RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-25 Thread Brad Larson
Jon, When it's WiMAX they'll be using OFDM and their current older
modulation techniques will be out the window...reliable pipes are being sold
every day on BreezeAccess VL with and without voip. Brad

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Hey Brad, VOIP may be the only thing canopy is lagging in. I'm curious 
if they'll improve that in the version 8 software release or at least 
when they move toward WIMAX compatibility. In the mean time I'm more 
concerned with providing reliable pipes...

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Brad Larson wrote:

Jon, Canopy is not fast enough for many now and voip performance is
lacking.
Depending on the circumstance you may be right for many but the times are
changing very quickly. There are more and more projects hitting the streets
where you don't even make the cut if you can't pass the higher data traffic
or support more than 25 voip calls per sector. Brad

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's
class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will
likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage.
As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to
solve...

  

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-25 Thread Tom DeReggi

Travis,

That is a very good point.  And one of the reasons that I'm trying so hard 
to stick with Trango.
Using something else other than Trango for me, is almost like cheating on my 
wife.

But there is a slight difference in modifying each of the two.

Modifing a Trango unit, also may infringe on patent rights with the 
manufacturer, or cause unrealised RF emmissions that would cause a radio to 
fail FCC tests. There are also risks involved in damaging the radio due to 
more detailed soldering, compromising things like field repairabilty.


A StarOS system is likely a certifiable system, if it is decided to in the 
future to go through the beaurocracy of the certification process.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links



Tom,

You won't customize a Fox unit because it's not FCC compliant, yet you are 
running StarOS on WAR boards which is also not FCC compliant. ;)


Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:

The answer to your question is that there is not a preferred option.  In 
some cases I don't have an option and just lose the prospect (as 
unservable).  The industry is in a stagnet state, where manufacturers are 
not delivering an ideal product that WISPs need. (At least that I want). 
Any product that I choose as an alternative has a trade off.  Understand 
that there are also cost justification barriers not just technical.  When 
I can keep the prospect, its often because I have cost justified 
installing a dedicated PTP for them. (I don;t have that option for every 
one based on lease fees for roof access and available spectrum).  Trying 
to customize the FOX for external antenna is a major pain in the neck, 
not to mention illegal, or Non-FCC compliant.  However, out of 
desperation, I have on occassion been able to successfully customize a 
FOX 5580, to use an ext connector, and paired it up with a MTI dual Pol 
antenna or Gabriel Dual Pol.
The fun in this industry goes away, when the only way to get the job 
done, is to illegally hack a CPE, for jobs.  Its not my job to be the 
manufacturer.


The good news is that manufacturers are comming closer and closer to 
offering equivellent value propositions.
The most promising products of Fall 2006, I feel is StarOS V3 on WAR, 
because of their low cost, and recent addition of true Bridging and Large 
MTU for adequate VLAN support.
I also think, Alvarion has a winner with its new V4 firmware products, 
but I need to improve my finance options, to be able to use Alvarion 
network wide.


What I'd rather have happen, is Trango fix the problem. It would only 
cost them a few thousand to fix the problem on their end, and will cost 
me a million to rebuild my network (which isn't going to happen).


Thats the problem... What do you do when the product line you want fixed, 
is still the best choice in many cases overall ? There is no leverage to 
effect change.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Gino A. Villarini 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links



Tom, so what you are changing the Trangos to ?

Also, you can hack yourself a EXT Fox ...

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 
5830-ext

in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business.  The
reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to
deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD
unless ARQ is available, in these situations.  It makes it worse with 
all

the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time,
until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of
course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used
reliably.  One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and 
learned
that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy 
load.
I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, 
and
it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of 
weeks

that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high
volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used 
most
recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two 
minutes
of downtime

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Brian Rohrbacher

Would GPS'd Canopy help?  If not, why?  Do others in the area use Canopy?

Brian

Tom DeReggi wrote:

Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 
5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my 
business.  The reason, is that its a high noise environment where 
we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet 
loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations.  
It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t 
know its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I 
hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for 
the 5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably.  One of the big mistakes 
I made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU 
radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing 
of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared 
to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I 
thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high 
volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used 
most recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing 
two minutes of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU 
large office T1s and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, 
than to get my reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber 
ends up cancelling and complaining about.  Evey T1 that gets cancelled 
means there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they 
make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that 
give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about 
the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown 
away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware.


What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna 
side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on 
SU side. Without ARQ one is toast.


Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 
Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext 
any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT 
connectors. Last year,  I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 
5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we still 
don't have it, and its not on their priority list.  That is 
frustrating for my business.  Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 
markets.  When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a 
couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed their 
order with someone else.


What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango 
APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that 
can deliver packetlossless links.  Even Wifi gear can offer 
packetlossless links.  And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate 
my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so I 
can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the 
roofs.  Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if Trango 
added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext.


I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its 
product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing sales and 
getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango does not have a 
EXT antenna product line that delivers reliable ARQ.  I haven't bought 
a new Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many pulls on the shelf 
waiting, when I need one.  If Trango never released ARQ for the FOX, I 
would have never kown what I was missing. But now that I have 
experienced it, I can't live without it.


The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) 
Waiting for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through.  I 
can't count how much money I burned just waiting.  I don't want to 
wait any more. I'm tired of waiting. I don't have the energy to keep 
waiting. I want it now.  I need it now.  This is a time to market 
business, where there is a domino effect of disaster tied to waiting.


So when a company like Alvarion or Valemont come out with a product 
that will do the job, and I no longer have to wait, I see no reason to 
wait.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links



Tom,

I hate to say this, but I think you missed the boat on your three 
$500/mo subs. Trango still offers a 5830-EXT unit for $729 (retail) 
that would have allowed you the external antenna that was so critical 
for these links. Why did you not spend the $700 and have them paid 
for in less than two months?


Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:


I'm glad to hear that John found success with Alvarion.
However, his post does

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Tom DeReggi
The answer to your question is that there is not a preferred option.  In 
some cases I don't have an option and just lose the prospect (as 
unservable).  The industry is in a stagnet state, where manufacturers are 
not delivering an ideal product that WISPs need. (At least that I want). 
Any product that I choose as an alternative has a trade off.  Understand 
that there are also cost justification barriers not just technical.  When I 
can keep the prospect, its often because I have cost justified installing a 
dedicated PTP for them. (I don;t have that option for every one based on 
lease fees for roof access and available spectrum).  Trying to customize the 
FOX for external antenna is a major pain in the neck, not to mention 
illegal, or Non-FCC compliant.  However, out of desperation, I have on 
occassion been able to successfully customize a FOX 5580, to use an ext 
connector, and paired it up with a MTI dual Pol antenna or Gabriel Dual Pol.
The fun in this industry goes away, when the only way to get the job done, 
is to illegally hack a CPE, for jobs.  Its not my job to be the 
manufacturer.


The good news is that manufacturers are comming closer and closer to 
offering equivellent value propositions.
The most promising products of Fall 2006, I feel is StarOS V3 on WAR, 
because of their low cost, and recent addition of true Bridging and Large 
MTU for adequate VLAN support.
I also think, Alvarion has a winner with its new V4 firmware products, but I 
need to improve my finance options, to be able to use Alvarion network wide.


What I'd rather have happen, is Trango fix the problem. It would only cost 
them a few thousand to fix the problem on their end, and will cost me a 
million to rebuild my network (which isn't going to happen).


Thats the problem... What do you do when the product line you want fixed, is 
still the best choice in many cases overall ? There is no leverage to effect 
change.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Gino A. Villarini [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links



Tom, so what you are changing the Trangos to ?

Also, you can hack yourself a EXT Fox ...

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 
5830-ext

in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business.  The
reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to
deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD
unless ARQ is available, in these situations.  It makes it worse with all
the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time,
until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of
course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used
reliably.  One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and 
learned
that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy 
load.
I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, 
and

it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks
that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high
volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most
recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes
of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s 
and


VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation
tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and
complaining about.  Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU
property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a
trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that 
gets
scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that 
took


months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from 
buggy


ARQ firmware.

What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side
of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side.
Without ARQ one is toast.

Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes,
which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day
because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors.
Last year,  I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and 
Link-10s
more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not 
on


their priority list

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Travis Johnson

Tom,

You won't customize a Fox unit because it's not FCC compliant, yet you 
are running StarOS on WAR boards which is also not FCC compliant. ;)


Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:

The answer to your question is that there is not a preferred option.  
In some cases I don't have an option and just lose the prospect (as 
unservable).  The industry is in a stagnet state, where manufacturers 
are not delivering an ideal product that WISPs need. (At least that I 
want). Any product that I choose as an alternative has a trade off.  
Understand that there are also cost justification barriers not just 
technical.  When I can keep the prospect, its often because I have 
cost justified installing a dedicated PTP for them. (I don;t have that 
option for every one based on lease fees for roof access and available 
spectrum).  Trying to customize the FOX for external antenna is a 
major pain in the neck, not to mention illegal, or Non-FCC compliant.  
However, out of desperation, I have on occassion been able to 
successfully customize a FOX 5580, to use an ext connector, and paired 
it up with a MTI dual Pol antenna or Gabriel Dual Pol.
The fun in this industry goes away, when the only way to get the job 
done, is to illegally hack a CPE, for jobs.  Its not my job to be the 
manufacturer.


The good news is that manufacturers are comming closer and closer to 
offering equivellent value propositions.
The most promising products of Fall 2006, I feel is StarOS V3 on WAR, 
because of their low cost, and recent addition of true Bridging and 
Large MTU for adequate VLAN support.
I also think, Alvarion has a winner with its new V4 firmware products, 
but I need to improve my finance options, to be able to use Alvarion 
network wide.


What I'd rather have happen, is Trango fix the problem. It would only 
cost them a few thousand to fix the problem on their end, and will 
cost me a million to rebuild my network (which isn't going to happen).


Thats the problem... What do you do when the product line you want 
fixed, is still the best choice in many cases overall ? There is no 
leverage to effect change.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Gino A. Villarini 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:00 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links



Tom, so what you are changing the Trangos to ?

Also, you can hack yourself a EXT Fox ...

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 
5830-ext

in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business.  The
reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to
deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD
unless ARQ is available, in these situations.  It makes it worse with 
all

the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time,
until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of
course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used
reliably.  One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and 
learned
that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy 
load.
I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use 
links, and
it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of 
weeks

that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high
volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used 
most
recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two 
minutes
of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office 
T1s and


VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my 
reputation

tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and
complaining about.  Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU
property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a
trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) 
that gets
scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners 
that took


months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots 
from buggy


ARQ firmware.

What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna 
side

of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side.
Without ARQ one is toast.

Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes,
which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day
because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Tom DeReggi
As much as I've protested Canopy, (in my mind poor design), the smaller the 
gaps are getting.
The problem is that Trango kept degrading their gear more and more like 
Canopy. And Canopy kept improving their gear.

Trango still wins, because Trango is less expensive.
Canopy still has some of the traits that I also don't like about Trango 
(darn DSS dish antennas).


My goal is to gain the High Arpu business.  Who the winner will be is not a 
dying breed product, but the manufacturer that steps up to the plate to 
deliver a complete product.
I want to be done with half-assed antennas.   What I've learned is that the 
ANTENNA IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE RADIO.


Trango's strength had always been their internal antennas and options for 
good external ones.


On a side note, Does Canopy 5.8G CPEs have external connectors?

The truth is, I want the cheap CPE antenna option, for half my installs, 
cause it saves me money and thats all I need to do the job. I just don't 
want to give up the flexibilty to optimize reliabitly for the other 50%.


The other thing you forget is, I'd now rather fight it out, and stay put on 
the channel, doesn't mean that I will win.  With Trango, I still have the 
option to change my mind, when somebody beats me up, and I need to go run to 
another channel or polarity. Its always good to have a backup plan.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:24 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


snip
What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and
move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to
effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I
move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until
they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its
better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another
channel to play on.  And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the
antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is,
you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth.
The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other
player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering.  Alvarion gives that
advantage.
/snip

Tom,

Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking

-Charles

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Tom DeReggi
For the golden answer. GPS only helps you design your own network, and I 
already take care to use best practices for my own network, when its comming 
from myself.
Its all the other people that you have to worry about.   Do you think Public 
safety or department of transportation is using GPS sync for all their 
street pole omnis? Do you think all  the corporate end user PTP links being 
sold to them by clueless network integrators are GPS syncing? NOT!


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brian Rohrbacher [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links



Would GPS'd Canopy help?  If not, why?  Do others in the area use Canopy?

Brian

Tom DeReggi wrote:

Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 
5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my 
business.  The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're 
attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss 
solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations.  It 
makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know 
its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate 
contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 
5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably.  One of the big mistakes I made 
is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios every 
couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 
links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with 
only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something 
else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), they 
started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly fixed 
firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime for a 
reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and VOIP services. 
I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation tarnished by 
installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and complaining about. 
Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU property owner involved 
that got the word (they make the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer 
guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they 
learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took months to build 
get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ 
firmware.


What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna 
side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU 
side. Without ARQ one is toast.


Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, 
which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day 
because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. 
Last year,  I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and 
Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, 
and its not on their priority list.  That is frustrating for my business. 
Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 markets.  When the Link doesn't go up 
in a few days, or their were a couple of noise issues that scare them, 
they have already placed their order with someone else.


What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango APs, 
to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that can 
deliver packetlossless links.  Even Wifi gear can offer packetlossless 
links.  And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate my contracts with 
property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so I can get more 
antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the roofs.  Its a BIG 
waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if Trango added ARQ reliable 
ARQ to 5830-ext.


I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its 
product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing sales and 
getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango does not have a 
EXT antenna product line that delivers reliable ARQ.  I haven't bought a 
new Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many pulls on the shelf waiting, 
when I need one.  If Trango never released ARQ for the FOX, I would have 
never kown what I was missing. But now that I have experienced it, I 
can't live without it.


The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) 
Waiting for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through.  I 
can't count how much money I burned just waiting.  I don't want to wait 
any more. I'm tired of waiting. I don't have the energy to keep waiting. 
I want it now.  I need it now.  This is a time to market business, where 
there is a domino effect of disaster tied to waiting.


So when a company like Alvarion or Valemont come out with a product that 
will do the job, and I no longer have to wait

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Patrick Leary
My goal is to gain the High Arpu business.

Tom, that is exactly where Alvarion excels and why it is my opinion that
the more premium an operator becomes in the total quality of their
service, the more likely an operator is to choose Alvarion. And these
customers have different service level expectations that go far beyond
the speed. They require a reliable connection that they can essentially
forget about. Any connection that draws the attention of the end
customer is a bad connection, because something is happening that forces
them to deal with it. That is a distraction. That leads to a sense of
insecurity, which is something a high ARPU customer will not tolerate
over time.

So Alvarion radios are built and given feature sets that allow an
extreme level of customization (lots of depth in the VLAN abilities for
example) and reliability (both physical and in terms of link stability).
As well, as an operator you are able to pull a huge variety of
statistics to reduce trouble shooting time when you do have to trouble
shoot.

And on the basic level, the way our radios use the air means we scan
scale high ARPU customers better per sector than any other UL brand.
That is especially true is you are offering more than just high speed
Internet access such as VLANs and services like VoIP. 

It is plenty true that there have been numerous small WISPs that have
left Alvarion (something I am going to work hard to change), but I have
never met a SCALED operator that switch FROM Alvarion. I have met
countless though that have moved to us as they have reached the stage
where they need to become higher end providers. You are a prototypical
example of such a WISP. John's is such a case. Marty's Roadstar is one
of the most classic examples, having moved from 802.11b to Trango to
Alvarion. 

Now for sure we are not perfect and we have our share of quirks, but we
are out there still investing heavily (millions) in this unlicensed
market, including on the product front. And we are fiscally very healthy
and always have been. We are a horse a long term operator can tie his
cart to. And I cannot understate how important that is. Many companies
and all the huge telecom equipment providers (including Moto) are not
investing in fixed now hardly at all, much less unlicensed fixed. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243







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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Matt Liotta
I believe we have one of the highest APRUs in the business and we use 
Canopy (including Orthogon). We do like the Trango Atlas, but only for 
limited deployment.


I don't really think the price of the radio correlates to the revenue of 
the service.


-Matt

Tom DeReggi wrote:
As much as I've protested Canopy, (in my mind poor design), the 
smaller the gaps are getting.
The problem is that Trango kept degrading their gear more and more 
like Canopy. And Canopy kept improving their gear.

Trango still wins, because Trango is less expensive.
Canopy still has some of the traits that I also don't like about 
Trango (darn DSS dish antennas).


My goal is to gain the High Arpu business.  Who the winner will be is 
not a dying breed product, but the manufacturer that steps up to the 
plate to deliver a complete product.
I want to be done with half-assed antennas.   What I've learned is 
that the ANTENNA IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE RADIO.


Trango's strength had always been their internal antennas and options 
for good external ones.


On a side note, Does Canopy 5.8G CPEs have external connectors?

The truth is, I want the cheap CPE antenna option, for half my 
installs, cause it saves me money and thats all I need to do the job. 
I just don't want to give up the flexibilty to optimize reliabitly for 
the other 50%.


The other thing you forget is, I'd now rather fight it out, and stay 
put on the channel, doesn't mean that I will win.  With Trango, I 
still have the option to change my mind, when somebody beats me up, 
and I need to go run to another channel or polarity. Its always good 
to have a backup plan.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:24 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


snip
What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and
move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to
effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot 
noise, I

move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until
they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its
better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another
channel to play on.  And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the
antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important 
point is,
you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the 
beamwidth.

The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other
player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering.  Alvarion gives that
advantage.
/snip

Tom,

Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking

-Charles

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Jon Langeler

Charles Wu wrote:


snip
What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and 
move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to 
effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I 
move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until 
they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its 
better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another 
channel to play on.  And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the 
antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, 
you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. 
The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other 
player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering.  Alvarion gives that 
advantage.

/snip

Tom,

Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking

-Charles
 

That would damage his anti-motorola pride! Plus going with canopy would 
mean being 'in sync' with the competition and things would start 
working...just wouldn't be right! double ducking


--
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Michwave Tech.

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Jon Langeler

Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's 
class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will likely 
find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage. As for 
coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to solve...

--
Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.



Tom DeReggi wrote:

For the golden answer. GPS only helps you design your own network, and 
I already take care to use best practices for my own network, when its 
comming from myself.
Its all the other people that you have to worry about.   Do you think 
Public safety or department of transportation is using GPS sync for 
all their street pole omnis? Do you think all  the corporate end user 
PTP links being sold to them by clueless network integrators are GPS 
syncing? NOT!


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


Would GPS'd Canopy help?  If not, why?  Do others in the area use 
Canopy?


Brian

Tom DeReggi wrote:

Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 
5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my 
business.  The reason, is that its a high noise environment where 
we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet 
loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these 
situations.  It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, 
because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts 
transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta 
ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used 
reliably.  One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and 
learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when 
under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I 
started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only 
a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something 
else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), 
they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly 
fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime 
for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and 
VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my 
reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up 
cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means 
there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make 
the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give 
stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the 
failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown 
away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware.


What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the 
antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big 
antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast.


Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 
Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext 
any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and 
EXT connectors. Last year,  I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ 
on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we 
still don't have it, and its not on their priority list.  That is 
frustrating for my business. Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 
markets.  When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a 
couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed 
their order with someone else.


What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango 
APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that 
can deliver packetlossless links.  Even Wifi gear can offer 
packetlossless links.  And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate 
my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so 
I can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the 
roofs.  Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if 
Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext.


I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around 
its product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing 
sales and getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango 
does not have a EXT antenna product line that delivers reliable 
ARQ.  I haven't bought a new Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many 
pulls on the shelf waiting, when I need one.  If Trango never 
released ARQ for the FOX, I would have never kown what I was 
missing. But now that I have experienced it, I can't live without it.


The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) 
Waiting for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through.  
I can't count how much money I

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Brad Belton
This maybe so, but there will ALWAYS be another product available and
deployed alongside Canopy that does not sync.  It is also safe to assume
that not every Canopy operator will opt to sync knowingly or unknowingly.

Best,

Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 3:10 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's
class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will
likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage.
As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to
solve...

-- 
Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.



Tom DeReggi wrote:

 For the golden answer. GPS only helps you design your own network, and 
 I already take care to use best practices for my own network, when its 
 comming from myself.
 Its all the other people that you have to worry about.   Do you think 
 Public safety or department of transportation is using GPS sync for 
 all their street pole omnis? Do you think all  the corporate end user 
 PTP links being sold to them by clueless network integrators are GPS 
 syncing? NOT!

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:03 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


 Would GPS'd Canopy help?  If not, why?  Do others in the area use 
 Canopy?

 Brian

 Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 
 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my 
 business.  The reason, is that its a high noise environment where 
 we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet 
 loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these 
 situations.  It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, 
 because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts 
 transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta 
 ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used 
 reliably.  One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and 
 learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when 
 under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I 
 started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only 
 a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something 
 else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), 
 they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly 
 fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime 
 for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and 
 VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my 
 reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up 
 cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means 
 there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make 
 the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give 
 stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the 
 failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown 
 away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware.

 What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the 
 antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big 
 antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast.

 Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 
 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext 
 any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and 
 EXT connectors. Last year,  I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ 
 on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we 
 still don't have it, and its not on their priority list.  That is 
 frustrating for my business. Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 
 markets.  When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a 
 couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed 
 their order with someone else.

 What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango 
 APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that 
 can deliver packetlossless links.  Even Wifi gear can offer 
 packetlossless links.  And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate 
 my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so 
 I can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the 
 roofs.  Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if 
 Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext.

 I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around 
 its product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing 
 sales and getting more black eyes than

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Brad Larson
Jon, Canopy is not fast enough for many now and voip performance is lacking.
Depending on the circumstance you may be right for many but the times are
changing very quickly. There are more and more projects hitting the streets
where you don't even make the cut if you can't pass the higher data traffic
or support more than 25 voip calls per sector. Brad

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's
class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will
likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage.
As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to
solve...

-- 
Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.



Tom DeReggi wrote:

 For the golden answer. GPS only helps you design your own network, and 
 I already take care to use best practices for my own network, when its 
 comming from myself.
 Its all the other people that you have to worry about.   Do you think 
 Public safety or department of transportation is using GPS sync for 
 all their street pole omnis? Do you think all  the corporate end user 
 PTP links being sold to them by clueless network integrators are GPS 
 syncing? NOT!

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:03 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


 Would GPS'd Canopy help?  If not, why?  Do others in the area use 
 Canopy?

 Brian

 Tom DeReggi wrote:

 Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 
 5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my 
 business.  The reason, is that its a high noise environment where 
 we're attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet 
 loss solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these 
 situations.  It makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, 
 because you don;t know its there half the time, until its starts 
 transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of course, Beta 
 ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used 
 reliably.  One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and 
 learned that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when 
 under heavy load. I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I 
 started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be stable, with only 
 a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought was something 
 else. But after I installed it on the high volume links (other 6), 
 they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent supposedly 
 fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of downtime 
 for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and 
 VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my 
 reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up 
 cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means 
 there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make 
 the referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give 
 stamp of approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the 
 failure. Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown 
 away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware.

 What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the 
 antenna side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big 
 antenna on SU side. Without ARQ one is toast.

 Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 
 Foxes, which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext 
 any day because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and 
 EXT connectors. Last year,  I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ 
 on 5830-EXT and Link-10s more than anything, and a year later, we 
 still don't have it, and its not on their priority list.  That is 
 frustrating for my business. Customers don't wait in Urban Tier1 
 markets.  When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or their were a 
 couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already placed 
 their order with someone else.

 What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango 
 APs, to make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that 
 can deliver packetlossless links.  Even Wifi gear can offer 
 packetlossless links.  And its forced me to go back and re-negotiate 
 my contracts with property owners to try and not pay per antenna, so 
 I can get more antennas of larger size (PtP) for less money on the 
 roofs.  Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't have to do, if 
 Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext.

 I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around 
 its

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Matt Liotta
I am not suggesting that Canopy shouldn't be better, but it is certainly 
better than good enough. Again, not only are we leading the industry in 
ARPU, we also doing hundreds of thousands of VoIP minutes every month.


-Matt

Brad Larson wrote:

Jon, Canopy is not fast enough for many now and voip performance is lacking.
Depending on the circumstance you may be right for many but the times are
changing very quickly. There are more and more projects hitting the streets
where you don't even make the cut if you can't pass the higher data traffic
or support more than 25 voip calls per sector. Brad

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM

To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's
class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will
likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage.
As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to
solve...

  


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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Patrick Leary
You pay more per customer than an Alvarion user Matt since all your
customers are on dedicated PtP shots though, right?

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 12:19 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

I believe we have one of the highest APRUs in the business and we use 
Canopy (including Orthogon). We do like the Trango Atlas, but only for 
limited deployment.

I don't really think the price of the radio correlates to the revenue of

the service.

-Matt

Tom DeReggi wrote:
 As much as I've protested Canopy, (in my mind poor design), the 
 smaller the gaps are getting.
 The problem is that Trango kept degrading their gear more and more 
 like Canopy. And Canopy kept improving their gear.
 Trango still wins, because Trango is less expensive.
 Canopy still has some of the traits that I also don't like about 
 Trango (darn DSS dish antennas).

 My goal is to gain the High Arpu business.  Who the winner will be is 
 not a dying breed product, but the manufacturer that steps up to the 
 plate to deliver a complete product.
 I want to be done with half-assed antennas.   What I've learned is 
 that the ANTENNA IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE RADIO.

 Trango's strength had always been their internal antennas and options 
 for good external ones.

 On a side note, Does Canopy 5.8G CPEs have external connectors?

 The truth is, I want the cheap CPE antenna option, for half my 
 installs, cause it saves me money and thats all I need to do the job. 
 I just don't want to give up the flexibilty to optimize reliabitly for

 the other 50%.

 The other thing you forget is, I'd now rather fight it out, and stay 
 put on the channel, doesn't mean that I will win.  With Trango, I 
 still have the option to change my mind, when somebody beats me up, 
 and I need to go run to another channel or polarity. Its always good 
 to have a backup plan.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:24 PM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


 snip
 What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change
and
 move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to
 effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot 
 noise, I
 move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels.,
until
 they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes
its
 better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another
 channel to play on.  And keep fighting back with better antennas. As
the
 antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important 
 point is,
 you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the 
 beamwidth.
 The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the
other
 player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering.  Alvarion gives
that
 advantage.
 /snip

 Tom,

 Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy
ducking

 -Charles

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Matt Liotta

Patrick Leary wrote:

You pay more per customer than an Alvarion user Matt since all your
customers are on dedicated PtP shots though, right?

  
Last time I looked at Alvarion's pricing that wasn't the case. We do use 
a lot PtP shots, but all of our customers aren't on dedicated PtP shots. 
We don't have any customers on over-subscribed radios though.


-Matt
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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Patrick Leary
For sure we are a premium product, so we will never be near the lowest
and don't ever want to be in that game. We try to offer value. That
said, frankly, I personally am not a fan of how we list our pricing.
MSRP is very misleading since each company may have a different channel
model, or lack of one entirely. In other words, our pricing appears much
higher than that which people actually pay, even people buying in
quantities of one much less those buying in volume.

In terms of oversubscription, having it or not is neither good or bad
and there is nothing to tilt your nose to about oversubscription in and
of itself. You offer a dedicated circuit and your clients pay
accordingly much more and should. I assume they chose you because they
want that dedicated circuit and believe you offer it at a value. Others
chose to sell oversubscribed service, which is perfectly acceptable and
does result in a lower ARPU than a dedicated circuit.

That said, sure there are operators that WAY over subscribe. I've some
cable ops doing 1000:1 residential which must be crappy service. We
advise of a residential of 20:1 and a commercial of 4:1, maybe 5:1.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Patrick Leary wrote:
 You pay more per customer than an Alvarion user Matt since all your
 customers are on dedicated PtP shots though, right?

   
Last time I looked at Alvarion's pricing that wasn't the case. We do use

a lot PtP shots, but all of our customers aren't on dedicated PtP shots.

We don't have any customers on over-subscribed radios though.

-Matt
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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Tom DeReggi

Patrick,

I couldn't agree more, well said.

PS. The problem is finding gear/platform that has a balanced offering for 
both high ARPU and low ARPU business.  Since most WISPs go after both 
markets.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 3:09 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


My goal is to gain the High Arpu business.

Tom, that is exactly where Alvarion excels and why it is my opinion that
the more premium an operator becomes in the total quality of their
service, the more likely an operator is to choose Alvarion. And these
customers have different service level expectations that go far beyond
the speed. They require a reliable connection that they can essentially
forget about. Any connection that draws the attention of the end
customer is a bad connection, because something is happening that forces
them to deal with it. That is a distraction. That leads to a sense of
insecurity, which is something a high ARPU customer will not tolerate
over time.

So Alvarion radios are built and given feature sets that allow an
extreme level of customization (lots of depth in the VLAN abilities for
example) and reliability (both physical and in terms of link stability).
As well, as an operator you are able to pull a huge variety of
statistics to reduce trouble shooting time when you do have to trouble
shoot.

And on the basic level, the way our radios use the air means we scan
scale high ARPU customers better per sector than any other UL brand.
That is especially true is you are offering more than just high speed
Internet access such as VLANs and services like VoIP.

It is plenty true that there have been numerous small WISPs that have
left Alvarion (something I am going to work hard to change), but I have
never met a SCALED operator that switch FROM Alvarion. I have met
countless though that have moved to us as they have reached the stage
where they need to become higher end providers. You are a prototypical
example of such a WISP. John's is such a case. Marty's Roadstar is one
of the most classic examples, having moved from 802.11b to Trango to
Alvarion.

Now for sure we are not perfect and we have our share of quirks, but we
are out there still investing heavily (millions) in this unlicensed
market, including on the product front. And we are fiscally very healthy
and always have been. We are a horse a long term operator can tie his
cart to. And I cannot understate how important that is. Many companies
and all the huge telecom equipment providers (including Moto) are not
investing in fixed now hardly at all, much less unlicensed fixed.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243







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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Tom DeReggi
Nice try, but I've found that comment to be not at all true. I have often 
chosen to avoid canopy user's channels, but because I am a good WISP 
neighbor, not because I had to.  Why fight if you can cooperate.  On a SPEC 
sheet Canopy does boast the lowest C/I.  But Trango's specified C/I was 
reported before considering ARQ. And Trango has always underspec'd their 
spec sheets.  C/I is not nearly as relevant as SNR resilience anyway. With 
Arq, we've easilly ran links as low as 4 db above the average noise floor, 
reliably.  There is VERY little difference between the Trango and Canopy C/I 
in real world usage.  The Trango just adds more polarities as more options 
to work around it, when needed.  One of the reasons we like Trango is its 
resilience to noise, that gives us the abilty to fight it out and stand our 
ground.  The Foxes w/ DISH, have excellent ARQ and resilience to Noise, 
within their range and LOS.


When we start to have trouble with Trango, is when we start to push the 
limits of the technology.  Its a LOS technology that we attempt NLOS with. 
My arguement is also not that we can't be the last man standing. Its that 
when the battle happens the customer sees it, and the customer does not 
tolerate it.  IF a Canopy and Trango went to war, one might survive a little 
better than the other, but ultimately both customers would feel the 
interference the majority of the time.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Jon Langeler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's 
class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will 
likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage. 
As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to 
solve...


--
Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.



Tom DeReggi wrote:

For the golden answer. GPS only helps you design your own network, and I 
already take care to use best practices for my own network, when its 
comming from myself.
Its all the other people that you have to worry about.   Do you think 
Public safety or department of transportation is using GPS sync for all 
their street pole omnis? Do you think all  the corporate end user PTP 
links being sold to them by clueless network integrators are GPS syncing? 
NOT!


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Brian Rohrbacher 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


Would GPS'd Canopy help?  If not, why?  Do others in the area use 
Canopy?


Brian

Tom DeReggi wrote:

Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 
5830-ext in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my 
business.  The reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're 
attempting to deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss 
solutions with TDD unless ARQ is available, in these situations.  It 
makes it worse with all the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know 
its there half the time, until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate 
contention based). Yes, of course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 
5830-ext, but it can't be used reliably.  One of the big mistakes I 
made is I tried to use it, and learned that it locks up the SU radios 
every couple of days, when under heavy load. I did my testing of it on 
about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and it appeared to be 
stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks that I thought 
was something else. But after I installed it on the high volume links 
(other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most recent 
supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes of 
downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s 
and VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my 
reputation tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up 
cancelling and complaining about. Evey T1 that gets cancelled means 
there is a MTU property owner involved that got the word (they make the 
referals) and a trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of 
approval) that gets scared off, when they learn about the failure. 
Deals with partners that took months to build get thrown away over 
night, with a couple reboots from buggy ARQ firmware.


What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna 
side of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU 
side. Without ARQ one is toast.


Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, 
which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Patrick Leary








Yes, but based on net capacity of a given
sector, not gross.





Patrick Leary 
AVP WISP Markets 
Alvarion, Inc. 
o: 650.314.2628 
c: 760.580.0080 
Vonage: 650.641.1243 











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Mario Pommier
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006
4:17 PM
To: WISPA
 General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL
Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links





Patrick,
 I think I know what you mean, but can you elaborate: do you
mean [4-1Mbps customers] on [1Mbps of radio capacity]?
 Thanks.

Mario

Patrick Leary wrote: 

We advise of a residential of 20:1 and a commercial of 4:1, maybe 5:1.Patrick LearyAVP WISP MarketsAlvarion, Inc.o: 650.314.2628c: 760.580.0080Vonage: 650.641.1243-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Matt LiottaSent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:39 PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul LinksPatrick Leary wrote: 

You pay more per customer than an Alvarion user Matt since all yourcustomers are on dedicated PtP shots though, right? 

Last time I looked at Alvarion's pricing that wasn't the case. We do usea lot PtP shots, but all of our customers aren't on dedicated PtP shots.We don't have any customers on over-subscribed radios though.-Matt 






 
 

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Tom DeReggi
Matt, Don't forget the laws of statistics.  You also have been in business 
for less than 2 years. We didn't have interference problems our first 4 
years either. It wasn't until year 5 and 6, that it started to become tough. 
I may have complained a little about trango today, but List please don't 
take it out of context.   Every Telecom and their brother, is trying to 
install in our town, they abandon their effort in defeat, and I'm still here 
6 years later.  My market also has Fiber in 80% of the building, there is 
tough competition for the high ARPU business, and its a hard market to 
consistently deliver on.  And its not just the radio, it every aspect of a 
company. We are evolving through the years of experience we have had, and 
when we select which links we install and don't install, we do it with 
responsible choices to protect our reputation as a company that can deliver 
high ARPU quality.  I'd argue that our network is a last man standing 
network in our market today.  A lot of my comments are based on that the 
market will be changing, and manufacturers need to change with the market to 
give us options to better offer quality broadband that can compete with 
Fiber.


I'm not going to point to any specific manufacturer to say its not an 
adeqaute product for the WISP that chose it, I'm just saying that Canopy is 
no exception, none of the gear that is out there today is the perfect 
system, and they are all 5 years old technology.


The company that has most currently risen above the others based on 
technology to meet WISPs current need has been Alvarion with their V4 
product.
Wether its enough value to justify the price, is for the WISP to decide, and 
whether it will stay that way is up for the competing manufacturers to 
decide.


For example the only thing Trango needs to do to be the leader again, is to 
add a integrated 17-23db model fox or an EXT model Fox.  They could easilly 
do that with little sweat.
Or simply fix their ARQ firmware for the 5830 product line and not have to 
make any hardware changes.  Whether they choose todo that, I have no control 
of.
Maybe they are so excited about their next generation Wi-Max gear, they want 
to go straight to that? I don't know.

.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Matt Liotta [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 5:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


I am not suggesting that Canopy shouldn't be better, but it is certainly 
better than good enough. Again, not only are we leading the industry in 
ARPU, we also doing hundreds of thousands of VoIP minutes every month.


-Matt

Brad Larson wrote:
Jon, Canopy is not fast enough for many now and voip performance is 
lacking.

Depending on the circumstance you may be right for many but the times are
changing very quickly. There are more and more projects hitting the 
streets
where you don't even make the cut if you can't pass the higher data 
traffic

or support more than 25 voip calls per sector. Brad

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM

To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's
class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will
likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum 
usage.

As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to
solve...




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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Jon Langeler
Tom, I have nothing to gain or lose by telling you what we've not only 
extensivley tested but also experienced over 6 years. We started using 
canopy since it began shipping and at least 100 trango SU between 3 
different towers since beta. I just hate to see fellow wisp protest that 
there isn't a good product and struggle when their actually is a pretty 
darn good one...and on top of that has an upgrade path in it's vision, 
it keeps getting better.


ARQ does not affect C/I like FEC does for example. When you say ARQ is 
fixing any resiliance problems that may be true. But you'll also suffer 
from increased latency and less throughput during those retransmissions. 
Not good if you want to support VOIP and keep customers happy. Having a 
low C/I means the system will be stable more often and maintain a lower 
retrans. Trango's ARQ is not even an option in the 5800 model which is 
what you and I probably have a decent percentage of in our Trango 
networks. Having a low C/I requirement affects other things like 
increases the range of a product. I'm laying out facts, you can convince 
yourself of whatever you want...


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Tom DeReggi wrote:

Nice try, but I've found that comment to be not at all true. I have 
often chosen to avoid canopy user's channels, but because I am a good 
WISP neighbor, not because I had to.  Why fight if you can cooperate.  
On a SPEC sheet Canopy does boast the lowest C/I.  But Trango's 
specified C/I was reported before considering ARQ. And Trango has 
always underspec'd their spec sheets.  C/I is not nearly as relevant 
as SNR resilience anyway. With Arq, we've easilly ran links as low as 
4 db above the average noise floor, reliably.  There is VERY little 
difference between the Trango and Canopy C/I in real world usage.  The 
Trango just adds more polarities as more options to work around it, 
when needed.  One of the reasons we like Trango is its resilience to 
noise, that gives us the abilty to fight it out and stand our ground.  
The Foxes w/ DISH, have excellent ARQ and resilience to Noise, within 
their range and LOS.


When we start to have trouble with Trango, is when we start to push 
the limits of the technology.  Its a LOS technology that we attempt 
NLOS with. My arguement is also not that we can't be the last man 
standing. Its that when the battle happens the customer sees it, and 
the customer does not tolerate it.  IF a Canopy and Trango went to 
war, one might survive a little better than the other, but ultimately 
both customers would feel the interference the majority of the time.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Jon Langeler
Hey Brad, VOIP may be the only thing canopy is lagging in. I'm curious 
if they'll improve that in the version 8 software release or at least 
when they move toward WIMAX compatibility. In the mean time I'm more 
concerned with providing reliable pipes...


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Brad Larson wrote:


Jon, Canopy is not fast enough for many now and voip performance is lacking.
Depending on the circumstance you may be right for many but the times are
changing very quickly. There are more and more projects hitting the streets
where you don't even make the cut if you can't pass the higher data traffic
or support more than 25 voip calls per sector. Brad

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 4:10 PM

To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Since canopy is the most robust(3db C/I, ARQ, etc.) PTMP product in it's
class(and happens to be #1 deployed in US), anyone not using canopy will
likely find themselves conforming to the canopy operators' spectrum usage.
As for coordination among the canopy operators, that's an easy problem to
solve...

 


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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-22 Thread Gino A. Villarini
Connectorized Canopy SM are coming q4

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:31 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

As much as I've protested Canopy, (in my mind poor design), the smaller the 
gaps are getting.
The problem is that Trango kept degrading their gear more and more like 
Canopy. And Canopy kept improving their gear.
Trango still wins, because Trango is less expensive.
Canopy still has some of the traits that I also don't like about Trango 
(darn DSS dish antennas).

My goal is to gain the High Arpu business.  Who the winner will be is not a 
dying breed product, but the manufacturer that steps up to the plate to 
deliver a complete product.
I want to be done with half-assed antennas.   What I've learned is that the 
ANTENNA IS JUST AS IMPORTANT AS THE RADIO.

Trango's strength had always been their internal antennas and options for 
good external ones.

On a side note, Does Canopy 5.8G CPEs have external connectors?

The truth is, I want the cheap CPE antenna option, for half my installs, 
cause it saves me money and thats all I need to do the job. I just don't 
want to give up the flexibilty to optimize reliabitly for the other 50%.

The other thing you forget is, I'd now rather fight it out, and stay put on 
the channel, doesn't mean that I will win.  With Trango, I still have the 
option to change my mind, when somebody beats me up, and I need to go run to

another channel or polarity. Its always good to have a backup plan.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Charles Wu [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:24 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


snip
What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and
move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to
effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I
move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until
they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its
better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another
channel to play on.  And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the
antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is,
you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth.
The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other
player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering.  Alvarion gives that
advantage.
/snip

Tom,

Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking

-Charles

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Mario Pommier

John,
   Good to hear you got issues fixed, independent of the 
manufacturer/vendor you used.

   Regarding the radios you're using now.
   Some of us, like our company, started with Alvarion and never 
switched out.
   It's hard to try other technologies that appear less expensive, when 
the one you already have proves itself year after year after year.  And 
when you can talk to really good engineering support.
   OK, so we haven't found a way to use Alvarion equipment on 
residential markets except where we don't have to compete with $30/mo 
dsl.  But I know some folks, even on this list, who somehow have done that.
   But on the business side, our transition from Alvarion BAII or 900 
to VL has had the same response from our customers that you describe 
wow, that is fast.  Mind you, these customers are still limited on our 
bandwidth manager to the same 1Mbps symmetrical speeds.  But the VL 
network just seems to fly compared to the previous, 4 or more year old 
technologies now.
   It's also hard to try out other technologies when someone like you 
give a report like this one: I was thinking about using Trango for a 
link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today.

   Thanks.

Mario

John Scrivner wrote:

As you guys know my company was having some serious speed and 
reliability issues with our existing Trango backhaul some time back. 
We have about 25 tower locations in Southern Illinois which until 
recently were all fed from these Trango radios. We had countless short 
outages, signal irregularities, bandwidth crunches, etc. The Trangos 
used to work just fine. In the last year or so the Trango links have 
become a big problem for us. We tried several things to fix these 
problems but the Trangos were simply being pushed to do more than they 
were designed to do. The amount of packet counts, speed, etc. we 
needed to reliably serve the towers simply was too much for these 
radios and they were buckling under the strain.


I have always thought highly of Alvarion and knew we could probably 
find a good place for their equipment in our network someday. 
Previously the trouble with choosing Alvarion had always been that we 
either needed something they did not offer at the time needed ( as was 
the case when we selected Trango for multi-point 5 GHz backhaul back 
in the day) or that they were too expensive. Alvarion finally has a 
place in our network.


In the case of our troubled backhaul links Alvarion's VL product 
seemed to fit the bill to help us now. We had seen reports of 50,000 
packet per second throughput and up to 35 megabit per second capacity 
with the new Version 4 of the VL firmware. When I asked about the 
product I was directed to a guy named Mike Cowan of Wireless 
Connections who is a RF engineer and sells Alvarion VL.


Mike spent an incredible amount of time with our staff to look over 
the issues we were having and help us find ways of correcting it. He 
never charged us a dime for what I consider to be thousands of dollars 
worth of support and training. Mike Cowan and Alvarion did more for us 
to help us build a better WISP network than any vendor ever has since 
the day I became a WISP.


We also had some serious peer to peer traffic issues on our network 
which were resolved with a Mikrotik box running to slow down that 
traffic. The combination of this box and the new more robust Alvarion 
VL backhaul has led customers to remark, It's like the difference 
between night and day. We have zero downtime on our backhaul now. We 
were getting countless reports of downtime from our network monitoring 
system before. Now it just works.


I don't think I can overstate the impact Alvarion VL has had on my 
network. If you are having problems with your network then you need to 
at least call Alvarion and give them a shot. In the last three months 
or so we have migrated about 40% of our backhaul links over to 
Alvarion VL. Since that time outages on those most troubled links have 
vanished. Throughput has tripled. People have gone from screaming and 
yelling to sending their friends to us to hookup.


If you guys want to compare the numbers out there I am sure you will 
find a few  different systems that will give comparable umbers to what 
we are seeing with Alvarion VL. What you do not see in those numbers 
is the quality and the reliability of the system. I have always been a 
tinkerer and I will continue to tinker. What I believe though is that 
there is something to be said for buying a high-quality, engineered 
system and that is what you get with Alvarion VL. If you have tower 
locations and/or enterprise customers who cannot afford to be a test 
subject for your tinkering then consider calling Alvarion for those 
links. There is no shame in admitting you cannot possibly build a 
system as reliable as a company who has spent millions of dollars and 
hired countless designers to research and build a better data radio. I 
am certainly not ashamed to 

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Tom DeReggi
]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links



John,
   Good to hear you got issues fixed, independent of the 
manufacturer/vendor you used.

   Regarding the radios you're using now.
   Some of us, like our company, started with Alvarion and never switched 
out.
   It's hard to try other technologies that appear less expensive, when 
the one you already have proves itself year after year after year.  And 
when you can talk to really good engineering support.
   OK, so we haven't found a way to use Alvarion equipment on residential 
markets except where we don't have to compete with $30/mo dsl.  But I know 
some folks, even on this list, who somehow have done that.
   But on the business side, our transition from Alvarion BAII or 900 to 
VL has had the same response from our customers that you describe wow, 
that is fast.  Mind you, these customers are still limited on our 
bandwidth manager to the same 1Mbps symmetrical speeds.  But the VL 
network just seems to fly compared to the previous, 4 or more year old 
technologies now.
   It's also hard to try out other technologies when someone like you give 
a report like this one: I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but 
I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today.

   Thanks.

Mario

John Scrivner wrote:

As you guys know my company was having some serious speed and reliability 
issues with our existing Trango backhaul some time back. We have about 25 
tower locations in Southern Illinois which until recently were all fed 
from these Trango radios. We had countless short outages, signal 
irregularities, bandwidth crunches, etc. The Trangos used to work just 
fine. In the last year or so the Trango links have become a big problem 
for us. We tried several things to fix these problems but the Trangos 
were simply being pushed to do more than they were designed to do. The 
amount of packet counts, speed, etc. we needed to reliably serve the 
towers simply was too much for these radios and they were buckling under 
the strain.


I have always thought highly of Alvarion and knew we could probably find 
a good place for their equipment in our network someday. Previously the 
trouble with choosing Alvarion had always been that we either needed 
something they did not offer at the time needed ( as was the case when we 
selected Trango for multi-point 5 GHz backhaul back in the day) or that 
they were too expensive. Alvarion finally has a place in our network.


In the case of our troubled backhaul links Alvarion's VL product seemed 
to fit the bill to help us now. We had seen reports of 50,000 packet per 
second throughput and up to 35 megabit per second capacity with the new 
Version 4 of the VL firmware. When I asked about the product I was 
directed to a guy named Mike Cowan of Wireless Connections who is a RF 
engineer and sells Alvarion VL.


Mike spent an incredible amount of time with our staff to look over the 
issues we were having and help us find ways of correcting it. He never 
charged us a dime for what I consider to be thousands of dollars worth of 
support and training. Mike Cowan and Alvarion did more for us to help us 
build a better WISP network than any vendor ever has since the day I 
became a WISP.


We also had some serious peer to peer traffic issues on our network which 
were resolved with a Mikrotik box running to slow down that traffic. The 
combination of this box and the new more robust Alvarion VL backhaul has 
led customers to remark, It's like the difference between night and 
day. We have zero downtime on our backhaul now. We were getting 
countless reports of downtime from our network monitoring system before. 
Now it just works.


I don't think I can overstate the impact Alvarion VL has had on my 
network. If you are having problems with your network then you need to at 
least call Alvarion and give them a shot. In the last three months or so 
we have migrated about 40% of our backhaul links over to Alvarion VL. 
Since that time outages on those most troubled links have vanished. 
Throughput has tripled. People have gone from screaming and yelling to 
sending their friends to us to hookup.


If you guys want to compare the numbers out there I am sure you will find 
a few  different systems that will give comparable umbers to what we are 
seeing with Alvarion VL. What you do not see in those numbers is the 
quality and the reliability of the system. I have always been a tinkerer 
and I will continue to tinker. What I believe though is that there is 
something to be said for buying a high-quality, engineered system and 
that is what you get with Alvarion VL. If you have tower locations and/or 
enterprise customers who cannot afford to be a test subject for your 
tinkering then consider calling Alvarion for those links. There is no 
shame in admitting you cannot possibly build a system as reliable

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Travis Johnson
 are 
finding that they actually would have worked in more places than we 
originally thought.


Now in fairness, I have made some cross comparison between PtMP and 
PTP products. The Trango Atlas has an external antenna option also if 
doing PTP.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc


- Original Message - From: Mario Pommier 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:36 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links



John,
   Good to hear you got issues fixed, independent of the 
manufacturer/vendor you used.

   Regarding the radios you're using now.
   Some of us, like our company, started with Alvarion and never 
switched out.
   It's hard to try other technologies that appear less expensive, 
when the one you already have proves itself year after year after 
year.  And when you can talk to really good engineering support.
   OK, so we haven't found a way to use Alvarion equipment on 
residential markets except where we don't have to compete with $30/mo 
dsl.  But I know some folks, even on this list, who somehow have done 
that.
   But on the business side, our transition from Alvarion BAII or 900 
to VL has had the same response from our customers that you describe 
wow, that is fast.  Mind you, these customers are still limited on 
our bandwidth manager to the same 1Mbps symmetrical speeds.  But the 
VL network just seems to fly compared to the previous, 4 or more year 
old technologies now.
   It's also hard to try out other technologies when someone like you 
give a report like this one: I was thinking about using Trango for a 
link, but I do not want headaches, not today and not 5 years from today.

   Thanks.

Mario

John Scrivner wrote:

As you guys know my company was having some serious speed and 
reliability issues with our existing Trango backhaul some time back. 
We have about 25 tower locations in Southern Illinois which until 
recently were all fed from these Trango radios. We had countless 
short outages, signal irregularities, bandwidth crunches, etc. The 
Trangos used to work just fine. In the last year or so the Trango 
links have become a big problem for us. We tried several things to 
fix these problems but the Trangos were simply being pushed to do 
more than they were designed to do. The amount of packet counts, 
speed, etc. we needed to reliably serve the towers simply was too 
much for these radios and they were buckling under the strain.


I have always thought highly of Alvarion and knew we could probably 
find a good place for their equipment in our network someday. 
Previously the trouble with choosing Alvarion had always been that 
we either needed something they did not offer at the time needed ( 
as was the case when we selected Trango for multi-point 5 GHz 
backhaul back in the day) or that they were too expensive. Alvarion 
finally has a place in our network.


In the case of our troubled backhaul links Alvarion's VL product 
seemed to fit the bill to help us now. We had seen reports of 50,000 
packet per second throughput and up to 35 megabit per second 
capacity with the new Version 4 of the VL firmware. When I asked 
about the product I was directed to a guy named Mike Cowan of 
Wireless Connections who is a RF engineer and sells Alvarion VL.


Mike spent an incredible amount of time with our staff to look over 
the issues we were having and help us find ways of correcting it. He 
never charged us a dime for what I consider to be thousands of 
dollars worth of support and training. Mike Cowan and Alvarion did 
more for us to help us build a better WISP network than any vendor 
ever has since the day I became a WISP.


We also had some serious peer to peer traffic issues on our network 
which were resolved with a Mikrotik box running to slow down that 
traffic. The combination of this box and the new more robust 
Alvarion VL backhaul has led customers to remark, It's like the 
difference between night and day. We have zero downtime on our 
backhaul now. We were getting countless reports of downtime from our 
network monitoring system before. Now it just works.


I don't think I can overstate the impact Alvarion VL has had on my 
network. If you are having problems with your network then you need 
to at least call Alvarion and give them a shot. In the last three 
months or so we have migrated about 40% of our backhaul links over 
to Alvarion VL. Since that time outages on those most troubled links 
have vanished. Throughput has tripled. People have gone from 
screaming and yelling to sending their friends to us to hookup.


If you guys want to compare the numbers out there I am sure you will 
find a few  different systems that will give comparable umbers to 
what we are seeing with Alvarion VL. What you do not see in those 
numbers is the quality and the reliability of the system. I have 
always been a tinkerer and I will continue to tinker. What I believe 
though

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Brad Belton
Agreed that Trango has clearly fallen behind...way behind.  However, the VL
is also far from being an end all solution.  The VL has no mechanism to
avoid interference (No RX threshold etc.) other than just to retransmit.

Also, the VL does not offer the flexibility to change polarities on the fly.
In fact Alvarion doesn't even offer an H Polarity SU INT and if you rotate
the V Polarity SU to H you'll likely have a water penetration problem.

The VL is only available in a 5.3GHz or 5.8GHz solution further limiting the
flexibility the product offers.  As our HUB sites increase in number and
decrease in required coverage area we have found the 5.3GHz band to be VERY
valuable.  You do not have that flexibility with VL.

When Alvarion is presented with the freq and polarity suggestions they
simply respond with we're RF purists talking points.  No indication that
maybe, just maybe those would be good features to add to the product.

We deployed a VL in an above average noisy environment with the latest v3.x
firmware and the results were dismal to say the least.  Fortunately
upgrading to v4.0 allowed us to salvage the deal, but we still can only pass
a few Mbps.  This is far less than what a Trango M5830AP can do in a noisy
environment.

As with most things YMMV.

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are 
still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much 
better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links 
feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option. 
I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango 
has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including 
myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in 
feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than 
Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a 
low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango 
multipoint radios will still provide excellent service. Just because I 
have soured on them does not mean they are not a platform for WISPs to 
consider.
Scriv

 I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want 
 headaches, not today and not 5 years from today.
Thanks.

 Mario

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Travis Johnson
I think in all fairness, we need to put a major factor to radio 
selection out on the table too... price.


Trango retail pricing:
Trango Link10-EXT's are $1,500 for a complete link.
Trango 5830AP-EXTs are $1,095
Trango 5830SU-EXT's are $729
Trango FOX are $149

Alvarion pricing (not sure if this is retail or not):
VL 5.8ghz AP - $4,525
VL 6MBPS CPE - $1,045

It still stands true... you get what you pay for if you spend 4x the 
money on an AP, I would suspect it should work better. If you spend 4x 
the money on a car, boat, house, etc. it should work better. The 
question is, do you need to spend 4x the money to get what your 
customers need?


Travis
Microserv


John Scrivner wrote:

Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are 
still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much 
better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used 
links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad 
option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good 
job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years 
(including myself until recently). I have found though that for my 
applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 
100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have 
a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing 
that the Trango multipoint radios will still provide excellent 
service. Just because I have soured on them does not mean they are not 
a platform for WISPs to consider.

Scriv

I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want 
headaches, not today and not 5 years from today.

   Thanks.

Mario


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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Patrick Leary
That's retail Travis. Actual pricing WISPs pay is far less. By the way,
that VL AU also delivers over 32Mbps net at the top mod and can scream
with VoIP.
Here are the net rates per mod for VL:

   Avg  Avg
 FTPLayer 2
Modulation 1   4.96 5.56
Modulation 2   7.28 8.16
Modulation 3   9.9  11.10
Modulation 4   14.3516.09
Modulation 5   19.3821.73
Modulation 6   26.7730.01
Modulation 7   33.4137.46
Modulation 8   36.2440.63
 
Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:41 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

I think in all fairness, we need to put a major factor to radio 
selection out on the table too... price.

Trango retail pricing:
Trango Link10-EXT's are $1,500 for a complete link.
Trango 5830AP-EXTs are $1,095
Trango 5830SU-EXT's are $729
Trango FOX are $149

Alvarion pricing (not sure if this is retail or not):
VL 5.8ghz AP - $4,525
VL 6MBPS CPE - $1,045

It still stands true... you get what you pay for if you spend 4x the

money on an AP, I would suspect it should work better. If you spend 4x 
the money on a car, boat, house, etc. it should work better. The 
question is, do you need to spend 4x the money to get what your 
customers need?

Travis
Microserv


John Scrivner wrote:

 Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are

 still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much 
 better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used 
 links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad

 option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good 
 job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years 
 (including myself until recently). I have found though that for my 
 applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 
 100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have

 a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing 
 that the Trango multipoint radios will still provide excellent 
 service. Just because I have soured on them does not mean they are not

 a platform for WISPs to consider.
 Scriv

 I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want 
 headaches, not today and not 5 years from today.
Thanks.

 Mario

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Brad Belton
I fully believe these payload rates are achievable in little or no noise
environments.  I think it's important to add a disclaimer stating these
rates are theoretically obtainable under ideal conditions.  In comparison a
product that has mechanisms to avoid noise or block noise will perform
better.

Our VL setup running v4.0 is only able to achieve 2-3Mbps uploads TCP HDX
and 8-10Mbps downloads TCP HDX.  Running TCP FDX tests is pretty ugly, so I
won't even bother posting.

This is a real world deployment under real world noisy conditions not a
glossy ad best case claim by a manufacturer interested in pushing boxes
off the shelves.  grin

Patrick, any chance Alvarion will reconsider a software switchable Dual
Polarity AU and SU?  Any chance Alvarion will consider offering both 5.3GHz
and 5.8GHz bands in one product?  

I believe Alvarion is on to something with the VL v4.0 series product, but
they are lacking some very basic functionality as I have noted above.  If
Alvarion were to add the two above features to the VL line I believe the VL
product could be an industry leader in PtMP throughput and flexibility.

Best,


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

That's retail Travis. Actual pricing WISPs pay is far less. By the way,
that VL AU also delivers over 32Mbps net at the top mod and can scream
with VoIP.
Here are the net rates per mod for VL:

   Avg  Avg
 FTPLayer 2
Modulation 1   4.96 5.56
Modulation 2   7.28 8.16
Modulation 3   9.9  11.10
Modulation 4   14.3516.09
Modulation 5   19.3821.73
Modulation 6   26.7730.01
Modulation 7   33.4137.46
Modulation 8   36.2440.63
 
Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:41 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

I think in all fairness, we need to put a major factor to radio 
selection out on the table too... price.

Trango retail pricing:
Trango Link10-EXT's are $1,500 for a complete link.
Trango 5830AP-EXTs are $1,095
Trango 5830SU-EXT's are $729
Trango FOX are $149

Alvarion pricing (not sure if this is retail or not):
VL 5.8ghz AP - $4,525
VL 6MBPS CPE - $1,045

It still stands true... you get what you pay for if you spend 4x the

money on an AP, I would suspect it should work better. If you spend 4x 
the money on a car, boat, house, etc. it should work better. The 
question is, do you need to spend 4x the money to get what your 
customers need?

Travis
Microserv


John Scrivner wrote:

 Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are

 still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much 
 better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used 
 links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad

 option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good 
 job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years 
 (including myself until recently). I have found though that for my 
 applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 
 100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have

 a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing 
 that the Trango multipoint radios will still provide excellent 
 service. Just because I have soured on them does not mean they are not

 a platform for WISPs to consider.
 Scriv

 I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want 
 headaches, not today and not 5 years from today.
Thanks.

 Mario

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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread David E. Smith
Patrick Leary wrote:

 Here are the net rates per mod for VL:
 
  Avg  Avg
FTPLayer 2
 Modulation 1   4.96   5.56
 Modulation 2   7.28   8.16
 Modulation 3   9.911.10
 Modulation 4   14.35  16.09
 Modulation 5   19.38  21.73
 Modulation 6   26.77  30.01
 Modulation 7   33.41  37.46
 Modulation 8   36.24  40.63

Just outta curiosity, what test methodology does Alvarion use to get
those numbers? Don't get me wrong, I'm fairly happy with our Alvarion
purchase (heck, you've all seen my boss' feedback that launched this
thread), but my real-world throughputs aren't quite that high.

David Smith
MVN.net
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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Patrick Leary
I'll ask Ed. He posted all the details on Mike Cowan's Alvarion support
list. I cut and pasted the mod rates from his original post. Ed?

David, what speeds (Net) are you getting relative to the mod rate you
are running? 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Patrick Leary wrote:

 Here are the net rates per mod for VL:
 
  Avg  Avg
FTPLayer 2
 Modulation 1   4.96   5.56
 Modulation 2   7.28   8.16
 Modulation 3   9.911.10
 Modulation 4   14.35  16.09
 Modulation 5   19.38  21.73
 Modulation 6   26.77  30.01
 Modulation 7   33.41  37.46
 Modulation 8   36.24  40.63

Just outta curiosity, what test methodology does Alvarion use to get
those numbers? Don't get me wrong, I'm fairly happy with our Alvarion
purchase (heck, you've all seen my boss' feedback that launched this
thread), but my real-world throughputs aren't quite that high.

David Smith
MVN.net
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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Brad Belton
I fully believe these payload rates are achievable in little or no noise
environments.  I think it's important to add a disclaimer stating these
rates are theoretically obtainable under ideal conditions.  In comparison a
product that has mechanisms to avoid noise or block noise will perform
better.

Our VL setup running v4.0 is only able to achieve 2-3Mbps uploads TCP HDX
and 8-10Mbps downloads TCP HDX.  Running TCP FDX tests is pretty ugly, so I
won't even bother posting.

This is a real world deployment under real world noisy conditions not a
glossy ad best case claim by a manufacturer interested in pushing boxes
off the shelves.  grin

Patrick, any chance Alvarion will reconsider a software switchable Dual
Polarity AU and SU?  Any chance Alvarion will consider offering both 5.3GHz
and 5.8GHz bands in one product?  

I believe Alvarion is on to something with the VL v4.0 series product, but
they are lacking some very basic functionality as I have noted above.  If
Alvarion were to add the two above features to the VL line I believe the VL
product could be an industry leader in PtMP throughput and flexibility.

Best,


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

That's retail Travis. Actual pricing WISPs pay is far less. By the way,
that VL AU also delivers over 32Mbps net at the top mod and can scream
with VoIP.
Here are the net rates per mod for VL:

   Avg  Avg
 FTPLayer 2
Modulation 1   4.96 5.56
Modulation 2   7.28 8.16
Modulation 3   9.9  11.10
Modulation 4   14.3516.09
Modulation 5   19.3821.73
Modulation 6   26.7730.01
Modulation 7   33.4137.46
Modulation 8   36.2440.63
 
Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:41 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

I think in all fairness, we need to put a major factor to radio 
selection out on the table too... price.

Trango retail pricing:
Trango Link10-EXT's are $1,500 for a complete link.
Trango 5830AP-EXTs are $1,095
Trango 5830SU-EXT's are $729
Trango FOX are $149

Alvarion pricing (not sure if this is retail or not):
VL 5.8ghz AP - $4,525
VL 6MBPS CPE - $1,045

It still stands true... you get what you pay for if you spend 4x the

money on an AP, I would suspect it should work better. If you spend 4x 
the money on a car, boat, house, etc. it should work better. The 
question is, do you need to spend 4x the money to get what your 
customers need?

Travis
Microserv


John Scrivner wrote:

 Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are

 still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much 
 better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used 
 links feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad

 option. I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good 
 job. Trango has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years 
 (including myself until recently). I have found though that for my 
 applications in feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 
 100% better than Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have

 a need for a low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing 
 that the Trango multipoint radios will still provide excellent 
 service. Just because I have soured on them does not mean they are not

 a platform for WISPs to consider.
 Scriv

 I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want 
 headaches, not today and not 5 years from today.
Thanks.

 Mario

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Patrick Leary
Ah. So in that case I would really like to hear from those with 4.0 in
the field in terms of what net rates are being achieved at what mods.
Lab is one thing, real world is quite another. 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: Ed Wyatt 
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:29 PM
To: Patrick Leary; 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

This was done in the lab with Rev C hardware running FTP traffic.  And
then the Layer 2 traffic was done with Smartbits hardware box also in
the lab.   



Ed Wyatt, Jr.
Sr. Applications Engineer
Alvarion, Inc.
4012 Mt. Olney Lane
Olney, MD 20832-1002
(301) 570-0300 (v)
(301) 570-7074 (f)

http://www.alvarion-usa.com
 
NOTICE: This transmission and any files attached to it, may contain
confidential and/or privileged information and intended only for the
named recipient. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby
notified that any disclosure, reproduction, retransmission,
dissemination, disclosure, copying or any use of the information or
files contained is strictly prohibited. If you have received this
transmission in error, please notify the sender by reply and delete this
electronic mail.
 
-Original Message-
From: Patrick Leary 
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 4:13 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Cc: Ed Wyatt
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

I'll ask Ed. He posted all the details on Mike Cowan's Alvarion support
list. I cut and pasted the mod rates from his original post. Ed?

David, what speeds (Net) are you getting relative to the mod rate you
are running? 

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David E. Smith
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:00 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Patrick Leary wrote:

 Here are the net rates per mod for VL:
 
  Avg  Avg
FTPLayer 2
 Modulation 1   4.96   5.56
 Modulation 2   7.28   8.16
 Modulation 3   9.911.10
 Modulation 4   14.35  16.09
 Modulation 5   19.38  21.73
 Modulation 6   26.77  30.01
 Modulation 7   33.41  37.46
 Modulation 8   36.24  40.63

Just outta curiosity, what test methodology does Alvarion use to get
those numbers? Don't get me wrong, I'm fairly happy with our Alvarion
purchase (heck, you've all seen my boss' feedback that launched this
thread), but my real-world throughputs aren't quite that high.

David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Tom DeReggi
Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext 
in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business.  The 
reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to 
deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD 
unless ARQ is available, in these situations.  It makes it worse with all 
the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, 
until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of 
course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used 
reliably.  One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned 
that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. 
I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and 
it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks 
that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high 
volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most 
recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes 
of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and 
VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation 
tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and 
complaining about.  Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU 
property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a 
trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets 
scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took 
months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy 
ARQ firmware.


What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side 
of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. 
Without ARQ one is toast.


Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, 
which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day 
because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. 
Last year,  I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and Link-10s 
more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not on 
their priority list.  That is frustrating for my business.  Customers don't 
wait in Urban Tier1 markets.  When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or 
their were a couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already 
placed their order with someone else.


What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango APs, to 
make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that can deliver 
packetlossless links.  Even Wifi gear can offer packetlossless links.  And 
its forced me to go back and re-negotiate my contracts with property owners 
to try and not pay per antenna, so I can get more antennas of larger size 
(PtP) for less money on the roofs.  Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't 
have to do, if Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext.


I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its 
product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing sales and 
getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango does not have a EXT 
antenna product line that delivers reliable ARQ.  I haven't bought a new 
Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many pulls on the shelf waiting, when I 
need one.  If Trango never released ARQ for the FOX, I would have never kown 
what I was missing. But now that I have experienced it, I can't live without 
it.


The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) Waiting 
for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through.  I can't count 
how much money I burned just waiting.  I don't want to wait any more. I'm 
tired of waiting. I don't have the energy to keep waiting. I want it now.  I 
need it now.  This is a time to market business, where there is a domino 
effect of disaster tied to waiting.


So when a company like Alvarion or Valemont come out with a product that 
will do the job, and I no longer have to wait, I see no reason to wait.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links



Tom,

I hate to say this, but I think you missed the boat on your three $500/mo 
subs. Trango still offers a 5830-EXT unit for $729 (retail) that would 
have allowed you the external antenna that was so critical for these 
links. Why did you not spend the $700 and have them paid for in less than 
two months?


Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:


I'm glad to hear that John found success with Alvarion.
However, his post does leave out technical detail on why the equipment 
had helped, which may be misleading to a reader.
I have

Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Tom DeReggi

Brad,

I got an idea! How about Trango Fix ARQ for the 5830-EXT, so it can be like 
old times, and we can sit and brag on the list how great our networks are?


One of the reasons StarOS is becoming such an exciting platform. StarOS can 
be used as a multi-freq, Multi-polarity on the fly product.
I will say that Alvarions choice to not make Dual Freq radios, has allowed 
them to deliver the highest gain from a radio with good clean filtering of 
the spectrum range.
But nobody has a good excuse for not offering Dual Polarity, there just 
isn't a negative to it.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


Agreed that Trango has clearly fallen behind...way behind.  However, the VL
is also far from being an end all solution.  The VL has no mechanism to
avoid interference (No RX threshold etc.) other than just to retransmit.

Also, the VL does not offer the flexibility to change polarities on the fly.
In fact Alvarion doesn't even offer an H Polarity SU INT and if you rotate
the V Polarity SU to H you'll likely have a water penetration problem.

The VL is only available in a 5.3GHz or 5.8GHz solution further limiting the
flexibility the product offers.  As our HUB sites increase in number and
decrease in required coverage area we have found the 5.3GHz band to be VERY
valuable.  You do not have that flexibility with VL.

When Alvarion is presented with the freq and polarity suggestions they
simply respond with we're RF purists talking points.  No indication that
maybe, just maybe those would be good features to add to the product.

We deployed a VL in an above average noisy environment with the latest v3.x
firmware and the results were dismal to say the least.  Fortunately
upgrading to v4.0 allowed us to salvage the deal, but we still can only pass
a few Mbps.  This is far less than what a Trango M5830AP can do in a noisy
environment.

As with most things YMMV.

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are
still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much
better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links
feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option.
I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango
has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including
myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in
feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than
Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a
low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango
multipoint radios will still provide excellent service. Just because I
have soured on them does not mean they are not a platform for WISPs to
consider.
Scriv


I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want
headaches, not today and not 5 years from today.
   Thanks.

Mario


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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Gino A. Villarini
Tom, so what you are changing the Trangos to ?

Also, you can hack yourself a EXT Fox ...

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 8:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Because, over the years I lost 100% of my high ARPU subs that used 5830-ext 
in these areas. Yes that REALLY hurt the financials of my business.  The 
reason, is that its a high noise environment where we're attempting to 
deploy, and its impossible to offer zero packet loss solutions with TDD 
unless ARQ is available, in these situations.  It makes it worse with all 
the WiFi gear going up, because you don;t know its there half the time, 
until its starts transmiting. (darn I hate contention based). Yes, of 
course, Beta ARQ firmware exists for the 5830-ext, but it can't be used 
reliably.  One of the big mistakes I made is I tried to use it, and learned 
that it locks up the SU radios every couple of days, when under heavy load. 
I did my testing of it on about 10 links. I started on 4 low use links, and 
it appeared to be stable, with only a random lockup every couple of weeks 
that I thought was something else. But after I installed it on the high 
volume links (other 6), they started locking up like crazy. (yes used most 
recent supposedly fixed firmware). Auto-Reboot devices causing two minutes 
of downtime for a reboot, is not adequate for High ARPU large office T1s and

VOIP services. I'd rather not have the business, than to get my reputation 
tarnished by installing links the subscriber ends up cancelling and 
complaining about.  Evey T1 that gets cancelled means there is a MTU 
property owner involved that got the word (they make the referals) and a 
trusted advisor Computer guy (agents that give stamp of approval) that gets 
scared off, when they learn about the failure. Deals with partners that took

months to build get thrown away over night, with a couple reboots from buggy

ARQ firmware.

What you can't forget is that in PtMP, you can't encrease the antenna side 
of the AP. Not everything can be solved with the big antenna on SU side. 
Without ARQ one is toast.

Trango gave me so much hope when they developed ARQ for the 5800 Foxes, 
which works fantastically. I'd select the Fox over a 5830-ext any day 
because of ARQ. But thats not good enough, I need ARQ and EXT connectors. 
Last year,  I made Trango aware that we needed ARQ on 5830-EXT and Link-10s 
more than anything, and a year later, we still don't have it, and its not on

their priority list.  That is frustrating for my business.  Customers don't 
wait in Urban Tier1 markets.  When the Link doesn't go up in a few days, or 
their were a couple of noise issues that scare them, they have already 
placed their order with someone else.

What it has forced me to do, is slowly start swapping out my Trango APs, to 
make room (spectrum and antenna lease fees) for radios that can deliver 
packetlossless links.  Even Wifi gear can offer packetlossless links.  And 
its forced me to go back and re-negotiate my contracts with property owners 
to try and not pay per antenna, so I can get more antennas of larger size 
(PtP) for less money on the roofs.  Its a BIG waste of time, that I wouldn't

have to do, if Trango added ARQ reliable ARQ to 5830-ext.

I'm still a Big Trango fan, and still am basing my business around its 
product, because of its value proposition, but I am loosing sales and 
getting more black eyes than I have to, because Trango does not have a EXT 
antenna product line that delivers reliable ARQ.  I haven't bought a new 
Trango 5830 AP in ages, I have to many pulls on the shelf waiting, when I 
need one.  If Trango never released ARQ for the FOX, I would have never kown

what I was missing. But now that I have experienced it, I can't live without

it.

The two biggest reasons, for lack of progress in my company is, 1) Waiting 
for technology, and 2) Waiting for finance to come through.  I can't count 
how much money I burned just waiting.  I don't want to wait any more. I'm 
tired of waiting. I don't have the energy to keep waiting. I want it now.  I

need it now.  This is a time to market business, where there is a domino 
effect of disaster tied to waiting.

So when a company like Alvarion or Valemont come out with a product that 
will do the job, and I no longer have to wait, I see no reason to wait.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


 Tom,

 I hate to say this, but I think you missed the boat on your three $500/mo 
 subs. Trango still

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Brad Belton
Hello Tom,

Brag about networks?  Still do!  lol  

Believe me when I say you're preaching to the choir when it comes to Trango.
It has been a wild ride UP with the 5800/5830 product and certainly a
disappointing DOWNWARD slide with the introduction of yet one miserable
Trango product after another.  As we predicted Trango has lost its rudder
and drifting aimlessly without any apparent direction.  This has been very
disheartening to witness to say the least.  I'm still holding out hope, but
not holding my breath.

Once the M5830 is gone we'll have moved along to another product.  Hopefully
that product will be Alvarion VL, but not until the RF purists (as they
like to call themselves cough-bullshit-cough) make a few fundamental
changes.  Dual polarity and dual band on the fly.  I've asked Patrick this
question, but it appears the cat's got his tongue!  grin

What's the big deal for Alvarion to add another Atheros radio to the product
that will give them dual polarity and dual band capability?  Alvarion would
rather you have to stock twice the SKUs (V  H SUs) for the ability to
change polarity?  Not to mention the truck rolls required...this is simply
out of the question.

Best,


Brad 




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 7:46 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Brad,

I got an idea! How about Trango Fix ARQ for the 5830-EXT, so it can be like 
old times, and we can sit and brag on the list how great our networks are?

One of the reasons StarOS is becoming such an exciting platform. StarOS can 
be used as a multi-freq, Multi-polarity on the fly product.
I will say that Alvarions choice to not make Dual Freq radios, has allowed 
them to deliver the highest gain from a radio with good clean filtering of 
the spectrum range.
But nobody has a good excuse for not offering Dual Polarity, there just 
isn't a negative to it.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


Agreed that Trango has clearly fallen behind...way behind.  However, the VL
is also far from being an end all solution.  The VL has no mechanism to
avoid interference (No RX threshold etc.) other than just to retransmit.

Also, the VL does not offer the flexibility to change polarities on the fly.
In fact Alvarion doesn't even offer an H Polarity SU INT and if you rotate
the V Polarity SU to H you'll likely have a water penetration problem.

The VL is only available in a 5.3GHz or 5.8GHz solution further limiting the
flexibility the product offers.  As our HUB sites increase in number and
decrease in required coverage area we have found the 5.3GHz band to be VERY
valuable.  You do not have that flexibility with VL.

When Alvarion is presented with the freq and polarity suggestions they
simply respond with we're RF purists talking points.  No indication that
maybe, just maybe those would be good features to add to the product.

We deployed a VL in an above average noisy environment with the latest v3.x
firmware and the results were dismal to say the least.  Fortunately
upgrading to v4.0 allowed us to salvage the deal, but we still can only pass
a few Mbps.  This is far less than what a Trango M5830AP can do in a noisy
environment.

As with most things YMMV.

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are
still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much
better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links
feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option.
I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango
has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including
myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in
feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than
Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a
low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango
multipoint radios will still provide excellent service. Just because I
have soured on them does not mean they are not a platform for WISPs to
consider.
Scriv

 I was thinking about using Trango for a link, but I do not want
 headaches, not today and not 5 years from today.
Thanks.

 Mario

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Patrick Leary
Cat doesn't have my tongue Brad. I'm just doing my best not to take the
bait.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 6:59 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Hello Tom,

Brag about networks?  Still do!  lol  

Believe me when I say you're preaching to the choir when it comes to
Trango.
It has been a wild ride UP with the 5800/5830 product and certainly a
disappointing DOWNWARD slide with the introduction of yet one miserable
Trango product after another.  As we predicted Trango has lost its
rudder
and drifting aimlessly without any apparent direction.  This has been
very
disheartening to witness to say the least.  I'm still holding out hope,
but
not holding my breath.

Once the M5830 is gone we'll have moved along to another product.
Hopefully
that product will be Alvarion VL, but not until the RF purists (as
they
like to call themselves cough-bullshit-cough) make a few fundamental
changes.  Dual polarity and dual band on the fly.  I've asked Patrick
this
question, but it appears the cat's got his tongue!  grin

What's the big deal for Alvarion to add another Atheros radio to the
product
that will give them dual polarity and dual band capability?  Alvarion
would
rather you have to stock twice the SKUs (V  H SUs) for the ability to
change polarity?  Not to mention the truck rolls required...this is
simply
out of the question.

Best,


Brad 




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 7:46 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Brad,

I got an idea! How about Trango Fix ARQ for the 5830-EXT, so it can be
like 
old times, and we can sit and brag on the list how great our networks
are?

One of the reasons StarOS is becoming such an exciting platform. StarOS
can 
be used as a multi-freq, Multi-polarity on the fly product.
I will say that Alvarions choice to not make Dual Freq radios, has
allowed 
them to deliver the highest gain from a radio with good clean filtering
of 
the spectrum range.
But nobody has a good excuse for not offering Dual Polarity, there just 
isn't a negative to it.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


Agreed that Trango has clearly fallen behind...way behind.  However, the
VL
is also far from being an end all solution.  The VL has no mechanism
to
avoid interference (No RX threshold etc.) other than just to retransmit.

Also, the VL does not offer the flexibility to change polarities on the
fly.
In fact Alvarion doesn't even offer an H Polarity SU INT and if you
rotate
the V Polarity SU to H you'll likely have a water penetration problem.

The VL is only available in a 5.3GHz or 5.8GHz solution further limiting
the
flexibility the product offers.  As our HUB sites increase in number and
decrease in required coverage area we have found the 5.3GHz band to be
VERY
valuable.  You do not have that flexibility with VL.

When Alvarion is presented with the freq and polarity suggestions they
simply respond with we're RF purists talking points.  No indication
that
maybe, just maybe those would be good features to add to the product.

We deployed a VL in an above average noisy environment with the latest
v3.x
firmware and the results were dismal to say the least.  Fortunately
upgrading to v4.0 allowed us to salvage the deal, but we still can only
pass
a few Mbps.  This is far less than what a Trango M5830AP can do in a
noisy
environment.

As with most things YMMV.

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are
still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much
better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links
feeding towers to other towns I think Trango multipoint is a bad option.
I have not used their Atlas radios which may well do a good job. Trango
has been a valuable product for many WISPs over the years (including
myself until recently). I have found though that for my applications in
feeding other towers to rural towns Alvarion VL works 100% better than
Trango or anything else I have ever used. If you have a need for a
low-cost short haul or CPE solution then I am guessing that the Trango
multipoint radios will still

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Brad Belton
???  Simple question...no bait intended!

What's the saying or how does it go?  Something about heat and the
kitchen...grin

Hey, don't be embarrassed about Coppell.  It's only a 2MB circuit and so far
the VL is keeping up...barely.

Best,


Brad


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 9:03 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Cat doesn't have my tongue Brad. I'm just doing my best not to take the
bait.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Belton
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 6:59 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Hello Tom,

Brag about networks?  Still do!  lol  

Believe me when I say you're preaching to the choir when it comes to
Trango.
It has been a wild ride UP with the 5800/5830 product and certainly a
disappointing DOWNWARD slide with the introduction of yet one miserable
Trango product after another.  As we predicted Trango has lost its
rudder
and drifting aimlessly without any apparent direction.  This has been
very
disheartening to witness to say the least.  I'm still holding out hope,
but
not holding my breath.

Once the M5830 is gone we'll have moved along to another product.
Hopefully
that product will be Alvarion VL, but not until the RF purists (as
they
like to call themselves cough-bullshit-cough) make a few fundamental
changes.  Dual polarity and dual band on the fly.  I've asked Patrick
this
question, but it appears the cat's got his tongue!  grin

What's the big deal for Alvarion to add another Atheros radio to the
product
that will give them dual polarity and dual band capability?  Alvarion
would
rather you have to stock twice the SKUs (V  H SUs) for the ability to
change polarity?  Not to mention the truck rolls required...this is
simply
out of the question.

Best,


Brad 




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 7:46 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Brad,

I got an idea! How about Trango Fix ARQ for the 5830-EXT, so it can be
like 
old times, and we can sit and brag on the list how great our networks
are?

One of the reasons StarOS is becoming such an exciting platform. StarOS
can 
be used as a multi-freq, Multi-polarity on the fly product.
I will say that Alvarions choice to not make Dual Freq radios, has
allowed 
them to deliver the highest gain from a radio with good clean filtering
of 
the spectrum range.
But nobody has a good excuse for not offering Dual Polarity, there just 
isn't a negative to it.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 1:42 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links


Agreed that Trango has clearly fallen behind...way behind.  However, the
VL
is also far from being an end all solution.  The VL has no mechanism
to
avoid interference (No RX threshold etc.) other than just to retransmit.

Also, the VL does not offer the flexibility to change polarities on the
fly.
In fact Alvarion doesn't even offer an H Polarity SU INT and if you
rotate
the V Polarity SU to H you'll likely have a water penetration problem.

The VL is only available in a 5.3GHz or 5.8GHz solution further limiting
the
flexibility the product offers.  As our HUB sites increase in number and
decrease in required coverage area we have found the 5.3GHz band to be
VERY
valuable.  You do not have that flexibility with VL.

When Alvarion is presented with the freq and polarity suggestions they
simply respond with we're RF purists talking points.  No indication
that
maybe, just maybe those would be good features to add to the product.

We deployed a VL in an above average noisy environment with the latest
v3.x
firmware and the results were dismal to say the least.  Fortunately
upgrading to v4.0 allowed us to salvage the deal, but we still can only
pass
a few Mbps.  This is far less than what a Trango M5830AP can do in a
noisy
environment.

As with most things YMMV.

Best,


Brad



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 12:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

Please know that I am not really trying to trash Trango here. They are
still a viable product in some situations. Alvarion is simply so much
better that it warranted this upgrade. Obviously for heavily used links
feeding towers to other towns I

RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Charles Wu
snip
What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and 
move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to 
effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I 
move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until 
they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its 
better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another 
channel to play on.  And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the 
antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, 
you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. 
The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other 
player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering.  Alvarion gives that 
advantage.
/snip

Tom,

Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking

-Charles

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Brad Belton
lol...too funny Charles.

Tom has a good point and I largely agree, however there are times when push
comes to shove and you have no option but to make a change.  When that
happens running around rotating client antennas 90* all over town really
isn't an option.  With Trango it's a simple command to flip polarities and
even 5GHz bands if needed.  No reason why Alvarion VL can't do that to if
they wanted it.

Best,


Brad

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:24 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

snip
What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and 
move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to 
effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I 
move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until 
they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its 
better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another 
channel to play on.  And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the 
antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, 
you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. 
The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other 
player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering.  Alvarion gives that 
advantage.
/snip

Tom,

Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking

-Charles

---
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Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com 

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RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

2006-09-21 Thread Gino A. Villarini
That's why I asked, to what gear he was switching to ...

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 11:24 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Alvarion VL Fixes Problems with Backhaul Links

snip
What I'm learning is that as my business grows, the abilty to change and 
move (channel options) is becoming less important that the abilty to 
effectively battle it out. The reason is that if every time I hiot noise, I 
move away from the channel, eventually others take those channels., until 
they are all gone, and their is no where else to move to. Sometimes its 
better to claim the space and say, I'm here first, go find another 
channel to play on.  And keep fighting back with better antennas. As the 
antenna grows, you over power the interference, but the important point is, 
you reduce the interference to you and them, by restricting the beamwidth. 
The high power via antenna you go, the more courtious it is to the other 
player to attempt avoidence of signals interfering.  Alvarion gives that 
advantage.
/snip

Tom,

Based on that observation...shouldn't you be looking at Canopy ducking

-Charles

---
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Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com 

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