Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Quite so. Very true. Tom DeReggi wrote: The idea is to put yourself in a spot that you won't feel the squeeze. When enough of your gear is paid for, enough of your cell sites are traded, once you've reached a scale to have rock bottom bandwidth, and spread your business around without all your eggs in one basket/market, it becomes easier. One of your markets can subsidize the other. When you send the message that under pricing you doesn't harm you, and doesn't help them succeed, they have no motive to continue wasting their money in that type of marketing. This is the year to figure out how to make your business less vulnerable, and be more competitive. The sooner one acknowledge that the competition is comming, the sooner one can prepair for it. If you aren't in a position to prepare for it, the only choice is to sell it to someone that is, or milk it for all its worth while it dies. But the idea that a First-in WISP can't compete, is wrong. What you need to do is identify the Anchor tenants and get them as fast as you can, preferably in long term contracts, to subsidize the others. Ironically, the markets that I'm growing fastest right now, are my most competitive markets. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Ultimately, a business is built to maximize it's selling price to it's customer -- the difference between Clearwire and many of the people on this listserv is the definition of product and customer For most people here (e.g., the small business owner of a profitable WISP / Wireless Network Operator), the product being sold is Broadband Internet Access, and the customer is the residential or commercial subscriber... for Clearwire (or more specifically -- McCaw), the product being sold is a WiMAX/4G Network -- and the customer is a large RBOC/Cellco/Investment Bank/etc So, with this understanding of the differences in the definition of product and customer for both types of entities, it's very easy to rationalize both types of behavior. The small business owner main source of cash is its subscriber base Clearwire's main source of cash is Venture Capital / Wall Street -Charles From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of George Rogato Sent: Fri 3/30/2007 2:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? Alan Cain wrote: What speeds and price were you offering that they picked of most of your subs? 40.00 per month, 3 Mbps (actual). And we do offer hand holding, antivirus filtering, spam filtering and usually free truck rolls for problems (we only charge for the most clearly definable not our fault issues, such as computer repairs). We pride ourselves on customer service. Every one of the departing has said so sorry to go - loved your service. Boils down to perfect service and perceived lowest price. Same thing I do here. Customer service is everything. Probably one reason we have not took a bath since both DSL and Cable turned on years ago. We get quite a few conversions from cable and dsl to us, and that always makes me happy. Although we do loose a few to them as well. The majority of the time we loose to a dsl sub, it's price and it's usually misinformed price. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ winmail.dat-- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
They call EVERY number in that area Not just your customers. This simply shows the level of desperation that they have. And if you can keep that pop up, many of them will come back when they figure out that the real bill is far higher than they were told it would be And, when that happens, they will be far more loyal in the days to come. marlon - Original Message - From: Alan Cain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 5:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? George Rogato wrote: Travis Johnson wrote: I agree with almost everything you said... except the triple play revenue... Qwest is doing a triple play system (Qwest DSL, Qwest VoIP and DirecTV) for $99 per month with $0 install. Also, I don't have a problem with 30-50 year ROI for fiber... but ClearWire is wireless... all the equipment will have to swapped out in 5 years. Travis Microserv Qwest is finally doing better. More dsl revenue. But I wonder what the 99.00 doesn't include and how much the total package costs, with extra charges. They never tell the total price, they just quote a unit price. And quoting unit prices is fully effective enough. One of my POPs has gone from 20 customers to 1 customer, as Qwest has aggressively targeted the area with phone calls to each (!) of my customers 4, 5 and 6 times a week, offering 1.7 Mbps service for 37.50/month. The contract is vaguely and worded in very fine print so no one gets that it is an introductory price, with miscellaneous services and taxes extra. Many will probably rue the day, but I can't hold on to that POP with one customer. And how the heck did they get so specific on the customer list? Do they offer a cut to judas goats? I begin to think the big guys are now starting the big squeeze. Oh, expletive deleted. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Marlon K. Schafer wrote: They call EVERY number in that area Not just your customers. This simply shows the level of desperation that they have. I don't see it as desperation. I see it as aggressive marketing. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Charles, Intersting answer/perspective. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 31, 2007 10:23 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? Ultimately, a business is built to maximize it's selling price to it's customer -- the difference between Clearwire and many of the people on this listserv is the definition of product and customer For most people here (e.g., the small business owner of a profitable WISP / Wireless Network Operator), the product being sold is Broadband Internet Access, and the customer is the residential or commercial subscriber... for Clearwire (or more specifically -- McCaw), the product being sold is a WiMAX/4G Network -- and the customer is a large RBOC/Cellco/Investment Bank/etc So, with this understanding of the differences in the definition of product and customer for both types of entities, it's very easy to rationalize both types of behavior. The small business owner main source of cash is its subscriber base Clearwire's main source of cash is Venture Capital / Wall Street -Charles From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of George Rogato Sent: Fri 3/30/2007 2:42 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? Alan Cain wrote: What speeds and price were you offering that they picked of most of your subs? 40.00 per month, 3 Mbps (actual). And we do offer hand holding, antivirus filtering, spam filtering and usually free truck rolls for problems (we only charge for the most clearly definable not our fault issues, such as computer repairs). We pride ourselves on customer service. Every one of the departing has said so sorry to go - loved your service. Boils down to perfect service and perceived lowest price. Same thing I do here. Customer service is everything. Probably one reason we have not took a bath since both DSL and Cable turned on years ago. We get quite a few conversions from cable and dsl to us, and that always makes me happy. Although we do loose a few to them as well. The majority of the time we loose to a dsl sub, it's price and it's usually misinformed price. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Alan, You offer wireless service at $40/mo, don't you? I'm surprised that anyone left you for $2.50 a month. Inertia alone is worth far more to people .. especially when it comes to things like changing internet addresses, and the prospect of having to learn something new. How fast is your service in that area? Have customers experienced any big outages recently? Could you *ask* them to rate your service vs. Qwest's, as they now experience it? Include points like: Speed .. Extra Services .. Price .. Quality of Customer Support .. Stability of Service. I can only imagine that Qwest targeted the whole area, not just your customers. How could they possibly know, short of driving around looking for antennas? Why would they waste the time looking when they could just call everyone in the area? Best, -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
George Rogato wrote: Alan Cain wrote: And quoting unit prices is fully effective enough. One of my POPs has gone from 20 customers to 1 customer, as Qwest has aggressively targeted the area with phone calls to each (!) of my customers 4, 5 and 6 times a week, offering 1.7 Mbps service for 37.50/month. The contract is vaguely and worded in very fine print so no one gets that it is an introductory price, with miscellaneous services and taxes extra. Many will probably rue the day, but I can't hold on to that POP with one customer. And how the heck did they get so specific on the customer list? Do they offer a cut to judas goats? They do the same thing around here. What speeds and price were you offering that they picked of most of your subs? 40.00 per month, 3 Mbps (actual). And we do offer hand holding, antivirus filtering, spam filtering and usually free truck rolls for problems (we only charge for the most clearly definable not our fault issues, such as computer repairs). We pride ourselves on customer service. Every one of the departing has said so sorry to go - loved your service. Boils down to perfect service and perceived lowest price. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
I have a suggestion for you... your pricing is currently at $40/month. That's the same price we had for the previous 4 years and we just changed it... to $39.95 and guess what? It made a huge difference. We changed all of our existing customers, and made all the changes on all of our other accounts as well... it cost us a few hundred per month from existing customers, but we have made that back easily by new signups. There is a HUGE perceived difference from $37.95 to $40 vs $37.95 to $39.95. You should consider such a change... it will make a difference. Travis Microserv Alan Cain wrote: George Rogato wrote: Alan Cain wrote: And quoting unit prices is fully effective enough. One of my POPs has gone from 20 customers to 1 customer, as Qwest has aggressively targeted the area with phone calls to each (!) of my customers 4, 5 and 6 times a week, offering 1.7 Mbps service for 37.50/month. The contract is vaguely and worded in very fine print so no one gets that it is an introductory price, with miscellaneous services and taxes extra. Many will probably rue the day, but I can't hold on to that POP with one customer. And how the heck did they get so specific on the customer list? Do they offer a cut to judas goats? They do the same thing around here. What speeds and price were you offering that they picked of most of your subs? 40.00 per month, 3 Mbps (actual). And we do offer hand holding, antivirus filtering, spam filtering and usually free truck rolls for problems (we only charge for the most clearly definable not our fault issues, such as computer repairs). We pride ourselves on customer service. Every one of the departing has said so sorry to go - loved your service. Boils down to perfect service and perceived lowest price. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Dylan Oliver wrote: Alan, You offer wireless service at $40/mo, don't you? I'm surprised that anyone left you for $2.50 a month. Inertia alone is worth far more to people .. especially when it comes to things like changing internet addresses, and the prospect of having to learn something new. How fast is your service in that area? Have customers experienced any big outages recently? Could you *ask* them to rate your service vs. Qwest's, as they now experience it? Include points like: Speed .. Extra Services .. Price .. Quality of Customer Support .. Stability of Service. I can only imagine that Qwest targeted the whole area, not just your customers. How could they possibly know, short of driving around looking for antennas? Why would they waste the time looking when they could just call everyone in the area? Best, I *AM* probably certifiably paranoid. I have had to work with our favorite Grant County PUD (which is currently being sued for antitrust activities against local ISPs - you should check out www.sliderule.net for some Very Interesting Reading), and having had my face rubbed into how agencies and companies can truly act, I am a bit sensitive. I have JUST found out that they have a retired Qwest telecom engineer guy in the neighborhood who has been urging management to push hard; there is a new vacation home development coming on strong which would have been a big payoff for my investment there. A vacation spot for Microsofties (we are on the shores of a beautiful lake in Eastern Washington). And, I also found out yesterday that there is the issue of the Electrical Engineering/Computer Science student who has a Motorola Frequency Hopper. His senior project this winter (2006) was Non-line-of-sight still image and telemetry communications using certain wireless technologies. He has been turning it on and off (yes, I can see it on my spectrum analyzer). Yesterday was very informative and a little discouraging. He had the gall to tell a non-technical neighbor that he had a frequency hopper at his house. We had a talk, and he said Gee, I'm innocent - you don't suppose my smartbridge could fail that way, do you? Gosh, that would be like a denial of service attack - you do believe me, don't you? I am pondering filing against him; that makes no friends but acts in a preventive fashion. I imagine everyone on this list has a strong opinion on that one. Sometimes you can have ticks, fleas and tapeworms. Sometimes they can suck you dry. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
What exactly is it you're going to file against this student? -- Dylan Oliver Primaverity, LLC -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Loved your service buy left? They didn't really know what they had then. Do you combat these special offers with a mailing comparing the real billing from Qwest with yours? Plus add in the extras plus add in the time for one service call to Qwest per billing period. Alan Cain wrote: 40.00 per month, 3 Mbps (actual). And we do offer hand holding, antivirus filtering, spam filtering and usually free truck rolls for problems (we only charge for the most clearly definable not our fault issues, such as computer repairs). We pride ourselves on customer service. Every one of the departing has said so sorry to go - loved your service. Boils down to perfect service and perceived lowest price. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Dylan Oliver wrote: What exactly is it you're going to file against this student? That is the question, isn't it. I am not a lawyer. Just pissed. I could file him with a nice rasp. (that is a joke) -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Alan Cain wrote: What speeds and price were you offering that they picked of most of your subs? 40.00 per month, 3 Mbps (actual). And we do offer hand holding, antivirus filtering, spam filtering and usually free truck rolls for problems (we only charge for the most clearly definable not our fault issues, such as computer repairs). We pride ourselves on customer service. Every one of the departing has said so sorry to go - loved your service. Boils down to perfect service and perceived lowest price. Same thing I do here. Customer service is everything. Probably one reason we have not took a bath since both DSL and Cable turned on years ago. We get quite a few conversions from cable and dsl to us, and that always makes me happy. Although we do loose a few to them as well. The majority of the time we loose to a dsl sub, it's price and it's usually misinformed price. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
The idea is to put yourself in a spot that you won't feel the squeeze. When enough of your gear is paid for, enough of your cell sites are traded, once you've reached a scale to have rock bottom bandwidth, and spread your business around without all your eggs in one basket/market, it becomes easier. One of your markets can subsidize the other. When you send the message that under pricing you doesn't harm you, and doesn't help them succeed, they have no motive to continue wasting their money in that type of marketing. This is the year to figure out how to make your business less vulnerable, and be more competitive. The sooner one acknowledge that the competition is comming, the sooner one can prepair for it. If you aren't in a position to prepare for it, the only choice is to sell it to someone that is, or milk it for all its worth while it dies. But the idea that a First-in WISP can't compete, is wrong. What you need to do is identify the Anchor tenants and get them as fast as you can, preferably in long term contracts, to subsidize the others. Ironically, the markets that I'm growing fastest right now, are my most competitive markets. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Alan Cain [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? George Rogato wrote: Travis Johnson wrote: I agree with almost everything you said... except the triple play revenue... Qwest is doing a triple play system (Qwest DSL, Qwest VoIP and DirecTV) for $99 per month with $0 install. Also, I don't have a problem with 30-50 year ROI for fiber... but ClearWire is wireless... all the equipment will have to swapped out in 5 years. Travis Microserv Qwest is finally doing better. More dsl revenue. But I wonder what the 99.00 doesn't include and how much the total package costs, with extra charges. They never tell the total price, they just quote a unit price. And quoting unit prices is fully effective enough. One of my POPs has gone from 20 customers to 1 customer, as Qwest has aggressively targeted the area with phone calls to each (!) of my customers 4, 5 and 6 times a week, offering 1.7 Mbps service for 37.50/month. The contract is vaguely and worded in very fine print so no one gets that it is an introductory price, with miscellaneous services and taxes extra. Many will probably rue the day, but I can't hold on to that POP with one customer. And how the heck did they get so specific on the customer list? Do they offer a cut to judas goats? I begin to think the big guys are now starting the big squeeze. Oh, expletive deleted. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
I agree with almost everything you said... except the triple play revenue... Qwest is doing a triple play system (Qwest DSL, Qwest VoIP and DirecTV) for $99 per month with $0 install. Also, I don't have a problem with 30-50 year ROI for fiber... but ClearWire is wireless... all the equipment will have to swapped out in 5 years. Travis Microserv Clint Ricker wrote: Just some general thoughts on large corporations, financing, and business. While Peter's analysis about silos and funding sources is right on, I'm going to skirt that discussion because it isn't a meaningful discussion on a superficial level. How do they make money? (Well, if they do make money--some don't). 1. Long term investments: While, in some respects the thirty year cycle doesn't work for Internet, in other respects it does, especially when you are talking transport. True, the equipment may need to change--but, fiber invested in now will be monetizable for the next 50 years. While I don't think that 10-20 year ROI is practical (or smart) for most smaller companies, many smaller players do hamstring themselves by only looking at models that can be profitable in 3-6 months. Financing may be needed, but it is often worth it. A good example to this is CLECs that took the easy money for several years and never made any long-term investments (I'm sure Peter can supply some details about the networks that were never built, despite billions of dollars that came and went). 2. Long term loans: I'm seperating this out, but it is tied into the long term investments. Sure, fiber layed today may take 5 years to pay for itself. But, if it is paid for out of a 15 year loan, it can be profitable from day one. 3. Better monetization: (More upsells). Take a look at your phone, cable, and cell bills, and think about how much of that is upsold from basic service. Basic cable costs $20; yet most people have packages costs $50 or more. Basic cell phone service is $35-45, but many pay closer to $100+. In other words, they get 2x-3x the revenue for additional services that don't really cost them anything. A good example of this is Verizon's FiOS buildout, which I gather Peter is quite sceptical of. $23 billion dollars by 2010; but only 200,000 customers by the end of 2006. On the surface, this does seem to be a little unprofitable for the next few years, but I'm not so sure... A good triple play customer can net a company an average of $125-$150 per month in revenue. This means, over the course of 10 years, that customer is worth $15,000! Those 200,000 customers, by 2015, will have paid Verizon a total of $3 billion dollars; given the reach of Verizon's buildout; those 200,000 customers are just a drop in the bucket. Given that Verizon can get long term loans on these projects; it can be profitable pretty early on. It may blow up in their face, given competition--but, I actually think they are in good shape considering how versitile fiber is; their network expansion will serve them for decades to come with only hardware upgrades necessary to squeeze more out of the fiber. Anyway, I digress :). I just know the Verizon numbers a little better, so it makes a clearer example. But, given that Clearwire is hoping to squeeze more than $50 ARPU from this ($600 per year) (combined voip/data), will eventually have more or less nationwide service with the ability to truly take on cellular networks in a big way, and so forth, $180 customer acquisiton cost is not a bad deal. Vonage pays more than that per customer acquisiton and only gets $300 ARPU at best--but then, they are also not doing so well financially :) -Clint On 3/29/07, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem with that is eventually all of those income sources (IPO, credit line, investors, etc.) dry up... and then you are left with revenue to try and pay all the others (hardware, long term and monthly debt, etc.). It can work, but I just don't see it in this industry. With $30/month accounts (with little or no add-ons that the cell companies used to have like vmail, long-distance, over-minute usage fees, etc.) there just isn't that much profit. The other difference is most telco's (and even cell companies) operate on a 30 year ROI. That just doesn't work in the internet world. I guess only time will tell. Travis Microserv Peter R. wrote: I've spent much of this year analyzing the financials of Vonage and other companies. I just finished looking at VZ. (http://radinfo.blogspot.com/2007/03/vz-spending-billions.html) The numbers make no sense. But then under GAAP accounting its all about putting your numbers in the proper silo and never changing. Where does the money come from? Some of it is debt. Some of it is hardware financing. Some of it is IPO money. Some of it is a credit line. Some from investors. A little from revenue. George Rogato wrote: I think it's the money raised from the sale of stock. Because if the 180 doesn't leave any
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Travis Johnson wrote: I agree with almost everything you said... except the triple play revenue... Qwest is doing a triple play system (Qwest DSL, Qwest VoIP and DirecTV) for $99 per month with $0 install. Also, I don't have a problem with 30-50 year ROI for fiber... but ClearWire is wireless... all the equipment will have to swapped out in 5 years. Travis Microserv Qwest is finally doing better. More dsl revenue. But I wonder what the 99.00 doesn't include and how much the total package costs, with extra charges. They never tell the total price, they just quote a unit price. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
I agree with almost everything you said... except the triple play revenue... Qwest is doing a triple play system (Qwest DSL, Qwest VoIP and DirecTV) for $99 per month with $0 install. Their introductory price is $99 per month, but they are most likely counting on people bumping up a tier in DSL service and TV packages... Also, I don't have a problem with 30-50 year ROI for fiber... but ClearWire is wireless... all the equipment will have to swapped out in 5 years. True enough, and that makes wireless somewhat an oddball. In this case, there is some analogy to their use of licensed spectrum, which is analogous to an extent to a physical medium. Does anyone know off the top of their head what platform they are using? I know Intel is partnering with them, but I've not followed them very closely. I'm kinda curious what their technology cycle will be -Clint Travis Microserv Clint Ricker wrote: Just some general thoughts on large corporations, financing, and business. While Peter's analysis about silos and funding sources is right on, I'm going to skirt that discussion because it isn't a meaningful discussion on a superficial level. How do they make money? (Well, if they do make money--some don't). 1. Long term investments: While, in some respects the thirty year cycle doesn't work for Internet, in other respects it does, especially when you are talking transport. True, the equipment may need to change--but, fiber invested in now will be monetizable for the next 50 years. While I don't think that 10-20 year ROI is practical (or smart) for most smaller companies, many smaller players do hamstring themselves by only looking at models that can be profitable in 3-6 months. Financing may be needed, but it is often worth it. A good example to this is CLECs that took the easy money for several years and never made any long-term investments (I'm sure Peter can supply some details about the networks that were never built, despite billions of dollars that came and went). 2. Long term loans: I'm seperating this out, but it is tied into the long term investments. Sure, fiber layed today may take 5 years to pay for itself. But, if it is paid for out of a 15 year loan, it can be profitable from day one. 3. Better monetization: (More upsells). Take a look at your phone, cable, and cell bills, and think about how much of that is upsold from basic service. Basic cable costs $20; yet most people have packages costs $50 or more. Basic cell phone service is $35-45, but many pay closer to $100+. In other words, they get 2x-3x the revenue for additional services that don't really cost them anything. A good example of this is Verizon's FiOS buildout, which I gather Peter is quite sceptical of. $23 billion dollars by 2010; but only 200,000 customers by the end of 2006. On the surface, this does seem to be a little unprofitable for the next few years, but I'm not so sure... A good triple play customer can net a company an average of $125-$150 per month in revenue. This means, over the course of 10 years, that customer is worth $15,000! Those 200,000 customers, by 2015, will have paid Verizon a total of $3 billion dollars; given the reach of Verizon's buildout; those 200,000 customers are just a drop in the bucket. Given that Verizon can get long term loans on these projects; it can be profitable pretty early on. It may blow up in their face, given competition--but, I actually think they are in good shape considering how versitile fiber is; their network expansion will serve them for decades to come with only hardware upgrades necessary to squeeze more out of the fiber. Anyway, I digress :). I just know the Verizon numbers a little better, so it makes a clearer example. But, given that Clearwire is hoping to squeeze more than $50 ARPU from this ($600 per year) (combined voip/data), will eventually have more or less nationwide service with the ability to truly take on cellular networks in a big way, and so forth, $180 customer acquisiton cost is not a bad deal. Vonage pays more than that per customer acquisiton and only gets $300 ARPU at best--but then, they are also not doing so well financially :) -Clint On 3/29/07, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem with that is eventually all of those income sources (IPO, credit line, investors, etc.) dry up... and then you are left with revenue to try and pay all the others (hardware, long term and monthly debt, etc.). It can work, but I just don't see it in this industry. With $30/month accounts (with little or no add-ons that the cell companies used to have like vmail, long-distance, over-minute usage fees, etc.) there just isn't that much profit. The other difference is most telco's (and even cell companies) operate on a 30 year ROI. That just doesn't work in the internet world. I guess only time will tell. Travis Microserv Peter R. wrote: I've spent much of this
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
George Rogato wrote: Travis Johnson wrote: I agree with almost everything you said... except the triple play revenue... Qwest is doing a triple play system (Qwest DSL, Qwest VoIP and DirecTV) for $99 per month with $0 install. Also, I don't have a problem with 30-50 year ROI for fiber... but ClearWire is wireless... all the equipment will have to swapped out in 5 years. Travis Microserv Qwest is finally doing better. More dsl revenue. But I wonder what the 99.00 doesn't include and how much the total package costs, with extra charges. They never tell the total price, they just quote a unit price. And quoting unit prices is fully effective enough. One of my POPs has gone from 20 customers to 1 customer, as Qwest has aggressively targeted the area with phone calls to each (!) of my customers 4, 5 and 6 times a week, offering 1.7 Mbps service for 37.50/month. The contract is vaguely and worded in very fine print so no one gets that it is an introductory price, with miscellaneous services and taxes extra. Many will probably rue the day, but I can't hold on to that POP with one customer. And how the heck did they get so specific on the customer list? Do they offer a cut to judas goats? I begin to think the big guys are now starting the big squeeze. Oh, expletive deleted. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Alan Cain wrote: And quoting unit prices is fully effective enough. One of my POPs has gone from 20 customers to 1 customer, as Qwest has aggressively targeted the area with phone calls to each (!) of my customers 4, 5 and 6 times a week, offering 1.7 Mbps service for 37.50/month. The contract is vaguely and worded in very fine print so no one gets that it is an introductory price, with miscellaneous services and taxes extra. Many will probably rue the day, but I can't hold on to that POP with one customer. And how the heck did they get so specific on the customer list? Do they offer a cut to judas goats? They do the same thing around here. What speeds and price were you offering that they picked of most of your subs? -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Smart people sometimes do foolish things. However, he isnt the dumbest guy in the world either. So what is his bet? Why would a guy who cut his teeth in cellular come out so hard against the cell carriers with a new wireless product? chris Quoting Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Just a little bit! I was just talking to a local PC reseller and I asked him what ClearWire gave him when he signed up a new customer. 180 bucks! Per sub! It is normally 80 bucks per sub but when he reaches a certain threshold, he gets 180. So what does the next-net equipment cost? and then bandwidth and then tower leases and then spiffs for your resellers WOW! ryan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Hes basically emulating the Cellular Biz ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? Smart people sometimes do foolish things. However, he isnt the dumbest guy in the world either. So what is his bet? Why would a guy who cut his teeth in cellular come out so hard against the cell carriers with a new wireless product? chris Quoting Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Just a little bit! I was just talking to a local PC reseller and I asked him what ClearWire gave him when he signed up a new customer. 180 bucks! Per sub! It is normally 80 bucks per sub but when he reaches a certain threshold, he gets 180. So what does the next-net equipment cost? and then bandwidth and then tower leases and then spiffs for your resellers WOW! ryan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
The cellular business was different 2-3 years ago... before number portability... Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Hes basically emulating the Cellular Biz ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? Smart people sometimes do foolish things. However, he isnt the dumbest guy in the world either. So what is his bet? Why would a guy who cut his teeth in cellular come out so hard against the cell carriers with a new wireless product? chris Quoting Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Just a little bit! I was just talking to a local PC reseller and I asked him what ClearWire gave him when he signed up a new customer. 180 bucks! Per sub! It is normally 80 bucks per sub but when he reaches a certain threshold, he gets 180. So what does the next-net equipment cost? and then bandwidth and then tower leases and then spiffs for your "resellers" WOW! ryan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Well yeah, he exited the cell biz bout 4 years ago .., and theres no Num portability with internet Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? The cellular business was different 2-3 years ago... before number portability... Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Hes basically emulating the Cellular Biz ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? Smart people sometimes do foolish things. However, he isnt the dumbest guy in the world either. So what is his bet? Why would a guy who cut his teeth in cellular come out so hard against the cell carriers with a new wireless product? chris Quoting Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] : Just a little bit! I was just talking to a local PC reseller and I asked him what ClearWire gave him when he signed up a new customer. 180 bucks! Per sub! It is normally 80 bucks per sub but when he reaches a certain threshold, he gets 180. So what does the next-net equipment cost? and then bandwidth and then tower leases and then spiffs for your resellers WOW! ryan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Yea there is, its call DNS Ryan On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 22:34 -0400, Gino Villarini wrote: Well yeah, he exited the cell biz bout 4 years ago .., and theres no Num portability with internet Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? The cellular business was different 2-3 years ago... before number portability... Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Hes basically emulating the Cellular Biz ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? Smart people sometimes do foolish things. However, he isnt the dumbest guy in the world either. So what is his bet? Why would a guy who cut his teeth in cellular come out so hard against the cell carriers with a new wireless product? chris Quoting Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] : Just a little bit! I was just talking to a local PC reseller and I asked him what ClearWire gave him when he signed up a new customer. 180 bucks! Per sub! It is normally 80 bucks per sub but when he reaches a certain threshold, he gets 180. So what does the next-net equipment cost? and then bandwidth and then tower leases and then spiffs for your resellers WOW! ryan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
That's what I meant... back when he did cellular, people were more locked in to their cell numbers... so even outside of contract, most people didn't want to give up their number... but things are different now with cell stuff... it's much closer to how internet access is now... that's what I was saying... He may have done well in the cell business 4 years ago, but the internet business is much different. People switch providers all the time. To pay someone $180 for a customer signup seems foolish. $30/month x 12 months = $360. and he is giving away half of that right to start with... so that customer just became a $15/month customer... that you also had to provide equipment for ($5/month), bandwidth, support, etc. for $10/month. Maybe he's using the same mind-set that one of my competitors was using a few years ago (they are out of business now)... we'll make it up on quantity. :) Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Well yeah, he exited the cell biz bout 4 years ago .., and theres no Num portability with internet Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? The cellular business was different 2-3 years ago... before number portability... Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Hes basically emulating the Cellular Biz ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? Smart people sometimes do foolish things. However, he isnt the dumbest guy in the world either. So what is his bet? Why would a guy who cut his teeth in cellular come out so hard against the cell carriers with a new wireless product? chris Quoting Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] : Just a little bit! I was just talking to a local PC reseller and I asked him what ClearWire gave him when he signed up a new customer. 180 bucks! Per sub! It is normally 80 bucks per sub but when he reaches a certain threshold, he gets 180. So what does the next-net equipment cost? and then bandwidth and then tower leases and then spiffs for your resellers WOW! ryan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
Or possibly called BGP... Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ryan Langseth Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:41 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? Yea there is, its call DNS Ryan On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 22:34 -0400, Gino Villarini wrote: Well yeah, he exited the cell biz bout 4 years ago .., and theres no Num portability with internet Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? The cellular business was different 2-3 years ago... before number portability... Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Hes basically emulating the Cellular Biz ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? Smart people sometimes do foolish things. However, he isnt the dumbest guy in the world either. So what is his bet? Why would a guy who cut his teeth in cellular come out so hard against the cell carriers with a new wireless product? chris Quoting Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] : Just a little bit! I was just talking to a local PC reseller and I asked him what ClearWire gave him when he signed up a new customer. 180 bucks! Per sub! It is normally 80 bucks per sub but when he reaches a certain threshold, he gets 180. So what does the next-net equipment cost? and then bandwidth and then tower leases and then spiffs for your resellers WOW! ryan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
I think it's the money raised from the sale of stock. Because if the 180 doesn't leave any profit, what about all the radio and tv advertizing they do? Travis Johnson wrote: That's what I meant... back when he did cellular, people were more locked in to their cell numbers... so even outside of contract, most people didn't want to give up their number... but things are different now with cell stuff... it's much closer to how internet access is now... that's what I was saying... He may have done well in the cell business 4 years ago, but the internet business is much different. People switch providers all the time. To pay someone $180 for a customer signup seems foolish. $30/month x 12 months = $360. and he is giving away half of that right to start with... so that customer just became a $15/month customer... that you also had to provide equipment for ($5/month), bandwidth, support, etc. for $10/month. Maybe he's using the same mind-set that one of my competitors was using a few years ago (they are out of business now)... we'll make it up on quantity. :) Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Well yeah, he exited the cell biz bout 4 years ago .., and theres no Num portability with internet Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis Johnson Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 10:00 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? The cellular business was different 2-3 years ago... before number portability... Travis Microserv Gino Villarini wrote: Hes basically emulating the Cellular Biz ... Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 9:31 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money? Smart people sometimes do foolish things. However, he isnt the dumbest guy in the world either. So what is his bet? Why would a guy who cut his teeth in cellular come out so hard against the cell carriers with a new wireless product? chris Quoting Ryan Spott [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] : Just a little bit! I was just talking to a local PC reseller and I asked him what ClearWire gave him when he signed up a new customer. 180 bucks! Per sub! It is normally 80 bucks per sub but when he reaches a certain threshold, he gets 180. So what does the next-net equipment cost? and then bandwidth and then tower leases and then spiffs for your resellers WOW! ryan -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. -- George Rogato Welcome to WISPA www.wispa.org http://signup.wispa.org/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
I've spent much of this year analyzing the financials of Vonage and other companies. I just finished looking at VZ. (http://radinfo.blogspot.com/2007/03/vz-spending-billions.html) The numbers make no sense. But then under GAAP accounting its all about putting your numbers in the proper silo and never changing. Where does the money come from? Some of it is debt. Some of it is hardware financing. Some of it is IPO money. Some of it is a credit line. Some from investors. A little from revenue. George Rogato wrote: I think it's the money raised from the sale of stock. Because if the 180 doesn't leave any profit, what about all the radio and tv advertizing they do? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] McCaw losing money?
The problem with that is eventually all of those income sources (IPO, credit line, investors, etc.) dry up... and then you are left with revenue to try and pay all the others (hardware, long term and monthly debt, etc.). It can work, but I just don't see it in this industry. With $30/month accounts (with little or no add-ons that the cell companies used to have like vmail, long-distance, over-minute usage fees, etc.) there just isn't that much profit. The other difference is most telco's (and even cell companies) operate on a 30 year ROI. That just doesn't work in the internet world. I guess only time will tell. Travis Microserv Peter R. wrote: I've spent much of this year analyzing the financials of Vonage and other companies. I just finished looking at VZ. (http://radinfo.blogspot.com/2007/03/vz-spending-billions.html) The numbers make no sense. But then under GAAP accounting its all about putting your numbers in the proper silo and never changing. Where does the money come from? Some of it is debt. Some of it is hardware financing. Some of it is IPO money. Some of it is a credit line. Some from investors. A little from revenue. George Rogato wrote: I think it's the money raised from the sale of stock. Because if the 180 doesn't leave any profit, what about all the radio and tv advertizing they do? -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
