Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
I think it would make great sense. It would increase security for the peers as well, if it could get it from a local user more often and a less often from a potentially entertainment industry monitored source. We also use private ASNs at sites, and we have one Internet-facing public ASN encompassing all our network. So if it had a means of preferring peers with fewer AS hops, that would seem most efficient and compatible. On Tue, Dec 09, 2008 at 05:41:51PM -0600, Matt wrote: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/05/richard_bennett_bittorrent_udp/ Would it not make sense for bittorrrent clients to have a preference to share with users under the same AS number? Would not help much on last mile but might on Internet backbone. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- /* Jason Philbrook | Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and DSL KB1IOJ| Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and Hosting http://f64.nu/ | for Midcoast Mainehttp://www.midcoast.com/ */ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proactive_network_Provider_Participation_for_P2P P4P is trying to do something very much like that. Lots of issues to work out as yet. P2P will evolve but likely will be a mix of P2P/P4P. I know I would love to have a P2P cache box to ease/defray the load (off peak, priority, etc) but the legality of such is questionable. Matt wrote: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/05/richard_bennett_bittorrent_udp/ Would it not make sense for bittorrrent clients to have a preference to share with users under the same AS number? Would not help much on last mile but might on Internet backbone. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
Comcast admitted lying about it. Josh Luthman wrote: I don't believe it is the provider's responsibility to ensure its customers have read the AUP or abide by it. The customer put their signatures down signing that they agree to the terms. It may not be the providers responsibility, but it IS good customer relations. All my users know I reserve the right to limit their traffic if they become a problem. And out of 200+, I have 4 that have been limited. All have teens that use bittorrent and won't use the timer that is built in. At this point it is only reasonable to act as one would like to be treated (the golden rule!) I don't believe Comcast lied nor lied about it. I read in the news that they announced their monthly bandwidth limits and Bittorent throttling practices became well known. Is this not the case? I do believe that limiting the type of traffic is wrong, however the amount is fair game based. There are many policies in place in nearly every terms and conditions written that are simply outrageous - but the company can not and should not act upon these unless forced by the customer. Off the top of my head the one that most people practice is the recording of shows or movies - this does go against the terms of most providers. Still, there are VCRs and DVRs to break this rule. How the terms are written now with DVRs so popular I can't say, though. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you put it in your AUP, and make sure your users know about it, then you are fine. It is the hiding of it and lying about it that got comcast in trouble. Jeff Broadwick wrote: That, and if you block it you risk running afoul of the same FCC that hammered Comcast. Just because you aren't huge you aren't immune. If a customer complains you have the burden of proof that you are not blocking ptp or any other service. Doesn't even have to be your customer. Any internet customer who uses ptp can complain about your service since theoretically they could receive content from someone on your network! You CAN manage traffic on your network, but only during times of congestion. "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you" Jeff ImageStream -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 10:32 -0500, Brian Rohrbacher wrote: Darn, so there isn't a good way to block it anymore. Well, it will be MUCH more difficult to manage, that is a certainty. It will be MUCH more expensive in terms of CPU requirements as well as network utilization that will happen in spite of your efforts to manage it. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermai
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
Can you go into detail on to what happened or some information to it? All I saw was the nice and clean 500gigs/mo is enough for everyone, we're limiting torrent traffic announcements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually they got in trouble for both lying and what they were actually doing. Jeff _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blair Davis Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release If you put it in your AUP, and make sure your users know about it, then you are fine. It is the hiding of it and lying about it that got comcast in trouble. Jeff Broadwick wrote: That, and if you block it you risk running afoul of the same FCC that hammered Comcast. Just because you aren't huge you aren't immune. If a customer complains you have the burden of proof that you are not blocking ptp or any other service. Doesn't even have to be your customer. Any internet customer who uses ptp can complain about your service since theoretically they could receive content from someone on your network! You CAN manage traffic on your network, but only during times of congestion. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you Jeff ImageStream -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 10:32 -0500, Brian Rohrbacher wrote: Darn, so there isn't a good way to block it anymore. Well, it will be MUCH more difficult to manage, that is a certainty. It will be MUCH more expensive in terms of CPU requirements as well as network utilization that will happen in spite of your efforts to manage it. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
I absolutely agree that it is good customer relations, but how can anyone expect to get to 1000 customers from 200 when you're busy being best friends with everyone and making sure they understand bandwidth limits (especially when there are some people that just do not understand). Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Comcast admitted lying about it. Josh Luthman wrote: I don't believe it is the provider's responsibility to ensure its customers have read the AUP or abide by it. The customer put their signatures down signing that they agree to the terms. It may not be the providers responsibility, but it IS good customer relations. All my users know I reserve the right to limit their traffic if they become a problem. And out of 200+, I have 4 that have been limited. All have teens that use bittorrent and won't use the timer that is built in. At this point it is only reasonable to act as one would like to be treated (the golden rule!) I don't believe Comcast lied nor lied about it. I read in the news that they announced their monthly bandwidth limits and Bittorent throttling practices became well known. Is this not the case? I do believe that limiting the type of traffic is wrong, however the amount is fair game based. There are many policies in place in nearly every terms and conditions written that are simply outrageous - but the company can not and should not act upon these unless forced by the customer. Off the top of my head the one that most people practice is the recording of shows or movies - this does go against the terms of most providers. Still, there are VCRs and DVRs to break this rule. How the terms are written now with DVRs so popular I can't say, though. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:09 PM, Blair Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you put it in your AUP, and make sure your users know about it, then you are fine. It is the hiding of it and lying about it that got comcast in trouble. Jeff Broadwick wrote: That, and if you block it you risk running afoul of the same FCC that hammered Comcast. Just because you aren't huge you aren't immune. If a customer complains you have the burden of proof that you are not blocking ptp or any other service. Doesn't even have to be your customer. Any internet customer who uses ptp can complain about your service since theoretically they could receive content from someone on your network! You CAN manage traffic on your network, but only during times of congestion. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you Jeff ImageStream -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 10:32 -0500, Brian Rohrbacher wrote: Darn, so there isn't a good way to block it anymore. Well, it will be MUCH more difficult to manage, that is a certainty. It will be MUCH more expensive in terms of CPU requirements as well as network utilization that will happen in spite of your efforts to manage it. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today!http
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
Josh Luthman wrote: I don't believe Comcast lied nor lied about it. I read in the news that they announced their monthly bandwidth limits and Bittorent throttling practices became well known. Is this not the case? I do believe that limiting the type of traffic is wrong, however the amount is fair game based. A lie of omission is still a lie. Comcast first claimed they weren't doing any traffic shaping, even when confronted with packet logs and other hard evidence that something really squirrely was going on. Only later did they finally fess up to using the Sandvine appliance in some markets. And they didn't tell their customers about the P2P shaping until they basically had no choice. (The bit-caps were well publicized, but that's an entirely different issue.) Last I checked, they were doing what they did for different reasons than what most WISPs would probably do. My understanding is that P2P within Comcast's network, between different Comcast users, was generally unthrottled; it was only traffic leaving their network that ran into weird problems. They were doing it to save money on upstreams and interconnect; I know I do it to keep my wi-fi towers from falling over. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
I see - didn't hear that they denied traffic shaping. I must be behind on the information as I only heard they announced their network was doing so. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:36 PM, David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Josh Luthman wrote: I don't believe Comcast lied nor lied about it. I read in the news that they announced their monthly bandwidth limits and Bittorent throttling practices became well known. Is this not the case? I do believe that limiting the type of traffic is wrong, however the amount is fair game based. A lie of omission is still a lie. Comcast first claimed they weren't doing any traffic shaping, even when confronted with packet logs and other hard evidence that something really squirrely was going on. Only later did they finally fess up to using the Sandvine appliance in some markets. And they didn't tell their customers about the P2P shaping until they basically had no choice. (The bit-caps were well publicized, but that's an entirely different issue.) Last I checked, they were doing what they did for different reasons than what most WISPs would probably do. My understanding is that P2P within Comcast's network, between different Comcast users, was generally unthrottled; it was only traffic leaving their network that ran into weird problems. They were doing it to save money on upstreams and interconnect; I know I do it to keep my wi-fi towers from falling over. David Smith MVN.net WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
Initially they didn't say what they were, just that you as a customer broke their imaginary limit, and therefore are without service. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Josh Luthman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 1:32 PM To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release Can you go into detail on to what happened or some information to it? All I saw was the nice and clean 500gigs/mo is enough for everyone, we're limiting torrent traffic announcements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually they got in trouble for both lying and what they were actually doing. Jeff _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blair Davis Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release If you put it in your AUP, and make sure your users know about it, then you are fine. It is the hiding of it and lying about it that got comcast in trouble. Jeff Broadwick wrote: That, and if you block it you risk running afoul of the same FCC that hammered Comcast. Just because you aren't huge you aren't immune. If a customer complains you have the burden of proof that you are not blocking ptp or any other service. Doesn't even have to be your customer. Any internet customer who uses ptp can complain about your service since theoretically they could receive content from someone on your network! You CAN manage traffic on your network, but only during times of congestion. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you Jeff ImageStream -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 10:32 -0500, Brian Rohrbacher wrote: Darn, so there isn't a good way to block it anymore. Well, it will be MUCH more difficult to manage, that is a certainty. It will be MUCH more expensive in terms of CPU requirements as well as network utilization that will happen in spite of your efforts to manage it. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
Here is an article that outlines what happened. I don't agree with the slant of the writer, but the info you are looking for is there. http://www.naturalnews.com/024391.html Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release Can you go into detail on to what happened or some information to it? All I saw was the nice and clean 500gigs/mo is enough for everyone, we're limiting torrent traffic announcements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually they got in trouble for both lying and what they were actually doing. Jeff _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blair Davis Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release If you put it in your AUP, and make sure your users know about it, then you are fine. It is the hiding of it and lying about it that got comcast in trouble. Jeff Broadwick wrote: That, and if you block it you risk running afoul of the same FCC that hammered Comcast. Just because you aren't huge you aren't immune. If a customer complains you have the burden of proof that you are not blocking ptp or any other service. Doesn't even have to be your customer. Any internet customer who uses ptp can complain about your service since theoretically they could receive content from someone on your network! You CAN manage traffic on your network, but only during times of congestion. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you Jeff ImageStream -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 10:32 -0500, Brian Rohrbacher wrote: Darn, so there isn't a good way to block it anymore. Well, it will be MUCH more difficult to manage, that is a certainty. It will be MUCH more expensive in terms of CPU requirements as well as network utilization that will happen in spite of your efforts to manage it. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
Probably a better source here: http://www.networkworld.com/news/2008/071708-comcast-fcc.html -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Broadwick Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 3:38 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release Here is an article that outlines what happened. I don't agree with the slant of the writer, but the info you are looking for is there. http://www.naturalnews.com/024391.html Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh Luthman Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:33 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release Can you go into detail on to what happened or some information to it? All I saw was the nice and clean 500gigs/mo is enough for everyone, we're limiting torrent traffic announcements. Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly. --- Henry Spencer On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 2:30 PM, Jeff Broadwick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually they got in trouble for both lying and what they were actually doing. Jeff _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Blair Davis Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 2:09 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release If you put it in your AUP, and make sure your users know about it, then you are fine. It is the hiding of it and lying about it that got comcast in trouble. Jeff Broadwick wrote: That, and if you block it you risk running afoul of the same FCC that hammered Comcast. Just because you aren't huge you aren't immune. If a customer complains you have the burden of proof that you are not blocking ptp or any other service. Doesn't even have to be your customer. Any internet customer who uses ptp can complain about your service since theoretically they could receive content from someone on your network! You CAN manage traffic on your network, but only during times of congestion. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you Jeff ImageStream -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Butch Evans Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 10:37 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release On Tue, 2008-12-09 at 10:32 -0500, Brian Rohrbacher wrote: Darn, so there isn't a good way to block it anymore. Well, it will be MUCH more difficult to manage, that is a certainty. It will be MUCH more expensive in terms of CPU requirements as well as network utilization that will happen in spite of your efforts to manage it. -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/05/richard_bennett_bittorrent_udp/ Would it not make sense for bittorrrent clients to have a preference to share with users under the same AS number? Would not help much on last mile but might on Internet backbone. Matt WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
Think the author had it right the first time. Steve Barnes RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Drew Lentz Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/05/richard_bennett_bittorrent_udp/ ³The next official release of the uTorrent client currently in alpha test replaces TCP with a custom-built transport protocol called uTP, layered over the same UDP protocol used by VoIP and gaming. According to BitTorrent marketing manager Simon Morris, the motivation for this switch (which I incorrectly characterized in The Register earlier this week as merely another attempt to escape traffic shaping) is to better detect and avoid network congestion.² WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
To me this is the scary part: The overall picture suggests that uTP has a serious flaw. If it simply relies on latency measurements to find preferred paths, it¹s likely to favor paths where it¹s successfully circumventing management. When a path is managed to give UDP priority over TCP (as is apparently the case in the Bell Canada network,) uTP will see that path as uncongested even as it's struggling to deliver TCP. In this case, uTP will in fact impair other applications, as we suggested in our previous piece. Another solution would be for traffic shapers to look inside the UDP payload in order to differentiate VoIP from uTP, but this approach is frustrated by the protocol obfuscation option that remains a live feature in BitTorrent over uTP. uTP will cause traffic shaping to become more expensive. On 12/8/08 11:02 AM, Steve Barnes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Think the author had it right the first time. Steve Barnes RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Drew Lentz Sent: Monday, December 08, 2008 10:55 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/12/05/richard_bennett_bittorrent_udp/ ³The next official release of the uTorrent client currently in alpha test replaces TCP with a custom-built transport protocol called uTP, layered over the same UDP protocol used by VoIP and gaming. According to BitTorrent marketing manager Simon Morris, the motivation for this switch (which I incorrectly characterized in The Register earlier this week as merely another attempt to escape traffic shaping) is to better detect and avoid network congestion.² -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- -- WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ -- -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
On Mon, 2008-12-08 at 12:03 -0600, Drew Lentz wrote: Another solution would be for traffic shapers to look inside the UDP payload in order to differentiate VoIP from uTP, but this approach is frustrated by the protocol obfuscation option that remains a live feature in BitTorrent over uTP. uTP will cause traffic shaping to become more expensive. The only problem with this approach is the reality that MOST bittorrent clients are encrypting their traffic these days and MANY of the VoIP products are encrypted as well. SIGH. Glad I'm not an ISP any more... -- * Butch Evans * Professional Network Consultation* * http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering * * http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member * * http://blog.butchevans.com/ * Wired or Wireless Networks * WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] BitTorrent to go UDP in next release
It's a good thing I didn't get into being a voip provider. Shouldn't I be able to block it all now? Butch Evans wrote: On Mon, 2008-12-08 at 12:03 -0600, Drew Lentz wrote: " Another solution would be for traffic shapers to look inside the UDP payload in order to differentiate VoIP from uTP, but this approach is frustrated by the protocol obfuscation option that remains a live feature in BitTorrent over uTP. uTP will cause traffic shaping to become more expensive." The only problem with this approach is the reality that MOST bittorrent clients are encrypting their traffic these days and MANY of the VoIP products are encrypted as well. SIGH. Glad I'm not an ISP any more... WISPA Wants You! Join today! http://signup.wispa.org/ WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
