Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-19 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

Brad, it would be an interesting discussion, to break down what the
various costs are of networks at various scales of deployment.

Even more interesting, would be what kind of business model can be created
which shows profitability servicing residential customers at
price-competitive rates using ANY current offerings from Alvarion.

I know, I know...   This conversation always dies with someone stating you
have to get more revenue per customer than just access costs - something
nobody disagrees with, but if your business models REQUIRES you to sell VOIP
and something else on top of access, then you're not a mainstream ISP
again.  Instead, the conversation jumps to other topics of how to get your
average revenue up.   While 'reliability' and features have a worth that
can be assigned (not sure it can be accurately calcualted), if someone
offered a system that had 100Mbit FDX speeds to the c ustomer, gauranteed
100% reliability, and with all the bells and whistles, but cost $1000 per
customer...  Could the average mainstream WISP make a go of it?

And before we get all confused, I consider mainstream to mean the
following:

1.  provides multiple levels of service - from affordble residential, to
higher end commercial access
2.  is price-competitive with current levels of service and cost commonly
available.
3.  Has appropriate service levels for the vast majority of customers within
the defined geographical area serviced.

I dont' consider myself mainstream in the sense that I am not truly price
competitive and I do not offer the highest end connectivity.

Instead, I am a niche market ISP, because I have a relatively narrow focus
of providing connectivity to people / areas not otherwise served by
broadband.

Which brings me back to the how to be a mainstream WISP again.

The telephone company didn't choose a system with $500 CPE.   They have a
$50 CPE.Same with Cable.   We can all understand the infrastructure
buildout and the considerable cost in building it, but even they grasp the
cost of growth limitation factor.THEY are prepared to wage war at the
residential level, and are doing so.   We need the tools to get into that
war as well, WITHOUT a billionaire backing us.

There's more strategies than just the $50 CPE (I don't expect to see it), to
be sure.   What I see needed is options for all of them.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 Mark, Not to belittle your opinion but many of my customers would say just
 the opposite in that they're actually saving money by deploying Alvarion.
 The cost of owning a network isn't based on cpe costs alone. Brad

 -Original Message-
 From: Mark Koskenmaki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:06 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

 It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to
 serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but
 specialized application.,   It's just too expensive.


 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 --
--
 -
 - Original Message - 
 From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


  Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and
  continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's
 using
  our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on
other
  WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche
 and
  not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad
 
  - Original Message - 
  From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
  
   With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than
   Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the
   past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some
   Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had
the
   only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though
they
   were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone
stating
   another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased
   negative attitude

RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP, arguably OT

2006-04-19 Thread Patrick Leary
 not saying this is necessarily
good or bad, it just is).
- As well, there are still many out there that when they started we were the
only purpose-built UL BWA product on the market (around 1999-2001) and they
are still with us, still growing (Midcoast in Maine, you guys out there? --
That's a pioneer folks. Marlon, remember Jason Simonds? He was THE authority
when we came onto the scene.). Sometimes some of these might have moved away
from us at points, trying cheaper brands, but most come back missing the
total value we offered.

BUT...BUT...do I claim we are the best for all WISPs for all circumstances?
No, not by a long shot. Do I think though that a 1,000 CPE Alvarion WISP is
more valuable from an equity sense than a like WISP of any other UL brand? I
do. A Navini or Aperto UL WISP might make the claim (both vendors make
excellent gear, if more narrow in scope), but it is harder for them to do so
since there are so few such WISPs of any scale, and the largest WISP for
both also have Alvarion in their networks.

Anyway, please excuse the long winded, ra-ra post.

- Patrick

-Original Message-
From: Mark Koskenmaki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 8:46 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


Brad, it would be an interesting discussion, to break down what the
various costs are of networks at various scales of deployment.

Even more interesting, would be what kind of business model can be created
which shows profitability servicing residential customers at
price-competitive rates using ANY current offerings from Alvarion.

I know, I know...   This conversation always dies with someone stating you
have to get more revenue per customer than just access costs - something
nobody disagrees with, but if your business models REQUIRES you to sell VOIP
and something else on top of access, then you're not a mainstream ISP
again.  Instead, the conversation jumps to other topics of how to get your
average revenue up.   While 'reliability' and features have a worth that
can be assigned (not sure it can be accurately calcualted), if someone
offered a system that had 100Mbit FDX speeds to the c ustomer, gauranteed
100% reliability, and with all the bells and whistles, but cost $1000 per
customer...  Could the average mainstream WISP make a go of it?

And before we get all confused, I consider mainstream to mean the
following:

1.  provides multiple levels of service - from affordble residential, to
higher end commercial access
2.  is price-competitive with current levels of service and cost commonly
available.
3.  Has appropriate service levels for the vast majority of customers within
the defined geographical area serviced.

I dont' consider myself mainstream in the sense that I am not truly price
competitive and I do not offer the highest end connectivity.

Instead, I am a niche market ISP, because I have a relatively narrow focus
of providing connectivity to people / areas not otherwise served by
broadband.

Which brings me back to the how to be a mainstream WISP again.

The telephone company didn't choose a system with $500 CPE.   They have a
$50 CPE.Same with Cable.   We can all understand the infrastructure
buildout and the considerable cost in building it, but even they grasp the
cost of growth limitation factor.THEY are prepared to wage war at the
residential level, and are doing so.   We need the tools to get into that
war as well, WITHOUT a billionaire backing us.

There's more strategies than just the $50 CPE (I don't expect to see it), to
be sure.   What I see needed is options for all of them.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 Mark, Not to belittle your opinion but many of my customers would say just
 the opposite in that they're actually saving money by deploying Alvarion.
 The cost of owning a network isn't based on cpe costs alone. Brad

 -Original Message-
 From: Mark Koskenmaki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:06 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

 It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to
 serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but
 specialized application.,   It's just too expensive.


 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 --
--
 -
 - Original Message - 
 From: Brad

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP, arguably OT

2006-04-19 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
 (Soon to change over to Buffalo)
The boss wants to know why I am using something that cost $195 each for a
CPE.


Cause it works.  All of the time.  Service calls are expensive.

Your solution is also (hopefully) an FCC certified solution.  As one grows
and/or sells that becomes much more important.


  Not knowing what the Industry is using I can't explain why I had
rather not go cheaper and that there are folks spending much more.


You may be able to go cheaper.  I just paid $250 for a *g* ap that's
cranking!  (compex, www.cpx.com)  Things are getting cheaper all of the
time.

One of the great things about using standards based gear is that we're never
locked into one solution.  A guy just has to be ware of that thing called a
habit.  I use what I use cause I'm used to it, not because it's the best
solution today :-).

That's why I always TRY other solutions.  A couple of times per year on
average I buy something I don't really think I want to use.  Often though, I
end up using them cause they are better and/or cheaper than what I had been
using.


Gads, I remember when I thought I was doing great Rolling my own for less
than $500.


roflol  I hear that!


Now they think they can get quality for $50.


Not yet.  It's going to get there but not yet.

Honestly, the most important thing for you guys to be doing right now is
supporting our efforts at WISPA.  We're working hard on getting access to
empty TV spectrum AND USF funding!!

Out here Century Tel gets over $100 per phone line in subsidies.  If I could
get that on my 300 wireless subs...


Besides I have looked at the hardware / firmware version compatibility
list and keeping it straight would drive me nutser than I am.


Why bother?  If it's wifi buy a unit or two and try it out.  If they work
use them, if not toss 'em.

If it's not wifi you just have to buy it all from the same source.



I really have mixed feelings about open source in this setting but maybe I
am wrong.


See the above list of priorities.


I don't see any problems with it in MDU setups but I am really set in my
ways.


We all get that way when we're old and crotchety!  ducking


Are my gut feeling all wrong here?
 I really value your opinion,


We've been over this ol' friend!  You and I are on different sides of the
isle.  I want everything simple and manufacturer built.  The kind of stuff
my wife could fix with a phone call or two to tech support.  I'm willing to
give up control and/or efficiency for it.

I can live without the control (it's hard for a technogeek but I do have
other things to worry about and I REALLY need the network to remain simple).

On the efficiency side, it's just too cheap to put in more capacity to worry
about system usage type stuff.  If something's overloaded I'll just put in a
new system, move a few over to that one and put all the new customers on it
too.
*

This is what I love about a good mailing list.  It attracts good people with 
good ideas.  It's a trade show seminar every day!  Sure wish I had more time 
to spend here.  Installs are picking up again and I'll soon be back to a 
couple of hours per day of emails and little or none of it on anyone's list. 
I have emails yet unread going back to 2004!   sigh


chowness,
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Patrick Leary [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 10:42 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP, arguably OT




As we all know, this can take the form of an almost religious debate,
which I'm going to try to avoid (and I'll ask Brad or others from Alvarion
to avoid the same). We here have a strong tendency toward passion as it
relates to this market, and to be sure, we feel a strong sense of pride in
the role our company has played in building this market. We also way too
often take it personally when our brand gets attacked or we get accused of
being anti-WISP when we know how much we have personally, from a heart and
soul perspective, invested in this market. Mark, know that I am DEFINITELY
NOT saying you are doing either of those things, your questions are fair 
and

should always be asked and each WISP has to find the mix of answers that
works best for him or her.

That said, our success as a company in the early WISP days has directly 
led
to the many and broad range of choices WISPs have today across many 
brands.

That's all good, even for us, since it denotes the existence of a robust,
worthwhile market.

What we can say with absolute certainty is that there are many WISPs that
have successfully scaled using our products, most having migrated from 
other
brands. Whether your

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-19 Thread Dylan Oliver
On 4/19/06, Mark Koskenmaki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The telephone company didn't choose a system with $500 CPE. They have a$50 CPE.Same with Cable. We can all understand the infrastructurebuildout and the considerable cost in building it, but even they grasp the
cost of growth limitation factor.THEY are prepared to wage war at theresidential level, and are doing so. We need the tools to get into thatwar as well, WITHOUT a billionaire backing us.
There's more strategies than just the $50 CPE (I don't expect to see it), tobe sure. What I see needed is options for all of them.I'll bet they were closer to $500 than $50 before they started ordering in kilopacks.
Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC
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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-19 Thread Mark Koskenmaki




They started ordering with initial orders in the 
10's of thousands... or maybe more.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061personal correspondence 
to: mark at neofast dot netsales inquiries to: purchasing at 
neofast dot netFast Internet, NO 
WIRES!-

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Dylan 
  Oliver 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 7:53 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a 
  new WISP
  On 4/19/06, Mark Koskenmaki 
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  The 
telephone company didn't choose a system with $500 CPE. They 
have a$50 CPE.Same with Cable. We 
can all understand the infrastructurebuildout and the considerable cost 
in building it, but even they grasp the "cost of growth" limitation 
factor.THEY are prepared to wage war at 
theresidential level, and are doing so. We need the tools to 
get into thatwar as well, WITHOUT a billionaire backing 
us.There's more strategies than just the $50 CPE (I don't expect to 
see it), tobe sure. What I see needed is options for all of 
them.I'll bet they were closer to $500 than $50 
  before they started ordering in kilopacks. Best,-- Dylan 
  OliverPrimaverity, LLC 
  
  

  -- WISPA Wireless List: 
  wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: 
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RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-18 Thread Brad Larson
Mark, Not to belittle your opinion but many of my customers would say just
the opposite in that they're actually saving money by deploying Alvarion.
The cost of owning a network isn't based on cpe costs alone. Brad 

-Original Message-
From: Mark Koskenmaki [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2006 2:06 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to
serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but
specialized application.,   It's just too expensive.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and
 continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's
using
 our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other
 WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche
and
 not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad

 - Original Message - 
 From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 
  With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than
  Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the
  past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some
  Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the
  only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they
  were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating
  another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased
  negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home
  the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our
  entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great
  ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such
  negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical
  WISP operator and Alvarion.

 Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market
 WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist.  They have
 certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't
 make mainstream WISP last mile equipment.   I have been expecting to see
 them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything.

 The ball's in thier court.


 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 --
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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-17 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
Oh, you're only talking about using thier backhauls?

I'm not trying to argue this, just understand...   As I had followed the
conversation up to this point, I was under the impression we were discussing
the last mile connectivity, rather than your backhauls / infrastructure.

As you say, they do make some viable products for that...

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 Mainstream WISPs need good backhaul to interconnect tower locations.
 Whatever a WISP uses I am guessing it does not cost much different than
 what I am choosing to use in the application I am using. I feel I made a
 good decision. You do not I made a good choice. I think others could
 benefit from choosing the path I chose. You do not. Let's leave it at
that.
 Scriv


 Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

 Mainstream = affordable residential.
 
 The vast majority of available customers for WISP's are residential, and
if
 you can make a business case for using any current alvarion product to
 provide residential broadband at reasonable prices, I'd love to see it.
 
 Niche WISP's are ones that are only high end customers, or business only,
 etc.
 
 
 
 
 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

---
-
 -
 - Original Message - 
 From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 10:58 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
 
 
 I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will
 save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive
 than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and
 wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree
 that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can.
 If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then
 Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance
 PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option.
 With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is
 out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the
 pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot.
 Scriv
 
 
 Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
 
 
 
 It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting
 
 
 to
 
 
 serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but
 specialized application.,   It's just too expensive.
 
 
 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 
 

--
-
 
 
 -
 
 
 -
 - Original Message - 
 From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and
 continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's
 
 
 
 
 using
 
 
 
 
 our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on
 
 
 other
 
 
 WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're
niche
 
 
 
 
 and
 
 
 
 
 not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
 
 
 
 
 With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than
 Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the
 past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some
 Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had
the
 only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though
they
 were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone
 
 
 stating
 
 
 another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased
 negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive
 
 
 home
 
 
 the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from
our
 entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great
 ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such
 negativity. I am hoping to see this division

RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-17 Thread danlist
What is the max throughput in a PTMP setup?

Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201
1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
 Of John Scrivner
 Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:58 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will
 save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive
 than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and
 wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree
 that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can.
 If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then
 Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance
 PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option.
 With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is
 out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the
 pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot.
 Scriv
 
 
 Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
 
 It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to
 serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but
 specialized application.,   It's just too expensive.
 
 
 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 
 -
 - Original Message -
 From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
 
 
 Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and
 continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's
 
 
 using
 
 
 our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other
 WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche
 
 
 and
 
 
 not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad
 
 - Original Message -
 From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
 
 
 With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than
 Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the
 past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some
 Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the
 only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they
 were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating
 another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased
 negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home
 the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our
 entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great
 ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such
 negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical
 WISP operator and Alvarion.
 
 
 Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market
 WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist.  They have
 certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't
 make mainstream WISP last mile equipment.   I have been expecting to see
 them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything.
 
 The ball's in thier court.
 
 
 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 --
 
 
 --
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-17 Thread John Scrivner
I have heard that the current Alvarion VL firmware handles roughly 27 
Mbps aggregate throughput.  The latest Alvarion VL firmware will be out 
next month. Tests are showing 36 Mbps per sector max aggregate 
throughput (upstream + downstream). The real advantage for me will be 
the 30,000 packets per second capability. Estimates are now at roughly 
300 simultaneous phone calls per sector. I want to be able to offer 
phone service in the near future. The higher packet count allows for 
each sector to handle more simultaneous customer sessions even if they 
involve much smaller packets. I have seen sectors brought down to very 
low capacity due to floods of little packets. I am guessing most 
consumer gear maxes out in the 5000 packet per second range. Does anyone 
have any real numbers on this?

Scriv


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


What is the max throughput in a PTMP setup?

Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201
1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of John Scrivner
Sent: Monday, April 17, 2006 1:58 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will
save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive
than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and
wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree
that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can.
If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then
Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance
PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option.
With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is
out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the
pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot.
Scriv


Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

   


It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to
serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but
specialized application.,   It's just too expensive.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message -
From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




 


Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and
continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's


   


using


 


our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other
WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche


   


and


 


not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad

- Original Message -
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




   


With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than
Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the
past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some
Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the
only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they
were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating
another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased
negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home
the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our
entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great
ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such
negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical
WISP operator and Alvarion.


 


Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market
WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist.  They have
certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't
make mainstream WISP last mile equipment.   I have been expecting to see
them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything.

The ball's in thier court.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
--


   


--


 


-

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RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-17 Thread Charles Wu
And to add version 4.0 changes the rules again. Stay tuned. Brad

Hi Brad,

That statement has piqued my curiosity
Care to elaborate? (on or offlist)

-Charles

---
CWLab
Technology Architects
http://www.cwlab.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brad Larson
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 8:12 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP





-Original Message-
From: Jeffrey Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 2:44 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


agreed, VL is far from carrier grade

On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:16 AM, Charles Wu wrote:

 snip
 Motorola designed Canopy specifically for the WISP market, not the 
 carrier market.

 Alvarion designed VL specifically for the carrier market, not the WISP 
 market. /snip

 Ah, the mis-perceptions of the rugged metal enclosure =)

 Steve, can you please explain why carriers would prefer a CSMA/CA
 over a
 scheduled (WiMAX-like) MAC?

 Thanks

 -Charles

 ---
 CWLab
 Technology Architects
 http://www.cwlab.com



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless-
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Steve Stroh
 Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:05 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP






 Thanks,

 Steve

 On Apr 11, 2006, at 18:55, Dylan Oliver wrote:

 How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about 
 Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola 
 produces far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will - 
 so where did they go wrong with Canopy?

  Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has
 trouble
 sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John?

  Best,
 --
 Dylan Oliver
 Primaverity, LLC--

 ---

 Steve Stroh
 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com

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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-16 Thread Dylan Oliver
On a related note, Raising Capital: Get the Money You Need to Grow Your Business is an excellent book.
Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC
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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-16 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
Mainstream = affordable residential.

The vast majority of available customers for WISP's are residential, and if
you can make a business case for using any current alvarion product to
provide residential broadband at reasonable prices, I'd love to see it.

Niche WISP's are ones that are only high end customers, or business only,
etc.




North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will
 save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive
 than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and
 wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree
 that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can.
 If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then
 Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance
 PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option.
 With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is
 out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the
 pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot.
 Scriv


 Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

 It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting
to
 serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but
 specialized application.,   It's just too expensive.
 
 
 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

---
-
 -
 - Original Message - 
 From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
 
 
 Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and
 continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's
 
 
 using
 
 
 our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on
other
 WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche
 
 
 and
 
 
 not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
 
 
 With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than
 Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the
 past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some
 Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the
 only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they
 were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone
stating
 another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased
 negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive
home
 the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our
 entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great
 ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such
 negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical
 WISP operator and Alvarion.
 
 
 Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche
market
 WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist.  They have
 certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they
don't
 make mainstream WISP last mile equipment.   I have been expecting to
see
 them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything.
 
 The ball's in thier court.
 
 
 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

--
 
 
 --
 
 
 -
 
 -- 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
 
 
 
 
 
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 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-16 Thread John Scrivner
Mainstream WISPs need good backhaul to interconnect tower locations. 
Whatever a WISP uses I am guessing it does not cost much different than 
what I am choosing to use in the application I am using. I feel I made a 
good decision. You do not I made a good choice. I think others could 
benefit from choosing the path I chose. You do not. Let's leave it at that.

Scriv


Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


Mainstream = affordable residential.

The vast majority of available customers for WISP's are residential, and if
you can make a business case for using any current alvarion product to
provide residential broadband at reasonable prices, I'd love to see it.

Niche WISP's are ones that are only high end customers, or business only,
etc.




North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2006 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 


I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will
save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive
than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and
wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree
that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can.
If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then
Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance
PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option.
With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is
out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the
pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot.
Scriv


Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

   


It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting
 


to
 


serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but
specialized application.,   It's just too expensive.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 


---
   


-
 


-
- Original Message - 
From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




 


Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and
continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's


   


using


 


our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on
   


other
 


WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche


   


and


 


not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad

- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




   


With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than
Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the
past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some
Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the
only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they
were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone
 


stating
 


another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased
negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive
 


home
 


the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our
entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great
ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such
negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical
WISP operator and Alvarion.


 


Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche
   


market
 


WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist.  They have
certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they
   


don't
 


make mainstream WISP last mile equipment.   I have been expecting to
   


see
 


them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything.

The ball's in thier court.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
   


--
 

   


--


 


-

--
WISPA Wireless List: wireless

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-15 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to
serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but
specialized application.,   It's just too expensive.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and
 continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's
using
 our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other
 WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche
and
 not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad

 - Original Message - 
 From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 
  With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than
  Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the
  past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some
  Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the
  only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they
  were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating
  another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased
  negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home
  the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our
  entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great
  ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such
  negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical
  WISP operator and Alvarion.

 Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market
 WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist.  They have
 certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't
 make mainstream WISP last mile equipment.   I have been expecting to see
 them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything.

 The ball's in thier court.


 North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
 personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
 sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
 Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
 --
--
 -

 -- 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-15 Thread John Scrivner
I disagree. I weighed the performance specs and price and I feel I will 
save money with this platform. If you are saying it is more expensive 
than other platforms then you are right but the performance boost and 
wider coverage per cell make up for much of the higher cost.. I disagree 
that mainstream WISPs cannot afford this. I know most of you guys can. 
If you have ANY money behind you or ANY borrowing power at all then 
Alvarion has a good option for offering access to a high performance 
PtoMP backhaul or service to higher end clients. This is a good option. 
With that said I am not saying it is the ONLY option but saying this is 
out of reach of mainstream WISPs is not a fair statement. Check the 
pricing and see if this can suit your needs before you assume it cannot.

Scriv


Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


It is not financially feasible for a mainstream WISP, who is attempting to
serve all types of internet customers to rely on BA for anything but
specialized application.,   It's just too expensive.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: Brad Larson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2006 5:53 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 


Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and
continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's
   


using
 


our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other
WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche
   


and
 


not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad

- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


   


With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than
Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the
past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some
Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the
only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they
were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating
another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased
negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home
the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our
entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great
ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such
negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical
WISP operator and Alvarion.
 


Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market
WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist.  They have
certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't
make mainstream WISP last mile equipment.   I have been expecting to see
them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything.

The ball's in thier court.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!
--
   


--
 


-

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RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-14 Thread Brad Larson
Mark, Come on.The whole BreezeAccess product family was made and
continues to get upgrades for WISP's. There are well over 1,000 WISP's using
our gear in the states alone. You won't find many of them here or on other
WISP threads but it doesn't mean they don't exist. Saying we're niche and
not mainstream and there is some division is a real strech. Brad 

- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



 With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than
 Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the
 past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some
 Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the
 only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they
 were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating
 another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased
 negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home
 the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our
 entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great
 ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such
 negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical
 WISP operator and Alvarion.

Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market
WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist.  They have
certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't
make mainstream WISP last mile equipment.   I have been expecting to see
them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything.

The ball's in thier court.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-

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RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-14 Thread Brad Larson
A scheduled mac alone does not make something carrier grade. I can list a
bunch of manufacturers that have polling mac's yet you'll never find them
hanging on a carriers depolyment but you'll find lots of Alvarion
BreezeAccess VL. And to add version 4.0 changes the rules again.
Stay tuned. Brad


-Original Message-
From: Jeffrey Thomas [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 2:44 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


agreed, VL is far from carrier grade

On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:16 AM, Charles Wu wrote:

 snip
 Motorola designed Canopy specifically for the WISP market, not the
 carrier market.

 Alvarion designed VL specifically for the carrier market, not the WISP
 market.
 /snip

 Ah, the mis-perceptions of the rugged metal enclosure =)

 Steve, can you please explain why carriers would prefer a CSMA/CA  
 over a
 scheduled (WiMAX-like) MAC?

 Thanks

 -Charles

 ---
 CWLab
 Technology Architects
 http://www.cwlab.com



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Steve Stroh
 Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:05 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP






 Thanks,

 Steve

 On Apr 11, 2006, at 18:55, Dylan Oliver wrote:

 How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about
 Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola
 produces far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will -
 so where did they go wrong with Canopy?

  Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has  
 trouble
 sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John?

  Best,
 --
 Dylan Oliver
 Primaverity, LLC--

 ---

 Steve Stroh
 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com

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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-13 Thread Tom DeReggi
, which is what FTP is 
designed to do.


I argue that FTP is one of the best tests for testing link quality, because 
if link quality is poor, you see it right away in performance.


However, it takes a lot of over head for FTP. Slow PCs may not be able to 
reach full link speed running a typical windows based FTP program.  Thats 
why programs like IPerf are good, they have low overhead, and still perform 
at pretty high speeds on slower PCs.


When critisizing StarOS's speed tester, I was not saying it was not good. I 
was more asking if its results were compared against FTP in high packet loss 
situations? If his test uses similar techiques as FTP not jsut TCP, it very 
well may gives results equivellent to real world FTP transfers.  But I don't 
know that.  Lab tests, and tests under significant packet loss could have 
much different results comparing Native TCP tests with FTP tests.


I also like Iperf because of its abilty to change packet size, and see how 
that effects throughput. Large packets can bring out more packet loss from 
falws in link. However, to small packet loss also can have negative effect. 
Sometimes both tets are needed to get a clear picture of what the end user 
is feeling. Its not easy being certain, gusessing what performance the 
consumer is feeling, when you are remote at your office desk.  What do you 
do when you thing performance should be good, but the custoemr says its not? 
Do you do a ttuck roll to prove it? Not if you have the right tools, to test 
all the variations.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



Tom,

I am confused about your testing. If you are testing a link, and it has 2% 
packet loss, then the link is going to run 2%-4% slower due to the loss, 
therefore the results will reflect that loss.


Ever run a speed test across a link with 50% loss? If it's set to a 2Mbps 
connection, you get about 1Mbps when testing. It's still a 1Mbps 
connection, even with packet loss. Even using Trango's Linktest, it shows 
the maximum speed of the link BASED ON THE LOSS across the link.


Am I missing something? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:


Ok, assuming Real World Test win.

How does your TCP test handle packet loss? Does it slow the test down to 
attempt to reduce packet loss until its gone?
Thats what real world applications do, like FTP, and the real performance 
subscribers see, regardless of the Link's abilty to pass test traffic 
faster.  I want to see the performance my customers experience.


If your link has 2% packetloss, what impact will that have on customer's 
performance with various applications? Will your TCP tests show that. 
I'm not passing judgement, I'll let you make that judgement you wrote it. 
But my TCP tests (Iperf) do not get me that information.  I've lost 
customers insisting that their link was operating perfectly based on TCP 
speed test, only to learn that the custoemr was right, and their 
performance was getting destroyed by packet loss. This is an important 
issue with Wireless, when packet loss is possible, due to interference 
and environmental condition changes.



WRAP board were always in the 23
to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps,



Our testing never saw that.


Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000
KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client.



I don't contest that, based on a lab environemnt without packetloss.
Did you repeat those tests, introducing interference/packet loss into the 
link?
2% packet loss with FTP, can bring your performance of a 25 mbps link 
down to 100 kbps.

Does your test, replicate those results?

I agree that TCP is a preferred test for a clean lab environment test, to 
test maximum obtainable speed.
Butwho cares about that? What I want to know is what speed my link in the 
field is capable of doing, based on the conditions it is deployed in.


I'm not in the business of delivering commodity Up-To Burstable Services.


I am always amazed at how labels get applied.  To call something a
lower grade product



Understand, I was not saying your product is lower grade than other, buts 
saying that your product is not being as good as it can be, if it had 
more types of testing tools. Its what, a days work, to add Iperf to OS 
image?


Results are what count, not


how pretty you look or how good you sound.



But how do you know what your results are? If tests don't test 
accurately?



It is strange
to have to lie to the customer to get a high grade product rating.
Maybe we don't need that, and for the most part my users don't want it
either.  They don't want packet loss either.  Most of them prefer to
have the whole file delivered intact.



This is where you are loosing me. I'm

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-13 Thread Tom DeReggi

Travis,

Its real easy to demonstrate my point with Atlas PtP gear.
You can hard set at various modulations, and start lowering power, until 
linktest shows the percentage of packetloss you want to test.
Linktest is great to measure loss to tell when you got it at the right level 
for testing.
(not nearly as easy with 802.11 gear to test, as hard to measure what the 
packet loss actually is at a given moment for accurate comparisons).

Of course disable ARQ for testing.
Then do the FTP.
Just add 3-5% packet loss, and watch how slow FTP gets. The more hops you 
have between the Host and CLient FTP machines, the worse the performance 
gets affected by the packet loss.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



Tom,

I am confused about your testing. If you are testing a link, and it has 2% 
packet loss, then the link is going to run 2%-4% slower due to the loss, 
therefore the results will reflect that loss.


Ever run a speed test across a link with 50% loss? If it's set to a 2Mbps 
connection, you get about 1Mbps when testing. It's still a 1Mbps 
connection, even with packet loss. Even using Trango's Linktest, it shows 
the maximum speed of the link BASED ON THE LOSS across the link.


Am I missing something? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:


Ok, assuming Real World Test win.

How does your TCP test handle packet loss? Does it slow the test down to 
attempt to reduce packet loss until its gone?
Thats what real world applications do, like FTP, and the real performance 
subscribers see, regardless of the Link's abilty to pass test traffic 
faster.  I want to see the performance my customers experience.


If your link has 2% packetloss, what impact will that have on customer's 
performance with various applications? Will your TCP tests show that. 
I'm not passing judgement, I'll let you make that judgement you wrote it. 
But my TCP tests (Iperf) do not get me that information.  I've lost 
customers insisting that their link was operating perfectly based on TCP 
speed test, only to learn that the custoemr was right, and their 
performance was getting destroyed by packet loss. This is an important 
issue with Wireless, when packet loss is possible, due to interference 
and environmental condition changes.



WRAP board were always in the 23
to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps,



Our testing never saw that.


Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000
KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client.



I don't contest that, based on a lab environemnt without packetloss.
Did you repeat those tests, introducing interference/packet loss into the 
link?
2% packet loss with FTP, can bring your performance of a 25 mbps link 
down to 100 kbps.

Does your test, replicate those results?

I agree that TCP is a preferred test for a clean lab environment test, to 
test maximum obtainable speed.
Butwho cares about that? What I want to know is what speed my link in the 
field is capable of doing, based on the conditions it is deployed in.


I'm not in the business of delivering commodity Up-To Burstable Services.


I am always amazed at how labels get applied.  To call something a
lower grade product



Understand, I was not saying your product is lower grade than other, buts 
saying that your product is not being as good as it can be, if it had 
more types of testing tools. Its what, a days work, to add Iperf to OS 
image?


Results are what count, not


how pretty you look or how good you sound.



But how do you know what your results are? If tests don't test 
accurately?



It is strange
to have to lie to the customer to get a high grade product rating.
Maybe we don't need that, and for the most part my users don't want it
either.  They don't want packet loss either.  Most of them prefer to
have the whole file delivered intact.



This is where you are loosing me. I'm not aware of anyone that lies to 
give a higher grade offering.
My comments are based on results I see in the field with live 
deployments, that cost me clients and save me clients.

I don't sell product or profit from what product user's select.

I am not judging your test tool, I have never performed test measuring 
the accuracy of your testing tool. I am simply asking you the real hard 
question, for you to evaluate whether your test tool, method considers 
all the factors that need to be tested. You tell me, but prove it, with 
an explanation of how your tool handles it.


Lonnie, its no big deal to us, we got a solution. We got Iperf running at 
every hop cell router, and have XP versions of Iperf to Email to our 
subscribers when tests need to be performed.  Not all WISPs are in that 
position. Its to your advantage, to add the tools

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-13 Thread Jeffrey Thomas

agreed, VL is far from carrier grade

On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:16 AM, Charles Wu wrote:


snip
Motorola designed Canopy specifically for the WISP market, not the
carrier market.

Alvarion designed VL specifically for the carrier market, not the WISP
market.
/snip

Ah, the mis-perceptions of the rugged metal enclosure =)

Steve, can you please explain why carriers would prefer a CSMA/CA  
over a

scheduled (WiMAX-like) MAC?

Thanks

-Charles

---
CWLab
Technology Architects
http://www.cwlab.com



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:wireless- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Steve Stroh
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP






Thanks,

Steve

On Apr 11, 2006, at 18:55, Dylan Oliver wrote:


How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about
Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola
produces far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will -
so where did they go wrong with Canopy?

 Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has  
trouble

sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John?

 Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC--


---

Steve Stroh
425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com

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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-13 Thread Jeffrey Thomas

Steve,

What defines something as carrier grade should also be:

1. Scalablity
2. True QOS ( QOS performance in the upstream and downstream )


On Apr 12, 2006, at 9:38 AM, Steve Stroh wrote:



John:

Here's my working definition of carrier grade:

Designed for use by carriers
Suitable for use by carriers
Sufficiently reliable for use by carriers

There is MUCH that goes into a product designed for use by  
carriers. It's expensive and a tough market, so a lot of vendors  
don't try. Here are just a few features that are carrier grade  
requirements from my perspective:

* Designed for use in all conceivable weather elements
* Designed for long operational use with minimal attention (in the  
WISP market, one measure is that it doesn't reboot itself, or  
require regular reboots)

* Designed for easy and fast repair
* The vendor stocks ample replacement units deployed geographically  
for fast supply.
* Support expertise by the vendor is readily available (excellent,  
easy-to-access tech support). Note that such support is almost  
never free, and carriers don't expect it to be. When they need  
help, they need it NOW and need to get their systems back online  
fast. (Carriers often have mandated time-to-repair maximums by  
regulatory agencies.)
* Subtle features like strain relief on all connectors, meeting the  
telecom industry requirements for rack mounting, built-in  
protection for power line surges and lightning.

* Superb monitoring and remote control capabilities
* Offer continuous VERY-in-depth training programs at the factory  
so that carriers can get their personnel FULLY up to speed on a  
product. Again, this almost never free, and carriers don't expect  
it to be.
* Offer continuous product improvement, bug fixes, recalls when  
appropriate, and does so proactively when an issue is identified,  
and does so in a way to minimize downtime such as offering  
proactive replacement units.


Etc.

Regarding Alvarion versus WISPs... it's pretty simple. By  
offering more like carrier-grade products, Alvarion saw FAR more  
market demand by carriers, public safety, enterprise than they saw  
in the WISP market. They are willing to sell to WISPs, but few  
WISPs are willing to take the time to truly understand Alvarion's  
value proposition which involves FAR more than mere price of the  
product. You've finally come around to this view John, and you'll  
discover that you have a lot of company in that view - which isn't  
(widely) represented on this list or necessarily within WISPA.  
That's because operators who have spent the money for quality gear  
like Alvarion's generally don't have NEARLY as many issues with  
such gear that require group support... and such operators don't  
wish to associate their businesses with the we'll just hack up a  
Linksys AP and have cheap gear attitude that a lot of people in  
the telecom industry equate with WISPs.


Is Alvarion arrogant? Yes, at times, and certain individuals. But I  
think that's mostly a lot of pride and recognition that they were  
one of the pioneering companies in making it possible to offer  
carrier-grade services in license-exempt spectrum - something that  
the telecom industry KNEW could NOT be done. It's also the case  
that Alvarion offers the broadest product line in Broadband  
Wireless Internet Access - licensed and license-exempt, fixed and  
mobile, high-capacity and low-capacity, etc. Alvarion has very  
capable competitors in various segments, but I can't think of any  
company that competes head-to-head with Alvarion in all segments,  
even Airspan.



Thanks,

Steve

On Apr 11, 2006, at 20:51, John Scrivner wrote:

I decided to do some reading on the term carrier-grade and have  
found the following to be what is considered a definition in  
relation to our industry. One random source on the web refers to  
this as,  A term that implies a system that is designed to have  
increased availability and timeliness to meet the requirements of  
a modern communications network element. I saw this quantified on  
one site as being, a network device which has a sustained uptime  
of over 99.999%. This was as close to a quantifiable definition as  
I have found though it gives no length of time or other parameters  
to use for calculation of this percentage. According to Hughes  
Software Systems in regard to Carrier-grade they state that  
equipment can only be considered Carrier-grade after several  
years of real field use shows that it is highly available and  
reliable. In the end it is a very subjective term and one I will  
not use in the future unless I can quantify the classification.  
Basically there is no firm definition but I have heard of Alvarion  
referred to as Carrier-grade by others and mistakingly assumed  
it was a clearly defined characteristic. My apologies for this  
error in wording.


With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform  
than Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no 

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-13 Thread Travis Johnson
 to correct poor data transmission. It does not follow jsut the 
default TCP protocol code. It injects decssions from its application 
level code. We have noticed specifically with FTP, the rate it slows 
down is tremendously more than just the amount of packet loss on the 
radio. Thats not a bad thing, people want their data delivered in its 
entirety error free, which is what FTP is designed to do.


I argue that FTP is one of the best tests for testing link quality, 
because if link quality is poor, you see it right away in performance.


However, it takes a lot of over head for FTP. Slow PCs may not be able 
to reach full link speed running a typical windows based FTP program.  
Thats why programs like IPerf are good, they have low overhead, and 
still perform at pretty high speeds on slower PCs.


When critisizing StarOS's speed tester, I was not saying it was not 
good. I was more asking if its results were compared against FTP in 
high packet loss situations? If his test uses similar techiques as FTP 
not jsut TCP, it very well may gives results equivellent to real world 
FTP transfers.  But I don't know that.  Lab tests, and tests under 
significant packet loss could have much different results comparing 
Native TCP tests with FTP tests.


I also like Iperf because of its abilty to change packet size, and see 
how that effects throughput. Large packets can bring out more packet 
loss from falws in link. However, to small packet loss also can have 
negative effect. Sometimes both tets are needed to get a clear picture 
of what the end user is feeling. Its not easy being certain, gusessing 
what performance the consumer is feeling, when you are remote at your 
office desk.  What do you do when you thing performance should be 
good, but the custoemr says its not? Do you do a ttuck roll to prove 
it? Not if you have the right tools, to test all the variations.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



Tom,

I am confused about your testing. If you are testing a link, and it 
has 2% packet loss, then the link is going to run 2%-4% slower due to 
the loss, therefore the results will reflect that loss.


Ever run a speed test across a link with 50% loss? If it's set to a 
2Mbps connection, you get about 1Mbps when testing. It's still a 
1Mbps connection, even with packet loss. Even using Trango's 
Linktest, it shows the maximum speed of the link BASED ON THE LOSS 
across the link.


Am I missing something? I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:


Ok, assuming Real World Test win.

How does your TCP test handle packet loss? Does it slow the test 
down to attempt to reduce packet loss until its gone?
Thats what real world applications do, like FTP, and the real 
performance subscribers see, regardless of the Link's abilty to pass 
test traffic faster.  I want to see the performance my customers 
experience.


If your link has 2% packetloss, what impact will that have on 
customer's performance with various applications? Will your TCP 
tests show that. I'm not passing judgement, I'll let you make that 
judgement you wrote it. But my TCP tests (Iperf) do not get me that 
information.  I've lost customers insisting that their link was 
operating perfectly based on TCP speed test, only to learn that the 
custoemr was right, and their performance was getting destroyed by 
packet loss. This is an important issue with Wireless, when packet 
loss is possible, due to interference and environmental condition 
changes.



WRAP board were always in the 23
to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps,




Our testing never saw that.


Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000
KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client.




I don't contest that, based on a lab environemnt without packetloss.
Did you repeat those tests, introducing interference/packet loss 
into the link?
2% packet loss with FTP, can bring your performance of a 25 mbps 
link down to 100 kbps.

Does your test, replicate those results?

I agree that TCP is a preferred test for a clean lab environment 
test, to test maximum obtainable speed.
Butwho cares about that? What I want to know is what speed my link 
in the field is capable of doing, based on the conditions it is 
deployed in.


I'm not in the business of delivering commodity Up-To Burstable 
Services.



I am always amazed at how labels get applied.  To call something a
lower grade product




Understand, I was not saying your product is lower grade than other, 
buts saying that your product is not being as good as it can be, if 
it had more types of testing tools. Its what, a days work, to add 
Iperf to OS image?


Results are what count, not


how pretty you look or how good you sound.




But how do you know

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-13 Thread Tim Wolfe

I was thinking I would be the devils advocate, and ask this question:
Why go thru all the hassle of learning Mikrotik(Which, IMHO, Is a PITA), 
when You can save the learning curve, and use Tranzeo, Deliberant or 
even HighGain Antennas solutions that are cheap and easy to administer 
and a M0n0wall box at the NOC?. When You combine the assembly required 
for all the WRAP boards, buying the pigtails, and all of the other good 
stuff that goes along with being a MT shop, learning the management GUI 
etc., You could be up and running in no time with a M0n0wall box and 
gear shipped directly from the OEM's all ready assembled and ready to 
go. And M0n0wall is very easy compared to MT, and if You were so 
inclined, You could use the default settings and have a fairly decent 
network with an old P III and 512M of RAM, which is MUCH cheaper than 
any MT box. Granted, MT has a few more features, but the average WISP 
doesn't need half the stuff that is in there. Any thoughts?


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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-13 Thread Tom DeReggi

Travis,

I agree my explanation is not complete regarding detail working of the 
protocols, and see your logic in your response, that what would FTP do if 
TCP already took care of it already.  However, it doesn't work that way 
exactly. Does TCP fully take care of it? There are limits on how TCP works, 
and to truly understand them, I suggest you read the RFC, as its just been 
to long, since I read them, to explain them well.  I don't need to remember 
the details anymore, just that the phenominon exists to watch out for. Part 
of it has to do with the reaction time TCP has to scale up and down speed. 
And when 802.11, waits for retransmission, how does TCP react to that? They 
have different timing rules in their decissions. I don't know the answers, 
why.


Personally, I feel its the developer's job to figure that stuff out. My job 
is to sell radios. My job is to disclose real world findings, so it keeps 
the developers on their toes to consider everything they need to consider in 
doing their job.


All I can tell is, create 3-5% packet loss consistently on a link, and 
perform an FTP, and watch the degregation escalate.  And then watch and see 
if Iperf's TCP performance matches. Or for that matter perform a web based 
speed test, which can not be recognized as accurate, but regardless, the 
customer will through the Dial-UP speed results in your face, creating 
unnecessary support headache, so its relevant how the link responds to them.


I have two tasks slated on my RD table.

1) Compare Alvarion and Mikrotik throughput in noisy environments.
2) Compare FTP and IPERF TCP tests over 802.11 gear, at various packet 
losses, and chart. (most of my real world is with TDD).


But I probably won't get to it for a while, things are backed up and busy on 
the install front.


I'd love someone to join this thread, that has detailed knowledge of the 
protocols, that could give a detailed explanation for us.

Or step up to the plate to run the tests sooner, and report the results.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2006 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



Tom,

Again, I am confused. You state that TCP will correct for packet loss it 
detects... so in that case, FTP would never see the packet loss because 
TCP is already correcting for the loss.


My point was, if you have a link with 2% loss, it will show up doing a TCP 
test by being slower than expected.


Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:


Travis,


Am I missing something?



Yes you are.  The results you are explaining are appropriate for Layer2 
testing and UDP testing.

(2% packet loss = 2% reduction in speed)

Its different with TCP and way different with FTP.

Understanding its 1:30am, my mind is shot after a 20 hour work day, and 
my theory may be a little weak as explanation, however the gist of it 
is


TCP is a transmission Control Protocol, meaning it controls the flow of 
data when and how fast to transmit.  Or in other words, detects when 
their is packet loss, and slows it self down when it occurs. If a PC 
sends data faster than the Link capacity, packet loss occurs. All TCP 
links have some level of packet loss. For example, common Bandwdith 
management programs purposely drop packets (thus packet loss) in order to 
slow down transmission of data to a specific speed. What keep a PC from 
sending 10 mbps of data across a 1 mbps link? The Answer is TCP. It slows 
down transmission to meet the speed of the link, determining that based 
on when packet loss occurs. We are talking very very low amounts of 
packetloss, for TCP to tune itself for error free transmission.  However, 
when there is a large amount of packet loss (such as 2 %), it slows 
transmission way down, as TCP tries to resend lost packets, and instead 
of it getting done at the radio, it has to go all the way back to the PC 
to determine when data was not delivered and when needed retransmission. 
This is because transmission is connection based with TCP, a connection 
between PC and end destination. So if a packet is lost on a hop, there 
may be many hops of packets to determine that re-transmission is needed, 
adding large amounts of latency, slowing transmission to a screaching 
halt.


Now of course Trango solves this problem with its ARQ feature. When you 
get 2% packetloss, the link speed goes down 2% plus a small overhead 
amount, and the end applications, PCs, and other OSI layers dont even 
know the packetloss occured, as Trango transparently corrected it.


Many have argued a method of ARQ is part of the 802.11 protocol for 
reliable delivery, which is true, but the performance hit in terms of 
throughput and latency is huge. Not to mention some faster versions of 
802.11 (a/g) may even get rid of some of those features in order to 
deliver the faster speeds

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-13 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Get a 2.4 ap and a couple of cpe kits and do a small test install.  If it 
looks good buy more.


One of the first things we'd need to know in order to really help you out 
would be more info on what your competition is doing

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Richard Goodin [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 8:30 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 
802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby (about 5 
miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I have a 50' tower, and 
it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal 
antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it to death.  My best 
price is $400 from Lime Light.  And I've built a couple of servers, 
acquired some switches and a router.  The Router is a Cisco 1750.


My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to keep 
interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My environment 
includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.


Lee


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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-13 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
And lets not forget about all of the really nice things that Motorola does 
for the WISP industry at the FCC.


NOT

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 12:20 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


As a former Canopy user, I would like to point out a couple of issues not 
mentioned here.


1)  Canopy is limited to vertical polarity in PTMP deployments.  Trango 
and many other systems can be deployed in horizontal polarity, pretty much 
avoiding any Canopy in the area.
2)  Canopy systems will be more robust in comparison to other systems 
deployed at the same antenna gain and polarity, and they will also coexist 
nicely with other Canopy systems if they are all running GPS sync on the 
access points.  HOWEVER, non-synced Canopy causes other Canopy systems all 
kinds of problems, and other types of systems will take a Canopy system 
down if the other system has higher gain and runs on the same path. 
Canopy will run with 3db of signal to noise separation, which is more 
robust than 802.11b for example which needs 5-6db - but that doesn't make 
it immune to noise.  There are situations where the poor antenna design of 
the Canopy ends up getting more noise and will run worse than a better 
engineered 802.11b system.
It is easy to build a 2000lb elephant (legally, I will add) that will kick 
the 500lb gorilla's butt.  Been there, done that.  I'm glad I don't have 
to deal with Canopy any more.


Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Forrest W Christian wrote:

Richard Goodin wrote:
I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers.

Since Canopy hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll mention it.

You really can't go wrong with a canopy installation.  It works, even in 
the presence of noise that would kill other systems.  We swapped a dying 
(due to interference) Trango system with a canopy system well over a year 
ago and haven't looked back.   As customers on our existing 802.11b 
network have problems we just swap them to Canopy.


Some here will probably mention canopy's abusive spectrum use.   Yes, 
Motorola uses a very agressive modulation which both provides for 
incredible interference robustness, but unfortunately doesn't play very 
well with others.   Systems with marginal link budget will fail when put 
in the presence of a motorola radio.  I have heard this referred to as 
the 500 pound gorilla approach - I.E. where does a 500 pound gorilla set? 
Anywhere he wants to.   I find it hard to see this as a disavantage to 
the Canopy operator.  After all this is business, and you need to make 
decisions which improve your bottom line.


One more thing... you need to be very careful about FCC certification of 
systems.  Many of the systems which people put together themselves are 
not legal in the eyes of the FCC.  In short, buying a radio from vendor A 
and pairing it with an antenna from vendor B may or may not be legal, 
even if the EIRP limit is not exceeded.   Plus, you will have vendors 
(distributors mostly) which will lie to you about whether or not a given 
pair is legal.   Currently many WISP's are doing things which are 
definitely not legal under the rules, and count on the FCC's continued 
non-enforcement of the part-15 bands as part of their business plan.   As 
being an Amateur Radio operator and seeing what happens when the FCC 
decides to actually pursue enforcement in a band, I wouldn't want to tie 
my continued business survival to illegal equipment. -forrest


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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Steve Stroh


Motorola designed Canopy specifically for the WISP market, not the 
carrier market.


Alvarion designed VL specifically for the carrier market, not the WISP 
market.



Thanks,

Steve

On Apr 11, 2006, at 18:55, Dylan Oliver wrote:

How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about 
Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola 
produces far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will - 
so where did they go wrong with Canopy?


 Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has trouble 
sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John?


 Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC--


---

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425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com

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RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Charles Wu
snip
Motorola designed Canopy specifically for the WISP market, not the 
carrier market.

Alvarion designed VL specifically for the carrier market, not the WISP 
market.
/snip

Ah, the mis-perceptions of the rugged metal enclosure =)

Steve, can you please explain why carriers would prefer a CSMA/CA over a
scheduled (WiMAX-like) MAC?

Thanks

-Charles

---
CWLab
Technology Architects
http://www.cwlab.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Stroh
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 11:05 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP






Thanks,

Steve

On Apr 11, 2006, at 18:55, Dylan Oliver wrote:

 How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about
 Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola 
 produces far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will - 
 so where did they go wrong with Canopy?

  Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has trouble
 sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John?

  Best,
 --
 Dylan Oliver
 Primaverity, LLC--

---

Steve Stroh
425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com

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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Michael Watson




Hello,

Maybe my math is off this morning, for lack of coffee but 
2286 Kbit does not equal 22000 Kbit   (2.286 Mbit does not equal 22
Mega bit.)
which is what I thought I saw at first glance.

So if that was KBYTE (which I think it is) instead of Kbit (Kb vs KB)
2286 KBYTE x 8 = 18288 (18.288 Mega Bit) 

Which is certainly impressive considering the fact that its 10 radios
away, and 8 hops as the traceroute shows!   

But it is Still a bit above half  the 30 or 35 Mbit you were previously
quoting.

-Michael


Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

  It is TCP.  We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never
be seen by a customer doing an FTP download.  We are looking at
building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in
future.

I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100
km of repeater distances.  The shot is split in half with mountain
shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to
the POP in each town.  We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP.  It
is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios.  I have pasted a speed test from
the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride.  Both are Linux systems
with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth
control.  Also I have the traceroute to show the hops.

lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx
rx rate: 2286 KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
lon-home:~/staros #

lon-home:~/staros # traceroute 10.10.29.1
traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  192.168.250.10  0.430 ms   0.401 ms   0.496 ms
 2  10.10.48.254  1.655 ms   1.447 ms   1.185 ms
 3  10.10.227.254  2.686 ms   1.965 ms   5.428 ms
 4  10.10.12.4  5.469 ms   3.250 ms   4.501 ms
 5  10.10.47.253  4.946 ms   4.415 ms   3.581 ms
 6  10.10.51.254  6.077 ms   6.472 ms   8.063 ms
 7  10.14.99.254  12.615 ms *   5.777 ms
 8  10.10.29.1  6.569 ms   7.295 ms   7.686 ms
lon-home:~/staros #

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
 Lonnie,

 Is that TCP or UDP?

 Travis
 Microserv


 Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:
 Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps
of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data.

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Dan,

 We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
another wireless list.

 What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have
seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing
thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

 Travis
 Microserv


 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT
have claimed higher using very fast cpu's.



I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps….
Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP
and all the other features available make a nice system






Dan Metcalf
 Wireless Broadband Systems
 www.wbisp.com
 781-566-2053 ext 6201

1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis
Johnson
 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



Hi,

 Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards
in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

 Travis
 Microserv

 Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site

 http://www.staros.com/starvx/

 Cheers,

 P.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
 Behalf Of Richard Goodin
 Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
 To: wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

 So... Who makes them?, how much?




 Hi Richard,

 This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
 George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
 seems to improve signal quality.

 Cheers,

 P.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
 Behalf Of Richard Goodin
 Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
 To: wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




 Guys;
 These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a
 WISP

 operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
 another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
 someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
 conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
 spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other
 guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do
 not

 need.

 Lee


 Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use.

 They



 are like Timex watches.

 I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Steve Stroh


John:

Here's my working definition of carrier grade:

Designed for use by carriers
Suitable for use by carriers
Sufficiently reliable for use by carriers

There is MUCH that goes into a product designed for use by carriers. 
It's expensive and a tough market, so a lot of vendors don't try. Here 
are just a few features that are carrier grade requirements from my 
perspective:

* Designed for use in all conceivable weather elements
* Designed for long operational use with minimal attention (in the WISP 
market, one measure is that it doesn't reboot itself, or require 
regular reboots)

* Designed for easy and fast repair
* The vendor stocks ample replacement units deployed geographically for 
fast supply.
* Support expertise by the vendor is readily available (excellent, 
easy-to-access tech support). Note that such support is almost never 
free, and carriers don't expect it to be. When they need help, they 
need it NOW and need to get their systems back online fast. (Carriers 
often have mandated time-to-repair maximums by regulatory agencies.)
* Subtle features like strain relief on all connectors, meeting the 
telecom industry requirements for rack mounting, built-in protection 
for power line surges and lightning.

* Superb monitoring and remote control capabilities
* Offer continuous VERY-in-depth training programs at the factory so 
that carriers can get their personnel FULLY up to speed on a product. 
Again, this almost never free, and carriers don't expect it to be.
* Offer continuous product improvement, bug fixes, recalls when 
appropriate, and does so proactively when an issue is identified, and 
does so in a way to minimize downtime such as offering proactive 
replacement units.


Etc.

Regarding Alvarion versus WISPs... it's pretty simple. By offering 
more like carrier-grade products, Alvarion saw FAR more market demand 
by carriers, public safety, enterprise than they saw in the WISP 
market. They are willing to sell to WISPs, but few WISPs are willing to 
take the time to truly understand Alvarion's value proposition which 
involves FAR more than mere price of the product. You've finally come 
around to this view John, and you'll discover that you have a lot of 
company in that view - which isn't (widely) represented on this list or 
necessarily within WISPA. That's because operators who have spent the 
money for quality gear like Alvarion's generally don't have NEARLY as 
many issues with such gear that require group support... and such 
operators don't wish to associate their businesses with the we'll just 
hack up a Linksys AP and have cheap gear attitude that a lot of people 
in the telecom industry equate with WISPs.


Is Alvarion arrogant? Yes, at times, and certain individuals. But I 
think that's mostly a lot of pride and recognition that they were one 
of the pioneering companies in making it possible to offer 
carrier-grade services in license-exempt spectrum - something that the 
telecom industry KNEW could NOT be done. It's also the case that 
Alvarion offers the broadest product line in Broadband Wireless 
Internet Access - licensed and license-exempt, fixed and mobile, 
high-capacity and low-capacity, etc. Alvarion has very capable 
competitors in various segments, but I can't think of any company that 
competes head-to-head with Alvarion in all segments, even Airspan.



Thanks,

Steve

On Apr 11, 2006, at 20:51, John Scrivner wrote:

I decided to do some reading on the term carrier-grade and have 
found the following to be what is considered a definition in relation 
to our industry. One random source on the web refers to this as,  A 
term that implies a system that is designed to have increased 
availability and timeliness to meet the requirements of a modern 
communications network element. I saw this quantified on one site as 
being, a network device which has a sustained uptime of over 99.999%. 
This was as close to a quantifiable definition as I have found though 
it gives no length of time or other parameters to use for calculation 
of this percentage. According to Hughes Software Systems in regard to 
Carrier-grade they state that equipment can only be considered 
Carrier-grade after several years of real field use shows that it is 
highly available and reliable. In the end it is a very subjective term 
and one I will not use in the future unless I can quantify the 
classification. Basically there is no firm definition but I have heard 
of Alvarion referred to as Carrier-grade by others and mistakingly 
assumed it was a clearly defined characteristic. My apologies for this 
error in wording.


With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than 
Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the 
past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some 
Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had 
the only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though 
they were claiming almost a 

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler
Actually 2,286 KBytes/sec is 22.86 mbps as compared to the way Telcos
rate their ADSL throughput, so I use the same x10 method.

The quote of 35 mbps and higher is between two radios whereas the copy
and paste shows through ten radios.  Obviously to get 22 mbps at the
end there is a higher rate in the middle since you lose a bit at each
radio.

Here is the test repeated on one radio hop.  That radio link is also
the main feed for the network that feeds to McBride and picks up 9 AP
sites and over 200 customers.  It brings the feeds into 4 resale ADSL
lines that we get from Sprint.  The normal traffic through that link
is about 2 mbps so my test was competing with traffic on a live link.

We use source routing to send particular customers to our choice of
ADSL line.  I do manual shifting for balancing, but since average
throughput is 2 mbps and each ADSL line is 4 mbps / 1 mbps we are only
scratching the surface.  The system does peak to over 10 mbps but
very, very rarely.

Lonnie

lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.48.254 password -tx
tx rate: 4607 KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
lon-home:~/staros # tracepath 10.10.48.254
1:  192.168.250.200 (192.168.250.200)  0.381ms pmtu 1500
1:  192.168.250.10 (192.168.250.10)1.241ms
2:  10.10.48.254 (10.10.48.254)2.565ms reached
 Resume: pmtu 1500 hops 2 back 2
lon-home:~/staros #

On 4/12/06, Michael Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Hello,

 Maybe my math is off this morning, for lack of coffee but
 2286 Kbit does not equal 22000 Kbit   (2.286 Mbit does not equal 22 Mega
 bit.)
 which is what I thought I saw at first glance.

 So if that was KBYTE (which I think it is) instead of Kbit (Kb vs KB)
 2286 KBYTE x 8 = 18288 (18.288 Mega Bit)

 Which is certainly impressive considering the fact that its 10 radios away,
 and 8 hops as the traceroute shows!

 But it is Still a bit above half  the 30 or 35 Mbit you were previously
 quoting.

 -Michael



 Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:
 It is TCP. We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never
be
 seen by a customer doing an FTP download. We are looking at
building in
 iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in
future.

I have a
 network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100
km of repeater
 distances. The shot is split in half with mountain
shots at each (43 km
 each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to
the POP in each town. We can
 pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP. It
is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios.
 I have pasted a speed test from
the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride.
 Both are Linux systems
with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for
 firewall and bandwidth
control. Also I have the traceroute to show the
 hops.

lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx
rx rate:
 2286 KB/sec (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
lon-home:~/staros #

lon-home:~/staros #
 traceroute 10.10.29.1
traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40
 byte packets
1 192.168.250.10 0.430 ms 0.401 ms 0.496 ms
2 10.10.48.254
 1.655 ms 1.447 ms 1.185 ms
3 10.10.227.254 2.686 ms 1.965 ms 5.428 ms
4
 10.10.12.4 5.469 ms 3.250 ms 4.501 ms
5 10.10.47.253 4.946 ms 4.415 ms
 3.581 ms
6 10.10.51.254 6.077 ms 6.472 ms 8.063 ms
7 10.14.99.254 12.615
 ms * 5.777 ms
8 10.10.29.1 6.569 ms 7.295 ms 7.686 ms
lon-home:~/staros
 #

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Lonnie,

Is that TCP or UDP?

Travis
Microserv


Lonnie Nunweiler
 wrote:
Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35
 mbps
of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible
 data.

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Dan,

We
 had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
another
 wireless list.

What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The
 fastest I have
seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP
 traffic passing
thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

Travis
 Microserv


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I believe that the atheros chipset
 is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT
have claimed higher using very
 fast cpu's.



I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that
 push 30Mbps….
Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus
 QoS for VoIP
and all the other features available make a nice
 system






Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
 781-566-2053 ext 6201

1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




 


From:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Travis
Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM
To:
 WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



Hi,

 Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards
in
 just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

Travis
Microserv

 Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Tom DeReggi

Lonnie,

Unfortuneately, not having UDP tests, does not allow accurate results. The 
reason is that UDP will show the point at which packet loss will occur, and 
at what percentage. Without that similar data, a TCP test is pointless.  I 
see some people do TCP speed tests (a method other than FTP), and it goes 
full capacity minus the percent packet loss of a percent or so. But then 
when a FTP gets done performance drops to a few hundred kb. The reason is 
FTP slows itself down to attempt to reduce packetloss. IN many wireless 
systems, the packetloss stays consistent and can not be removed by reducing 
speed, therefore the speed just keeps going slower and slower and slower 
until it crawls. A TCP test also does not show consistency of a link, or 
sparatic slow down, as they all get averaged out over the time period of the 
test.  If there are slowdown or hesitance on a wireless link  using a UDP 
test, the packetloss is instantly seen.  Doing a TCP test may show peek 
speed or average speed, but it does not show the ability to deliver 
consistent speed, what most companies need that are buying wireless to 
replace T1 lines.


Relying on TCP test alone, limits your product to a lower grade product, 
less than it can be.  An adequate test, does not need to be a UDP test, it 
can also be a layer2 test. The most valuable tool of Trango for example is 
its Layer2 Linktest, that shows throughput, and most importantly packetloss 
while performing that test.  It gives the abilty to run a test that takes 
priority over any other traffic on the link, to get the true full 
performance of that link at that moment in time.  It allows an integrator to 
instantly be able to determine the health of their links with total 
accuracy, quickly, without first disconnecting clients, that can be 
complicated, when multiple Linux re-configures might be needed to stop all 
other traffic.


For radios that don't have their own MAC, Iperf is one way to get most of 
the data collected. Measuring packet loss is more important than measuring 
top speed in my mind.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


It is TCP.  We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never
be seen by a customer doing an FTP download.  We are looking at
building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in
future.

I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100
km of repeater distances.  The shot is split in half with mountain
shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to
the POP in each town.  We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP.  It
is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios.  I have pasted a speed test from
the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride.  Both are Linux systems
with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth
control.  Also I have the traceroute to show the hops.

lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx
rx rate: 2286 KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
lon-home:~/staros #

lon-home:~/staros # traceroute 10.10.29.1
traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
1  192.168.250.10  0.430 ms   0.401 ms   0.496 ms
2  10.10.48.254  1.655 ms   1.447 ms   1.185 ms
3  10.10.227.254  2.686 ms   1.965 ms   5.428 ms
4  10.10.12.4  5.469 ms   3.250 ms   4.501 ms
5  10.10.47.253  4.946 ms   4.415 ms   3.581 ms
6  10.10.51.254  6.077 ms   6.472 ms   8.063 ms
7  10.14.99.254  12.615 ms *   5.777 ms
8  10.10.29.1  6.569 ms   7.295 ms   7.686 ms
lon-home:~/staros #

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Lonnie,

 Is that TCP or UDP?

 Travis
 Microserv


 Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:
 Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps
of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data.

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Dan,

 We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
another wireless list.

 What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have
seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic 
passing

thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

 Travis
 Microserv


 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of 
MT

have claimed higher using very fast cpu's.



I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps….
Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP
and all the other features available make a nice system






Dan Metcalf
 Wireless Broadband Systems
 www.wbisp.com
 781-566-2053 ext 6201

1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Tom DeReggi
PS.  UDP tests usually need to be run with Dynamic Modulation features 
disabled.


ISPs that delver telco grade services usually need to operate without 
Dynamic moduilation anyway, to consistently guarantee the link capacity 
available to tenants, and set at a speed that can deliver reliabilty 
consistently, in my opinion. I know some orthogon users may differ in 
opinion..


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps
of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data.

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dan,

 We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
another wireless list.

 What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have
seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic 
passing

thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

 Travis
 Microserv


 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of 
MT

have claimed higher using very fast cpu's.



I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps….
Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP
and all the other features available make a nice system






Dan Metcalf
 Wireless Broadband Systems
 www.wbisp.com
 781-566-2053 ext 6201

1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis
Johnson
 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



Hi,

 Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards
in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

 Travis
 Microserv

 Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site

 http://www.staros.com/starvx/

 Cheers,

 P.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Richard Goodin
 Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
 To: wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

 So... Who makes them?, how much?




 Hi Richard,

 This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
 George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and 
even

 seems to improve signal quality.

 Cheers,

 P.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Richard Goodin
 Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
 To: wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




 Guys;
 These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a
 WISP

 operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300 
feet,

 another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
 someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
 conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
 spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other
 guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do
 not

 need.

 Lee


 Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use.

 They



 are like Timex watches.

 I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2

 card


 boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
 Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz

 channel


 sizes.

 One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
 place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.

 Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
 omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the

 pc


 and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers
 and I'm happier.

 The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.

 Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war
 platform.


 George





 Travis Johnson wrote:


 That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3

 miles



 (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to

 10Mbps.




 Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of
 customers per sector.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Rick Smith wrote:



 that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

 Brian Rohrbacher wrote:



 If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has that
 cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.

 Richard Goodin wrote:



 I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin
 delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler
This may be the case, but the test we perform seems to describe what
we see in real life use.  As long as you have consistency it does not
matter what you do.  The ability to compare apples to apples is what
is truly important, and since we began to use TCP many years ago, we
still continue to do so, since it gives us a relevance and comparison
to the systems in current use.

My TCP numbers are lower than you'll get with a UDP test, so I am
quite happy to compare my TCP to UDP because my TCP numbers are pretty
nearly as high as numbers I hear reported for other high end systems
that test with UDP.

For instance, our TCP numbers on a  WRAP board were always in the 23
to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps, which is a
number I have never seen even in my dreams doing an FTP transfer (with
the WRAP boards).  Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000
KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client.

Our goal is to give you numbers you will see in real life.  After all,
your user is going to be ragging on you based on the FTP results they
see.

I am always amazed at how labels get applied.  To call something a
lower grade product because of a test method sure indicates a
conclusion that needs to be re-examined.  Results are what count, not
how pretty you look or how good you sound.

We have come pretty close to the goal of real world numbers, so I am
not fazed at all by your lower grade product ranking.  It is strange
to have to lie to the customer to get a high grade product rating. 
Maybe we don't need that, and for the most part my users don't want it
either.  They don't want packet loss either.  Most of them prefer to
have the whole file delivered intact.

Regards,
Lonnie

On 4/12/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Lonnie,

 Unfortuneately, not having UDP tests, does not allow accurate results. The
 reason is that UDP will show the point at which packet loss will occur, and
 at what percentage. Without that similar data, a TCP test is pointless.  I
 see some people do TCP speed tests (a method other than FTP), and it goes
 full capacity minus the percent packet loss of a percent or so. But then
 when a FTP gets done performance drops to a few hundred kb. The reason is
 FTP slows itself down to attempt to reduce packetloss. IN many wireless
 systems, the packetloss stays consistent and can not be removed by reducing
 speed, therefore the speed just keeps going slower and slower and slower
 until it crawls. A TCP test also does not show consistency of a link, or
 sparatic slow down, as they all get averaged out over the time period of the
 test.  If there are slowdown or hesitance on a wireless link  using a UDP
 test, the packetloss is instantly seen.  Doing a TCP test may show peek
 speed or average speed, but it does not show the ability to deliver
 consistent speed, what most companies need that are buying wireless to
 replace T1 lines.

 Relying on TCP test alone, limits your product to a lower grade product,
 less than it can be.  An adequate test, does not need to be a UDP test, it
 can also be a layer2 test. The most valuable tool of Trango for example is
 its Layer2 Linktest, that shows throughput, and most importantly packetloss
 while performing that test.  It gives the abilty to run a test that takes
 priority over any other traffic on the link, to get the true full
 performance of that link at that moment in time.  It allows an integrator to
 instantly be able to determine the health of their links with total
 accuracy, quickly, without first disconnecting clients, that can be
 complicated, when multiple Linux re-configures might be needed to stop all
 other traffic.

 For radios that don't have their own MAC, Iperf is one way to get most of
 the data collected. Measuring packet loss is more important than measuring
 top speed in my mind.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:54 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 It is TCP.  We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never
 be seen by a customer doing an FTP download.  We are looking at
 building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in
 future.

 I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100
 km of repeater distances.  The shot is split in half with mountain
 shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to
 the POP in each town.  We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP.  It
 is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios.  I have pasted a speed test from
 the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride.  Both are Linux systems
 with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth
 control.  Also I have the traceroute to show the hops.

 lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx
 rx rate: 2286 KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
 lon

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler
What we do is measure non compressible data and that becomes the
absolute max I will let someone ask for.  That means with compressible
data we do better than they expect.  No harm done, we figure.

Lonnie

On 4/12/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 PS.  UDP tests usually need to be run with Dynamic Modulation features
 disabled.

 ISPs that delver telco grade services usually need to operate without
 Dynamic moduilation anyway, to consistently guarantee the link capacity
 available to tenants, and set at a speed that can deliver reliabilty
 consistently, in my opinion. I know some orthogon users may differ in
 opinion..

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:36 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps
 of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data.

 Lonnie

 On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
   Dan,
 
   We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
  another wireless list.
 
   What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have
  seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic
  passing
  thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?
 
   Travis
   Microserv
 
 
   [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 
 
  I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of
  MT
  have claimed higher using very fast cpu's.
 
 
 
  I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps….
  Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP
  and all the other features available make a nice system
 
 
 
 
 
 
  Dan Metcalf
   Wireless Broadband Systems
   www.wbisp.com
   781-566-2053 ext 6201
 
  1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
 
   
 
 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis
  Johnson
   Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM
   To: WISPA General List
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
 
  Hi,
 
   Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards
  in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?
 
   Travis
   Microserv
 
   Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site
 
   http://www.staros.com/starvx/
 
   Cheers,
 
   P.
 
   -Original Message-
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
   Behalf Of Richard Goodin
   Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
   To: wireless@wispa.org
   Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
   So... Who makes them?, how much?
 
 
 
 
   Hi Richard,
 
   This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
   George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and
  even
   seems to improve signal quality.
 
   Cheers,
 
   P.
 
   -Original Message-
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
   Behalf Of Richard Goodin
   Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
   To: wireless@wispa.org
   Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
 
 
   Guys;
   These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a
   WISP
 
   operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300
  feet,
   another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
   someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
   conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
   spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other
   guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do
   not
 
   need.
 
   Lee
 
 
   Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use.
 
   They
 
 
 
   are like Timex watches.
 
   I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2
 
   card
 
 
   boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
   Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz
 
   channel
 
 
   sizes.
 
   One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
   place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.
 
   Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
   omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the
 
   pc
 
 
   and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers
   and I'm happier.
 
   The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.
 
   Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war
   platform.
 
 
   George
 
 
 
 
 
   Travis Johnson wrote:
 
 
   That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3
 
   miles
 
 
 
   (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up

RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread danlist
Lonnie,

Is the WAR/staros platform working PTMP or is it PTP?

Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201
1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
 Of Lonnie Nunweiler
 Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 8:07 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 What we do is measure non compressible data and that becomes the
 absolute max I will let someone ask for.  That means with compressible
 data we do better than they expect.  No harm done, we figure.
 
 Lonnie
 
 On 4/12/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  PS.  UDP tests usually need to be run with Dynamic Modulation features
  disabled.
 
  ISPs that delver telco grade services usually need to operate without
  Dynamic moduilation anyway, to consistently guarantee the link capacity
  available to tenants, and set at a speed that can deliver reliabilty
  consistently, in my opinion. I know some orthogon users may differ in
  opinion..
 
  Tom DeReggi
  RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
  IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
  - Original Message -
  From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:36 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
  Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps
  of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data.
 
  Lonnie
 
  On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dan,
  
We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
   another wireless list.
  
What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have
   seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic
   passing
   thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?
  
Travis
Microserv
  
  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
  
   I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of
   MT
   have claimed higher using very fast cpu's.
  
  
  
   I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps….
   Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP
   and all the other features available make a nice system
  
  
  
  
  
  
   Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201
  
   1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  
  
  
  

  
  
   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis
   Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
  
  
  
   Hi,
  
Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards
   in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?
  
Travis
Microserv
  
Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site
  
http://www.staros.com/starvx/
  
Cheers,
  
P.
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
  
So... Who makes them?, how much?
  
  
  
  
Hi Richard,
  
This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and
   even
seems to improve signal quality.
  
Cheers,
  
P.
  
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
  
  
  
  
Guys;
These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a
WISP
  
operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300
   feet,
another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other
guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do
not
  
need.
  
Lee
  
  
Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use.
  
They
  
  
  
are like Timex watches.
  
I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2
  
card
  
  
boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz
  
channel
  
  
sizes.
  
One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Carl A Jeptha

Here's the reply for all answers.
Look at the name of the association. WISPA. We are not carriers, we Do 
Not get listed on the stock-exchange, we do not have money to burn. This 
is the reason for our existence. We deliver the goods where these fools 
fear to tread. A Microcell with 10 customers is profitable. Follow the 
10% rule - 100 people in the community of your AP. People this is Rural 
Countryside, where even your Cellphone don't work here most times, but 
we do (I have a Skypeout account to make calls). Don't forget your 911 
VOIP database. When you call 911 here, you hope the fire truck driver 
lives down the road from you. He knows it is the brick house on the 
north east corner.
My total area of service does not have a population of 1 million. 
Explain the $1,000,000.00 you want me to spend.
Tranzeo and Company got the message - here's a CPE for $5.00 - I'll take 
it, can I have twenty (don't know where they are going, but the price is 
right (bang,bang,bang, God my head is going to hurt tomorrow - this 
brickwall is not giving))
I have Wave rider in the garbage, I have Cirronet in the Garbage, I have 
Linksys in the Garbage, I have Engenius in the Garbage. How long have I 
been in business as a WISP - since 1999. Now I can guarantee you that if 
I had Alvarion/carrier grade vendor some of its models would be in the 
garbage. (you know what carrier grades means  - VAR Value added reseller 
- charge more for the future services you are going to deliver, if 
needed). Now Today I climb a tower and replaced a CB3 (that wisps swear 
by) with a lowly Hawking HWBA11 (I don't even think Hawkings make them 
anymore (damn Everyready Bunny stole the idea - just keep on going). 
All of my CB3's are showing their age. My Tranzeo CPQ's, 6000's and 
5.8's are doing fine (Including the one that flew off the vehicle at a 
high rate of speed (95kph - thats' what the speedo said) )Forgot it on 
the roof - so I'm over 50 - sue me.


Vendor if your equipment don't follow a standard I won't buy it
If your equipment does not offer a ROI in three months max, no way
If your equipment cost more than $300.00 installed no customer wants it
Notice I am still waiting for 900mhz equipment

Oh by the way this is my business, my clients, my area and I learnt the 
hard way what is good for my business. (by the time we had learnt how to 
use our Cirronet, we had to remove it, the industry had moved on. So I 
am thankful for the live I got out of our CB3's and Hawkings. But they 
are paid for and we made a profit. Now we are replacing the radio's 
with Tranzeo 6000's and CPQ CPE's, unless we get a NLOS solution with 
bandwidth.


End of Ramble, Sorry I took so long, :-)

You have a Good Day now,


Carl A Jeptha
http://www.airnet.ca
office 905 349-2084
Emergency only Pager 905 377-6900
skype cajeptha



Steve Stroh wrote:


John:

Here's my working definition of carrier grade:

Designed for use by carriers
Suitable for use by carriers
Sufficiently reliable for use by carriers

There is MUCH that goes into a product designed for use by carriers. 
It's expensive and a tough market, so a lot of vendors don't try. Here 
are just a few features that are carrier grade requirements from my 
perspective:

* Designed for use in all conceivable weather elements
* Designed for long operational use with minimal attention (in the 
WISP market, one measure is that it doesn't reboot itself, or require 
regular reboots)

* Designed for easy and fast repair
* The vendor stocks ample replacement units deployed geographically 
for fast supply.
* Support expertise by the vendor is readily available (excellent, 
easy-to-access tech support). Note that such support is almost never 
free, and carriers don't expect it to be. When they need help, they 
need it NOW and need to get their systems back online fast. (Carriers 
often have mandated time-to-repair maximums by regulatory agencies.)
* Subtle features like strain relief on all connectors, meeting the 
telecom industry requirements for rack mounting, built-in protection 
for power line surges and lightning.

* Superb monitoring and remote control capabilities
* Offer continuous VERY-in-depth training programs at the factory so 
that carriers can get their personnel FULLY up to speed on a product. 
Again, this almost never free, and carriers don't expect it to be.
* Offer continuous product improvement, bug fixes, recalls when 
appropriate, and does so proactively when an issue is identified, and 
does so in a way to minimize downtime such as offering proactive 
replacement units.


Etc.

Regarding Alvarion versus WISPs... it's pretty simple. By offering 
more like carrier-grade products, Alvarion saw FAR more market 
demand by carriers, public safety, enterprise than they saw in the 
WISP market. They are willing to sell to WISPs, but few WISPs are 
willing to take the time to truly understand Alvarion's value 
proposition which involves FAR more than mere price of the product. 
You've finally 

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Tom DeReggi


Steve, excellent points. except... (also see inline)

By  your definition of Carrier grade, I could argue that many WISPs that 
just so happen not to use Alvarion, may very well better meet the definition 
of carrier grade than the carriers themselves.  One of the negatives about 
the Alvarion product is that they have fallen victom to the IBM syndrom. 
They try and be the best and standardize on that, but then they lock them 
selves into a box with a limited product, and get left behind as far as 
features and product enhancements.  IBM lost the war to Clones, because 
Clones were able to innovate faster and deliver more competitive products 
sooner.  Alvarion, has tried to full fill the role of carrier grade, 
probably better than any other manufacturer, from the perspective of the 
support level carrier demand, and quality of the manufacturing of the 
product.  But ultimately, where does Alvarion stand technology wise? Are 
they leading? Thats debatable.


For example: Alvarion still
1. Single Freq range per radio unit.
2. Single polarity per radio unit.

Limitations even the cheapest manufacturers have overcome. Many businesses 
operational savings are being had by WISPs chosing other third party 
wireless gear, allowing their operations to be more carrier class. (less 
stock, fewer components needed per truck, easier ordering, lower pricing, 
consistent OS interfaces, etc).


I'm not just targeting Alvarion in my complaint. How many manufactturers 
have taken advantage os new smart antenna technologies or FCC rules for 
higher power or new freq ranges?


For companies like Alvarion to stay on top as a leading Carrier grade 
company, they are going to have to break out of the IBM mold, and start 
innovating quicker.  They are starting to do that, by comming out with Wimax 
and 4.9Ghz gear quicker than other competitors in the space.



Here's my working definition of carrier grade:

Designed for use by carriers
Suitable for use by carriers
Sufficiently reliable for use by carriers

There is MUCH that goes into a product designed for use by carriers. It's 
expensive and a tough market, so a lot of vendors don't try. Here are just 
a few features that are carrier grade requirements from my perspective:



* Designed for use in all conceivable weather elements


WISPs pass. (Alvarion not required to do so)

* Designed for long operational use with minimal attention (in the WISP 
market, one measure is that it doesn't reboot itself, or require regular 
reboots)


WISPs fail. 1 minute outages every month or so must be tolerated.
Even Alvarion is known for occasional auto system reboots when harsh 
interence is encountered.



* Designed for easy and fast repair


WISPs pass and shine. But not aware of any Carrier Telco that passes that 
requirement.
Less likely with Alvarion, as more models need to be stocked, to ahve all 
conceivable replacement models.


* The vendor stocks ample replacement units deployed geographically for 
fast supply.


WISPs pass.  Telco's generally Fail. Not many Companies keep $100,000 
switches on hand for quick replacement.


* Support expertise by the vendor is readily available (excellent, 
easy-to-access tech support). Note that such support is almost never free, 
and carriers don't expect it to be. When they need help, they need it NOW 
and need to get their systems back online fast. (Carriers often have 
mandated time-to-repair maximums by regulatory agencies.)


Yes. But not aware of many Telcos that have a faster response time in their 
Tarrifs, than good local WISPs.


* Subtle features like strain relief on all connectors, meeting the 
telecom industry requirements for rack mounting, built-in protection for 
power line surges and lightning.


WISPs put in a valient effort, but fail or barely pass.
Telcos pass and shine, throwing millions of dollars away in over 
engineering.
So although they shine, its responsible for the bankruptcy of 25 of the 
largest 29 Telcos through year 2001.



* Superb monitoring and remote control capabilities


WISPs pass.  However, where Telcos shine, is 100s of commercial product are 
available to collect and store and track the statistics to backup SLA 
guarantees.  WISPs can offer and fullfil the same SLAs maybe even better, 
but can they prove it?


* Offer continuous VERY-in-depth training programs at the factory so that 
carriers can get their personnel FULLY up to speed on a product. Again, 
this almost never free, and carriers don't expect it to be.


Every WISPs product manufacturer offers this. The only reason all WISPs may 
not have it, is their decission not to pay for it, as they don't have a huge 
staff to justify it, when they know it already.


* Offer continuous product improvement, bug fixes, recalls when 
appropriate, and does so proactively when an issue is identified, and does 
so in a way to minimize downtime such as offering proactive replacement 
units.


Telcos pass. Most WISP networks do not. Open Source, 

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Tom DeReggi
, 2006 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


It is TCP.  We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never
be seen by a customer doing an FTP download.  We are looking at
building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in
future.

I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100
km of repeater distances.  The shot is split in half with mountain
shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to
the POP in each town.  We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP.  It
is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios.  I have pasted a speed test from
the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride.  Both are Linux systems
with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth
control.  Also I have the traceroute to show the hops.

lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx
rx rate: 2286 KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
lon-home:~/staros #

lon-home:~/staros # traceroute 10.10.29.1
traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  192.168.250.10  0.430 ms   0.401 ms   0.496 ms
 2  10.10.48.254  1.655 ms   1.447 ms   1.185 ms
 3  10.10.227.254  2.686 ms   1.965 ms   5.428 ms
 4  10.10.12.4  5.469 ms   3.250 ms   4.501 ms
 5  10.10.47.253  4.946 ms   4.415 ms   3.581 ms
 6  10.10.51.254  6.077 ms   6.472 ms   8.063 ms
 7  10.14.99.254  12.615 ms *   5.777 ms
 8  10.10.29.1  6.569 ms   7.295 ms   7.686 ms
lon-home:~/staros #

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Lonnie,

  Is that TCP or UDP?

  Travis
  Microserv


  Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:
  Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps
 of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data.

 Lonnie

 On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


  Dan,

  We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
 another wireless list.

  What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I 
 have

 seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic
 passing
 thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

  Travis
  Microserv


  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users 
 of

 MT
 have claimed higher using very fast cpu's.



 I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 
 30Mbps….
 Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for 
 VoIP

 and all the other features available make a nice system






 Dan Metcalf
  Wireless Broadband Systems
  www.wbisp.com
  781-566-2053 ext 6201

 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




  


 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis
 Johnson
  Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



 Hi,

  Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz 
 boards

 in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

  Travis
  Microserv

  Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site

  http://www.staros.com/starvx/

  Cheers,

  P.

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Richard Goodin
  Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
  To: wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

  So... Who makes them?, how much?




  Hi Richard,

  This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
  George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and
 even
  seems to improve signal quality.

  Cheers,

  P.

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Richard Goodin
  Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
  To: wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




  Guys;
  These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a
  WISP

  operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300
 feet,
  another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
  someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
  conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
  spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other
  guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I 
 do

  not

  need.

  Lee


  Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use.

  They



  are like Timex watches.

  I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2

  card


  boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
  Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz

  channel


  sizes.

  One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
  place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.

  Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed 
 an

  omni

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Travis Johnson
, 
without a standardized test tool embedded in the radio. I got Iperf on 
the cell servers. But I'd love to be able to test performance to the 
CPE, without calling the customer to assist, and see the results I'm 
getting on the spot. It puts me in a vulnerable possition SLA wise and 
response time wise.


You can take the advise or leave it. Just my 2 cents.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Lonnie Nunweiler 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


This may be the case, but the test we perform seems to describe what
we see in real life use.  As long as you have consistency it does not
matter what you do.  The ability to compare apples to apples is what
is truly important, and since we began to use TCP many years ago, we
still continue to do so, since it gives us a relevance and comparison
to the systems in current use.

My TCP numbers are lower than you'll get with a UDP test, so I am
quite happy to compare my TCP to UDP because my TCP numbers are pretty
nearly as high as numbers I hear reported for other high end systems
that test with UDP.

For instance, our TCP numbers on a  WRAP board were always in the 23
to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps, which is a
number I have never seen even in my dreams doing an FTP transfer (with
the WRAP boards).  Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000
KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client.

Our goal is to give you numbers you will see in real life.  After all,
your user is going to be ragging on you based on the FTP results they
see.

I am always amazed at how labels get applied.  To call something a
lower grade product because of a test method sure indicates a
conclusion that needs to be re-examined.  Results are what count, not
how pretty you look or how good you sound.

We have come pretty close to the goal of real world numbers, so I am
not fazed at all by your lower grade product ranking.  It is strange
to have to lie to the customer to get a high grade product rating.
Maybe we don't need that, and for the most part my users don't want it
either.


They don't want packet loss either.  Most of them prefer to
have the whole file delivered intact.



Yes, but that really isn't a choice made or controled by the ISP, we 
deploy in a dynamic environment that changes. I remember when I was 
green in this industry, and rode my high horse, and stated, Links 
should be engineered for no packet loss from the beginning. In that 
is exactly what we did!  But environments change. When a competitor 
points a Radio at your cell site from 300 yards away, packet loss 
occurs, nothing can be done about it on the spot. re-engineering must 
take place to illiminate packetloss.  How much time will a WISP have 
to correct packet loss, before they lose their subscriber? I can tell 
you that Trango ARQ, bought me months of time to get around to making 
a re-engineering repair.  The first step, is to realize the 
performance of a link, to know how severe it is, and what steps need 
to be made to correct it. Every tool in the toolbox, helps deal with 
running a better operation as a WISP.



Regards,
Lonnie

On 4/12/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Lonnie,

Unfortuneately, not having UDP tests, does not allow accurate 
results. The
reason is that UDP will show the point at which packet loss will 
occur, and
at what percentage. Without that similar data, a TCP test is 
pointless.  I
see some people do TCP speed tests (a method other than FTP), and it 
goes

full capacity minus the percent packet loss of a percent or so. But then
when a FTP gets done performance drops to a few hundred kb. The 
reason is

FTP slows itself down to attempt to reduce packetloss. IN many wireless
systems, the packetloss stays consistent and can not be removed by 
reducing

speed, therefore the speed just keeps going slower and slower and slower
until it crawls. A TCP test also does not show consistency of a link, or
sparatic slow down, as they all get averaged out over the time period 
of the
test.  If there are slowdown or hesitance on a wireless link  using a 
UDP

test, the packetloss is instantly seen.  Doing a TCP test may show peek
speed or average speed, but it does not show the ability to deliver
consistent speed, what most companies need that are buying wireless to
replace T1 lines.

Relying on TCP test alone, limits your product to a lower grade product,
less than it can be.  An adequate test, does not need to be a UDP 
test, it
can also be a layer2 test. The most valuable tool of Trango for 
example is
its Layer2 Linktest, that shows throughput, and most importantly 
packetloss
while performing that test.  It gives the abilty to run a test that 
takes

priority over any other traffic on the link, to get the true full
performance of that link at that moment in time.  It allows

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-
- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:51 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



 With that said I still think Alvarion is a far better platform than
 Canopy which is strictly my opinion and has no basis in fact. In the
 past I have been put-off by a perceived arrogance I have seen by some
 Alvarion representatives who have insisted previously that they had the
 only viable solution for wireless broadband and seemed as though they
 were claiming almost a holier than thou behavior toward anyone stating
 another opinion than their own. I have also seen a terribly biased
 negative attitude toward Alvarion by many WISPs who wanted to drive home
 the WISP=Cheap mentality to the point of alienating Alvarion from our
 entire market segment. Both Alvarion and most WISPs have lost a great
 ally in each other and I suspect both sides have suffered from such
 negativity. I am hoping to see this division closed between the typical
 WISP operator and Alvarion.

Until Alvarion makes a product that's viable for more than niche market
WISP, the 'division' is simply going to continue to exist.  They have
certain products that WISP's will find useful and valuable, but they don't
make mainstream WISP last mile equipment.   I have been expecting to see
them announce something, but so far, I've not seen anything.

The ball's in thier court.


North East Oregon Fastnet, LLC 509-593-4061
personal correspondence to:  mark at neofast dot net
sales inquiries to:  purchasing at neofast dot net
Fast Internet, NO WIRES!

-

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RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Chad Halsted








I hope you enjoy yours as much as I have
mine. :D











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:52
PM
To: WISPA
 General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system
for a new WISP





Chad,

Based on your post, I just purchased a couple 533mhz boards with CM9 cards from
Lonnie. :)

Travis
Microserv

Chad Halsted wrote: 

Travis,



I have a StarOS PTP link using the 533mhz
WAR boards that get up to 33Mbps (TCP). Thats using CM9 atheros cards
and 2 PacWireless Dishes. 











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:28
AM
To: WISPA
 General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system
for a new WISP







Hi,

Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in
just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

Travis
Microserv

Paul Hendry wrote: 

All the details are on the Valemount web sitehttp://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 09:15To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPSo... Who makes them?, how much? 

Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes thatGeorge was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and evenseems to improve signal quality.Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 08:09To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPGuys;These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISPoperator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, andsomeone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected byconventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channelspacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These otherguys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do notneed.Lee 

Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 

They 

are like Timex watches.I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 

card 

boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 

channel 

sizes.One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over theplace. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed anomni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 

pc 

and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customersand I'm happier.The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new warplatform.GeorgeTravis Johnson wrote: 

That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 



miles 



(add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 



10Mbps. 



Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds ofcustomers per sector.TravisMicroservRick Smith wrote: 

that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?Brian Rohrbacher wrote: 

If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has thatcpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.Richard Goodin wrote: 

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begindelivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 









was 









802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped 









it 









to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built acouple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router 









is 









a Cisco 1750.My questions:What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want tokeep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. Myenvironment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.Lee 







--WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 

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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler
 have one AP for all my wifi needs, instead of multiple APs
 on the roof for various needs, and I only need one channels for all my
 needs, instead of multiple channels for various needs. (Wep compatibilty
 mode, WPA high security mode, HotSpot Free public access, VLAN protected
 provisioning mode).  It will be great when you get Virtual AP added to the
 product. It gets hard for me to test performance between a StarOS client and
 a Mikrotik AP, without a standardized test tool embedded in the radio. I got
 Iperf on the cell servers. But I'd love to be able to test performance to
 the CPE, without calling the customer to assist, and see the results I'm
 getting on the spot. It puts me in a vulnerable possition SLA wise and
 response time wise.

 You can take the advise or leave it. Just my 2 cents.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Lonnie Nunweiler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2006 7:33 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 This may be the case, but the test we perform seems to describe what
 we see in real life use.  As long as you have consistency it does not
 matter what you do.  The ability to compare apples to apples is what
 is truly important, and since we began to use TCP many years ago, we
 still continue to do so, since it gives us a relevance and comparison
 to the systems in current use.

 My TCP numbers are lower than you'll get with a UDP test, so I am
 quite happy to compare my TCP to UDP because my TCP numbers are pretty
 nearly as high as numbers I hear reported for other high end systems
 that test with UDP.

 For instance, our TCP numbers on a  WRAP board were always in the 23
 to 25 mbps range yet a UDP test would pull almost 35 mbps, which is a
 number I have never seen even in my dreams doing an FTP transfer (with
 the WRAP boards).  Typical numbers were always in the 1,800 to 2,000
 KBytes/sec as reported by the FTP client.

 Our goal is to give you numbers you will see in real life.  After all,
 your user is going to be ragging on you based on the FTP results they
 see.

 I am always amazed at how labels get applied.  To call something a
 lower grade product because of a test method sure indicates a
 conclusion that needs to be re-examined.  Results are what count, not
 how pretty you look or how good you sound.

 We have come pretty close to the goal of real world numbers, so I am
 not fazed at all by your lower grade product ranking.  It is strange
 to have to lie to the customer to get a high grade product rating.
 Maybe we don't need that, and for the most part my users don't want it
 either.

  They don't want packet loss either.  Most of them prefer to
 have the whole file delivered intact.

 Yes, but that really isn't a choice made or controled by the ISP, we deploy
 in a dynamic environment that changes. I remember when I was green in this
 industry, and rode my high horse, and stated, Links should be engineered
 for no packet loss from the beginning. In that is exactly what we did!  But
 environments change. When a competitor points a Radio at your cell site from
 300 yards away, packet loss occurs, nothing can be done about it on the
 spot. re-engineering must take place to illiminate packetloss.  How much
 time will a WISP have to correct packet loss, before they lose their
 subscriber? I can tell you that Trango ARQ, bought me months of time to get
 around to making a re-engineering repair.  The first step, is to realize the
 performance of a link, to know how severe it is, and what steps need to be
 made to correct it. Every tool in the toolbox, helps deal with running a
 better operation as a WISP.


 Regards,
 Lonnie

 On 4/12/06, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Lonnie,
 
  Unfortuneately, not having UDP tests, does not allow accurate results. The
  reason is that UDP will show the point at which packet loss will occur,
  and
  at what percentage. Without that similar data, a TCP test is pointless.  I
  see some people do TCP speed tests (a method other than FTP), and it goes
  full capacity minus the percent packet loss of a percent or so. But then
  when a FTP gets done performance drops to a few hundred kb. The reason is
  FTP slows itself down to attempt to reduce packetloss. IN many wireless
  systems, the packetloss stays consistent and can not be removed by
  reducing
  speed, therefore the speed just keeps going slower and slower and slower
  until it crawls. A TCP test also does not show consistency of a link, or
  sparatic slow down, as they all get averaged out over the time period of
  the
  test.  If there are slowdown or hesitance on a wireless link  using a UDP
  test, the packetloss is instantly seen.  Doing a TCP test may show peek
  speed or average speed, but it does not show the ability to deliver
  consistent speed, what most companies need that are buying wireless to
  replace T1 lines

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread Steve Stroh


Tom:

My defense of Alvarion is pretty mild. They're definitely drifting down 
the innovation curve, not up. They're incredibly arrogant about not 
doing Wi-Fi despite the growing, impressive wins of Wi-Fi mesh vendors. 
They're not doing mesh, etc. They now are involved pretty deeply in the 
cellular and WiMAX industry, and that seems to have the vast majority 
of their corporate attention. But, in their (mild) defense, they're 
meeting the demands from their identified customers. (They don't seem 
to recognize what a trap this can be; apparently no one there has read 
The Innovator's Dilemma.)


There are certainly WISPs that come really close to a working 
definition of carrier-grade; I didn't mean to imply that they didn't 
exist.


Great points, all - yours was one of the best pieces of reading I've 
seen on the WISP-related lists in a long time - it elevated the SNR.



Thanks,

Steve


On Apr 12, 2006, at 17:28, Tom DeReggi wrote:



Steve, excellent points. except... (also see inline)

By  your definition of Carrier grade, I could argue that many WISPs 
that just so happen not to use Alvarion, may very well better meet the 
definition of carrier grade than the carriers themselves.  One of the 
negatives about the Alvarion product is that they have fallen victom 
to the IBM syndrom. They try and be the best and standardize on that, 
but then they lock them selves into a box with a limited product, and 
get left behind as far as features and product enhancements.  IBM lost 
the war to Clones, because Clones were able to innovate faster and 
deliver more competitive products sooner.  Alvarion, has tried to full 
fill the role of carrier grade, probably better than any other 
manufacturer, from the perspective of the support level carrier 
demand, and quality of the manufacturing of the product.  But 
ultimately, where does Alvarion stand technology wise? Are they 
leading? Thats debatable.


For example: Alvarion still
1. Single Freq range per radio unit.
2. Single polarity per radio unit.

Limitations even the cheapest manufacturers have overcome. Many 
businesses operational savings are being had by WISPs chosing other 
third party wireless gear, allowing their operations to be more 
carrier class. (less stock, fewer components needed per truck, easier 
ordering, lower pricing, consistent OS interfaces, etc).


I'm not just targeting Alvarion in my complaint. How many 
manufactturers have taken advantage os new smart antenna technologies 
or FCC rules for higher power or new freq ranges?


For companies like Alvarion to stay on top as a leading Carrier grade 
company, they are going to have to break out of the IBM mold, and 
start innovating quicker.  They are starting to do that, by comming 
out with Wimax and 4.9Ghz gear quicker than other competitors in the 
space.


WISPs pass. (Alvarion not required to do so)

WISPs fail. 1 minute outages every month or so must be tolerated.
Even Alvarion is known for occasional auto system reboots when harsh 
interence is encountered.


WISPs pass and shine. But not aware of any Carrier Telco that passes 
that requirement.
Less likely with Alvarion, as more models need to be stocked, to ahve 
all conceivable replacement models.


WISPs pass.  Telco's generally Fail. Not many Companies keep $100,000 
switches on hand for quick replacement.


Yes. But not aware of many Telcos that have a faster response time in 
their Tarrifs, than good local WISPs.


WISPs put in a valient effort, but fail or barely pass.
Telcos pass and shine, throwing millions of dollars away in over 
engineering.
So although they shine, its responsible for the bankruptcy of 25 of 
the largest 29 Telcos through year 2001.


WISPs pass.  However, where Telcos shine, is 100s of commercial 
product are available to collect and store and track the statistics to 
backup SLA guarantees.  WISPs can offer and fullfil the same SLAs 
maybe even better, but can they prove it?


Every WISPs product manufacturer offers this. The only reason all 
WISPs may not have it, is their decission not to pay for it, as they 
don't have a huge staff to justify it, when they know it already.


Telcos pass. Most WISP networks do not. Open Source, provides more 
options for improvements and impowers the WISP, but no guarantees are 
there that it will continue to be given or at what success rate.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc


Budget being only difference, and WISP qualify for carrier better than 
ILEC in some cases.


---

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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-12 Thread George
I've always looked at Alvarion as being carrier grade or as close as 
anything I've seen.


And they are a fine company.

George



Steve Stroh wrote:


Tom:

My defense of Alvarion is pretty mild. They're definitely drifting down 
the innovation curve, not up. They're incredibly arrogant about not 
doing Wi-Fi despite the growing, impressive wins of Wi-Fi mesh vendors. 
They're not doing mesh, etc. They now are involved pretty deeply in the 
cellular and WiMAX industry, and that seems to have the vast majority of 
their corporate attention. But, in their (mild) defense, they're meeting 
the demands from their identified customers. (They don't seem to 
recognize what a trap this can be; apparently no one there has read The 
Innovator's Dilemma.)


There are certainly WISPs that come really close to a working definition 
of carrier-grade; I didn't mean to imply that they didn't exist.


Great points, all - yours was one of the best pieces of reading I've 
seen on the WISP-related lists in a long time - it elevated the SNR.



Thanks,

Steve


On Apr 12, 2006, at 17:28, Tom DeReggi wrote:



Steve, excellent points. except... (also see inline)

By  your definition of Carrier grade, I could argue that many WISPs 
that just so happen not to use Alvarion, may very well better meet the 
definition of carrier grade than the carriers themselves.  One of the 
negatives about the Alvarion product is that they have fallen victom 
to the IBM syndrom. They try and be the best and standardize on that, 
but then they lock them selves into a box with a limited product, and 
get left behind as far as features and product enhancements.  IBM lost 
the war to Clones, because Clones were able to innovate faster and 
deliver more competitive products sooner.  Alvarion, has tried to full 
fill the role of carrier grade, probably better than any other 
manufacturer, from the perspective of the support level carrier 
demand, and quality of the manufacturing of the product.  But 
ultimately, where does Alvarion stand technology wise? Are they 
leading? Thats debatable.


For example: Alvarion still
1. Single Freq range per radio unit.
2. Single polarity per radio unit.

Limitations even the cheapest manufacturers have overcome. Many 
businesses operational savings are being had by WISPs chosing other 
third party wireless gear, allowing their operations to be more 
carrier class. (less stock, fewer components needed per truck, easier 
ordering, lower pricing, consistent OS interfaces, etc).


I'm not just targeting Alvarion in my complaint. How many 
manufactturers have taken advantage os new smart antenna technologies 
or FCC rules for higher power or new freq ranges?


For companies like Alvarion to stay on top as a leading Carrier grade 
company, they are going to have to break out of the IBM mold, and 
start innovating quicker.  They are starting to do that, by comming 
out with Wimax and 4.9Ghz gear quicker than other competitors in the 
space.


WISPs pass. (Alvarion not required to do so)

WISPs fail. 1 minute outages every month or so must be tolerated.
Even Alvarion is known for occasional auto system reboots when harsh 
interence is encountered.


WISPs pass and shine. But not aware of any Carrier Telco that passes 
that requirement.
Less likely with Alvarion, as more models need to be stocked, to ahve 
all conceivable replacement models.


WISPs pass.  Telco's generally Fail. Not many Companies keep $100,000 
switches on hand for quick replacement.


Yes. But not aware of many Telcos that have a faster response time in 
their Tarrifs, than good local WISPs.


WISPs put in a valient effort, but fail or barely pass.
Telcos pass and shine, throwing millions of dollars away in over 
engineering.
So although they shine, its responsible for the bankruptcy of 25 of 
the largest 29 Telcos through year 2001.


WISPs pass.  However, where Telcos shine, is 100s of commercial 
product are available to collect and store and track the statistics to 
backup SLA guarantees.  WISPs can offer and fullfil the same SLAs 
maybe even better, but can they prove it?


Every WISPs product manufacturer offers this. The only reason all 
WISPs may not have it, is their decission not to pay for it, as they 
don't have a huge staff to justify it, when they know it already.


Telcos pass. Most WISP networks do not. Open Source, provides more 
options for improvements and impowers the WISP, but no guarantees are 
there that it will continue to be given or at what success rate.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc


Budget being only difference, and WISP qualify for carrier better than 
ILEC in some cases.



---

Steve Stroh
425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com



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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Richard Goodin




Guys;
These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a WISP 
operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet, 
another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and 
someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by 
conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel 
spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other 
guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do not 
need.


Lee
Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. They 
are like Timex watches.


I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 card 
boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz channel 
sizes.


One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the 
place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.


Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an 
omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the pc 
and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers 
and I'm happier.


The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.

Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war 
platform.



George





Travis Johnson wrote:
That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 miles 
(add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 10Mbps. 
Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of 
customers per sector.


Travis
Microserv

Rick Smith wrote:


that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has that 
cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.


Richard Goodin wrote:

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 
802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby 
(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I have a 
50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would be 4 90 
degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it 
to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And I've built a 
couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router.  The Router is 
a Cisco 1750.


My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to 
keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My 
environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.


Lee




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RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Richard Goodin

So... Who makes them?, how much?



Hi Richard,

This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
seems to improve signal quality.

Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




Guys;
These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a 
WISP


operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other
guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do 
not


need.

Lee
Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 
They


are like Timex watches.

I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 
card

boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 
channel

sizes.

One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.

Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 
pc

and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers
and I'm happier.

The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.

Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war
platform.


George





Travis Johnson wrote:
That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 
miles
(add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 
10Mbps.


Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of
customers per sector.

Travis
Microserv

Rick Smith wrote:

that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has that
cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.

Richard Goodin wrote:

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin
delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 
was

802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby
(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I have a
50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would be 4 90
degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and shopped 
it

to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And I've built a
couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router.  The Router 
is

a Cisco 1750.

My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to
keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My
environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.

Lee



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RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Paul Hendry
All the details are on the Valemount web site

http://www.staros.com/starvx/ 

Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

So... Who makes them?, how much?


Hi Richard,

   This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
seems to improve signal quality.

Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




Guys;
These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a 
WISP

operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other
guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do 
not

need.

Lee
 Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 
They

 are like Timex watches.
 
 I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 
card
 boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
 Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 
channel
 sizes.
 
 One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
 place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.
 
 Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
 omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 
pc
 and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers
 and I'm happier.
 
 The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.
 
 Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war
 platform.
 
 
 George
 
 
 
 
 
 Travis Johnson wrote:
 That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 
miles
 (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 
10Mbps.

 Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of
 customers per sector.
 
 Travis
 Microserv
 
 Rick Smith wrote:
 
 that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?
 
 Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
 
 If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has that
 cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.
 
 Richard Goodin wrote:
 
 I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin
 delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 
was
 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby
 (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I have a
 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would be 4 90
 degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and shopped 
it
 to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And I've built a
 couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router.  The Router 
is
 a Cisco 1750.
 
 My questions:
 
 What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to
 keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My
 environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.
 
 Lee
 
 
 
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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Tim Wolfe

Richard Goodin wrote:




Guys;
These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about 
a WISP operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, 
maybe 300 feet, another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both 
on 2.4 GHZ, and someone suggested a different AP that would not even 
be detected by conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard 
bandwidth, channel spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is 
best here.  These other guys have been in business for a while and 
could cause trouble that I do not need.


Lee
Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in 
use. They are like Timex watches.


I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 
card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 
channel sizes.


One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over 
the place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.


Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed 
an omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right 
to the pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have 
happier customers and I'm happier.


The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.

Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war 
platform.



George





Travis Johnson wrote:
That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 
miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers 
up to 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can 
get hundreds of customers per sector.


Travis
Microserv

Rick Smith wrote:


that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has 
that cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.


Richard Goodin wrote:

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to 
begin delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service 
delivery was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other 
services nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid 
problems.  I have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for 
antennas would be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked 
at bandwidth and shopped it to death.  My best price is $400 from 
Lime Light.  And I've built a couple of servers, acquired some 
switches and a router.  The Router is a Cisco 1750.


My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want 
to keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My 
environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.


Lee




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Richard, A word of advice on competitors. If they were there first, I 
would do my best to cooperate with them and coordinate channels and when 
You fire something up for the first time, You need to call and ask if it 
is causing any problems. In most cases, this goodwill goes a long way in 
letting them know You are a professional and NOT an idiot that worked at 
Wendy's drive thru taking orders yesterday, and now I are a WISP the 
next.. It seems as though I find another AP every other day that some 
moron threw up with a 1 watt amp and 15dBi omni hooked to their cable 
connection, and they are trying to sell it. I will also mention that 
sometimes no amount of goodwill seems to work, and while You may be a 
professional, Your competitors may not be?. If You have to switch 
channels on a daily basis to avoid interference?, then You need to go 
back to the drawing board and re-design Your system to be better than 
theirs.This DOESN'T mean that You should do anything illegal, just make 
a better network than theirs. If anything, THEY should be the ones 
having to switch around if they are non cooperative. I don't know why it 
is, but some people seem to think that there isn't enough customers to 
go around for everyone, when there really is. We have cable, DSL and 2 
other WISP's besides myself, and it seems that none of us have a hard 
time signing up new customers. When I throw up another PoP, I scan to 
see what channels are in use, and how I can best avoid their systems. 
When I put in a new backhaul last year using SmartBridges Nexus radios, 
I called as soon as they were up to see if I had caused any problems to 
my competitors tower that was less than 1/3 of a mile away. These radios 
do a consistant 15Mb using 2.4Ghz and I had no idea how bad they would 
stand on the spectrum to achieve that. As it turns out, I had caused no 
problems because I turned the power down and used high gain antennas so 
that I didn't spray RF all over the place. I still called them to see, 
and if I would have caused a problem, I would have gone back to 

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Travis Johnson




Hi,

Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz
boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

Travis
Microserv

Paul Hendry wrote:

  All the details are on the Valemount web site

http://www.staros.com/starvx/ 

Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

So... Who makes them?, how much?


  
  
Hi Richard,

	This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
seems to improve signal quality.

Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




Guys;
These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a 
WISP

operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other
guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do 
not

need.

Lee


  Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 
  

They



  are like Timex watches.

I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 
  

card


  boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 
  

channel


  sizes.

One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.

Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 
  

pc


  and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers
and I'm happier.

The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.

Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war
platform.


George





Travis Johnson wrote:
  
  
That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 

  

miles


  
(add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 

  

10Mbps.



  
Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of
customers per sector.

Travis
Microserv

Rick Smith wrote:



  that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

  
  
If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has that
cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.

Richard Goodin wrote:



  I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin
delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 
  

  

  

was


  

  

  802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby
(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I have a
50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would be 4 90
degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and shopped 
  

  

  

it


  

  

  to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And I've built a
couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router.  The Router 
  

  

  

is


  

  

  a Cisco 1750.

My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to
keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My
environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.

Lee


  

  

  
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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread George
Travis, it's been awhile, but I think we got almost 40megs on the built 
in star tcp test across 533 5gig PtP link.


Let me find the screen captures.I'm not positive.

Right now all my wars are running at 5MHz and 10MHz channel spacing, 
unless theyare talking to wrap boards.


George

Travis Johnson wrote:

Hi,

Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz 
boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?


Travis
Microserv

Paul Hendry wrote:


All the details are on the Valemount web site

http://www.staros.com/starvx/ 


Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

So... Who makes them?, how much?


 


Hi Richard,

This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
seems to improve signal quality.

Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




Guys;
These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a 
WISP


operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other
guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do 
not


need.

Lee
   

Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 
 


They

   


are like Timex watches.

I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 
 


card
   


boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 
 


channel
   


sizes.

One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.

Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 
 


pc
   


and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers
and I'm happier.

The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.

Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war
platform.


George





Travis Johnson wrote:
 

That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 
   


miles
   

(add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 
   


10Mbps.

   


Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of
customers per sector.

Travis
Microserv

Rick Smith wrote:

   


that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

 


If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has that
cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.

Richard Goodin wrote:

   


I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin
delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 
 


was
   


802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby
(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I have a
50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would be 4 90
degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and shopped 
 


it
   


to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And I've built a
couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router.  The Router 
 


is
   


a Cisco 1750.

My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to
keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My
environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.

Lee


 


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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Forrest W Christian

Richard Goodin wrote:
I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers. 

Since Canopy hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll mention it.

You really can't go wrong with a canopy installation.  It works, even in 
the presence of noise that would kill other systems.  We swapped a dying 
(due to interference) Trango system with a canopy system well over a 
year ago and haven't looked back.   As customers on our existing 802.11b 
network have problems we just swap them to Canopy.


Some here will probably mention canopy's abusive spectrum use.   Yes, 
Motorola uses a very agressive modulation which both provides for 
incredible interference robustness, but unfortunately doesn't play very 
well with others.   Systems with marginal link budget will fail when put 
in the presence of a motorola radio.  I have heard this referred to as 
the 500 pound gorilla approach - I.E. where does a 500 pound gorilla 
set?   Anywhere he wants to.   I find it hard to see this as a 
disavantage to the Canopy operator.  After all this is business, and you 
need to make decisions which improve your bottom line.


One more thing... you need to be very careful about FCC certification of 
systems.  Many of the systems which people put together themselves are 
not legal in the eyes of the FCC.  In short, buying a radio from vendor 
A and pairing it with an antenna from vendor B may or may not be legal, 
even if the EIRP limit is not exceeded.   Plus, you will have vendors 
(distributors mostly) which will lie to you about whether or not a given 
pair is legal.   Currently many WISP's are doing things which are 
definitely not legal under the rules, and count on the FCC's continued 
non-enforcement of the part-15 bands as part of their business plan.   
As being an Amateur Radio operator and seeing what happens when the FCC 
decides to actually pursue enforcement in a band, I wouldn't want to tie 
my continued business survival to illegal equipment.  


-forrest
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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Mark Nash
I have installed my first MT system (RB532 w/daughterboard) and am happy
with it but using it only as an ethernet router at this point.  It seems to
perform better than the Cisco L3 switch (C4840G) we replaced.

But I have not used the Mikrotik for an AP or PtP links. What about Mikrotik
performance  channel spacing?

Mark Nash
Network Engineer
UnwiredOnline.Net
350 Holly Street
Junction City, OR 97448
http://www.uwol.net
541-998-
541-998-5599 fax

- Original Message - 
From: George [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


 Travis Johnson wrote:
  Hi,
 
  Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz
  boards in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?
 
  Travis
  Microserv
 


 Attached is a screen capture from the original 4 port 533 war boards in
 a 10MHz mode running a PtP shot.
 Notice the rate says 27 rather than 54.

 This is the VX platform based on VX works. Lonnie abandoned that and is
 back to Linux

 George

















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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Matt Larsen - Lists
As a former Canopy user, I would like to point out a couple of issues 
not mentioned here.


1)  Canopy is limited to vertical polarity in PTMP deployments.  Trango 
and many other systems can be deployed in horizontal polarity, pretty 
much avoiding any Canopy in the area. 

2)  Canopy systems will be more robust in comparison to other systems 
deployed at the same antenna gain and polarity, and they will also 
coexist nicely with other Canopy systems if they are all running GPS 
sync on the access points.  HOWEVER, non-synced Canopy causes other 
Canopy systems all kinds of problems, and other types of systems will 
take a Canopy system down if the other system has higher gain and runs 
on the same path.  Canopy will run with 3db of signal to noise 
separation, which is more robust than 802.11b for example which needs 
5-6db - but that doesn't make it immune to noise.  There are situations 
where the poor antenna design of the Canopy ends up getting more noise 
and will run worse than a better engineered 802.11b system. 

It is easy to build a 2000lb elephant (legally, I will add) that will 
kick the 500lb gorilla's butt.  Been there, done that.  I'm glad I don't 
have to deal with Canopy any more.


Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Forrest W Christian wrote:

Richard Goodin wrote:
I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers. 

Since Canopy hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll mention it.

You really can't go wrong with a canopy installation.  It works, even 
in the presence of noise that would kill other systems.  We swapped a 
dying (due to interference) Trango system with a canopy system well 
over a year ago and haven't looked back.   As customers on our 
existing 802.11b network have problems we just swap them to Canopy.


Some here will probably mention canopy's abusive spectrum use.   
Yes, Motorola uses a very agressive modulation which both provides for 
incredible interference robustness, but unfortunately doesn't play 
very well with others.   Systems with marginal link budget will fail 
when put in the presence of a motorola radio.  I have heard this 
referred to as the 500 pound gorilla approach - I.E. where does a 500 
pound gorilla set?   Anywhere he wants to.   I find it hard to see 
this as a disavantage to the Canopy operator.  After all this is 
business, and you need to make decisions which improve your bottom line.


One more thing... you need to be very careful about FCC certification 
of systems.  Many of the systems which people put together themselves 
are not legal in the eyes of the FCC.  In short, buying a radio from 
vendor A and pairing it with an antenna from vendor B may or may not 
be legal, even if the EIRP limit is not exceeded.   Plus, you will 
have vendors (distributors mostly) which will lie to you about whether 
or not a given pair is legal.   Currently many WISP's are doing things 
which are definitely not legal under the rules, and count on the FCC's 
continued non-enforcement of the part-15 bands as part of their 
business plan.   As being an Amateur Radio operator and seeing what 
happens when the FCC decides to actually pursue enforcement in a band, 
I wouldn't want to tie my continued business survival to illegal 
equipment. 
-forrest


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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread John Scrivner

Replies inline below:

Richard Goodin wrote:

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 
802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby 
(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I have a 
50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would be 4 90 
degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it 
to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And I've built a 
couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router.  The Router is 
a Cisco 1750.


My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?


There are so many options here that this could be a difficult question 
to answer without a great deal more understanding in what you want to 
do. Here is what I do:


You should have some Wifi based gear for your general purpose Internet 
customer. Having Wifi around is so inexpensive that I think it is 
mandatory to have some form of it available any place you serve 
broadband. It is like having water at a restaurant, you just have to 
have it.  It just makes sense when it costs so little to have it there. 
Sadly the best Wifi solutions available do not have 100% FCC compliance. 
There are some that do though. Tranzeo is a good example. Look at 
Tranzeo for your Wifi based gear needs.


If cost is a significant factor then I would look at Tranzeo, Trango and 
possibly Canopy for your meat and potatoes fixed broadband. Know that 
these systems are not considered to be carrier grade and they have 
limitations. I have used Trango for years with very good value for the 
money and still think you can have a good system using Trango. I am 
guessing Tranzeo is just as good and has some extra speed added. I am 
not a personal fan of Canopy but I know many out there who are and I am 
sure they have their successes and can prove a good value for the money. 
With that said I have reasons to not like Canopy as is my right. I am 
speaking for myself and choose not to use Motorola products in my network.


In 900 MHz I use Waverider. This should be used primarily in places 
where trees and other obstructions make it hard to deliver broadband. 
Where you are located this does not sound like a problem. Waverider 
builds an extremely solid solution for  broadband delivery. I understand 
from others that Trango and Canopy are solid in this space also. I have 
not used them but I have no reason to doubt them. I know Alvarion has a 
900 MHz system but I have not used it nor have I spoken to others who 
have much experience with Alvarion's 900 MHz solutions. 900 MHZ is 
probably not a requirement for you unless it would be just to avoid 
interference in other wireless bands.


I just received (in the last hour) a shipment from Alvarion. I am going 
to start migrating my 5 GHz Trango over to Alvarion BreezeAccess VL 
Product line. I did this for a number of reasons.


I have heard for years from people who have built multi-million dollar 
businesses in the wireless industry that Alvarion is the best. I have 
always regarded Alvarion as a leader in this industry but I have also 
never thought it was worth the added expense. I have changed my mind. I 
have had a great deal of loss of equipment due to lightning and other 
failures. It gets frustrating at each rainy season to start spending 
money like mad to replace bad gear. The reliability of Alvarion is 
attractive to me. I have spoken to many who see years of reliable 
service from VL gear. I want that. I want to have extremely reliable 
networks.


I want to take my network up to a higher standard of performance. I 
intend to expand my wireless network to cover a much larger area and 
serve many times more people than I do now. I find myself running out of 
capacity on my Trango links regularly these days. The Alvarion gear 
offers a great deal more bandwidth and packets per second delivery than 
anything else I have seen.


Alvarion VL is a carrier grade FCC legal delivery system for broadband 
and I want that. I think my network will be worth more money if the day 
ever comes that I would sell my business. I am not looking to sell my 
business but I would have to be a fool not to consider the possibility 
that someday an offer may be made that I would not walk away from. If 
that day comes I want a system that will bring the highest price on the 
market. I believe Alvarion will hold its value better and make my 
business worth more money than any other solutions out there.


Think about where you are now and where you want to be in the next 5 
years, 10 years, 15 years. If you do then the answer(s) will be made for 
you as to which platform(s) to choose for your network. I wish you all 
the best and I hope you will consider going to http://signup.wispa.org/ 
and applying for membership in this organization. We work our tails off 
to help WISP operators regarding policy, technical, 

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Jason Wallace

John Scrivner:
 Sadly the best Wifi solutions available do not have 100% FCC 
compliance. There are some that do though. Tranzeo is a good example. 
Look at Tranzeo for your Wifi based gear needs. 



Tranzeo is 100% FCC legal?  I've been looking for the certs...

Jason
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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread fred
Might I inquire as to where the dishes can be had for $40?

On 4/10/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3
 miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to
 10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get
 hundreds of customers per sector.

 Travis
 Microserv
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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread John Scrivner
I sure thought I saw certs once on their site. I guess maybe you could 
call them and ask for the URL to their FCC certs? If you see this then 
passing those along here would sure be nice.

Thanks,
Scriv


Jason Wallace wrote:


John Scrivner:

 Sadly the best Wifi solutions available do not have 100% FCC 
compliance. There are some that do though. Tranzeo is a good example. 
Look at Tranzeo for your Wifi based gear needs. 



Tranzeo is 100% FCC legal?  I've been looking for the certs...

Jason


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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Jason

To clarify,

I was looking specifically for AP's that were certified for 120deg 
sectors.  I Searched the FCC database and couldn't find anything about 
the Tranzeos.  YMMV, however.  Can anyone clear this up? A link?


Jason

John Scrivner wrote:
I sure thought I saw certs once on their site. I guess maybe you could 
call them and ask for the URL to their FCC certs? If you see this then 
passing those along here would sure be nice.

Thanks,
Scriv


Jason Wallace wrote:


John Scrivner:

 Sadly the best Wifi solutions available do not have 100% FCC 
compliance. There are some that do though. Tranzeo is a good 
example. Look at Tranzeo for your Wifi based gear needs. 



Tranzeo is 100% FCC legal?  I've been looking for the certs...

Jason



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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Forrest W. Christian

John Scrivner wrote:

I sure thought I saw certs once on their site. I guess maybe you could 
call them and ask for the URL to their FCC certs? If you see this then 
passing those along here would sure be nice. 


Tranzeo in the past has played fast and loose with certificates besides 
what they actually ship.  For example, they had a cert for the low power 
radio and the smallest panel, that they were trying to pass off on all 
of their gear, even their highest power radio combined with the biggest 
panel.


It looks like they're getting better, but whether or not they are really 
100% certified is hard to say.


-forrest

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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Rich Comroe
Canopy will run with 3db of signal to noise separation, which is more 
robust than 802.11b


For signal levels typically found in deployed equipment this is not true,
nor has it ever been true.  The Canopy 3dB C/I is measured at stronger 
signal
than typical deployment (unless all your SMs have 20dB or more excess 
signal).

Canopy C/I is pretty much the same as all other technologies I'm aware of at
anywhere from typical to minimum signal levels.  This of course omits the 
high
constellation modulations which we all know requires significantly higher 
C/I.


Rich

- Original Message - 
From: Matt Larsen - Lists [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP


As a former Canopy user, I would like to point out a couple of issues not 
mentioned here.


1)  Canopy is limited to vertical polarity in PTMP deployments.  Trango 
and many other systems can be deployed in horizontal polarity, pretty much 
avoiding any Canopy in the area.
2)  Canopy systems will be more robust in comparison to other systems 
deployed at the same antenna gain and polarity, and they will also coexist 
nicely with other Canopy systems if they are all running GPS sync on the 
access points.  HOWEVER, non-synced Canopy causes other Canopy systems all 
kinds of problems, and other types of systems will take a Canopy system 
down if the other system has higher gain and runs on the same path. 
Canopy will run with 3db of signal to noise separation, which is more 
robust than 802.11b for example which needs 5-6db - but that doesn't make 
it immune to noise.  There are situations where the poor antenna design of 
the Canopy ends up getting more noise and will run worse than a better 
engineered 802.11b system.
It is easy to build a 2000lb elephant (legally, I will add) that will kick 
the 500lb gorilla's butt.  Been there, done that.  I'm glad I don't have 
to deal with Canopy any more.


Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Forrest W Christian wrote:

Richard Goodin wrote:
I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers.

Since Canopy hasn't been mentioned yet, I'll mention it.

You really can't go wrong with a canopy installation.  It works, even in 
the presence of noise that would kill other systems.  We swapped a dying 
(due to interference) Trango system with a canopy system well over a year 
ago and haven't looked back.   As customers on our existing 802.11b 
network have problems we just swap them to Canopy.


Some here will probably mention canopy's abusive spectrum use.   Yes, 
Motorola uses a very agressive modulation which both provides for 
incredible interference robustness, but unfortunately doesn't play very 
well with others.   Systems with marginal link budget will fail when put 
in the presence of a motorola radio.  I have heard this referred to as 
the 500 pound gorilla approach - I.E. where does a 500 pound gorilla set? 
Anywhere he wants to.   I find it hard to see this as a disavantage to 
the Canopy operator.  After all this is business, and you need to make 
decisions which improve your bottom line.


One more thing... you need to be very careful about FCC certification of 
systems.  Many of the systems which people put together themselves are 
not legal in the eyes of the FCC.  In short, buying a radio from vendor A 
and pairing it with an antenna from vendor B may or may not be legal, 
even if the EIRP limit is not exceeded.   Plus, you will have vendors 
(distributors mostly) which will lie to you about whether or not a given 
pair is legal.   Currently many WISP's are doing things which are 
definitely not legal under the rules, and count on the FCC's continued 
non-enforcement of the part-15 bands as part of their business plan.   As 
being an Amateur Radio operator and seeing what happens when the FCC 
decides to actually pursue enforcement in a band, I wouldn't want to tie 
my continued business survival to illegal equipment. -forrest


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RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread danlist








I believe that the atheros chipset is
capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast cpus.




I have several atheros/MT/nstream links
(PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable
channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice system







Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201

1-888-wbsystem (888)
927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]















From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28
AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system
for a new WISP





Hi,

Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in
just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

Travis
Microserv

Paul Hendry wrote: 

All the details are on the Valemount web sitehttp://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 09:15To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPSo... Who makes them?, how much? 

Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes thatGeorge was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and evenseems to improve signal quality.Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 08:09To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPGuys;These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISPoperator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, andsomeone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected byconventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channelspacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These otherguys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do notneed.Lee 

Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 

They 

are like Timex watches.I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 

card 

boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 

channel 

sizes.One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over theplace. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed anomni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 

pc 

and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customersand I'm happier.The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new warplatform.GeorgeTravis Johnson wrote: 

That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 



miles 



(add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 



10Mbps. 



Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds ofcustomers per sector.TravisMicroservRick Smith wrote: 

that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?Brian Rohrbacher wrote: 

If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has thatcpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.Richard Goodin wrote: 

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begindelivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 









was 









802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped 









it 









to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built acouple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router 









is 









a Cisco 1750.My questions:What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want tokeep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. Myenvironment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.Lee 







--WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 

--WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wirelessArchives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/--No virus found in this incoming message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006--No virus found in this outgoing message.Checked by AVG Free Edition.Version: 7.1.385 / Virus Database: 268.4.1/307 - Release Date: 10/04/2006--WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.orgSubscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Travis Johnson




Dan,

We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
another wireless list.

What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I
have seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP
traffic passing thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

Travis
Microserv

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  
  I believe
that the atheros chipset is
capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very
fast cpu’s. 
  
   
  I have
several atheros/MT/nstream links
(PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus
adjustable
channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a
nice system
   
   
  
  Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
  www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201
  1-888-wbsystem
(888)
927-9783
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   
  
  
  
  
  
  From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf
Of Travis Johnson
  Sent: Tuesday, April
11, 2006 9:28
AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA]
Best system
for a new WISP
  
   
  Hi,
  
Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz
boards in
just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?
  
Travis
Microserv
  
Paul Hendry wrote: 
  All the details are on the Valemount web site
   
  http://www.staros.com/starvx/ 
   
  Cheers,
   
  P.
   
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
  Behalf Of Richard Goodin
  Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
  To: wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
   
  So... Who makes them?, how much?
   
   
    
  
Hi Richard,
 
 This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
seems to improve signal quality.
 
Cheers,
 
P.
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
 
 
Guys;
These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a 
WISP
 
operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other
guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do 
not
 
need.
 
Lee
    

  Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 
    

They
 
    

  are like Timex watches.
   
  I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 
    

card
    

  boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
  Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 
    

channel
    

  sizes.
   
  One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
  place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.
   
  Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
  omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 
    

pc
    

  and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers
  and I'm happier.
   
  The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.
   
  Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war
  platform.
   
   
  George
   
   
   
   
   
  Travis Johnson wrote:
    
  
That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 

  

miles
    

  
(add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 

  

10Mbps.
 
    

  
Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of
customers per sector.
 
Travis
Microserv
 
Rick Smith wrote:
 
    

  that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?
   
  Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
   
    
  
If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has that
cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.
 
Richard Goodin wrote:
 
    

  I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin
  delivery of bandwidth

RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread danlist








Im using a standard RB532, IP conn-track
off, I am using the pacwireless outdoor enclosures or the MTI pocket antennas




SR5 cards, nstream enabled, framer policy
dynamic size, limit-3200 is default 4000 works a little better but have
not tested w/ voip



Routing is faster than bridging  cpu
is definitely an issue at 30Mbps  I will be getting a outdoor 1ghz+
system to test which is doing 40Mbps and 80Mbps I believe w/ Turbo





Lots of option, 5mhz, 10mhz, 20mhz or
40mhz channels, possibility of using 2 separate 20mhz links and load-balancing
them for the 60Mbps to 80Mbps





Plus you could go nstream2 and setup FDX
link w/ either dual pol dish or 2 antennas.









Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201

1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]















From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:13
PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system
for a new WISP





Dan,

We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another
wireless list.

What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen
with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru
the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

Travis
Microserv

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

I believe that the atheros chipset is
capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast
cpus. 



I have several atheros/MT/nstream links
(PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps. Pretty impressive throughput, plus
adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available
make a nice system







Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201

1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]















From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28
AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system
for a new WISP





Hi,

Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in
just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

Travis
Microserv

Paul Hendry wrote: 

All the details are on the Valemount web sitehttp://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 09:15To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPSo... Who makes them?, how much? 

Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes thatGeorge was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and evenseems to improve signal quality.Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 08:09To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPGuys;These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISPoperator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, andsomeone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected byconventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channelspacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These otherguys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do notneed.Lee 

Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 

They 

are like Timex watches.I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 

card 

boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 

channel 

sizes.One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over theplace. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed anomni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 

pc 

and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customersand I'm happier.The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new warplatform.GeorgeTravis Johnson wrote: 

That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 



miles 



(add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 



10Mbps. 



Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds ofcustomers per sector.TravisMicroservRick Smith wrote: 

that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?Brian Rohrbacher wrote: 

If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has thatcpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.Richard Goodin wrote: 

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begindelivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery

RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread danlist








I use a lot of different hardware from
Trango, Karlnet, Proxim, and mikrotik polling systems generally perform
better than non-polling  gps sync may scale even better



When I first used the trango 900 series I
liked having the simple design and very easy install unlike karlnet. But I
have had issues w/ firmware, all my APs randomly reboot as well as sus. 



The RB532/MT setup works (the MMCX on the
SR5 and SR2 is nice, never reboots  great throughput  however some assembly
is required  but it only takes a few minutes to screw the board into the
enclosure, the ECS-RJ-45 from pacwireless makes a nice external rj45 jack and connect
the pigtail then add antenna



Having the 2nd antenna port on
the rb532 could be very beneficial although I generally like my PTP Links to be
on separate hardware than my PTMP, but I do have some 5.8ghz PTP links into a
dual rb532, 2nd port is SR2 for wifi



I know that trango is running MT on some
of the hd mesh dardware, looks like it could even be the rb532 board (not
sure)  







Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201

1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]















From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:13
PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system
for a new WISP





Dan,

We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on another
wireless list.

What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have seen
with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing thru
the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

Travis
Microserv

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 

I believe that the atheros chipset is
capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very fast
cpus. 



I have several atheros/MT/nstream links
(PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps. Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable
channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features available make a nice
system







Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201

1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]















From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
On Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28
AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system
for a new WISP





Hi,

Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in
just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

Travis
Microserv

Paul Hendry wrote: 

All the details are on the Valemount web sitehttp://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 09:15To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPSo... Who makes them?, how much? 

Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes thatGeorge was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and evenseems to improve signal quality.Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 08:09To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPGuys;These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISPoperator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, andsomeone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected byconventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channelspacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These otherguys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do notneed.Lee 

Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 

They 

are like Timex watches.I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 

card 

boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 

channel 

sizes.One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over theplace. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed anomni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 

pc 

and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customersand I'm happier.The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new warplatform.GeorgeTravis Johnson wrote: 

That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 



miles 



(add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 



10Mbps. 



Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds ofcustomers per sector.TravisMicroservRick Smith wrote: 

that's only quantity (large

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler
Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps
of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data.

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Dan,

  We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
 another wireless list.

  What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have
 seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing
 thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

  Travis
  Microserv


  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT
 have claimed higher using very fast cpu's.



 I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps….
 Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP
 and all the other features available make a nice system






 Dan Metcalf
  Wireless Broadband Systems
  www.wbisp.com
  781-566-2053 ext 6201

 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




  


 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis
 Johnson
  Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



 Hi,

  Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards
 in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

  Travis
  Microserv

  Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site

  http://www.staros.com/starvx/

  Cheers,

  P.

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Richard Goodin
  Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
  To: wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

  So... Who makes them?, how much?




  Hi Richard,

  This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
  George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
  seems to improve signal quality.

  Cheers,

  P.

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Richard Goodin
  Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
  To: wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




  Guys;
  These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a
  WISP

  operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
  another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
  someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
  conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
  spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other
  guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do
  not

  need.

  Lee


  Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use.

  They



  are like Timex watches.

  I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2

  card


  boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
  Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz

  channel


  sizes.

  One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
  place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.

  Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
  omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the

  pc


  and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers
  and I'm happier.

  The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.

  Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war
  platform.


  George





  Travis Johnson wrote:


  That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3

  miles



  (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to

  10Mbps.




  Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of
  customers per sector.

  Travis
  Microserv

  Rick Smith wrote:



  that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

  Brian Rohrbacher wrote:



  If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has that
  cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.

  Richard Goodin wrote:



  I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin
  delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery

  was






  802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby
  (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I have a
  50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would be 4 90
  degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and shopped

  it






  to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And I've built a
  couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router.  The Router

  is






  a Cisco 1750.

  My questions:

  What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to
  keep

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Travis Johnson




Dan,

I have talked with many people (including Butch Evans that is the MT
consultant) and he has never seen anything over 21Mbps with the RB532. 

I have the exact configuration you have described running on a 9 mile
link and 17 mile link. With the 17 mile link, I have MT routers on
either side of the ptp link with the RB532's (running at 330Mhz by the
way) and I have never seen more than 21Mbps doing transfers both
directions at the same time. 

Are you sure you are doing TCP and not UDP when you run the bandwidth
test?

Travis
Microserv

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
  
  
  
  I’m using a
standard RB532, IP conn-track
off, I am using the pacwireless outdoor enclosures or the MTI pocket
antennas…
  
   
  SR5 cards,
nstream enabled, framer policy
dynamic size,  limit-3200 is default 4000 works a little better but
have
not tested w/ voip
   
  Routing is
faster than bridging – cpu
is definitely an issue at 30Mbps – I will be getting a outdoor 1ghz+
system to test which is doing 40Mbps and 80Mbps I believe w/ Turbo
   
   
  Lots of
option, 5mhz, 10mhz, 20mhz or
40mhz channels, possibility of using 2 separate 20mhz links and
load-balancing
them for the 60Mbps to 80Mbps
   
   
  Plus you
could go nstream2 and setup FDX
link w/ either dual pol dish or 2 antenna’s.
   
   
   
  
  Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
  www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201
  1-888-wbsystem (888)
927-9783
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   
  
  
  
  
  
  From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf
Of Travis Johnson
  Sent: Tuesday, April
11, 2006 8:13
PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA]
Best system
for a new WISP
  
   
  Dan,
  
We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
another
wireless list.
  
What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I
have seen
with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing
thru
the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?
  
Travis
Microserv
  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 
  I believe
that the atheros chipset is
capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT have claimed higher using very
fast
cpu’s.  
   
  I have
several atheros/MT/nstream links
(PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps…. Pretty impressive throughput, plus
adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP and all the other features
available
make a nice system
   
   
  
  Dan Metcalf
Wireless Broadband Systems
  www.wbisp.com
781-566-2053 ext 6201
  1-888-wbsystem (888)
927-9783
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   
  
  
  
  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
  On Behalf Of Travis
Johnson
  Sent: Tuesday, April
11, 2006 9:28
AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA]
Best system
for a new WISP
  
   
  Hi,
  
Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz
boards in
just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?
  
Travis
Microserv
  
Paul Hendry wrote: 
  All the details are on the Valemount web site
   
  http://www.staros.com/starvx/ 
   
  Cheers,
   
  P.
   
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
  Behalf Of Richard Goodin
  Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
  To: wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
   
  So... Who makes them?, how much?
   
   
    
  
Hi Richard,
 
 This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
seems to improve signal quality.
 
Cheers,
 
P.
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
 
 
 
 
Guys;
These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a 
WISP
 
operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other
guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do 
not
 
need.
 
Lee
    

  Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 
    

They
 
    

  are like Timex watches.
   
  I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 
    

card
    

  boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
  Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 
    

channel
    

  sizes.
   
  One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Travis Johnson




Lonnie,

Is that TCP or UDP?

Travis
Microserv

Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

  Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps
of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data.

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
 Dan,

 We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
another wireless list.

 What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have
seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing
thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

 Travis
 Microserv


 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT
have claimed higher using very fast cpu's.



I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps….
Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP
and all the other features available make a nice system






Dan Metcalf
 Wireless Broadband Systems
 www.wbisp.com
 781-566-2053 ext 6201

1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis
Johnson
 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



Hi,

 Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards
in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

 Travis
 Microserv

 Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site

 http://www.staros.com/starvx/

 Cheers,

 P.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
 Behalf Of Richard Goodin
 Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
 To: wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

 So... Who makes them?, how much?




 Hi Richard,

 This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
 George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
 seems to improve signal quality.

 Cheers,

 P.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
 Behalf Of Richard Goodin
 Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
 To: wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




 Guys;
 These all sound great.  I was reading just a couple months back about a
 WISP

 operator that had a severe problem.  Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
 another guy put up his tower.  I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
 someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
 conventional systems.  Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
 spacing or coding.  I really feel that stealth is best here.  These other
 guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do
 not

 need.

 Lee


 Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use.

 They



 are like Timex watches.

 I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2

 card


 boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
 Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz

 channel


 sizes.

 One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
 place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.

 Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
 omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the

 pc


 and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers
 and I'm happier.

 The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.

 Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war
 platform.


 George





 Travis Johnson wrote:


 That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3

 miles



 (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to

 10Mbps.




 Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of
 customers per sector.

 Travis
 Microserv

 Rick Smith wrote:



 that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

 Brian Rohrbacher wrote:



 If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has that
 cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.

 Richard Goodin wrote:



 I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin
 delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery

 was






 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby
 (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I have a
 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would be 4 90
 degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and shopped

 it






 to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And I've built a
 couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router.  The Router

 is






 a Cisco 1750.

 My questions:

 What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to
 keep interferance to a minimum

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Lonnie Nunweiler
It is TCP.  We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never
be seen by a customer doing an FTP download.  We are looking at
building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in
future.

I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100
km of repeater distances.  The shot is split in half with mountain
shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to
the POP in each town.  We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP.  It
is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios.  I have pasted a speed test from
the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride.  Both are Linux systems
with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth
control.  Also I have the traceroute to show the hops.

lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx
rx rate: 2286 KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
lon-home:~/staros #

lon-home:~/staros # traceroute 10.10.29.1
traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  192.168.250.10  0.430 ms   0.401 ms   0.496 ms
 2  10.10.48.254  1.655 ms   1.447 ms   1.185 ms
 3  10.10.227.254  2.686 ms   1.965 ms   5.428 ms
 4  10.10.12.4  5.469 ms   3.250 ms   4.501 ms
 5  10.10.47.253  4.946 ms   4.415 ms   3.581 ms
 6  10.10.51.254  6.077 ms   6.472 ms   8.063 ms
 7  10.14.99.254  12.615 ms *   5.777 ms
 8  10.10.29.1  6.569 ms   7.295 ms   7.686 ms
lon-home:~/staros #

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Lonnie,

  Is that TCP or UDP?

  Travis
  Microserv


  Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:
  Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps
 of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data.

 Lonnie

 On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


  Dan,

  We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
 another wireless list.

  What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have
 seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing
 thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

  Travis
  Microserv


  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT
 have claimed higher using very fast cpu's.



 I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps….
 Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP
 and all the other features available make a nice system






 Dan Metcalf
  Wireless Broadband Systems
  www.wbisp.com
  781-566-2053 ext 6201

 1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




  


 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Travis
 Johnson
  Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



 Hi,

  Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards
 in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

  Travis
  Microserv

  Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site

  http://www.staros.com/starvx/

  Cheers,

  P.

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Richard Goodin
  Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
  To: wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

  So... Who makes them?, how much?




  Hi Richard,

  This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
  George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
  seems to improve signal quality.

  Cheers,

  P.

  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
  Behalf Of Richard Goodin
  Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
  To: wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




  Guys;
  These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a
  WISP

  operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
  another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
  someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
  conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
  spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other
  guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do
  not

  need.

  Lee


  Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use.

  They



  are like Timex watches.

  I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2

  card


  boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
  Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz

  channel


  sizes.

  One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
  place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.

  Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
  omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the

  pc


  and it's a lot

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Dylan Oliver
How is any product qualified as 'Carrier-Grade'? What is it about
Alvarion VL that makes the cut vs. Canopy? Lord knows Motorola produces
far more 'Carrier-Grade' equipment than Alvarion ever will - so where
did they go wrong with Canopy?

Also, I've heard lately several complaints that Waverider has trouble
sustaining even 1 Mbps throughput ... what is your experience, John?

Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC
-- 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Travis Johnson




That is very impressive... :)

Travis
Microserv

Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:

  It is TCP.  We do not use UDP since it gives a reading that will never
be seen by a customer doing an FTP download.  We are looking at
building in iperf so we should be able to do tcp or udp tests in
future.

I have a network from Valemount, BC to McBride, BC that has about 100
km of repeater distances.  The shot is split in half with mountain
shots at each (43 km each) and about 5 km from each mountain top to
the POP in each town.  We can pull over 20 mbps from POP to POP.  It
is 8 hops and goes through 10 radios.  I have pasted a speed test from
the POP in Valemount to the POP in McBride.  Both are Linux systems
with 1 GHz or better processors that we use for firewall and bandwidth
control.  Also I have the traceroute to show the hops.

lon-home:~/staros # starutil-1.14 10.10.29.1 password -rx
rx rate: 2286 KB/sec  (Press Ctrl-C to exit)
lon-home:~/staros #

lon-home:~/staros # traceroute 10.10.29.1
traceroute to 10.10.29.1 (10.10.29.1), 30 hops max, 40 byte packets
 1  192.168.250.10  0.430 ms   0.401 ms   0.496 ms
 2  10.10.48.254  1.655 ms   1.447 ms   1.185 ms
 3  10.10.227.254  2.686 ms   1.965 ms   5.428 ms
 4  10.10.12.4  5.469 ms   3.250 ms   4.501 ms
 5  10.10.47.253  4.946 ms   4.415 ms   3.581 ms
 6  10.10.51.254  6.077 ms   6.472 ms   8.063 ms
 7  10.14.99.254  12.615 ms *   5.777 ms
 8  10.10.29.1  6.569 ms   7.295 ms   7.686 ms
lon-home:~/staros #

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  
 Lonnie,

 Is that TCP or UDP?

 Travis
 Microserv


 Lonnie Nunweiler wrote:
 Using the 533 MHz IXP-420 we can get an Atheros to just over 35 mbps
of non compressible data and almost 90 mbps of compressible data.

Lonnie

On 4/11/06, Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Dan,

 We had this discussion a few weeks ago, although it may have been on
another wireless list.

 What processor and setup are you using to get 30Mbps? The fastest I have
seen with routerboard 532's in a p2p config is 20Mbps of TCP traffic passing
thru the RB's. Do you have outdoor enclosures?

 Travis
 Microserv


 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



I believe that the atheros chipset is capped at 35Mbps, although users of MT
have claimed higher using very fast cpu's.



I have several atheros/MT/nstream links (PTP and PTMP) that push 30Mbps….
Pretty impressive throughput, plus adjustable channels, plus QoS for VoIP
and all the other features available make a nice system






Dan Metcalf
 Wireless Broadband Systems
 www.wbisp.com
 781-566-2053 ext 6201

1-888-wbsystem (888) 927-9783
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 support: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Travis
Johnson
 Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 9:28 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP



Hi,

 Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards
in just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

 Travis
 Microserv

 Paul Hendry wrote: All the details are on the Valemount web site

 http://www.staros.com/starvx/

 Cheers,

 P.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
 Behalf Of Richard Goodin
 Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
 To: wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

 So... Who makes them?, how much?




 Hi Richard,

 This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
 George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
 seems to improve signal quality.

 Cheers,

 P.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
 Behalf Of Richard Goodin
 Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
 To: wireless@wispa.org
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




 Guys;
 These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a
 WISP

 operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
 another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
 someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
 conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
 spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other
 guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do
 not

 need.

 Lee


 Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use.

 They



 are like Timex watches.

 I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2

 card


 boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
 Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz

 channel


 sizes.

 One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
 place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.

 Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
 omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the

 pc


 and it's a lot

RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Chad Halsted








Travis,



I have a StarOS PTP link using the 533mhz
WAR boards that get up to 33Mbps (TCP). Thats using CM9 atheros
cards and 2 PacWireless Dishes. 











From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 8:28
AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system
for a new WISP





Hi,

Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz boards in
just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?

Travis
Microserv

Paul Hendry wrote: 

All the details are on the Valemount web sitehttp://www.staros.com/starvx/ Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 09:15To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPSo... Who makes them?, how much? 

Hi Richard, This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes thatGeorge was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and evenseems to improve signal quality.Cheers,P.-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Richard GoodinSent: 11 April 2006 08:09To: wireless@wispa.orgSubject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISPGuys;These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a WISPoperator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, andsomeone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected byconventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channelspacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These otherguys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do notneed.Lee 

Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 

They 

are like Timex watches.I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 

card 

boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 

channel 

sizes.One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over theplace. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed anomni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 

pc 

and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customersand I'm happier.The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new warplatform.GeorgeTravis Johnson wrote: 

That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 



miles 



(add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 



10Mbps. 



Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds ofcustomers per sector.TravisMicroservRick Smith wrote: 

that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?Brian Rohrbacher wrote: 

If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has thatcpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.Richard Goodin wrote: 

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begindelivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 









was 









802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped 









it 









to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built acouple of servers, acquired some switches and a router. The Router 









is 









a Cisco 1750.My questions:What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment? I want tokeep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs. Myenvironment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.Lee 







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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-11 Thread Travis Johnson




Chad,

Based on your post, I just purchased a couple 533mhz boards with CM9
cards from Lonnie. :)

Travis
Microserv

Chad Halsted wrote:

  
  

  
  
  Travis,
  
  I have a
StarOS PTP link using the 533mhz
WAR boards that get up to 33Mbps (TCP). Thats using CM9 atheros
cards and 2 PacWireless Dishes. 
  
  
  
  
  From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf
Of Travis Johnson
  Sent: Tuesday, April
11, 2006 8:28
AM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA]
Best system
for a new WISP
  
  
  Hi,
  
Does anyone know actual TCP throughput with StarOS on their 533mhz
boards in
just a point to point config, using 20mhz of spectrum?
  
Travis
Microserv
  
Paul Hendry wrote: 
  All the details are on the Valemount web site
  
  http://www.staros.com/starvx/ 
  
  Cheers,
  
  P.
  
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
  Behalf Of Richard Goodin
  Sent: 11 April 2006 09:15
  To: wireless@wispa.org
  Subject: RE: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP
  
  So... Who makes them?, how much?
  
  
   
  
Hi Richard,

 This cloaking mechanism is the 5MHz and 10MHz channel sizes that
George was referring to on the Star WAR boards. Works really well and even
seems to improve signal quality.

Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Richard Goodin
Sent: 11 April 2006 08:09
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP




Guys;
These all sound great. I was reading just a couple months back about a 
WISP

operator that had a severe problem. Just a few yards away, maybe 300 feet,
another guy put up his tower. I think they were both on 2.4 GHZ, and
someone suggested a different AP that would not even be detected by
conventional systems. Something about nonstandard bandwidth, channel
spacing or coding. I really feel that stealth is best here. These other
guys have been in business for a while and could cause trouble that I do 
not

need.

Lee
 

  Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 
  

They

 

  are like Timex watches.
  
  I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 
  

card
 

  boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
  Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 
  

channel
 

  sizes.
  
  One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the
  place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.
  
  Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an
  omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 
  

pc
 

  and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier customers
  and I'm happier.
  
  The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.
  
  Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war
  platform.
  
  
  George
  
  
  
  
  
  Travis Johnson wrote:
   
  
That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 

  

miles
 

  
(add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 

  

10Mbps.

 

  
Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get hundreds of
customers per sector.

Travis
Microserv

Rick Smith wrote:

 

  that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?
  
  Brian Rohrbacher wrote:
  
   
  
If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8. Trango has that
cpe for $150. Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.

Richard Goodin wrote:

 

  I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin
  delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 
  

  

  

was
 

  

  

  802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby
  (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems. I have a
  50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g. My choice for antennas would be 4 90
  degree horizontal antennas. I have looked at bandwidth and shopped 
  

  

  

it
 

  

  

  to death. My best price is $400 from Lime Light. And I've built

Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-10 Thread Brian Rohrbacher
If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has that 
cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.


Richard Goodin wrote:

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery was 
802.11b, but with increased competition from other services nearby 
(about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I have a 
50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would be 4 90 
degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and shopped it 
to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And I've built a 
couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router.  The Router is 
a Cisco 1750.


My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to 
keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My 
environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.


Lee



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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-10 Thread Rick Smith

that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has that 
cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.


Richard Goodin wrote:

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 
was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services 
nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I 
have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would 
be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and 
shopped it to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And 
I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a router.  
The Router is a Cisco 1750.


My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to 
keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My 
environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.


Lee



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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-10 Thread Brian Rohrbacher

Qty 30 (last I heard, I don't use them)

Rick Smith wrote:


that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has 
that cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.


Richard Goodin wrote:

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 
was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services 
nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I 
have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would 
be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and 
shopped it to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And 
I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a 
router.  The Router is a Cisco 1750.


My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to 
keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My 
environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.


Lee



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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-10 Thread Travis Johnson
That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 
miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 
10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get 
hundreds of customers per sector.


Travis
Microserv

Rick Smith wrote:


that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has 
that cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.


Richard Goodin wrote:

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 
was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services 
nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I 
have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would 
be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and 
shopped it to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And 
I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a 
router.  The Router is a Cisco 1750.


My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to 
keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My 
environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.


Lee



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Re: [WISPA] Best system for a new WISP

2006-04-10 Thread George
Trango does make a good product. I still have 2 Sunstream AP's in use. 
They are like Timex watches.


I'm using Star War boards. A little bit more than the trango s. The 2 
card boards in a 5 gig rootenna let me use the 2nd card for an omni.
Speeds are about 20+ megs or so and I cloak down to 5MHz and 10MHz 
channel sizes.


One of the things I've been doing is slapping up repeaters all over the 
place. Cheap as hell, about 400.00 or so.


Lately I've ran lmr400 into some of my customers attics and installed an 
omni for their home wifi. We tend to service our customers right to the 
pc and it's a lot better router than a linksys. And I have happier 
customers and I'm happier.


The 2 port and the 4 port both have dual ethernet as well.

Pretty versatile product. Lonnie has come along way with the new war 
platform.



George





Travis Johnson wrote:
That's on quantity 30 $149 each. 5.8ghz, dual polarity, up to 3 
miles (add $40 for a dish and it goes up to 13 miles) and delivers up to 
10Mbps. Hard to beat! And with SmartPolling on the AP, you can get 
hundreds of customers per sector.


Travis
Microserv

Rick Smith wrote:


that's only quantity (large!) pricing isn't it ?

Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

If it's pretty absent of trees you might look at 5.8.  Trango has 
that cpe for $150.  Not going to find any propriety gear cheaper.


Richard Goodin wrote:

I have been planning my WISP for about a year, and have yet to begin 
delivery of bandwidth to customers. My choice for service delivery 
was 802.11b, but with increased competition from other services 
nearby (about 5 miles away) I am wondering how to avoid problems.  I 
have a 50' tower, and it is ROHN 45g.  My choice for antennas would 
be 4 90 degree horizontal antennas.  I have looked at bandwidth and 
shopped it to death.  My best price is $400 from Lime Light.  And 
I've built a couple of servers, acquired some switches and a 
router.  The Router is a Cisco 1750.


My questions:

What CPE's and AP's would work best in this environment?  I want to 
keep interferance to a minimum, as well as control costs.  My 
environment includes lots of desert, and single story buildings.


Lee




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