Re: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

2006-10-13 Thread Dylan Oliver
Meru Networks does ~2ms handoffs between access points through controllers which run Redhat (or some other rpm-based distro; I forget). The access points report the signal level of clients to the controller, which then decides which AP to send traffic for the client through. It's simple, smart and just works .. as long as we're asking Mikrotik to add protocols for fast handoff, this is the way to go!
Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC
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Re: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

2006-10-13 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006, Dylan Oliver wrote:

Meru Networks does ~2ms handoffs between access points through 
controllers which run Redhat (or some other rpm-based distro; I 
forget). The access points report the signal level of clients to 
the controller, which then decides which AP to send traffic for the 
client through. It's simple, smart and just works .. as long as 
we're asking Mikrotik to add protocols for fast handoff, this is 
the way to go!


The network design that is there does not need this.  The last time 
I posted this information, the discussion turned into this.  You all 
can have it out about what is and is not roaming.  I don't expect to 
participate in that (again).  ;-)



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Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

2006-09-07 Thread Jon Langeler
But it sounds like that would require MT as end-user CPE? Wouldn't work 
for us...


-Jon

Paul Hendry wrote:


That's one of the reasons that the WDS, EoIP combo works so well as the end
user keeps that same address and it cuts out the repeated DHCP stage at AP
hand over.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: 07 September 2006 08:57
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

It's too bad MT doesn't come up with a mobile roaming / routing 
protocol(unless they do and I don't know of it). Where the end user 
retains the same IP address even after it get routed between various 
towers and is wireless medium independent(wifi, wimax, cdma). Does 
anyone here have experience/ideas with that?


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Butch Evans wrote:

 


On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

   

How long is a ping?  Isn't windows ping like 4 sec?  7 times 4 = 28 
seconds. To me, (if my math is correct) 28 sec is frustrating, not 
seamless.
 

Perhaps seamless is not the proper word.  We did some testing today 
and a cop used his laptop at 6 locations throughout the city to surf 
the web and do license checks.  From his perspective, it was 
seamless.  From the perspective of the network...there were seams. Is 
that a more clear explanation?


   



 




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Michwave Tech.

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RE: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

2006-09-07 Thread Charles Wu
Jon,

Trapeze Networks (http://www.trapezenetworks.com) has a solution that works
with 3rd party Aps and allows for seamless roaming / mobility across VLANs /
broadcast domains

Did you forget everything you learned a few weeks ago? wink

-Charles

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WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Thursday, September 07, 2006 2:57 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik


It's too bad MT doesn't come up with a mobile roaming / routing 
protocol(unless they do and I don't know of it). Where the end user 
retains the same IP address even after it get routed between various 
towers and is wireless medium independent(wifi, wimax, cdma). Does 
anyone here have experience/ideas with that?

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Butch Evans wrote:

 On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

 How long is a ping?  Isn't windows ping like 4 sec?  7 times 4 = 28
 seconds. To me, (if my math is correct) 28 sec is frustrating, not 
 seamless.


 Perhaps seamless is not the proper word.  We did some testing today
 and a cop used his laptop at 6 locations throughout the city to surf 
 the web and do license checks.  From his perspective, it was 
 seamless.  From the perspective of the network...there were seams. Is 
 that a more clear explanation?


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Re: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

2006-09-07 Thread John J. Thomas
Butch, to do Layer 3 fast roaming, Cisco uses GRE tunnels into a WLSM module. 
That combined with CCX extensions allow them to do under 50 ms handoffs. 
Supposedly, just the CCX extensions make it possible for under 150 ms handoffs. 
I wonder if it is possible for Mikrotik to implement any of these protocols.

http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/765/ccx/versions_and_features.shtml

John



-Original Message-
From: Butch Evans [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2006 08:54 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Brian Rohrbacher wrote:

How long is a ping?  Isn't windows ping like 4 sec?  7 times 4 = 28
seconds. To me, (if my math is correct) 28 sec is frustrating, not
seamless.

Perhaps seamless is not the proper word.  We did some testing
today and a cop used his laptop at 6 locations throughout the city
to surf the web and do license checks.  From his perspective, it was
seamless.  From the perspective of the network...there were seams.
Is that a more clear explanation?

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

2006-09-06 Thread Paul Hendry
Hi Butch,

It was my understanding that using Mikrotik, EoIP, WDS and RSTP you could
achieve a similar thing with only 1-2 ping drops per handoff between AP's at
least that's what is being claimed by some on the MK forum. We are just
about to test such a setup to facilitate a roaming VoIP solution so 5-7 ping
failures is going to be too noticeable.

Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: 04 September 2006 03:58
To: Equipment List
Cc: Arnis Riekstins; Part-15 Mikrotik List; WISP List; Wispa List
Subject: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

I want to take this opportunity to share with these lists some 
things that we have recently done with a Mikrotik RouterOS based 
network.  This may seem to some like blatant advertising, but it 
is certainly not intended to be that.

Many of you have looked for a solution that will let you do some of 
the things that we now have working (testing is still underway) 
using pure Mikrotik network.  The network is a 13 AP network 
(2.4GHz) that covers an entire city.  There are a few small areas 
that do not currently have coverage, but these can be filled in 
easily as they are identified.  The network was built by a small 
city in eastern OK (I won't go into detail here). The intent of the 
network was to provide for first responders with access to the 
internet as well as city resources.  In addition to this, the city 
wanted to make the network available for internet access to the 
general public (I don't know the details, but my understanding is 
that local ISPs will handle this part).

Obviously, we needed to make certain that the police, fire and EMS 
units had security from the rest of the network.  We are handling 
this in several ways.  Mikrotik has the ability to create what are 
called virtual APs (a virtual AP is a second AP, with the ability to 
use distinct access-lists as well as distinct security profiles from 
the physical radio card).  That is to say, that the virtual AP 
acts like a second radio card but is, in reality, using only one 
physical radio card.  At any rate, this virtual AP is being used for 
the city's network, while the other ISPs will be using their own 
virtual AP to provide their internet service.

The police, fire and ambulance vehicles will be equipped with their 
own Mikrotik Routerboard with some very interesting capabilities. 
Due to the size of the network, and the need to allow for separation 
of services, we decided to route the entire network.  Allowing 
seamless mobility in this environment presents several unique 
challenges.  First, we must allow the CPE device to connect to 
several APs, insure they do not connect to unknown APs AND make sure 
that we know the IP information as the device moves throughout the 
network.

There are many ways we could have used to accomplish all of this 
(the Mikrotik is just that flexible).  We ended up with the 
following solution, which allows the mobile unit to seamlessly move 
through the network, AND will connect to the strongest AP (it checks 
every 15 seconds).  Mikrotik's scripting host was invaluable in this 
solution.  The script checks the signal level of the currently 
active radio (there is a 2.4GHz AND a 900MHz radio in each CPE) and 
(if it is below acceptable levels), it will search for the strongest 
AP (on either radio), connect to that AP, then proceed to 
reconfigure the CPE so that it works on the network.  Finally, the 
IPSEC tunnel (which is not implemented, yet) will be established and 
normal communications for the IP cams, laptop or whatever other 
equipment is located in the vehicle will resume.

Our initial testing showed that the we could drive through town 
pinging the city hall's server and not drop more than 5-7 pings each 
time we switched APs.  Testing will continue throughout the upcoming 
week and it is likely that we will have to tweak our configuration 
some.

NOW, before some of you start pounding me for being part of a muni 
wifi network solution, let me ease your mind.  The city owns this 
network, and they are allowing for access to the internet, but the 
city will not be selling the access (at least that is my 
understanding).  I don't want to argue this point anyway.  It will 
fall on deaf ears if any of you start it anyway.  :-)

I am not at liberty to provide much detail about the network at this 
time, but I wanted to share this much, as this is an exciting option 
that many of you may have searched for.  I just wanted to let you 
know, that Mikrotik CAN BE CONFIGURED AS A MOBILE NETWORK!  ;-)

-- 
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

2006-09-06 Thread Brian Rohrbacher
How long is a ping?  Isn't windows ping like 4 sec?  7 times 4 = 28 
seconds.  To me, (if my math is correct) 28 sec is frustrating, not 
seamless.


Brian

Paul Hendry wrote:


Hi Butch,

It was my understanding that using Mikrotik, EoIP, WDS and RSTP you could
achieve a similar thing with only 1-2 ping drops per handoff between AP's at
least that's what is being claimed by some on the MK forum. We are just
about to test such a setup to facilitate a roaming VoIP solution so 5-7 ping
failures is going to be too noticeable.

Cheers,

P.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: 04 September 2006 03:58
To: Equipment List
Cc: Arnis Riekstins; Part-15 Mikrotik List; WISP List; Wispa List
Subject: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

I want to take this opportunity to share with these lists some 
things that we have recently done with a Mikrotik RouterOS based 
network.  This may seem to some like blatant advertising, but it 
is certainly not intended to be that.


Many of you have looked for a solution that will let you do some of 
the things that we now have working (testing is still underway) 
using pure Mikrotik network.  The network is a 13 AP network 
(2.4GHz) that covers an entire city.  There are a few small areas 
that do not currently have coverage, but these can be filled in 
easily as they are identified.  The network was built by a small 
city in eastern OK (I won't go into detail here). The intent of the 
network was to provide for first responders with access to the 
internet as well as city resources.  In addition to this, the city 
wanted to make the network available for internet access to the 
general public (I don't know the details, but my understanding is 
that local ISPs will handle this part).


Obviously, we needed to make certain that the police, fire and EMS 
units had security from the rest of the network.  We are handling 
this in several ways.  Mikrotik has the ability to create what are 
called virtual APs (a virtual AP is a second AP, with the ability to 
use distinct access-lists as well as distinct security profiles from 
the physical radio card).  That is to say, that the virtual AP 
acts like a second radio card but is, in reality, using only one 
physical radio card.  At any rate, this virtual AP is being used for 
the city's network, while the other ISPs will be using their own 
virtual AP to provide their internet service.


The police, fire and ambulance vehicles will be equipped with their 
own Mikrotik Routerboard with some very interesting capabilities. 
Due to the size of the network, and the need to allow for separation 
of services, we decided to route the entire network.  Allowing 
seamless mobility in this environment presents several unique 
challenges.  First, we must allow the CPE device to connect to 
several APs, insure they do not connect to unknown APs AND make sure 
that we know the IP information as the device moves throughout the 
network.


There are many ways we could have used to accomplish all of this 
(the Mikrotik is just that flexible).  We ended up with the 
following solution, which allows the mobile unit to seamlessly move 
through the network, AND will connect to the strongest AP (it checks 
every 15 seconds).  Mikrotik's scripting host was invaluable in this 
solution.  The script checks the signal level of the currently 
active radio (there is a 2.4GHz AND a 900MHz radio in each CPE) and 
(if it is below acceptable levels), it will search for the strongest 
AP (on either radio), connect to that AP, then proceed to 
reconfigure the CPE so that it works on the network.  Finally, the 
IPSEC tunnel (which is not implemented, yet) will be established and 
normal communications for the IP cams, laptop or whatever other 
equipment is located in the vehicle will resume.


Our initial testing showed that the we could drive through town 
pinging the city hall's server and not drop more than 5-7 pings each 
time we switched APs.  Testing will continue throughout the upcoming 
week and it is likely that we will have to tweak our configuration 
some.


NOW, before some of you start pounding me for being part of a muni 
wifi network solution, let me ease your mind.  The city owns this 
network, and they are allowing for access to the internet, but the 
city will not be selling the access (at least that is my 
understanding).  I don't want to argue this point anyway.  It will 
fall on deaf ears if any of you start it anyway.  :-)


I am not at liberty to provide much detail about the network at this 
time, but I wanted to share this much, as this is an exciting option 
that many of you may have searched for.  I just wanted to let you 
know, that Mikrotik CAN BE CONFIGURED AS A MOBILE NETWORK!  ;-)


 


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RE: [WISPA] Bragging on Mikrotik

2006-09-06 Thread Butch Evans

On Wed, 6 Sep 2006, Paul Hendry wrote:

It was my understanding that using Mikrotik, EoIP, WDS and RSTP you 
could achieve a similar thing with only 1-2 ping drops per handoff 
between AP's at least that's what is being claimed by some on the 
MK forum. We are just about to test such a setup to facilitate a 
roaming VoIP solution so 5-7 ping failures is going to be too 
noticeable.


You can do this with the combinations you mentioned.  The parameters 
I was given to work with made a routed network a better design 
choice.  Some may argue that a huge outdoor bridge with many subs 
running on something like WDS is a good network architecture.  I 
happen to disagree (and experience tells me that I am correct in my 
opinion).  If you called me and asked me to build the VoIP solution 
you mentioned, then I would design the network around that need, 
although I would tell the people I was working for that there are 
going to be certain limitations to the network design.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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