RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
We are kinda stuck in the same dilema Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 9:53 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Yes the answer is not. But the question is one of great interest to me, and I'm interested in learning from others experience on the topic. ON our network our biggest focus right now is to improve the methods to shorten time and improve acracy of diagnosing performance issue on a network. We have great tools that help us find problems that other ISPs often don;t even realize exist becauyse they have limited their abilty to test their network based on how they designed it. But it takes us way to long to conclusivelly come up with a diagnosis because their are so many possible places where failures could occurs to contribute to degregation. I'm not talking about major failures. I'm talking about reported problems like... Intermittent disconnects. Intermittent VOIP quality performance. Etc. (I am NOT saying that we have an overly large amount of problems, I'm just saying a large numbner of people report problems because networking is complicated and end users are under trained.). 95% of the time we can clear our name and prove that causes were related to issues off of our network. But it can take a lot of tiem to prove it. And if you don;t prove it, how do you know your network really is operating correctly. So how does this problem apply to this thread?... Well, if I simplify my network, there will be fewer things to look at in the diagnosis process. What simplications can be made, without compromising performance or abilty to trouble shoot the network conclusively? These questions need to be asked when considering routing versus bridged. Do you consider the needs of your prospective clients, or your needs to better offer your core services? All things to be considered. Right now we are both 100% routed and 95% VLANed. It gives us a lot of power and security features. But I tell you it is a super management headache. I'm looking for ways to simplify. Do I go more towards Layer2 or more towards Layer3? Thats a question I'm looking at hard right now. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 3:14 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device So that's a no then Tom ;) Using various bandwidth test tools (such as the one builtin to Mikrotik) from/to multiple source/destinations you can generate all sorts of traffic profiles. You can decide on the size of the packets, layer 4, direction and even bandwidth so I'd say it's very possible to set-up a test environment that isn't too far of real world. Anyone else tested? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: 14 June 2006 03:13 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? Good question. But the problem there is creating a real world test environment. Convergence, can be tested somewhat accurately in low network utilization situations. To adequately test Jitter/Delay you really need to load the network, as that is when the jitter and sparatic latency happens. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device The delay in switching a packet at hardware is less than the delay in routing a packet at software. This is 1 of the reasons that Cisco created the GSR and why an MPLS switched network is fast than a plain routed network. I'm not too interested in convergence times as we only have very minimal outages so RSTP should suffice. How fast a packet can traverse our network on the other hand is important so that we can reliably run VoIP and other delay/jitter sensitive applications. Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: 13 June 2006 13:26 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Paul Hendry wrote: We too have been looking at moving from routed to a switched Mikrotik for the core network but the unknown quantity seems to be if there are any latency or speed issues related to the move. A true switched network is faster than a routed network as the switching is done at a hardware level but in Mikrotik I
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
So that's a no then Tom ;) Using various bandwidth test tools (such as the one builtin to Mikrotik) from/to multiple source/destinations you can generate all sorts of traffic profiles. You can decide on the size of the packets, layer 4, direction and even bandwidth so I'd say it's very possible to set-up a test environment that isn't too far of real world. Anyone else tested? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: 14 June 2006 03:13 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? Good question. But the problem there is creating a real world test environment. Convergence, can be tested somewhat accurately in low network utilization situations. To adequately test Jitter/Delay you really need to load the network, as that is when the jitter and sparatic latency happens. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device The delay in switching a packet at hardware is less than the delay in routing a packet at software. This is 1 of the reasons that Cisco created the GSR and why an MPLS switched network is fast than a plain routed network. I'm not too interested in convergence times as we only have very minimal outages so RSTP should suffice. How fast a packet can traverse our network on the other hand is important so that we can reliably run VoIP and other delay/jitter sensitive applications. Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: 13 June 2006 13:26 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Paul Hendry wrote: We too have been looking at moving from routed to a switched Mikrotik for the core network but the unknown quantity seems to be if there are any latency or speed issues related to the move. A true switched network is faster than a routed network as the switching is done at a hardware level but in Mikrotik I believe both switching and routed is done in software. What have you seen? Faster in what way? Certainly, a routed network is going to beat a switched network in terms of covergence speed. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/362 - Release Date: 12/06/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/362 - Release Date: 12/06/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.4/363 - Release Date: 13/06/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.4/363 - Release Date: 13/06/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
We have Smartbits test gear...great stuff, but the fact is that you really don't know how something will perform until you put it on real circuits and connect it up to real gear. You can get a very good idea, particularly if you know how to test, but there is always an element of uncertainty. Jeff Jeff Broadwick ImageStream 800-813-5123 x106 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Hendry Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 3:14 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device So that's a no then Tom ;) Using various bandwidth test tools (such as the one builtin to Mikrotik) from/to multiple source/destinations you can generate all sorts of traffic profiles. You can decide on the size of the packets, layer 4, direction and even bandwidth so I'd say it's very possible to set-up a test environment that isn't too far of real world. Anyone else tested? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: 14 June 2006 03:13 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? Good question. But the problem there is creating a real world test environment. Convergence, can be tested somewhat accurately in low network utilization situations. To adequately test Jitter/Delay you really need to load the network, as that is when the jitter and sparatic latency happens. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device The delay in switching a packet at hardware is less than the delay in routing a packet at software. This is 1 of the reasons that Cisco created the GSR and why an MPLS switched network is fast than a plain routed network. I'm not too interested in convergence times as we only have very minimal outages so RSTP should suffice. How fast a packet can traverse our network on the other hand is important so that we can reliably run VoIP and other delay/jitter sensitive applications. Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: 13 June 2006 13:26 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Paul Hendry wrote: We too have been looking at moving from routed to a switched Mikrotik for the core network but the unknown quantity seems to be if there are any latency or speed issues related to the move. A true switched network is faster than a routed network as the switching is done at a hardware level but in Mikrotik I believe both switching and routed is done in software. What have you seen? Faster in what way? Certainly, a routed network is going to beat a switched network in terms of covergence speed. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/362 - Release Date: 12/06/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/362 - Release Date: 12/06/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.4/363 - Release Date: 13/06/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.4/363 - Release Date: 13/06/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Tom DeReggi wrote: Answer #1: Thats debatable. Do you not recall year 2000. 26 of the largest 29 telecom companies filed for Bankruptcy. Name brand ment bankrupt. Even for Cisco! Lets not forget who the largest investor was in Cogent, now Cisco's owned network. Back then folks were building companies with different understandings of the market than today; name brand gear had nothing to do with it. Certainly, plenty of open source companies didn't make it either. There is some irony here. I'm happy with Cogent. I put my confidence in Cogent a soley Cisco Name Brand equipment network. Well for my backbone that is. Even though I religious have chosen a proprietary modification of Open Source on our local transport network. But Cogent's bankruptcy was highly due to not being able to afford their own Cisco equipment. So moral of this story... USe Cisco when someone else pays for it, so they go bankrupt and not you. That isn't the moral of the story; its not even a good story. Cogent was recently trading at a new 52-week high until they decided to raise 93 million on a stock offering. I invested in Cogent when they were trading in the low $4s and sold around $10. I am quite happy with my return on investment. Would I be able to say that about your company? Don't answer that. Investors look for companies that have a real opportunity to gain significant market share due to a competitive advantage. However, these same investors want to limit their risk by making sure the company in question doesn't risk too much. That means if you are going to be different than other telecom companies then pick and choose carefully what standards you follow and where you innovate. Answer #2: Because people that can afford name brand have capitol and funding. And logically companies that have adequate capitol and funding often do better than companies that do not. The missing peice of this puzzle is How well would a company with equivellent funding and capitol do if they chose Open Source instead? I'd argue they'd be a stunning success. The only difference is that they would be more likely to invest more in their employees than in their equipment vendors. Possibly encourage migratation to an employee owned company, or where the wealth got spread more evenly between the participants. No serious VC would invest in a telecom company that didn't use name brand gear for their network. It doesn't make any sense to do so. All in all the gear may be the same, but why take the extra risk. When it comes right down to it, name brand gear isn't that much more expensive. You should be able to make a business using name brand gear just fine. I think you missed the boat on this topic. Large companies (well funded and capitolized) could do well with Open Source, because they are more likely to reach the economic proportion (growth) to spread the high cost of maintenance and software development between many subscibers. The providers that suffer from Open Source sometimes are the smaller ISPs. The reason is they under estimate the time involved in Open Source, and do not have enough scale (subscribers or revenue) to justify the costs of addative development. Your last statement is the reason to avoid anything that is not your core competency. I have decades of software development experience, but we pay software vendors for things like CRM, accounting, case management, etc. Just because I could spend the time building software that would likely be better and cheaper than what we are using doesn't mean I should. My time is better spent building our business. Network gear, radio gear, software, etc are all just means to an end. We are in the business of selling a service; not building products. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Sure switched is faster than routed, if you have a 100 mbps cat5 or 1 gbps fibre network. If you have a radio based network then routing or switching will be about the same speed. Our routed performance is actually slightly higher than our bridged performance. Lonnie On 6/13/06, Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The delay in switching a packet at hardware is less than the delay in routing a packet at software. This is 1 of the reasons that Cisco created the GSR and why an MPLS switched network is fast than a plain routed network. I'm not too interested in convergence times as we only have very minimal outages so RSTP should suffice. How fast a packet can traverse our network on the other hand is important so that we can reliably run VoIP and other delay/jitter sensitive applications. Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: 13 June 2006 13:26 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Paul Hendry wrote: We too have been looking at moving from routed to a switched Mikrotik for the core network but the unknown quantity seems to be if there are any latency or speed issues related to the move. A true switched network is faster than a routed network as the switching is done at a hardware level but in Mikrotik I believe both switching and routed is done in software. What have you seen? Faster in what way? Certainly, a routed network is going to beat a switched network in terms of covergence speed. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/362 - Release Date: 12/06/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/362 - Release Date: 12/06/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Yes the answer is not. But the question is one of great interest to me, and I'm interested in learning from others experience on the topic. ON our network our biggest focus right now is to improve the methods to shorten time and improve acracy of diagnosing performance issue on a network. We have great tools that help us find problems that other ISPs often don;t even realize exist becauyse they have limited their abilty to test their network based on how they designed it. But it takes us way to long to conclusivelly come up with a diagnosis because their are so many possible places where failures could occurs to contribute to degregation. I'm not talking about major failures. I'm talking about reported problems like... Intermittent disconnects. Intermittent VOIP quality performance. Etc. (I am NOT saying that we have an overly large amount of problems, I'm just saying a large numbner of people report problems because networking is complicated and end users are under trained.). 95% of the time we can clear our name and prove that causes were related to issues off of our network. But it can take a lot of tiem to prove it. And if you don;t prove it, how do you know your network really is operating correctly. So how does this problem apply to this thread?... Well, if I simplify my network, there will be fewer things to look at in the diagnosis process. What simplications can be made, without compromising performance or abilty to trouble shoot the network conclusively? These questions need to be asked when considering routing versus bridged. Do you consider the needs of your prospective clients, or your needs to better offer your core services? All things to be considered. Right now we are both 100% routed and 95% VLANed. It gives us a lot of power and security features. But I tell you it is a super management headache. I'm looking for ways to simplify. Do I go more towards Layer2 or more towards Layer3? Thats a question I'm looking at hard right now. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2006 3:14 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device So that's a no then Tom ;) Using various bandwidth test tools (such as the one builtin to Mikrotik) from/to multiple source/destinations you can generate all sorts of traffic profiles. You can decide on the size of the packets, layer 4, direction and even bandwidth so I'd say it's very possible to set-up a test environment that isn't too far of real world. Anyone else tested? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: 14 June 2006 03:13 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? Good question. But the problem there is creating a real world test environment. Convergence, can be tested somewhat accurately in low network utilization situations. To adequately test Jitter/Delay you really need to load the network, as that is when the jitter and sparatic latency happens. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device The delay in switching a packet at hardware is less than the delay in routing a packet at software. This is 1 of the reasons that Cisco created the GSR and why an MPLS switched network is fast than a plain routed network. I'm not too interested in convergence times as we only have very minimal outages so RSTP should suffice. How fast a packet can traverse our network on the other hand is important so that we can reliably run VoIP and other delay/jitter sensitive applications. Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: 13 June 2006 13:26 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Paul Hendry wrote: We too have been looking at moving from routed to a switched Mikrotik for the core network but the unknown quantity seems to be if there are any latency or speed issues related to the move. A true switched network is faster than a routed network as the switching is done at a hardware level but in Mikrotik I believe both switching and routed is done in software. What have you seen? Faster in what way? Certainly, a routed network is going to beat a switched network in terms of covergence speed. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Charles Wu wrote: It is worth noting that you lose the benefits of routing protocols when you bridge your network The above is the number one reason against using VLANs for layer 2 transport. A second important issue to consider is management. Every device from end-to-end where you want to deliver layer 2 transport requires configuration if you use VLANs. Both of the above issues are solved with MPLS. First, MPLS rides on top of your layer 3 network giving you all the benefits of routing protocols. Second, you only need to configure the edge device on either side of a layer 2 virtual circuit. All the devices in-between --including protection paths don't require additional configuration for each virtual circuit. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
We too have been looking at moving from routed to a switched Mikrotik for the core network but the unknown quantity seems to be if there are any latency or speed issues related to the move. A true switched network is faster than a routed network as the switching is done at a hardware level but in Mikrotik I believe both switching and routed is done in software. What have you seen? P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Sovereen Sent: 13 June 2006 04:12 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device We just completed converting our network from routed to bridged. Where each AP (we run Mikrotik) used to do its own DHCP and PPPoE to customers and speak OSPF to the network, the APs (still Mikrotik) now bridge traffic to a regional Mikrotik that handles PPPoE and DHCP for that region. We are using RSTP. In this way, people can roam from one tower to another and their DHCP lease is still good at the next tower. A region for us to 3 to 4 counties. We converted our first region about a month ago and finished the last one last weekend. We're very pleased with the results so far. Dave - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 9:22 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device It is worth noting that you lose the benefits of routing protocols when you bridge your network Sure, there's always RSTP... (heh) Many larger wireless / Wifi based architecture these days seem to be favoring a layer 3 tunneling / handoff method over a bridged layer 2 network -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device To clarify The term I referred to as Double VLAN is not the technically correct name (thats just what I call it), it is actually called Q in Q as stated by several in this thread. One of the reasons this is valuable is for a wholesale network. It basically allows you to create a single VLAN end to end across your network for a subscriber or reseller, and still use VLAN for your local needs to operate your network. I'll give an example of where I might use VLAN for my network need. I have a single fiber connection from the basement to the roof. On the roof I have a VLAN switch and 6 sector radios. I have a router in the basement. I could then seperate data between the different radio traffic by giving a unique VLAN to the Ethernet port that each sector radio connects to, and route between them in my basement router. I'll give an example of where I'd use a VLAN end to end for a reseller. Reseller has a connection between me and them at one point on my network. The reseller might provide the backbone and IPs. The client routes the customers traffic to a specific VLAN when entering my network. I then have that VLAN configured across my network until reaches the end user's building router that terminates the VLAN. Now what happens when the resellers customer (example 2) resides in the building (example 1)? Normally two VLANs can't exist simultaneously as teh switch wouldn;t know which ID to tag data with. Q in Q VLAN would allow one VLAN ID to reside in side of another VLAN. Its the same concept as tunnelling, except for its not. Now how does this apply to radios that support Q in Q? Depends. Use your imagination. The first problem is can the radio pass Q in Q VLAN data? Second can it tag it? Being able to tag VLAN data at the radio level can be extremely useful. First off it avoids having to configure a second device (VLAN switch) that complicates the automation of configurations. Part of the Idea is that CLECs and Governement, are all high on Security, and they do not want to have to coordinate complex IP models between their systems and the wholesalers, instead they want to be able to send traffic LAyer2 and seperate traffic so one client does not have the abilty to see the other client's traffic. Its sort of an Ethernet way of doing a Private Virtual Circuit. The only problem with VLAN is you need to have every component of you network that passes VLANs to be able to pass large packets so Full MTU can be delivered to clients. This is one of the limits to Wifi and regular switches, is many Wifi devices and all non managed switches do not pass large packets. Radio like Trango and Alvarion (with Q in Q support) have the abilty to pass large packets. The other advantage of VLAN is that when used across a PtMP design and VLAN support at CPE, it allows doing remote banwdith management based on the customers circuit ID, and having a way to distinguish and differentiate the data. Q in Q, gives the provider flexibilty on how and when they would like to use
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
Interesting, completely opposite of what is commonly preached Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED] Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp. tel 787.273.4143 fax 787.273.4145 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Sovereen Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 11:12 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device We just completed converting our network from routed to bridged. Where each AP (we run Mikrotik) used to do its own DHCP and PPPoE to customers and speak OSPF to the network, the APs (still Mikrotik) now bridge traffic to a regional Mikrotik that handles PPPoE and DHCP for that region. We are using RSTP. In this way, people can roam from one tower to another and their DHCP lease is still good at the next tower. A region for us to 3 to 4 counties. We converted our first region about a month ago and finished the last one last weekend. We're very pleased with the results so far. Dave - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 9:22 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device It is worth noting that you lose the benefits of routing protocols when you bridge your network Sure, there's always RSTP... (heh) Many larger wireless / Wifi based architecture these days seem to be favoring a layer 3 tunneling / handoff method over a bridged layer 2 network -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device To clarify The term I referred to as Double VLAN is not the technically correct name (thats just what I call it), it is actually called Q in Q as stated by several in this thread. One of the reasons this is valuable is for a wholesale network. It basically allows you to create a single VLAN end to end across your network for a subscriber or reseller, and still use VLAN for your local needs to operate your network. I'll give an example of where I might use VLAN for my network need. I have a single fiber connection from the basement to the roof. On the roof I have a VLAN switch and 6 sector radios. I have a router in the basement. I could then seperate data between the different radio traffic by giving a unique VLAN to the Ethernet port that each sector radio connects to, and route between them in my basement router. I'll give an example of where I'd use a VLAN end to end for a reseller. Reseller has a connection between me and them at one point on my network. The reseller might provide the backbone and IPs. The client routes the customers traffic to a specific VLAN when entering my network. I then have that VLAN configured across my network until reaches the end user's building router that terminates the VLAN. Now what happens when the resellers customer (example 2) resides in the building (example 1)? Normally two VLANs can't exist simultaneously as teh switch wouldn;t know which ID to tag data with. Q in Q VLAN would allow one VLAN ID to reside in side of another VLAN. Its the same concept as tunnelling, except for its not. Now how does this apply to radios that support Q in Q? Depends. Use your imagination. The first problem is can the radio pass Q in Q VLAN data? Second can it tag it? Being able to tag VLAN data at the radio level can be extremely useful. First off it avoids having to configure a second device (VLAN switch) that complicates the automation of configurations. Part of the Idea is that CLECs and Governement, are all high on Security, and they do not want to have to coordinate complex IP models between their systems and the wholesalers, instead they want to be able to send traffic LAyer2 and seperate traffic so one client does not have the abilty to see the other client's traffic. Its sort of an Ethernet way of doing a Private Virtual Circuit. The only problem with VLAN is you need to have every component of you network that passes VLANs to be able to pass large packets so Full MTU can be delivered to clients. This is one of the limits to Wifi and regular switches, is many Wifi devices and all non managed switches do not pass large packets. Radio like Trango and Alvarion (with Q in Q support) have the abilty to pass large packets. The other advantage of VLAN is that when used across a PtMP design and VLAN support at CPE, it allows doing remote banwdith management based on the customers circuit ID, and having a way to distinguish and differentiate the data. Q in Q, gives the provider flexibilty on how and when they would like to use VLAN and in multiple ways simultaneously. Its uncertain how Q in Q will be used for sure, as VLAN does add much complexity over say a basic bridged design. Part of the benefit, is that redundancy
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Paul Hendry wrote: We too have been looking at moving from routed to a switched Mikrotik for the core network but the unknown quantity seems to be if there are any latency or speed issues related to the move. A true switched network is faster than a routed network as the switching is done at a hardware level but in Mikrotik I believe both switching and routed is done in software. What have you seen? Faster in what way? Certainly, a routed network is going to beat a switched network in terms of covergence speed. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Hi Matt, Actually, our testing and real-world experience shows that convergence is faster in bridged RSTP network than it is in a routed OSPF network. We ran OSPF on our wireless network, and still do on our wired network. With default settings of a hello interval of 10 seconds and a dead router interval of 40 seconds, recovery from an outage and need to re-route, as you would expect, takes just over 40 seconds. We run with quicker settings on our network: a hello interval of 2 and a dead router interval of 12. As would be expected, recovery from an outage and need to re-route takes just over 12 seconds. Contrast that with our RSTP bridged network, where we broke a backhaul and forced traffic to route around the outage. The new route was 5 tower hops longer than the primary route, and it took about 6 seconds for traffic to move around the outage. I haven't done tests using STP, only RSTP, and my understanding is that STP is significantly slower. In that case, you may be right. Also, if you are running a routing protocol other than OSPF, especially something that has fast-reroute capabilities, you very well might do better with it than with RSTP. But in Mikrotik, OSPF and RSTP are your main options when discussing dynamic routing versus dynamic bridging, and RSTP really does converge quicker. Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 8:25 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Paul Hendry wrote: We too have been looking at moving from routed to a switched Mikrotik for the core network but the unknown quantity seems to be if there are any latency or speed issues related to the move. A true switched network is faster than a routed network as the switching is done at a hardware level but in Mikrotik I believe both switching and routed is done in software. What have you seen? Faster in what way? Certainly, a routed network is going to beat a switched network in terms of covergence speed. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
The delay in switching a packet at hardware is less than the delay in routing a packet at software. This is 1 of the reasons that Cisco created the GSR and why an MPLS switched network is fast than a plain routed network. I'm not too interested in convergence times as we only have very minimal outages so RSTP should suffice. How fast a packet can traverse our network on the other hand is important so that we can reliably run VoIP and other delay/jitter sensitive applications. Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: 13 June 2006 13:26 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Paul Hendry wrote: We too have been looking at moving from routed to a switched Mikrotik for the core network but the unknown quantity seems to be if there are any latency or speed issues related to the move. A true switched network is faster than a routed network as the switching is done at a hardware level but in Mikrotik I believe both switching and routed is done in software. What have you seen? Faster in what way? Certainly, a routed network is going to beat a switched network in terms of covergence speed. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/362 - Release Date: 12/06/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/362 - Release Date: 12/06/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Hi Paul, Regardless of whether you run routed or switched, the speed is about the same. Unlike a hardware switch that has special processors to handle traffic at wire speeds, a 10GB/s backplane, etc, Mikrotik runs on off-the-shelf PC hardware. The processing power needed to get a packet from port A to port B is about the same regardless of whether you route or switch. We haven't seen much of a performance difference between the two. A link that was 3 ms before seems to be 3 ms now. A multi-hop link that was 6 ms before seems to be about 6 ms now. For us, the advantages were: 1. Centralized customer management. All DHCP and PPPoE handled at a single point. To make changes, we have only one place to visit. 2. Ability to roam. We run the same SSID on all towers and sectors. Now when people roam from one tower to another, their session will follow them seamlessly. 3. Reduced CPU and memory consumption on the Mikrotiks on towers. NAT (connection tracking) and PPPoE are especially CPU and memory intensive. With each AP doing these functions, some of our busy towers were getting pegged at 100% CPU -- not a good thing. Those same towers are now averaging 25% CPU and never seem to go above 60% CPU. 4. Get rid of Mikrotik's buggy OSPF. We love OSPF and use it extensively on our network. But Mikrotik's OSPF implementation has been buggy since day 1 of RouterOS 2.9. We found that OSPF worked reliably under RouterOS 2.8, but under 2.9, we've seen boxes that have all neighbors and no routes, one neighbor (itself) and no routes, no neighbors at all, reset continuously (exstart/init sequence), etc. Everyone's situation is different, but for us, it was definitely the right decision to make. Regards, Dave 989-837-3790 x 151 989-837-3780 fax [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mercury.net 129 Ashman St, Midland, MI 48640 - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 8:03 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device We too have been looking at moving from routed to a switched Mikrotik for the core network but the unknown quantity seems to be if there are any latency or speed issues related to the move. A true switched network is faster than a routed network as the switching is done at a hardware level but in Mikrotik I believe both switching and routed is done in software. What have you seen? P. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Sovereen Sent: 13 June 2006 04:12 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device We just completed converting our network from routed to bridged. Where each AP (we run Mikrotik) used to do its own DHCP and PPPoE to customers and speak OSPF to the network, the APs (still Mikrotik) now bridge traffic to a regional Mikrotik that handles PPPoE and DHCP for that region. We are using RSTP. In this way, people can roam from one tower to another and their DHCP lease is still good at the next tower. A region for us to 3 to 4 counties. We converted our first region about a month ago and finished the last one last weekend. We're very pleased with the results so far. Dave - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 9:22 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device It is worth noting that you lose the benefits of routing protocols when you bridge your network Sure, there's always RSTP... (heh) Many larger wireless / Wifi based architecture these days seem to be favoring a layer 3 tunneling / handoff method over a bridged layer 2 network -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 5:30 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device To clarify The term I referred to as Double VLAN is not the technically correct name (thats just what I call it), it is actually called Q in Q as stated by several in this thread. One of the reasons this is valuable is for a wholesale network. It basically allows you to create a single VLAN end to end across your network for a subscriber or reseller, and still use VLAN for your local needs to operate your network. I'll give an example of where I might use VLAN for my network need. I have a single fiber connection from the basement to the roof. On the roof I have a VLAN switch and 6 sector radios. I have a router in the basement. I could then seperate data between the different radio traffic by giving a unique VLAN to the Ethernet port that each sector radio connects to, and route between them in my basement router. I'll give an example of where I'd use a VLAN end to end for a reseller. Reseller has
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
favoring a layer 3 tunneling / handoff method Care to elaborate on those methods. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 9:22 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device It is worth noting that you lose the benefits of routing protocols when you bridge your network Sure, there's always RSTP... (heh) Many larger wireless / Wifi based architecture these days seem to be favoring a layer 3 tunneling / handoff method over a bridged layer 2 network -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Matt, You brought up an excellent point regarding management gains with MPLS. In many cases, I'd argue MPLS the preferable choice. But MPLS is not always a viable choice, that VLAN can deliver viably. What I mean by that is... There is not yet a complete/stable/tried-and-true MPLS Open Source product on the market. (they exist but not recently updated or supported). Many providers have used Open Source to their advantage. Selecting MPLS may also mean migrating to a new foundation behind one's network. From Open Source to Name Brand. I'm not saying thats a bad thing. I'm just saying it might be more than a provider wants to do to accomplish their goals. VLAN allows an ISP to just drop it in. The trade off is a management headache. These comments are meant as a very generalized comment, there are obvious many exceptions to the view.. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Charles Wu wrote: It is worth noting that you lose the benefits of routing protocols when you bridge your network The above is the number one reason against using VLANs for layer 2 transport. A second important issue to consider is management. Every device from end-to-end where you want to deliver layer 2 transport requires configuration if you use VLANs. Both of the above issues are solved with MPLS. First, MPLS rides on top of your layer 3 network giving you all the benefits of routing protocols. Second, you only need to configure the edge device on either side of a layer 2 virtual circuit. All the devices in-between --including protection paths don't require additional configuration for each virtual circuit. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? Good question. But the problem there is creating a real world test environment. Convergence, can be tested somewhat accurately in low network utilization situations. To adequately test Jitter/Delay you really need to load the network, as that is when the jitter and sparatic latency happens. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Tuesday, June 13, 2006 9:02 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device The delay in switching a packet at hardware is less than the delay in routing a packet at software. This is 1 of the reasons that Cisco created the GSR and why an MPLS switched network is fast than a plain routed network. I'm not too interested in convergence times as we only have very minimal outages so RSTP should suffice. How fast a packet can traverse our network on the other hand is important so that we can reliably run VoIP and other delay/jitter sensitive applications. Anyone compared a routed solution with a Mikrotik bridged solution for delay/jitter? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: 13 June 2006 13:26 To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Paul Hendry wrote: We too have been looking at moving from routed to a switched Mikrotik for the core network but the unknown quantity seems to be if there are any latency or speed issues related to the move. A true switched network is faster than a routed network as the switching is done at a hardware level but in Mikrotik I believe both switching and routed is done in software. What have you seen? Faster in what way? Certainly, a routed network is going to beat a switched network in terms of covergence speed. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/362 - Release Date: 12/06/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/362 - Release Date: 12/06/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
AirmatrixOS is not starOS and does offer vlans. Its its own web based OS. You can order their stuff with starOS, but that's really only specific custoemrs that order it anymore. - Jeff On 6/8/06 10:03 PM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Airmatrix does VLAN but its uses StarOS, so it does VLAN the wrong way for some one trying to sell to carriers. If you sell to a carrier, they are going towant to be delivered a minimum of 1500 MTU. StarOS can't do that with VLAN. However, if you didn;t need VLAN, Defacto does give EXCELLENT support. And they ship ONTIME. They aren't the cheapest, but they give the value you are looking for. Mikrotik is the preferred solution if you need to do VLAN. Wisp-Router also offers support. He's been in business now for atleast 10 years. He may charge you by the minute, but not at a rate any higher than Cisco would charge you. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I could be missing the product you are suggesting, but the only dual radio products I can find our base station products. I not looking for a base station, I am looking for something client facing. Further, I see no mention of VLAN support. -Matt jeffrey thomas wrote: Airmatrix can do that. www.defactowireless.com On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 13:17:30 -0400, Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Lets say you are using vlans to not only segment traffic, but priortize traffic as well. So a double tagged vlan, would give you the ability to create A vlan for segmentation and a VLAN within that vlan for priortization, for additional segmentation as well. I could be wrong though. - Jeff On 6/9/06 7:50 AM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 9 Jun 2006, John Scrivner wrote: Can you or someone explain what double VLAN is? I have never heard of such a thing. How can it be used to help us? Not having read the entire thread, I'm assuming the term double VLAN refers to the ability to create a VLAN (or many) that each have VLANs inside them. There are some places where this may be needed, but it can get to be an extremely complex network. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
To clarify The term I referred to as Double VLAN is not the technically correct name (thats just what I call it), it is actually called Q in Q as stated by several in this thread. One of the reasons this is valuable is for a wholesale network. It basically allows you to create a single VLAN end to end across your network for a subscriber or reseller, and still use VLAN for your local needs to operate your network. I'll give an example of where I might use VLAN for my network need. I have a single fiber connection from the basement to the roof. On the roof I have a VLAN switch and 6 sector radios. I have a router in the basement. I could then seperate data between the different radio traffic by giving a unique VLAN to the Ethernet port that each sector radio connects to, and route between them in my basement router. I'll give an example of where I'd use a VLAN end to end for a reseller. Reseller has a connection between me and them at one point on my network. The reseller might provide the backbone and IPs. The client routes the customers traffic to a specific VLAN when entering my network. I then have that VLAN configured across my network until reaches the end user's building router that terminates the VLAN. Now what happens when the resellers customer (example 2) resides in the building (example 1)? Normally two VLANs can't exist simultaneously as teh switch wouldn;t know which ID to tag data with. Q in Q VLAN would allow one VLAN ID to reside in side of another VLAN. Its the same concept as tunnelling, except for its not. Now how does this apply to radios that support Q in Q? Depends. Use your imagination. The first problem is can the radio pass Q in Q VLAN data? Second can it tag it? Being able to tag VLAN data at the radio level can be extremely useful. First off it avoids having to configure a second device (VLAN switch) that complicates the automation of configurations. Part of the Idea is that CLECs and Governement, are all high on Security, and they do not want to have to coordinate complex IP models between their systems and the wholesalers, instead they want to be able to send traffic LAyer2 and seperate traffic so one client does not have the abilty to see the other client's traffic. Its sort of an Ethernet way of doing a Private Virtual Circuit. The only problem with VLAN is you need to have every component of you network that passes VLANs to be able to pass large packets so Full MTU can be delivered to clients. This is one of the limits to Wifi and regular switches, is many Wifi devices and all non managed switches do not pass large packets. Radio like Trango and Alvarion (with Q in Q support) have the abilty to pass large packets. The other advantage of VLAN is that when used across a PtMP design and VLAN support at CPE, it allows doing remote banwdith management based on the customers circuit ID, and having a way to distinguish and differentiate the data. Q in Q, gives the provider flexibilty on how and when they would like to use VLAN and in multiple ways simultaneously. Its uncertain how Q in Q will be used for sure, as VLAN does add much complexity over say a basic bridged design. Part of the benefit, is that redundancy is not always supported in an ideal way when VLAN is used. By allowing a VLAN end to end encapsulated in the other packets, it potentially could allow avoiding the pitfalls that limit redundancy by having the end locations (the reseller and the client) the one tagging the VLAN and knowing that that VLAN info survives any other VLAN tagging that may happen on the network, or for that matter abilty for that data to route across paths that are not technically that VLAN assignment on the other layer. I'm not explaining this clearly, but that is the gist of it. The end result is, if a provider's whole network supports Q in Q, it allows them to compete with other fiber Metro-E services. Many believe that the design of the future for Metro deployments is to run MPLS at the edge devices, and then Q in Q VLAN inside the Metro Ethernet rings. The key ideas here is abilty to creaetequivelent of virtual circuits of Ethernet. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 11:33 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device I think Jon is asking about the double VLAN -- or a q in q implementation It's extremely useful for creating virtual bridged customer networks -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:10 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device Virtual LAN. Imagine segregating segments of your
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
MPLS is atricky thing to define as MPLS has many components and features, depending on what features you want. The biggest benefit of MPLS is it is a labeling system. Each packet gets labeled with a class, and that class can include many variables (destination, source, packet type/port, customer name, a few others, etc). This label is integrated into the packet and follows it. What you do with that label data depends. MPLS also includes components for distributing instruvtion on how to handle the various classes to its neighbors and routers across the network, as well how to have that labeling survive differnt network types (ATM, EThernet, Sonet). MPLS also has a VPN tunnelling feature, most advantageous because its abilty to survive dissimilar networks. Many Believe Q in Q is a replacement for MPLS for local Metro Ethernet networks. VLANs are different in the sense that each packet may be tagged with a VLAN ID, but it also requires manual configuration of every switch that it crosses. So you physically map out the VLANs path via the Switch configuration. Or atleast, at what point the VLAN Switch stripps the tag and retags it. But this is defined per ethernet port across your network. One of the benefits of VLAN, is that it is widely supported by many many many in place devices. And there are just a few simple bits changed in the header of each packet at Layer 2. So it is VERY fast. ZERO degregation to delivery of packet thats getting tagged and untagged. You can now buy Layer2 managed (VLAN) 100 mbps 24 pot switches for $160. (SMC). MPLS is more involved because you now have to have more expensive routers and MPLS enabled devices. Its a big redesign to add MPLS. One of the reasons people only use it at the edge where it is most appropriate to use for large providers. A MPLS does nothing unless there is a router configured with a decission process on what to do with specific class packets. Its not just about the circuit ID. MPLS can forward it to a priority queue for example to control QOS. But what one learns is that Ethernet is also starting to get QOS features added, without MPLS required, and there are many third party solutions like Diff Serv that can be integrated with VLAns to get addequate results for one network design to deliver QOS. Mikrotik EoIP, not exactly sure. I know it has significantly more over head on the packet than VLAN, wasting bandwidth. BUt I'd like to learn more about what EoIP is. I think the most valuable technology of the three for WISPs depends on which ones get implemented into radios. We gain ease and power, when the features are added to the radios. One of the things that gives MPLS a disadvantage is that there is not a good reliable open source version of it yet. VLAN is solid on OPEN source. You want a technology that works on your routers and your radios both. MPLS is more complex and needs more processing power and code than just VLAN so less likely to be added to radio firmwares. I am no way dismissing MPLS, I'm just saying committing to MPLS may mean commiting to name brand routers and such. MPLS is more powerful and ideal in many ways, but if you do not require all the features you can accomplish many of the things using alternate solutions that can be delivered today. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 3:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Thanks to all for the double VLAN explanation. That makes perfect sense to me now. Can anyone describe any functional and/or technical differences between VLANs and say MPLS or Mikrotik's EoIP? It sounds to me like all three are functional equivalents of each other. Please correct me if this is an incorrect assumption. I have Googled it so spare me the obvious. I want to hear your thoughts. Thanks, Scriv Eric Rogers wrote: It is also referred as 802.1q tagging... If it supports multiple layers, you can have a customer VLAN tags within your network VLAN tags. Just need your equipment that takes off your tags before it gets to the customer. ATT uses the Cisco 3750 switches to do it at the customer's premises. Then the customer can have VLAN 10 at one location and VLAN 10 at another, and it is completely transparent to the end user. If that made sense. Eric -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 11:34 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device Google (or Cisco) is your friend http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/sw/iosswrel/ps5207/products_feature_ guid e09186a00801f0f4a.html -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Is the AirMAtrix stuff you are specifying, are you referring to their MESH implemetation, or is that also different? Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jeffrey Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 3:02 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device AirmatrixOS is not starOS and does offer vlans. Its its own web based OS. You can order their stuff with starOS, but that's really only specific custoemrs that order it anymore. - Jeff On 6/8/06 10:03 PM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Airmatrix does VLAN but its uses StarOS, so it does VLAN the wrong way for some one trying to sell to carriers. If you sell to a carrier, they are going towant to be delivered a minimum of 1500 MTU. StarOS can't do that with VLAN. However, if you didn;t need VLAN, Defacto does give EXCELLENT support. And they ship ONTIME. They aren't the cheapest, but they give the value you are looking for. Mikrotik is the preferred solution if you need to do VLAN. Wisp-Router also offers support. He's been in business now for atleast 10 years. He may charge you by the minute, but not at a rate any higher than Cisco would charge you. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I could be missing the product you are suggesting, but the only dual radio products I can find our base station products. I not looking for a base station, I am looking for something client facing. Further, I see no mention of VLAN support. -Matt jeffrey thomas wrote: Airmatrix can do that. www.defactowireless.com On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 13:17:30 -0400, Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Jeff, Yes that is yet another clever way to use Q in Q VLANs. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Jeffrey Thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 3:06 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Lets say you are using vlans to not only segment traffic, but priortize traffic as well. So a double tagged vlan, would give you the ability to create A vlan for segmentation and a VLAN within that vlan for priortization, for additional segmentation as well. I could be wrong though. - Jeff On 6/9/06 7:50 AM, Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 9 Jun 2006, John Scrivner wrote: Can you or someone explain what double VLAN is? I have never heard of such a thing. How can it be used to help us? Not having read the entire thread, I'm assuming the term double VLAN refers to the ability to create a VLAN (or many) that each have VLANs inside them. There are some places where this may be needed, but it can get to be an extremely complex network. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: layer 2 transport (was Re: [WISPA] looking for a device)
VLAN's aren't implemented using (R)STP. (R)STP is just used to prevent layer2 loops where as VLAN's are used to separate traffic at layer 2 into separate broadcast domains. VLAN's are layer 2 so you need a flat network to implement them which means there are scalability issues. Because they are layer 2 it means the traffic is switched instead of routed which is normally quicker as a switched network is normally done in hardware (ASICs). EoIP will create a layer 2 topology over a routed network which means you can implement a flat vlan network across the public internet if you wanted however it adds overhead to each packet as the traffic is tunneled which effects the available bandwidth. It is also slower than VLAN's as it's not true layer2. MPLS is designed to switch traffic quickly through the use of a label or shim instead of routing based on IP address. It offers speed, scalability and functionality and has built-in support for multicast, QoS, VPN's, many routing protocols such as BGP and OSPF. Each have there place but it depends on the application and scale of the project. Cheers, P. www.skyline-networks.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: 09 June 2006 21:18 To: WISPA General List Subject: layer 2 transport (was Re: [WISPA] looking for a device) John Scrivner wrote: Can anyone describe any functional and/or technical differences between VLANs and say MPLS or Mikrotik's EoIP? It sounds to me like all three are functional equivalents of each other. Please correct me if this is an incorrect assumption. I have Googled it so spare me the obvious. I want to hear your thoughts. Thanks, Scriv VLANs are implemented using (R)STP and they were generally described earlier. (R)STP is a broadcast protocol that allows multiple layer 2 devices to among other things be connected redundantly without causing loops. Thus, you can create a rather large and complex network where individual layer 2 networks share infrastructure, but are separated from each other. This is used by some carriers to sell layer 2 transport, which is basically a single VLAN that is trunked across the network. VLANs are not an ideal way to deal with layer 2 transport for several reasons. First, STP is very slow to deal with link state changes. Worse, STP networks get slower the larger they are. RSTP fixes some of these issues with STP, but convergence time is still too slow for most applications. Next, VLANs must be properly configured across the all devices that might be involved in the circuits delivery. Failure to properly configure the VLANs can result in your entire network failing as the links are saturated with (R)STP broadcasts. Finally, there is a finite limit on the number of VLANs you can have on any given Ethernet network. MPLS can provide layer 2 transport just like VLANs, but without all the above problems. However, MPLS is not limited to layer 2 transport. MPLS allows for transport of many protocols from Ethernet to ATM to IP. Further, MPLS TE allows for enforcement of SLAs in regards to latency, jitter, and QoS. Most interestingly though, MPLS rides on top of an IP network allowing all the benefits of a redundant IP network including sub-second convergence. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/359 - Release Date: 08/06/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/360 - Release Date: 09/06/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Can you or someone explain what double VLAN is? I have never heard of such a thing. How can it be used to help us? Thanks, Scriv Yo may want to look at Alvarion. Alvarion does support VLAN. new Firmware4 supports double VLAN also. Alvarion used to have one model that was designed to have a second integrated radio into it. I can't remember if it was a 900/2.4 combo, or a 5.8/2.4 combo. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
Virtual LAN. Imagine segregating segments of your network across a backhaul pipe so that they flow together but don't actually see each other. Managed switches have the ability to create VLANs per port. Think of it as a merger between routing and switching. Its a pipe or several inside a pipe. Tried to be simple here, I'm sure someone else can give you a more technical description. Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Office 260-307-4000 Cell 260-918-4340 VoIP www.oibw.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Can you or someone explain what double VLAN is? I have never heard of such a thing. How can it be used to help us? Thanks, Scriv Yo may want to look at Alvarion. Alvarion does support VLAN. new Firmware4 supports double VLAN also. Alvarion used to have one model that was designed to have a second integrated radio into it. I can't remember if it was a 900/2.4 combo, or a 5.8/2.4 combo. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
I understand VLAN. I have just never heard of double VLAN before. Thanks for the well written explanation of VLAN though. You did a nice job! :-) Scriv Rick Harnish wrote: Virtual LAN. Imagine segregating segments of your network across a backhaul pipe so that they flow together but don't actually see each other. Managed switches have the ability to create VLANs per port. Think of it as a merger between routing and switching. Its a pipe or several inside a pipe. Tried to be simple here, I'm sure someone else can give you a more technical description. Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Office 260-307-4000 Cell 260-918-4340 VoIP www.oibw.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Can you or someone explain what double VLAN is? I have never heard of such a thing. How can it be used to help us? Thanks, Scriv Yo may want to look at Alvarion. Alvarion does support VLAN. new Firmware4 supports double VLAN also. Alvarion used to have one model that was designed to have a second integrated radio into it. I can't remember if it was a 900/2.4 combo, or a 5.8/2.4 combo. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
QinQ? -Matt John Scrivner wrote: Can you or someone explain what double VLAN is? I have never heard of such a thing. How can it be used to help us? Thanks, Scriv Yo may want to look at Alvarion. Alvarion does support VLAN. new Firmware4 supports double VLAN also. Alvarion used to have one model that was designed to have a second integrated radio into it. I can't remember if it was a 900/2.4 combo, or a 5.8/2.4 combo. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
I think Jon is asking about the double VLAN -- or a q in q implementation It's extremely useful for creating virtual bridged customer networks -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:10 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device Virtual LAN. Imagine segregating segments of your network across a backhaul pipe so that they flow together but don't actually see each other. Managed switches have the ability to create VLANs per port. Think of it as a merger between routing and switching. Its a pipe or several inside a pipe. Tried to be simple here, I'm sure someone else can give you a more technical description. Rick Harnish President OnlyInternet Broadband Wireless, Inc. 260-827-2482 Office 260-307-4000 Cell 260-918-4340 VoIP www.oibw.net [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 9:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Can you or someone explain what double VLAN is? I have never heard of such a thing. How can it be used to help us? Thanks, Scriv Yo may want to look at Alvarion. Alvarion does support VLAN. new Firmware4 supports double VLAN also. Alvarion used to have one model that was designed to have a second integrated radio into it. I can't remember if it was a 900/2.4 combo, or a 5.8/2.4 combo. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
It is also referred as 802.1q tagging... If it supports multiple layers, you can have a customer VLAN tags within your network VLAN tags. Just need your equipment that takes off your tags before it gets to the customer. ATT uses the Cisco 3750 switches to do it at the customer's premises. Then the customer can have VLAN 10 at one location and VLAN 10 at another, and it is completely transparent to the end user. If that made sense. Eric -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 11:34 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device Google (or Cisco) is your friend http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/sw/iosswrel/ps5207/products_feature_ guid e09186a00801f0f4a.html -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 8:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Can you or someone explain what double VLAN is? I have never heard of such a thing. How can it be used to help us? Thanks, Scriv Yo may want to look at Alvarion. Alvarion does support VLAN. new Firmware4 supports double VLAN also. Alvarion used to have one model that was designed to have a second integrated radio into it. I can't remember if it was a 900/2.4 combo, or a 5.8/2.4 combo. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
MikroTik supports this, correct? Best, Brad -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Rogers Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 11:52 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device It is also referred as 802.1q tagging... If it supports multiple layers, you can have a customer VLAN tags within your network VLAN tags. Just need your equipment that takes off your tags before it gets to the customer. ATT uses the Cisco 3750 switches to do it at the customer's premises. Then the customer can have VLAN 10 at one location and VLAN 10 at another, and it is completely transparent to the end user. If that made sense. Eric -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 11:34 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device Google (or Cisco) is your friend http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/sw/iosswrel/ps5207/products_feature_ guid e09186a00801f0f4a.html -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 8:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Can you or someone explain what double VLAN is? I have never heard of such a thing. How can it be used to help us? Thanks, Scriv Yo may want to look at Alvarion. Alvarion does support VLAN. new Firmware4 supports double VLAN also. Alvarion used to have one model that was designed to have a second integrated radio into it. I can't remember if it was a 900/2.4 combo, or a 5.8/2.4 combo. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Thanks to all for the double VLAN explanation. That makes perfect sense to me now. Can anyone describe any functional and/or technical differences between VLANs and say MPLS or Mikrotik's EoIP? It sounds to me like all three are functional equivalents of each other. Please correct me if this is an incorrect assumption. I have Googled it so spare me the obvious. I want to hear your thoughts. Thanks, Scriv Eric Rogers wrote: It is also referred as 802.1q tagging... If it supports multiple layers, you can have a customer VLAN tags within your network VLAN tags. Just need your equipment that takes off your tags before it gets to the customer. ATT uses the Cisco 3750 switches to do it at the customer's premises. Then the customer can have VLAN 10 at one location and VLAN 10 at another, and it is completely transparent to the end user. If that made sense. Eric -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Charles Wu Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 11:34 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device Google (or Cisco) is your friend http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/sw/iosswrel/ps5207/products_feature_ guid e09186a00801f0f4a.html -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Scrivner Sent: Friday, June 09, 2006 8:39 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Can you or someone explain what double VLAN is? I have never heard of such a thing. How can it be used to help us? Thanks, Scriv Yo may want to look at Alvarion. Alvarion does support VLAN. new Firmware4 supports double VLAN also. Alvarion used to have one model that was designed to have a second integrated radio into it. I can't remember if it was a 900/2.4 combo, or a 5.8/2.4 combo. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
John Scrivner wrote: Can anyone describe any functional and/or technical differences between VLANs and say MPLS or Mikrotik's EoIP? It sounds to me like all three are functional equivalents of each other. Please correct me if this is an incorrect assumption. I have Googled it so spare me the obvious. I want to hear your thoughts. Quick dummified and (probably) wrong synopsis: VLANs generally will only work on the same network segment, and the VLAN tags would have to be recreated if you cross a router. Think of it as a way to turn one big switch into several little switches, and a fancy way to interconnect different switches. MPLS circumvents the segment boundary limits, but every router along the way has to support it. EOIP basically creates a VPN-like tunnel between two points. They're all conceptually related, in that they're different ways to try to make two remote locations transparently appear to be part of the same network domain, but they solve different problems in different ways. David Smith MVN.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
layer 2 transport (was Re: [WISPA] looking for a device)
John Scrivner wrote: Can anyone describe any functional and/or technical differences between VLANs and say MPLS or Mikrotik's EoIP? It sounds to me like all three are functional equivalents of each other. Please correct me if this is an incorrect assumption. I have Googled it so spare me the obvious. I want to hear your thoughts. Thanks, Scriv VLANs are implemented using (R)STP and they were generally described earlier. (R)STP is a broadcast protocol that allows multiple layer 2 devices to among other things be connected redundantly without causing loops. Thus, you can create a rather large and complex network where individual layer 2 networks share infrastructure, but are separated from each other. This is used by some carriers to sell layer 2 transport, which is basically a single VLAN that is trunked across the network. VLANs are not an ideal way to deal with layer 2 transport for several reasons. First, STP is very slow to deal with link state changes. Worse, STP networks get slower the larger they are. RSTP fixes some of these issues with STP, but convergence time is still too slow for most applications. Next, VLANs must be properly configured across the all devices that might be involved in the circuits delivery. Failure to properly configure the VLANs can result in your entire network failing as the links are saturated with (R)STP broadcasts. Finally, there is a finite limit on the number of VLANs you can have on any given Ethernet network. MPLS can provide layer 2 transport just like VLANs, but without all the above problems. However, MPLS is not limited to layer 2 transport. MPLS allows for transport of many protocols from Ethernet to ATM to IP. Further, MPLS TE allows for enforcement of SLAs in regards to latency, jitter, and QoS. Most interestingly though, MPLS rides on top of an IP network allowing all the benefits of a redundant IP network including sub-second convergence. -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
uhh, mikrotik w/SR2, SR5, 5 gig antenna for backhaul and 2.4 omni on the other... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:18 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] looking for a device I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Airmatrix can do that. www.defactowireless.com On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 13:17:30 -0400, Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Fyi everyone, wrap boards have been discontinued On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:45:00 -0500, Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
I could be missing the product you are suggesting, but the only dual radio products I can find our base station products. I not looking for a base station, I am looking for something client facing. Further, I see no mention of VLAN support. -Matt jeffrey thomas wrote: Airmatrix can do that. www.defactowireless.com On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 13:17:30 -0400, Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Lonnie sells his war in a rootenna waiting to go. Support is offered via the online forums. George Matt Liotta wrote: I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
I have to take that back. I'm not so sure they are already assembled and ready to go. They might fall under some assembly required Maybe Lonnie can tell us. George George Rogato wrote: Lonnie sells his war in a rootenna waiting to go. Support is offered via the online forums. George Matt Liotta wrote: I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
I would expect the devices to cost somewhere between $300 and $600 each. As far as support goes, I would expect it to be similar to other low cost radio vendors like Trango, etc. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: What are you willing to pay and what are your support requirements? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Discontinued by Wisp-Router.com or all vendors? There's no mention of this on http://www.pcengines.ch Where did you hear this? I recall hearing that the chipset used on the current WRAP platform has been discontinued but to my knowledge, there is a replacement chipset available which will be used on future batches of WRAP boards. Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $39.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: jeffrey thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Fyi everyone, wrap boards have been discontinued On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:45:00 -0500, Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
SkyPilot ahs a product like this but not at for those prices. Their dualband extender has a 2.4 b/g access point with a 5.8 mesh backhaul system. Jory Privett WCCS - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:28 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I would expect the devices to cost somewhere between $300 and $600 each. As far as support goes, I would expect it to be similar to other low cost radio vendors like Trango, etc. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: What are you willing to pay and what are your support requirements? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
Hi Matt, To throw in a dose of realism -- even if you roll your own Mikrotik solution - it will most likely cost you more than the $300-600 / unit budget that you have (and you get ZERO support =) Example RB532A: $185 SR5: $105 SR2: $105 All that is is a board and 2 radio cards -- then you still need to add in pigtails / poe / enclosures / stand-offs / antennas / PITA factor / etc Then you got to figure out how to make it work =) For a complete, supported w/ manuals/etc, FCC CERTIFIED system -- you will probably be in the $1k+ / unit ballpark (or $3k+ if you go Strix, Tropos, Firetide, Skypilot, etc) -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I would expect the devices to cost somewhere between $300 and $600 each. As far as support goes, I would expect it to be similar to other low cost radio vendors like Trango, etc. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: What are you willing to pay and what are your support requirements? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Some assembly required. We do not put the antenna pieces together since the user would have to take them apart to attach the cat5. Lonnie On 6/8/06, George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have to take that back. I'm not so sure they are already assembled and ready to go. They might fall under some assembly required Maybe Lonnie can tell us. George George Rogato wrote: Lonnie sells his war in a rootenna waiting to go. Support is offered via the online forums. George Matt Liotta wrote: I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- Lonnie Nunweiler Valemount Networks Corporation http://www.star-os.com/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
I don't think i am unrealistic. We built a platform from off-the-shelf parts that meets our requirements for under $500. How well that will work outside of our lab coupled with the time it took to build tells us we want nothing to do with building our own. I am aware of what mesh products companies like Tropos offer since we deploy Tropos networks ourselves. However, they don't meet our requirements in some cases and in other cases are overkill for what we need. Ultimately, I willing to pay more than $600 for the unit if it makes sense. I just threw out what I was looking to pay. -Matt Charles Wu wrote: Hi Matt, To throw in a dose of realism -- even if you roll your own Mikrotik solution - it will most likely cost you more than the $300-600 / unit budget that you have (and you get ZERO support =) Example RB532A: $185 SR5: $105 SR2: $105 All that is is a board and 2 radio cards -- then you still need to add in pigtails / poe / enclosures / stand-offs / antennas / PITA factor / etc Then you got to figure out how to make it work =) For a complete, supported w/ manuals/etc, FCC CERTIFIED system -- you will probably be in the $1k+ / unit ballpark (or $3k+ if you go Strix, Tropos, Firetide, Skypilot, etc) -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I would expect the devices to cost somewhere between $300 and $600 each. As far as support goes, I would expect it to be similar to other low cost radio vendors like Trango, etc. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: What are you willing to pay and what are your support requirements? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Matt, The airmatrix flex can do what you require, i think list on them is around 350 or so but that price is coming down to around 250.00. An additional card shouldnt be too much more per side. - Jeff On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 15:19:35 -0400, Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I don't think i am unrealistic. We built a platform from off-the-shelf parts that meets our requirements for under $500. How well that will work outside of our lab coupled with the time it took to build tells us we want nothing to do with building our own. I am aware of what mesh products companies like Tropos offer since we deploy Tropos networks ourselves. However, they don't meet our requirements in some cases and in other cases are overkill for what we need. Ultimately, I willing to pay more than $600 for the unit if it makes sense. I just threw out what I was looking to pay. -Matt Charles Wu wrote: Hi Matt, To throw in a dose of realism -- even if you roll your own Mikrotik solution - it will most likely cost you more than the $300-600 / unit budget that you have (and you get ZERO support =) Example RB532A: $185 SR5: $105 SR2: $105 All that is is a board and 2 radio cards -- then you still need to add in pigtails / poe / enclosures / stand-offs / antennas / PITA factor / etc Then you got to figure out how to make it work =) For a complete, supported w/ manuals/etc, FCC CERTIFIED system -- you will probably be in the $1k+ / unit ballpark (or $3k+ if you go Strix, Tropos, Firetide, Skypilot, etc) -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I would expect the devices to cost somewhere between $300 and $600 each. As far as support goes, I would expect it to be similar to other low cost radio vendors like Trango, etc. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: What are you willing to pay and what are your support requirements? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
my understanding is that the whole board is being disconinued. We were notified of this ( as in pcengines is no longer taking orders ) about 2 weeks ago. I would need to clarify this with david peterson but I am pretty sure that is the case. - Jeff On Thu, 8 Jun 2006 14:46:09 -0400, KyWiFi LLC [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Discontinued by Wisp-Router.com or all vendors? There's no mention of this on http://www.pcengines.ch Where did you hear this? I recall hearing that the chipset used on the current WRAP platform has been discontinued but to my knowledge, there is a replacement chipset available which will be used on future batches of WRAP boards. Shannon D. Denniston, Co-Founder KyWiFi, LLC - Mt. Sterling, Kentucky Your Hometown Broadband Provider http://www.KyWiFi.com Call Us Today: 859.274.4033 === $39.99 DSL High Speed Internet $14.99 Home Phone Service - No Phone Line Required for DSL - FREE Activation Equipment - Affordable Upfront Pricing - Locally Owned Operated - We Also Service Most Rural Areas === - Original Message - From: jeffrey thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Fyi everyone, wrap boards have been discontinued On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 12:45:00 -0500, Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
snip I don't think i am unrealistic. We built a platform from off-the-shelf parts that meets our requirements for under $500. How well that will work outside of our lab coupled with the time it took to build tells us we want nothing to do with building our own. /snip EXACTLY The bits and pieces will definitely fit in your budget (in this case, $500), but keep in mind, integration, development, support etc adds a lot to the top line Remember, most manufacturers are selling products at 40-60% gross margin -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 2:20 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device -Matt Charles Wu wrote: Hi Matt, To throw in a dose of realism -- even if you roll your own Mikrotik solution - it will most likely cost you more than the $300-600 / unit budget that you have (and you get ZERO support =) Example RB532A: $185 SR5: $105 SR2: $105 All that is is a board and 2 radio cards -- then you still need to add in pigtails / poe / enclosures / stand-offs / antennas / PITA factor / etc Then you got to figure out how to make it work =) For a complete, supported w/ manuals/etc, FCC CERTIFIED system -- you will probably be in the $1k+ / unit ballpark (or $3k+ if you go Strix, Tropos, Firetide, Skypilot, etc) -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I would expect the devices to cost somewhere between $300 and $600 each. As far as support goes, I would expect it to be similar to other low cost radio vendors like Trango, etc. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: What are you willing to pay and what are your support requirements? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Charles Wu wrote: The bits and pieces will definitely fit in your budget (in this case, $500), but keep in mind, integration, development, support etc adds a lot to the top line Remember, most manufacturers are selling products at 40-60% gross margin Well sure, but if a manufacturer can't build a product in volume for significantly less than I can one-off than the manufacturer might be in the wrong business. If you take 25% off the $500 for cost savings and then mark it up 60% for margin you come out with $600. ;) -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
I don't think there is much out there unfortunately But YOU CAN BUY FROM MIKROTIK direct, prebuilt units www.mikrotik.com click on prices/products Dan Metcalf Wireless Broadband Systems www.wbisp.com 781-566-2053 ext 6201 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783 [EMAIL PROTECTED] support: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:54 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/358 - Release Date: 06/07/2006 -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/358 - Release Date: 06/07/2006 -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Not all WRAP boards are discontinued. 233 Mhz versions will continue production for some time yet. North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061 personal correspondence to: mark at neofast dot net sales inquiries to: purchasing at neofast dot net Fast Internet, NO WIRES! - - Original Message - From: jeffrey thomas [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org; WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 10:55 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Fyi everyone, wrap boards have been discontinued -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Sounds like Mikrotik to me. We do that all the time. Take note, to get standard bridge features across an 802.11 client, it requires WDS. Mikrotik allows for large packets so that VLANs can be configured over WDS. The configuration is a bit encumbersome at first, but we got it down to a pretty good configuration now. There are a couple rules to follow to get the configuration to work right. We no longer use VLAN switches for small buildings anymore, we use Mikrotik VLAN instead. How far you can backhaul, is going to be an antenna selection issue. Remember with a 32 dbi dish and -2 db power, its legal to get about 7 miles with good fade margin. (can pull off 11 with little fade margin) Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:17 PM Subject: [WISPA] looking for a device I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
NOte, Star OS handles VLAN correctly as far as automatically reducing MTU size. But that can be a problem for ISPs that want to deliver full 1500 MTU to the end user as standard. MIkrotik does not have that limitation. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Sam Tetherow [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:22 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
There are people that build them for you. MIkrotik sells pre-made systems. WISP-Router I thought also did, but not possitive. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Airmatrix does VLAN but its uses StarOS, so it does VLAN the wrong way for some one trying to sell to carriers. If you sell to a carrier, they are going towant to be delivered a minimum of 1500 MTU. StarOS can't do that with VLAN. However, if you didn;t need VLAN, Defacto does give EXCELLENT support. And they ship ONTIME. They aren't the cheapest, but they give the value you are looking for. Mikrotik is the preferred solution if you need to do VLAN. Wisp-Router also offers support. He's been in business now for atleast 10 years. He may charge you by the minute, but not at a rate any higher than Cisco would charge you. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 2:00 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I could be missing the product you are suggesting, but the only dual radio products I can find our base station products. I not looking for a base station, I am looking for something client facing. Further, I see no mention of VLAN support. -Matt jeffrey thomas wrote: Airmatrix can do that. www.defactowireless.com On Thu, 08 Jun 2006 13:17:30 -0400, Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] looking for a device
Charles, Although your advise does bringrealism to the debate I think you are leaving out VLAN requirement in your view. Mikrotik, gives the VLAN functuionality that is needed. That is worth money. Mikrotik gives the flexibilty of dual radio configs. I'm not even sure the expensive name brand mesh units you quoted support VLAN. Do they? Yo may want to look at Alvarion. Alvarion does support VLAN. new Firmware4 supports double VLAN also. Alvarion used to have one model that was designed to have a second integrated radio into it. I can't remember if it was a 900/2.4 combo, or a 5.8/2.4 combo. From a support perspective you can't get any better than Alvarion. But the price was much higher, in the $2000 range I thought. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 3:06 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] looking for a device Hi Matt, To throw in a dose of realism -- even if you roll your own Mikrotik solution - it will most likely cost you more than the $300-600 / unit budget that you have (and you get ZERO support =) Example RB532A: $185 SR5: $105 SR2: $105 All that is is a board and 2 radio cards -- then you still need to add in pigtails / poe / enclosures / stand-offs / antennas / PITA factor / etc Then you got to figure out how to make it work =) For a complete, supported w/ manuals/etc, FCC CERTIFIED system -- you will probably be in the $1k+ / unit ballpark (or $3k+ if you go Strix, Tropos, Firetide, Skypilot, etc) -Charles --- CWLab Technology Architects http://www.cwlab.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Liotta Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:28 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I would expect the devices to cost somewhere between $300 and $600 each. As far as support goes, I would expect it to be similar to other low cost radio vendors like Trango, etc. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: What are you willing to pay and what are your support requirements? Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I understand you are suggesting I wouldn't have to psychically build the devices, but that isn't what I am worried about. I want an off-the-shelf product that is supported by a vendor. That includes it being pre-built, software installed, and support available. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: If you order it all from wisp-router they will assemble it for your so you would get a die-cast case with the RB mounted the radios and pigtails installed. All you would need to do is set up the software end of things, which could be done with a script once you have the initial setup done. One thing to note, I have not ordered 5Ghz pigtails from wisp-router in quite sometime, but the last time I did order them, their quality was questionable. I would bet if you went the WRAP/StarOS route wisp-router would do the same. No idea on other vendors or the WAR boards as I have never ordered them. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] looking for a device
Get with Jim Patient as well - www.jeffcosoho.com He can build them for you more then likely at a savings to WISP-Router could. Jim makes some great ready to go products and he's a super nice guy :) JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 11:59 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device There are people that build them for you. MIkrotik sells pre-made systems. WISP-Router I thought also did, but not possitive. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Thursday, June 08, 2006 1:33 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] looking for a device I am looking for a device I can buy that does all of this out of the box. I don't want to build my own since I need 30-40 of them in the next 30 days. -Matt Sam Tetherow wrote: Mikrotik on a routerboard 532 should do the trick although I haven't messed with the VLAN stuff. I am not a StarOS user, but I would bet that a StarOS setup on either a WRAP or WAR board would work as well. Sam Tetherow Sandhills Wireless Matt Liotta wrote: I am looking for a device with the following requirements: * Can backhaul at 11Mbps operating in the 5.2Ghz band * Can support VLANs * Can assign a VLAN to one Ethernet port * Powered by PoE (the standard is not required) * Can act as a 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi access point assigned to a different VLAN than the Ethernet port * Everything in a single outdoor enclosure Any ideas? -Matt -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
