Re: [WISPA] FBI Seeks To Pay Telecoms For Data
The FBI wants to pay the major telecommunications companies to retain their customers' Internet and phone call information for at least two years for the agency's use in counterterrorism investigations and is asking Congress for $5 million a year to defray the cost, according to FBI officials and budget documents. However, if we are forced to retain records, I do believe I would like to be paid to do that. If congress requires us to retain these records, it may be helpful if they also fund the effort? Currently I keep three years of AAA records. If you logged on our system in the past three years, I know when, where and how. I have used that information to satisfy two subpoena's in as many months. So ... let them pay us. It is better than having to do it for nothing but it is not better than not having to do it at all. -m- P.S. I said it because it makes me feel better about myself. Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FBI Seeks To Pay Telecoms For Data
The problem (as I see it) is that it will start with just the AAA, and then it will be all emails, then all IM, then all voip. Where will it end? That is why I think the cost of it should be on the ISP and should be very clearly explained in the TOS/AUP. Government funding for it will lead to Government control. This is one place it just plain is not needed. On 7/29/07, Michael Erskine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The FBI wants to pay the major telecommunications companies to retain their customers' Internet and phone call information for at least two years for the agency's use in counterterrorism investigations and is asking Congress for $5 million a year to defray the cost, according to FBI officials and budget documents. However, if we are forced to retain records, I do believe I would like to be paid to do that. If congress requires us to retain these records, it may be helpful if they also fund the effort? Currently I keep three years of AAA records. If you logged on our system in the past three years, I know when, where and how. I have used that information to satisfy two subpoena's in as many months. So ... let them pay us. It is better than having to do it for nothing but it is not better than not having to do it at all. -m- P.S. I said it because it makes me feel better about myself. Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FBI Seeks To Pay Telecoms For Data
Now, there is a well reasoned argument if I have ever heard one. Make the ISP pay for it and thereby ensure that the ISP protects the privacy of his customers. Good argument Jeromie, very good argument. I yield to a more reasoned argument and I agree with you. -m- Jeromie Reeves wrote: The problem (as I see it) is that it will start with just the AAA, and then it will be all emails, then all IM, then all voip. Where will it end? That is why I think the cost of it should be on the ISP and should be very clearly explained in the TOS/AUP. Government funding for it will lead to Government control. This is one place it just plain is not needed. On 7/29/07, Michael Erskine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The FBI wants to pay the major telecommunications companies to retain their customers' Internet and phone call information for at least two years for the agency's use in counterterrorism investigations and is asking Congress for $5 million a year to defray the cost, according to FBI officials and budget documents. However, if we are forced to retain records, I do believe I would like to be paid to do that. If congress requires us to retain these records, it may be helpful if they also fund the effort? Currently I keep three years of AAA records. If you logged on our system in the past three years, I know when, where and how. I have used that information to satisfy two subpoena's in as many months. So ... let them pay us. It is better than having to do it for nothing but it is not better than not having to do it at all. -m- P.S. I said it because it makes me feel better about myself. Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FBI Seeks To Pay Telecoms For Data
No, Peter. This was not off topic. I just deleted the rest of my response. I figure that I don't really have to explain my opinion to you. -m- Peter R. wrote: Well, this was totally off topic. Nothing better to improve relationships than anti-gov't chatter on an open, archived list. Thanks, M. (I think isp-chat is for this). - Peter Michael Erskine wrote: Jeromie; I am writing this before reading the rest of the thread. Please be patient with me. UHG!!! What a waste of resources. Can anyone point to even ONE terrorist that has even been sniffed out due to data from an ISP? I did a few quick Google searches and no case has popped up. I detest the FBI. We have a special relationship. We try to keep it professional. That said, can you imagine any situation in which the counter-intelligence responsible agency in the US government would ever find it desirable to actually document in public how they got the intelligence that lead to someone being sniffed out? Honestly, they are not likely to tell you how the got what they got until the court case is finished, are they? Even then there are mechanisms where information is not allowed to enter the official court record. IMO terrorist groups have show that they know how to operate and not leave a trail that leads anyplace important till after the fact. Is that your Intelligence Professional opinion? ;) Anyone remember when it was requested that encryptions have a back door? I think this is partly fall out from then. How many ISPs have people who use PGP? As a computer shop I can think of at least a few people who are using PGP/OpenPGP and one who uses a 2048bit cypher. What is WISPA`s official stance on this subject? Anyone remember when the Wall Street Journal reported that NSA could crack PGP? I do. All that said, do I think that this is a good idea? Hell no! I think that the FBI is like any other gubmit agency. Eighty percent of their employees go to work every day at 9 AM and get off at 3 PM. The rest of them carry the load. It is the 80% moron population that proposed this brain dead idea... Someone send them a note 'cause they impress me as much today as they ever have... One last thing worth remembering about the FBI. 800 background files buy a LOT of VOTES, especially when about 400 of them are Congress critters. That ain't politics. That is history. -m- Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] FBI Seeks To Pay Telecoms For Data
UHG!!! What a waste of resources. Can anyone point to even ONE terrorist that has even been sniffed out due to data from an ISP? I did a few quick Google searches and no case has popped up. IMO terrorist groups have show that they know how to operate and not leave a trail that leads anyplace important till after the fact. Anyone remember when it was requested that encryptions have a back door? I think this is partly fall out from then. How many ISPs have people who use PGP? As a computer shop I can think of at least a few people who are using PGP/OpenPGP and one who uses a 2048bit cypher. What is WISPA`s official stance on this subject? On 7/25/07, David Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FBI Seeks To Pay Telecoms For Data $5 Million a Year Sought for Firms To Keep Databases By Ellen Nakashima Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, July 25, 2007; A07 The FBI wants to pay the major telecommunications companies to retain their customers' Internet and phone call information for at least two years for the agency's use in counterterrorism investigations and is asking Congress for $5 million a year to defray the cost, according to FBI officials and budget documents. The FBI would not have direct access to the records. It would need to present a subpoena or an administrative warrant, known as a national security letter, to obtain the information that the companies would keep in a database, officials said. We have never asked for the ability to have direct access to or to 'data mine' telephone company databases, said John Miller, the FBI's assistant director for public affairs. The budget request simply seeks to absorb the cost to the service provider of developing an efficient electronic system for them to retain and deliver the information after it is legally requested. The proposal has raised concerns by civil libertarians who point to telecom companies' alleged involvement in the government's domestic surveillance program and to a recent Justice Department inspector general's report on FBI abuse of national security letters. In one case, a senior FBI official signed the letters without including the required proof that they were linked to FBI counterterrorism or espionage investigations. The report also disclosed that the bureau was issuing exigent letters, telling telephone companies that the bureau needed information immediately and would follow up with subpoenas later. In many cases, agents did not follow up. Moreover, Inspector General Glenn A. Fine found, there was no legal basis to compel the disclosure of information using such letters. The proposal is circumventing the law by paying companies to do something the FBI couldn't do itself legally, said Michael German, American Civil Liberties Union policy counsel on national security. Going around the Fourth Amendment by paying private companies to hoard our phone records is outrageous. Mark J. Zwillinger, a Washington lawyer who represents Internet service providers, said companies have no business reason to keep the data. Moreover, he said he did not think telecom companies are in the business of becoming the investigative arm for the government, keeping data just so the government can get access to it. That's really what the government is asking for: 'Keep data on hundreds of millions of users just in case we need to get data for 15 individuals.' Last year, according to industry sources, U.S. Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales and FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III urged telecom providers to keep subscriber information and network data for two years. Legislation is pending in Congress that would require companies to keep the data. What type and for how long would be up to the attorney general. The administration is also attempting to win immunity for telecom companies from criminal and civil liability for any role in the surveillance program. Telecoms have been providing data legally to the government and then charging for it, said a government official not authorized to speak publicly about the matter and who spoke on condition of anonymity. The cost is about $1.8 million a year since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the official said. The idea now, the official said, is to have the telecom companies create and maintain databases of phone and Internet records so that when they receive a subpoena or national security letter, they can deliver the information expeditiously in electronic form. Zwillinger, an Internet and data protection expert with Sonnenschein Nath amp; Rosenthal and a former federal prosecutor, said that merely retaining the records creates a very attractive trove of data that can be subpoenaed by other entities, such as lawyers in divorce proceedings or other civil litigation. The FBI's proposal to pay companies for the records was reported previously by ABC News. Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know
Re: [WISPA] FBI Seeks To Pay Telecoms For Data
Jeromie, While personally I agree with your view, I don't believe WISPA has an official stance or an official position on this subject as yet. Keep in mind that this news item http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/24/AR2007072402479.html just appeared in print yesterday. If enough WISPA members express their views then the Board should be able to determine a majority view of WISPA members. WISPA may then choose to communicate that majority view to Congress. Individual WISPS are of course free to also express their views directly to Congress. Although the term politician carries a negative connotation these days, it is our elected members of Congress who write the laws that determine what each of us as individuals as well as what the employees of our 15 different national intelligence agencies can and can not legally do. jack Jeromie Reeves wrote: UHG!!! What a waste of resources. Can anyone point to even ONE terrorist that has even been sniffed out due to data from an ISP? I did a few quick Google searches and no case has popped up. IMO terrorist groups have show that they know how to operate and not leave a trail that leads anyplace important till after the fact. Anyone remember when it was requested that encryptions have a back door? I think this is partly fall out from then. How many ISPs have people who use PGP? As a computer shop I can think of at least a few people who are using PGP/OpenPGP and one who uses a 2048bit cypher. What is WISPA`s official stance on this subject? On 7/25/07, David Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FBI Seeks To Pay Telecoms For Data $5 Million a Year Sought for Firms To Keep Databases By Ellen Nakashima Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, July 25, 2007; A07 The FBI wants to pay the major telecommunications companies to retain their customers' Internet and phone call information for at least two years for the agency's use in counterterrorism investigations and is asking Congress for $5 million a year to defray the cost, according to FBI officials and budget documents. The FBI would not have direct access to the records. It would need to present a subpoena or an administrative warrant, known as a national security letter, to obtain the information that the companies would keep in a database, officials said. We have never asked for the ability to have direct access to or to 'data mine' telephone company databases, said John Miller, the FBI's assistant director for public affairs. The budget request simply seeks to absorb the cost to the service provider of developing an efficient electronic system for them to retain and deliver the information after it is legally requested. The proposal has raised concerns by civil libertarians who point to telecom companies' alleged involvement in the government's domestic surveillance program and to a recent Justice Department inspector general's report on FBI abuse of national security letters. In one case, a senior FBI official signed the letters without including the required proof that they were linked to FBI counterterrorism or espionage investigations. The report also disclosed that the bureau was issuing exigent letters, telling telephone companies that the bureau needed information immediately and would follow up with subpoenas later. In many cases, agents did not follow up. Moreover, Inspector General Glenn A. Fine found, there was no legal basis to compel the disclosure of information using such letters. The proposal is circumventing the law by paying companies to do something the FBI couldn't do itself legally, said Michael German, American Civil Liberties Union policy counsel on national security. Going around the Fourth Amendment by paying private companies to hoard our phone records is outrageous. Mark J. Zwillinger, a Washington lawyer who represents Internet service providers, said companies have no business reason to keep the data. Moreover, he said he did not think telecom companies are in the business of becoming the investigative arm for the government, keeping data just so the government can get access to it. That's really what the government is asking for: 'Keep data on hundreds of millions of users just in case we need to get data for 15 individuals.' Last year, according to industry sources, U.S. Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales and FBI Director Robert S. Mueller III urged telecom providers to keep subscriber information and network data for two years. Legislation is pending in Congress that would require companies to keep the data. What type and for how long would be up to the attorney general. The administration is also attempting to win immunity for telecom companies from criminal and civil liability for any role in the surveillance program. Telecoms have been providing data legally to the government and then charging for it, said a government official not authorized to speak publicly about the matter and who spoke
Re: [WISPA] FBI Seeks To Pay Telecoms For Data
On 7/25/07, Jack Unger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeromie, While personally I agree with your view, I don't believe WISPA has an official stance or an official position on this subject as yet. Keep in mind that this news item http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/24/AR2007072402479.html just appeared in print yesterday. This has been talked about many times on the lists. I understand its to early to get a official position, that is exactly why I asked. This is imho a easy thing to decide. If a ISP wants to hold the records then its should be part of their SOP. Not Law. They should only be paid for them if/when the LEA needs them. Any other stance is baffling. The Gov will not pay for CALEA but will for this, that amounts to about the same thing (some over lap of requirements) If enough WISPA members express their views then the Board should be able to determine a majority view of WISPA members. WISPA may then choose to communicate that majority view to Congress. Individual WISPS are of course free to also express their views directly to Congress. Although the term politician carries a negative connotation these days, As it did when we were founded. Much of this nations founding fathers hated the need for such people. Sadly much of the ideas from that time period have been lost and the words twisted. As a citizen I plan to express my dislike for this idea. it is our elected members of Congress who write the laws that determine what each of us as individuals as well as what the employees of our 15 different national intelligence agencies can and can not legally do. Yup I know that. I speak up when I can, not that I feel my voice is very loud. jack Jeromie Reeves wrote: UHG!!! What a waste of resources. Can anyone point to even ONE terrorist that has even been sniffed out due to data from an ISP? I did a few quick Google searches and no case has popped up. IMO terrorist groups have show that they know how to operate and not leave a trail that leads anyplace important till after the fact. Anyone remember when it was requested that encryptions have a back door? I think this is partly fall out from then. How many ISPs have people who use PGP? As a computer shop I can think of at least a few people who are using PGP/OpenPGP and one who uses a 2048bit cypher. What is WISPA`s official stance on this subject? On 7/25/07, David Hughes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FBI Seeks To Pay Telecoms For Data $5 Million a Year Sought for Firms To Keep Databases By Ellen Nakashima Washington Post Staff Writer Wednesday, July 25, 2007; A07 The FBI wants to pay the major telecommunications companies to retain their customers' Internet and phone call information for at least two years for the agency's use in counterterrorism investigations and is asking Congress for $5 million a year to defray the cost, according to FBI officials and budget documents. The FBI would not have direct access to the records. It would need to present a subpoena or an administrative warrant, known as a national security letter, to obtain the information that the companies would keep in a database, officials said. We have never asked for the ability to have direct access to or to 'data mine' telephone company databases, said John Miller, the FBI's assistant director for public affairs. The budget request simply seeks to absorb the cost to the service provider of developing an efficient electronic system for them to retain and deliver the information after it is legally requested. The proposal has raised concerns by civil libertarians who point to telecom companies' alleged involvement in the government's domestic surveillance program and to a recent Justice Department inspector general's report on FBI abuse of national security letters. In one case, a senior FBI official signed the letters without including the required proof that they were linked to FBI counterterrorism or espionage investigations. The report also disclosed that the bureau was issuing exigent letters, telling telephone companies that the bureau needed information immediately and would follow up with subpoenas later. In many cases, agents did not follow up. Moreover, Inspector General Glenn A. Fine found, there was no legal basis to compel the disclosure of information using such letters. The proposal is circumventing the law by paying companies to do something the FBI couldn't do itself legally, said Michael German, American Civil Liberties Union policy counsel on national security. Going around the Fourth Amendment by paying private companies to hoard our phone records is outrageous. Mark J. Zwillinger, a Washington lawyer who represents Internet service providers, said companies have no business reason to keep the data. Moreover, he said he did not think telecom companies are in the business of becoming the investigative arm for the government, keeping data just so the
Re: [WISPA] FBI Seeks To Pay Telecoms For Data
Jeromie; I am writing this before reading the rest of the thread. Please be patient with me. UHG!!! What a waste of resources. Can anyone point to even ONE terrorist that has even been sniffed out due to data from an ISP? I did a few quick Google searches and no case has popped up. I detest the FBI. We have a special relationship. We try to keep it professional. That said, can you imagine any situation in which the counter-intelligence responsible agency in the US government would ever find it desirable to actually document in public how they got the intelligence that lead to someone being sniffed out? Honestly, they are not likely to tell you how the got what they got until the court case is finished, are they? Even then there are mechanisms where information is not allowed to enter the official court record. IMO terrorist groups have show that they know how to operate and not leave a trail that leads anyplace important till after the fact. Is that your Intelligence Professional opinion? ;) Anyone remember when it was requested that encryptions have a back door? I think this is partly fall out from then. How many ISPs have people who use PGP? As a computer shop I can think of at least a few people who are using PGP/OpenPGP and one who uses a 2048bit cypher. What is WISPA`s official stance on this subject? Anyone remember when the Wall Street Journal reported that NSA could crack PGP? I do. All that said, do I think that this is a good idea? Hell no! I think that the FBI is like any other gubmit agency. Eighty percent of their employees go to work every day at 9 AM and get off at 3 PM. The rest of them carry the load. It is the 80% moron population that proposed this brain dead idea... Someone send them a note 'cause they impress me as much today as they ever have... One last thing worth remembering about the FBI. 800 background files buy a LOT of VOTES, especially when about 400 of them are Congress critters. That ain't politics. That is history. -m- Would you like to see your advertisement here? Let the WISPA Board know your feelings about allowing advertisements on the free WISPA lists. The current Board is taking this under consideration at this time. We want to know your thoughts. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
