladly pay $100 more for a complete 
 ready to go product. The only thing that keeps me from going 100% 
 Alvarion for residential is that, I already have 100 APs installed of 
 another manufacturer, and I need to focus on revenue not re-build 
 out.  Its not just the cost to replace the AP, its the cost to replace

 the consumers without downtime, all at once, when there is little free

 spectrum left to just install a new AP.  To install a new AP, and 
 existing AP must be removed first, in many cases.  From a 
 performance/reliabilty point of view, there is nothing wrong with the 
 gear I previously preferred to use, but from an operations and 
 installation point of view, my operations can scale much easier using 
 the VL.  Low marging residential is where that matters most.  Its 
 important to be able to have consistent install time and meet 
 schedules.  The other day I ran out of pigtail. The other day I ran 
 out of thin thread stand offs. The other day I ran out of J-Arms. The 
 other day I ran out of antennas that came with mounts that support 
 2-3/8 pole.  Everyday

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