Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

I could see it ptp George.  But not omni to cpe...

Unless a guy is using 200mw or higher radio cards.  In which case, you did 
use an amp, it's just built into the radio eh?


MY problem with high power radios is that they don't add any rec. gain like 
an external amp will.


We're switching out our amps to three sector solutions when the customer 
volumes go high enough.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 8:22 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


I'm not so sure about that Marlon. I put in a 10 mile link the other day 
just using a pair of cm9's and rootennas.


xxx   x6:0e x5.688  -74 -66 48  54   C

Of course this was A.

I try to keep the long shots 5 gig and the short ones 2 gig.
The way I figure it, there's a lot of 2 gig out there in all shapes and 
flavors and when you go 10 - 15 miles it's inevidable that there will be 
some interference.


If we are talking the middle of nowhere, you can easily do 15 miles with 
cm9 G, no amps.


Mark has issues with G because he is using mostly V2 G, I believe.

V2 G is a diferent animal, a diferent driver than V3. V3 is the best to 
date.





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an 
amp

marlon

- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



Amps?

The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO

Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card.


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
marlon

- Original Message - From: George Rogato 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than 
lots of B ap's.


Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be 
issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.


The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with 
omni's and sectors all over the place.




Mac Dearman wrote:

 How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to 
implement G,
but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many 
clients
running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there 
would be

trouble in Paradise here!!

 Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
antennas on one tower?)

Mac



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
On

Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B 
link.

 G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
today are G.
60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection 
and

even low 80's beat B.

B stands for Bad
G stands for Good





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the 
antennas

that you need to make it work right.

Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the 
calcs,

and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas




I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications 
(long
range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it 
be

good for?
Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, 
but

PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-05 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
It's not quite so easy to forklift out entire customer bases when there are 
hundreds of cpe out there.


50 of them?  Paying top dollar?  No problem.

A hobby wisp, that's not expected to feed a problem.  No problem.

There are some great new toys out there.  We build our new wpops with as 
many of them as we can.  The most important person in our network though is 
the customer, they are still quite happy with what they get from their b 
radios.


marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 8:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



I believe I said we use reduced X2 cloaking for reduced RF spectrum
usage, which you do not use because you have older gear or software
that does not support it.  You even agreed that reduced bandwidth
works but that you chose not to use it.  G mode does not have to play
nice with B gear and that is why the newer drivers have selections for
b only, b/g mixed or g only, so you cannot kill a G system with a
single B client.  If you simply replace that B client with a modern
system you'll not have the troubles you do now.

In my role of supporting people, I spend the bulk of my time dealing
with people trying to make older B only systems work.  They have
reached the end of life simply due to the amount of B mode use out
there.  X2 cloaking extends the life of 2.4 GHz and in many cases is
simply a software upgrade to get that new capability.  It could also
require an Atheros card to replace a prism or Orinoco and in more than
a few cases it will require outright replacement of the entire system.

You can't make a half hearted attempt at doing this.  It is all or
nothing.  Try G mode with X2 cloaking and move over more and more big
users to it.  They will be happy and you will spend less time doing
tech support.  Even in a quiet environment X2 cloaking is still the
way to go.  Having double the number of non overlapping channels means
much more spectrum to play with.  X2 cloaking gives slightly higher
power output, better receive sensitivity and higher digital processing
conversion gain due to the reduced number OFDM RF carriers.  It is
superior.  Simple.

I do understand why people don't want to hear that.  They have been
operating on the basis that they were doing the right thing and they
were making money, so they had it right.  In reality they have been
duped by the manufacturers who could not figure out how to do it
right, or who made more money flogging last gen technology.  So don't
get mad at me, get mad at the guys who sold you your current B only
client gear.  They are the ones who mislead you.  I'm just the
messenger and the guy with a better system.  You want what I have but
you are angry that your current gear does not do it.

I am on one location that has 7 other Access Points all beaming to the
same town site.  Nothing works if we use standard 20 MHz channels.  X2
cloaking works on pretty much any channel I wish to use and I use 4 of
those, so the total is 11 radios in 2.4 GHz from that site and all
going to the same general location.  My stuff works and I think their
stuff works because we are just noise to them, and the whole concept
of spread spectrum is not being bothered by noise.

This is why I said B is dead and G is the new thing, simply because of
the cloaking ability.  If more people switched to cloaking then even
the standard stuff would be better.  This is sort of like the way 900
MHz is rebounding because nobody is using it anymore, plus the new
radios and drivers can have 4 channels of 5 MHz RF spectrum.  That 5
MHz can deliver a solid 6.5 mbps and up to 12 mbps with compression
kicking in.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:59:18 -0800, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote
 I know this goes farther than the B versus G debate that was started,
 but the key thing in being able to do this is the cloaking with its
 reduced RF spectrum use.  A B mode AP cannot do cloaking, nor can
 your AP do it if the AP is not an Atheros with a driver that
 properly supports the ability.

It must be, because running your gear, I cannot get G mode to work 
acceptably

AT ALL.

In my area, every channel has SOME noise on it.  Even with signal levels 
in

the low '60's, I could never achieve better than 350 to 400 KB / sec
throughput for a DEPLOYED AP and client, and B mode could hit 1400 KB/sec
using compressible data, about 650-700 wihtout compression.

Narrowing channels appears to kill the G characteristic of waiting for
completely clear air before it will transmit.   Without cloaking, a 
nearly
idle access point in G mode with a G client, will have varying 1 to 400 
ms
pings as it waits for clear air to transmit in.   Switching to B mode 
gives

you rock solid 1 to 7 ms pings on an active AP with a number of clients.


 B is dead and is holding the Industry back.  If you use B mode then
 you NEED 400 mW radios because

Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-05 Thread Tom DeReggi
I won't join into the arguement of B versus G and Amp versus no amp, but I 
will say


I got three links working last week, using Cloaking, that were not able to 
be made work without Cloaking ability.
When I can make a software parameter change and go from bad link to good 
link, thats something that can not be ignored.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



No you don't.

wpci1: atheros100   -73dbm  -96dbm   23 2442  sta,U1,x2 
00:80:48:39:8e:42


war-platform ~  starutil 10.10.251.1 password -rx
rx rate: 1220 KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
war-platform ~ 
war-platform ~  traceroute -n 10.10.251.1
traceroute to 10.10.251.1 (10.10.251.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1  10.10.67.1  5.532 ms  10.319 ms  4.523 ms
2  10.10.12.5  6.805 ms  11.779 ms  4.623 ms
3  10.10.227.1  5.018 ms  6.86 ms  5.174 ms
4  10.10.226.254  5.307 ms  7.747 ms  5.948 ms
5  10.10.251.1  8.279 ms  12.21 ms  5.814 ms

This is the client at 13 miles in X2 cloaking.  The AP is a 16 dB 60
degree sector and the client is a 24 dB grid.  If this were an AP in
the middle I could just as easily use a 15 dB omni and achieve almost
identical results.  Both units have a Compex WLM-54SuperG radio.  No
high power, no amplifiers.  I don't need it and neither do you.

An amplifier adds noise and worse, it increases the time to transition
from tx to rx, which requires that you use long preamble which slows
performance down.  The worst thing it adds is signal, which you do not
need and which messes up areas outside your coverage.

You have been using amps for so long you just believe you always have
to use them.  A lot of companies have made a lot of money selling
unnecessary amplifiers and they prey on the guys who do not know any
better.  That is fine normally and you would just laugh at the guy for
not knowing better, but when that guy is in the same area as you are
trying to serve, then it is not funny.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an
amp
marlon

- Original Message -
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


 Amps?

 The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO

 Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card.


 Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
 marlon

 - Original Message - From: George Rogato 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


 Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than 
 lots

 of B ap's.

 Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be 
 issues.

 Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.

 The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out 
 with

 omni's and sectors all over the place.



 Mac Dearman wrote:

  How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to 
 implement

 G,
 but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many 
 clients
 running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there 
 would

 be
 trouble in Paradise here!!

  Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
 antennas on one tower?)

 Mac



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On

 Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
 Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

 Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B 
 link.

  G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
 requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

 Lonnie

 On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I 
 install

 today are G.
 60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection
 and
 even low 80's beat B.

 B stands for Bad
 G stands for Good





 Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

 It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

 Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the
 antennas
 that you need to make it work right.

 Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the
 calcs,
 and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

 laters,
 marlon

 - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



 I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

 Typically, what Dbi gain

Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-05 Thread rabbtux rabbtux

Forgive my ignorance, but is this 'cloaking' you speak of, a feature
of 802.11G, or is it exclusively starOS, or can I find in in Mikrotik
as well??

On 2/5/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I won't join into the arguement of B versus G and Amp versus no amp, but I
will say

I got three links working last week, using Cloaking, that were not able to
be made work without Cloaking ability.
When I can make a software parameter change and go from bad link to good
link, thats something that can not be ignored.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


 No you don't.

 wpci1: atheros100   -73dbm  -96dbm   23 2442  sta,U1,x2
 00:80:48:39:8e:42

 war-platform ~  starutil 10.10.251.1 password -rx
 rx rate: 1220 KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
 war-platform ~ 
 war-platform ~  traceroute -n 10.10.251.1
 traceroute to 10.10.251.1 (10.10.251.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  10.10.67.1  5.532 ms  10.319 ms  4.523 ms
 2  10.10.12.5  6.805 ms  11.779 ms  4.623 ms
 3  10.10.227.1  5.018 ms  6.86 ms  5.174 ms
 4  10.10.226.254  5.307 ms  7.747 ms  5.948 ms
 5  10.10.251.1  8.279 ms  12.21 ms  5.814 ms

 This is the client at 13 miles in X2 cloaking.  The AP is a 16 dB 60
 degree sector and the client is a 24 dB grid.  If this were an AP in
 the middle I could just as easily use a 15 dB omni and achieve almost
 identical results.  Both units have a Compex WLM-54SuperG radio.  No
 high power, no amplifiers.  I don't need it and neither do you.

 An amplifier adds noise and worse, it increases the time to transition
 from tx to rx, which requires that you use long preamble which slows
 performance down.  The worst thing it adds is signal, which you do not
 need and which messes up areas outside your coverage.

 You have been using amps for so long you just believe you always have
 to use them.  A lot of companies have made a lot of money selling
 unnecessary amplifiers and they prey on the guys who do not know any
 better.  That is fine normally and you would just laugh at the guy for
 not knowing better, but when that guy is in the same area as you are
 trying to serve, then it is not funny.

 Lonnie

 On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an
 amp
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


  Amps?
 
  The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO
 
  Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card.
 
 
  Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
  Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
  marlon
 
  - Original Message - From: George Rogato
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
 
 
  Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than
  lots
  of B ap's.
 
  Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be
  issues.
  Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.
 
  The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out
  with
  omni's and sectors all over the place.
 
 
 
  Mac Dearman wrote:
 
   How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to
  implement
  G,
  but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many
  clients
  running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there
  would
  be
  trouble in Paradise here!!
 
   Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
  antennas on one tower?)
 
  Mac
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
  On
  Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
  Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
 
  Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B
  link.
   G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
  requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.
 
  Lonnie
 
  On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I
  install
  today are G.
  60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
  60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection
  and
  even low 80's beat B.
 
  B stands for Bad
  G stands for Good
 
 
 
 
 
  Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 
  It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.
 
  Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the
  antennas
  that you need to make it work right.
 
  Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the
  calcs,
  and compute a 10 dB or so fade

Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-05 Thread Tom DeReggi
Our stategy has been to use high quality AP sector antennas with really good 
F/B ratio.  Cutting out noise is equivellent to adding gain.
Not that I'm against hipower cards, I'm just saying so many people forget 
about F/B radio in their antenna choices and that Noise is accumulative from 
360 degrees.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



Amps?

The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO

Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card.


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
marlon

- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots 
of B ap's.


Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. 
Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.


The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with 
omni's and sectors all over the place.




Mac Dearman wrote:

 How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement 
G,

but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients
running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would 
be

trouble in Paradise here!!

 Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
antennas on one tower?)

Mac



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
 G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
today are G.
60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection 
and

even low 80's beat B.

B stands for Bad
G stands for Good





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the 
antennas

that you need to make it work right.

Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the 
calcs,

and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas




I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications 
(long

range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be
good for?
Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, 
but

PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-05 Thread Tom DeReggi
If I put my money behind the bet I'd say the RFLinx amps would likely be 
the winner.  We've used their B/G OEM amp successfully. I do not have any 
real specs to back that opinion up, as I rarely ever use an AMP on the AP 
side, as it prevents using a high gain sector antenna based on FCC regs.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots 
of B ap's.


Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. 
Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.


The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with 
omni's and sectors all over the place.




Mac Dearman wrote:
 How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement 
G,

but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients
running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would 
be

trouble in Paradise here!!

 Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
antennas on one tower?)

Mac



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
 G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
today are G.
60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and
even low 80's beat B.

B stands for Bad
G stands for Good





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the antennas
that you need to make it work right.

Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the 
calcs,

and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas




I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long
range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be
good for?
Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but
PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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RE: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-05 Thread Faisal Imtiaz
'Cloaking' is the term used by the StarOS to refer to the functionality that
allows for changing channel width from 20Mhz to 10Mhz or 5Mhz.

According to
http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?p=30343sid=d1e41e16905346726003d1f2
b84d7ea2
Mikrotik also has this functionality as of version 2.9.12

Alvarion VL radios also have this ability.

However my current understanding is that this functionality may not fully
interoperate with another mfg.'s equipment.


Faisal Imtiaz
SnappyDSL.net

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of rabbtux rabbtux
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Forgive my ignorance, but is this 'cloaking' you speak of, a feature of
802.11G, or is it exclusively starOS, or can I find in in Mikrotik as well??

On 2/5/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I won't join into the arguement of B versus G and Amp versus no amp, 
 but I will say

 I got three links working last week, using Cloaking, that were not 
 able to be made work without Cloaking ability.
 When I can make a software parameter change and go from bad link to 
 good link, thats something that can not be ignored.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 12:07 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


  No you don't.
 
  wpci1: atheros100   -73dbm  -96dbm   23 2442  sta,U1,x2
  00:80:48:39:8e:42
 
  war-platform ~  starutil 10.10.251.1 password -rx rx rate: 1220 
  KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit) war-platform ~  war-platform ~  
  traceroute -n 10.10.251.1 traceroute to 10.10.251.1 (10.10.251.1), 
  30 hops max, 40 byte packets
  1  10.10.67.1  5.532 ms  10.319 ms  4.523 ms
  2  10.10.12.5  6.805 ms  11.779 ms  4.623 ms
  3  10.10.227.1  5.018 ms  6.86 ms  5.174 ms
  4  10.10.226.254  5.307 ms  7.747 ms  5.948 ms
  5  10.10.251.1  8.279 ms  12.21 ms  5.814 ms
 
  This is the client at 13 miles in X2 cloaking.  The AP is a 16 dB 60 
  degree sector and the client is a 24 dB grid.  If this were an AP in 
  the middle I could just as easily use a 15 dB omni and achieve 
  almost identical results.  Both units have a Compex WLM-54SuperG 
  radio.  No high power, no amplifiers.  I don't need it and neither do
you.
 
  An amplifier adds noise and worse, it increases the time to 
  transition from tx to rx, which requires that you use long preamble 
  which slows performance down.  The worst thing it adds is signal, 
  which you do not need and which messes up areas outside your coverage.
 
  You have been using amps for so long you just believe you always 
  have to use them.  A lot of companies have made a lot of money 
  selling unnecessary amplifiers and they prey on the guys who do not 
  know any better.  That is fine normally and you would just laugh at 
  the guy for not knowing better, but when that guy is in the same 
  area as you are trying to serve, then it is not funny.
 
  Lonnie
 
  On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have 
  an amp
  marlon
 
  - Original Message -
  From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
 
 
   Amps?
  
   The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO
  
   Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card.
  
  
   Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
   Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
   marlon
  
   - Original Message - From: George Rogato
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
   Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
  
  
   Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better 
   than lots of B ap's.
  
   Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can 
   be issues.
   Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.
  
   The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built 
   out with omni's and sectors all over the place.
  
  
  
   Mac Dearman wrote:
  
How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to 
   implement G, but I have so many towers sectored out and then 
   we have so many clients running wireless routers close to the 
   CPE that I feel like there would be trouble in Paradise here!!
  
Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? 
   (Multiple antennas on one tower?)
  
   Mac
  
  
  
   -Original Message-
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
   [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
   On
   Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
   Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
   To: WISPA General List
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
  
   Totally

Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-05 Thread Tom DeReggi
This thread has changed off its original intent. In case anyone was 
wondering why I started the thread
A top quality 18dbi Dual Polarity antenna enclosure (5.1G-5.8G) is about to 
hit the market for a reasonable cost (near rootenna costs).
I was trying to get a feel for how popular they will be in that 
configuration.


The question is, What percentage of one's installs could be obtained with 
an 18dbi CPE enclosure?


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the antennas 
that you need to make it work right.


Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, 
and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.


laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short 
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?

Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long 
range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good 
for?

Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but 
PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. 
The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference 
resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be 
accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros 
cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-05 Thread Tom DeReggi

So what's the answer Lonnie?
Does Star OS cloaking do anything proprietary, or is it strictly unlocking 
the Atheros's ability to utilize smaller channels, and likely able to work 
with any wifi vendor that decides to unlock this Atheros feature?


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: rabbtux rabbtux [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



Forgive my ignorance, but is this 'cloaking' you speak of, a feature
of 802.11G, or is it exclusively starOS, or can I find in in Mikrotik
as well??

On 2/5/07, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I won't join into the arguement of B versus G and Amp versus no amp, but 
I

will say

I got three links working last week, using Cloaking, that were not able 
to

be made work without Cloaking ability.
When I can make a software parameter change and go from bad link to good
link, thats something that can not be ignored.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message -
From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2007 12:07 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


 No you don't.

 wpci1: atheros100   -73dbm  -96dbm   23 2442  sta,U1,x2
 00:80:48:39:8e:42

 war-platform ~  starutil 10.10.251.1 password -rx
 rx rate: 1220 KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
 war-platform ~ 
 war-platform ~  traceroute -n 10.10.251.1
 traceroute to 10.10.251.1 (10.10.251.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  10.10.67.1  5.532 ms  10.319 ms  4.523 ms
 2  10.10.12.5  6.805 ms  11.779 ms  4.623 ms
 3  10.10.227.1  5.018 ms  6.86 ms  5.174 ms
 4  10.10.226.254  5.307 ms  7.747 ms  5.948 ms
 5  10.10.251.1  8.279 ms  12.21 ms  5.814 ms

 This is the client at 13 miles in X2 cloaking.  The AP is a 16 dB 60
 degree sector and the client is a 24 dB grid.  If this were an AP in
 the middle I could just as easily use a 15 dB omni and achieve almost
 identical results.  Both units have a Compex WLM-54SuperG radio.  No
 high power, no amplifiers.  I don't need it and neither do you.

 An amplifier adds noise and worse, it increases the time to transition
 from tx to rx, which requires that you use long preamble which slows
 performance down.  The worst thing it adds is signal, which you do not
 need and which messes up areas outside your coverage.

 You have been using amps for so long you just believe you always have
 to use them.  A lot of companies have made a lot of money selling
 unnecessary amplifiers and they prey on the guys who do not know any
 better.  That is fine normally and you would just laugh at the guy for
 not knowing better, but when that guy is in the same area as you are
 trying to serve, then it is not funny.

 Lonnie

 On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an
 amp
 marlon

 - Original Message -
 From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


  Amps?
 
  The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO
 
  Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card.
 
 
  Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
  Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
  marlon
 
  - Original Message - From: George Rogato
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
 
 
  Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better 
  than

  lots
  of B ap's.
 
  Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be
  issues.
  Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.
 
  The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out
  with
  omni's and sectors all over the place.
 
 
 
  Mac Dearman wrote:
 
   How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to
  implement
  G,
  but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many
  clients
  running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there
  would
  be
  trouble in Paradise here!!
 
   Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? 
  (Multiple

  antennas on one tower?)
 
  Mac
 
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

  On
  Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
  Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
 
  Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B
  link.
   G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
  requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.
 
  Lonnie
 
  On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients

Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the antennas that 
you need to make it work right.


Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and 
compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.


laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS 
or Mid-range CPE links?

Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long 
range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good 
for?

Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but 
PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards. 
The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference 
resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be 
accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros 
cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

Mark,

What ap antennas are you using there?

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:38:04 -0500, Tom DeReggi wrote

I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications
(long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would
it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice,
 but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm
CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good
for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.


Ok, where do I start...  I can't tell that antenna design matters a bit
whether you're using OFDM or QAM or... ???  Seems the radio waves 
propagate

the same.

I'm using 18 db grids out to well past 20 miles, with no amps and no high
powered radios (using CM-9's).  I have ONE client with a 24 db grid at 17
miles or so, and he's got like a -60's RSSI.  Doesn't even need it, but it
was mounted to his house when I hooked him up.  So I saved myself 40 bucks
and used his.

I have one client btween 29 and 30 miles using a 16 db Vagi, from
Pacwireless.  Again, no high powered cards, and he's got around 12 to 15 
db

SNR ( -80 to -83).  I was going to use a 19 db grid, but my antenna was
defective, and that was the only other thing in the van.

Star-OS access point,  Compex WP54AG client board, running Ikarus.

I think our maximum throughput in 11b mode (won't work in G, sorry) was 
350KB

or so.  The customer is a 2M client, and we can get 2M in a speed test any
hour of the day or night.

My expeirience with G mode (not ofdm specifically) is that much higher 
RSSI

is required to work at all.

I've seen OFDM clients work fine for 900 mhz at -85, so long as you 
weren't

hoping to get past 1M throughput in a 5mhz wide channel.

My first 40 clients were ALL 18 db grids, be they 1 mile or 23 miles.





Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband

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Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread George Rogato
I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install 
today are G.

60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and 
even low 80's beat B.


B stands for Bad
G stands for Good





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the antennas 
that you need to make it work right.


Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, 
and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.


laters,
marlon

- Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short 
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?

Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long 
range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be 
good for?

Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but 
PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 
cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for 
interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was 
needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such 
Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread George Rogato

I use pretty much all rootennas these days
5gig, 2 gig, and even 900 now.
There is times when I may still need a grid, It just does not happen 
very often. I've got a bunch of them I just took down and I still would 
rather spend the money and use a rootenna type antenna.



The way I figure it is, why mess with cabling and have that much more 
loss and that much more to go wrong, if you don't have to.
I even use them for sector antennas. Wish Pac had a lower gain, higher 
beamwidth rootenna for ap use.





Tom DeReggi wrote:

I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short 
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?

Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long 
range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be 
good for?

Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but 
PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 
cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for 
interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed 
it could be accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 
 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband




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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

Actually G mode works better than that.  We have clients with -80 dB
and they can pull a steady 10 mbps on a X2 cloaked channel (10 MHz of
RF bandwidth).  Even at -85 dB they can still pull 5 mbps and burst to
10 mbps.

Of course these results are with Atheros cards.  I have no idea about
other brands of G mode cards.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the antennas that
you need to make it work right.

Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs, and
compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message -
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

 Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short Near-LOS
 or Mid-range CPE links?
 Is 18 dbi enough?

 I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long
 range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be good
 for?
 Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

 I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but
 PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9 cards.
 The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for interference
 resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was needed it could be
 accommodated with higher power radios such Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros
 cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
today are G.
60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and
even low 80's beat B.

B stands for Bad
G stands for Good





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

 Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the antennas
 that you need to make it work right.

 Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs,
 and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

 laters,
 marlon

 - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


 I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

 Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
 Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
 Is 18 dbi enough?

 I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long
 range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be
 good for?
 Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

 I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but
 PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
 interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
 needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
 Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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RE: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Mac Dearman
 How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G,
but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients
running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be
trouble in Paradise here!!

 Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
antennas on one tower?)

Mac



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
 G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
 today are G.
 60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and
 even low 80's beat B.

 B stands for Bad
 G stands for Good





 Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
  It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.
 
  Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the antennas
  that you need to make it work right.
 
  Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs,
  and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.
 
  laters,
  marlon
 
  - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
  Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
 
 
  I wanted to get some feedback from the List.
 
  Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
  Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
  Is 18 dbi enough?
 
  I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long
  range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be
  good for?
  Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?
 
  I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but
  PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
  cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
  interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
  needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
  Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.
 
  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
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http://www.star-os.com/
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RE: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Mac Dearman
But George :-) answer my question:

Are you running G mode on towers with multiple broadcasts? Like a tower with
3 120* sectors?



Mac Dearman

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots 
of B ap's.

Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. 
Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.

The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with 
omni's and sectors all over the place.



Mac Dearman wrote:
  How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G,
 but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients
 running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be
 trouble in Paradise here!!
 
  Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
 antennas on one tower?)
 
 Mac
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
 Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
 
 Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
  G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
 requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.
 
 Lonnie
 
 On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
today are G.
60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and
even low 80's beat B.

B stands for Bad
G stands for Good





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the antennas
that you need to make it work right.

Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs,
and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long
range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be
good for?
Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but
PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots 
of B ap's.


Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. 
Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.


The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with 
omni's and sectors all over the place.




Mac Dearman wrote:
 How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement 
G,

but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients
running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be
trouble in Paradise here!!

 Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
antennas on one tower?)

Mac



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
 G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
today are G.
60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and
even low 80's beat B.

B stands for Bad
G stands for Good





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the antennas
that you need to make it work right.

Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs,
and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas




I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long
range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be
good for?
Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but
PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread George Rogato



Mac Dearman wrote:

But George :-) answer my question:

Are you running G mode on towers with multiple broadcasts? Like a tower with
3 120* sectors?


My Original main tower is 3 sectors of B, too many B clients to swap an 
AP over and find out at that busy noisy site. Would be the ultimate 
answer to your question though. I'm slowly moving the clients of to G to 
do just this.


All the other locations are small pops that have either 1 or 2 G ap's 
and are either fed with A or in some cases G. I have some pops that are 
cm9 G and 200mw B as ap's and no problem.


I do however have many many G omni's that can see/hear each other and 
work fine.


I am not using any cloaking, just straight 20MHz wifi channels.

I also understand the concern and opinions of using omni's ;P

George



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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread George Rogato

Amps?

The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO

Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card.


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
marlon

- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than 
lots of B ap's.


Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be 
issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.


The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with 
omni's and sectors all over the place.




Mac Dearman wrote:

 How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to 
implement G,

but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients
running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there 
would be

trouble in Paradise here!!

 Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
antennas on one tower?)

Mac



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
 G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
today are G.
60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and
even low 80's beat B.

B stands for Bad
G stands for Good





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the 
antennas

that you need to make it work right.

Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the 
calcs,

and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas




I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications 
(long

range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be
good for?
Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but
PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

We run as many as 4 G mode with 16 dB 60 degree sectors.  The AP uses
WLM54SuperG Atheros radios with X2 cloaking so this means the 4
channels are not overlapping.  We are in a valley and the AP sites are
typically on the sides, so that we do not require coverage on the back
side.  Some of my towers use only 2 radios with 16 dB 60 degree
sectors pointed straight down the valley and people from the back side
can still get a usable -85 dB.  We use the WLM54SuperG radios (from
Compex) on the AP and client and we are very happy with the
performance.  The Client is using a 14 dB Rootenna for the case and
antenna in one.  Just drop the cat5 with POE to the user provided
switch and it is online.

For a microcell we use 5 GHz to feed the site with one CM9 radio and
we then use a 15 dB omni for 2.4 GHz and we use the other two radios
for 900 MHz and another 5 GHz feed to another site.

Most of my subscribers can now see at least 3 and as many as 6 of my
Access Points.  This gives me an incredible ability to switch them if
I need.  This is Mesh, plain and simple.  The ability to have multiple
choices is what Mesh is all about.  If the backbone is Mesh then all
sites will have multiple paths to the Internet and a single failure
merely has everyone move to another AP and Mesh Routing takes care of
the move.  I can pull the power plug on an AP and within 1 minute all
users are automatically moved to another AP and are back surfing.

I know this goes farther than the B versus G debate that was started,
but the key thing in being able to do this is the cloaking with its
reduced RF spectrum use.  A B mode AP cannot do cloaking, nor can your
AP do it if the AP is not an Atheros with a driver that properly
supports the ability.

B is dead and is holding the Industry back.  If you use B mode then
you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise.  If you use G mode and X2
cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY better
performance.  Just to be sure about this point -- I am speaking from
EXPERIENCE.  This is not some plan I someday hope to try.  It is what
we use and is what a lot of others use as well.

OFDM was invented as an improvement over previous modulation
techniques.  Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it
actually works better?  Is it because you have an investment in B only
radios and realize you have to reinvest in G radios?  It is sort of
like the phone companies hanging onto their copper lines.  Wireless
started to cream them and now you are seeing that G is creaming B, so
that the old established operators are in trouble.

Lonnie


On 2/4/07, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G,
but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients
running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be
trouble in Paradise here!!

 Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
antennas on one tower?)

Mac



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
 G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
 today are G.
 60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and
 even low 80's beat B.

 B stands for Bad
 G stands for Good





 Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
  It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.
 
  Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the antennas
  that you need to make it work right.
 
  Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs,
  and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.
 
  laters,
  marlon
 
  - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
  Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
 
 
  I wanted to get some feedback from the List.
 
  Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
  Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
  Is 18 dbi enough?
 
  I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long
  range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be
  good for?
  Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?
 
  I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but
  PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
  cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
  interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
  needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios

Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

The days of amplifiers are over.  We cover more than 70 miles along
our Valley.  We build microcells for small pockets of users that are
too far to reach with normal antennas or have trees or hills, etc.
Blasting more power is the way we used to do it, remember?  Attitudes
have to change and the first one that needs to change is that amps are
good.  They are evil and cause nothing but grief for yourself and
anybody else wanting to use the spectrum.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
marlon

- Original Message -
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


 Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots
 of B ap's.

 Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues.
 Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.

 The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with
 omni's and sectors all over the place.



 Mac Dearman wrote:
  How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement
 G,
 but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients
 running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be
 trouble in Paradise here!!

  Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
 antennas on one tower?)

 Mac



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
 Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

 Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
  G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
 requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

 Lonnie

 On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
today are G.
60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and
even low 80's beat B.

B stands for Bad
G stands for Good





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the antennas
that you need to make it work right.

Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the calcs,
and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications (long
range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be
good for?
Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, but
PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

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 --
 George Rogato

 Welcome to WISPA

 www.wispa.org

 http://signup.wispa.org/
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Lonnie Nunweiler
Valemount Networks Corporation
http://www.star-os.com/
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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

There is nothing wrong with an omni if the users are all around it.
You get better signals with a sector but a microcell is the perfect
place for an omni.  The fact that your current sites can see each
other is awesome and you are part way to achieving a Mesh.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



Mac Dearman wrote:
 But George :-) answer my question:

 Are you running G mode on towers with multiple broadcasts? Like a tower with
 3 120* sectors?

My Original main tower is 3 sectors of B, too many B clients to swap an
AP over and find out at that busy noisy site. Would be the ultimate
answer to your question though. I'm slowly moving the clients of to G to
do just this.

All the other locations are small pops that have either 1 or 2 G ap's
and are either fed with A or in some cases G. I have some pops that are
cm9 G and 200mw B as ap's and no problem.

I do however have many many G omni's that can see/hear each other and
work fine.

I am not using any cloaking, just straight 20MHz wifi channels.

I also understand the concern and opinions of using omni's ;P

George



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Lonnie Nunweiler
Valemount Networks Corporation
http://www.star-os.com/
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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread George Rogato
Right on with the OFDM, I put a 5.5 mile A shot in the other day, that 
even with my  binoculars, I can not see the water tank popping up above 
the tree line and I have:


 x1:xf xxx.94  99  -76 -72 48  48   C   **

I would call that shot a Near LOS shot.

Reason I don't cloak G is because I want the laptop connectivity option.
I for see a day when I may offer a laptop service for a lower price.
I've tried it early on, and it worked well. But for what I'm doing I 
won't cloak G.


A is cloakable, but with reduced speed. Right now I want as much speed 
as possible.


Low powered is key here. Every time we hear about or experience issues 
it's noise related. Why poison the spectrum?






Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

We run as many as 4 G mode with 16 dB 60 degree sectors.  The AP uses
WLM54SuperG Atheros radios with X2 cloaking so this means the 4
channels are not overlapping.  We are in a valley and the AP sites are
typically on the sides, so that we do not require coverage on the back
side.  Some of my towers use only 2 radios with 16 dB 60 degree
sectors pointed straight down the valley and people from the back side
can still get a usable -85 dB.  We use the WLM54SuperG radios (from
Compex) on the AP and client and we are very happy with the
performance.  The Client is using a 14 dB Rootenna for the case and
antenna in one.  Just drop the cat5 with POE to the user provided
switch and it is online.

For a microcell we use 5 GHz to feed the site with one CM9 radio and
we then use a 15 dB omni for 2.4 GHz and we use the other two radios
for 900 MHz and another 5 GHz feed to another site.

Most of my subscribers can now see at least 3 and as many as 6 of my
Access Points.  This gives me an incredible ability to switch them if
I need.  This is Mesh, plain and simple.  The ability to have multiple
choices is what Mesh is all about.  If the backbone is Mesh then all
sites will have multiple paths to the Internet and a single failure
merely has everyone move to another AP and Mesh Routing takes care of
the move.  I can pull the power plug on an AP and within 1 minute all
users are automatically moved to another AP and are back surfing.

I know this goes farther than the B versus G debate that was started,
but the key thing in being able to do this is the cloaking with its
reduced RF spectrum use.  A B mode AP cannot do cloaking, nor can your
AP do it if the AP is not an Atheros with a driver that properly
supports the ability.

B is dead and is holding the Industry back.  If you use B mode then
you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise.  If you use G mode and X2
cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY better
performance.  Just to be sure about this point -- I am speaking from
EXPERIENCE.  This is not some plan I someday hope to try.  It is what
we use and is what a lot of others use as well.

OFDM was invented as an improvement over previous modulation
techniques.  Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it
actually works better?  Is it because you have an investment in B only
radios and realize you have to reinvest in G radios?  It is sort of
like the phone companies hanging onto their copper lines.  Wireless
started to cream them and now you are seeing that G is creaming B, so
that the old established operators are in trouble.

Lonnie


On 2/4/07, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to 
implement G,

but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients
running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be
trouble in Paradise here!!

 Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
antennas on one tower?)

Mac



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
 G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
 today are G.
 60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection and
 even low 80's beat B.

 B stands for Bad
 G stands for Good





 Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
  It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.
 
  Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the 
antennas

  that you need to make it work right.
 
  Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the 
calcs,

  and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.
 
  laters,
  marlon
 
  - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
  Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas
 
 
  I

RE: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Mac Dearman
See inline please 

 

Mac Dearman

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:59 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

 

We run as many as 4 G mode with 16 dB 60 degree sectors.  The AP uses

WLM54SuperG Atheros radios with X2 cloaking so this means the 4

channels are not overlapping.  We are in a valley and the AP sites are

typically on the sides, so that we do not require coverage on the back

side.  Some of my towers use only 2 radios with 16 dB 60 degree

sectors pointed straight down the valley and people from the back side

can still get a usable -85 dB.  We use the WLM54SuperG radios (from

Compex) on the AP and client and we are very happy with the

performance.  The Client is using a 14 dB Rootenna for the case and

antenna in one.  Just drop the cat5 with POE to the user provided

switch and it is online.

 

 

**This sounds like the answer I was looking for, but you failed horribly in
announcing that all the CPE would have to be StarOS as well. Why don't you
make something that will work with what we already have so many of? I am not
now nor will I ever be an ISP that is totally dependant on one mans gear or
software. All my eggs are never in one basket :-)

 

 

 

big snip

 

 

B is dead and is holding the Industry back.  If you use B mode then

you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise. 

 

 

**Now you are talking outside your arena and insulting the majority on this
list. You don't know what my noise floor is as I live in Louisiana and my
noise floor is just that - -MINE. I created the noise and I live with I have
created. That's one of the purposes for the sectors. Furthermore - B is
not dead. I might as well say unless you live a new house and drive a new
car, own a crew cab truck with a big diesel engine in it then you aren't a
successful in life. Do you have a new home, car and a big truck Lonnie? You
need to learn to NOT be so radical with what you say as well as take into
account that not everyone owns a software company and runs 100% Mikrotik or
StarOS which is what it would take to cut the spectrum up in chunks as you
are doing. I can bet I would never hear Tully make the comment that B is
dead!! That really Galls my Grapes and scorches my Tater patch! If B were
dead - - I guess I would be buried. You know what they say - - opinions are
like # holes - - some of us just don't mind exposing ourselves in public
places.

 

 

 If you use G mode and X2

cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY better

performance.  Just to be sure about this point -- I am speaking from

EXPERIENCE.  This is not some plan I someday hope to try.  It is what

we use and is what a lot of others use as well.

 

 

**I know a bunch of folks on this list PERSONALLY and don't know of even 1
that is all G unless they have only a couple APs out. As far as the old
hands at wireless - - we are using a menagerie of different gear as so many
vendors and software writers stuff was not suitable or they had more bugs
than good drivers. We still have to tolerate different screw ups from you
software writers from time to time.

 

OFDM was invented as an improvement over previous modulation

techniques.  Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it

actually works better?  Is it because you have an investment in B only

radios and realize you have to reinvest in G radios? 

 

**I have about 70 MikroTik (as well as Proxim, Trango, and others)
APs/routers in the air today. I have G capable radios in every AP and is
the reason for my asking my original non insulting question. I hate I feel
like a June bug and you are the Duck! You really crack me up Lonnie - - Get
off that box!

 

 It is sort of

like the phone companies hanging onto their copper lines.  Wireless

started to cream them and now you are seeing that G is creaming B, so

that the old established operators are in trouble.

 

 

**Just more trash talk and smack! I hate I even entered into this thread now
- I am outta here!!!

 

 

 

Mac

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Lonnie

 

 

On 2/4/07, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement G,

 but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients

 running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would be

 trouble in Paradise here!!

 

  Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple

 antennas on one tower?)

 

 Mac

 

 

 

 -Original Message-

 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

 Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler

 Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM

 To: WISPA General List

 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

 

 Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.

  G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B

 requires superb signals

Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread George Rogato



Mac Dearman wrote:
See inline please 

 my noise floor is as I live in Louisiana and my

noise floor is just that - -MINE. I created the noise and I live with I have
created. That's one of the purposes for the sectors. 


Maybe part of the difference is the city and the woods. I serve both and 
understand the complexity.


I used to have lots of amps and even still have too many 200mw B cpe's 
getting the job done.


What I've found out and experienced is that when I started removing the 
high powered stuff, everything worked better.  Self interference 
disappeared. I caused a lot of noise.


Only way to get rid of a high powered shot is to build a closer in ap. 
or use 900, which hasn't been so appealing to me.


If this can't be done, high powered B is the answer and stay. Thats why 
my main site stays the way it is. there's no use swapping to G and 
having a few 200mw B cards yelling at it, it won't work well.


I think it's an evolving process, myself.

George
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RE: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Faisal Imtiaz
Mac,

You said:
--
**This sounds like the answer I was looking for, but you failed horribly in
announcing that all the CPE would have to be StarOS as well. Why don't you
make something that will work with what we already have so many of? I am not
now nor will I ever be an ISP that is totally dependant on one mans gear or
software. All my eggs are never in one basket :-)
---


Lonnie, described a configuration, which can be achieved by using a number
of devices, and not necessarily tied with StarOS. Yes, all of this
functionality is very conveniently built into StarOS, and may offer the
highest leverage of the monies spent.

But what I am curious about is why would you say that using StarOS would be
totally dependent on one man's gear. Using Motorola Canopy, Trango,
Alvarion, would be using one company's gear that does not interoperate.

Using StarOS on a Wrap/Soekris/PC board with Atheros/Ubiquity Wireless
modems is more like building your own PC hardware and putting on whatever
operating system one wants. 802.11 a/b/g are standards developed to have
different vendor's gear interoperate with each other, and yes, each vendor
is free to use/create additional enhancements which may not be compatible
with other vendors, but this is nothing different from all the existing
practice.

Moto claims, P7,P8,P9 hardware from the same product line may not
interoperate unless you use a particular firmware or change hardware.. ( I
am not speaking specifics, more a of general statement)

Trango, has gone thru the  cycle where the original 5380AP's would need to
be replaced so as to upgrade...
Heck even in the routing world, there are feature on a Cisco Router, which
does not work with any other router or might not even work with some of
their own product.

StarOS is more of a 'Router' operating system like CISCO IOS or Juniper OS,
which just happens to be highly tuned for wireless networks , and less of a
'Wireless Radio' (e.g like Moto Canopy, Trango, Alvarion etc).


I would have thought that if not being tied to any one mans' gear was
important, ( my personal thoughts are that this is a Utopian Goal, heavily
promoted by folks who sell product branding), you would be much more open to
embracing something like StarOS (which is built on Linux, open source !) and
offer the greatest amount of flexibility than otherwise.

My personal experience is that this is more like the Windows vs Linux/*Nix
debate. It really does not matter what one says and how one justifies it, at
the end of the day it is all about How Comfortable does one feel? with one
product vs the other.

Respectfully,
 

Faisal Imtiaz
SnappyDSL.net
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 3:31 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

See inline please 

 

Mac Dearman

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:59 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

 

We run as many as 4 G mode with 16 dB 60 degree sectors.  The AP uses

WLM54SuperG Atheros radios with X2 cloaking so this means the 4

channels are not overlapping.  We are in a valley and the AP sites are

typically on the sides, so that we do not require coverage on the back

side.  Some of my towers use only 2 radios with 16 dB 60 degree

sectors pointed straight down the valley and people from the back side

can still get a usable -85 dB.  We use the WLM54SuperG radios (from

Compex) on the AP and client and we are very happy with the

performance.  The Client is using a 14 dB Rootenna for the case and

antenna in one.  Just drop the cat5 with POE to the user provided

switch and it is online.

 

 

**This sounds like the answer I was looking for, but you failed horribly in
announcing that all the CPE would have to be StarOS as well. Why don't you
make something that will work with what we already have so many of? I am not
now nor will I ever be an ISP that is totally dependant on one mans gear or
software. All my eggs are never in one basket :-)

 

 

 

big snip

 

 

B is dead and is holding the Industry back.  If you use B mode then

you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise. 

 

 

**Now you are talking outside your arena and insulting the majority on this
list. You don't know what my noise floor is as I live in Louisiana and my
noise floor is just that - -MINE. I created the noise and I live with I have
created. That's one of the purposes for the sectors. Furthermore - B is
not dead. I might as well say unless you live a new house and drive a new
car, own a crew cab truck with a big diesel engine in it then you aren't a
successful in life. Do you have a new home, car and a big truck Lonnie? You
need to learn to NOT be so radical with what you say as well as take into
account

Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

Mac, nothing I said should have been even remotely insulting.  I have
read you trading insults with people and my post was quite tame in
comparison.  Your response was actually quite insulting and shows you
can dish it out.  Methinks you do this to get your way.

I did not say anything about X2 cloaking requiring any particular
brand of software and I will not even mention what we use.  There are
lots of systems that now support 5  10 MHz RF bandwidths.

If you put your head back in the sand I hope you know what is exposed.
The phone company ignored technology for years too, and then new guys
who embraced technology jumped in and showed them up.  At one time you
embraced new technology, now you just want to sit back and make money
from the investment you have already made.

We develop new techniques to solve old problems using technology.
Nobody says you have to use it.  You maybe should but hey, that is up
to you.

Lonnie

Lonnie
On 2/4/07, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

See inline please



Mac Dearman



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 1:59 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



We run as many as 4 G mode with 16 dB 60 degree sectors.  The AP uses

WLM54SuperG Atheros radios with X2 cloaking so this means the 4

channels are not overlapping.  We are in a valley and the AP sites are

typically on the sides, so that we do not require coverage on the back

side.  Some of my towers use only 2 radios with 16 dB 60 degree

sectors pointed straight down the valley and people from the back side

can still get a usable -85 dB.  We use the WLM54SuperG radios (from

Compex) on the AP and client and we are very happy with the

performance.  The Client is using a 14 dB Rootenna for the case and

antenna in one.  Just drop the cat5 with POE to the user provided

switch and it is online.





**This sounds like the answer I was looking for, but you failed horribly in
announcing that all the CPE would have to be StarOS as well. Why don't you
make something that will work with what we already have so many of? I am not
now nor will I ever be an ISP that is totally dependant on one mans gear or
software. All my eggs are never in one basket :-)







big snip





B is dead and is holding the Industry back.  If you use B mode then

you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise.





**Now you are talking outside your arena and insulting the majority on this
list. You don't know what my noise floor is as I live in Louisiana and my
noise floor is just that - -MINE. I created the noise and I live with I have
created. That's one of the purposes for the sectors. Furthermore - B is
not dead. I might as well say unless you live a new house and drive a new
car, own a crew cab truck with a big diesel engine in it then you aren't a
successful in life. Do you have a new home, car and a big truck Lonnie? You
need to learn to NOT be so radical with what you say as well as take into
account that not everyone owns a software company and runs 100% Mikrotik or
StarOS which is what it would take to cut the spectrum up in chunks as you
are doing. I can bet I would never hear Tully make the comment that B is
dead!! That really Galls my Grapes and scorches my Tater patch! If B were
dead - - I guess I would be buried. You know what they say - - opinions are
like # holes - - some of us just don't mind exposing ourselves in public
places.





 If you use G mode and X2

cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY better

performance.  Just to be sure about this point -- I am speaking from

EXPERIENCE.  This is not some plan I someday hope to try.  It is what

we use and is what a lot of others use as well.





**I know a bunch of folks on this list PERSONALLY and don't know of even 1
that is all G unless they have only a couple APs out. As far as the old
hands at wireless - - we are using a menagerie of different gear as so many
vendors and software writers stuff was not suitable or they had more bugs
than good drivers. We still have to tolerate different screw ups from you
software writers from time to time.



OFDM was invented as an improvement over previous modulation

techniques.  Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it

actually works better?  Is it because you have an investment in B only

radios and realize you have to reinvest in G radios?



**I have about 70 MikroTik (as well as Proxim, Trango, and others)
APs/routers in the air today. I have G capable radios in every AP and is
the reason for my asking my original non insulting question. I hate I feel
like a June bug and you are the Duck! You really crack me up Lonnie - - Get
off that box!



 It is sort of

like the phone companies hanging onto their copper lines.  Wireless

started to cream them and now you are seeing that G is creaming B, so

that the old established operators are in trouble

Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread wispa
On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:59:18 -0800, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote
 I know this goes farther than the B versus G debate that was started,
 but the key thing in being able to do this is the cloaking with its
 reduced RF spectrum use.  A B mode AP cannot do cloaking, nor can 
 your AP do it if the AP is not an Atheros with a driver that 
 properly supports the ability.

It must be, because running your gear, I cannot get G mode to work acceptably 
AT ALL. 

In my area, every channel has SOME noise on it.  Even with signal levels in 
the low '60's, I could never achieve better than 350 to 400 KB / sec 
throughput for a DEPLOYED AP and client, and B mode could hit 1400 KB/sec 
using compressible data, about 650-700 wihtout compression.  

Narrowing channels appears to kill the G characteristic of waiting for 
completely clear air before it will transmit.   Without cloaking, a nearly 
idle access point in G mode with a G client, will have varying 1 to 400 ms 
pings as it waits for clear air to transmit in.   Switching to B mode gives 
you rock solid 1 to 7 ms pings on an active AP with a number of clients.

 
 B is dead and is holding the Industry back.  If you use B mode then
 you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise.  

Nonsense.  My highest power radios are CM9's and I have have few to no noise 
issues in B mode.  

B has limited throughput and yet it has it's uses.  It is certainly 
NOT holding industry back.   I believe that investing in B only technology 
is dumb, though.  I thought it was dumb when I started a little less than 3 
years ago, which is why I tried not to.  I've found that 11a is actually a 
bit more friendly, in that it's easier to target your ap's and clients, and 
exclude noise sources outside the pattern.  


If you use G mode and 
 X2 cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY 
 better performance.  Just to be sure about this point -- I am 
 speaking from EXPERIENCE.  This is not some plan I someday hope to 
 try.  It is what we use and is what a lot of others use as well.

Sub 100 MW works awesome in B mode, too, so long as the writers of the 
drivers dont' disable the awesome enhanced features available in Atheros 
based radios.  ( HINT HINT )

 
 OFDM was invented as an improvement over previous modulation
 techniques.  Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it
 actually works better?  Is it because you have an investment in B 
 only radios and realize you have to reinvest in G radios?  It is 
 sort of like the phone companies hanging onto their copper lines.  Wireless
 started to cream them and now you are seeing that G is creaming B, so
 that the old established operators are in trouble.

That's a lotta hype.   I put YOUR  gear in place, as per YOUR instructions, 
and YOUR predictions don't work out that way. 

I've found that there's caveats to all this.  OFDM makes great RF links, but 
it takes a little bit more signal to maintain low retransmissions or errors.  
On the other hand,  OFDM is dramatically better when it comes to surviving 
multipath issues and fresnel encroachment.

G mode is simply not workable in a busy environment, unless you can force the 
radio to abandon listening to non ofdm noise, or narrow your channels enough 
to get away from it.  By design, standard 11g can have it's performance 
killed by even a single B client attempting to associate to the AP.  

Not explaining this to people wanting to implement is irresponsible, in my 
view. 

 
 Lonnie
 
 -- 
 Lonnie Nunweiler
 Valemount Networks Corporation
 http://www.star-os.com/
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Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an 
amp

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



Amps?

The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO

Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card.


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
marlon

- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots 
of B ap's.


Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues. 
Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.


The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with 
omni's and sectors all over the place.




Mac Dearman wrote:

 How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement 
G,

but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients
running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would 
be

trouble in Paradise here!!

 Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
antennas on one tower?)

Mac



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
 G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
today are G.
60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection 
and

even low 80's beat B.

B stands for Bad
G stands for Good





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the 
antennas

that you need to make it work right.

Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the 
calcs,

and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas




I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications 
(long

range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be
good for?
Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice, 
but

PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread George Rogato
I'm not so sure about that Marlon. I put in a 10 mile link the other day 
just using a pair of cm9's and rootennas.


xxx   x6:0e x5.688  -74 -66 48  54   C

Of course this was A.

I try to keep the long shots 5 gig and the short ones 2 gig.
The way I figure it, there's a lot of 2 gig out there in all shapes and 
flavors and when you go 10 - 15 miles it's inevidable that there will be 
some interference.


If we are talking the middle of nowhere, you can easily do 15 miles with 
cm9 G, no amps.


Mark has issues with G because he is using mostly V2 G, I believe.

V2 G is a diferent animal, a diferent driver than V3. V3 is the best to 
date.





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an 
amp

marlon

- Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



Amps?

The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO

Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card.


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
marlon

- Original Message - From: George Rogato 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than 
lots of B ap's.


Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be 
issues. Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.


The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out 
with omni's and sectors all over the place.




Mac Dearman wrote:

 How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to 
implement G,
but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many 
clients
running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there 
would be

trouble in Paradise here!!

 Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
antennas on one tower?)

Mac



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
 G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
today are G.
60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast 
connection and

even low 80's beat B.

B stands for Bad
G stands for Good





Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the 
antennas

that you need to make it work right.

Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the 
calcs,

and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas




I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
Is 18 dbi enough?

I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications 
(long
range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would 
it be

good for?
Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred 
choice, but

PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such
Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

I believe I said we use reduced X2 cloaking for reduced RF spectrum
usage, which you do not use because you have older gear or software
that does not support it.  You even agreed that reduced bandwidth
works but that you chose not to use it.  G mode does not have to play
nice with B gear and that is why the newer drivers have selections for
b only, b/g mixed or g only, so you cannot kill a G system with a
single B client.  If you simply replace that B client with a modern
system you'll not have the troubles you do now.

In my role of supporting people, I spend the bulk of my time dealing
with people trying to make older B only systems work.  They have
reached the end of life simply due to the amount of B mode use out
there.  X2 cloaking extends the life of 2.4 GHz and in many cases is
simply a software upgrade to get that new capability.  It could also
require an Atheros card to replace a prism or Orinoco and in more than
a few cases it will require outright replacement of the entire system.

You can't make a half hearted attempt at doing this.  It is all or
nothing.  Try G mode with X2 cloaking and move over more and more big
users to it.  They will be happy and you will spend less time doing
tech support.  Even in a quiet environment X2 cloaking is still the
way to go.  Having double the number of non overlapping channels means
much more spectrum to play with.  X2 cloaking gives slightly higher
power output, better receive sensitivity and higher digital processing
conversion gain due to the reduced number OFDM RF carriers.  It is
superior.  Simple.

I do understand why people don't want to hear that.  They have been
operating on the basis that they were doing the right thing and they
were making money, so they had it right.  In reality they have been
duped by the manufacturers who could not figure out how to do it
right, or who made more money flogging last gen technology.  So don't
get mad at me, get mad at the guys who sold you your current B only
client gear.  They are the ones who mislead you.  I'm just the
messenger and the guy with a better system.  You want what I have but
you are angry that your current gear does not do it.

I am on one location that has 7 other Access Points all beaming to the
same town site.  Nothing works if we use standard 20 MHz channels.  X2
cloaking works on pretty much any channel I wish to use and I use 4 of
those, so the total is 11 radios in 2.4 GHz from that site and all
going to the same general location.  My stuff works and I think their
stuff works because we are just noise to them, and the whole concept
of spread spectrum is not being bothered by noise.

This is why I said B is dead and G is the new thing, simply because of
the cloaking ability.  If more people switched to cloaking then even
the standard stuff would be better.  This is sort of like the way 900
MHz is rebounding because nobody is using it anymore, plus the new
radios and drivers can have 4 channels of 5 MHz RF spectrum.  That 5
MHz can deliver a solid 6.5 mbps and up to 12 mbps with compression
kicking in.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Sun, 4 Feb 2007 11:59:18 -0800, Lonnie Nunweiler wrote
 I know this goes farther than the B versus G debate that was started,
 but the key thing in being able to do this is the cloaking with its
 reduced RF spectrum use.  A B mode AP cannot do cloaking, nor can
 your AP do it if the AP is not an Atheros with a driver that
 properly supports the ability.

It must be, because running your gear, I cannot get G mode to work acceptably
AT ALL.

In my area, every channel has SOME noise on it.  Even with signal levels in
the low '60's, I could never achieve better than 350 to 400 KB / sec
throughput for a DEPLOYED AP and client, and B mode could hit 1400 KB/sec
using compressible data, about 650-700 wihtout compression.

Narrowing channels appears to kill the G characteristic of waiting for
completely clear air before it will transmit.   Without cloaking, a nearly
idle access point in G mode with a G client, will have varying 1 to 400 ms
pings as it waits for clear air to transmit in.   Switching to B mode gives
you rock solid 1 to 7 ms pings on an active AP with a number of clients.


 B is dead and is holding the Industry back.  If you use B mode then
 you NEED 400 mW radios because of the noise.

Nonsense.  My highest power radios are CM9's and I have have few to no noise
issues in B mode.

B has limited throughput and yet it has it's uses.  It is certainly
NOT holding industry back.   I believe that investing in B only technology
is dumb, though.  I thought it was dumb when I started a little less than 3
years ago, which is why I tried not to.  I've found that 11a is actually a
bit more friendly, in that it's easier to target your ap's and clients, and
exclude noise sources outside the pattern.


If you use G mode and
 X2 cloaking then you need less than 100 mW and you'll have WAY
 better performance.  Just to be sure about this point -- I am
 

Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-04 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler

No you don't.

wpci1: atheros100   -73dbm  -96dbm   23 2442  sta,U1,x200:80:48:39:8e:42

war-platform ~  starutil 10.10.251.1 password -rx
rx rate: 1220 KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
war-platform ~ 
war-platform ~  traceroute -n 10.10.251.1
traceroute to 10.10.251.1 (10.10.251.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1  10.10.67.1  5.532 ms  10.319 ms  4.523 ms
2  10.10.12.5  6.805 ms  11.779 ms  4.623 ms
3  10.10.227.1  5.018 ms  6.86 ms  5.174 ms
4  10.10.226.254  5.307 ms  7.747 ms  5.948 ms
5  10.10.251.1  8.279 ms  12.21 ms  5.814 ms

This is the client at 13 miles in X2 cloaking.  The AP is a 16 dB 60
degree sector and the client is a 24 dB grid.  If this were an AP in
the middle I could just as easily use a 15 dB omni and achieve almost
identical results.  Both units have a Compex WLM-54SuperG radio.  No
high power, no amplifiers.  I don't need it and neither do you.

An amplifier adds noise and worse, it increases the time to transition
from tx to rx, which requires that you use long preamble which slows
performance down.  The worst thing it adds is signal, which you do not
need and which messes up areas outside your coverage.

You have been using amps for so long you just believe you always have
to use them.  A lot of companies have made a lot of money selling
unnecessary amplifiers and they prey on the guys who do not know any
better.  That is fine normally and you would just laugh at the guy for
not knowing better, but when that guy is in the same area as you are
trying to serve, then it is not funny.

Lonnie

On 2/4/07, Marlon K. Schafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

with sites that have 10 users in a 15 mile RADIUS, you have to have an
amp
marlon

- Original Message -
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


 Amps?

 The success of G is less noise and less power. IMHO

 Never looked for a G amp or tried a G high powered card.


 Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
 Has anyone found an amp that'll work CORRECTLY with g AND b?
 marlon

 - Original Message - From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 11:21 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas


 Nothing scientific Mac, but I think lots of G ap's work better than lots
 of B ap's.

 Seems when I've seen high powered B ap's in the mix there can be issues.
 Where as when I see only low powered G things still work.

 The area I cover is fairly small, so i'm getting densly built out with
 omni's and sectors all over the place.



 Mac Dearman wrote:

  How are y'all running G in so many places? I would love to implement
 G,
 but I have so many towers sectored out and then we have so many clients
 running wireless routers close to the CPE that I feel like there would
 be
 trouble in Paradise here!!

  Are any of you running G on anything but an Omni antenna? (Multiple
 antennas on one tower?)

 Mac



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Lonnie Nunweiler
 Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2007 12:30 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

 Totally agree.  A bad G link will still give as good as a GOOD B link.
  G will give 5 mbps even when it is close to not connecting and B
 requires superb signals to get 5 mbps.

 Lonnie

 On 2/4/07, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I have quite abit of G out there. All the clients and ap's I install
 today are G.
 60's is great, 70's work just fine too.
 60's get top performance, 70' is still a great very fast connection
 and
 even low 80's beat B.

 B stands for Bad
 G stands for Good





 Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

 It's not about antenna size.  It's about signal levels.

 Most g radios need -60ish signal levels to work well.  Use the
 antennas
 that you need to make it work right.

 Find the sensitivity levels of the product you are using, run the
 calcs,
 and compute a 10 dB or so fade margin.

 laters,
 marlon

 - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Saturday, February 03, 2007 12:38 PM
 Subject: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas



 I wanted to get some feedback from the List.

 Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short
 Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links?
 Is 18 dbi enough?

 I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications
 (long
 range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would it be
 good for?
 Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?

 I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice,
 but
 PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm CM9
 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good for
 interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was
 needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios

Re: [WISPA] Typical OFDM CPE antennas

2007-02-03 Thread wispa
On Sat, 3 Feb 2007 15:38:04 -0500, Tom DeReggi wrote
 I wanted to get some feedback from the List.
 
 Typically, what Dbi gain antennas are you desiring for OFDM short 
 Near-LOS or Mid-range CPE links? Is 18 dbi enough?
 
 I'm well aware that 18dbi will not be good for many applications 
 (long range or noisy), but what percentage of CPE installtions would 
 it be good for? Could 75% of the CPE installs be acheived with 18dbi?
 
 I personally, would pick a 21-23db antenna as a preferred choice,
  but PacWireless Rootennas are 19dbi, and often used with 13-15 dbm 
 CM9 cards. The beamwidth of 18dbi ( 20-30 degrees) is pretty good 
 for interference resilience and OFDM maximized, and if more gain was 
 needed it could be accommodated with higher power radios such 
 Teletronic's 18dbm Atheros cards or Ubiquiti's SR5 18-26db cards.

Ok, where do I start...  I can't tell that antenna design matters a bit 
whether you're using OFDM or QAM or... ???  Seems the radio waves propagate 
the same.

I'm using 18 db grids out to well past 20 miles, with no amps and no high 
powered radios (using CM-9's).  I have ONE client with a 24 db grid at 17 
miles or so, and he's got like a -60's RSSI.  Doesn't even need it, but it 
was mounted to his house when I hooked him up.  So I saved myself 40 bucks 
and used his.  

I have one client btween 29 and 30 miles using a 16 db Vagi, from 
Pacwireless.  Again, no high powered cards, and he's got around 12 to 15 db 
SNR ( -80 to -83).  I was going to use a 19 db grid, but my antenna was 
defective, and that was the only other thing in the van.

Star-OS access point,  Compex WP54AG client board, running Ikarus. 

I think our maximum throughput in 11b mode (won't work in G, sorry) was 350KB 
or so.  The customer is a 2M client, and we can get 2M in a speed test any 
hour of the day or night. 

My expeirience with G mode (not ofdm specifically) is that much higher RSSI 
is required to work at all.  

I've seen OFDM clients work fine for 900 mhz at -85, so long as you weren't 
hoping to get past 1M throughput in a 5mhz wide channel. 

My first 40 clients were ALL 18 db grids, be they 1 mile or 23 miles.



 
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
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Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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