Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-18 Thread Cliff Leboeuf
1. I don't agree that 'vehicle' insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to
the vehicle or its use. 'Vehicle' insurance covers things when used as a
'vehicle'... Driving accidents. Even if you have 'vehicle' insurance on a
bucket truck, you would need 'liability AND worker's compensation'
insurances to cover any personal and property from the use of the 'bucket.'
I believe that you could use a bucket truck without 'vehicle' insurance if
you had 'liability' insurance on PRIVATE property and be covered adequately.
But, you would NOT be covered driving the truck from place to place.
Similarly, if you only had 'vehicle' insurance, you may be covered (if you
do omit the fact that you are driving a bucket truck) for accidents while
driving as a vehicle, but not covered for the use of the bucket.

2. If you have employees use their personal vehicle for business use, THEIR
protection comes from THEIR policy coverage and is meant for their
protection. If YOU, as their employer, want to be covered, you need to add
'non-owned vehicle' coverage to your liability insurance. That is what
covers YOU in the event the employee causes a loss while using their
personal vehicle for your business.

Just my 2 cents...from a non-insurance agent. :)


On 11/17/06 5:31 PM, Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or
 its use
 
 Insightful, I did not know that. And under that situation, Its logical that
 business liability coverage would cover anything above what the
 auto-insurance did not.
 
 But the real question here is not whether the Auto-Insurance will cover the
 bucket.
 Its wether the Primary Business Liabilty insurance will cover the insodent
 as primary coverage, IF there is no auto-coverage for the Bucket, for
 example if it was not disclosed and made invalid.  Meaning, why buy
 duplicate coverage, if Business Liability Coverage would cover it, and it
 would be unwise to not have business liabilty, as every property owner
 requires it to be there before doing work.
 
 as most personal lines policies do not cover any type of business use,
 
 Please clarify. There are a lot of employees that are required to use their
 own vehichles for work and employer does not provide one. For example, Pizza
 delivery. Are you saying they are not covered? I find that hard to believe.
 I'd understand that if a business used a personal policy for its vehicles
 and then let employees drive it, that it likely may not be covered. But I
 thought for sure that if I had my own vehichle at work, I could drive it
 myself for work. There are many people who share their vehicle for part work
 and part personel. ITs not viable to have two policies on the same vehichle,
 and not always viable to have two vehichles.
 
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
 - Original Message -
 From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 9:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.
 
 
 Tom DeReggi wrote:
 Excellent point Travis.  It would be covered under business liabilty
 insurance and/or workman's comp.
 Auto insurance is meant to cover the driver or other guy that got hurt in
 a driving accident.
 Never once heard of a bucket contributing to a driving accident with
 another vehichle.
 
 Unless of course you were driving down the road and forgot to lower the
 boom before driving away :-)
 
 Your business liabilty insurance is also more appropriate for this, as
 you classify what type of business you are in. Using it as a lineman,
 home construction, or Computer Networking can be considered and has
 required provisions for defining that in the agreement.
 
 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
 
 
 - Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:03 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for
 installs.
 
 Tom, Wrong answer about the business liability insurance :-) . In most
 states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or
 its use. For instance, in PA, if You close the van door on Your hand(even
 if the vehicle is parked and not moving) and break it, Your auto insurance
 has to pay the medical bills. If the operator of the bucket truck sends it
 through the roof of the house they are working on, then the property
 damage coverage of Your auto policy(primary) kicks in and pays for the
 roof. There is a chance that Your business insurance(GL or general
 liability) policy would cover You on a secondary basis if the coverage on
 the auto policy was not enough and You were sued for the
 difference?(Varies by state). The legal term for this is called the
 proximate cause of the accident or problem, and since the bucket was
 attached to the van, the auto policy 

Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-18 Thread Tim Wolfe

Cliff Leboeuf wrote:

1. I don't agree that 'vehicle' insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to
the vehicle or its use. 'Vehicle' insurance covers things when used as a
'vehicle'... Driving accidents. Even if you have 'vehicle' insurance on a
bucket truck, you would need 'liability AND worker's compensation'
insurances to cover any personal and property from the use of the 'bucket.'
I believe that you could use a bucket truck without 'vehicle' insurance if
you had 'liability' insurance on PRIVATE property and be covered adequately.
//
  
OK, Auto insurance is designed to pay for anything that happens or 
arises out of the use of any vehicle listed on the policy. It does not 
matter whether or not the vehicle is used on private property OR a 
public roadway, OR if it is moving or stationary, period. Their are 
really 2 types of auto insurance, personal and commercial. Personal 
insurance is designed for the average Joe that used their car or small 
truck(pickup) to drive back and forth to work(Notice I didn't say For 
work, very important!), take the kids to soccer practice and church on 
Sundays. It will even cover You if You help Your loving Mother in Law 
move into Your house and You bring her belongings over in the back of 
Your pickup, LOL!. This is what a personal use really is(At NO TIME are 
You making $$)


   . Business Auto or commercial insurance is designed for any type of 
vehicle that is used in the course of activities that generate income 
for Yourself or a Corporation, LLC etc. It does not matter if You own 
the Corp. or You work for it, or You are just doing a favor for the 
person who does own it.One of the main things that makes business auto 
insurance so different is that it has to cover not only driving 
accidents, but accidents that arise from what the different types of 
things vehicles do in the course of their travels, as the average person 
does not own a vehicle with a bucket truck on it, nor do they own a 
tanker truck filled with Jet fuel that they drive to Church on Sundays. 
Personal lines coverage just deals with one thing, accidents that come 
from small autos hitting something else(For the most part?).
 Business insurance covers a very broad spectrum of things that 
specialized vehicles do, and there could be a very different type of 
exposure the insurance CO would have to pay out on a claim based on what 
the vehicle in question was designed to do. In almost every state, the 
business auto insurance covers ANYTHING that arises from the use of the 
vehicle, PERIOD. Whether it is a hole made in the roof from a bucket, or 
a stream and local pond destroyed because 50 gallons of diesel fuel 
leaked from the fuel tanks, or the Thermo King unit took a crap and all 
10,000 pds. of  frozen fish got stinky really fast?, it is covered under 
the business auto policy and Your GL(General Liability) DOES NOT.
General liability insurance is designed to pay for damages done 
through the course of Your normal business activities. This would 
include things like causing a roof to leak during an install, or one of 
Your employees flicking a cigarette into a pile of leaves at the 
customers house and the entire place burned down. Depending on how Your 
GL policy is written, or what state You live in, it may or may not cover 
SOME of the auto related claims as a secondary coverage, but secondary 
coverage ONLY. Most of the ones that do cover losses like this will have 
a paragraph in the policy itself stating that if there is no primary 
coverage from the business auto policy?, the GL coverage can not be used 
as primary. There are simply no shortcuts when it comes to buying insurance?
Most states also make You carry a minimum medical coverage amount. 
This amount is primary even IF You have workman's Comp. So if You have 
$10,000 of medical coverage on Your business auto policy, and one of 
Your employees falls out of the bucket while it is in the air and breaks 
both of their legs?, Your business auto policy will pay the first 
$10,000 of the medical bills AND THEN workmans comp. will kick in a pay 
the rest.
With all of the different types of insurance You mentioned Cliff in 
Your post above, each one has a purpose and will only pay out in a very 
specific instance. There is no way that You could purchase just a GL 
(General liability) policy and stretch it or do a little dance and hope 
that You are covered at the time of a loss.





2. If you have employees use their personal vehicle for business use, THEIR
protection comes from THEIR policy coverage and is meant for their
protection. If YOU, as their employer, want to be covered, you need to add
'non-owned vehicle' coverage to your liability insurance. That is what
covers YOU in the event the employee causes a loss while using their
personal vehicle for your business.

  
Cliff, here again, personal lines policies will only pay for something 
that happens when You are driving Your car or truck for personal 

Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-17 Thread Tom DeReggi
states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or 
its use


Insightful, I did not know that. And under that situation, Its logical that 
business liability coverage would cover anything above what the 
auto-insurance did not.


But the real question here is not whether the Auto-Insurance will cover the 
bucket.
Its wether the Primary Business Liabilty insurance will cover the insodent 
as primary coverage, IF there is no auto-coverage for the Bucket, for 
example if it was not disclosed and made invalid.  Meaning, why buy 
duplicate coverage, if Business Liability Coverage would cover it, and it 
would be unwise to not have business liabilty, as every property owner 
requires it to be there before doing work.



as most personal lines policies do not cover any type of business use,


Please clarify. There are a lot of employees that are required to use their 
own vehichles for work and employer does not provide one. For example, Pizza 
delivery. Are you saying they are not covered? I find that hard to believe. 
I'd understand that if a business used a personal policy for its vehicles 
and then let employees drive it, that it likely may not be covered. But I 
thought for sure that if I had my own vehichle at work, I could drive it 
myself for work. There are many people who share their vehicle for part work 
and part personel. ITs not viable to have two policies on the same vehichle, 
and not always viable to have two vehichles.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.



Tom DeReggi wrote:
Excellent point Travis.  It would be covered under business liabilty 
insurance and/or workman's comp.
Auto insurance is meant to cover the driver or other guy that got hurt in 
a driving accident.
Never once heard of a bucket contributing to a driving accident with 
another vehichle.


Unless of course you were driving down the road and forgot to lower the 
boom before driving away :-)


Your business liabilty insurance is also more appropriate for this, as 
you classify what type of business you are in. Using it as a lineman, 
home construction, or Computer Networking can be considered and has 
required provisions for defining that in the agreement.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for 
installs.


Tom, Wrong answer about the business liability insurance :-) . In most 
states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or 
its use. For instance, in PA, if You close the van door on Your hand(even 
if the vehicle is parked and not moving) and break it, Your auto insurance 
has to pay the medical bills. If the operator of the bucket truck sends it 
through the roof of the house they are working on, then the property 
damage coverage of Your auto policy(primary) kicks in and pays for the 
roof. There is a chance that Your business insurance(GL or general 
liability) policy would cover You on a secondary basis if the coverage on 
the auto policy was not enough and You were sued for the 
difference?(Varies by state). The legal term for this is called the 
proximate cause of the accident or problem, and since the bucket was 
attached to the van, the auto policy will cover it. This is why Your 
insurance CO is pitching a fit about the bucket. Here is some more 
insurance trivia that all of You should be aware of, as I for one hate 
surprises. Did You know that if at the end of Your employees shift, You 
ask that person to drop off a check, contract, pick up a part at radio 
shack etc. and they are involved in an accident, You are going to be sued 
right along with Your employee and their (employee's)private auto insurer 
will more than likely deny the claim, as most personal lines policies do 
not cover any type of business use, period. The idea here is that the 
accident in question would have never occured if You had not asked the 
employee to run an errand for You. We also have some of us business owners 
that do not own any private vehicles. If everything You own is insured 
commercially?, Do Not EVER rent a vehicle unless Your Business auto policy 
has drive other car coverage, because if it doesn't?, You will be paying 
the bill for the accident, as most commercial auto policies only cover the 
vehicles listed on it, and if it 'aint there?, It 'aint covered. :-(

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Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-17 Thread Brian Rohrbacher



Tom DeReggi wrote:

states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle 
or its use



Insightful, I did not know that. And under that situation, Its logical 
that business liability coverage would cover anything above what the 
auto-insurance did not.


But the real question here is not whether the Auto-Insurance will 
cover the bucket.
Its wether the Primary Business Liabilty insurance will cover the 
insodent as primary coverage, IF there is no auto-coverage for the 
Bucket, for example if it was not disclosed and made invalid.  
Meaning, why buy duplicate coverage, if Business Liability Coverage 
would cover it, and it would be unwise to not have business liabilty, 
as every property owner requires it to be there before doing work.



as most personal lines policies do not cover any type of business use,



Please clarify. 


My dad has to have commercial coverage on his car because he is a 
mailman (uses personal car for work).  I asked my insurance agent if my 
employee (on a non commercial policy) would be covered if I had him 
drive his own car to deliver a computer to someone.  He said no.  If you 
use your car for work (not just driving to work) even one time you are 
suppose to have a commercial policy.  That is the way Michigan is.


There are a lot of employees that are required to use their own 
vehichles for work and employer does not provide one. For example, 
Pizza delivery. Are you saying they are not covered? I find that hard 
to believe. I'd understand that if a business used a personal policy 
for its vehicles and then let employees drive it, that it likely may 
not be covered. But I thought for sure that if I had my own vehichle 
at work, I could drive it myself for work. There are many people who 
share their vehicle for part work and part personel. ITs not viable to 
have two policies on the same vehichle, and not always viable to have 
two vehichles.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 9:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for 
installs.




Tom DeReggi wrote:

Excellent point Travis.  It would be covered under business liabilty 
insurance and/or workman's comp.
Auto insurance is meant to cover the driver or other guy that got 
hurt in a driving accident.
Never once heard of a bucket contributing to a driving accident with 
another vehichle.


Unless of course you were driving down the road and forgot to lower 
the boom before driving away :-)


Your business liabilty insurance is also more appropriate for this, 
as you classify what type of business you are in. Using it as a 
lineman, home construction, or Computer Networking can be 
considered and has required provisions for defining that in the 
agreement.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for 
installs.


Tom, Wrong answer about the business liability insurance :-) . In 
most states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the 
vehicle or its use. For instance, in PA, if You close the van door on 
Your hand(even if the vehicle is parked and not moving) and break it, 
Your auto insurance has to pay the medical bills. If the operator of 
the bucket truck sends it through the roof of the house they are 
working on, then the property damage coverage of Your auto 
policy(primary) kicks in and pays for the roof. There is a chance 
that Your business insurance(GL or general liability) policy would 
cover You on a secondary basis if the coverage on the auto policy was 
not enough and You were sued for the difference?(Varies by state). 
The legal term for this is called the proximate cause of the 
accident or problem, and since the bucket was attached to the van, 
the auto policy will cover it. This is why Your insurance CO is 
pitching a fit about the bucket. Here is some more insurance trivia 
that all of You should be aware of, as I for one hate surprises. Did 
You know that if at the end of Your employees shift, You ask that 
person to drop off a check, contract, pick up a part at radio shack 
etc. and they are involved in an accident, You are going to be sued 
right along with Your employee and their (employee's)private auto 
insurer will more than likely deny the claim, as most personal lines 
policies do not cover any type of business use, period. The idea here 
is that the accident in question would have never occured if You had 
not asked the employee to run an errand for You. We also have some of 
us business owners that do not own any private vehicles. If 
everything You own is insured commercially?, Do Not EVER rent a 
vehicle unless 

Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-17 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

Man, that is scary and damn foolish advice you guys!

Nothing worse than finding out that you are improperly insured.

Can you imagine what would happen when you tried to file a claim and they 
denied it because you insured a van not a bucket truck!


wow
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.



Yup yup yup. Ours is a Ford F-350 4x4. :)

Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:

If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket!
Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck!

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for 
installs.




We dropped it and parked the truck for now.

When it's time to use it again I'll probably just have the insurance set 
up so that I'm the only one that can use the truck.


Our insurance is a wreck these days.  The costs have shot up so high 
it's almost impossible to afford any.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - From: Dylan Bouterse 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:22 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.


I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the
insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our
insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because
of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies
getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work?

Dylan
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-17 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

fyi

I'm not even going to try to read these last two posts.  You guys need to 
use paragraphs!  This is wa too hard on the ol' eyes!


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 2:54 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.


When you put it that way... It does bring a new perpective to think 
about. Well said.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for 
installs.



Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it would 
be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting information. 
There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The first one is like 
Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have to, and the thought of 
using it doesn't really cross Your mind for all the reasons You mentioned 
below. If it were possible, I am sure that insurance CO's would love to 
find a way to discern the quality customers from the irresponsible ones, 
and charge lower rates based on this fact, and the fact that the bucket 
is only used once a month?. That sad part is there is no real way to do 
this, as insurance is based on the law of large #'s, and in order for it 
to work, everyone must be lumped together in one big pool(for lack of 
other words?). Your customer profile is fairly common though. I respect 
the fact that when the truck is in the field, only responsible operators 
like Yourself will be operating the bucket, being extra cautious as to 
whats going on around You and whats happening when the boom is moving 
etc. This is the way it should be at all times. Now lets move on to the 
second type of customer(The most uncommon, believe it or not?). This 
person usually does everything they can to cut corners, not only with 
work ethics and install qualities but also with their level of 
responsibilties in the day to day operation of their business. This 
customer will hire the cheapest employee that will work for them, skimp 
on safety and vehicle maintainence,  owe $$ to most of the vendors he or 
she does business with and they will usually try and call their employees 
Sub-contractors, trying to avoid paying taxes and workmans compensation 
to make more $$(This is really an entirely different topic, but I am just 
using this as an example?). This risk taking carries over to things such 
as the safe use of a bucket truck. If You remember, I mentioned that the 
people that work for this person are really only there because they can 
not find a job anywhere else, and our business owner in question hires 
them because it is cheap labor. The day comes when the bucket truck is 
needed for an install, and our employee gets behind the wheel to do the 
job(Keep in mind that our employee was up half the night boozing with 
his/her friends, and just found it their spouse is messing with the 
neighbor). When at the job site, this employee will not have very good 
safety principles, and will do something really dumb like tear the 
service head for the electric off the wall of the house and tear down the 
cable CO's fiber line, along with the local Telco's phone systems. The 
reason I am mentioning all this is because for the most part, 10% of all 
insurance customers file 90% of the claims for reasons mentioned above. 
This same customer will also use their insurance policy as a maintainence 
contract, and try to get the insurance CO to pay for things that You or I 
would simply say, OK, this happened, but I will just fix it myself, as 
it was my fault in the first place.  I dropped a 4ft piece of pipe off 
of the roof last year and it hit the only car parked on the entire 
street. It was an older car that already had 4000 dents and peeling 
paint, but the damage to the fender was $430. I just paid it, because it 
was stupidity in the first place, and I didn't want my rates to go up?. 
Now, the other side of this: We have an incidence where an individual 
needed new tires for inspection, so using their really smart brain, they 
drove it home from the mechanic that failed it, and slashed all the tires 
themselves. The insurance CO only paid the prorated amount, as the tires 
were worn out in the first place, so this enterprising individual got 
pissed, and went and got a set of tires(That didn't match) from the local 
junk yard that had been slashed in a previous crime, had them mounted on 
the rims 

Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-16 Thread Tom DeReggi

Tim,

I agree, there is risk of not getting covered, if full disclosure is not 
given. That is something that the WISP should consider in advance. (But 
doesn't mean it won't be covered, as they'd need to prove that having the 
bucket was something both parties typical would think relevant to disclose. 
The insurance company wrote the contract and it would be their 
responsibility to bring up the things that should or should not be 
disclosed. I'd not suggest a WISP lie, if there was a question or text 
referencing wether there was or wasn't a bucket, as that would guarantee not 
getting covered.)   But I think it is also relavent, what a WISPs intent is 
for use of the truck and bucket.  Someone that wants a bucket truck, but 
only plans to use it once a month for the tough job, should not have to 
pay the same high rate, as say a Lineman that may use the bucket all day / 
every day around high voltage lines.  Very few insurance companies have 
provisions for that, as they do not have a way to control what the usage 
will actually end up being.  This means a WISP then needs to make cost 
versus risk assesments, on what they want to do. I'd also argue, that it 
would be rare for me to ever justify making an insurance claim, based on the 
risk of loosing the insurance or no longer being able to afford it, after 
making the claime.  (except for extreme cases like someone falling and 
breaking their neck).  If the owner or a supervisor are the only ones that 
will be using the bucket, more care can be taken and less risk taken, than 
if the intent is for the truck to be used by all/any installers frequently. 
Some people buy insurance for compliance to do business, not necessarilly 
for the coverage itself.  Just like every other type of insurance (health, 
life, business, etc), one must waiver wether they really need insurance, or 
can afford to pay to releive the risk or not.


Quite honestly, I'd rather take a chance of not getting covered in a bucket, 
and minimize the risk of someone getting injured because they have the 
bucket, than have the installer taking risks on a dangerous ladder all day 
long.  I'm not downplaying the risk involved for a bucket truck, I'm jsut 
saying that Ladders are dangerous to, expecially for single man crew.  I 
know about more personal injury suits in the trades, via falling off 
ladders, than any other cause.


Its not that I don't believe in insurance, or in doing it legitimately. Its 
just that if a WISP is not careful, there insurance policy costs can put 
them out of business, just having an uninsured injury.  For example, many 
amusement companies go out of business because they can't afford the 
insurance and can't jsutify takingthe risk without it.  I'd hate to see the 
same thing destroy wireless companies.


I prefer to handle the issue from the other side... Inforce strong safety 
policies and safety awareness education.  The safety training is much less 
expensive than the insurance and paying claims. Not that that negates the 
need for insurance, but it will keep the rates down, if WISPs as an industry 
don't put themselves in the position to be claim happy.


For the record, I personally do not have a bucket truck yet.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.



Tom DeReggi wrote:

If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket!
Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck!

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


As an insurance agent for the last 16 years in the state of PA(Besides 
running a WISP too for the last 5 years), I can tell You that there are 
some negatives to just Not mentioning the fact that it has a bucket on 
it. The first one is that when You sign the insurance application(This 
info. only applies to the state of PA where I am licensed, keep in mind 
the every state has different insurance laws, but almost ALL of them 
adopted the laws from the state of NY, as they were one of the first to 
actually clamp down and adopt them, and this is what PA uses), there is a 
paragraph that says all of the information You have submitted to the 
insurance CO is correct and You then sign underneath it. It is a great 
possibility that by omitting the fact that Your van had a bucket on it, 
the CO could deny Your claim based on the fact that You chose to omit the 
information about the bucket on purpose, as You knew this would stop You 
from securing coverage?. While I do understand that securing the proper 
insurance is becoming expensive, maybe even out of hand?, I do not want to 
see You or any other small CO lose everything buy trying to cut corners 
and get around something by being dishonest?. Almost all insurance have 
something called Good faith 

Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-16 Thread Peter R.
Borders on Insurance fraud... and if you have to activate the insurance, 
they don't have to pay...


Tom DeReggi wrote:


If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket!
Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck!

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


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Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-16 Thread Brian Rohrbacher
A guy that was helping me out crashed my install truck a month or two 
ago.  He didn't see a stop sign.  He t-boned an old couple in their 
mid-late 70s.  The woman more than had enough injuries to qualify for 
the 100K personal liability/personal disability (PL/PD) I had on the 
plan.  But wait..My truck didn't have commercial insurance.  It 
wasn't even in my name or company name, but I owned the truck.  Anyway, 
the way my lawyer explains it, that 100K coverage it almost automatic 
for when someone gets hurt.  (they also said that within hours after the 
accident report was filed the insurance lawyers would be all over this 
couple offering to take the case)  Anyway, all the couple has to do is 
ask (sue) for the 100K and it is theirs.  We'll see how it plays out.  I 
hope my coverage wouldn't be denied if they decide to walk to the lotto 
store and cash in the winning ticket (as my lawyer put it).


I have since switched to my own commercial policy, but there is one 
thing that really ticks me off.  the commercial policy is CHEAPER!  That 
is insane.  I pay every 6 months.  It was like $400 and now it's $350, 
even though I got a speeding ticket 2 months ago.  He says he clocked me 
at 35 in a 25, but I was in manual 3rd gear and you can feel those 
RPMs.  I looked down and saw 28.  I was pissed I went right home stuck 
the gps on the roof and drove.  I had 9 satellites and my speedo was 
dead nutz.  Anyway, because the wreck was my truck I got an at fault on 
my record, but so did my helper along with a failure to stop and the 
automatic 3 points for causing a wreck.  I went from a clean record 
single driver on regular insurance to a commercial policy with 2 drivers 
and a combination of 2 tickets, 2 at faults, and 7 points...and I saved 
$50.  WHERE YOU AT NOW GECKO!


The moral of the story is if you are not on commercial insurance you 
need to go get yourself a few tickets and switch.  You will be better 
protected and have cheaper rates.


Brian

Tom DeReggi wrote:


Tim,

I agree, there is risk of not getting covered, if full disclosure is 
not given. That is something that the WISP should consider in advance. 
(But doesn't mean it won't be covered, as they'd need to prove that 
having the bucket was something both parties typical would think 
relevant to disclose. The insurance company wrote the contract and it 
would be their responsibility to bring up the things that should or 
should not be disclosed. I'd not suggest a WISP lie, if there was a 
question or text referencing wether there was or wasn't a bucket, as 
that would guarantee not getting covered.)   But I think it is also 
relavent, what a WISPs intent is for use of the truck and bucket.  
Someone that wants a bucket truck, but only plans to use it once a 
month for the tough job, should not have to pay the same high rate, 
as say a Lineman that may use the bucket all day / every day around 
high voltage lines.  Very few insurance companies have provisions for 
that, as they do not have a way to control what the usage will 
actually end up being.  This means a WISP then needs to make cost 
versus risk assesments, on what they want to do. I'd also argue, that 
it would be rare for me to ever justify making an insurance claim, 
based on the risk of loosing the insurance or no longer being able to 
afford it, after making the claime.  (except for extreme cases like 
someone falling and breaking their neck).  If the owner or a 
supervisor are the only ones that will be using the bucket, more care 
can be taken and less risk taken, than if the intent is for the truck 
to be used by all/any installers frequently. Some people buy insurance 
for compliance to do business, not necessarilly for the coverage 
itself.  Just like every other type of insurance (health, life, 
business, etc), one must waiver wether they really need insurance, or 
can afford to pay to releive the risk or not.


Quite honestly, I'd rather take a chance of not getting covered in a 
bucket, and minimize the risk of someone getting injured because they 
have the bucket, than have the installer taking risks on a dangerous 
ladder all day long.  I'm not downplaying the risk involved for a 
bucket truck, I'm jsut saying that Ladders are dangerous to, 
expecially for single man crew.  I know about more personal injury 
suits in the trades, via falling off ladders, than any other cause.


Its not that I don't believe in insurance, or in doing it 
legitimately. Its just that if a WISP is not careful, there insurance 
policy costs can put them out of business, just having an uninsured 
injury.  For example, many amusement companies go out of business 
because they can't afford the insurance and can't jsutify takingthe 
risk without it.  I'd hate to see the same thing destroy wireless 
companies.


I prefer to handle the issue from the other side... Inforce strong 
safety policies and safety awareness education.  The safety training 
is much less expensive than the 

RE: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs. And Worker's Comp...

2006-11-16 Thread Dylan Bouterse
How are you handling worker's comp for the people authorized to use the
truck?

Dylan

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
 Behalf Of cw
 Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:10 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for
 installs.
 
 You might have your agent try Progressive. Ours is listed as a
 ladder/bucket
 truck and they never said that was a problem. It's $2200/yr with
collision
 and a million liability. Seems expensive to me but Florida insurance
rates
 are just that way. - cw
 
 Dylan Bouterse wrote:
  I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the
  insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our
  insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift
because
  of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies
  getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work?
 
  Dylan

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Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-16 Thread Tim Wolfe
Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it 
would be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting 
information. There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The 
first one is like Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have to, 
and the thought of using it doesn't really cross Your mind for all the 
reasons You mentioned below. If it were possible, I am sure that 
insurance CO's would love to find a way to discern the quality customers 
from the irresponsible ones, and charge lower rates based on this fact, 
and the fact that the bucket is only used once a month?. That sad part 
is there is no real way to do this, as insurance is based on the law of 
large #'s, and in order for it to work, everyone must be lumped together 
in one big pool(for lack of other words?). Your customer profile is 
fairly common though. I respect the fact that when the truck is in the 
field, only responsible operators like Yourself will be operating the 
bucket, being extra cautious as to whats going on around You and whats 
happening when the boom is moving etc. This is the way it should be at 
all times. Now lets move on to the second type of customer(The most 
uncommon, believe it or not?). This person usually does everything they 
can to cut corners, not only with work ethics and install qualities but 
also with their level of responsibilties in the day to day operation of 
their business. This customer will hire the cheapest employee that will 
work for them, skimp on safety and vehicle maintainence,  owe $$ to most 
of the vendors he or she does business with and they will usually try 
and call their employees Sub-contractors, trying to avoid paying taxes 
and workmans compensation to make more $$(This is really an entirely 
different topic, but I am just using this as an example?). This risk 
taking carries over to things such as the safe use of a bucket truck. If 
You remember, I mentioned that the people that work for this person are 
really only there because they can not find a job anywhere else, and our 
business owner in question hires them because it is cheap labor. The day 
comes when the bucket truck is needed for an install, and our employee 
gets behind the wheel to do the job(Keep in mind that our employee was 
up half the night boozing with his/her friends, and just found it their 
spouse is messing with the neighbor). When at the job site, this 
employee will not have very good safety principles, and will do 
something really dumb like tear the service head for the electric off 
the wall of the house and tear down the cable CO's fiber line, along 
with the local Telco's phone systems. The reason I am mentioning all 
this is because for the most part, 10% of all insurance customers file 
90% of the claims for reasons mentioned above. This same customer will 
also use their insurance policy as a maintainence contract, and try to 
get the insurance CO to pay for things that You or I would simply say, 
OK, this happened, but I will just fix it myself, as it was my fault in 
the first place.  I dropped a 4ft piece of pipe off of the roof last 
year and it hit the only car parked on the entire street. It was an 
older car that already had 4000 dents and peeling paint, but the damage 
to the fender was $430. I just paid it, because it was stupidity in the 
first place, and I didn't want my rates to go up?. Now, the other side 
of this: We have an incidence where an individual needed new tires for 
inspection, so using their really smart brain, they drove it home from 
the mechanic that failed it, and slashed all the tires themselves. The 
insurance CO only paid the prorated amount, as the tires were worn out 
in the first place, so this enterprising individual got pissed, and went 
and got a set of tires(That didn't match) from the local junk yard that 
had been slashed in a previous crime, had them mounted on the rims for 
the van, and then tried to claim a 2nd time that his tires had been 
vandalized again. I guess You all figured out that this moron is now in 
jail for insurance fraud?(For every one that is caught, 10 get away with it)
The reason I am mentioning all of this is that I am trying to show all 
of You why and how Your insurance rates have been steadily rising over 
the last few years. The bad thing is that even though I am an agent, I 
still pay the same rates that everyone else pays. I also do not have a 
bucket truck, as I find them useless for over 99% of all the installs I 
do(I am sure there are some of us who would be lost without one?), and I 
can not justify the costs for a device that will sit around most of the 
time. Keep in mind that no matter who operates that bucket truck, and 
how careful they are, it only takes a split second for something bad to 
happen, and if that claim is not insured (Or the CO denys it) and it is 
a large loss, The person without the needed coverage will be the one 
getting screwed. It really could mean the difference 

Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-16 Thread Tom DeReggi
When you put it that way... It does bring a new perpective to think 
about. Well said.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.


Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it would 
be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting information. 
There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The first one is like 
Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have to, and the thought of 
using it doesn't really cross Your mind for all the reasons You mentioned 
below. If it were possible, I am sure that insurance CO's would love to 
find a way to discern the quality customers from the irresponsible ones, 
and charge lower rates based on this fact, and the fact that the bucket is 
only used once a month?. That sad part is there is no real way to do this, 
as insurance is based on the law of large #'s, and in order for it to 
work, everyone must be lumped together in one big pool(for lack of other 
words?). Your customer profile is fairly common though. I respect the fact 
that when the truck is in the field, only responsible operators like 
Yourself will be operating the bucket, being extra cautious as to whats 
going on around You and whats happening when the boom is moving etc. This 
is the way it should be at all times. Now lets move on to the second type 
of customer(The most uncommon, believe it or not?). This person usually 
does everything they can to cut corners, not only with work ethics and 
install qualities but also with their level of responsibilties in the day 
to day operation of their business. This customer will hire the cheapest 
employee that will work for them, skimp on safety and vehicle 
maintainence,  owe $$ to most of the vendors he or she does business with 
and they will usually try and call their employees Sub-contractors, 
trying to avoid paying taxes and workmans compensation to make more 
$$(This is really an entirely different topic, but I am just using this as 
an example?). This risk taking carries over to things such as the safe use 
of a bucket truck. If You remember, I mentioned that the people that work 
for this person are really only there because they can not find a job 
anywhere else, and our business owner in question hires them because it is 
cheap labor. The day comes when the bucket truck is needed for an install, 
and our employee gets behind the wheel to do the job(Keep in mind that our 
employee was up half the night boozing with his/her friends, and just 
found it their spouse is messing with the neighbor). When at the job site, 
this employee will not have very good safety principles, and will do 
something really dumb like tear the service head for the electric off the 
wall of the house and tear down the cable CO's fiber line, along with the 
local Telco's phone systems. The reason I am mentioning all this is 
because for the most part, 10% of all insurance customers file 90% of the 
claims for reasons mentioned above. This same customer will also use their 
insurance policy as a maintainence contract, and try to get the insurance 
CO to pay for things that You or I would simply say, OK, this happened, 
but I will just fix it myself, as it was my fault in the first place.  I 
dropped a 4ft piece of pipe off of the roof last year and it hit the only 
car parked on the entire street. It was an older car that already had 4000 
dents and peeling paint, but the damage to the fender was $430. I just 
paid it, because it was stupidity in the first place, and I didn't want my 
rates to go up?. Now, the other side of this: We have an incidence where 
an individual needed new tires for inspection, so using their really smart 
brain, they drove it home from the mechanic that failed it, and slashed 
all the tires themselves. The insurance CO only paid the prorated amount, 
as the tires were worn out in the first place, so this enterprising 
individual got pissed, and went and got a set of tires(That didn't match) 
from the local junk yard that had been slashed in a previous crime, had 
them mounted on the rims for the van, and then tried to claim a 2nd time 
that his tires had been vandalized again. I guess You all figured out that 
this moron is now in jail for insurance fraud?(For every one that is 
caught, 10 get away with it)
The reason I am mentioning all of this is that I am trying to show all of 
You why and how Your insurance rates have been steadily rising over the 
last few years. The bad thing is that even though I am an agent, I still 
pay the same rates that everyone else pays. I also do not have a bucket 
truck, as I find them useless for over 99% of all the installs I do(I am 
sure there are some of us who would be lost without one?), and I can not 
justify 

Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-16 Thread Travis Johnson

Hi,

There are several other factors to consider here insurance on the 
vehicle itself is to cover if you damage someone else's property 
(vehicle) by getting into an accident on the road. You may also have 
full-coverage insurance to pay to fix the bucket truck itself.


However, the other issue is general liability insurance... if you have 
someone in the bucket and they go thru someone's roof because they 
aren't paying attention, wouldn't that be covered by your general 
liability policy, rather than the auto insurance policy?


Travis
Microserv

P.S. In almost 10 years in the wireless business, and well over 
1,000,000 miles logged on over 20 wireless vehicles during that time 
(including several bucket trucks), we have never had an insurance 
claim...  yet my rates continue to go up every year... :(


Tom DeReggi wrote:
When you put it that way... It does bring a new perpective to 
think about. Well said.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for 
installs.



Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it 
would be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting 
information. There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The 
first one is like Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have 
to, and the thought of using it doesn't really cross Your mind for 
all the reasons You mentioned below. If it were possible, I am sure 
that insurance CO's would love to find a way to discern the quality 
customers from the irresponsible ones, and charge lower rates based 
on this fact, and the fact that the bucket is only used once a 
month?. That sad part is there is no real way to do this, as 
insurance is based on the law of large #'s, and in order for it to 
work, everyone must be lumped together in one big pool(for lack of 
other words?). Your customer profile is fairly common though. I 
respect the fact that when the truck is in the field, only 
responsible operators like Yourself will be operating the bucket, 
being extra cautious as to whats going on around You and whats 
happening when the boom is moving etc. This is the way it should be 
at all times. Now lets move on to the second type of customer(The 
most uncommon, believe it or not?). This person usually does 
everything they can to cut corners, not only with work ethics and 
install qualities but also with their level of responsibilties in the 
day to day operation of their business. This customer will hire the 
cheapest employee that will work for them, skimp on safety and 
vehicle maintainence,  owe $$ to most of the vendors he or she does 
business with and they will usually try and call their employees 
Sub-contractors, trying to avoid paying taxes and workmans 
compensation to make more $$(This is really an entirely different 
topic, but I am just using this as an example?). This risk taking 
carries over to things such as the safe use of a bucket truck. If You 
remember, I mentioned that the people that work for this person are 
really only there because they can not find a job anywhere else, and 
our business owner in question hires them because it is cheap labor. 
The day comes when the bucket truck is needed for an install, and our 
employee gets behind the wheel to do the job(Keep in mind that our 
employee was up half the night boozing with his/her friends, and just 
found it their spouse is messing with the neighbor). When at the job 
site, this employee will not have very good safety principles, and 
will do something really dumb like tear the service head for the 
electric off the wall of the house and tear down the cable CO's fiber 
line, along with the local Telco's phone systems. The reason I am 
mentioning all this is because for the most part, 10% of all 
insurance customers file 90% of the claims for reasons mentioned 
above. This same customer will also use their insurance policy as a 
maintainence contract, and try to get the insurance CO to pay for 
things that You or I would simply say, OK, this happened, but I will 
just fix it myself, as it was my fault in the first place.  I 
dropped a 4ft piece of pipe off of the roof last year and it hit the 
only car parked on the entire street. It was an older car that 
already had 4000 dents and peeling paint, but the damage to the 
fender was $430. I just paid it, because it was stupidity in the 
first place, and I didn't want my rates to go up?. Now, the other 
side of this: We have an incidence where an individual needed new 
tires for inspection, so using their really smart brain, they drove 
it home from the mechanic that failed it, and slashed all the tires 
themselves. The insurance CO only paid the prorated amount, as the 
tires were worn out in the first place, so this enterprising 

Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-16 Thread J. Vogel
Travis brings up a good point I think. When I purchased insurance on my
bucket truck,
I specifically asked the agent about possible problems with it being a
bucket truck, and
he assured me that as far as the automotive liability insurance was
concerned, the bucket
had no effect, as any mis-haps involving the use of the bucket itself
would not fall
under automotive insurance policies. It would effect comprehensive
insurance as the
value of the truck would be increased, but my truck is old enough I just
took liability
on it.

I too think issues with the use of the bucket would more likely be
covered under
my general liability policy, unless it was a case of employee injury
(falling out of the
bucket) which would fall under workman's comp. Meanwhile, I use the
truck because
it is so much safer for me (and any employee's I might hire) than
working from a ladder.

The holder of my general business liability may well disclaim any
responsibility because
they think it should be the automotive insurer's. :)

I hope I never have to find out.

John


Travis Johnson wrote:

 Hi,

 There are several other factors to consider here insurance on the
 vehicle itself is to cover if you damage someone else's property
 (vehicle) by getting into an accident on the road. You may also have
 full-coverage insurance to pay to fix the bucket truck itself.

 However, the other issue is general liability insurance... if you have
 someone in the bucket and they go thru someone's roof because they
 aren't paying attention, wouldn't that be covered by your general
 liability policy, rather than the auto insurance policy?

 Travis
 Microserv

 P.S. In almost 10 years in the wireless business, and well over
 1,000,000 miles logged on over 20 wireless vehicles during that time
 (including several bucket trucks), we have never had an insurance
 claim...  yet my rates continue to go up every year... :(

 Tom DeReggi wrote:
 When you put it that way... It does bring a new perpective to
 think about. Well said.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for
 installs.


 Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it
 would be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting
 information. There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The
 first one is like Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have
 to, and the thought of using it doesn't really cross Your mind for
 all the reasons You mentioned below. If it were possible, I am sure
 that insurance CO's would love to find a way to discern the quality
 customers from the irresponsible ones, and charge lower rates based
 on this fact, and the fact that the bucket is only used once a
 month?. That sad part is there is no real way to do this, as
 insurance is based on the law of large #'s, and in order for it to
 work, everyone must be lumped together in one big pool(for lack of
 other words?). Your customer profile is fairly common though. I
 respect the fact that when the truck is in the field, only
 responsible operators like Yourself will be operating the bucket,
 being extra cautious as to whats going on around You and whats
 happening when the boom is moving etc. This is the way it should be
 at all times. Now lets move on to the second type of customer(The
 most uncommon, believe it or not?). This person usually does
 everything they can to cut corners, not only with work ethics and
 install qualities but also with their level of responsibilties in
 the day to day operation of their business. This customer will hire
 the cheapest employee that will work for them, skimp on safety and
 vehicle maintainence,  owe $$ to most of the vendors he or she does
 business with and they will usually try and call their employees
 Sub-contractors, trying to avoid paying taxes and workmans
 compensation to make more $$(This is really an entirely different
 topic, but I am just using this as an example?). This risk taking
 carries over to things such as the safe use of a bucket truck. If
 You remember, I mentioned that the people that work for this person
 are really only there because they can not find a job anywhere else,
 and our business owner in question hires them because it is cheap
 labor. The day comes when the bucket truck is needed for an install,
 and our employee gets behind the wheel to do the job(Keep in mind
 that our employee was up half the night boozing with his/her
 friends, and just found it their spouse is messing with the
 neighbor). When at the job site, this employee will not have very
 good safety principles, and will do something really dumb like tear
 the service head for the electric off the wall of the house and tear
 down the cable CO's fiber line, along with the local Telco's phone
 

Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-16 Thread Tom DeReggi
I disagree with that.  Something isn't fraud, if no concious effort was made 
to hide something or deceive someone. Not being asked, is not being the same 
thing as hiding something.  If you installed a new stereo system in your 
vehichle or a new ladder rack, would you call your insurance company and 
say, PLEASE RAISE MY RATES I JUST ADDED SOME MORE EXPENSIVE ACCESSORIES TO 
MY VEHICHLE. No of course not, and not doing that does not exclude coverage 
for those items added that are newly attached to the vehichle.  If you ask 
to have a VAN covered, you are covering the VAN. If you didn't ask to have a 
bucket covered you aren't covering the bucket.  There is no fraud because 
there was never an agreement or intent from either party to cover the 
bucket.  Their was a mutual agreement to jsut cover the VAN.  Therefore if 
the VAN was in a driving colission non-related to the bucket, the fact that 
a bucket was on it is irrelevent.  Plus, the insurance company has an 
obligation to protect the other party that was hit. If not, uninsured 
motorists kicks in. The uninsured motorists covering that will then legally 
fight your insurance company to make them pay it instead, and only cover it 
themselves if lost battle.  I'd never advise someone to lie on an insurance 
application. If you are asked if it has a bucket or accessories of 
releveance, then it should be disclosed. Many agents don't ask, and not even 
sure all applications have a check box for a bucket on a VAN.  I know when I 
ask a bank to finance a VAN with a Bucket, they only appraise the vehichle 
as a VAN because Bucket isn't an accessory listed on their accessories 
to include on the VAN for acessing the value. One of the reasons I don;t 
have a VAN, because I can only get financing on Half the cost I'd pay for 
the VAN, and Blue book only considers the VAN itself.  When a CLAIM is made 
to the insurance company, asking to cover the value of the VAN, they will go 
to the Blue Book and use it to define the VAN. Do you think the insurance 
comapny will add on the value of the Bucket? No way.  You can use the 
insurance company's own standard policy of how they assess the value of the 
VAN when it would be covered, as the method to define what the VAN is.  What 
makes a Bank's definition of what a VAN is any different than what an 
insurance company defines a VAN as?


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:45 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.


God forbid the van kills someone in a traffic accident unrelated to the
bucket all together.  The Insurance Company could and probably would deny
the claim due to a falsified application.  If an insurance company can find
a way out of a claim (especially a costly one) they will.

Best,


Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Wolfe
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:14 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

Tom DeReggi wrote:

If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket!
Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck!

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband



As an insurance agent for the last 16 years in the state of PA(Besides
running a WISP too for the last 5 years), I can tell You that there are
some negatives to just Not mentioning the fact that it has a bucket on
it. The first one is that when You sign the insurance application(This
info. only applies to the state of PA where I am licensed, keep in mind
the every state has different insurance laws, but almost ALL of them
adopted the laws from the state of NY, as they were one of the first to
actually clamp down and adopt them, and this is what PA uses), there is
a paragraph that says all of the information You have submitted to the
insurance CO is correct and You then sign underneath it. It is a great
possibility that by omitting the fact that Your van had a bucket on
it, the CO could deny Your claim based on the fact that You chose to
omit the information about the bucket on purpose, as You knew this would
stop You from securing coverage?. While I do understand that securing
the proper insurance is becoming expensive, maybe even out of hand?, I
do not want to see You or any other small CO lose everything buy trying
to cut corners and get around something by being dishonest?. Almost all
insurance have something called Good faith agreements in them. This
Good Faith agreement is based on upon the fact that both You and the
insurance CO have been up front and honest with each other about what
coverages You are receiving from the CO and what type of risk the CO is
actually insuring. They fulfill their half by giving You a policy that
specificly states what 

Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-16 Thread Tom DeReggi
Excellent point Travis.  It would be covered under business liabilty 
insurance and/or workman's comp.
Auto insurance is meant to cover the driver or other guy that got hurt in a 
driving accident.
Never once heard of a bucket contributing to a driving accident with another 
vehichle.


Unless of course you were driving down the road and forgot to lower the boom 
before driving away :-)


Your business liabilty insurance is also more appropriate for this, as you 
classify what type of business you are in. Using it as a lineman, home 
construction, or Computer Networking can be considered and has required 
provisions for defining that in the agreement.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.



Hi,

There are several other factors to consider here insurance on the 
vehicle itself is to cover if you damage someone else's property (vehicle) 
by getting into an accident on the road. You may also have full-coverage 
insurance to pay to fix the bucket truck itself.


However, the other issue is general liability insurance... if you have 
someone in the bucket and they go thru someone's roof because they aren't 
paying attention, wouldn't that be covered by your general liability 
policy, rather than the auto insurance policy?


Travis
Microserv

P.S. In almost 10 years in the wireless business, and well over 1,000,000 
miles logged on over 20 wireless vehicles during that time (including 
several bucket trucks), we have never had an insurance claim...  yet my 
rates continue to go up every year... :(


Tom DeReggi wrote:
When you put it that way... It does bring a new perpective to think 
about. Well said.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Tim Wolfe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for 
installs.



Tom, I do share some of same views that You have. I just thought it 
would be a good idea to present the pros and cons of omitting 
information. There are 2 types of insurance customers it seems?. The 
first one is like Yourself. You buy the insurance because You have to, 
and the thought of using it doesn't really cross Your mind for all the 
reasons You mentioned below. If it were possible, I am sure that 
insurance CO's would love to find a way to discern the quality customers 
from the irresponsible ones, and charge lower rates based on this fact, 
and the fact that the bucket is only used once a month?. That sad part 
is there is no real way to do this, as insurance is based on the law of 
large #'s, and in order for it to work, everyone must be lumped together 
in one big pool(for lack of other words?). Your customer profile is 
fairly common though. I respect the fact that when the truck is in the 
field, only responsible operators like Yourself will be operating the 
bucket, being extra cautious as to whats going on around You and whats 
happening when the boom is moving etc. This is the way it should be at 
all times. Now lets move on to the second type of customer(The most 
uncommon, believe it or not?). This person usually does everything they 
can to cut corners, not only with work ethics and install qualities but 
also with their level of responsibilties in the day to day operation of 
their business. This customer will hire the cheapest employee that will 
work for them, skimp on safety and vehicle maintainence,  owe $$ to most 
of the vendors he or she does business with and they will usually try 
and call their employees Sub-contractors, trying to avoid paying taxes 
and workmans compensation to make more $$(This is really an entirely 
different topic, but I am just using this as an example?). This risk 
taking carries over to things such as the safe use of a bucket truck. If 
You remember, I mentioned that the people that work for this person are 
really only there because they can not find a job anywhere else, and our 
business owner in question hires them because it is cheap labor. The day 
comes when the bucket truck is needed for an install, and our employee 
gets behind the wheel to do the job(Keep in mind that our employee was 
up half the night boozing with his/her friends, and just found it their 
spouse is messing with the neighbor). When at the job site, this 
employee will not have very good safety principles, and will do 
something really dumb like tear the service head for the electric off 
the wall of the house and tear down the cable CO's fiber line, along 
with the local Telco's phone systems. The reason I am mentioning all 
this is because for the most part, 10% of all insurance customers file 
90% of the 

Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-16 Thread Tim Wolfe

Tom DeReggi wrote:
Excellent point Travis.  It would be covered under business liabilty 
insurance and/or workman's comp.
Auto insurance is meant to cover the driver or other guy that got hurt 
in a driving accident.
Never once heard of a bucket contributing to a driving accident with 
another vehichle.


Unless of course you were driving down the road and forgot to lower 
the boom before driving away :-)


Your business liabilty insurance is also more appropriate for this, as 
you classify what type of business you are in. Using it as a 
lineman, home construction, or Computer Networking can be 
considered and has required provisions for defining that in the 
agreement.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Travis Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, November 16, 2006 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for 
installs.


Tom, Wrong answer about the business liability insurance :-) . In most 
states, the insurance covers ANYTHING that arises due to the vehicle or 
its use. For instance, in PA, if You close the van door on Your 
hand(even if the vehicle is parked and not moving) and break it, Your 
auto insurance has to pay the medical bills. If the operator of the 
bucket truck sends it through the roof of the house they are working on, 
then the property damage coverage of Your auto policy(primary) kicks in 
and pays for the roof. There is a chance that Your business insurance(GL 
or general liability) policy would cover You on a secondary basis if the 
coverage on the auto policy was not enough and You were sued for the 
difference?(Varies by state). The legal term for this is called the 
proximate cause of the accident or problem, and since the bucket was 
attached to the van, the auto policy will cover it. This is why Your 
insurance CO is pitching a fit about the bucket. Here is some more 
insurance trivia that all of You should be aware of, as I for one hate 
surprises. Did You know that if at the end of Your employees shift, You 
ask that person to drop off a check, contract, pick up a part at radio 
shack etc. and they are involved in an accident, You are going to be 
sued right along with Your employee and their (employee's)private auto 
insurer will more than likely deny the claim, as most personal lines 
policies do not cover any type of business use, period. The idea here is 
that the accident in question would have never occured if You had not 
asked the employee to run an errand for You. We also have some of us 
business owners that do not own any private vehicles. If everything You 
own is insured commercially?, Do Not EVER rent a vehicle unless Your 
Business auto policy has drive other car coverage, because if it 
doesn't?, You will be paying the bill for the accident, as most 
commercial auto policies only cover the vehicles listed on it, and if it 
'aint there?, It 'aint covered. :-(

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Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-15 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

We dropped it and parked the truck for now.

When it's time to use it again I'll probably just have the insurance set up 
so that I'm the only one that can use the truck.


Our insurance is a wreck these days.  The costs have shot up so high it's 
almost impossible to afford any.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Dylan Bouterse [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:22 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.


I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the
insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our
insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because
of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies
getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work?

Dylan
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-15 Thread Tom DeReggi

If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket!
Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck!

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.



We dropped it and parked the truck for now.

When it's time to use it again I'll probably just have the insurance set 
up so that I'm the only one that can use the truck.


Our insurance is a wreck these days.  The costs have shot up so high it's 
almost impossible to afford any.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Dylan Bouterse [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:22 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.


I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the
insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our
insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because
of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies
getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work?

Dylan
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RE: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-15 Thread Forbes Mercy
I use standard Farmers Insurance for our fleet insurance who has never 
mentioned a problem with the fact that it's a bucket truck or not.

Forbes Mercy
President - Washington Broadband, Inc.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. 
Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 9:31 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

We dropped it and parked the truck for now.

When it's time to use it again I'll probably just have the insurance set up 
so that I'm the only one that can use the truck.

Our insurance is a wreck these days.  The costs have shot up so high it's 
almost impossible to afford any.
Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Dylan Bouterse [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:22 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.


I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the
insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our
insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because
of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies
getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work?

Dylan
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-15 Thread Travis Johnson

Yup yup yup. Ours is a Ford F-350 4x4. :)

Travis
Microserv

Tom DeReggi wrote:

If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket!
Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck!

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for 
installs.




We dropped it and parked the truck for now.

When it's time to use it again I'll probably just have the insurance 
set up so that I'm the only one that can use the truck.


Our insurance is a wreck these days.  The costs have shot up so high 
it's almost impossible to afford any.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - From: Dylan Bouterse 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 8:22 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.


I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the
insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our
insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because
of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies
getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work?

Dylan
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-15 Thread Tim Wolfe

Tom DeReggi wrote:

If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket!
Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck!

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


As an insurance agent for the last 16 years in the state of PA(Besides 
running a WISP too for the last 5 years), I can tell You that there are 
some negatives to just Not mentioning the fact that it has a bucket on 
it. The first one is that when You sign the insurance application(This 
info. only applies to the state of PA where I am licensed, keep in mind 
the every state has different insurance laws, but almost ALL of them 
adopted the laws from the state of NY, as they were one of the first to 
actually clamp down and adopt them, and this is what PA uses), there is 
a paragraph that says all of the information You have submitted to the 
insurance CO is correct and You then sign underneath it. It is a great 
possibility that by omitting the fact that Your van had a bucket on 
it, the CO could deny Your claim based on the fact that You chose to 
omit the information about the bucket on purpose, as You knew this would 
stop You from securing coverage?. While I do understand that securing 
the proper insurance is becoming expensive, maybe even out of hand?, I 
do not want to see You or any other small CO lose everything buy trying 
to cut corners and get around something by being dishonest?. Almost all 
insurance have something called Good faith agreements in them. This 
Good Faith agreement is based on upon the fact that both You and the 
insurance CO have been up front and honest with each other about what 
coverages You are receiving from the CO and what type of risk the CO is 
actually insuring. They fulfill their half by giving You a policy that 
specificly states what they will and will not pay for, and You fulfill 
Your responsibility by filling out the application with all of Your 
information so that the insurance CO can decide what to charge You based 
upon the information You provided them. If You lie, or as the politicly 
correct term used is Omit some vital information that would stop the 
CO from issuing insurance, then the contract is broken by You right up 
front, and this fact alone could cause You some grave financial harm if 
You employee tears down some fiber and/or phone lines. Just some food 
for thought.

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RE: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-15 Thread Brad Belton
God forbid the van kills someone in a traffic accident unrelated to the
bucket all together.  The Insurance Company could and probably would deny
the claim due to a falsified application.  If an insurance company can find
a way out of a claim (especially a costly one) they will.

Best,


Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Wolfe
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:14 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

Tom DeReggi wrote:
 If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket!
 Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck!

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


As an insurance agent for the last 16 years in the state of PA(Besides 
running a WISP too for the last 5 years), I can tell You that there are 
some negatives to just Not mentioning the fact that it has a bucket on 
it. The first one is that when You sign the insurance application(This 
info. only applies to the state of PA where I am licensed, keep in mind 
the every state has different insurance laws, but almost ALL of them 
adopted the laws from the state of NY, as they were one of the first to 
actually clamp down and adopt them, and this is what PA uses), there is 
a paragraph that says all of the information You have submitted to the 
insurance CO is correct and You then sign underneath it. It is a great 
possibility that by omitting the fact that Your van had a bucket on 
it, the CO could deny Your claim based on the fact that You chose to 
omit the information about the bucket on purpose, as You knew this would 
stop You from securing coverage?. While I do understand that securing 
the proper insurance is becoming expensive, maybe even out of hand?, I 
do not want to see You or any other small CO lose everything buy trying 
to cut corners and get around something by being dishonest?. Almost all 
insurance have something called Good faith agreements in them. This 
Good Faith agreement is based on upon the fact that both You and the 
insurance CO have been up front and honest with each other about what 
coverages You are receiving from the CO and what type of risk the CO is 
actually insuring. They fulfill their half by giving You a policy that 
specificly states what they will and will not pay for, and You fulfill 
Your responsibility by filling out the application with all of Your 
information so that the insurance CO can decide what to charge You based 
upon the information You provided them. If You lie, or as the politicly 
correct term used is Omit some vital information that would stop the 
CO from issuing insurance, then the contract is broken by You right up 
front, and this fact alone could cause You some grave financial harm if 
You employee tears down some fiber and/or phone lines. Just some food 
for thought.
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Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-15 Thread cw
You might have your agent try Progressive. Ours is listed as a ladder/bucket 
truck and they never said that was a problem. It's $2200/yr with collision 
and a million liability. Seems expensive to me but Florida insurance rates 
are just that way. - cw


Dylan Bouterse wrote:

I'd like to hear (on or off list) how other ISPs are handling the
insurance demands of owning/operating a lift or bucket truck. Our
insurance company has refused to insure a bucket truck or lift because
of the operating height above ground level. How are other companies
getting insured or are you outsourcing jobs that require lift work?

Dylan

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Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

2006-11-15 Thread lakeland
In NY I have to take the vehicle to the insurance company so they can verify 
ownership and vehicle net worth 

I would not be able to hide that the vehicle is a bucket truck 

We presently rent a bucket truck from unitef rental which includes insurance. 
3000 per month

Bob
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry  

-Original Message-
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2006 19:45:53 
To:'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

God forbid the van kills someone in a traffic accident unrelated to the
bucket all together.  The Insurance Company could and probably would deny
the claim due to a falsified application.  If an insurance company can find
a way out of a claim (especially a costly one) they will.

Best,


Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Wolfe
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 7:14 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Insurance for use of bucket truck or lift for installs.

Tom DeReggi wrote:
 If its a standard VAN / Truck body, Don't tell them about the bucket!
 Call it a VAN, not a Bucket truck!

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


As an insurance agent for the last 16 years in the state of PA(Besides 
running a WISP too for the last 5 years), I can tell You that there are 
some negatives to just Not mentioning the fact that it has a bucket on 
it. The first one is that when You sign the insurance application(This 
info. only applies to the state of PA where I am licensed, keep in mind 
the every state has different insurance laws, but almost ALL of them 
adopted the laws from the state of NY, as they were one of the first to 
actually clamp down and adopt them, and this is what PA uses), there is 
a paragraph that says all of the information You have submitted to the 
insurance CO is correct and You then sign underneath it. It is a great 
possibility that by omitting the fact that Your van had a bucket on 
it, the CO could deny Your claim based on the fact that You chose to 
omit the information about the bucket on purpose, as You knew this would 
stop You from securing coverage?. While I do understand that securing 
the proper insurance is becoming expensive, maybe even out of hand?, I 
do not want to see You or any other small CO lose everything buy trying 
to cut corners and get around something by being dishonest?. Almost all 
insurance have something called Good faith agreements in them. This 
Good Faith agreement is based on upon the fact that both You and the 
insurance CO have been up front and honest with each other about what 
coverages You are receiving from the CO and what type of risk the CO is 
actually insuring. They fulfill their half by giving You a policy that 
specificly states what they will and will not pay for, and You fulfill 
Your responsibility by filling out the application with all of Your 
information so that the insurance CO can decide what to charge You based 
upon the information You provided them. If You lie, or as the politicly 
correct term used is Omit some vital information that would stop the 
CO from issuing insurance, then the contract is broken by You right up 
front, and this fact alone could cause You some grave financial harm if 
You employee tears down some fiber and/or phone lines. Just some food 
for thought.
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