Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-27 Thread George Rogato
It's a war board with a cm9 card ap at 5 gig and a pc star-os 5004 
atheros card from 2 years ago at this repeater I'm connected to.

This 5gig war ap feeds 22 other ap's.
2gig gives the same results.
And I bet there is a lot more than 200 subs, but I don't feel like 
counting them all.



KyWiFi LLC wrote:

Is that 1 radio card serving 200 subscribers or multiple
radio cards? Which radio card(s)? 802.11g or 802.11a?

BTW, bravo on 200 subs from 1 AP! What would you
say the population is for the coverage area of this AP?


Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder
KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky
Your Hometown Broadband Provider
http://www.KyWiFi.com
Call Us Today: 859.274.4033
===
$29.99 DSL High Speed Internet
$14.99 Home Phone Service
$19.99 All Digital Satellite TV
- No Phone Line Required for DSL
- FREE Activation  Equipment
- Affordable Upfront Pricing
- Locally Owned  Operated
- We Also Service Most Rural Areas
===


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


Oh yeah that AP is serving about 200 or more subs.

George

George Rogato wrote:


Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

As a general rule you should not consider any customer if the cannot
achieve at least a 5.5 mbps connection. 
Hey Lonnie, you should try war boards, speed is killer. here's my speed 
test across a pair of them.

It's about the same for all my customers who are using them.

OregonFast SpeedTest


Your current bandwidth reading is:

15398.5 Kbps

which means you can download at 1924.81 KB/sec. from our servers.

;)

George




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Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-27 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
As I recall, Paul Farber had for more problems than the cable co.  If he 
treated his customers the way he treated people on the lists sometimes. 
grin


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 9:45 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems



I dunno. I kinda disagree with those who think marginal is just fine.
I can tell they do not compete against Qwest DSL or Charter cable.
512k, will get you no where and service that is up down in speeds will not 
get you subs when the real competition shows up to play in your sandbox.


Party is over.

Real world kicks in and fantasy land  turns into a nightmare.
We've heard it on these lists in the past with wisps building a low speed 
network and the cable ops turning on and taking all their subs.

Remember Paul Farber?

Sure there are exceptions in markets that are not mature, but like I said, 
it will be a different story when the competition shows up, which is 
pretty darn soon if you don't have any at this time.


Build your network to it's highest performance and breath a little bit of 
relief. Build it right the first time and get the most out of your 
investment.


George

Carl A Jeptha wrote:
Yes Marlon, real world is different from the theory (yes, Lonnie I know 
you run your own ISP).
I quote We endeavour to deliver 256kbps, but speed may be  up to  4.5 
mbps. No Up Ito's, because you will never see it. Depending on who you 
ask the radios when they have perfect line of sight is actually capable 
of 11mbps. So I say again, we endeavour to deliver 256kbps, and if on the 
day of the install we find for what ever reason that we cannot deliver 
our speed we will remove the equipment and leave, no charge.
Most customers' response is, Okay so when will you be installing. 
My response, we have a two week backlog, we will see if we can fit you 
in.  Customer, Great, I'll see you in two weeks time


You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha



Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
I'm gonna disagree with Lonnie here.  Kinda.  We agree on the -75 dB 
thing.


But on the number of customers I'm wa on the other side of the 
fence. Probably on the other side of the pasture too.


Just in Odessa here we have something like 50 to 75 subs pulling from a 
single ap.  It's an OLD lucent ap1000.  Only an 11 meg radio.  It feeds 
two other repeater sites (those are included in the subscriber count). 
You can run a speed test here at almost any time you want and my 
customers get 2 to 3 megs of actual speed out to the internet.  4x+ the 
actual speed of dsl in town for only $5 per month more.


I will agree that marginal links will slow the whole network down.  But 
I try to look at things from a pragmatic standpoint.  Not just sales or 
techie view point.  The question for me is, are the customers happy? 
Are they wanting/needing more?  Are the expectations properly set and 
met?


My fiber feed here is peaking at 3 megs today.  3.19 to be exact.  But 
the AVERAGE is only 640k.  This circuit feeds 24 pots lines and 150ish 
wireless subs.  NON of whom are on bandwidth shaped links.  It's wide 
open for all of them.  Some of the businesses get 8ish megs via a trango 
system in town too.


All systems and all customer bases are different.  Us experts in the 
industry are often very good at telling you how to run our networks. 
The hard part is that we're all correct :-P.


Here's MY rule of thumb for customers per ap.  When people start telling 
me that things aren't as fast as they used to be, I'll put in another 
one.  OR if *I* know I can do a much better job by splitting things off 
(gonna do that to one system today, only 10ish subs but it's never 
worked as well as it should so I'm gonna redesign things, again).  My 
one complaining customer on that tower complains about everything 
though.  When I go to his house to test the actual speed it's always 
good.  Maybe I'm working too hard for one squeaky wheel.  Too bad he's 
not only a tech support guy but also a relative!  hehehehehehe


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA

Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-27 Thread George Rogato

Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
As I recall, Paul Farber had for more problems than the cable co.  If he 
treated his customers the way he treated people on the lists 
sometimes. grin


True, and I want to point out that after I reread what I wrote, tthat I 
didn't mean to make it sound like a wisp who was only serving low speed 
bandwidth was in some way any less of or inferior of a wisp.


As a businessman, I realize that you should get what you can while you 
can and if a lower speed does the trick, more success to you.


I was mixing in the warning of the coming competition and the quality of 
which our links should be.


Anyways, if I insulted any of yeah, my apologies.

George

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Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
That's fine if you have enough potential customers to saturate your ap's at 
the 11 meg speed.   Out here we'll take anything we can get.  If it slows 
down to 1 meg for a customer that's still much better than his dialup was.


We have VERY few customers that get less than 1 meg of actual speed.  Even 
in high interference zones that have 40ish users per ap.  Got some folks in 
an area that are below the main omni beam that only get 600ish, but that 
same system will deliver 3+ megs further out or up a bit higher.  Go figure.


As cheap as ap's are getting we just keep sectorizing out to smaller and 
smaller customer groups.  That's helping a lot of things.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Chad Halsted [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


The idea is to not do the install unless you can maintain a reliable
11mb connection (usually -75 or better) that passes the 0% loss rule.
So, having done that, you shouldn't drop customers.

Or at least that is what I have been taught, I could be misinformed. :-)



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

We almost never hard set any radios to any speed.  I'd rather have the
system slow down than drop customers.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Chad Halsted [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:36 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems



If you haven't run a test with a spectrum analyzer, there really is no
way to know for sure what is out there.  Harmful noise, as you probably
know, can come from all sorts of devices, not just 802.x APs.

Yes, -90 is bad for several reasons.

1.  That link is probably suffering from high packet loss.  This will
not only cause problems for the customer's link, but will keep your AP
busy resending dropped packets.  One customer isn't going to overload an
AP, but several could.

2.  -90 doesn't leave much room for fade.  Bad weather could, and most
likely will, knock this link out in a heart beat.

3. The rate at which the client and AP talk at a -90 would be 1MB.
Whenever the AP is talking to the client it will have to adjust its
rate to match that of the client's.  When another client, let's say it's
connected at an 11mb rate, wants to talk the AP has to adjust its rate
to 11mb, these constant adjustments can cause latency, dropped packets,
and overload the CPU on the AP.  This is more evident with the more
clients you have.

Always set your AP rate to auto, hard set all clients to 11MB.  Just
make sure you don't do the install unless it will support an 11MB rate.
Lastly, I would suggest that you test each and every link for packet
loss sending large packets, 0% or less and you'll be good to go.

I could be way off; your -90 client may be working perfectly.  I just
thought I would share some info that I had to learn the hard way.

Good Luck!!



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Hensley
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 4:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

Interference really isn't much of an issue here.  There's one other WISP
and
we work pretty closely together to stay out of each other's way.  We've
analyzed the area and nothing else is out there but us and the typical
home
APs.

So -90 is that bad huh?  Guess I may need to rethink those two installs.


- Original Message - 
From: Chad Halsted [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


No personal experience on the X10, but from what I here, it will give
you nightmares.

Seems like I heard Marlon speak such wonderful things about the x10
before, eh Marlon?

-90 signal is never a good thing.  We won't do an install unless it's
-75 or better.  Sometimes even a -75 isn't strong enough to combat all
the interference we have in town.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason

Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread Jason Hensley
So Marlon, using what I perceive to be your ideas below, it's not too bad of 
a deal to put a marginal customer on (maybe not at -90, but maybe -80 or 
even -85, or do you think -85 is not even good enough?) so long as we have a 
clean link and we can make it with next to no packet loss?


In my situation, I'm selling mainly 512kbps connections.  I have a few that 
want a full meg, and one that may be looking at 3meg shortly, but I've got 
mainly resi customers at the moment.  I'm finding though, that I can beat up 
on DSL pricing for businesses here so I'm starting to hit that market a 
little more.  But, I need to be sure my system is stable before I really get 
into this.


I appreciate everyone's feedback on this topic.  I haven't figured out my 
issues completely from my original post, but they have actually cleared up 
somewhat.  I'm starting to actually wonder if I have either a bad AP, or if 
I have water issues as it seems like it was acting up in the middle of the 
afternoon, and then again later at night.  Beyond that, we have good solid 
consistent ping times (5ms or less) to all clients (yes, even the one with 
a -90).  But, again, haven't had any problems in about a week.


Waiting for it to cool down a bit before we put in our backhaul (this POP is 
on top of a water tower).


Which brings another question, how high from the top of a water tower would 
you recommed mounting the antenna?  It's a PacWireless 13db Omni-horizontal. 
It's a cylinder tower.  Right now the antenna is mounted directly onto the 
ladder railing on top.  We're going to raise it up 5' or so when we put in 
the backhaul too.  I'm thinking that may help keep things clean too, as well 
as give me just a bit more range with it (one side is partially blocked by 
the dome on the top middle of the tower).



- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


That's fine if you have enough potential customers to saturate your ap's 
at the 11 meg speed.   Out here we'll take anything we can get.  If it 
slows down to 1 meg for a customer that's still much better than his 
dialup was.


We have VERY few customers that get less than 1 meg of actual speed.  Even 
in high interference zones that have 40ish users per ap.  Got some folks 
in an area that are below the main omni beam that only get 600ish, but 
that same system will deliver 3+ megs further out or up a bit higher.  Go 
figure.


As cheap as ap's are getting we just keep sectorizing out to smaller and 
smaller customer groups.  That's helping a lot of things.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Chad Halsted [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 8:26 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


The idea is to not do the install unless you can maintain a reliable
11mb connection (usually -75 or better) that passes the 0% loss rule.
So, having done that, you shouldn't drop customers.

Or at least that is what I have been taught, I could be misinformed. :-)



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

We almost never hard set any radios to any speed.  I'd rather have the
system slow down than drop customers.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Chad Halsted [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:36 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems



If you haven't run a test with a spectrum analyzer, there really is no
way to know for sure what is out there.  Harmful noise, as you probably
know, can come from all sorts of devices, not just 802.x APs.

Yes, -90 is bad for several reasons.

1.  That link is probably suffering from high packet loss.  This will
not only cause problems for the customer's link, but will keep your AP
busy resending dropped packets.  One customer isn't going to overload an
AP, but several could.

2.  -90 doesn't leave much room for fade.  Bad weather could, and most
likely will, knock this link out in a heart beat.

3. The rate

Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread George Rogato

Jason Hensley wrote:
So Marlon, using what I perceive to be your ideas below, it's not too 
bad of a deal to put a marginal customer on (maybe not at -90, but 
maybe -80 or even -85, or do you think -85 is not even good enough?) so 
long as we have a clean link and we can make it with next to no packet 
loss?


In my situation, I'm selling mainly 512kbps connections.  I have a few 
that want a full meg, and one that may be looking at 3meg shortly, but 
I've got mainly resi customers at the moment.  I'm finding though, that 
I can beat up on DSL pricing for businesses here so I'm starting to hit 
that market a little more.  But, I need to be sure my system is stable 
before I really get into this.


I appreciate everyone's feedback on this topic.  


Jason, one thing you have to remember is your system is only as good as 
your weakest link.


If you put on a sub who is marginally connected he will pull your ap 
down when he is busy downloading etc.


A link that has no traffic running across it regardless of how weak  or 
marginal it is won't have an effect until he starts passing traffic.

Then all hell will break loose.

The best strategy is always install solid links and if you do have to 
hook someone up that will be marginal, make sure it's very temporary and

you have an alternative link for it in the near future.
I have had to hook up subs that were marginal, but when I do It's 
because I'm just trying to land the sub and have a game plan like 
putting in a 900MHz system or maybe a new micro pop repeater to re feed 
him in the near future.


Hope this is helpful

George




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Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread Jason Hensley
I appreciate it.  We're looking hard at the new 900 stuff from Tranzeo. 
Gear finally down in the affordable range for me, but, I hate to be one of 
the first to use it :-)


Thanks for everyone's feedback!!


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems



Jason Hensley wrote:
So Marlon, using what I perceive to be your ideas below, it's not too bad 
of a deal to put a marginal customer on (maybe not at -90, but 
maybe -80 or even -85, or do you think -85 is not even good enough?) so 
long as we have a clean link and we can make it with next to no packet 
loss?


In my situation, I'm selling mainly 512kbps connections.  I have a few 
that want a full meg, and one that may be looking at 3meg shortly, but 
I've got mainly resi customers at the moment.  I'm finding though, that I 
can beat up on DSL pricing for businesses here so I'm starting to hit 
that market a little more.  But, I need to be sure my system is stable 
before I really get into this.


I appreciate everyone's feedback on this topic.


Jason, one thing you have to remember is your system is only as good as 
your weakest link.


If you put on a sub who is marginally connected he will pull your ap down 
when he is busy downloading etc.


A link that has no traffic running across it regardless of how weak  or 
marginal it is won't have an effect until he starts passing traffic.

Then all hell will break loose.

The best strategy is always install solid links and if you do have to hook 
someone up that will be marginal, make sure it's very temporary and

you have an alternative link for it in the near future.
I have had to hook up subs that were marginal, but when I do It's because 
I'm just trying to land the sub and have a game plan like putting in a 
900MHz system or maybe a new micro pop repeater to re feed him in the near 
future.


Hope this is helpful

George




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Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

As a general rule you should not consider any customer if the cannot
achieve at least a 5.5 mbps connection.  Consider the numbers below
and then make your decision.

At 11 mbps link you can transfer between 5.2 mbps and 6 mbps depending
on a number of factors, so let's say 5 mbps for easy math.

At 5.5 mbps link you have about 2.5 mbps actual data transfer capability.

At 2 mbps link you have about 1.5 mbps data transfer capability.

At 1 mbps link you have about 700 kbps data transfer capability.

If you allow each customer to have a 1 mbps pipe you can support 5
users at 11 mbps link, each at full speed or most likely about 30 to
40 normal users with up to 5 real active at any one time.

You can support 2 users at 5.5 mbps link, each at full speed or most
likely about 10 to 20 normal users with up to 2 real active at any one
time.

You can support 1 users at 2 mbps link, at full speed or most likely
about 5 to 10 normal users with up to 1 real active at any one time.

You cannot support even 1 user at 1 mbps link, at full speed that you allow.

Be very aware that 1 user with a 1 mbps link that is allowed to have a
1 mbps pipe will consume EVERY BIT of airtime that you have available.
It is just the same as putting in a private link for them, except
that you have 20 to 40 other customers who just don't understand why
their Internet is so slow.

There are still a lot of guys who do not get this simple concept.
They want to be the hero and hook up everybody and not install better
gear or a tower to get above the trees or whatever.  They just want to
hook the guy up and rationalize that it is better than dialup.  Well
maybe it is, but it is a far cry from what you could do and what the
other users probably expect.  They don't understand why they have
sloppy service when they have a clear shot to your tower and you tell
them they have excellent signal readings.

We insist on each user being able to do at least 10 mbps of actual
data transfer.  Our pipe is currently a smal 4 mbps, so we are able to
have any user consume it all.  This makes sure that I do not get a
single user killing my wireless and thus leaving unused Internet speed
from the 4 mbps.  I want that 4 mbps to be available and actually
getting used.

Our clients are all using Atheros cards and that means we can achieve
the 10 mbps transfer with as little as -84 dB signal.  I strive to get
everybody to at least -75 dB signals and at that point they can can
usually do at least 25 mbps of transfer.  This is important to us
because in 2 weeks I get my 30 mbps FDX fibre feed.  The last thing I
want is to be paying for 30 mbps and using 4 mbps becasue I tried to
provide service when I should have walked away.

Lonnie




On 7/26/06, Jason Hensley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

So Marlon, using what I perceive to be your ideas below, it's not too bad of
a deal to put a marginal customer on (maybe not at -90, but maybe -80 or
even -85, or do you think -85 is not even good enough?) so long as we have a
clean link and we can make it with next to no packet loss?

In my situation, I'm selling mainly 512kbps connections.  I have a few that
want a full meg, and one that may be looking at 3meg shortly, but I've got
mainly resi customers at the moment.  I'm finding though, that I can beat up
on DSL pricing for businesses here so I'm starting to hit that market a
little more.  But, I need to be sure my system is stable before I really get
into this.

I appreciate everyone's feedback on this topic.  I haven't figured out my
issues completely from my original post, but they have actually cleared up
somewhat.  I'm starting to actually wonder if I have either a bad AP, or if
I have water issues as it seems like it was acting up in the middle of the
afternoon, and then again later at night.  Beyond that, we have good solid
consistent ping times (5ms or less) to all clients (yes, even the one with
a -90).  But, again, haven't had any problems in about a week.

Waiting for it to cool down a bit before we put in our backhaul (this POP is
on top of a water tower).

Which brings another question, how high from the top of a water tower would
you recommed mounting the antenna?  It's a PacWireless 13db Omni-horizontal.
It's a cylinder tower.  Right now the antenna is mounted directly onto the
ladder railing on top.  We're going to raise it up 5' or so when we put in
the backhaul too.  I'm thinking that may help keep things clean too, as well
as give me just a bit more range with it (one side is partially blocked by
the dome on the top middle of the tower).


- Original Message -
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


 That's fine if you have enough potential customers to saturate your ap's
 at the 11 meg speed.   Out here we'll take anything we can get.  If it
 slows down to 1 meg for a customer that's still

Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: Jason Hensley [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 11:37 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


So Marlon, using what I perceive to be your ideas below, it's not too bad 
of a deal to put a marginal customer on (maybe not at -90, but maybe -80 
or even -85, or do you think -85 is not even good enough?) so long as we 
have a clean link and we can make it with next to no packet loss?


As long as the customer is happy and it's not creating a noticable impact on 
the rest of your network, I'm fine with anything that brings in a buck 
I'm in business to make money.


Someday when I've got more customers than I need I might change my mind :-).

PLUS!!!..  Work your tail off to find out why those signal levels 
are so low and get them improved.  Certainly anything less than a -80 will 
come back to bite ya.  If there's much noise even -75 might not be enough.


One more note on this.  When I do an install that's questionable I make it 
crystal clear that I'm making NO promises.  AND I tell the customer (this 
bluntly) that I'll leave the link in cause I think it'll work really well 
most of the time.  But I don't want them getting mad any time it doesn't 
work.  If they are ok with some risk I am too but no fair bad mouthing my 
system when we both knew there was some risk.  Usually they'll want to try 
it out for a month and see how it looks, I'll let them do that and will hold 
off on billing for the hardware for that first month just to be sure it'll 
be ok.




In my situation, I'm selling mainly 512kbps connections.  I have a few 
that want a full meg, and one that may be looking at 3meg shortly, but 
I've got mainly resi customers at the moment.  I'm finding though, that I 
can beat up on DSL pricing for businesses here so I'm starting to hit that 
market a little more.  But, I need to be sure my system is stable before I 
really get into this.


It'll never be stable till you've got 20 subs on it.  I don't know why but 
it takes that many to point out the design flaws.  The little things like 
antenna choices and channels etc.  Strangest thing but it happens over and 
over.  Put the customers on, give the first few a lower rate for the first 
year and make sure they know you'll likely have to make some improvements 
over time.  Just can't do the improvements till you have customers.


Also, we're really hitting the backup link idea these days.  Dual wan 
Linksys routers are a couple of hundred bucks.  If internet is mission 
critical you should have more than one connection just like you have 
telephone AND cell phone.  You probably have more than one car.  More than 
one bathroom etc. etc. etc.




I appreciate everyone's feedback on this topic.  I haven't figured out my 
issues completely from my original post, but they have actually cleared up 
somewhat.  I'm starting to actually wonder if I have either a bad AP, or 
if I have water issues as it seems like it was acting up in the middle of 
the afternoon, and then again later at night.  Beyond that, we have good 
solid consistent ping times (5ms or less) to all clients (yes, even the 
one with a -90).  But, again, haven't had any problems in about a week.


Waiting for it to cool down a bit before we put in our backhaul (this POP 
is on top of a water tower).


Which brings another question, how high from the top of a water tower 
would you recommed mounting the antenna?  It's a PacWireless 13db 
Omni-horizontal. It's a cylinder tower.  Right now the antenna is 
mounted directly onto the ladder railing on top.  We're going to raise it 
up 5' or so when we put in the backhaul too.  I'm thinking that may help 
keep things clean too, as well as give me just a bit more range with it 
(one side is partially blocked by the dome on the top middle of the 
tower).


I've attached an xls that I use to calculate antenna coverage.  Your 13 dB 
antenna probably has a vertical beam width of 7ish degrees.  Not much more 
than that.  Much of it will usually be ABOVE the horizon too.  (I've tested 
good omni antenna that supposedly have downtilt and the high gain ones still 
seem to have some uptilt to them.)


I ran the calcs with a 3* vertical pattern (the lower half of the antenna 
coverage should be used in the case of an omni).  I show that at 1000 feet 
from the tower (assuming the water tower is only 100 feet up) you'd need 
your cpe antennas to be at nearly 50 feet to get in the main lobe!


High gain omni antennas suck.  All of them.  The ONLY time I've told people 
to use them is when they are at or below the customer base or at least 
within a couple of tens of feet.


Believe it or not, we can USUALLY pull out the high gain omni, drop down to 
a more appropriate 8 or 9 dB unit and INCREASE signals to most customers. 
If you are going to be up there anyhow I'd just pull that antenna out and 
drop in an 8dB maxrad with 4

Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

I'm gonna disagree with Lonnie here.  Kinda.  We agree on the -75 dB thing.

But on the number of customers I'm wa on the other side of the fence. 
Probably on the other side of the pasture too.


Just in Odessa here we have something like 50 to 75 subs pulling from a 
single ap.  It's an OLD lucent ap1000.  Only an 11 meg radio.  It feeds two 
other repeater sites (those are included in the subscriber count).  You can 
run a speed test here at almost any time you want and my customers get 2 to 
3 megs of actual speed out to the internet.  4x+ the actual speed of dsl in 
town for only $5 per month more.


I will agree that marginal links will slow the whole network down.  But I 
try to look at things from a pragmatic standpoint.  Not just sales or techie 
view point.  The question for me is, are the customers happy?  Are they 
wanting/needing more?  Are the expectations properly set and met?


My fiber feed here is peaking at 3 megs today.  3.19 to be exact.  But the 
AVERAGE is only 640k.  This circuit feeds 24 pots lines and 150ish wireless 
subs.  NON of whom are on bandwidth shaped links.  It's wide open for all of 
them.  Some of the businesses get 8ish megs via a trango system in town too.


All systems and all customer bases are different.  Us experts in the 
industry are often very good at telling you how to run our networks.  The 
hard part is that we're all correct :-P.


Here's MY rule of thumb for customers per ap.  When people start telling me 
that things aren't as fast as they used to be, I'll put in another one.  OR 
if *I* know I can do a much better job by splitting things off (gonna do 
that to one system today, only 10ish subs but it's never worked as well as 
it should so I'm gonna redesign things, again).  My one complaining customer 
on that tower complains about everything though.  When I go to his house to 
test the actual speed it's always good.  Maybe I'm working too hard for one 
squeaky wheel.  Too bad he's not only a tech support guy but also a 
relative!  hehehehehehe


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems



As a general rule you should not consider any customer if the cannot
achieve at least a 5.5 mbps connection.  Consider the numbers below
and then make your decision.

At 11 mbps link you can transfer between 5.2 mbps and 6 mbps depending
on a number of factors, so let's say 5 mbps for easy math.

At 5.5 mbps link you have about 2.5 mbps actual data transfer capability.

At 2 mbps link you have about 1.5 mbps data transfer capability.

At 1 mbps link you have about 700 kbps data transfer capability.

If you allow each customer to have a 1 mbps pipe you can support 5
users at 11 mbps link, each at full speed or most likely about 30 to
40 normal users with up to 5 real active at any one time.

You can support 2 users at 5.5 mbps link, each at full speed or most
likely about 10 to 20 normal users with up to 2 real active at any one
time.

You can support 1 users at 2 mbps link, at full speed or most likely
about 5 to 10 normal users with up to 1 real active at any one time.

You cannot support even 1 user at 1 mbps link, at full speed that you 
allow.


Be very aware that 1 user with a 1 mbps link that is allowed to have a
1 mbps pipe will consume EVERY BIT of airtime that you have available.
It is just the same as putting in a private link for them, except
that you have 20 to 40 other customers who just don't understand why
their Internet is so slow.

There are still a lot of guys who do not get this simple concept.
They want to be the hero and hook up everybody and not install better
gear or a tower to get above the trees or whatever.  They just want to
hook the guy up and rationalize that it is better than dialup.  Well
maybe it is, but it is a far cry from what you could do and what the
other users probably expect.  They don't understand why they have
sloppy service when they have a clear shot to your tower and you tell
them they have excellent signal readings.

We insist on each user being able to do at least 10 mbps of actual
data transfer.  Our pipe is currently a smal 4 mbps, so we are able to
have any user consume it all.  This makes sure that I do not get a
single user killing my wireless and thus leaving unused Internet speed
from the 4 mbps.  I want that 4 mbps to be available and actually
getting used.

Our clients are all using Atheros cards and that means we can achieve
the 10 mbps transfer with as little as -84 dB signal.  I strive to get
everybody to at least -75 dB signals

Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread Carl A Jeptha
Yes Marlon, real world is different from the theory (yes, Lonnie I know 
you run your own ISP).
I quote We endeavour to deliver 256kbps, but speed may be  up to  4.5 
mbps. No Up Ito's, because you will never see it. Depending on who you 
ask the radios when they have perfect line of sight is actually capable 
of 11mbps. So I say again, we endeavour to deliver 256kbps, and if on 
the  day of the install we find for what ever reason that we cannot 
deliver our speed we will remove the equipment and leave, no charge.
Most customers' response is, Okay so when will you be installing. 
My response, we have a two week backlog, we will see if we can fit you 
in.  Customer, Great, I'll see you in two weeks time


You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha



Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
I'm gonna disagree with Lonnie here.  Kinda.  We agree on the -75 dB 
thing.


But on the number of customers I'm wa on the other side of the 
fence. Probably on the other side of the pasture too.


Just in Odessa here we have something like 50 to 75 subs pulling from 
a single ap.  It's an OLD lucent ap1000.  Only an 11 meg radio.  It 
feeds two other repeater sites (those are included in the subscriber 
count).  You can run a speed test here at almost any time you want and 
my customers get 2 to 3 megs of actual speed out to the internet.  4x+ 
the actual speed of dsl in town for only $5 per month more.


I will agree that marginal links will slow the whole network down.  
But I try to look at things from a pragmatic standpoint.  Not just 
sales or techie view point.  The question for me is, are the customers 
happy?  Are they wanting/needing more?  Are the expectations properly 
set and met?


My fiber feed here is peaking at 3 megs today.  3.19 to be exact.  But 
the AVERAGE is only 640k.  This circuit feeds 24 pots lines and 150ish 
wireless subs.  NON of whom are on bandwidth shaped links.  It's wide 
open for all of them.  Some of the businesses get 8ish megs via a 
trango system in town too.


All systems and all customer bases are different.  Us experts in the 
industry are often very good at telling you how to run our networks.  
The hard part is that we're all correct :-P.


Here's MY rule of thumb for customers per ap.  When people start 
telling me that things aren't as fast as they used to be, I'll put in 
another one.  OR if *I* know I can do a much better job by splitting 
things off (gonna do that to one system today, only 10ish subs but 
it's never worked as well as it should so I'm gonna redesign things, 
again).  My one complaining customer on that tower complains about 
everything though.  When I go to his house to test the actual speed 
it's always good.  Maybe I'm working too hard for one squeaky wheel.  
Too bad he's not only a tech support guy but also a relative!  
hehehehehehe


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems



As a general rule you should not consider any customer if the cannot
achieve at least a 5.5 mbps connection.  Consider the numbers below
and then make your decision.

At 11 mbps link you can transfer between 5.2 mbps and 6 mbps depending
on a number of factors, so let's say 5 mbps for easy math.

At 5.5 mbps link you have about 2.5 mbps actual data transfer 
capability.


At 2 mbps link you have about 1.5 mbps data transfer capability.

At 1 mbps link you have about 700 kbps data transfer capability.

If you allow each customer to have a 1 mbps pipe you can support 5
users at 11 mbps link, each at full speed or most likely about 30 to
40 normal users with up to 5 real active at any one time.

You can support 2 users at 5.5 mbps link, each at full speed or most
likely about 10 to 20 normal users with up to 2 real active at any one
time.

You can support 1 users at 2 mbps link, at full speed or most likely
about 5 to 10 normal users with up to 1 real active at any one time.

You cannot support even 1 user at 1 mbps link, at full speed that you 
allow.


Be very aware that 1 user with a 1 mbps link that is allowed to have a
1 mbps pipe will consume EVERY BIT of airtime that you have available.
It is just the same as putting in a private link for them, except
that you have 20 to 40 other customers who just don't understand why
their Internet is so slow.

There are still a lot of guys who do not get this simple concept.
They want to be the hero and hook up everybody and not install better
gear or a tower to get above

Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread George Rogato

I dunno. I kinda disagree with those who think marginal is just fine.
I can tell they do not compete against Qwest DSL or Charter cable.
512k, will get you no where and service that is up down in speeds will 
not get you subs when the real competition shows up to play in your sandbox.


Party is over.

Real world kicks in and fantasy land  turns into a nightmare.
We've heard it on these lists in the past with wisps building a low 
speed network and the cable ops turning on and taking all their subs.

Remember Paul Farber?

Sure there are exceptions in markets that are not mature, but like I 
said, it will be a different story when the competition shows up, which 
is pretty darn soon if you don't have any at this time.


Build your network to it's highest performance and breath a little bit 
of relief. Build it right the first time and get the most out of your 
investment.


George

Carl A Jeptha wrote:
Yes Marlon, real world is different from the theory (yes, Lonnie I know 
you run your own ISP).
I quote We endeavour to deliver 256kbps, but speed may be  up to  4.5 
mbps. No Up Ito's, because you will never see it. Depending on who you 
ask the radios when they have perfect line of sight is actually capable 
of 11mbps. So I say again, we endeavour to deliver 256kbps, and if on 
the  day of the install we find for what ever reason that we cannot 
deliver our speed we will remove the equipment and leave, no charge.
Most customers' response is, Okay so when will you be installing. 
My response, we have a two week backlog, we will see if we can fit you 
in.  Customer, Great, I'll see you in two weeks time


You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha



Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 wrote:
I'm gonna disagree with Lonnie here.  Kinda.  We agree on the -75 dB 
thing.


But on the number of customers I'm wa on the other side of the 
fence. Probably on the other side of the pasture too.


Just in Odessa here we have something like 50 to 75 subs pulling from 
a single ap.  It's an OLD lucent ap1000.  Only an 11 meg radio.  It 
feeds two other repeater sites (those are included in the subscriber 
count).  You can run a speed test here at almost any time you want and 
my customers get 2 to 3 megs of actual speed out to the internet.  4x+ 
the actual speed of dsl in town for only $5 per month more.


I will agree that marginal links will slow the whole network down.  
But I try to look at things from a pragmatic standpoint.  Not just 
sales or techie view point.  The question for me is, are the customers 
happy?  Are they wanting/needing more?  Are the expectations properly 
set and met?


My fiber feed here is peaking at 3 megs today.  3.19 to be exact.  But 
the AVERAGE is only 640k.  This circuit feeds 24 pots lines and 150ish 
wireless subs.  NON of whom are on bandwidth shaped links.  It's wide 
open for all of them.  Some of the businesses get 8ish megs via a 
trango system in town too.


All systems and all customer bases are different.  Us experts in the 
industry are often very good at telling you how to run our networks.  
The hard part is that we're all correct :-P.


Here's MY rule of thumb for customers per ap.  When people start 
telling me that things aren't as fast as they used to be, I'll put in 
another one.  OR if *I* know I can do a much better job by splitting 
things off (gonna do that to one system today, only 10ish subs but 
it's never worked as well as it should so I'm gonna redesign things, 
again).  My one complaining customer on that tower complains about 
everything though.  When I go to his house to test the actual speed 
it's always good.  Maybe I'm working too hard for one squeaky wheel.  
Too bad he's not only a tech support guy but also a relative!  
hehehehehehe


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems



As a general rule you should not consider any customer if the cannot
achieve at least a 5.5 mbps connection.  Consider the numbers below
and then make your decision.

At 11 mbps link you can transfer between 5.2 mbps and 6 mbps depending
on a number of factors, so let's say 5 mbps for easy math.

At 5.5 mbps link you have about 2.5 mbps actual data transfer 
capability.


At 2 mbps link you have about 1.5 mbps data transfer capability.

At 1 mbps link you have about 700 kbps data transfer capability.

If you allow each customer to have a 1 mbps pipe you can support 5
users at 11 mbps link, each at full speed or most

Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread George Rogato



Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

As a general rule you should not consider any customer if the cannot
achieve at least a 5.5 mbps connection. 


Hey Lonnie, you should try war boards, speed is killer. here's my speed 
test across a pair of them.

It's about the same for all my customers who are using them.

OregonFast SpeedTest


Your current bandwidth reading is:

15398.5 Kbps

which means you can download at 1924.81 KB/sec. from our servers.

;)

George
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Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread George Rogato

Oh yeah that AP is serving about 200 or more subs.

George

George Rogato wrote:



Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

As a general rule you should not consider any customer if the cannot
achieve at least a 5.5 mbps connection. 


Hey Lonnie, you should try war boards, speed is killer. here's my speed 
test across a pair of them.

It's about the same for all my customers who are using them.

OregonFast SpeedTest


Your current bandwidth reading is:

15398.5 Kbps

which means you can download at 1924.81 KB/sec. from our servers.

;)

George


--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-26 Thread KyWiFi LLC
Is that 1 radio card serving 200 subscribers or multiple
radio cards? Which radio card(s)? 802.11g or 802.11a?

BTW, bravo on 200 subs from 1 AP! What would you
say the population is for the coverage area of this AP?


Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder
KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky
Your Hometown Broadband Provider
http://www.KyWiFi.com
Call Us Today: 859.274.4033
===
$29.99 DSL High Speed Internet
$14.99 Home Phone Service
$19.99 All Digital Satellite TV
- No Phone Line Required for DSL
- FREE Activation  Equipment
- Affordable Upfront Pricing
- Locally Owned  Operated
- We Also Service Most Rural Areas
===


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 12:56 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


Oh yeah that AP is serving about 200 or more subs.

George

George Rogato wrote:
 
 
 Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:
 As a general rule you should not consider any customer if the cannot
 achieve at least a 5.5 mbps connection. 
 
 Hey Lonnie, you should try war boards, speed is killer. here's my speed 
 test across a pair of them.
 It's about the same for all my customers who are using them.
 
 OregonFast SpeedTest
 
 
 Your current bandwidth reading is:
 
 15398.5 Kbps
 
 which means you can download at 1924.81 KB/sec. from our servers.
 
 ;)
 
 George

-- 
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/
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Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

answers inline

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Jason Hensley [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 11:35 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems



I've got a two AP WDS setup with Tranzeo TR-6000's with PacWireless 13db
omni's on each.  They are less than a mile apart.  Any idea how many CPE's
can run on each AP before it starts causing issues?  We're going to be
replacing the WDS setup with an actual backhaul soon, but just haven't
gotten it done yet.


I tried using a single ap as a repeater for my first site.  Heck, 11 megs 
and I only had 1.5 coming to town, what's to loose


Didn't work out that way.  The stability was horrible  Believe it or 
not, 10 customers was more than it would support.


Admittedly this was before WDS so I don't know how much/if that will help. 
But since that day I've NEVER built a single radio repeater site.  It's also 
why I don't believe that mesh will ever work well when there's only one 
radio at the node.


This gear just doesn't like to send and rec. on the same port.  It wants 
data coming in on one and out the other.


For 10 subs I'd not worry about a real backhaul.  We've done really well 
when using a client radio at the repeater site talking to the ap upstream. 
Then put in a swx and another ap, change channels AND essid and off you go 
again.  Supposedly you'll see a 10 to 15% throughput drop from doing that 
but we generally seem to see more like 30 to 50%.  I don't worry about the 
speeds till we drop below 1 meg though.


For more active sites I'll either put in a ptp link or, these days I'll run 
a high end 5 gig ptmp system and feed business customers and the wifi towers 
with that gear.  It's a model that's working really well for me.




I'm having trouble with performance.  Works fine for awhile and then it
seems to bog down, and then back to normal again.  I've got about 10 
clients

(all  Tranzeo gear) on each of the AP's.  I wouldn't think that this would
cause issues but I may be wrong.  Signal between the WDS connections is
around the -65 mark so that's no problem.  I've got a couple of marginal
clients (running -90 or so) so I'm wondering if these could possibly be
causing it. Everything is horizontal pol.


All gear is a bit different.  But for wifi gear a -90 is WAYY too low. 
For the newer gear I'll go as low as -80 but that's about as good as it 
gets.  Anything over -65 is too high, you'll be much more likely to pick up 
multipath at the ACK level (all the really fun stuff happens at 1 meg so is 
often at the -95+ level).


I like my most sensitive radio level to be less than 30 dB below my signal 
level because most multipath that's a skip off of roads, cars, roofs etc. is 
around 30 dB or less I'm told.


Build a ballanced network.  Not too hot or too cold.  For today's wifi gear 
that means a proper signal level is from -75 to -65.  Yeah, sometimes you 
have to go outside of those, but the cases are very limited and certainly a 
last ditch kind of thing.




When the service completely drops out I can get to the AP's just fine from 
the client end, but can't get to the router (RB532).  I've switched out 
cabling, switches, etc with no luck.  Have a new 532 on the way so I'm 
going to switch it out as well and see what happens, but anyone have any 
other thoughts?


So, what feeds the first ap?  As I understand it you can't get to the noc 
right?  How far from the noc can you get?


Might want to call me and we can walk through some of this quite a bit 
faster via the phone.  Outages aren't well handled via email much of the 
time :-).


Also, you said you've surveyed the area.  Is that with a real spectrum 
analyzer or just netstumbler or some such tool?  Nothing short of an 
analyzer will give you the data you really should have.  Though there are 
some ways to interpret the signal quality data on today's wifi radios to get 
a bit of an idea.




Also, anyone have experience with an X10 camera shutting down their 
network?


Hasn't shut us down but sure could.  They are always on, use almost the 
whole band and are very powerful transmitters.  I do have an ap on a 
building that's got a wireless security system in it.  I'm gonna buy the guy 
a wired system as soon as I can cause his wireless stuff causes some 
stability issues for me.


cell phone number:  509.988.0260



Thanks!


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Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
We almost never hard set any radios to any speed.  I'd rather have the 
system slow down than drop customers.


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Chad Halsted [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:36 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems



If you haven't run a test with a spectrum analyzer, there really is no
way to know for sure what is out there.  Harmful noise, as you probably
know, can come from all sorts of devices, not just 802.x APs.

Yes, -90 is bad for several reasons.

1.  That link is probably suffering from high packet loss.  This will
not only cause problems for the customer's link, but will keep your AP
busy resending dropped packets.  One customer isn't going to overload an
AP, but several could.

2.  -90 doesn't leave much room for fade.  Bad weather could, and most
likely will, knock this link out in a heart beat.

3. The rate at which the client and AP talk at a -90 would be 1MB.
Whenever the AP is talking to the client it will have to adjust its
rate to match that of the client's.  When another client, let's say it's
connected at an 11mb rate, wants to talk the AP has to adjust its rate
to 11mb, these constant adjustments can cause latency, dropped packets,
and overload the CPU on the AP.  This is more evident with the more
clients you have.

Always set your AP rate to auto, hard set all clients to 11MB.  Just
make sure you don't do the install unless it will support an 11MB rate.
Lastly, I would suggest that you test each and every link for packet
loss sending large packets, 0% or less and you'll be good to go.

I could be way off; your -90 client may be working perfectly.  I just
thought I would share some info that I had to learn the hard way.

Good Luck!!



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Hensley
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 4:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

Interference really isn't much of an issue here.  There's one other WISP
and
we work pretty closely together to stay out of each other's way.  We've
analyzed the area and nothing else is out there but us and the typical
home
APs.

So -90 is that bad huh?  Guess I may need to rethink those two installs.


- Original Message - 
From: Chad Halsted [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


No personal experience on the X10, but from what I here, it will give
you nightmares.

Seems like I heard Marlon speak such wonderful things about the x10
before, eh Marlon?

-90 signal is never a good thing.  We won't do an install unless it's
-75 or better.  Sometimes even a -75 isn't strong enough to combat all
the interference we have in town.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Hensley
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

I've got a two AP WDS setup with Tranzeo TR-6000's with PacWireless 13db
omni's on each.  They are less than a mile apart.  Any idea how many
CPE's
can run on each AP before it starts causing issues?  We're going to be
replacing the WDS setup with an actual backhaul soon, but just haven't
gotten it done yet.

I'm having trouble with performance.  Works fine for awhile and then it
seems to bog down, and then back to normal again.  I've got about 10
clients
(all  Tranzeo gear) on each of the AP's.  I wouldn't think that this
would
cause issues but I may be wrong.  Signal between the WDS connections is
around the -65 mark so that's no problem.  I've got a couple of
marginal
clients (running -90 or so) so I'm wondering if these could possibly be
causing it. Everything is horizontal pol.

When the service completely drops out I can get to the AP's just fine
from
the client end, but can't get to the router (RB532).  I've switched out
cabling, switches, etc with no luck.  Have a new 532 on the way so I'm
going
to switch it out as well and see what happens, but anyone have any other

thoughts?

Also, anyone have experience with an X10 camera shutting down their
network?

Thanks!


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Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-25 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
-55 if too high.  With your trees instead of buildings you might be ok most 
of the time.


Remember, all of the handshakes, ack etc. happen at the 1 meg speed. 
Sensitivity there is usually around -95.  Multipath is usually 30 or more 
below your main signal.


So, worst case you want a -65 signal with -95 noise (in this case the noise 
is mulitpath).  You can cheat that some but at your own risk.


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: KyWiFi LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems



-90 is not just bad, it's horrible. ;-)

It has been my experience that a signal of -75 or better
*should* allow for a reliable 11Mbps connection rate. I have
seen times when the subscriber had a -65 to -60 and they
would only associate at a rate of 1Mbps but after changing
channels, their association rate was able to negotiate at the
optimal rate of 11Mbps. We also have a subscriber with a
-89 and they have been able to sustain a constant 11Mbps
rate which blows my mind. They are one of our happiest
subscribers and since we have not noticed a degradation in
service/speed from the AP to which they are associated, we
have left them connected. I will be testing a 400mw 2.4GHz
CPE at their location in the near future. Right now, they have
a 18dBi CPE with a 24dBi grid and they are connected to
a 13.5dBi H-POL sector and 18dBi radio which is 7 miles
away. They use to have a -75 I think it was but the trees
around the halfway mark between the sector and them have
since then grown into their link's fresnel zone.

We service rural Central and Eastern Kentucky and I would
say our noise floor is around -95 to -90 in most areas. We
always use the largest antenna approved by the subscriber.
If we can get a -75 link with a 13dBi panel, we normally go
with a 19dBi panel so we can get the signal into -60's. Just
try to keep your signal level in the -75 to -55 range and you
*should* do well with 2.4GHz. I can't wait until the day when
we can deploy 5GHz CPE for the same price as our 2.4GHz
CPE. But, as time goes on, I'm sure 5GHz spectrum will
someday be used the same (if not more) than 2.4GHz and we
will all be looking for the next best piece of spectrum to utilize
for our PtMP links.


Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder
KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky
Your Hometown Broadband Provider
http://www.KyWiFi.com
Call Us Today: 859.274.4033
===
$29.99 DSL High Speed Internet
$14.99 Home Phone Service
$19.99 All Digital Satellite TV
- No Phone Line Required for DSL
- FREE Activation  Equipment
- Affordable Upfront Pricing
- Locally Owned  Operated
- We Also Service Most Rural Areas
===


- Original Message - 
From: Jason Hensley [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


Interference really isn't much of an issue here.  There's one other WISP 
and

we work pretty closely together to stay out of each other's way.  We've
analyzed the area and nothing else is out there but us and the typical 
home

APs.

So -90 is that bad huh?  Guess I may need to rethink those two installs.


- Original Message - 
From: Chad Halsted [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


No personal experience on the X10, but from what I here, it will give
you nightmares.

Seems like I heard Marlon speak such wonderful things about the x10
before, eh Marlon?

-90 signal is never a good thing.  We won't do an install unless it's
-75 or better.  Sometimes even a -75 isn't strong enough to combat all
the interference we have in town.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Hensley
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

I've got a two AP WDS setup with Tranzeo TR-6000's with PacWireless 13db
omni's on each.  They are less than a mile apart.  Any idea how many
CPE's
can run on each AP before it starts causing issues?  We're going to be
replacing the WDS setup with an actual backhaul soon, but just haven't
gotten it done yet.

I'm having trouble with performance.  Works fine for awhile and then it
seems to bog down, and then back to normal again.  I've got about 10
clients
(all  Tranzeo gear) on each of the AP's.  I wouldn't think that this
would
cause issues but I may be wrong.  Signal between the WDS connections

RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-25 Thread Chad Halsted
The idea is to not do the install unless you can maintain a reliable
11mb connection (usually -75 or better) that passes the 0% loss rule.
So, having done that, you shouldn't drop customers.

Or at least that is what I have been taught, I could be misinformed. :-)



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Tuesday, July 25, 2006 12:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

We almost never hard set any radios to any speed.  I'd rather have the 
system slow down than drop customers.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Chad Halsted [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 9:36 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems



If you haven't run a test with a spectrum analyzer, there really is no
way to know for sure what is out there.  Harmful noise, as you probably
know, can come from all sorts of devices, not just 802.x APs.

Yes, -90 is bad for several reasons.

1.  That link is probably suffering from high packet loss.  This will
not only cause problems for the customer's link, but will keep your AP
busy resending dropped packets.  One customer isn't going to overload an
AP, but several could.

2.  -90 doesn't leave much room for fade.  Bad weather could, and most
likely will, knock this link out in a heart beat.

3. The rate at which the client and AP talk at a -90 would be 1MB.
Whenever the AP is talking to the client it will have to adjust its
rate to match that of the client's.  When another client, let's say it's
connected at an 11mb rate, wants to talk the AP has to adjust its rate
to 11mb, these constant adjustments can cause latency, dropped packets,
and overload the CPU on the AP.  This is more evident with the more
clients you have.

Always set your AP rate to auto, hard set all clients to 11MB.  Just
make sure you don't do the install unless it will support an 11MB rate.
Lastly, I would suggest that you test each and every link for packet
loss sending large packets, 0% or less and you'll be good to go.

I could be way off; your -90 client may be working perfectly.  I just
thought I would share some info that I had to learn the hard way.

Good Luck!!



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Hensley
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 4:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

Interference really isn't much of an issue here.  There's one other WISP
and
we work pretty closely together to stay out of each other's way.  We've
analyzed the area and nothing else is out there but us and the typical
home
APs.

So -90 is that bad huh?  Guess I may need to rethink those two installs.


- Original Message - 
From: Chad Halsted [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


No personal experience on the X10, but from what I here, it will give
you nightmares.

Seems like I heard Marlon speak such wonderful things about the x10
before, eh Marlon?

-90 signal is never a good thing.  We won't do an install unless it's
-75 or better.  Sometimes even a -75 isn't strong enough to combat all
the interference we have in town.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Hensley
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

I've got a two AP WDS setup with Tranzeo TR-6000's with PacWireless 13db
omni's on each.  They are less than a mile apart.  Any idea how many
CPE's
 can run on each AP before it starts causing issues?  We're going to be
 replacing the WDS setup with an actual backhaul soon, but just haven't
 gotten it done yet.

 I'm having trouble with performance.  Works fine for awhile and then it
 seems to bog down, and then back to normal again.  I've got about 10
clients
 (all  Tranzeo gear) on each of the AP's.  I wouldn't think that this
would
 cause issues but I may be wrong.  Signal between the WDS connections is
 around the -65 mark so that's no problem.  I've got a couple of
marginal
 clients (running -90 or so) so I'm wondering if these could possibly be
 causing it. Everything is horizontal pol.

When the service completely drops out I can get to the AP's just fine
from
the client end, but can't get to the router (RB532).  I've switched out
cabling, switches, etc with no luck.  Have a new 532 on the way so I'm
going
to switch it out as well

RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-19 Thread Chad Halsted
No personal experience on the X10, but from what I here, it will give
you nightmares.

Seems like I heard Marlon speak such wonderful things about the x10
before, eh Marlon?

-90 signal is never a good thing.  We won't do an install unless it's
-75 or better.  Sometimes even a -75 isn't strong enough to combat all
the interference we have in town.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Hensley
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

I've got a two AP WDS setup with Tranzeo TR-6000's with PacWireless 13db
omni's on each.  They are less than a mile apart.  Any idea how many
CPE's
 can run on each AP before it starts causing issues?  We're going to be
 replacing the WDS setup with an actual backhaul soon, but just haven't
 gotten it done yet.

 I'm having trouble with performance.  Works fine for awhile and then it
 seems to bog down, and then back to normal again.  I've got about 10 
clients
 (all  Tranzeo gear) on each of the AP's.  I wouldn't think that this
would
 cause issues but I may be wrong.  Signal between the WDS connections is
 around the -65 mark so that's no problem.  I've got a couple of
marginal
 clients (running -90 or so) so I'm wondering if these could possibly be
 causing it. Everything is horizontal pol.

When the service completely drops out I can get to the AP's just fine
from 
the client end, but can't get to the router (RB532).  I've switched out 
cabling, switches, etc with no luck.  Have a new 532 on the way so I'm
going 
to switch it out as well and see what happens, but anyone have any other

thoughts?

 Also, anyone have experience with an X10 camera shutting down their 
network?

 Thanks!


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Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

2006-07-19 Thread KyWiFi LLC
-90 is not just bad, it's horrible. ;-)

It has been my experience that a signal of -75 or better
*should* allow for a reliable 11Mbps connection rate. I have
seen times when the subscriber had a -65 to -60 and they
would only associate at a rate of 1Mbps but after changing
channels, their association rate was able to negotiate at the
optimal rate of 11Mbps. We also have a subscriber with a
-89 and they have been able to sustain a constant 11Mbps
rate which blows my mind. They are one of our happiest
subscribers and since we have not noticed a degradation in
service/speed from the AP to which they are associated, we
have left them connected. I will be testing a 400mw 2.4GHz
CPE at their location in the near future. Right now, they have
a 18dBi CPE with a 24dBi grid and they are connected to
a 13.5dBi H-POL sector and 18dBi radio which is 7 miles
away. They use to have a -75 I think it was but the trees
around the halfway mark between the sector and them have
since then grown into their link's fresnel zone.

We service rural Central and Eastern Kentucky and I would
say our noise floor is around -95 to -90 in most areas. We
always use the largest antenna approved by the subscriber.
If we can get a -75 link with a 13dBi panel, we normally go
with a 19dBi panel so we can get the signal into -60's. Just
try to keep your signal level in the -75 to -55 range and you
*should* do well with 2.4GHz. I can't wait until the day when
we can deploy 5GHz CPE for the same price as our 2.4GHz
CPE. But, as time goes on, I'm sure 5GHz spectrum will
someday be used the same (if not more) than 2.4GHz and we
will all be looking for the next best piece of spectrum to utilize
for our PtMP links.


Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder
KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky
Your Hometown Broadband Provider
http://www.KyWiFi.com
Call Us Today: 859.274.4033
===
$29.99 DSL High Speed Internet
$14.99 Home Phone Service
$19.99 All Digital Satellite TV
- No Phone Line Required for DSL
- FREE Activation  Equipment
- Affordable Upfront Pricing
- Locally Owned  Operated
- We Also Service Most Rural Areas
===


- Original Message - 
From: Jason Hensley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 5:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


Interference really isn't much of an issue here.  There's one other WISP and 
we work pretty closely together to stay out of each other's way.  We've 
analyzed the area and nothing else is out there but us and the typical home 
APs.

So -90 is that bad huh?  Guess I may need to rethink those two installs.


- Original Message - 
From: Chad Halsted [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems


No personal experience on the X10, but from what I here, it will give
you nightmares.

Seems like I heard Marlon speak such wonderful things about the x10
before, eh Marlon?

-90 signal is never a good thing.  We won't do an install unless it's
-75 or better.  Sometimes even a -75 isn't strong enough to combat all
the interference we have in town.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jason Hensley
Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Tranzeo WDS capacity, Mikrotik - problems

I've got a two AP WDS setup with Tranzeo TR-6000's with PacWireless 13db
omni's on each.  They are less than a mile apart.  Any idea how many
CPE's
 can run on each AP before it starts causing issues?  We're going to be
 replacing the WDS setup with an actual backhaul soon, but just haven't
 gotten it done yet.

 I'm having trouble with performance.  Works fine for awhile and then it
 seems to bog down, and then back to normal again.  I've got about 10
clients
 (all  Tranzeo gear) on each of the AP's.  I wouldn't think that this
would
 cause issues but I may be wrong.  Signal between the WDS connections is
 around the -65 mark so that's no problem.  I've got a couple of
marginal
 clients (running -90 or so) so I'm wondering if these could possibly be
 causing it. Everything is horizontal pol.

When the service completely drops out I can get to the AP's just fine
from
the client end, but can't get to the router (RB532).  I've switched out
cabling, switches, etc with no luck.  Have a new 532 on the way so I'm
going
to switch it out as well and see what happens, but anyone have any other

thoughts?

 Also, anyone have experience with an X10 camera shutting down their
network?

 Thanks!


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