RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Butch Evans

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote:

Uhmm, Butch...  No, they're not asking for a means.  They're 
insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, 
prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to 
provide them data in a specific form.


And what form is that data going to take?  You don't know.  You are 
being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over 
something you don't even KNOW.  THAT is what I said.


The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering 
information for criminal prosecutions.  Even you can't deny that. 
That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the 
ISP level. WHY?  Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS.  It happens 
behind every ISP who decides that NAT is necessary.  Sorry, but 
that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on 
YOUR network.  They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific 
suspect.



THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less.


REALLY?  Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it 
was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at 
you.  Here are SOME of the things you said:


SNIP
I said that not resisting regulation would kill us.

The process has begun.  We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and 
bleating

softly.

Been nice knowing you folks.
/SNIP

and here
SNIP
the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP
business.
/SNIP

and here
SNIP
You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with 
the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as 
possible.


I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to 
fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 
times.

/SNIP

and here
SNIP
we need to work at launching the largest industry and public 
backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff...

/SNIP

Perhaps I'm the only one reading alarmist into your words...

Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and 
grabbing the data they wanted.  Which, in my view, is fair and 
equitable.  Why should we all pay for and design a network around 
some system few will ever use?


Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the 
fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be designed 
around anything.


CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP.  The FCC and DOJ have 
broadened its meaning all on their own.


No, it wasn't written for that purpose.  But, the world is not the 
same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned.  Times change and so 
do the laws.  My only suggestion is to do 2 things:


1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it.  If 
you decide to break the law, I hope you are caught and punished.


2. Don't ASSUME (you know about that word, right?) that every law is 
a government conspiracy to put you out of business.


OH...it wouldn't hurt if you'd take your meds...

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread wispa
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 02:40:07 -0600 (CST), Butch Evans wrote
 On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote:
 
 Uhmm, Butch...  No, they're not asking for a means.  They're 
 insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, 
 prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to 
 provide them data in a specific form.
 
 And what form is that data going to take?  You don't know.  You are 
 being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over 
 something you don't even KNOW.  THAT is what I said.

Why shouldn't I?  It's an unfunded federal mandate on private enterprise, 
completely without justification, in my view.  How could ANYONE possibly 
defend it?  

 
 The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering 
 information for criminal prosecutions.  

Oh?  What could possibly be denying them this?   Nothing.  There's no reason 
they should make ALL OF US PAY TO BUILD IT ALL FOR THEM WHETHER IT IS NEEDED 
OR NOT.  

Even you can't deny that. 
 That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the 
 ISP level. WHY?  Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS.  It happens 
 behind every ISP who decides that NAT is necessary.  Sorry, but 
 that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on 
 YOUR network.  They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific 
 suspect.

Following your logic, it won't be long when network design, practices, and 
even equipment choices will all be federally regulated to improve this.  
Can't afford it?  Who the bloody hell cares, the GOVERNMENT MUST HAVE IT

sigh

 
  THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less.
 
 REALLY?  Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it 
 was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at 
 you.  Here are SOME of the things you said:
 
 SNIP
 I said that not resisting regulation would kill us.

So, you don't believe this? How could you NOT???  CALEA is the tip of the 
iceburg. 

 
 The process has begun.  We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and 
 bleating
 softly.
 
 Been nice knowing you folks.
 /SNIP
 
 and here
 SNIP
 the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP
 business.
 /SNIP

It certainly has.  There is no means of connecting a person to the internet 
that is now NOT federally controlled.  If you can think of a way, tell us.  
I'm all ears.  Heck, I'm ready to switch now. 

 
 and here
 SNIP
 You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with 
 the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as 
 possible.
 
 I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to 
 fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 
 times.
 /SNIP

So, you think the big guys aren't going to lobby for things that benefit 
them, while we have no voice or consideration because don't have billions to 
lobby with?  


 
 and here
 SNIP
 we need to work at launching the largest industry and public 
 backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff...
 /SNIP
 
 Perhaps I'm the only one reading alarmist into your words...

Yes, you SHOULD be alarmed.  We should have been ALARMED A LONG TIME AGO. 

 
 Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and 
 grabbing the data they wanted.  Which, in my view, is fair and 
 equitable.  Why should we all pay for and design a network around 
 some system few will ever use?
 
 Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the 
 fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be designed 
 around anything.

Well, I haven't got a dollar to bet... but I BET YOU WILL.  

 
 CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP.  The FCC and DOJ have 
 broadened its meaning all on their own.
 
 No, it wasn't written for that purpose.  But, the world is not the 
 same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned.  Times change and so 
 do the laws.  My only suggestion is to do 2 things:
 
 1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it.  If 
 you decide to break the law, I hope you are caught and punished.
 
 2. Don't ASSUME (you know about that word, right?) that every law is 
 a government conspiracy to put you out of business.

I don't assume any such thing.  It's JUST THE NATURE OF GOVERNMENT TO FAVOR 
THE WEALTHY AND INFLUENTIAL over the interests of those of us who are not.  

 
 OH...it wouldn't hurt if you'd take your meds...

Sure Butch.  Looks like you've been on yours WAY too long.  All that valium 
musta numbed you totally. 

I said that when our leaders openly promoted the FCC placing us all under 
federal regulation that this WOULD happen.   CALEA is the first. 

Now, for everyone else.

There will be a LONG list...  there will be homeland security, there will 
be fairness doctrine where we have to gaurantee full connectivity, there 
will be social policy (must provide to those who don't pay the bill) and the 
list will go on and on.  

YOU WILL GO UNDER from these mandates.  It may not be this year or next year, 

RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Rick Smith
Was it being alarmist to shout the redcoats are coming! ?

I understand no one knows the format of the data yet.  But the 
truth is that CALEA is an attempt to put the trigger there,
get us to go broke funding it, and let them pull it any 
time they want...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:40 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote:

Uhmm, Butch...  No, they're not asking for a means.  They're 
insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, 
prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to 
provide them data in a specific form.

And what form is that data going to take?  You don't know.  You are 
being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over 
something you don't even KNOW.  THAT is what I said.

The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering 
information for criminal prosecutions.  Even you can't deny that. 
That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the 
ISP level. WHY?  Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS.  It happens 
behind every ISP who decides that NAT is necessary.  Sorry, but 
that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on 
YOUR network.  They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific 
suspect.

 THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less.

REALLY?  Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it 
was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at 
you.  Here are SOME of the things you said:

SNIP
I said that not resisting regulation would kill us.

The process has begun.  We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and 
bleating
softly.

Been nice knowing you folks.
/SNIP

and here
SNIP
the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP
business.
/SNIP

and here
SNIP
You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with 
the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as 
possible.

I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to 
fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 
times.
/SNIP

and here
SNIP
we need to work at launching the largest industry and public 
backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff...
/SNIP

Perhaps I'm the only one reading alarmist into your words...

Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and 
grabbing the data they wanted.  Which, in my view, is fair and 
equitable.  Why should we all pay for and design a network around 
some system few will ever use?

Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the 
fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be designed 
around anything.

CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP.  The FCC and DOJ have 
broadened its meaning all on their own.

No, it wasn't written for that purpose.  But, the world is not the 
same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned.  Times change and so 
do the laws.  My only suggestion is to do 2 things:

1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it.  If 
you decide to break the law, I hope you are caught and punished.

2. Don't ASSUME (you know about that word, right?) that every law is 
a government conspiracy to put you out of business.

OH...it wouldn't hurt if you'd take your meds...

-- 
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Jeff Broadwick
I misunderstood this initially also, but the Feds do NOT have access to your
network.  They have to provide you with a subpoena and then you have
(generally) 48 hours to provide them with the traffic stream.  I do agree
that it is an unfunded mandate, but I don't see any way around it.

You do get a chance at recovering some money when you get your first
subpoena...that's why I prefer the TTP plans that are light on front-end and
monthly fees.

Jeff
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:41 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, wispa wrote:

This is the FCC declaring that EVERY MEANS OF COMMUNICATION BE 
PRE-TAPPED at the expense of industry.

WHAT?  You are not correct.  This is the LEA asking for a means to collect
data on suspected criminals.  They will have to have a subpoena to gather
the data, and they do not automatically get access to your network data.
You are being alarmist and aren't even informed enough to understand what
CALEA is.

Who's that looking over your shoulder...You should be careful not to fall
asleep, because they are watching your bedroom right now.  They watch ALL
our bedrooms (and kitchens, too).  They can read all our email, too.  In
fact, the post office opens every letter that passes through to send faxes
to the government of all the mail, so they'll have it on record.  I've heard
that the trees are on their side, too!

SHEESH!  You ARE tiring.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
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RE: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Jeff Broadwick
Actually, the standard for connecting the mediation box to the LEA (known as
LAES) has been finalized.  The standard for connecting from the router to
the mediation box (T1-IAS I believe) will be finalized later this month.   

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:28 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Smith wrote:

OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or
patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA.

The most difficult thing about the CALEA compliance issue is that the format
of the data has not, yet, been finalized.  This makes it impossible (IMNSHO)
to determine exactly how compliance is gonna look.  Here is what IS known:

1. You must be able to send the data (in a yet to be determined
format) via a secure connection to the requesting LEA (law enforcement
agency)

2. The LEA will supply you with a subpoena requesting information on a
specific customer.

3. You must be able to capture (and forward) ALL traffic to and from that
customer.  This means even traffic between that customer and another of your
customers, so a sniffer at the border is NOT enough.

4. The target cannot know his data is being logged.

I don't think I missed any of the major points.  I have heard that PCAP
(tcpdump or MT packet sniffer) format is possibly going to be an approved
format, but it CANNOT be a store and forward.  In other words, it MUST be
streamed to the LEA.

I have heard, but I can't confirm (since, I am only an associate
member) that the principle member's list has better insight into what WISPA
is doing on behalf of the membership.  (This was gleaned from various posts
on the mailing list here, and is just an
assumption.)  Either way, membership is a good idea.  ;-)

If I missed anything, perhaps someone here can point it out.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Dave Brenton

Include me in WISPA 445 Filing

I Guess. I Mean we are not yet operational
so there is nothing to monitor as of this
date.

So including us in may be the INCORRECT
move at this time.

it's RTWB, LLC
dba Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband

Dave Brenton

General Manager
Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband
Bringing FAST Internet to the rest of us (sm)
Dover TN
(931) 232-0914 office
(931) 627-1142 cell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Matt Liotta
We are just deploying a new IOS image that includes Cisco's SII 
architecture. Our only cost is time.


-Matt

Rick Smith wrote:

OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time
(or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA.

What are YOU as a WISP doing to comply ?  

How much is it costing you ?  


What technology ?

How would you provide the hook in so the FBI could just
listen in at any time  (is that the way it works ? Or do 
they still need to provide a subpoena...) ?


Others I'm sure will come up..

R


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:44 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445



wispa wrote:

  
You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? 



Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a 
profit center.


Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds and 
ask them some questions, go for it.


But the offer still stands.

Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance 
I will be glad to ask.


George

  


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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Anthony Will
My understanding is that only broadband providers are responsible to 
be compliant.  In order to be a broadband provider you have to offer 
symmetrical 200kb+ service.


Anthony
Broadband Corp.

Jason wrote:
1.  Here's a question: for those who don't have symmetric rates 
to/from the internet (I have 1meg down and , supposedly 128k up, but 
often it's something like 24 up, satellite you know...) streaming just 
will not work.  Can we store and forward?  Or in general, are they 
taking into account the technology being used and its capabilities?


2.  Anyone know anything about these (price etc):
   
http://www.netoptics.com/products/product_family.asp?cid=1Section=productsmenuitem=1filter=3 



they make it sound as though they are most of the solution:
   http://www.netoptics.com/pdf/CALEA_Brief.pdf

Jason

George Rogato wrote:

Well ask a question and we'll see.
Guess if I'm supposed to be the messenger, it's me.

If someone wants me to go and ask ridiculous politically radical 
questions, then forget about it. They can just dial the number and 
ask themselves.


But a non political real question is no problem.

George


JohnnyO wrote:

George - who decides what is reasonable or not ? Is this a personal
decision ?

Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are valid
and should be asked on behalf of WISPA.

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445



wispa wrote:


You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? 



Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into 
a profit center.


Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds 
and ask them some questions, go for it.


But the offer still stands.

Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA 
compliance


I will be glad to ask.

George




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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread RickG

HEAD ON - Apply directly to your forehead!

On 2/13/07, Mac Dearman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one
day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an
important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness
usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is
likely to break down, although this disorder is more common in people with
a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and borderline
types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows:

 The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally
sanctioned response:

1. Delusions
2. Hallucinations
3. Speech that is markedly disorganized
4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic.

 The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers
completely.

 The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With
Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not
due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of
abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.



Sincerely,
Mac Dearman




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of wispa
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote
 I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but
 I don't have time to give a crap about calea.  I'm
 taking advantage of an industry organization to do
 something on my behalf, because I can't have the
 time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking
 after finding out I DIDN'T file...

I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file.  Many won't
even know they have to.

Just think, EVERY block size network.   If you build out for your
neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks,
YOU
are now dead.  You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth

that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP
business.


 Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments
 about packet monitoring being OK for compliance, and
 I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a
 subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is
 probably a necessary evil.


You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with the input

from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible.

I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA

at all, unless the dues  go up on the order 20 to 50 times.

 This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed
 extortion for the little guys.  Paying a TPP for
 snooping on your customers is just crap.  But, what
 are you going to do ?

You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business.




Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread RickG

OK folks - Most of you are in rural areas where you are the only
choice for broadband. You need to advise your subscribers and your
congressional representatives of the hardship this will cause. Perhaps
if they lose votes, they will help.
-RickG

On 2/13/07, Dave Brenton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Include me in WISPA 445 Filing

I Guess. I Mean we are not yet operational
so there is nothing to monitor as of this
date.

So including us in may be the INCORRECT
move at this time.

it's RTWB, LLC
dba Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband

Dave Brenton

General Manager
Rural Tennessee Wireless Broadband
Bringing FAST Internet to the rest of us (sm)
Dover TN
(931) 232-0914 office
(931) 627-1142 cell
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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RE: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Russ Kreigh
Matt - 

Do you have a link to this, or an IOS train number? I couldn't find it on
CCO.

I know Cisco has a solution, just haven't been able to find much about it.

Thanks,

Russ Kreigh
Network Engineer
OnlyInternet.Net Broadband  Wireless
Supernova Technologies
Office: (800) 363-0989
Direct: (260) 827-2486
Fax:(260) 824-9624
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.oibw.net



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:00 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

We are just deploying a new IOS image that includes Cisco's SII 
architecture. Our only cost is time.

-Matt

Rick Smith wrote:
 OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time
 (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA.

 What are YOU as a WISP doing to comply ?  

 How much is it costing you ?  

 What technology ?

 How would you provide the hook in so the FBI could just
 listen in at any time  (is that the way it works ? Or do 
 they still need to provide a subpoena...) ?

 Others I'm sure will come up..

 R


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of George Rogato
 Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:44 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445



 wispa wrote:

   
 You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? 
 

 Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a 
 profit center.

 Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds and 
 ask them some questions, go for it.

 But the offer still stands.

 Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance 
 I will be glad to ask.

 George

   

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Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Matt Liotta

http://www.cisco.com/en/US/products/hw/routers/ps352/prod_bulletin0900aecd802d2ed0.html

-Matt

Russ Kreigh wrote:
Matt - 


Do you have a link to this, or an IOS train number? I couldn't find it on
CCO.

I know Cisco has a solution, just haven't been able to find much about it.

Thanks,

Russ Kreigh
Network Engineer
OnlyInternet.Net Broadband  Wireless
Supernova Technologies
Office: (800) 363-0989
Direct: (260) 827-2486
Fax:(260) 824-9624
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.oibw.net



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 10:00 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

We are just deploying a new IOS image that includes Cisco's SII 
architecture. Our only cost is time.


-Matt

Rick Smith wrote:
  

OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time
(or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA.

What are YOU as a WISP doing to comply ?  

How much is it costing you ?  


What technology ?

How would you provide the hook in so the FBI could just
listen in at any time  (is that the way it works ? Or do 
they still need to provide a subpoena...) ?


Others I'm sure will come up..

R


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:44 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445



wispa wrote:

  

You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? 

  
Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a 
profit center.


Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds and 
ask them some questions, go for it.


But the offer still stands.

Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance 
I will be glad to ask.


George

  



  


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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Mark Nash
Mark,

You keep saying that the government is killing you, and yet we keep getting
posts from you...indicating to me that you're still in business.  What's up
with that?

Mark Nash
Network Engineer
UnwiredOnline.Net
350 Holly Street
Junction City, OR 97448
http://www.uwol.net
541-998-
541-998-5599 fax

- Original Message - 
From: wispa [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445


 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:22:12 -0600, JohnnyO wrote

 I'm not a pessimist at all.  I just know what federal regulation means.
It
 means WE GO AWAY.

 Federal regulation is the DEATH of small business.  I have no doubt the
 Telcos and Cablecos are no doubt celebrating big time.  What they could
not
 do to wipe out competition the federal government does for them.



  Doom and Gloom eh Mark ? Damn man - the big pessimist (sp?)
 
  JohnnyO
 

 
 Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
 Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
 541-969-8200

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Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Dylan Oliver

Looks like these platforms are supported:

1-pre2
1-pre3
7200
7301
as5350
as5350xm
as5400
as5400hpx
as5400xm
as5850-ersc
as5850-rsc

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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread John Scrivner
Question 1. If WISPA develops an industry standard which meets all the 
technical and legal requirements of the law, will law enforcement accept 
our data stream from whatever standard we develop?


Question 2. Will your office allow us to have a system or process 
certified as being CALEA Compliant?


Question 3. Will we have some other standard forced upon us that we do 
not have a part in developing?


Question 4. If a small operator cannot meet the requirements then what 
remedy is available to him in order to not lose his business?


Question 5. Will there be grants available to small operators to meet 
CALEA rules?


Question 6. Can we apply for and receive extensions for meeting the 
CALEA requirements? (In case we do not have everything ready by May)



Please ask those on our behalf and send us the results when you return.
Thanks George!
Scriv


George Rogato wrote:




wispa wrote:

You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? 



Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a 
profit center.


Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds 
and ask them some questions, go for it.


But the offer still stands.

Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA 
compliance I will be glad to ask.


George


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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Butch Evans

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, John Scrivner wrote:

Question 1. If WISPA develops an industry standard which meets all 
the technical and legal requirements of the law, will law 
enforcement accept our data stream from whatever standard we 
develop?


In addition to this, how about adding the idea of bandwidth cost. 
If we are to be required to stream data, we are doubling the 
utilization for that one customer (plus a little overhead) on our 
upstream pipes.  There are WISPs who use DSL or satellite as their 
internet feed, and these technologies would certainly be impaired by 
adding an upstream feed equal to the combined total of upload and 
download for even one busy customer.  How do we address this issue?


Question 3. Will we have some other standard forced upon us that we 
do not have a part in developing?


Perhaps acceptance of an already developed standard such as PCAP 
would be appropriate.  This is a low cost option that is readily 
accessible to even the smallest ISPs.


Question 4. If a small operator cannot meet the requirements then 
what remedy is available to him in order to not lose his business?


This is, perhaps, the question of the day.

Question 5. Will there be grants available to small operators to 
meet CALEA rules?


If a standard such as PCAP with store and forward is acceptable, 
then this is not going to be needed, as a solution based on this 
would be very inexpensive. It would be less than $1k, including any 
switch upgrades that may be needed.


Question 6. Can we apply for and receive extensions for meeting the 
CALEA requirements? (In case we do not have everything ready by 
May)


Wasn't there something like a $5k filing fee for this?  Seems like I 
read that somewhere...I can't remember.


Please add my thoughts to your Q  A process, George.  And (in case 
it hasn't been said), thanks to you and your team for taking the 
time and expense of going.



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http://www.butchevans.com/
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread John Scrivner

Mark said:

So, you think the big guys aren't going to lobby for things that benefit 
them, while we have no voice or consideration because don't have billions to 
lobby with?  
 

We have people going to D.C. to meet with the FBI directly to help get 
this all worked out. How much more representation can you have? I have 
not heard anything but supportive efforts coming from WISPA and the 
government officials we have spoken to about this. There is no 
conspiracy to do anything but stop the bad guys. I don't want people 
using my network to hurt other people so from that standpoint I think 
there can be positive effects of this.  I do not like to see government 
snooping but I do not know how else they can find and stop criminals who 
use the Internet. Any other scenario I can think of seems worse than 
what is being proposed.


I think we can assume from this point forward that Mark wants nothing to 
do with this effort other than to derail the process if possible. I 
assure you we are trying to do our best to balance the needs of the 
government and the needs of our WISP operators who we serve. That is the 
agenda. If anyone has questions they think are worthy of response from 
the FBI please send them on to this list. George will be going there to 
get us a path for developing a standard by which our fellow WISP 
operators can run their businesss without giving too much thought to 
CALEA. The only people who will go broke because of CALEA will be those 
who refuse to follow the law. For those people I am guessing CALEA will 
be only one factor which leads to their demise.

Scriv


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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread John Scrivner
I have not spent one penny on CALEA yet. I know I will but I bet it will 
not be much and I bet this will all look like sky is falling dialog 
when it is all said and done. I remember the day that K-Mart said they 
were going to give away free dialup nationwide. I think that was around 
2000. Now that scared me. Funny thing was I grew more that month than 
any other prior. CALEA does not scare me at all. The only thing the big 
boys are getting from all of this is a good laugh at folks who decide 
this is going to be a make or break for them. Fear is not worthy of your 
time. Stop worrying and run your business. Let WISPA take the heat of 
making CALEA something you can dodge with ease. That is our job. If 
CALEA takes more than $250 bucks out of your pocket and 2 hours away 
from your business  then I will feel I have not done a very good job. I 
could be wrong but you know what? I am not going to worry about it.   :-)

Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:


Was it being alarmist to shout the redcoats are coming! ?

I understand no one knows the format of the data yet.  But the 
truth is that CALEA is an attempt to put the trigger there,
get us to go broke funding it, and let them pull it any 
time they want...


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:40 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote:

 

Uhmm, Butch...  No, they're not asking for a means.  They're 
insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, 
prior to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to 
provide them data in a specific form.
   



And what form is that data going to take?  You don't know.  You are 
being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over 
something you don't even KNOW.  THAT is what I said.


The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering 
information for criminal prosecutions.  Even you can't deny that. 
That means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the 
ISP level. WHY?  Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS.  It happens 
behind every ISP who decides that NAT is necessary.  Sorry, but 
that is one thing that makes it necessary for them to gather data on 
YOUR network.  They HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific 
suspect.


 


THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less.
   



REALLY?  Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it 
was a government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at 
you.  Here are SOME of the things you said:


SNIP
I said that not resisting regulation would kill us.

The process has begun.  We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and 
bleating

softly.

Been nice knowing you folks.
/SNIP

and here
SNIP
the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP
business.
/SNIP

and here
SNIP
You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with 
the input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as 
possible.


I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to 
fund WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 
times.

/SNIP

and here
SNIP
we need to work at launching the largest industry and public 
backlash ever, to end this sort of stuff...

/SNIP

Perhaps I'm the only one reading alarmist into your words...

 

Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and 
grabbing the data they wanted.  Which, in my view, is fair and 
equitable.  Why should we all pay for and design a network around 
some system few will ever use?
   



Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the 
fact is that your network is NOT going to have to be designed 
around anything.


 

CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP.  The FCC and DOJ have 
broadened its meaning all on their own.
   



No, it wasn't written for that purpose.  But, the world is not the 
same as it was when the CALEA laws were penned.  Times change and so 
do the laws.  My only suggestion is to do 2 things:


1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it.  If 
you decide to break the law, I hope you are caught and punished.


2. Don't ASSUME (you know about that word, right?) that every law is 
a government conspiracy to put you out of business.


OH...it wouldn't hurt if you'd take your meds...

 


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Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread John Scrivner
What can you tell us about the mediation box? Is this something we can 
build a few of as WISPA and send to members who need it?

Thanks,
Scriv


Jeff Broadwick wrote:


Actually, the standard for connecting the mediation box to the LEA (known as
LAES) has been finalized.  The standard for connecting from the router to
the mediation box (T1-IAS I believe) will be finalized later this month.   


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:28 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Smith wrote:

 


OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or
patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA.
   



The most difficult thing about the CALEA compliance issue is that the format
of the data has not, yet, been finalized.  This makes it impossible (IMNSHO)
to determine exactly how compliance is gonna look.  Here is what IS known:

1. You must be able to send the data (in a yet to be determined
format) via a secure connection to the requesting LEA (law enforcement
agency)

2. The LEA will supply you with a subpoena requesting information on a
specific customer.

3. You must be able to capture (and forward) ALL traffic to and from that
customer.  This means even traffic between that customer and another of your
customers, so a sniffer at the border is NOT enough.

4. The target cannot know his data is being logged.

I don't think I missed any of the major points.  I have heard that PCAP
(tcpdump or MT packet sniffer) format is possibly going to be an approved
format, but it CANNOT be a store and forward.  In other words, it MUST be
streamed to the LEA.

I have heard, but I can't confirm (since, I am only an associate
member) that the principle member's list has better insight into what WISPA
is doing on behalf of the membership.  (This was gleaned from various posts
on the mailing list here, and is just an
assumption.)  Either way, membership is a good idea.  ;-)

If I missed anything, perhaps someone here can point it out.

--
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Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Sam Tetherow

Me as well, if you didn't imply that from the private email this morning.

Sandhills Wireless, LLC

   Sam Tetherow
   Sandhills Wireless

Tim Wolfe wrote:

Get me in there!.

Include me in WISPA 445 Filing

WaveCrazy Communications


Rick Herrmann wrote:

Include me in WISPA 445 Filing

Zing LLC

Thanks!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 2:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Form 445

If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to 
worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it 
for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They 
are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all 
paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the 
email and say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your 
official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be 
complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO 
CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond 
within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 
13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not 
available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central 
time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org.

John Scrivner
President
WISPA
  




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Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Edward H. Winters
Butch,

Here's a decient paper based on the european version of calea.
http://www.aqsacomna.com/us/articles/LIIPWhitePaperv21.pdf

Ed

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 13:33:55 -0600 (CST)
Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 SO..for a WISPA built mediation box, you could simply put together 
 a Linux server and a $100 switch.  But, in the end, we have to wait 
 to see what format is required before it is possible to truly answer 
 this question.
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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread JohnnyO
John Scrivner said  I think we can assume from this point forward that
Mark wants nothing to do with this effort other than to derail the
process if possible. I assure you we are trying to do our best to
balance the needs of the government and the needs of our WISP operators
who we serve.

John - with all due respect - I do not assume or think or believe
Mark is trying to derail the process. Mark has a valid point and he sees
things from a different perspective sometimes. That is what makes us
more powerful as a group of operators is to have insight and thoughts
and opinions from as many different people as possible. Some people may
not like or agree with what Mark has said - but the same people that
personally attacked him over this issue, have in the past said some
really stupid remarks / comments as well and from them. 

Regards,

JohnnyO



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:46 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445

Mark said:

So, you think the big guys aren't going to lobby for things that
benefit 
them, while we have no voice or consideration because don't have
billions to 
lobby with?  
  

We have people going to D.C. to meet with the FBI directly to help get 
this all worked out. How much more representation can you have? I have 
not heard anything but supportive efforts coming from WISPA and the 
government officials we have spoken to about this. There is no 
conspiracy to do anything but stop the bad guys. I don't want people 
using my network to hurt other people so from that standpoint I think 
there can be positive effects of this.  I do not like to see government 
snooping but I do not know how else they can find and stop criminals who

use the Internet. Any other scenario I can think of seems worse than 
what is being proposed.

That is the 
agenda. If anyone has questions they think are worthy of response from 
the FBI please send them on to this list. George will be going there to 
get us a path for developing a standard by which our fellow WISP 
operators can run their businesss without giving too much thought to 
CALEA. The only people who will go broke because of CALEA will be those 
who refuse to follow the law. For those people I am guessing CALEA will 
be only one factor which leads to their demise.
Scriv


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Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread John Scrivner
Let me ask a stupid question. Why is it not the FEDS job to translate 
data as they see fit? George, please ask that question when you see the 
FBI. This one is very important to me. I am also copying our attorney, 
Kris Twomey, on  this particular issue. This sounds like a bunch of 
crapola if Uncle Sam is expecting us to manipulate / translate the data 
in any way beyond the raw form. This sounds like their job to me.

Scriv


Jeff Broadwick wrote:


Hi John,

The two I'm aware of are SS8 and Verint.  They are very expensive.

The mediation device takes in the IP traffic from the ISP's router and
translates it into the LAES format that the Feds require, and sends it
along.

Jeff




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:02 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

What can you tell us about the mediation box? Is this something we can
build a few of as WISPA and send to members who need it?
Thanks,
Scriv


Jeff Broadwick wrote:

 


Actually, the standard for connecting the mediation box to the LEA (known
   


as
 


LAES) has been finalized.  The standard for connecting from the router to
the mediation box (T1-IAS I believe) will be finalized later this month.   


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:28 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Smith wrote:



   


OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or
patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA.
  

 


The most difficult thing about the CALEA compliance issue is that the
   


format
 


of the data has not, yet, been finalized.  This makes it impossible
   


(IMNSHO)
 


to determine exactly how compliance is gonna look.  Here is what IS known:

1. You must be able to send the data (in a yet to be determined
format) via a secure connection to the requesting LEA (law enforcement
agency)

2. The LEA will supply you with a subpoena requesting information on a
specific customer.

3. You must be able to capture (and forward) ALL traffic to and from that
customer.  This means even traffic between that customer and another of
   


your
 


customers, so a sniffer at the border is NOT enough.

4. The target cannot know his data is being logged.

I don't think I missed any of the major points.  I have heard that PCAP
(tcpdump or MT packet sniffer) format is possibly going to be an approved
format, but it CANNOT be a store and forward.  In other words, it MUST be
streamed to the LEA.

I have heard, but I can't confirm (since, I am only an associate
member) that the principle member's list has better insight into what WISPA
is doing on behalf of the membership.  (This was gleaned from various posts
on the mailing list here, and is just an
assumption.)  Either way, membership is a good idea.  ;-)

If I missed anything, perhaps someone here can point it out.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Dawn DiPietro

Anthony,

I hate to burst your bubble.

This is a quote from the following page;
http://www.fcc.gov/calea/

Common carriers, facilities-based broadband Internet access providers, 
and providers of interconnected Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) 
service – all three types of entities are defined to be 
“telecommunications carriers” for purposes of CALEA section 102, 47 
U.S.C. § 1001 – must comply with the CALEA obligations set forth in 
CALEA section 103, 47 U.S.C. § 1002. See CALEA First Report and Order 
(rel. Sept. 23, 2005).


Following is the link for CALEA First Report and Order;
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-153A1.pdf

Page 5 gives the definition of telecommunications carrier according to 
CALEA.


Regards,
Dawn DiPietro


Anthony Will wrote:

My understanding is that only broadband providers are responsible to 
be compliant. In order to be a broadband provider you have to offer 
symmetrical 200kb+ service.


Anthony
Broadband Corp.

Jason wrote:

1. Here's a question: for those who don't have symmetric rates 
to/from the internet (I have 1meg down and , supposedly 128k up, but 
often it's something like 24 up, satellite you know...) streaming 
just will not work. Can we store and forward? Or in general, are they 
taking into account the technology being used and its capabilities?


2. Anyone know anything about these (price etc):
http://www.netoptics.com/products/product_family.asp?cid=1Section=productsmenuitem=1filter=3 



they make it sound as though they are most of the solution:
http://www.netoptics.com/pdf/CALEA_Brief.pdf

Jason

George Rogato wrote:


Well ask a question and we'll see.
Guess if I'm supposed to be the messenger, it's me.

If someone wants me to go and ask ridiculous politically radical 
questions, then forget about it. They can just dial the number and 
ask themselves.


But a non political real question is no problem.

George


JohnnyO wrote:


George - who decides what is reasonable or not ? Is this a personal
decision ?

Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are 
valid

and should be asked on behalf of WISPA.

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445



wispa wrote:


You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? 




Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into 
a profit center.


Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder up to the feds 
and ask them some questions, go for it.


But the offer still stands.

Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA 
compliance


I will be glad to ask.

George





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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-13 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
The form does not mean that you are compliant.  It's simply to let the FCC 
know where you are at in the process.  Just tell them where you are at in 
getting compliant.  You need to tell them what your plan is.


Laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Martha Huizenga [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445


Ideas about how to fill out the form if you don't know how you would 
comply yet? Does anyone know if this is a required field? Can you just put 
not sure yet? Are there industry standards - can we put that we would 
follow the WISPA standard if it is not yet written?


I appreciate the links from people - Cisco - works if you have Cisco 
installed and NetTap, not sure if this works for me or not yet.


Martha

John Scrivner wrote:

I have not spent one penny on CALEA yet. I know I will but I bet it will 
not be much and I bet this will all look like sky is falling dialog 
when it is all said and done. I remember the day that K-Mart said they 
were going to give away free dialup nationwide. I think that was around 
2000. Now that scared me. Funny thing was I grew more that month than any 
other prior. CALEA does not scare me at all. The only thing the big 
boys are getting from all of this is a good laugh at folks who decide 
this is going to be a make or break for them. Fear is not worthy of your 
time. Stop worrying and run your business. Let WISPA take the heat of 
making CALEA something you can dodge with ease. That is our job. If CALEA 
takes more than $250 bucks out of your pocket and 2 hours away from your 
business  then I will feel I have not done a very good job. I could be 
wrong but you know what? I am not going to worry about it.   :-)

Scriv


Rick Smith wrote:


Was it being alarmist to shout the redcoats are coming! ?

I understand no one knows the format of the data yet.  But the truth is 
that CALEA is an attempt to put the trigger there,
get us to go broke funding it, and let them pull it any time they 
want...


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 3:40 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, wispa wrote:


Uhmm, Butch...  No, they're not asking for a means.  They're 
insisting that we build the tap into our network, at our expense, prior 
to a request ( whether we got any requests or not ), to provide them 
data in a specific form.





And what form is that data going to take?  You don't know.  You are 
being alarmist, in that you are getting bent out of shape over something 
you don't even KNOW.  THAT is what I said.


The FACT is that the government MUST have a means to gathering 
information for criminal prosecutions.  Even you can't deny that. That 
means (when it comes to Internet traffic) MUST happen at the ISP level. 
WHY?  Because MANY ISPs HIDE THEIR CUSTOMERS.  It happens behind every 
ISP who decides that NAT is necessary.  Sorry, but that is one thing 
that makes it necessary for them to gather data on YOUR network.  They 
HAVE to be able to gather data on a specific suspect.




THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less.




REALLY?  Maybe when I read these words from YOUR email address, it was a 
government conspiracy that sent them to point the finger at you.  Here 
are SOME of the things you said:


SNIP
I said that not resisting regulation would kill us.

The process has begun.  We marched in to be fleeced, smiling and 
bleating

softly.

Been nice knowing you folks.
/SNIP

and here
SNIP
the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP
business.
/SNIP

and here
SNIP
You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with the 
input from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible.


I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund 
WISPA at all, unless the dues go up on the order 20 to 50 times.

/SNIP

and here
SNIP
we need to work at launching the largest industry and public backlash 
ever, to end this sort of stuff...

/SNIP

Perhaps I'm the only one reading alarmist into your words...


Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and 
grabbing the data they wanted.  Which, in my view, is fair and 
equitable.  Why should we all pay for and design a network around some 
system few will ever use?





Read the documentation again...I'm not here to educate you, but the fact 
is that your network is NOT going to have to be designed around 
anything.



CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP.  The FCC and DOJ have 
broadened its meaning all on their own.





No, it wasn't written for that purpose.  But, the world is not the same 
as it was when the CALEA laws were penned.  Times change and so do the 
laws.  My only suggestion is to do 2 things:


1. Like it or not, the law is the law, and you MUST follow it.  If you 
decide

Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Mark Nash
Include me in WISPA 445 Filing.

UnwiredOnline.Net, LLC

Mark Nash
Network Engineer
UnwiredOnline.Net
350 Holly Street
Junction City, OR 97448
http://www.uwol.net
541-998-
541-998-5599 fax

- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 12:44 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Form 445


 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry
 about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all
 paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are
 allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid
 WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and
 say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your official, legal
 company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done
 as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage
 of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm
 Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA
 member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before
 noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at
http://signup.wispa.org.
 John Scrivner
 President
 WISPA
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread rabbtux rabbtux

 Please include me in the WISPA 445 filing  Rabbit Meadows Technology, LLC

On 2/12/07, John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry
about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all
paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are
allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid
WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and
say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your official, legal
company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done
as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage
of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm
Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA
member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before
noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org.
John Scrivner
President
WISPA
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread John Scrivner
Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA members 
and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He will file for 
all of WISPA operators who wish and include company names of those who 
want to be included. No names will be included who have already filed 
themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason. Obviously a 
Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this. 
Are you wanting to be included?

Scriv


cw wrote:

This is wonderful but you would need our FRN. Are you saying we don't 
have to have this postmarked today?


John Scrivner wrote:

If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to 
worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it 
for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They 
are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all 
paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the 
email and say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your 
official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be 
complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO 
CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond 
within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 
13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not 
available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central 
time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org.

John Scrivner
President
WISPA



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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Matt

Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA members
and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He will file for
all of WISPA operators who wish and include company names of those who
want to be included. No names will be included who have already filed
themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason.



Obviously a
Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this.


Sure would be funny if they did though. ;)

Matt
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread cw
No, thank you. I've already wasted most of the day completing the forms but 
our post office run for the day is already gone. So, I was wondering if our 
forms could be post marked Tuesday instead of Monday. - cw


John Scrivner wrote:
Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA members 
and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He will file for 
all of WISPA operators who wish and include company names of those who 
want to be included. No names will be included who have already filed 
themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason. Obviously a 
Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this. 
Are you wanting to be included?

Scriv

cw wrote:

This is wonderful but you would need our FRN. Are you saying we don't 
have to have this postmarked today?


John Scrivner wrote:

If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to 
worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it 
for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They 
are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all 
paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the 
email and say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your 
official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be 
complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO 
CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond 
within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 
13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not 
available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central 
time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org.

John Scrivner
President
WISPA

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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Bill Gaylord

John please include us, COLI Inc.

Bill Gaylord
COLI Inc

John Scrivner wrote:
If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry 
about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all 
paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are 
allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid 
WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and 
say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your official, legal 
company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being 
done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take 
advantage of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later 
than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a 
paid WISPA member then this is not available to you unless you get us 
$250 before noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at 
http://signup.wispa.org.

John Scrivner
President
WISPA

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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Don Renner
Include NetsurfUSA, Inc. in the WISPA 445 filing for CALEA.

Don Renner
NetsurfUSA, Inc.
812-936-4514
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 2:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Form 445

If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry 
about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all 
paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are 
allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid 
WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and 
say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your official, legal 
company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done 
as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage 
of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm 
Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA 
member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before 
noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org.
John Scrivner
President
WISPA
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Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread chris cooper
Ok I paid up


Please include us in CALEA filing

Intelliwave, LLC

Thanks
Chris Cooper
Intelliwave, LLC
740.592.0322

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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Rick Smith
Just paid up... include RTPS Networks, Inc. d/b/a Near You Networks

THANKS!  AWESOME IDEA!

R


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 4:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445

Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA members 
and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He will file for 
all of WISPA operators who wish and include company names of those who 
want to be included. No names will be included who have already filed 
themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason. Obviously a 
Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this. 
Are you wanting to be included?
Scriv


cw wrote:

 This is wonderful but you would need our FRN. Are you saying we don't 
 have to have this postmarked today?

 John Scrivner wrote:

 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to 
 worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it 
 for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They 
 are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all 
 paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the 
 email and say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your 
 official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be 
 complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO 
 CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond 
 within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 
 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not 
 available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central 
 time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org.
 John Scrivner
 President
 WISPA

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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Cliff Leboeuf
Boy...if that's not a valuable service justifying my dues.

- Cliff


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Scrivner
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 2:44 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Form 445

If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry 
about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all 
paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are 
allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid 
WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and 
say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your official, legal 
company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done

as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage 
of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm 
Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA 
member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before 
noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at
http://signup.wispa.org.
John Scrivner
President
WISPA
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Eric Merkel

On 2/12/07, John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry
about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all
paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are
allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid
WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and
say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your official, legal
company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done
as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage
of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm
Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA
member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before
noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org.
John Scrivner
President
WISPA
--


Just a silly question, but why is filling out this form such a big
deal for everyone? It's only 10 questions basically asking you if you
will be compliant or not by 5/14/07. Also it has to be signed by an
officer of the company that is being reported for. How can WISPA file
on behalf of these companies?

-Eric
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Tim Kerns

John.

Include CV-Access, Inc.

Thanks,

Tim Kerns

- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445


Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA members 
and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He will file for 
all of WISPA operators who wish and include company names of those who 
want to be included. No names will be included who have already filed 
themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason. Obviously a 
Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this. 
Are you wanting to be included?

Scriv


cw wrote:

This is wonderful but you would need our FRN. Are you saying we don't 
have to have this postmarked today?


John Scrivner wrote:

If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to 
worry about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it 
for all paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They 
are allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all 
paid WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the 
email and say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your 
official, legal company name. That's it. Your filing will be 
complete.This is being done as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO 
CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage of this offer you MUST respond 
within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm Central time on Tuesday, Feb 
13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA member then this is not 
available to you unless you get us $250 before noon tomorrow Central 
time and fill out the form at http://signup.wispa.org.

John Scrivner
President
WISPA



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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Jeff Broadwick
A Canadian company that I was talking to thought it was just a matter of
time until they had the same sort of regs. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 4:35 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445

 Kris Twomey says he can handle our filing on behalf of all WISPA 
 members and that he can do it with just a company name for now. He 
 will file for all of WISPA operators who wish and include company 
 names of those who want to be included. No names will be included who 
 have already filed themselves or do not wish to file for whatever reason.

 Obviously a
 Canadian company would not need to file a US mandated issue like this.

Sure would be funny if they did though. ;)

Matt
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread John Scrivner
Kris Twomey has told me he can do this and that it will meet the 
requirements for filing. It is not a terribly difficult thing to do but 
it is just easy to use an attorney for anything like this. I do not 
bother trying to meet every legal filing requirement. I consider that my 
attorney's job and use an attorney for all such issues. Kris is doing 
this for WISPA because he is paid by us to do such things and because he 
as already working for us on CALEA issues. It was simple for him to be 
part of the process.

Scriv


Eric Merkel wrote:


On 2/12/07, John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry
about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all
paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are
allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid
WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and
say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your official, legal
company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being done
as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take advantage
of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm
Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA
member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before
noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at 
http://signup.wispa.org.

John Scrivner
President
WISPA
--



Just a silly question, but why is filling out this form such a big
deal for everyone? It's only 10 questions basically asking you if you
will be compliant or not by 5/14/07. Also it has to be signed by an
officer of the company that is being reported for. How can WISPA file
on behalf of these companies?

-Eric


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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread JohnnyO
Erik - are you a paid member of WISPA ?

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Merkel
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 5:47 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445

On 2/12/07, John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If you are a paid WISPA Principal Member then you do not have to worry
 about filing your CALEA Form 445. Kris Twomey is handling it for all
 paid WISPA Principal Members who want it done for them. They are
 allowing later filing now. Kris will be filing on behalf of all paid
 WISPA Principal Members. All you have to do is reply to the email and
 say, Include me in WISPA 445 Filing and include your official, legal
 company name. That's it. Your filing will be complete.This is being
done
 as a benefit of WISPA membership at NO CHARGE TO YOU. To take
advantage
 of this offer you MUST respond within 24 hours, by no later than 3 pm
 Central time on Tuesday, Feb 13th. If you are not already a paid WISPA
 member then this is not available to you unless you get us $250 before
 noon tomorrow Central time and fill out the form at
http://signup.wispa.org.
 John Scrivner
 President
 WISPA
 --

Just a silly question, but why is filling out this form such a big
deal for everyone? It's only 10 questions basically asking you if you
will be compliant or not by 5/14/07. Also it has to be signed by an
officer of the company that is being reported for. How can WISPA file
on behalf of these companies?

-Eric
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Eric Merkel

On 2/12/07, John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Kris Twomey has told me he can do this and that it will meet the
requirements for filing. It is not a terribly difficult thing to do but
it is just easy to use an attorney for anything like this. I do not
bother trying to meet every legal filing requirement. I consider that my
attorney's job and use an attorney for all such issues. Kris is doing
this for WISPA because he is paid by us to do such things and because he
as already working for us on CALEA issues. It was simple for him to be
part of the process.
Scriv



I don't like filling out paper work either, but it kinda concerns me
that people aren't taking CALEA compliance seriously if they can't
take 10 minutes to fill in their company name, get an FRN number, and
answer whether or not they will be compliant when May rolls around.
Ultimately, THEY are responsible and have to have an officer of the
company sign that document.

In any case, I am not trying to be disagreeable just a little puzzled.

-Eric
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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Rick Smith
I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but
I don't have time to give a crap about calea.  I'm 
taking advantage of an industry organization to do
something on my behalf, because I can't have the 
time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking
after finding out I DIDN'T file...

Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments
about packet monitoring being OK for compliance, and
I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a 
subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is
probably a necessary evil.

This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed
extortion for the little guys.  Paying a TPP for
snooping on your customers is just crap.  But, what
are you going to do ?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Merkel
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:36 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445

On 2/12/07, John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Kris Twomey has told me he can do this and that it will meet the
 requirements for filing. It is not a terribly difficult thing to do but
 it is just easy to use an attorney for anything like this. I do not
 bother trying to meet every legal filing requirement. I consider that my
 attorney's job and use an attorney for all such issues. Kris is doing
 this for WISPA because he is paid by us to do such things and because he
 as already working for us on CALEA issues. It was simple for him to be
 part of the process.
 Scriv


I don't like filling out paper work either, but it kinda concerns me
that people aren't taking CALEA compliance seriously if they can't
take 10 minutes to fill in their company name, get an FRN number, and
answer whether or not they will be compliant when May rolls around.
Ultimately, THEY are responsible and have to have an officer of the
company sign that document.

In any case, I am not trying to be disagreeable just a little puzzled.

-Eric
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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread wispa
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote
 I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but
 I don't have time to give a crap about calea.  I'm 
 taking advantage of an industry organization to do
 something on my behalf, because I can't have the 
 time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking
 after finding out I DIDN'T file...

I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file.  Many won't 
even know they have to.  

Just think, EVERY block size network.   If you build out for your 
neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks, YOU 
are now dead.  You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth 
that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP 
business.  

 
 Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments
 about packet monitoring being OK for compliance, and
 I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a 
 subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is
 probably a necessary evil.
 

You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with the input 
from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible.  

I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA 
at all, unless the dues  go up on the order 20 to 50 times. 

 This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed
 extortion for the little guys.  Paying a TPP for
 snooping on your customers is just crap.  But, what
 are you going to do ?

You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business.  




Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread George Rogato
I predict the little guy will end up giving all his subs publics and 
passing the ball to their upstreams, and probably-most likely  for a 
price. I find it hard to believe this is not going to be an option.


We'll find out more Thursday when we meet at the Hoover Building in DC 
to talk to the FBI and Homeland Security about CALEA.


If anyone has any questions they want answered, nows the time to put 
them in print.


George



wispa wrote:

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote


I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but
I don't have time to give a crap about calea.  I'm 
taking advantage of an industry organization to do
something on my behalf, because I can't have the 
time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking

after finding out I DIDN'T file...



I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file.  Many won't 
even know they have to.  

Just think, EVERY block size network.   If you build out for your 
neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks, YOU 
are now dead.  You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth 
that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP 
business.  




Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments
about packet monitoring being OK for compliance, and
I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a 
subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is

probably a necessary evil.




You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with the input 
from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible.  

I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA 
at all, unless the dues  go up on the order 20 to 50 times. 




This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed
extortion for the little guys.  Paying a TPP for
snooping on your customers is just crap.  But, what
are you going to do ?



You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business.  





Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200



--
George Rogato

Welcome to WISPA

www.wispa.org

http://signup.wispa.org/
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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread JohnnyO
Doom and Gloom eh Mark ? Damn man - the big pessimist (sp?)

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of wispa
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote
 I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but
 I don't have time to give a crap about calea.  I'm 
 taking advantage of an industry organization to do
 something on my behalf, because I can't have the 
 time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking
 after finding out I DIDN'T file...

I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file.  Many
won't 
even know they have to.  

Just think, EVERY block size network.   If you build out for your 
neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big
bucks, YOU 
are now dead.  You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on
earth 
that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP 
business.  

 
 Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments
 about packet monitoring being OK for compliance, and
 I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a 
 subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is
 probably a necessary evil.
 

You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with the
input 
from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible.  

I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund
WISPA 
at all, unless the dues  go up on the order 20 to 50 times. 

 This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed
 extortion for the little guys.  Paying a TPP for
 snooping on your customers is just crap.  But, what
 are you going to do ?

You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business.  




Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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-- 
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2/11/2007 6:50 PM


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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread wispa
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:04:37 -0800, George Rogato wrote
 I predict the little guy will end up giving all his subs publics and 
 passing the ball to their upstreams, and probably-most likely  for a 
 price. I find it hard to believe this is not going to be an option.

You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen?  Come 
on.  What are you smoking?  This is thier chance to wipe out all those pesky 
little guys and own it all.  And the FCC and feds will cheer at the order 
forced from chaos. 

 
 We'll find out more Thursday when we meet at the Hoover Building in 
 DC to talk to the FBI and Homeland Security about CALEA.
 
 If anyone has any questions they want answered, nows the time to put 
 them in print.

Yeah.  Could you please quote the constitutional authority for this, please 
cite relevant sections and paragraphs.

Oh, and What do you intend to do to prevent small neighborhood networks, 
informal internet access via voluntary and cooperative systems, free 
networks, and open and free networks from continuing to be non-compliant and 
even unaware of the requirements?

I would like the answer to those on tape and in writing.  And then we need to 
work at launching the largest industry and public backlash ever, to end 
this sort of stuff and ensure it NEVER comes back. 



Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread wispa
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:22:12 -0600, JohnnyO wrote

I'm not a pessimist at all.  I just know what federal regulation means.  It 
means WE GO AWAY. 

Federal regulation is the DEATH of small business.  I have no doubt the 
Telcos and Cablecos are no doubt celebrating big time.  What they could not 
do to wipe out competition the federal government does for them.  



 Doom and Gloom eh Mark ? Damn man - the big pessimist (sp?)
 
 JohnnyO
 


Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Mac Dearman
Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one
day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an
important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness
usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is
likely to break down, although this disorder is more common in people with
a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and borderline
types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows: 

 The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally
sanctioned response: 

1. Delusions
2. Hallucinations
3. Speech that is markedly disorganized
4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic.

 The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers
completely. 

 The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With
Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not
due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of
abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition. 



Sincerely, 
Mac Dearman




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of wispa
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote
 I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but
 I don't have time to give a crap about calea.  I'm 
 taking advantage of an industry organization to do
 something on my behalf, because I can't have the 
 time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking
 after finding out I DIDN'T file...

I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file.  Many won't 
even know they have to.  

Just think, EVERY block size network.   If you build out for your 
neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks,
YOU 
are now dead.  You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on earth

that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP 
business.  

 
 Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments
 about packet monitoring being OK for compliance, and
 I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a 
 subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is
 probably a necessary evil.
 

You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with the input

from the telecoms to bankrupt as many small ISP's as possible.  

I predict that in 2 years there will not be enough WISP's left to fund WISPA

at all, unless the dues  go up on the order 20 to 50 times. 

 This, in my opinion, is just big brother licensed
 extortion for the little guys.  Paying a TPP for
 snooping on your customers is just crap.  But, what
 are you going to do ?

You're going to pay and then you're going to go out of business.  




Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread George Rogato



wispa wrote:

You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? 


Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a 
profit center.


Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds and 
ask them some questions, go for it.


But the offer still stands.

Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance 
I will be glad to ask.


George

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CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Rick Smith
OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time
(or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA.

What are YOU as a WISP doing to comply ?  

How much is it costing you ?  

What technology ?

How would you provide the hook in so the FBI could just
listen in at any time  (is that the way it works ? Or do 
they still need to provide a subpoena...) ?

Others I'm sure will come up..

R


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:44 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445



wispa wrote:

 You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? 

Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a 
profit center.

Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds and 
ask them some questions, go for it.

But the offer still stands.

Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance 
I will be glad to ask.

George

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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
George, I'm not sure if you got the note yet.  But you guys are going to the 
Hoover building for that meeting!  Into the belly of the beast!  grin


What *I'd* like to see happen is two fold.

A:  What the heck do we really have to do, in plain English please, in order 
to be compliant.
B:  You guys come up with a plan to put together a team to work with law 
enforcement on a WISP CALEA standard.


In a perfect world you'd come back with answers and the basis for the 
standards team to start working toward.  You'd know what kind of people 
should be on the standards team and help put that team together.  Then, by 
May we'll have a standard in place and we can all just say that we're WISPA 
CALEA compliant.


Good luck!
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445





wispa wrote:


You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen?


Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a 
profit center.


Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds and 
ask them some questions, go for it.


But the offer still stands.

Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance I 
will be glad to ask.


George

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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

Rick,

I've been talking with both the FCC and FBI.  It's up in the air yet, but it 
looks like calea compliance won't be that big of a deal.  We'll know much 
more after the Thursday meetings our guys are having.


Here's what I understand so far  I've gotten this from the head of the 
FBI's CALEA division (why more people don't pick up the phone is beyond me).


We have to be able to copy a particular customer's data stream to a local 
machine.  They do NOT want a stream cause they may not be able to receive it 
fast enough or data may get lost on the way to them.  The local machine 
needs to have a way to transfer the data to them.  That could be either via 
burning a disk, transfer of the entire machine (likely if they provide the 
machine :-), vpn back to law enforcement or some other mechanism.


At this point there are a couple of issues that I'm not clear on yet.  What 
form does the vpn have to be in.  And it may not have to be a particular 
one.  don't know yet.  And what kind of security on the local cache machine 
will have to be in place?  Will it have to be physically or electronically 
or both, isolated from the rest of the company?


There are, of course, other difficult situations.  I brought up these 
examples and more.  It was agreed that there may not always be good 
resolutions etc.


What happens if someone uses my FREE hotspot in town?  It's a Linksys, I 
have NO way to get any useful data from it.  If I change it out to a more 
powerful machine I incur substantial costs AND I tip off the perp that we've 
changed something for some reason.


How about that hotel we sell service to?  They won't have the ability to get 
useful data from their Linksys routers anymore than I could.  And I have no 
way of determining who's doing what inside their network.  Again, no good 
answers.


I don't think we'll see perfection any time soon.  But that doesn't mean we 
can't or shouldn't try to do our best.


marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:44 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445



Ya know Mac, not funny, at the same time, funny.

I think Mark's got a point, albeit dooms-day-ish.

There's no fiscal or physical way small WISPs can comply
with CALEA, and I want to know HOW SPECIFICALLY to do it,
if you think it CAN be done...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:37 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one
day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an
important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness
usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is
likely to break down, although this disorder is more common in people 
with
a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and 
borderline

types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows:

The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally
sanctioned response:

1. Delusions
2. Hallucinations
3. Speech that is markedly disorganized
4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic.

The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers
completely.

The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With
Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not
due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of
abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.



Sincerely,
Mac Dearman




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of wispa
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote

I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but
I don't have time to give a crap about calea.  I'm
taking advantage of an industry organization to do
something on my behalf, because I can't have the
time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking
after finding out I DIDN'T file...


I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file.  Many won't
even know they have to.

Just think, EVERY block size network.   If you build out for your
neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks,
YOU
are now dead.  You just don't know it yet, because you have no idea on 
earth


that the federal govenrment has just taken wholesale control of the ISP
business.



Now, I run Mikrotik everywhere, and I've seen comments
about packet monitoring being OK for compliance, and
I'll STILL not do anything until I'm provided with a
subpoena, but I figure having the paperwork THERE is
probably a necessary evil.



You can bet that any industry standard derived will derived with the 
input


from the telecoms

RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Rick Smith
thanks Marlon...

Got one more for you - what about the hotels that hook up to me for
virtual hotspot authentication / billing services through Mikrotik's
hotspot mechanism... am I or the Hotel responsible for capture ?  heh.

I'm sure there's many more questions...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:17 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445

Rick,

I've been talking with both the FCC and FBI.  It's up in the air yet, but it

looks like calea compliance won't be that big of a deal.  We'll know much 
more after the Thursday meetings our guys are having.

Here's what I understand so far  I've gotten this from the head of the 
FBI's CALEA division (why more people don't pick up the phone is beyond me).

We have to be able to copy a particular customer's data stream to a local 
machine.  They do NOT want a stream cause they may not be able to receive it

fast enough or data may get lost on the way to them.  The local machine 
needs to have a way to transfer the data to them.  That could be either via 
burning a disk, transfer of the entire machine (likely if they provide the 
machine :-), vpn back to law enforcement or some other mechanism.

At this point there are a couple of issues that I'm not clear on yet.  What 
form does the vpn have to be in.  And it may not have to be a particular 
one.  don't know yet.  And what kind of security on the local cache machine 
will have to be in place?  Will it have to be physically or electronically 
or both, isolated from the rest of the company?

There are, of course, other difficult situations.  I brought up these 
examples and more.  It was agreed that there may not always be good 
resolutions etc.

What happens if someone uses my FREE hotspot in town?  It's a Linksys, I 
have NO way to get any useful data from it.  If I change it out to a more 
powerful machine I incur substantial costs AND I tip off the perp that we've

changed something for some reason.

How about that hotel we sell service to?  They won't have the ability to get

useful data from their Linksys routers anymore than I could.  And I have no 
way of determining who's doing what inside their network.  Again, no good 
answers.

I don't think we'll see perfection any time soon.  But that doesn't mean we 
can't or shouldn't try to do our best.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:44 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445


 Ya know Mac, not funny, at the same time, funny.

 I think Mark's got a point, albeit dooms-day-ish.

 There's no fiscal or physical way small WISPs can comply
 with CALEA, and I want to know HOW SPECIFICALLY to do it,
 if you think it CAN be done...

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Mac Dearman
 Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:37 AM
 To: 'WISPA General List'
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

 Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one
 day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an
 important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness
 usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is
 likely to break down, although this disorder is more common in people 
 with
 a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and 
 borderline
 types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows:

 The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally
 sanctioned response:

 1. Delusions
 2. Hallucinations
 3. Speech that is markedly disorganized
 4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic.

 The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers
 completely.

 The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With
 Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not
 due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of
 abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.



 Sincerely,
 Mac Dearman




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of wispa
 Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote
 I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but
 I don't have time to give a crap about calea.  I'm
 taking advantage of an industry organization to do
 something on my behalf, because I can't have the
 time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking
 after finding out I DIDN'T file...

 I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file.  Many won't
 even know they have to.

 Just think, EVERY block size network.   If you build out for your
 neighborhood and have 10 neighbors... YOU have to fork out the big bucks,
 YOU

Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread wispa
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 00:49:52 -0500, Rick Smith wrote
 OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time
 (or patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA.
 
 
 How would you provide the hook in so the FBI could just
 listen in at any time  (is that the way it works ? Or do 
 they still need to provide a subpoena...) ?
 
 Others I'm sure will come up..

I've spent.. well... quite a bit of time watching for the key data to show 
up that answers those questions.  

I can't answer them.  I can't find the information, either. 

The best I can find, is that you must provide either (can't tell which ) 
either all the data that goes to and from a specific user... OR a specific 
IP, provided in a specific format (don't know what that format is, can't find 
out) to the requesting LEA within 2 hours if it is an amber alert or 2 days 
if any other type of request. 

There is a data format or protocol which is supposed to be used, but I cant' 
find out what it is.  

I did manage to read that there will unlikely be any any open source 
implementations, since the protocol is not free or open and that the license 
is very costly. 

All I can find is that we're going to have to comply with industry 
standards.  I can't figure out who is creating those standards, or if those 
standards will be open for implementation, or we'll have to pay a license to 
those who created them.  




Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread JohnnyO
George - who decides what is reasonable or not ? Is this a personal
decision ?

Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are valid
and should be asked on behalf of WISPA.

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445



wispa wrote:

 You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? 

Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a 
profit center.

Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds and 
ask them some questions, go for it.

But the offer still stands.

Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance

I will be glad to ask.

George

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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread wispa
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:55:19 -0600, Mac Dearman wrote
 It's going to be to easy Rick. If everyone will hold their horses 
 and just trot for a short time they will get everything lined out. 
 The ability to stream live data is already in place here and it's 
 cheap. I don't know why it wouldn't be acceptable as it would be the 
 live data stream they would ask for. What they do with it is their 
 business, but that's just not a hard deal either.

You're way too gullible if you think that. 

 
  I wish folks wouldn't be alarmists at this point because it does 
 not help anyone or anything - it only tends to get folks feathers 
 ruffled over nothing.

No point in stirring up the cows in the slaughter yard, true.  

 
 Capturing the data that the FBI (or whoever) would want is a simple simple
 thing. It shouldn't cost us over $100.00 to implement and like I aid 
 earlier - most of us already have a device(s) that can do this.
 
 Here is my thought on the matter: If some sleaze ball was calling my 
 10 year old daughter and was on someone's wireless network - I would 
 want that bustard caught and put in jail - - with or without a subpoena!!

I disagree.  If some sleazeball were making obscene phone calls to my kids, I 
would want EVERY constituional requirement followed.  I depend on that to 
defend myself, as well. 

 
 Wouldn't you Mark? Or would you be hollering foul then as well??

Mac, this is apples and oranges. 

This is the FCC declaring that EVERY MEANS OF COMMUNICATION BE PRE-TAPPED at 
the expense of industry. 




Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread wispa
On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 21:44:20 -0800, George Rogato wrote
 wispa wrote:
 
  You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen?
 
 Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into 
 a profit center.
 
 Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds 
 and ask them some questions, go for it.
 
 But the offer still stands.
 
 Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA 
 compliance I will be glad to ask.

What is unreasonable about asking them about all the informal and semi-formal 
and little community, neighborhood, and other hobby networks out there?  

I suspect there's a lot of people who haven't even thought this far, and are 
so buried in 'big business' perspective they're going to be at a loss to be 
able to answer this.

I consider the answer to this VITAL.  Why?  Because that's the key to 
understanding what the ultimate goal is.  If they say they're not the issue 
then we REALLY have a big bullseye on our backs, and it's the big guys who 
painted it.  If they intend to shut down or force compliance on every 
network, no matter how formed or how small, or under what auspices it was 
formed, then it's time for some activism to end this - the flow of 
information is not holy ground the government owns. 

This isn't political George.  I don't know just where the line is for you, 
where you suddenly say man, this is nuts, we shouldn't have to do this! and 
you say so... But I am dumbfounded that without ANY idea of what impact this 
may have on you and your business and customers and employees PERSONALLY, you 
still are not even considering objecting. 

With the exception of Rick, I have yet to see anyone who seems to even think 
they should ever object.  Instead, we're talking about going, hat in hand, 
saying tell us what to do. 

People, WHAT ARE WE, men or sheep?  Trust me, EVERY industry talks 
back..objects to excessive regulation.  Many of them spend millions of 
dollars to try to influence Congress to back off.  

And we're afraid to even disagree, even if the cost is unemployment. 

( shakes head )

Sorry guys.  Until I was 25 years old, I followed everything my parents said 
without question.  Then I guess I finally had my teenage rebellion years.  

Maybe they're not over with... but for some reason, I find myself saying GET 
THE BLOODY HECK OUTA MY BUSINESS to the government, and thinking I have not 
only the right, but the OBLIGATION to do this, merely because I am a citizen, 
and we ALL have that obligation to defend ourselves and our own best 
interests from excessive meddling. 



 
 George
 
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Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Joe Laura
My only question is if we do not know for sure exactly what we need to be
compliant by 5/14/07 is it smart to sign on the dotted line saying we will
be compliant? Am I missing something?

Superior Wireless
New Orleans,La.
www.superior1.com
 
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread George Rogato

Well ask a question and we'll see.
Guess if I'm supposed to be the messenger, it's me.

If someone wants me to go and ask ridiculous politically radical 
questions, then forget about it. They can just dial the number and ask 
themselves.


But a non political real question is no problem.

George


JohnnyO wrote:

George - who decides what is reasonable or not ? Is this a personal
decision ?

Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are valid
and should be asked on behalf of WISPA.

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445



wispa wrote:


You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? 



Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a 
profit center.


Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds and 
ask them some questions, go for it.


But the offer still stands.

Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance

I will be glad to ask.

George



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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread wispa
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 01:03:27 -0600, Joe Laura wrote
 My only question is if we do not know for sure exactly what we need 
 to be compliant by 5/14/07 is it smart to sign on the dotted line 
 saying we will be compliant? Am I missing something?

The part that gets me... You have to state that you're on the way to 
compliance or you have to state what you're going to do. 

And from the comments on this list... I have yet to see anyone who has said 
they actually know either for sure.

And I still want to know what they intend to do with all those little hobby, 
community, free, and other informal networks who FOR SURE are not filing, nor 
even know about it. 



 
 Superior Wireless
 New Orleans,La.
 www.superior1.com
 
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Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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Re: CALEA - HOW? RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Butch Evans

On Tue, 13 Feb 2007, Rick Smith wrote:

OK, Don't point me to some confusing URL I don't have time (or 
patience) to read about how to comply with CALEA.


The most difficult thing about the CALEA compliance issue is that 
the format of the data has not, yet, been finalized.  This makes it 
impossible (IMNSHO) to determine exactly how compliance is gonna 
look.  Here is what IS known:


1. You must be able to send the data (in a yet to be determined 
format) via a secure connection to the requesting LEA (law 
enforcement agency)


2. The LEA will supply you with a subpoena requesting information on 
a specific customer.


3. You must be able to capture (and forward) ALL traffic to and from 
that customer.  This means even traffic between that customer and 
another of your customers, so a sniffer at the border is NOT enough.


4. The target cannot know his data is being logged.

I don't think I missed any of the major points.  I have heard that 
PCAP (tcpdump or MT packet sniffer) format is possibly going to be 
an approved format, but it CANNOT be a store and forward.  In 
other words, it MUST be streamed to the LEA.


I have heard, but I can't confirm (since, I am only an associate 
member) that the principle member's list has better insight into 
what WISPA is doing on behalf of the membership.  (This was gleaned 
from various posts on the mailing list here, and is just an 
assumption.)  Either way, membership is a good idea.  ;-)


If I missed anything, perhaps someone here can point it out.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
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Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread George Rogato
I don't know the answer, I would assume us the isp would be the 
responsible party.


I suppose you will have to charge more as well.
But thats a legit question that will be asked. And a good one too.





Rick Smith wrote:

thanks Marlon...

Got one more for you - what about the hotels that hook up to me for
virtual hotspot authentication / billing services through Mikrotik's
hotspot mechanism... am I or the Hotel responsible for capture ?  heh.

I'm sure there's many more questions...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 1:17 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445

Rick,

I've been talking with both the FCC and FBI.  It's up in the air yet, but it

looks like calea compliance won't be that big of a deal.  We'll know much 
more after the Thursday meetings our guys are having.


Here's what I understand so far  I've gotten this from the head of the 
FBI's CALEA division (why more people don't pick up the phone is beyond me).


We have to be able to copy a particular customer's data stream to a local 
machine.  They do NOT want a stream cause they may not be able to receive it


fast enough or data may get lost on the way to them.  The local machine 
needs to have a way to transfer the data to them.  That could be either via 
burning a disk, transfer of the entire machine (likely if they provide the 
machine :-), vpn back to law enforcement or some other mechanism.


At this point there are a couple of issues that I'm not clear on yet.  What 
form does the vpn have to be in.  And it may not have to be a particular 
one.  don't know yet.  And what kind of security on the local cache machine 
will have to be in place?  Will it have to be physically or electronically 
or both, isolated from the rest of the company?


There are, of course, other difficult situations.  I brought up these 
examples and more.  It was agreed that there may not always be good 
resolutions etc.


What happens if someone uses my FREE hotspot in town?  It's a Linksys, I 
have NO way to get any useful data from it.  If I change it out to a more 
powerful machine I incur substantial costs AND I tip off the perp that we've


changed something for some reason.

How about that hotel we sell service to?  They won't have the ability to get

useful data from their Linksys routers anymore than I could.  And I have no 
way of determining who's doing what inside their network.  Again, no good 
answers.


I don't think we'll see perfection any time soon.  But that doesn't mean we 
can't or shouldn't try to do our best.


marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Rick Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:44 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445




Ya know Mac, not funny, at the same time, funny.

I think Mark's got a point, albeit dooms-day-ish.

There's no fiscal or physical way small WISPs can comply
with CALEA, and I want to know HOW SPECIFICALLY to do it,
if you think it CAN be done...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mac Dearman
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 12:37 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

Patients who experience an acute psychotic episode lasting longer than one
day but less than one month and that may or may not immediately follow an
important life stress or a pregnancy (with postpartum onset). This illness
usually comes as a surprise as there is no forewarning that the person is
likely to break down, although this disorder is more common in people 
with
a pre-existing personality disorder (particularly histrionic and 
borderline

types). The main diagnostic criteria is as follows:

The patient has at least one of the following that is not a culturally
sanctioned response:

1. Delusions
2. Hallucinations
3. Speech that is markedly disorganized
4. Behavior that is markedly disorganized or catatonic.

The patient has symptoms from 1 to 30 days and eventually recovers
completely.

The disturbance is not better accounted for by a Mood Disorder With
Psychotic Features, Schizoaffective Disorder, or Schizophrenia and is not
due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of
abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.



Sincerely,
Mac Dearman




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of wispa
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Form 445

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 23:46:13 -0500, Rick Smith wrote


I think I'm going to be the first to say this, but
I don't have time to give a crap about calea.  I'm
taking advantage of an industry organization to do
something on my behalf, because I can't have the
time to give a crap later when the FCC comes knocking
after finding out I DIDN'T file...


I predict that somewhere around 80% of small ISP's won't file

Re: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Jason
1.  Here's a question: for those who don't have symmetric rates to/from 
the internet (I have 1meg down and , supposedly 128k up, but often it's 
something like 24 up, satellite you know...) streaming just will not 
work.  Can we store and forward?  Or in general, are they taking into 
account the technology being used and its capabilities?


2.  Anyone know anything about these (price etc):
   
http://www.netoptics.com/products/product_family.asp?cid=1Section=productsmenuitem=1filter=3


they make it sound as though they are most of the solution:
   http://www.netoptics.com/pdf/CALEA_Brief.pdf

Jason

George Rogato wrote:

Well ask a question and we'll see.
Guess if I'm supposed to be the messenger, it's me.

If someone wants me to go and ask ridiculous politically radical 
questions, then forget about it. They can just dial the number and ask 
themselves.


But a non political real question is no problem.

George


JohnnyO wrote:

George - who decides what is reasonable or not ? Is this a personal
decision ?

Sorry to stick a thorn in here, but, I think Mark's questions are valid
and should be asked on behalf of WISPA.

JohnnyO

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 11:44 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Form 445



wispa wrote:


You actually think that the big guys will actually let that happen? 



Yeah, I can see it now, our upstreams turning CALEA compliance into a 
profit center.


Anyways if you want to bring your own tape recorder  up to the feds 
and ask them some questions, go for it.


But the offer still stands.

Any reasonable question regarding the implementation of CALEA compliance

I will be glad to ask.

George




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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread Butch Evans

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, wispa wrote:

This is the FCC declaring that EVERY MEANS OF COMMUNICATION BE 
PRE-TAPPED at the expense of industry.


WHAT?  You are not correct.  This is the LEA asking for a means to 
collect data on suspected criminals.  They will have to have a 
subpoena to gather the data, and they do not automatically get 
access to your network data.  You are being alarmist and aren't even 
informed enough to understand what CALEA is.


Who's that looking over your shoulder...You should be careful not to 
fall asleep, because they are watching your bedroom right now.  They 
watch ALL our bedrooms (and kitchens, too).  They can read all our 
email, too.  In fact, the post office opens every letter that passes 
through to send faxes to the government of all the mail, so they'll 
have it on record.  I've heard that the trees are on their side, 
too!


SHEESH!  You ARE tiring.

--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html
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RE: [WISPA] Form 445

2007-02-12 Thread wispa
On Tue, 13 Feb 2007 01:40:41 -0600 (CST), Butch Evans wrote
 On Mon, 12 Feb 2007, wispa wrote:
 
 This is the FCC declaring that EVERY MEANS OF COMMUNICATION BE 
 PRE-TAPPED at the expense of industry.
 
 WHAT?  You are not correct.  This is the LEA asking for a means to 
 collect data on suspected criminals.  They will have to have a 
 subpoena to gather the data, and they do not automatically get 
 access to your network data.  You are being alarmist and aren't even 
 informed enough to understand what CALEA is.

Uhmm, Butch...  No, they're not asking for a means.  They're insisting that 
we build the tap into our network, at our expense, prior to a request ( 
whether we got any requests or not ), to provide them data in a specific 
form. 

THAT is precisely what I said, nothing more, and nothing less.  

 
 Who's that looking over your shoulder...You should be careful not to 
 fall asleep, because they are watching your bedroom right now.  They 
 watch ALL our bedrooms (and kitchens, too).  They can read all our 
 email, too.  In fact, the post office opens every letter that passes 
 through to send faxes to the government of all the mail, so they'll 
 have it on record.  I've heard that the trees are on their side, 
 too!
 
 SHEESH!  You ARE tiring.

Well, if you didn't make all that up, then you might have had a point.  I 
said nothing of the sort. 

Up to this point, the LEA's had to pony up the means of tapping and grabbing 
the data they wanted.  Which, in my view, is fair and equitable.  Why should 
we all pay for and design a network around some system few will ever use?  

CALEA was NOT written for ISP's or VOIP.   The FCC and DOJ have broadened its 
meaning all on their own.  




Mark Koskenmaki   Neofast, Inc
Broadband for the Walla Walla Valley and Blue Mountains
541-969-8200

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