Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
It's not actually a wire, it's a pipe. And the size of the pipe is bigger than the wavelength. This allows the signal to bounce around inside the cable. Basically creating multipath right in the wire. At least that's my understanding of it. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Mario Pommier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2007 11:19 AM Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Bob (or anyone), Can you explain why 7/8 heliax isn't appropriate for 5Ghz? Thanks for the posts. Mario Bob Moldashel wrote: OK.Lets talk cable 1. You can't use 1 1/4 or 1 5/8 heliax at 5 Ghz anything. Can't use 7/8 heliax there either. You canbut it won't work right 2. You can use 5/8 heliax at 5.8 Ghz and below. SNIP Bob -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure. Stick with Heliax (r) type cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is amazing at anything above 450 MHz. Look at any cell tower and you will see what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many more times that at 5.2 or 5.8 Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot, once installed properly. This brings you to the next obvious issue. Now for the lesson in RADIO. You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was. You may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at the car dealer down the street). So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible. Of course now that moves us to the next step. Can't get a high gain antenna because now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or the pattern is too narrow. On to the next step- More APs so you can cover the areas that your new high-gain antennas leave out. Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc. Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp. Create noise, Violate Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine. Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard way: Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job, weatherproof, lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt for in the first place! Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax? Looking to move radios to the bottom of towers. -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Thanks for the reminder. As with most of life, there is no one right answer. On towers over 100' or so, radios at the top and pay the climbers as needed. For shorter towers, which server smaller area anyway, I am looking at higher power, more sensitive radios at the bottom to offset the cable loss and reduce the need for climbers for repairs. Also, less climber time to install and when the time comes to add antennas. Yes, obviously not every site gets the same treatment. I do have one 100' tower with a SmartBridges Pro Outdoor at the bottom and 120' of LMR400 going to an omni that is getting exactly the coverage area I need and expected it to deliver. I have other locations that I can not afford to lose one bit of gain from what I have. I have new locations that, if I decide to put radios at the ground, will have coverage areas based on what is available from the radio/cable/antenna. Ralph wrote: You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure. Stick with Heliax (r) type cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is amazing at anything above 450 MHz. Look at any cell tower and you will see what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many more times that at 5.2 or 5.8 Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot, once installed properly. This brings you to the next obvious issue. Now for the lesson in RADIO. You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was. You may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at the car dealer down the street). So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible. Of course now that moves us to the next step. Can't get a high gain antenna because now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or the pattern is too narrow. On to the next step- More APs so you can cover the areas that your new high-gain antennas leave out. Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc. Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp. Create noise, Violate Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine. Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard way: Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job, weatherproof, lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt for in the first place! Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax? Looking to move radios to the bottom of towers. -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this. Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which can be had for $1.50/ft What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch heliax ? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ? Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but BS Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft 2.4ghz = 2dB 900mhz = 1.1dB Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft 5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss 2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss 900mhz = .8dB loss You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector. Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your radios at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive side. You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper AMP ! Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable / amp combos to go with. The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again ! Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule headed post :) JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure. Stick with Heliax (r) type cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is amazing at anything above 450 MHz. Look at any cell tower and you will see what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many more times that at 5.2 or 5.8 Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot, once installed properly. This brings you to the next obvious issue. Now for the lesson in RADIO. You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was. You may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at the car dealer down the street). So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible. Of course now that moves us to the next step. Can't get a high gain antenna because now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or the pattern is too narrow. On to the next step- More APs so you can cover the areas that your new high-gain antennas leave out. Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc. Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp. Create noise, Violate Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine. Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard way: Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job, weatherproof, lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt for in the first place! Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax? Looking to move radios to the bottom of towers. -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.12/724 - Release Date: 3/16/2007 12:12 PM -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
We use both methods, depending on how hard the location is to climb For locations that are easy to climb, we put the radio at the top. We've made our radios easy to feild swap on the tower. Four nuts, one N-connector and an outdoor cat5. This swaps everything except the antenna and coax. Static protection, grounding, electronics all swap out as a unit. For locations that are hard to climb, I use radio at bottom, amp and antenna at top. Started out using HyperLink amps, now use RF Linx. Over 7 years, I've had 2 amps fail, and 1 antenna and amp destroyed by a direct strike. In the direct strike, the amp saved the coax down the tower and all the radio gear below... And RF Linx replaced the amp under warranty. There is room for both methods and a wise engineer picks the appropriate one for the location. JohnnyO wrote: Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this. Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which can be had for $1.50/ft What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch heliax ? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ? Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but BS Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft 2.4ghz = 2dB 900mhz = 1.1dB Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft 5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss 2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss 900mhz = .8dB loss You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector. Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your radios at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive side. You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper AMP ! Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable / amp combos to go with. The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again ! Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule headed post :) JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure. Stick with Heliax (r) type cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is amazing at anything above 450 MHz. Look at any cell tower and you will see what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many more times that at 5.2 or 5.8 Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot, once installed properly. This brings you to the next obvious issue. Now for the lesson in RADIO. You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was. You may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at the car dealer down the street). So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible. Of course now that moves us to the next step. Can't get a high gain antenna because now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or the pattern is too narrow. On to the next step- More APs so you can cover the areas that your new high-gain antennas leave out. Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc. Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp. Create noise, Violate Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine. Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard way: Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job, weatherproof, lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt for in the first place! Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax? Looking to move radios to the bottom of towers. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Have not had to, yet. All my 5.8G stuff is on grain legs or water towers where I have easy access... Even in bad weather. George Rogato wrote: What about 5 gig Are you doing long runs and amps at 5gig? Blair Davis wrote: We use both methods, depending on how hard the location is to climb For locations that are easy to climb, we put the radio at the top. We've made our radios easy to feild swap on the tower. Four nuts, one N-connector and an outdoor cat5. This swaps everything except the antenna and coax. Static protection, grounding, electronics all swap out as a unit. For locations that are hard to climb, I use radio at bottom, amp and antenna at top. Started out using HyperLink amps, now use RF Linx. Over 7 years, I've had 2 amps fail, and 1 antenna and amp destroyed by a direct strike. In the direct strike, the amp saved the coax down the tower and all the radio gear below... And RF Linx replaced the amp under warranty. There is room for both methods and a wise engineer picks the appropriate one for the location. JohnnyO wrote: Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this. Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which can be had for $1.50/ft What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch heliax ? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ? Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but BS Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft 2.4ghz = 2dB 900mhz = 1.1dB Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft 5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss 2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss 900mhz = .8dB loss You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector. Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your radios at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive side. You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper AMP ! Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable / amp combos to go with. The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again ! Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule headed post :) JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure. Stick with Heliax (r) type cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is amazing at anything above 450 MHz. Look at any cell tower and you will see what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many more times that at 5.2 or 5.8 Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot, once installed properly. This brings you to the next obvious issue. Now for the lesson in RADIO. You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was. You may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at the car dealer down the street). So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible. Of course now that moves us to the next step. Can't get a high gain antenna because now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or the pattern is too narrow. On to the next step- More APs so you can cover the areas that your new high-gain antennas leave out. Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc. Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp. Create noise, Violate Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine. Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard way: Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job, weatherproof, lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt for in the first place! Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax? Looking to move radios to the bottom of towers. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
OK.Lets talk cable 1. You can't use 1 1/4 or 1 5/8 heliax at 5 Ghz anything. Can't use 7/8 heliax there either. You canbut it won't work right 2. You can use 5/8 heliax at 5.8 Ghz and below. 3. LMR900 is the largest Times cable you can use at 5.8Ghz. 4. You can use 1 1/4 Heliax at 2.4 without issue. 2.5 Ghz is the top limit for 1 5/8 Heliax. 5. 1 1/4 heliax and above needs REAL mounting hardware to secure it to the tower or structure. This means hanger brackets, hoisting grips, and ground kits made for heliax. Don't think you can tie a rope to it and pull it up or use tie wraps to secure it. It won't hold more than 100 feet or so vertically. 6. Heliax also means real connectors. 7. You can't lift several hundreds of feet of large heliax by hand (nor should you). You need a capstan/winch to do this right. 1 5/8 is about 1 lb per foot. 8. Connector attachment is more critical at 5 Ghz on heliax. We have seen connectors sweep like crap when it was thought they were installed correctly. 9. Do not use USED connectors. Always use new and follow the directions for attachment. 10. Personally I am not an LMR900 fan. We use 5/8 heliax at this point. 11. I am an LMR600 big fan. We use a poopload of this cable every month. 12. I use LMR400 for jumpers mostly 13. Losses are: 1 5/8 2.4 Ghz. 1.4dB 5Ghz. Do Not Use 1 1/4 2.4 Ghz.1.6dB 5Ghz Do Not Use 7/8 2.4 Ghz.2.3dB 5Ghz Do Not Use 5/8 2.4 Ghz.2.0dB 5Ghz. 4.3 dB 1/2 2.4 Ghz 3.9db 5GHz. 6.3dB LMR Cable loss is found on the Times web site. 14. You can't make quick right angle turns with 1 1/4 and above. 15. Heliax is very unforgiving if you kink it or fold it in half. If you fold it ya gotta cut it. Installed properly heliax will be the better choice for low loss especially on long runs (200'+) Bob -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
OK.Now for the lesson in CABLE :-P You can't use 1 5/8 heliax above 2.5 Ghz. Its not rated for it. And forget 5 Ghz. Won't work. 5/8 heliax MAX at 5 Ghz and above. -B- Ralph wrote: You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure. Stick with Heliax (r) type cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is amazing at anything above 450 MHz. Look at any cell tower and you will see what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many more times that at 5.2 or 5.8 Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot, once installed properly. This brings you to the next obvious issue. Now for the lesson in RADIO. You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was. You may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at the car dealer down the street). So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible. Of course now that moves us to the next step. Can't get a high gain antenna because now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or the pattern is too narrow. On to the next step- More APs so you can cover the areas that your new high-gain antennas leave out. Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc. Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp. Create noise, Violate Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine. Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard way: Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job, weatherproof, lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt for in the first place! Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax? Looking to move radios to the bottom of towers. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Great post, Bob. We use LMR600 quite often also for our 5.8Ghz installs, but I don't like to use it more than 50feet or so, which is about 4db of loss. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: Bob Moldashel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:15 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax OK.Lets talk cable 1. You can't use 1 1/4 or 1 5/8 heliax at 5 Ghz anything. Can't use 7/8 heliax there either. You canbut it won't work right 2. You can use 5/8 heliax at 5.8 Ghz and below. 3. LMR900 is the largest Times cable you can use at 5.8Ghz. 4. You can use 1 1/4 Heliax at 2.4 without issue. 2.5 Ghz is the top limit for 1 5/8 Heliax. 5. 1 1/4 heliax and above needs REAL mounting hardware to secure it to the tower or structure. This means hanger brackets, hoisting grips, and ground kits made for heliax. Don't think you can tie a rope to it and pull it up or use tie wraps to secure it. It won't hold more than 100 feet or so vertically. 6. Heliax also means real connectors. 7. You can't lift several hundreds of feet of large heliax by hand (nor should you). You need a capstan/winch to do this right. 1 5/8 is about 1 lb per foot. 8. Connector attachment is more critical at 5 Ghz on heliax. We have seen connectors sweep like crap when it was thought they were installed correctly. 9. Do not use USED connectors. Always use new and follow the directions for attachment. 10. Personally I am not an LMR900 fan. We use 5/8 heliax at this point. 11. I am an LMR600 big fan. We use a poopload of this cable every month. 12. I use LMR400 for jumpers mostly 13. Losses are: 1 5/8 2.4 Ghz. 1.4dB 5Ghz. Do Not Use 1 1/4 2.4 Ghz.1.6dB 5Ghz Do Not Use 7/8 2.4 Ghz.2.3dB 5Ghz Do Not Use 5/8 2.4 Ghz.2.0dB 5Ghz. 4.3 dB 1/2 2.4 Ghz 3.9db 5GHz. 6.3dB LMR Cable loss is found on the Times web site. 14. You can't make quick right angle turns with 1 1/4 and above. 15. Heliax is very unforgiving if you kink it or fold it in half. If you fold it ya gotta cut it. Installed properly heliax will be the better choice for low loss especially on long runs (200'+) Bob -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
If EVERYONE is misled, then EVERYONE needs a lesson in radio- especially you Jonny-O. My BS as you call it comes from over 30 years in 2 way and data radio and over 10 years in RF Engineering. But before you tell folks to leave radios on the ground, you'd better check your sources again. I'd love some of your $1.50 per foot 7/8 Heliax. 7/8 Heliax was $3.00 per foot 25 YEARS AGO! Back then, 1/2 Heliax was about $1.80 per ft. I'm surprised that the price hasn't changed that much since then, but I'll bet there's not as much copper in it. I know the center conductor is copper clad aluminum now. Maybe your $1.50 7/8 Heliax was the piece that got water in it and was discarded by the radio shop. For 900 MHz, 1/2 would possibly *adequate* but I would not recommend it at all. For 2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget anything less then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide. Heck- even XM Radio uses elliptical waveguide at their frequency of about 2.3 GHz for their terrestrial transmitters- and they have 100 watt power levels! I can send you a picture right now! Putting the radios at the antennas saves vast amounts of costs in feed line. Your tower owners are happier, and your rent might be cheaper. I know that we charge the other WISPs we rent space to much less because they use CAT5. The best use of $ for RF is to use antenna gain. You have nearly wasted that if you long feed lines of improper sizing. As far as justifying my statements- I don't really need to. Anyone can do the calculations, taking feed line and connector loss and subtracting it from antenna gain and radio power. The procedures and the numbers are there and speak for themselves. Andrew makes a spiffy calculator for this purpose and it is available, free, at http://www.andrew.com/downloads/ilcalc/default.aspx All of the following figures include a pair of Andrew N type male connectors. A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF4-50A (1/2) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 3.64 dB. That's over half of your power wasted. List price (cable only) is $1.56 per foot. The connectors are $20.00 - 45.00 each depending on material. A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF5-50A (7/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 2.1 List price (cable only) is $3.58 per foot. The connectors are $34.82 each A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF7-50A (1 5/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 1.28 dB List price (cable only) is $9.33 per foot. This cable is very heavy so figure in a lot of freight as well. The connectors are $153.22 each Now if you would like to use a very efficient feed line, you can use EW20-25 Elliptical waveguide, which is technically the correct cable for microwave frequencies like these. It will cost you $33.40 per foot. The connectors are only about $1570.00 each, but you will have onlt .45 dB of loss in 100 feet! Remember that these numbers are only for 2450 MHz. 5.2 and 5.8 loss is higher, but waveguide for that frequency is lots smaller and lighter and has only 1.35dB loss at 5200MHz. $23.5 per foot and only $500.00 per connector. I'm not going to justify my statements on amplifiers either. You can (and should) read Part 15 for yourself. Go try to get Teletronics to give you an FCC waiver, or go ask your AP manufacturer, assuming they are even building certified equipment. The problem I see with many of today's WISPs is that they are making up their own rules to suit themselves. Recently I saw a WISP post a recommendation to another WISP to set up a device to intentionally interfere with Wal-Mart's 900 MHz RFID systems. Nothing I say can stop or even sway any of you- that will have to come from someone with that kind of clout. Maybe a competitor who follows the rules will come into your market, or maybe you'll cause a problem with something licensed and you'll have a white Ford Explorer with a government tag and antennas hidden in the headliner pull up at your tower- but why would it even have to come to that. WISPS are taking technology that was designed for in-building LANS and doing remarkable things with it. A few years ago it was a pipe-dream to be able to do this stuff. Now we do it with off the shelf devices and do a damn good job. Let's just make sure we set the good example! (wow- I feel like Patrick) grin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JohnnyO Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:32 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Importance: High Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
As for AMPs If we put aside the fact that the AMP will result in a non-certified system Shiren (allrfcables.com) makes a real cool AMP. Its inexpensive, and tiny. Its got an outdoor Easy to mount inline with the cable model. It looks like a cylinder the diam of LMR600. I believe it comes in a 500mw and 1W model, I think. If you are doing long coax tower runs at 5.8Ghz, you may want to look into that AMP. With a slight mod, it can be used at 5.3Ghz or 5.8Ghz. (PS. remember 5.3 power limits, Amp only should be used to compensate for cable loss) I did a tour of his facility last month. What I like about Shiren's stuff is that its all made locally by him (full cycle from the design to the testing) using local electronic shops, at every phase. It allows him to maintain consistent Quality. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: JohnnyO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this. Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which can be had for $1.50/ft What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch heliax ? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ? Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but BS Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft 2.4ghz = 2dB 900mhz = 1.1dB Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft 5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss 2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss 900mhz = .8dB loss You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector. Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your radios at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive side. You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper AMP ! Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable / amp combos to go with. The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again ! Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule headed post :) JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure. Stick with Heliax (r) type cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is amazing at anything above 450 MHz. Look at any cell tower and you will see what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many more times that at 5.2 or 5.8 Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot, once installed properly. This brings you to the next obvious issue. Now for the lesson in RADIO. You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was. You may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at the car dealer down the street). So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible. Of course now that moves us to the next step. Can't get a high gain antenna because now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or the pattern is too narrow. On to the next step- More APs so you can cover the areas that your new high-gain antennas leave out. Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc. Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp. Create noise, Violate Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine. Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard way: Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job, weatherproof, lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt for in the first place! Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax? Looking to move radios to the bottom of towers. -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless
RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Ralph - for someone who has 30yrs of Experience in RF and 10yrs of RF Engineering you sure don't know much do you other then how to toot your own horn? Please give us ALL a lesson in radio Please give me the calculations of 150ft of LDF4-50A using a 250mw amplifier with a 17db RX gain.. and then compare this to a 250mw radio at the top of a tower (which by the way will exceed EIRP limits if going into an Omni) Your original posts to the group were and are misleading by saying that using heliax or LMR600 to go up to an antenna is the wrong way to do things. Therefore I call it B *cough cough* S JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:47 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax If EVERYONE is misled, then EVERYONE needs a lesson in radio- especially you Jonny-O. My BS as you call it comes from over 30 years in 2 way and data radio and over 10 years in RF Engineering. But before you tell folks to leave radios on the ground, you'd better check your sources again. I'd love some of your $1.50 per foot 7/8 Heliax. 7/8 Heliax was $3.00 per foot 25 YEARS AGO! Back then, 1/2 Heliax was about $1.80 per ft. I'm surprised that the price hasn't changed that much since then, but I'll bet there's not as much copper in it. I know the center conductor is copper clad aluminum now. Maybe your $1.50 7/8 Heliax was the piece that got water in it and was discarded by the radio shop. For 900 MHz, 1/2 would possibly *adequate* but I would not recommend it at all. For 2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget anything less then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide. Heck- even XM Radio uses elliptical waveguide at their frequency of about 2.3 GHz for their terrestrial transmitters- and they have 100 watt power levels! I can send you a picture right now! Putting the radios at the antennas saves vast amounts of costs in feed line. Your tower owners are happier, and your rent might be cheaper. I know that we charge the other WISPs we rent space to much less because they use CAT5. The best use of $ for RF is to use antenna gain. You have nearly wasted that if you long feed lines of improper sizing. As far as justifying my statements- I don't really need to. Anyone can do the calculations, taking feed line and connector loss and subtracting it from antenna gain and radio power. The procedures and the numbers are there and speak for themselves. Andrew makes a spiffy calculator for this purpose and it is available, free, at http://www.andrew.com/downloads/ilcalc/default.aspx All of the following figures include a pair of Andrew N type male connectors. A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF4-50A (1/2) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 3.64 dB. That's over half of your power wasted. List price (cable only) is $1.56 per foot. The connectors are $20.00 - 45.00 each depending on material. A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF5-50A (7/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 2.1 List price (cable only) is $3.58 per foot. The connectors are $34.82 each A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF7-50A (1 5/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 1.28 dB List price (cable only) is $9.33 per foot. This cable is very heavy so figure in a lot of freight as well. The connectors are $153.22 each Now if you would like to use a very efficient feed line, you can use EW20-25 Elliptical waveguide, which is technically the correct cable for microwave frequencies like these. It will cost you $33.40 per foot. The connectors are only about $1570.00 each, but you will have onlt .45 dB of loss in 100 feet! Remember that these numbers are only for 2450 MHz. 5.2 and 5.8 loss is higher, but waveguide for that frequency is lots smaller and lighter and has only 1.35dB loss at 5200MHz. $23.5 per foot and only $500.00 per connector. I'm not going to justify my statements on amplifiers either. You can (and should) read Part 15 for yourself. Go try to get Teletronics to give you an FCC waiver, or go ask your AP manufacturer, assuming they are even building certified equipment. The problem I see with many of today's WISPs is that they are making up their own rules to suit themselves. Recently I saw a WISP post a recommendation to another WISP to set up a device to intentionally interfere with Wal-Mart's 900 MHz RFID systems. Nothing I say can stop or even sway any of you- that will have to come from someone with that kind of clout. Maybe a competitor who follows the rules will come into your market, or maybe you'll cause a problem with something licensed and you'll have a white Ford Explorer with a government tag and antennas hidden in the headliner pull up at your tower- but why would it even have to come to that. WISPS are taking technology that was designed for in-building LANS and doing remarkable things with it. A few years ago it was a pipe-dream to be able to do this stuff. Now we do
RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
In an earlier post - Ralph stated 1 cubic yard of cement 60 ft high. 1 vertical antenna No guys. Even stronger with a house bracket. I've put up many like this. This is the same guy that is wanting to give us radio lessons I certainly wouldn't hire him for any tower installs, due to the fact that he is doing unsafe construction methods on towers... Regards, JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:47 PM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax If EVERYONE is misled, then EVERYONE needs a lesson in radio- especially you Jonny-O. My BS as you call it comes from over 30 years in 2 way and data radio and over 10 years in RF Engineering. But before you tell folks to leave radios on the ground, you'd better check your sources again. I'd love some of your $1.50 per foot 7/8 Heliax. 7/8 Heliax was $3.00 per foot 25 YEARS AGO! Back then, 1/2 Heliax was about $1.80 per ft. I'm surprised that the price hasn't changed that much since then, but I'll bet there's not as much copper in it. I know the center conductor is copper clad aluminum now. Maybe your $1.50 7/8 Heliax was the piece that got water in it and was discarded by the radio shop. For 900 MHz, 1/2 would possibly *adequate* but I would not recommend it at all. For 2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget anything less then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide. Heck- even XM Radio uses elliptical waveguide at their frequency of about 2.3 GHz for their terrestrial transmitters- and they have 100 watt power levels! I can send you a picture right now! Putting the radios at the antennas saves vast amounts of costs in feed line. Your tower owners are happier, and your rent might be cheaper. I know that we charge the other WISPs we rent space to much less because they use CAT5. The best use of $ for RF is to use antenna gain. You have nearly wasted that if you long feed lines of improper sizing. As far as justifying my statements- I don't really need to. Anyone can do the calculations, taking feed line and connector loss and subtracting it from antenna gain and radio power. The procedures and the numbers are there and speak for themselves. Andrew makes a spiffy calculator for this purpose and it is available, free, at http://www.andrew.com/downloads/ilcalc/default.aspx All of the following figures include a pair of Andrew N type male connectors. A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF4-50A (1/2) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 3.64 dB. That's over half of your power wasted. List price (cable only) is $1.56 per foot. The connectors are $20.00 - 45.00 each depending on material. A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF5-50A (7/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 2.1 List price (cable only) is $3.58 per foot. The connectors are $34.82 each A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF7-50A (1 5/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 1.28 dB List price (cable only) is $9.33 per foot. This cable is very heavy so figure in a lot of freight as well. The connectors are $153.22 each Now if you would like to use a very efficient feed line, you can use EW20-25 Elliptical waveguide, which is technically the correct cable for microwave frequencies like these. It will cost you $33.40 per foot. The connectors are only about $1570.00 each, but you will have onlt .45 dB of loss in 100 feet! Remember that these numbers are only for 2450 MHz. 5.2 and 5.8 loss is higher, but waveguide for that frequency is lots smaller and lighter and has only 1.35dB loss at 5200MHz. $23.5 per foot and only $500.00 per connector. I'm not going to justify my statements on amplifiers either. You can (and should) read Part 15 for yourself. Go try to get Teletronics to give you an FCC waiver, or go ask your AP manufacturer, assuming they are even building certified equipment. The problem I see with many of today's WISPs is that they are making up their own rules to suit themselves. Recently I saw a WISP post a recommendation to another WISP to set up a device to intentionally interfere with Wal-Mart's 900 MHz RFID systems. Nothing I say can stop or even sway any of you- that will have to come from someone with that kind of clout. Maybe a competitor who follows the rules will come into your market, or maybe you'll cause a problem with something licensed and you'll have a white Ford Explorer with a government tag and antennas hidden in the headliner pull up at your tower- but why would it even have to come to that. WISPS are taking technology that was designed for in-building LANS and doing remarkable things with it. A few years ago it was a pipe-dream to be able to do this stuff. Now we do it with off the shelf devices and do a damn good job. Let's just make sure we set the good example! (wow- I feel like Patrick) grin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JohnnyO Sent: Saturday
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Not all amps are illegal guys. Sheesh. Yes they have to be included in the system certification and can't be mix and matched like antennas. But that doesn't make them illegal! marlon - Original Message - From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 3:04 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax As for AMPs If we put aside the fact that the AMP will result in a non-certified system Shiren (allrfcables.com) makes a real cool AMP. Its inexpensive, and tiny. Its got an outdoor Easy to mount inline with the cable model. It looks like a cylinder the diam of LMR600. I believe it comes in a 500mw and 1W model, I think. If you are doing long coax tower runs at 5.8Ghz, you may want to look into that AMP. With a slight mod, it can be used at 5.3Ghz or 5.8Ghz. (PS. remember 5.3 power limits, Amp only should be used to compensate for cable loss) I did a tour of his facility last month. What I like about Shiren's stuff is that its all made locally by him (full cycle from the design to the testing) using local electronic shops, at every phase. It allows him to maintain consistent Quality. Tom DeReggi RapidDSL Wireless, Inc IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband - Original Message - From: JohnnyO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:31 AM Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this. Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which can be had for $1.50/ft What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch heliax ? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ? Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but BS Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft 2.4ghz = 2dB 900mhz = 1.1dB Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft 5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss 2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss 900mhz = .8dB loss You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector. Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your radios at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive side. You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper AMP ! Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable / amp combos to go with. The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again ! Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule headed post :) JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure. Stick with Heliax (r) type cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is amazing at anything above 450 MHz. Look at any cell tower and you will see what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many more times that at 5.2 or 5.8 Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot, once installed properly. This brings you to the next obvious issue. Now for the lesson in RADIO. You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was. You may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at the car dealer down the street). So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible. Of course now that moves us to the next step. Can't get a high gain antenna because now the tower company wants more rent, or the wind load is too high, or the pattern is too narrow. On to the next step- More APs so you can cover the areas that your new high-gain antennas leave out. Then, more hard line, then more $$$ etc. Or you can take the illegal, easy way out. Buy Amp. Create noise, Violate Part 15 and your radio's certification. Leave yourself open for a fine. Sounds to me that you are better off doing what most discovered the hard way: Leave the radios up top, do a great installation job, weatherproof, lightning protect, and enjoy the power you paid so dearly per milliwatt for in the first place! Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed Sent: Friday, March 16, 2007 6:05 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables
RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
100% Correct, Marlon. It doesn't make the amp illegal- just using it on Part 15 stuff that it isn't certified for. I don't know first hand that this is so, but I believe it was on this list a couple of years ago that one of the Tranzeo products had an RFLinx Amplifier inside. If so, I'd be willing to bet that it was also properly certified within the system, so you are correct. Many of the amps I have seen are very nicely designed, AGC, POE, Programmable, Nice boxes and nicely priced. If I were outside the US I might even use them in the WISP, after verifying that they were spectrally pure. I have used some of the RFLinx amps for Ham projects and Amateur Television and I was impressed with their value about 4 years ago when everything else (YDI-HyperLink) were so expensive. I'm ignoring Johnny's trolls now from now on because name-calling and the other bashing he has resorted to is just downright immature. I'll just go back to following FCC rules and hanging off my Rohn-Spec designed 60 ft free stander. Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Not all amps are illegal guys. Sheesh. Yes they have to be included in the system certification and can't be mix and matched like antennas. But that doesn't make them illegal! marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Gents! If someone makes a post that has incorrect information, please correct them! BUT, you loose credibility when you begin personal attacks and everyone on this list looses! We are adults here - and adults should be able to have civilized discussion without resorting to name calling. Debate someone but dont degrade someone! STICK TO THE FACTS OF THE SUBJECT! My .02...Thanks! -RickG On 3/17/07, Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 100% Correct, Marlon. It doesn't make the amp illegal- just using it on Part 15 stuff that it isn't certified for. I don't know first hand that this is so, but I believe it was on this list a couple of years ago that one of the Tranzeo products had an RFLinx Amplifier inside. If so, I'd be willing to bet that it was also properly certified within the system, so you are correct. Many of the amps I have seen are very nicely designed, AGC, POE, Programmable, Nice boxes and nicely priced. If I were outside the US I might even use them in the WISP, after verifying that they were spectrally pure. I have used some of the RFLinx amps for Ham projects and Amateur Television and I was impressed with their value about 4 years ago when everything else (YDI-HyperLink) were so expensive. I'm ignoring Johnny's trolls now from now on because name-calling and the other bashing he has resorted to is just downright immature. I'll just go back to following FCC rules and hanging off my Rohn-Spec designed 60 ft free stander. Ralph -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 5:46 PM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Not all amps are illegal guys. Sheesh. Yes they have to be included in the system certification and can't be mix and matched like antennas. But that doesn't make them illegal! marlon -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
the enforcement division was always riding around in some ratty pool car. And he was lucky if the radio and air conditioning worked...The guys in the Atlanta field office must be spoiled Personally if 3-5 dB of cable loss is going to make or break your system you need to re-engineer it. While it is great to have zero dB of loss it is not always practicle. As such, system where climbers are not readilly available or where weather dictates access to your equipment then cable loss is a reality and the system should be designed to accomodate those losses. I am sure you took the time to research your pricing and attenuation factors that you outline above but to me, you shoot all credibility when you tell people they can use 1 5/8 at 5 Ghz. You need to do just a little more research... Not bashing here.Just my opinion Gotta take a nap now.I'm tired from all this typing today.. -B- WISPS are taking technology that was designed for in-building LANS and doing remarkable things with it. A few years ago it was a pipe-dream to be able to do this stuff. Now we do it with off the shelf devices and do a damn good job. Let's just make sure we set the good example! (wow- I feel like Patrick) grin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JohnnyO Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:32 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Importance: High Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
- but why would it even have to come to that. Wow.Every guy I ever dealt with from the enforcement division was always riding around in some ratty pool car. And he was lucky if the radio and air conditioning worked...The guys in the Atlanta field office must be spoiled Personally if 3-5 dB of cable loss is going to make or break your system you need to re-engineer it. While it is great to have zero dB of loss it is not always practicle. As such, system where climbers are not readilly available or where weather dictates access to your equipment then cable loss is a reality and the system should be designed to accomodate those losses. I am sure you took the time to research your pricing and attenuation factors that you outline above but to me, you shoot all credibility when you tell people they can use 1 5/8 at 5 Ghz. You need to do just a little more research... Not bashing here.Just my opinion Gotta take a nap now.I'm tired from all this typing today.. -B- WISPS are taking technology that was designed for in-building LANS and doing remarkable things with it. A few years ago it was a pipe-dream to be able to do this stuff. Now we do it with off the shelf devices and do a damn good job. Let's just make sure we set the good example! (wow- I feel like Patrick) grin -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JohnnyO Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:32 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Importance: High Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
I've tried to stay out of this but I can't. grin I was in the meeting with Bob. He's right. As for how much cable loss is ok, that's a per link issue. You have to run your link budgets. It might be BETTER to have 12dB of coax loss in certain situations. Hell, I've paid money to drop dB from a link budget (attenuators). If it weren't for the new kids on this block these threads where people try to toss out absolutes all of the time would be funny! I have around 25 towers up now or very nearly up. No two are alike. Each customer base is different. The ranges needed from each system are different. It's all about the local rf environment and the link budgets needed. Ralph, so far most of what I see you suggestion would end up breaking the bank of the people here. In fact most everyone in the broadband industry. Robert Pepper, formerly of the fcc, had a number once. Wish I could remember it. These aren't exact but it's very close. The ISP gets about $.25 per megabit delivered. Or some other such measurement, can't remember the specifics. I do remember that the isp gets $.25 and the cell companies get $20 for the same amount of data transferred. No that wasn't a typo. That's why I remember the numbers, it was shocking. If I GROSS $1000 per month from some of my towers I'm happy. Can't put in $10,000 worth of crap and ever get my money out. laters, marlon - Original Message - From: Bob Moldashel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:06 PM Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Inline Ralph wrote: If EVERYONE is misled, then EVERYONE needs a lesson in radio- especially you Jonny-O. My BS as you call it comes from over 30 years in 2 way and data radio and over 10 years in RF Engineering. But before you tell folks to leave radios on the ground, you'd better check your sources again. I'd love some of your $1.50 per foot 7/8 Heliax. 7/8 Heliax was $3.00 per foot 25 YEARS AGO! Back then, 1/2 Heliax was about $1.80 per ft. There is a ton of this on the market. We are presently buying 7/8 x 1000' rolls from many other cell site construction companies at about $1 foot. I presently have a source for 6K feet and I am sure I could find a poop load more in 48 hours. I'm surprised that the price hasn't changed that much since then, but I'll bet there's not as much copper in it. I know the center conductor is copper clad aluminum now. Maybe your $1.50 7/8 Heliax was the piece that got water in it and was discarded by the radio shop. See above.. For 900 MHz, 1/2 would possibly *adequate* but I would not recommend it at all. For 2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget anything less then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide. Please research your statement. You cannot use 1 5/8 Heliax for 5Ghz anything. Heck- even XM Radio uses elliptical waveguide at their frequency of about 2.3 GHz for their terrestrial transmitters- and they have 100 watt power levels! I can send you a picture right now! Putting the radios at the antennas saves vast amounts of costs in feed line. Your tower owners are happier, and your rent might be cheaper. I know that we charge the other WISPs we rent space to much less because they use CAT5. The best use of $ for RF is to use antenna gain. You have nearly wasted that if you long feed lines of improper sizing. As far as justifying my statements- I don't really need to. Anyone can do the calculations, taking feed line and connector loss and subtracting it from antenna gain and radio power. The procedures and the numbers are there and speak for themselves. Andrew makes a spiffy calculator for this purpose and it is available, free, at http://www.andrew.com/downloads/ilcalc/default.aspx All of the following figures include a pair of Andrew N type male connectors. A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF4-50A (1/2) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 3.64 dB. That's over half of your power wasted. List price (cable only) is $1.56 per foot. The connectors are $20.00 - 45.00 each depending on material. A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF5-50A (7/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 2.1 List price (cable only) is $3.58 per foot. The connectors are $34.82 each A 100 foot long piece of Andrew LDF7-50A (1 5/8) at 2450 MHz has a loss of 1.28 dB List price (cable only) is $9.33 per foot. This cable is very heavy so figure in a lot of freight as well. The connectors are $153.22 each Now if you would like to use a very efficient feed line, you can use EW20-25 Elliptical waveguide, which is technically the correct cable for microwave frequencies like these. It will cost you $33.40 per foot. The connectors are only about $1570.00 each, but you will have onlt .45 dB of loss in 100 feet! Remember that these numbers are only for 2450 MHz. 5.2 and 5.8 loss is higher, but waveguide for that frequency is lots
RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Dear list, I have not seen anyone comment on the principle of coax cutoff frequency and how it can impact the decision to use one size of cable over another. Some of our customers have run into this problem. The problem of not being able to install the tower electronics right next to the intentional radiator. It is not our preferred installation method but it does happen. The Cutoff Frequency of the coax is an equally important consideration in addition to loss and physical characteristics. The outer diameter of a coax cable is (roughly) inversely proportional to the cutoff frequency. If the physical 1/2 wavelength of the carrier is SMALLER than the diameter of the coax then problems will ensue. When the size of the coax is large enough that more than one RF path exists, the frequency is above cutoff frequency, and cable attenuation is very high, and return loss is very high. If multiple modes with different phase velocities propagate within a span of coax, interference can occur within the medium itself. In RF cable, the best operation occurs when only one path for the RF exists. Eric Albert Application Engineer Alvarion, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax What about 5 gig Are you doing long runs and amps at 5gig? Blair Davis wrote: We use both methods, depending on how hard the location is to climb For locations that are easy to climb, we put the radio at the top. We've made our radios easy to feild swap on the tower. Four nuts, one N-connector and an outdoor cat5. This swaps everything except the antenna and coax. Static protection, grounding, electronics all swap out as a unit. For locations that are hard to climb, I use radio at bottom, amp and antenna at top. Started out using HyperLink amps, now use RF Linx. Over 7 years, I've had 2 amps fail, and 1 antenna and amp destroyed by a direct strike. In the direct strike, the amp saved the coax down the tower and all the radio gear below... And RF Linx replaced the amp under warranty. There is room for both methods and a wise engineer picks the appropriate one for the location. JohnnyO wrote: Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this. Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which can be had for $1.50/ft What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch heliax ? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ? Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but BS Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft 2.4ghz = 2dB 900mhz = 1.1dB Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft 5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss 2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss 900mhz = .8dB loss You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector. Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your radios at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive side. You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper AMP ! Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable / amp combos to go with. The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again ! Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule headed post :) JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure. Stick with Heliax (r) type cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is amazing at anything above 450 MHz. Look at any cell tower and you will see what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many more times that at 5.2 or 5.8 Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot, once installed properly. This brings you to the next obvious issue. Now for the lesson in RADIO. You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was. You may even totally offset the antenna gain and be upside down (as they say at the car dealer down the street). So go buy the best antenna you can, with the most gain possible. Of course now that moves us to the next step. Can't get a high gain antenna
RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Sorry I am not quoting inline- it was getting a bit cluttered. Good points, Bob. The brand new cell tower surplus isn't that readily available here. Oh I see it... cut into 20 ft lengths at the recycling place. Saw some elliptical waveguide there last week. Made me sick, but I couldn't have afforded the connectors. The 7/8 comes in handy when putting up a VHF or UHF commercial repeater, though. And I forgot... a cell company did give me a leftover spool end a couple of years ago. It had enough runs in it to go up 3 of my 100 ft towers. They don't have guys either, but they do have a lot more than 1 yard of concrete and they have another way that they are held up. See if you can guess what that is. (Matt Liotta is disqualified. He has seen them). Regarding the 5.8, my statement said: 2.4 GHz, you might consider 7/8, but for 5.8, better forget anything less then 1 5/8, but most real users use waveguide. You're right about the cutoff frequency. I misread the chart where it said the cutoff was 8.8 GHz. That was a 7/8 size. I had set the program to show me both Heliax and waveguide and there were just too many rows of data. However, I actually recommended waveguide. A friend of mine took pictures of the XM installation at one of our sites. You can see a bit of the black waveguide and all of one of the connectors at: http://www.jawga.com/xm/xmwaveguide.jpg Their cabinet is at: http://www.jawga.com/xm/xmrack.jpg I never meant to imply that anyone could issue a waiver- especially any manufacturer. I was saying that in a rots o ruck type fashion. Yes, the vehicle I have seen locally is an Explorer (or similar SUV). The former vehicle was a ragged out old station wagon that reminded me of an Olds Vista Cruiser. As Marlon said- my ideal solutions would probably break the bank for any WISP (except maybe Clearwire) but I was merely arguing for leaving the radios on the tower for the absolute best efficiency. Ralph -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
I thought that there was some formula like that out there. Thanks for posting it!! marlon - Original Message - From: Eric Albert [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:10 PM Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax Dear list, I have not seen anyone comment on the principle of coax cutoff frequency and how it can impact the decision to use one size of cable over another. Some of our customers have run into this problem. The problem of not being able to install the tower electronics right next to the intentional radiator. It is not our preferred installation method but it does happen. The Cutoff Frequency of the coax is an equally important consideration in addition to loss and physical characteristics. The outer diameter of a coax cable is (roughly) inversely proportional to the cutoff frequency. If the physical 1/2 wavelength of the carrier is SMALLER than the diameter of the coax then problems will ensue. When the size of the coax is large enough that more than one RF path exists, the frequency is above cutoff frequency, and cable attenuation is very high, and return loss is very high. If multiple modes with different phase velocities propagate within a span of coax, interference can occur within the medium itself. In RF cable, the best operation occurs when only one path for the RF exists. Eric Albert Application Engineer Alvarion, Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of George Rogato Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 11:56 AM To: WISPA General List Subject: Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax What about 5 gig Are you doing long runs and amps at 5gig? Blair Davis wrote: We use both methods, depending on how hard the location is to climb For locations that are easy to climb, we put the radio at the top. We've made our radios easy to feild swap on the tower. Four nuts, one N-connector and an outdoor cat5. This swaps everything except the antenna and coax. Static protection, grounding, electronics all swap out as a unit. For locations that are hard to climb, I use radio at bottom, amp and antenna at top. Started out using HyperLink amps, now use RF Linx. Over 7 years, I've had 2 amps fail, and 1 antenna and amp destroyed by a direct strike. In the direct strike, the amp saved the coax down the tower and all the radio gear below... And RF Linx replaced the amp under warranty. There is room for both methods and a wise engineer picks the appropriate one for the location. JohnnyO wrote: Jeez Ralph - your post is misleading to EVERYONE that is reading this. Do you know what loss per 100ft is on 7/8inch heliax on 2.4ghz which can be had for $1.50/ft What is your loss at 900mhz on 7/8thinch heliax ? How about lost per 100ft at 5.8ghz on 1 1/4inch heliax ? Scott - here is the following specs for your loss you'll expect... By all means - if you can afford to leave your radios at the bottom of the tower - DO SO ! and ignore posts like Ralphs which are nothing but BS Loss on 7/8th Heliax per 100ft 2.4ghz = 2dB 900mhz = 1.1dB Loss on 1 1/4 Heliax per 100ft 5.8ghz = 2.2dB loss 2.4ghz = 1.5dB loss 900mhz = .8dB loss You'll need to add .5dB of loss per connector. Putting your radios at the bottom and using some 250mw Teletronics AMPS will give you a much better system then if you were to leave your radios at the top because your AP will also see a 17dB gain on the receive side. You will not be creating noise, interference if you use the proper AMP ! Scott - contact me offlist if you need some help deciding what cable / amp combos to go with. The nice thing about running cable up your towers is - once you weatherproof your antenna and install the proper grounding straps along the run, you will more then likely never have to climb that tower again ! Ralph - please enlighten us with the reasons you've stated EVERYTHING you did Opinions are one thing, but false information is completely different and the only reason JohnnyO decided to take on this mule headed post :) JohnnyO -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ralph Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2007 8:38 AM To: 'WISPA General List' Subject: RE: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax You can buy them at Tessco, I'm pretty sure. Stick with Heliax (r) type cables (hard line) for those distances, and use 1 5/8 minimum. The loss is amazing at anything above 450 MHz. Look at any cell tower and you will see what you need to use, then count on twice the loss if you use 2.4 or many more times that at 5.2 or 5.8 Look at a price range of tens of $ a foot, once installed properly. This brings you to the next obvious issue. Now for the lesson in RADIO. You have degraded your system so much by adding loss, you can figure that your antenna just magically became 0 dB gain instead of what it was. You may even totally offset
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Smart move!!! When at all possible, we do that: active elements inside, inactive antenna outside. Design your grounding properly (NOT A MINOR ACHIEVEMENT!!!) and you're set: EVERYTHING goes to 1 common ground, coax lightning kits (outdoors) and in line lightning arrestors (indoors) go to different grounding blocks. Have a problem, check out the radio indoors. We even do this with outdoor-rated radios, specially for backhaul AccessUnits and RemoteBridges. Cell companies do it this way because it's less prone to issues and they have the money to pay for it. In this case, the cost is worth it if you ask me. On WaterTanks we've set up an outdoor, temp controlled weatherproof box (engineered in house with DC-powered fans and battery backup at the base) to house the outdoor units. I should send you pictures. Mario Scott Reed wrote: Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax? Looking to move radios to the bottom of towers. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
Yep, that is where I want head. Where do you get your cables? Mario Pommier wrote: Smart move!!! When at all possible, we do that: active elements inside, inactive antenna outside. Design your grounding properly (NOT A MINOR ACHIEVEMENT!!!) and you're set: EVERYTHING goes to 1 common ground, coax lightning kits (outdoors) and in line lightning arrestors (indoors) go to different grounding blocks. Have a problem, check out the radio indoors. We even do this with outdoor-rated radios, specially for backhaul AccessUnits and RemoteBridges. Cell companies do it this way because it's less prone to issues and they have the money to pay for it. In this case, the cost is worth it if you ask me. On WaterTanks we've set up an outdoor, temp controlled weatherproof box (engineered in house with DC-powered fans and battery backup at the base) to house the outdoor units. I should send you pictures. Mario Scott Reed wrote: Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax? Looking to move radios to the bottom of towers. -- Scott Reed Owner NewWays Wireless Networking Network Design, Installation and Administration www.nwwnet.net -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
Re: [WISPA] LMR600, LMR900, Heliax
I'm sure you've already checked all the numbers, but even with LMR900 at 5.8ghz there can be a great deal of loss: LMR-600 going 100ft at 5.8ghz = 8db of loss LMR-900 going 100ft at 5.8ghz = 6db of loss We have switched some of our backhaul links to this same setup (radio inside, LMR-400 cable up the tower) but we don't ever go over 50ft... and that's still about 5db of loss. It's hard to give up those db, but sometimes well worth it. :) Travis Microserv Scott Reed wrote: Yep, that is where I want head. Where do you get your cables? Mario Pommier wrote: Smart move!!! When at all possible, we do that: active elements inside, inactive antenna outside. Design your grounding properly (NOT A MINOR ACHIEVEMENT!!!) and you're set: EVERYTHING goes to 1 common ground, coax lightning kits (outdoors) and in line lightning arrestors (indoors) go to different grounding blocks. Have a problem, check out the radio indoors. We even do this with outdoor-rated radios, specially for backhaul AccessUnits and RemoteBridges. Cell companies do it this way because it's less prone to issues and they have the money to pay for it. In this case, the cost is worth it if you ask me. On WaterTanks we've set up an outdoor, temp controlled weatherproof box (engineered in house with DC-powered fans and battery backup at the base) to house the outdoor units. I should send you pictures. Mario Scott Reed wrote: Who supplies pre-terminated (N connectors) cables in the 70 to 150' range using LMR 600, LMR900 and/or Heliax? Looking to move radios to the bottom of towers. -- WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
