Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-22 Thread Tom DeReggi

Sam,


The problem here is how do you define a monopoly, a


The definition is of course the other provider :-)
No seriously, definition of Monopoly...
1)  I believe to own the title of a Monopoly, there has to be some scale 
involved. Anyone under 10mil annual revenue is exempt.
2) A Monopoly is someone that has an advantage that creates a unpassable 
barrier to entry for their competitor.


Monopoly does NOT mean only/sole provider in town.
A WISP could NEVER be a Monopoly, because anyone else can start a WISP in 
town, anyday that they like.


A new entrant however, can not have the exclusive franchise that the other 
already has. Or the cash scale, to take all or nothing of the huge statewide 
market, qualifying for the rights.
Nor is it viable to dig up the streets and lay new cable, and have a chance 
at profitabilty, with the minimal market share of the few that would 
initially convert.
When we competed against Cox, when it came down to it, they just gave 
broadband away for free, until we went away, as their operations were 
subsidized by all the other live markets.


If their market won't bear the cost for an independent ISP to offer service 
than the argument has been settled that the public is satisfied with the 
price/performance that they are receiving.


Wrong, monopoloes existing is what prevents that from being true. The 
monopoly provider has unfair leverage that can squash the new entrant, even 
if a good percentage of the consumers would desire it.  Its the above 
mentality that allows the US to be 17 place horders behind the rest of the 
world in Broadband. The truth is, the public will settle for less than they 
want, and take the best deal they can find, but that does not mean that they 
are satisfied. Encouraging competition is what forces providers to give 
more, so that eventually consumers will also get what they want and be 
satisfied.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P



Tom DeReggi wrote:
No offense taken. Its the opinions from all, that allows us to reconsider 
a better balanced perspective.


I may have been a bit over the top on my previous statements, but none 
the less, I do not agree with Comcast's position on this topic.
It doesn't sit right with me, and I don't think it will sit right with 
the consumers.
Apparently, some others agree, or the News arcticle would not have been 
written, and caught significant media attention in other publications as 
well.
Only time watching the situation will determine whether most consumers 
will

agree or disagree with that type of methods.

My opinion stems deep from one core principle

Monopolies exclusive franchises that subsidize their broadband product 
should not have the same rights as independant ISPs.
When someone is a Monopoly the arguement Its my network, I have the 
right to do what ever I want doesn't really apply, as the Monopoly 
network is also the primary sometimes only network to serve the majority 
public in an area, and therefore the people's only network in 
practicality.  True competition does not yet exist for all consumers. 
These exclusive franchise rights have been extended by the county or 
state to the provider, and the Government works for the people. Therefore 
the people should have some say in what practices their monopoly provider 
practices. Comcast is a monopoly or as near it as a company can possibly 
be. One company should not be able to make the decision of what is and is 
not acceptable for consumers use on the Public Internet. And I consider 
Comcast part of the public Internet. There is an obligation by these 
Broadband monopolies to live by example, and deal with these topics in 
the absolute most ethical way.  Because if they can't do it, at their 
volume, no one can.  I am not convinced that Comcast has found the most 
ethical way to handle the p2p issue.  I do believe they are exploring to 
find it, and testing the waters of what consumers feel is ethical, and 
everyone else will learn from it.
The problem here is how do you define a monopoly, and can that definition 
ever change?  Was I the monopoly when I was the only guy in town providing 
high speed?  Did I lose that distinction when Qwest finally started 
offering DSL?


Side note: Your arguement on comparing smtp tarpiting to p2p blocking 
does have merit, but depending on how stringent it is configured.  What 
thresholds for max connections is acceptable to consider something an 
attack versus a legitimate high volume communication? And are the 
tarpiting rules treating different senders differently?  What if 
Comcast's tarpit was set to allow 1 Email an hour from ISPX, and argue 2 
messages an hour was abuse, would that be ethical at those thresholds? 
If ATT did the same thing

Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-21 Thread Tom DeReggi
No offense taken. Its the opinions from all, that allows us to reconsider a 
better balanced perspective.


I may have been a bit over the top on my previous statements, but none the 
less, I do not agree with Comcast's position on this topic.
It doesn't sit right with me, and I don't think it will sit right with the 
consumers.
Apparently, some others agree, or the News arcticle would not have been 
written, and caught significant media attention in other publications as 
well.

Only time watching the situation will determine whether most consumers will
agree or disagree with that type of methods.

My opinion stems deep from one core principle

Monopolies exclusive franchises that subsidize their broadband product 
should not have the same rights as independant ISPs.
When someone is a Monopoly the arguement Its my network, I have the right 
to do what ever I want doesn't really apply, as the Monopoly network is 
also the primary sometimes only network to serve the majority public in an 
area, and therefore the people's only network in practicality.  True 
competition does not yet exist for all consumers. These exclusive franchise 
rights have been extended by the county or state to the provider, and the 
Government works for the people. Therefore the people should have some say 
in what practices their monopoly provider practices. Comcast is a monopoly 
or as near it as a company can possibly be. One company should not be able 
to make the decision of what is and is not acceptable for consumers use on 
the Public Internet. And I consider Comcast part of the public Internet. 
There is an obligation by these Broadband monopolies to live by example, and 
deal with these topics in the absolute most ethical way.  Because if they 
can't do it, at their volume, no one can.  I am not convinced that Comcast 
has found the most ethical way to handle the p2p issue.  I do believe they 
are exploring to find it, and testing the waters of what consumers feel is 
ethical, and everyone else will learn from it.


Side note: Your arguement on comparing smtp tarpiting to p2p blocking does 
have merit, but depending on how stringent it is configured.  What 
thresholds for max connections is acceptable to consider something an attack 
versus a legitimate high volume communication? And are the tarpiting rules 
treating different senders differently?  What if Comcast's tarpit was set to 
allow 1 Email an hour from ISPX, and argue 2 messages an hour was abuse, 
would that be ethical at those thresholds?  If ATT did the same thing, and 
said it would allow up to 2 simultaneous connectiosn from Sprint customers 
but 50 connections from a TimeWarner customer in an effort to drive 
custoemrs from Sprint, would it be ethical? Should an end user not be 
allowed to do ANY p2p, or what max number of sessions is an OK number?


I am biased on these issues because I am daily competing against these guys. 
I loose business to them on some occasions because they quote their 6mbps 
unlimited access, winning over my 1mbps access. Yet, my customers may be 
able to outperform Comcast with Voip or Keeping their IPOD updated with 
songs (p2p), because of our more liberal non-blocking policies.  For me the 
big issue is disclosure, so consumers can make decissions considering all 
factors.  I don;t see any of Comcast's sales literature exposing their 
methods? Sure there are acceptable use policies, but do end users really 
understand what they are reading? Do they have a choice if they don't like 
what they read?



Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 1:32 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P



On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, Tom DeReggi wrote:


Interesting arcticle.


Certainly it was.  It was well written BS!

My belief is that any ISP has the right to control usage of their network. 
But this arcticle was most interesting because it was addressing what are 
the ethical ways to accomplish that. The last


We are in agreement on your first sentence, but the second begins the 
issue I have with what appears to be a stance that I would disagree 
with.


few sentances summarizing of the arcticle homing in on the issue. 
Basically bringing out that Comcast's action are unscrupulous because the 
actions are happening behind the scenes, hiding that


This part I agree with, too.  If they are attempting to hide the fact 
that they are doing it, then that is, in my opinion, a poor decision. 
These days, you can't get away with that sort of thing.


they are the cause blocking the peer to peer trafic. They are 
misrepresenting their identity on the PCs (identity Fraud). But


This is an inaccurate assumption and application of the term identity 
fraud.  What they are (most likely) doing is sending a TCP reset packet, 
which is the best way to accomplish the task

Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-21 Thread Tom DeReggi




A layman's version (i.e.
File sharing programs such as Limewire will be slower than other
traffic, 128Kbps compared to the standard 5120Kbps) should be included
along with a technical version.



Very well said.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brian Whigham [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P



On Fri, 2007-10-19 at 13:01 -0500, David E. Smith wrote:

CHUCK PROFITO wrote:
 http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071019/D8SCASQ80.html

Comcast has been doing this for a few months, actually. By most
accounts, the traffic is throttled at their network edges - i.e. two
Comcast customers can trade files all they want, the throttling only
kicks in when one of them tries to exchange data with a non-Comcast peer.

My network throttles peer-to-peer traffic because that traffic does
really nasty things to our customer APs (the last-mile hop). Comcast
isn't doing anything there, according to the reports I've seen.

They're probably trying to save a few bucks on interconnectivity and
peering agreements, on the assumption that traffic within their
already-existing network is free.

David Smith
MVN.net


Comcast does not block access to any applications, including
BitTorrent,

The problem with any provider who does traffic shaping is the marketing.
Customers are being deceived.  Providers have been lying or simply not
telling customers about such shaping for years.

Customers expect a vanilla, uninhibited service, either best effort or a
guaranteed speed.  Anything less should be explicitly and plainly
described in a prominent place near the offers/service definitions
themselves.  Shaping, blocked ports and similar restrictions should be
included in this limitations description.  A layman's version (i.e.
File sharing programs such as Limewire will be slower than other
traffic, 128Kbps compared to the standard 5120Kbps) should be included
along with a technical version.

Brian



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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-21 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Sheesh guys, do like we do.  Make money from this stuff.

We bill out hundreds of dollars per month in overage fees when people go over 
their 6 gig transfer limit.  We do NOT control what they do but we do charge 
them.  Just like, um, lets see, gas, food, clothes, electricity, water, tires, 
etc.

We've also found that we're able to get the attention of our customers quite 
quickly and are able to clean up spyware, virus', and bots much better because 
suddenly those with the power to fix the problems have a reason to.  It's been 
a VERY good program for us.

Here's how we track it.  http://radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack

laters,
marlon

  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; WISPA General List 
  Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:56 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P


  I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth, 
transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I do 
from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total bandwidth.

  Travis
  Microserv

  David E. Smith wrote: 
On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:

  Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars.
Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with
BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the
peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.

Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I
strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they
don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in
the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet
arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that
others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.

  What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you
get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
performance
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our
clients in a favorable manner.

A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near
50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
referring to, I don't know what you do mean.

Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs,
as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in
markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because
their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster,
and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a
couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and
while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.

Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their
rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this
particular move, if not to save on peering costs.

David Smith
MVN.net



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-21 Thread Travis Johnson

Marlon,

I'm glad using the metered model works for you... but not in this area, 
nor ANY other area where there is cable, DSL, and 2-10 other wireless 
providers that do not charge based on usage. Yes, I believe it is a 
better model overall, but until the big boys (CableOne, ComCast, Qwest, 
ATT, etc.) adopt this model, it will never sell on a large scale.


Travis
Microserv

Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Sheesh guys, do like we do.  Make money from this stuff.

We bill out hundreds of dollars per month in overage fees when people go over 
their 6 gig transfer limit.  We do NOT control what they do but we do charge 
them.  Just like, um, lets see, gas, food, clothes, electricity, water, tires, 
etc.

We've also found that we're able to get the attention of our customers quite 
quickly and are able to clean up spyware, virus', and bots much better because 
suddenly those with the power to fix the problems have a reason to.  It's been 
a VERY good program for us.

Here's how we track it.  http://radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack

laters,
marlon

  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; WISPA General List 
  Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:56 PM

  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P


  I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth, 
transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I do 
from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total bandwidth.

  Travis
  Microserv

  David E. Smith wrote: 
On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:


  Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars.
Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with
BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the
peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.

Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I

strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they
don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in
the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet
arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that
others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.

  What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you
get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
performance
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our
clients in a favorable manner.

A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near

50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
referring to, I don't know what you do mean.

Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs,
as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in
markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because
their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster,
and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a
couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and
while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.

Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their
rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this
particular move, if not to save on peering costs.

David Smith
MVN.net



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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  ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **
  ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
  ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
  ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
  ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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  WISPA

RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-21 Thread Mac Dearman
Travis,

   Did you sit in on Image Stream's conversations about packet limiting?
I am going to have to find out a little more about that myself.


Mac




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:46 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
 
 Marlon,
 
 I'm glad using the metered model works for you... but not in this area,
 nor ANY other area where there is cable, DSL, and 2-10 other wireless
 providers that do not charge based on usage. Yes, I believe it is a
 better model overall, but until the big boys (CableOne, ComCast, Qwest,
 ATT, etc.) adopt this model, it will never sell on a large scale.
 
 Travis
 Microserv
 
 Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
  Sheesh guys, do like we do.  Make money from this stuff.
 
  We bill out hundreds of dollars per month in overage fees when people
 go over their 6 gig transfer limit.  We do NOT control what they do but
 we do charge them.  Just like, um, lets see, gas, food, clothes,
 electricity, water, tires, etc.
 
  We've also found that we're able to get the attention of our
 customers quite quickly and are able to clean up spyware, virus', and
 bots much better because suddenly those with the power to fix the
 problems have a reason to.  It's been a VERY good program for us.
 
  Here's how we track it.  http://radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack
 
  laters,
  marlon
 
- Original Message -
From: Travis Johnson
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; WISPA General List
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
 
 
I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes
 bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network
 wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using
 25% of our total bandwidth.
 
Travis
Microserv
 
David E. Smith wrote:
  On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:
 
Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect
 dollars.
  Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even
 with
  BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the
  peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.
 
  Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I
  strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they
  don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user
 ISPs in
  the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty
 sweet
  arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own
 that
  others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.
 
What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy
 Comcast you
  get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
  performance
  because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play
 with our
  clients in a favorable manner.
 
  A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere
 near
  50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
  referring to, I don't know what you do mean.
 
  Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p
 needs,
  as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
  hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in
  markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky
 because
  their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times
 faster,
  and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to
 light a
  couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable,
 and
  while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.
 
  Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their
  rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make
 this
  particular move, if not to save on peering costs.
 
  David Smith
  MVN.net
 
  -
 ---
 
  ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007
 at ISPCON **
  ** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com
 **
  ** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
  ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
  ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
 http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **
 
  -
 ---
  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
  -
 ---
 
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RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-21 Thread CHUCK PROFITO
Not for the General List

Chuck Profito
209-988-7388
CV-ACCESS, INC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Providing High Speed Broadband 
to Rural Central California


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 9:03 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P


Travis,

   Did you sit in on Image Stream's conversations about packet limiting? I
am going to have to find out a little more about that myself.


Mac




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
 Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:46 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
 
 Marlon,
 
 I'm glad using the metered model works for you... but not in this 
 area, nor ANY other area where there is cable, DSL, and 2-10 other 
 wireless providers that do not charge based on usage. Yes, I believe 
 it is a better model overall, but until the big boys (CableOne, 
 ComCast, Qwest, ATT, etc.) adopt this model, it will never sell on a 
 large scale.
 
 Travis
 Microserv
 
 Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
  Sheesh guys, do like we do.  Make money from this stuff.
 
  We bill out hundreds of dollars per month in overage fees when 
  people
 go over their 6 gig transfer limit.  We do NOT control what they do 
 but we do charge them.  Just like, um, lets see, gas, food, clothes, 
 electricity, water, tires, etc.
 
  We've also found that we're able to get the attention of our
 customers quite quickly and are able to clean up spyware, virus', and 
 bots much better because suddenly those with the power to fix the 
 problems have a reason to.  It's been a VERY good program for us.
 
  Here's how we track it.  http://radius.odessaoffice.com/iptrack
 
  laters,
  marlon
 
- Original Message -
From: Travis Johnson
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; WISPA General List
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P
 
 
I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes
 bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network 
 wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 
 25% of our total bandwidth.
 
Travis
Microserv
 
David E. Smith wrote:
  On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:
 
Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect
 dollars.
  Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even
 with
  BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the 
  peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.
 
  Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, 
  I strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and 
  they don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest 
  end-user
 ISPs in
  the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty
 sweet
  arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own
 that
  others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.
 
What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy
 Comcast you
  get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve 
  performance because we control the majority market, and we won't let 
  you play
 with our
  clients in a favorable manner.
 
  A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're 
  nowhere
 near
  50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market 
  you're referring to, I don't know what you do mean.
 
  Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p
 needs,
  as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a 
  couple hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using 
  Comcast in markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get 
  cranky
 because
  their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times
 faster,
  and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to
 light a
  couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively 
  palpable,
 and
  while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% 
  smoke.
 
  Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, 
  their rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose 
  to make
 this
  particular move, if not to save on peering costs.
 
  David Smith
  MVN.net
 
  
  -
 ---
 
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RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-21 Thread Butch Evans

On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, Mac Dearman wrote:

Did you sit in on Image Stream's conversations about packet 
limiting? I am going to have to find out a little more about that 
myself.


You are a well connected guy, Maccall in your people and it 
shall be done!  :-)


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html


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**
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RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-21 Thread Butch Evans

On Sun, 21 Oct 2007, CHUCK  PROFITO wrote:


Not for the General List


??  I'm confused...what is not for the General List?

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
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Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html


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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-21 Thread Sam Tetherow

Tom DeReggi wrote:
No offense taken. Its the opinions from all, that allows us to 
reconsider a better balanced perspective.


I may have been a bit over the top on my previous statements, but 
none the less, I do not agree with Comcast's position on this topic.
It doesn't sit right with me, and I don't think it will sit right with 
the consumers.
Apparently, some others agree, or the News arcticle would not have 
been written, and caught significant media attention in other 
publications as well.
Only time watching the situation will determine whether most consumers 
will

agree or disagree with that type of methods.

My opinion stems deep from one core principle

Monopolies exclusive franchises that subsidize their broadband 
product should not have the same rights as independant ISPs.
When someone is a Monopoly the arguement Its my network, I have the 
right to do what ever I want doesn't really apply, as the Monopoly 
network is also the primary sometimes only network to serve the 
majority public in an area, and therefore the people's only network 
in practicality.  True competition does not yet exist for all 
consumers. These exclusive franchise rights have been extended by the 
county or state to the provider, and the Government works for the 
people. Therefore the people should have some say in what practices 
their monopoly provider practices. Comcast is a monopoly or as near it 
as a company can possibly be. One company should not be able to make 
the decision of what is and is not acceptable for consumers use on the 
Public Internet. And I consider Comcast part of the public Internet. 
There is an obligation by these Broadband monopolies to live by 
example, and deal with these topics in the absolute most ethical way.  
Because if they can't do it, at their volume, no one can.  I am not 
convinced that Comcast has found the most ethical way to handle the 
p2p issue.  I do believe they are exploring to find it, and testing 
the waters of what consumers feel is ethical, and everyone else will 
learn from it.
The problem here is how do you define a monopoly, and can that 
definition ever change?  Was I the monopoly when I was the only guy in 
town providing high speed?  Did I lose that distinction when Qwest 
finally started offering DSL?


Side note: Your arguement on comparing smtp tarpiting to p2p blocking 
does have merit, but depending on how stringent it is configured.  
What thresholds for max connections is acceptable to consider 
something an attack versus a legitimate high volume communication? And 
are the tarpiting rules treating different senders differently?  What 
if Comcast's tarpit was set to allow 1 Email an hour from ISPX, and 
argue 2 messages an hour was abuse, would that be ethical at those 
thresholds?  If ATT did the same thing, and said it would allow up to 
2 simultaneous connectiosn from Sprint customers but 50 connections 
from a TimeWarner customer in an effort to drive custoemrs from 
Sprint, would it be ethical? Should an end user not be allowed to do 
ANY p2p, or what max number of sessions is an OK number?
As long as it is disclosed I don't think there is anything wrong with 
it.  I get charged more if I call someone on Sprint's cell network than 
if I call someone on Alltel's network.


I am biased on these issues because I am daily competing against these 
guys. I loose business to them on some occasions because they quote 
their 6mbps unlimited access, winning over my 1mbps access. Yet, 
my customers may be able to outperform Comcast with Voip or Keeping 
their IPOD updated with songs (p2p), because of our more liberal 
non-blocking policies.  For me the big issue is disclosure, so 
consumers can make decissions considering all factors.  I don;t see 
any of Comcast's sales literature exposing their methods? Sure there 
are acceptable use policies, but do end users really understand what 
they are reading? Do they have a choice if they don't like what they 
read?
They always have a choice.  Pretty much anyone can start a wireless ISP 
and there are hundreds of people on this list that prove that point, 
some of us have larger learning curves than others but I poll of 
previous occupations would probably produce some interesting reading.


 If their market won't bear the cost for an independent ISP to offer 
service than the argument has been settled that the public is satisfied 
with the price/performance that they are receiving.


   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless




Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband



SNIP


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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-20 Thread Scottie Arnett
They are using Sandvine to do it: 
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18323368-Comcast-is-using-Sandvine-to-manage-P2P-Connections

Here is a list of many USA ISP's shaping them: 
http://www.azureuswiki.com/index.php/Bad_ISPs#United_States_of_America

Someone a while back posted a link on how to get around it?

-- Original Message --
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:26:03 -0400

In all fairness... This thread is not about whether it is right or wrong to 
block p2p. We probably all agree how harmful p2p traffic can be.
Its essential to try and block it.

The unsure part is What is an ethical way to block it.

An ISP may have the right to define what goes accross its network, but an 
ISP does not have the right to re-write the constitution or federal law, on 
their own.
And Competition laws, Privacy laws, Consumer Laws, and Identity Laws are 
things that exist. Just like Calea... the issue is privacy not 
necessarilly whether we feel its god or bad to help our country's law 
enforcement.  It will be interesting to see how these topics play out.  But 
more so how large providers will hide behind these excuses Protecting the 
Performance of their network to leverage their way around Network 
Neutrality issues, for their competitive advantage.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P


 Scottie Arnett wrote:

 Forgot to mention...if BT clients would not come with deafult connections
 set at 500 to 1000, I might allow it to. That is where it kills our
 equipment...the connections, not the bandwidth.

 Concur, and THAT is why I limit p2p traffic on my network.

 Frankly, I couldn't care less what my customers are downloading, only how 
 they're downloading it.

 We all know that some really big percentage of p2p traffic is the sharing 
 of copyrighted material that may be illegal to share, but saying that's 
 the reason for throttling p2p traffic is probably pretty thorny, from a 
 legal standpoint. Explaining it in technical terms (all these connections 
 kills the tower and annoys other users) is safer, and as a bonus is 
 completely true. It's actually more effective on many of my customers, who 
 suddenly realize that the folks being affected by their selfish p2p 
 downloads are friends and neighbors. Psychology, used correctly, can be 
 just as effective as a Packeteer.

 David Smith
 MVN.net
 

 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
 ISPCON **
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-20 Thread George Rogato
I'm not sure if we're talking about limiting the connections just for 
torrents, or for everything.


If you can limit the connections just for torrents and leave everything 
else wide open, that would be great, but if by limiting the connections 
for everything, then that is not the solution being sought after.


What was said by many others at the conference was limit the torrents 
and at the same time be able to ftp or mail what ever at a much higher 
rate.



Butch Evans wrote:

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, George Rogato wrote:

A couple names that came up was Imagestream, who says they can control 
the amount of connections to help control p2p. Jeff will step in and 
correct me if I'm wrong.


You are correct.  Mikrotik can do the same.  ANY Linux based system can 
limit connections, because it's built into iptables.  Frankly, this is 
the method I use to set up QOS (part of it, anyway), because it is the 
ONLY effective way to limit the negative impact of these torrents.  





** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-20 Thread Butch Evans

On Sat, 20 Oct 2007, George Rogato wrote:

I'm not sure if we're talking about limiting the connections just 
for torrents, or for everything.


There are many ways to limit connections.  With iptables (and 
considerable time and effort), you can put together quite a complex 
set of tests to limit torrents without even testing for p2p.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Tom DeReggi
They're probably trying to save a few bucks on interconnectivity and 
peering agreements, on the assumption that traffic within their 
already-existing network is free.


Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars. 
Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with 
BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the peering 
relationships if anything because of their ratios.


What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you 
get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve performance 
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our 
clients in a favorable manner.  This is EXACTLY what NetNetrality is about, 
having a different standard for clients of another provider than one has for 
their own.  If they Equally blocked BitTotrrent for their own subscribers, 
then it could be argued they are treating all traffic equally, and not a 
NetNetrality violation, but just a Privacy violation.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P



CHUCK PROFITO wrote:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071019/D8SCASQ80.html


Comcast has been doing this for a few months, actually. By most accounts, 
the traffic is throttled at their network edges - i.e. two Comcast 
customers can trade files all they want, the throttling only kicks in when 
one of them tries to exchange data with a non-Comcast peer.


My network throttles peer-to-peer traffic because that traffic does really 
nasty things to our customer APs (the last-mile hop). Comcast isn't doing 
anything there, according to the reports I've seen.


They're probably trying to save a few bucks on interconnectivity and 
peering agreements, on the assumption that traffic within their 
already-existing network is free.


David Smith
MVN.net


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Luke Pack

very well said.

I would not assume the right to totally block any traffic, but there's 
nothing wrong with slowing it down as long as honesty is the main policy. 
even the strongest torrent user can't deny the fairness of slowing them down 
so others can brows/use the internet at a good speed.


Luke


- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 2:17 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P



Interesting arcticle.

My belief is that any ISP has the right to control usage of their network. 
But this arcticle was most interesting because it was addressing what are 
the ethical ways to accomplish that. The last few sentances summarizing of 
the arcticle homing in on the issue.
Basically bringing out that Comcast's action are unscrupulous because the 
actions are happening behind the scenes, hiding that they are the cause 
blocking the peer to peer trafic. They are misrepresenting their identity 
on the PCs (identity Fraud). But most importantly, they are intercepting 
someone else's data communication stream and barging in on the 
conversation (Invasion of Privacy).  For example, simply blocking a 
BitTorrent or slowing iut down would be OK, as you aren't joining the 
conversation, just blocking it. But jumping in on the conversation and 
sending back false information across someone else's Bittorrent 
conversation is clearly a violation of privacy. Wait until they decide its 
a good idea to apply the same principle to Email delivery. Scary.


These are the things I hate most. Companies blocking, but not being man 
enough to step up to the plate and tell their client base how they are 
blocking it. They are deceiving their clients.  But yet, consumers are 
jumping to sign up, not being aware how they may be limited once they do.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: CHUCK PROFITO [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:17 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P




http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071019/D8SCASQ80.html

Chuck Profito
209-988-7388
CV-ACCESS, INC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Providing High Speed Broadband
to Rural Central California




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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread David E. Smith

Scottie Arnett wrote:


Forgot to mention...if BT clients would not come with deafult connections
set at 500 to 1000, I might allow it to. That is where it kills our
equipment...the connections, not the bandwidth.


Concur, and THAT is why I limit p2p traffic on my network.

Frankly, I couldn't care less what my customers are downloading, only 
how they're downloading it.


We all know that some really big percentage of p2p traffic is the 
sharing of copyrighted material that may be illegal to share, but saying 
that's the reason for throttling p2p traffic is probably pretty thorny, 
from a legal standpoint. Explaining it in technical terms (all these 
connections kills the tower and annoys other users) is safer, and as a 
bonus is completely true. It's actually more effective on many of my 
customers, who suddenly realize that the folks being affected by their 
selfish p2p downloads are friends and neighbors. Psychology, used 
correctly, can be just as effective as a Packeteer.


David Smith
MVN.net


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Scottie Arnett


I must say, I misworded my statements. We allow it, but throttle and shape
it. If they fixed the problems with it, I would let it go full throttle
should have been how I worded it.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P


Scottie Arnett wrote:

 Forgot to mention...if BT clients would not come with deafult
 connections set at 500 to 1000, I might allow it to. That is where it 
 kills our equipment...the connections, not the bandwidth.

Concur, and THAT is why I limit p2p traffic on my network.

Frankly, I couldn't care less what my customers are downloading, only 
how they're downloading it.

We all know that some really big percentage of p2p traffic is the 
sharing of copyrighted material that may be illegal to share, but saying 
that's the reason for throttling p2p traffic is probably pretty thorny, 
from a legal standpoint. Explaining it in technical terms (all these 
connections kills the tower and annoys other users) is safer, and as a 
bonus is completely true. It's actually more effective on many of my 
customers, who suddenly realize that the folks being affected by their 
selfish p2p downloads are friends and neighbors. Psychology, used 
correctly, can be just as effective as a Packeteer.

David Smith
MVN.net



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Matt
 from a legal standpoint. Explaining it in technical terms (all these
 connections kills the tower and annoys other users) is safer, and as a
 bonus is completely true. It's actually more effective on many of my
 customers, who suddenly realize that the folks being affected by their
 selfish p2p downloads are friends and neighbors. Psychology, used
 correctly, can be just as effective as a Packeteer.

Tell they switch too cable or dsl and say they did it because its not
a problem there.  Of course if they were major bandwidth hogs what the
hey.

Matt


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Scottie Arnett


In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can setup and
use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Smith, Rick
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P


25 ?!  You're lucky.  If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p matching
via firewall mangles, the network

will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%.

 

I limit p2p down  uploads to 1kbps.  Sue me.

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

 

I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth,
transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I
do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total
bandwidth.

Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote: 

On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:
 
  

Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars.
Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even
with
BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the
peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.


 
Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I
strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't
generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the
States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet
arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that
others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.
 
  

What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy
Comcast you
get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
performance
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play
with our
clients in a favorable manner.


 
A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near
50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
referring to, I don't know what you do mean.
 
Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs,
as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets
where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend
on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well
leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months
ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was
probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.
 
Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules.
Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this
particular move, if not to save on peering costs.
 
David Smith
MVN.net
 


 
** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Tom DeReggi
In all fairness... This thread is not about whether it is right or wrong to 
block p2p. We probably all agree how harmful p2p traffic can be.

Its essential to try and block it.

The unsure part is What is an ethical way to block it.

An ISP may have the right to define what goes accross its network, but an 
ISP does not have the right to re-write the constitution or federal law, on 
their own.
And Competition laws, Privacy laws, Consumer Laws, and Identity Laws are 
things that exist. Just like Calea... the issue is privacy not 
necessarilly whether we feel its god or bad to help our country's law 
enforcement.  It will be interesting to see how these topics play out.  But 
more so how large providers will hide behind these excuses Protecting the 
Performance of their network to leverage their way around Network 
Neutrality issues, for their competitive advantage.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 5:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P



Scottie Arnett wrote:


Forgot to mention...if BT clients would not come with deafult connections
set at 500 to 1000, I might allow it to. That is where it kills our
equipment...the connections, not the bandwidth.


Concur, and THAT is why I limit p2p traffic on my network.

Frankly, I couldn't care less what my customers are downloading, only how 
they're downloading it.


We all know that some really big percentage of p2p traffic is the sharing 
of copyrighted material that may be illegal to share, but saying that's 
the reason for throttling p2p traffic is probably pretty thorny, from a 
legal standpoint. Explaining it in technical terms (all these connections 
kills the tower and annoys other users) is safer, and as a bonus is 
completely true. It's actually more effective on many of my customers, who 
suddenly realize that the folks being affected by their selfish p2p 
downloads are friends and neighbors. Psychology, used correctly, can be 
just as effective as a Packeteer.


David Smith
MVN.net


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Tom DeReggi
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with 
our

clients in a favorable manner.


My mistake, majority Market was not the right word. Almost Largest 
percentage of the market might be more appropriate. My understanding is 
that Comcast has the second largest share of Residential users next to 
TimeWarner.


However, I'm not sure I understand your perspective on Comcast. I'll give 
you that Comcast is not in the market of selling Transit not a Tier1. But 
they definately peer.
If they aren't charging others to access their eyeballs, they are fools, 
because they have the power, market share, and download ratios to demand it. 
Many of Comcast's markets, they are  the sole single provider option (within 
similar price range), therefore have leverage to demand with less fear that 
their client base will move.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P



On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:


Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars.
Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with
BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the
peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.


Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I
strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they
don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in
the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet
arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that
others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.


What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you
get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
performance
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with 
our

clients in a favorable manner.


A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near
50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
referring to, I don't know what you do mean.

Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs,
as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in
markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because
their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster,
and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a
couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and
while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.

Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their
rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this
particular move, if not to save on peering costs.

David Smith
MVN.net



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread George Rogato



Funny this came up today in the paper.

At this last weeks ISPCON, one of the hot finds us wisps were actively 
looking for on the tradeshow floor was bandwidth management appliance 
that we can use to control encrypted torrents and at the same time give 
the user high bandwidth for the other intermitant applications.


I didn't hear anyone saying they wanted to turn off the torrents or p2p, 
but rather control it so it plays nice with the network.


A couple names that came up was Imagestream, who says they can control 
the amount of connections to help control p2p.

Jeff will step in and correct me if I'm wrong.

And then there was Dennis' Itenic bandwidth manager that is supposed to 
work. And on the ispcon floor there was a couple other companies that 
had products they too said they could control p2p.


So this article is like a bulls eye for a hot topic.

--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Mike Hammett
Mikrotik can control raw connections as well, but UDP is not connection 
based.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P





Funny this came up today in the paper.

At this last weeks ISPCON, one of the hot finds us wisps were actively 
looking for on the tradeshow floor was bandwidth management appliance that 
we can use to control encrypted torrents and at the same time give the 
user high bandwidth for the other intermitant applications.


I didn't hear anyone saying they wanted to turn off the torrents or p2p, 
but rather control it so it plays nice with the network.


A couple names that came up was Imagestream, who says they can control the 
amount of connections to help control p2p.

Jeff will step in and correct me if I'm wrong.

And then there was Dennis' Itenic bandwidth manager that is supposed to 
work. And on the ispcon floor there was a couple other companies that had 
products they too said they could control p2p.


So this article is like a bulls eye for a hot topic.

--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Mike Hammett
What gets you peers is a balanced ratio.  If it exceeds a certain ratio, 
whomever is the one that initiates the transaction is usually the one that 
pays.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P


because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with 
our

clients in a favorable manner.


My mistake, majority Market was not the right word. Almost Largest 
percentage of the market might be more appropriate. My understanding is 
that Comcast has the second largest share of Residential users next to 
TimeWarner.


However, I'm not sure I understand your perspective on Comcast. I'll give 
you that Comcast is not in the market of selling Transit not a Tier1. But 
they definately peer.
If they aren't charging others to access their eyeballs, they are fools, 
because they have the power, market share, and download ratios to demand 
it. Many of Comcast's markets, they are  the sole single provider option 
(within similar price range), therefore have leverage to demand with less 
fear that their client base will move.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P



On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:


Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars.
Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with
BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the
peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.


Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I
strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they
don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs 
in
the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty 
sweet

arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that
others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.

What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast 
you

get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
performance
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with 
our

clients in a favorable manner.


A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere 
near

50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
referring to, I don't know what you do mean.

Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p 
needs,

as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in
markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because
their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times 
faster,

and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a
couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and
while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.

Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their
rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make 
this

particular move, if not to save on peering costs.

David Smith
MVN.net



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 
10/19/2007 5:10 AM







** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com

Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, Mike Hammett wrote:

Mikrotik can control raw connections as well, but UDP is not 
connection based.


Absolutely correct.  However, the linux iptables connection tracking 
does not care if it is UDP or TCP.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html


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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Travis Johnson




Mikrotik just released a new update today with "improved warez/ares p2p
protocol matching".

Travis
Microserv

Matt wrote:

  
25 ?!  You're lucky.  If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p
matching via firewall mangles, the network

will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%.



I limit p2p down  uploads to 1kbps.  Sue me.

  
  
My experience anymore is Mikrotik cannot do a very good job at
catching it anymore.  They encrypt the packets now days to make it
very difficult.

I still think the best option is to let users eat as much as they want
but at peak times throttle the bandwidth hogs back to make sure it
works well for everyone else.

Matt


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON **
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Travis Johnson
I was talking on my backbone to my upstreams... which is currently 
running at 105Mbps incoming x 45Mbps outgoing. 25% of the incoming is 
p2p if I turn off my queues. I don't see how 99% of your traffic could 
be p2p, because people will still be surfing and checking email, etc. 
which will have to get shared as the nature of tcp allows.


Travis
Microserv

Smith, Rick wrote:

25 ?!  You're lucky.  If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p
matching via firewall mangles, the network

will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%.

 


I limit p2p down  uploads to 1kbps.  Sue me.

 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

 


I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes
bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide
open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of
our total bandwidth.

Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote: 


On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:
 
  


Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect
dollars.
Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload
even with
BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for
the
peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.
	

 
Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I

strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they
don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs
in
the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty
sweet
arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own
that
others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.
 
  


What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy
Comcast you
get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
performance
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you
play with our
clients in a favorable manner.
	

 
A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere

near
50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
referring to, I don't know what you do mean.
 
Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p

needs,
as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in
markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because
their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times
faster,
and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light
a
couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable,
and
while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.
 
Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their

rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make
this
particular move, if not to save on peering costs.
 
David Smith

MVN.net
 



 
** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at

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RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Scottie Arnett


Forgot to mention...if BT clients would not come with deafult connections
set at 500 to 1000, I might allow it to. That is where it kills our
equipment...the connections, not the bandwidth.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:12 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P


Scottie Arnett wrote:

 In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can
 setup and use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO.

You've obviously never been on a well-seeded torrent. :)

Seriously, plug yourself into your NOC right after a big Linux release 
(the new version of Ubuntu, released earlier this week, would be a good 
example). One of the fellows in my office did this yesterday, and was 
pulling about 30Mbps for the (very brief) time he needed to download the 
CD image.

You may need a fairly new computer, to be sure the networking stack and 
hard drive can keep up. A few years back, I did this same experiment 
with an older notebook; somewhere around 8Mbps, the laptop just locked 
up, and the hard drive (which was audibly crunching from all the random 
writes being asked of it) never worked again :(

Not many Web sites or FTP servers, aside from ones set up specifically 
for this sort of thing, match that speed. The best downloads I normally 
get from Microsoft (presumably an Akamai mirror of them, actually) is 
maybe 10-15Mbps.

 From a purely technical standpoint, BitTorrent is amazingly efficient 
at distributing copies of bits. It's those other things like economics 
that are such a problem at times...

David Smith
MVN.net



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
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** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Matt
 25 ?!  You're lucky.  If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p
 matching via firewall mangles, the network

 will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%.



 I limit p2p down  uploads to 1kbps.  Sue me.

My experience anymore is Mikrotik cannot do a very good job at
catching it anymore.  They encrypt the packets now days to make it
very difficult.

I still think the best option is to let users eat as much as they want
but at peak times throttle the bandwidth hogs back to make sure it
works well for everyone else.

Matt


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


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RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Scottie Arnett


I can understand what you are saying, it BT is an efficient way to send
data. The problem lies in the 99.998% of what is transferred is illegal
files that are copyrighted. If BT could take care of that problem, I might
allow it on my network. For now, I use ftp.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 4:12 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P


Scottie Arnett wrote:

 In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can
 setup and use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO.

You've obviously never been on a well-seeded torrent. :)

Seriously, plug yourself into your NOC right after a big Linux release 
(the new version of Ubuntu, released earlier this week, would be a good 
example). One of the fellows in my office did this yesterday, and was 
pulling about 30Mbps for the (very brief) time he needed to download the 
CD image.

You may need a fairly new computer, to be sure the networking stack and 
hard drive can keep up. A few years back, I did this same experiment 
with an older notebook; somewhere around 8Mbps, the laptop just locked 
up, and the hard drive (which was audibly crunching from all the random 
writes being asked of it) never worked again :(

Not many Web sites or FTP servers, aside from ones set up specifically 
for this sort of thing, match that speed. The best downloads I normally 
get from Microsoft (presumably an Akamai mirror of them, actually) is 
maybe 10-15Mbps.

 From a purely technical standpoint, BitTorrent is amazingly efficient 
at distributing copies of bits. It's those other things like economics 
that are such a problem at times...

David Smith
MVN.net



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007
5:10 AM
 

-- 
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed
2481 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their
emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007
5:10 AM
 

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Check out www.info-ed.com for information.


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Mike Hammett
Except for the growing number of perfectly legal things available via P2P 
systems (Linux discs, updates for Blizzard Entertainment's World of Warcraft 
which surpassed 9 million subscribers in July, Wikipedia CD, OpenOffice, 
I've heard that Steam's 13 million users might be adopting P2P).



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P




In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can setup and
use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Smith, Rick
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P


25 ?!  You're lucky.  If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p matching
via firewall mangles, the network

will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%.



I limit p2p down  uploads to 1kbps.  Sue me.



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P



I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth,
transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I
do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total
bandwidth.

Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:

On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:



Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars.
Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even
with
BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the
peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.



Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I
strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't
generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the
States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet
arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that
others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.



What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy
Comcast you
get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
performance
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play
with our
clients in a favorable manner.



A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near
50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
referring to, I don't know what you do mean.

Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs,
as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets
where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend
on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well
leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months
ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was
probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.

Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules.
Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this
particular move, if not to save on peering costs.

David Smith
MVN.net




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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http

Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Mike Hammett
Except for the growing number of perfectly legal things available via P2P 
systems (Linux discs, updates for Blizzard Entertainment's World of Warcraft 
which surpassed 9 million subscribers in July, Wikipedia CD, OpenOffice, 
I've heard that Steam's 13 million users might be adopting P2P).



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Scottie Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P




In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can setup and
use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Smith, Rick
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P


25 ?!  You're lucky.  If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p matching
via firewall mangles, the network

will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%.



I limit p2p down  uploads to 1kbps.  Sue me.



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P



I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes bandwidth,
transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide open (which I
do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of our total
bandwidth.

Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:

On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:



Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars.
Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even
with
BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the
peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.



Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I
strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they don't
generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in the
States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet
arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that
others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.



What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy
Comcast you
get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
performance
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play
with our
clients in a favorable manner.



A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near
50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
referring to, I don't know what you do mean.

Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs,
as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in markets
where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because their friend
on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster, and may well
leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a couple months
ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and while it was
probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.

Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their rules.
Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this
particular move, if not to save on peering costs.

David Smith
MVN.net




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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http

Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread David E. Smith

Scottie Arnett wrote:


In my opinion, if they have something legit to transfer, they can setup and
use ftp. It works faster anyways IMHO.


You've obviously never been on a well-seeded torrent. :)

Seriously, plug yourself into your NOC right after a big Linux release 
(the new version of Ubuntu, released earlier this week, would be a good 
example). One of the fellows in my office did this yesterday, and was 
pulling about 30Mbps for the (very brief) time he needed to download the 
CD image.


You may need a fairly new computer, to be sure the networking stack and 
hard drive can keep up. A few years back, I did this same experiment 
with an older notebook; somewhere around 8Mbps, the laptop just locked 
up, and the hard drive (which was audibly crunching from all the random 
writes being asked of it) never worked again :(


Not many Web sites or FTP servers, aside from ones set up specifically 
for this sort of thing, match that speed. The best downloads I normally 
get from Microsoft (presumably an Akamai mirror of them, actually) is 
maybe 10-15Mbps.


From a purely technical standpoint, BitTorrent is amazingly efficient 
at distributing copies of bits. It's those other things like economics 
that are such a problem at times...


David Smith
MVN.net


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
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RE: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Smith, Rick
25 ?!  You're lucky.  If I stop my Mikrotik queues based on all-p2p
matching via firewall mangles, the network

will come to a stop because usage will go to 99%.

 

I limit p2p down  uploads to 1kbps.  Sue me.

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 3:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

 

I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes
bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network wide
open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using 25% of
our total bandwidth.

Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote: 

On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:
 
  

Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect
dollars.
Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload
even with
BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for
the
peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.


 
Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I
strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they
don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs
in
the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty
sweet
arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own
that
others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.
 
  

What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy
Comcast you
get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
performance
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you
play with our
clients in a favorable manner.


 
A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere
near
50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
referring to, I don't know what you do mean.
 
Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p
needs,
as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in
markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because
their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times
faster,
and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light
a
couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable,
and
while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.
 
Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their
rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make
this
particular move, if not to save on peering costs.
 
David Smith
MVN.net
 


 
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread David E. Smith
On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars.
 Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with
 BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the
 peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.

Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I
strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they
don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in
the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet
arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that
others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.

 What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you
 get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
 performance
 because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our
 clients in a favorable manner.

A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near
50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
referring to, I don't know what you do mean.

Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs,
as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in
markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because
their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster,
and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a
couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and
while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.

Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their
rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this
particular move, if not to save on peering costs.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, Tom DeReggi wrote:

What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy 
Comcast you get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you


Isn't that an ideal public perception?  I mean, if I could get 
people to understand that one reason my network is better than 
network X is performance (or any other aspect), then that is 
beneficial, right?  Come on...this is an argument FOR what Comcast 
is doing, IMHO.


we won't let you play with our clients in a favorable manner. 
This is EXACTLY what NetNetrality is about, having a different 
standard for clients of another provider than one has for their


Net Neutrality is BS anyway.  (Hope I can abbreviate the curse 
word).  And this move has NOTHING to do with neutrality anyway. 
Perhaps an argument can be made to make it seem that way, but it is 
(at least in part) about network management.  I see nothing wrong 
with what Comcast did.  In fact, I applaud their willingness to 
stand up and say enough is enough.  The simple fact is that this 
software is a killer app (not the kind we were looking for, but 
one that is killer to the network).



own.  If they Equally blocked BitTotrrent for their own 
subscribers, then it could be argued they are treating all traffic 
equally, and not a NetNetrality violation, but just a Privacy 
violation.


Privacy?  Give me a break.  I'll post a response to your other post 
related to privacy, but the idea that it can be argued that equally 
blocking bit torrent flows in both directions is the best way to 
handle this traffic is nonsense.


More in my next post...

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html


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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, George Rogato wrote:

A couple names that came up was Imagestream, who says they can 
control the amount of connections to help control p2p. Jeff will 
step in and correct me if I'm wrong.


You are correct.  Mikrotik can do the same.  ANY Linux based system 
can limit connections, because it's built into iptables.  Frankly, 
this is the method I use to set up QOS (part of it, anyway), because 
it is the ONLY effective way to limit the negative impact of these 
torrents.  Which, by the way, is (IMHO) a VERY accurate name (note 
definitions 2 and 4).


tor??rent
- noun
1. a stream of water flowing with great rapidity and violence.
2. a rushing, violent, or abundant and unceasing stream of 
anything: a torrent of lava.

3. a violent downpour of rain.
4. a violent, tumultuous, or overwhelming flow: a torrent of 
abuse.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
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Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html

** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Travis Johnson




I would have to agree. They did it to save costs, which includes
bandwidth, transport, equipment upgrades, etc. If I run our network
wide open (which I do from 6:00PM to 7:00AM), we see p2p traffic using
25% of our total bandwidth.

Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:

  On Fri, October 19, 2007 2:24 pm, Tom DeReggi wrote:

  
  
Yeah right... It has nothing to do with saving Interconnect dollars.
Comcast's download ratios are already way higher than upload even with
BitTorrent full force, and probably are already getting paid for the
peering relationships if anything because of their ratios.

  
  
Given that I know nothing about the internals of Comcast's network, I
strongly suspect this is not the case. They're not a Tier-1, and they
don't generally offer transit. They're one of the biggest end-user ISPs in
the States, and based on sheer volume they probably have some pretty sweet
arrangements, but I really doubt they do enough hosting on their own that
others are paying them for the privilege of talking to Comcast subs.

  
  
What they are doing here is sending a message that if you Buy Comcast you
get performance, if you buy from our competitors, you won;t ahve
performance
because we control the majority market, and we won't let you play with our
clients in a favorable manner.

  
  
A majority of what market? Even as big as Comcast is, they're nowhere near
50% of America's broadband users, and if that's not the market you're
referring to, I don't know what you do mean.

Folks not using Comcast will have few or no problems with their p2p needs,
as there are plenty of other ISPs in this country alone (and a couple
hundred other countries as well). Meanwhile, folks using Comcast in
markets where they're doing edge-p2p-filtering will get cranky because
their friend on DSL can download (whatever warez-y stuff) 84 times faster,
and may well leave Comcast because of it. When this first came to light a
couple months ago, the nerd rage on Slashdot was positively palpable, and
while it was probably 98% smoke, I doubt very much it was 100% smoke.

Comcast has the right to do whatever they want - their network, their
rules. Really, though, I just don't see WHY they would choose to make this
particular move, if not to save on peering costs.

David Smith
MVN.net



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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread David E. Smith

CHUCK PROFITO wrote:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071019/D8SCASQ80.html


Comcast has been doing this for a few months, actually. By most 
accounts, the traffic is throttled at their network edges - i.e. two 
Comcast customers can trade files all they want, the throttling only 
kicks in when one of them tries to exchange data with a non-Comcast peer.


My network throttles peer-to-peer traffic because that traffic does 
really nasty things to our customer APs (the last-mile hop). Comcast 
isn't doing anything there, according to the reports I've seen.


They're probably trying to save a few bucks on interconnectivity and 
peering agreements, on the assumption that traffic within their 
already-existing network is free.


David Smith
MVN.net


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Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, Tom DeReggi wrote:


Interesting arcticle.


Certainly it was.  It was well written BS!

My belief is that any ISP has the right to control usage of their 
network. But this arcticle was most interesting because it was 
addressing what are the ethical ways to accomplish that. The last


We are in agreement on your first sentence, but the second begins 
the issue I have with what appears to be a stance that I would 
disagree with.


few sentances summarizing of the arcticle homing in on the issue. 
Basically bringing out that Comcast's action are unscrupulous 
because the actions are happening behind the scenes, hiding that


This part I agree with, too.  If they are attempting to hide the 
fact that they are doing it, then that is, in my opinion, a poor 
decision.  These days, you can't get away with that sort of thing.


they are the cause blocking the peer to peer trafic. They are 
misrepresenting their identity on the PCs (identity Fraud). But


This is an inaccurate assumption and application of the term 
identity fraud.  What they are (most likely) doing is sending a 
TCP reset packet, which is the best way to accomplish the task.


most importantly, they are intercepting someone else's data 
communication stream and barging in on the conversation (Invasion 
of Privacy).


Get real.  Invasion of privacy?  You are serious?  This is in NO WAY 
close to invasion of privacy.  They are simply interrupting a 
communication that they do no wish to transport on their network. 
If they were capturing the data, parsing it and looking to see who 
was talking to who and what they are saying, then I'd be more 
inclined to agree.  Is running a proxy server on your network an 
invasion of privacy?  Log files from a squid server get closer to 
permitting a true invasion of privacy that what Comcast is doing.


For example, simply blocking a BitTorrent or slowing iut down would 
be OK, as you aren't joining the conversation, just blocking it. 
But jumping in on the conversation and sending back false 
information across someone else's Bittorrent conversation is 
clearly a violation of privacy.


That is is a violation of privacy is not so clear to me.  In fact, 
I can't even stretch and say that I think it is remotely similar to 
invasion of privacy.  This is simply a non-issue, unless they are 
parsing the data of an individual subscriber, which they MAY be 
doing, but it is another topic that is not related to their handling 
of Bittorrent.


Wait until they decide its a good idea to apply the same principle 
to Email delivery. Scary.


Hmmm...I have done something similar with email as well.  Mail 
destined for my mail server where the rate of new connections 
exceeds a threshold from a single IP will get you in an address list 
of folks that will see nothing but tarpit responses from my 
firewall.  Does this qualify as scary?


I think you are WAY over the top on this one, Tom.  I generally 
appreciate your reasoned responses, but this, IMHO, is a bit too 
much.  I did not intend to be offensive in my responses, and I would 
ask that you accept my apologies offered in advance if they come 
across that way.


These are the things I hate most. Companies blocking, but not being 
man enough to step up to the plate and tell their client base how 
they are blocking it. They are deceiving their clients.  But yet,


If they are deceiving customers, then the market will discover this 
and they will pay.  I am not so certain that they don't disclose 
this to new customers.  For me, we always notified our customers 
that running a server on the network was not allowed, and even 
included a reference to fileshare apps in that paragraph of the AUP. 
Any changes I made to the network usage policy, could (in some 
cases) require an update to the AUP, which was available online and 
was made available to new subs.  I did not, however, inform 
customers when this policy was updated.


consumers are jumping to sign up, not being aware how they may be 
limited once they do.


Most users don't understand the issue at all.  Many of them are 
completely unaware of the harm they are doing to the network, and 
are, generally, understanding once it is explained to them.  Comcast 
is simply turning off the ability for users to UPLOAD via 
bittorrent.  This will affect a small number (percentage) of users, 
and is well within their rights to do.  If they pay a price in 
attrition, then it will prove to be a bad choice, but I, for one, 
think they will gain rather than lose as a result of this choice.



--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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** 

Re: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P

2007-10-19 Thread Tom DeReggi

Interesting arcticle.

My belief is that any ISP has the right to control usage of their network. 
But this arcticle was most interesting because it was addressing what are 
the ethical ways to accomplish that. The last few sentances summarizing of 
the arcticle homing in on the issue.
Basically bringing out that Comcast's action are unscrupulous because the 
actions are happening behind the scenes, hiding that they are the cause 
blocking the peer to peer trafic. They are misrepresenting their identity on 
the PCs (identity Fraud). But most importantly, they are intercepting 
someone else's data communication stream and barging in on the conversation 
(Invasion of Privacy).  For example, simply blocking a BitTorrent or slowing 
iut down would be OK, as you aren't joining the conversation, just blocking 
it. But jumping in on the conversation and sending back false information 
across someone else's Bittorrent conversation is clearly a violation of 
privacy. Wait until they decide its a good idea to apply the same principle 
to Email delivery. Scary.


These are the things I hate most. Companies blocking, but not being man 
enough to step up to the plate and tell their client base how they are 
blocking it. They are deceiving their clients.  But yet, consumers are 
jumping to sign up, not being aware how they may be limited once they do.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: CHUCK PROFITO [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 19, 2007 1:17 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Look how ComCast deals with P2P




http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071019/D8SCASQ80.html

Chuck Profito
209-988-7388
CV-ACCESS, INC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Providing High Speed Broadband
to Rural Central California




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