Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-16 Thread Clint Ricker
Allen,
So it is just a matter of switching interfaces to a second interface
when the best interface goes down (if ever).  OSPF is pretty good at
that.  Not arguing, just curious about all that. 

To a large degree, you are right with your observations.  If you
engineer very good point to point links, then there is little
advantage to using something more than OSPF.  The main advantage to
using something else is if you, for whatever reasons (a few
legitimate, a few not legitimate) engineer your links knowing that
you'll have at least some degregation (ie packet loss).

_IF_ you engineer the network to deliver 0% packetloss 99.9% (or
99.99% or whatever) on all of your links, then there really is not
much advantage to using something other than OSPF.  Generally in such
environments (not always, but still, generally), then any link
problems would be an up/down scenario--failed AP, whatever, and OSPF
would provide just as good of re-routing as anything else...

Let's look, though, at the less than 100% scenario with some example
numbers.  If you engineer your network to deliver 0% packetloss 98% of
the time and decide to tolerate 5% packetloss the other two percentage
of the time, then using OSPF, 2% of the time, is just as likely to
send traffic down the pipe that has 5% packet loss when a perfectly
good pipe with 0% packet loss was available...

The feature is that OLSR (or Meraki, or whatever) switches when the
link is up, but experiencing some packet loss.  You are right on,
though, that if you do really good wireless engineering, this doesn't
provide that much of a benefit.  And, to restate a little bit, if you
are going to the expense of getting sector antennas and aiming and so
forth, then you are likely going to engineer a clean path, so, yes,
the advantage of using Meraki's + directionals is, at least from a
network traffic standpoint, fairly moot, or actually a detriment,
since you can't really tune the wireless settings on Merakis without a
lot of trouble.  (Cost / relatively turnkey management, perhaps may be
attractive to some still).

I tend to think the Meraki's are mostly interesting in environments
where it is either impracticle or economically unfeasable to engineer
each and every wireless link--think entry-level residential MDU
settings, where your $20-$30 per month can't cover sending an engineer
out to each unit, ensuring good wireless shots, etc..., etc..   Their
answer, for better or worse, is just throw enough units in there that
can more or less sort the mess out for themselves.

Clint Ricker
-Kentnis Technologies

























 Please follow my train of thought for a second.  When using
 directional antennas, then a bit of aiming is required right?.  But
 the benefits are as you say.  Now such antennas need to be mounted
 right?  So this is a fixed wireless mesh we are talking here, not a
 mobile mesh with antennas in motion. What makes this possible is
 multiple radio systems (3, 4, even 5 radios).  So given all this,
 how would Meraki provide anything that say Mikrotik couldn't
 do?  Choose paths?  There isn't much to choose when using directional
 antennas on each end (PtP)  You know what's there already, one radio,
 the other end of the link.  So it is just a matter of switching
 interfaces to a second interface when the best interface goes down
 (if ever).  OSPF is pretty good at that.  Not arguing, just curious
 about all that.  Also I'm brainstorming possible configurations with
 an omni on one end and a directional on the other.  I need a couple
 of good cheap directional 900MHz antennas for some testing.  I have
 two omni's already and wasn't too impressed going omni to
 omni.  Signal started to drop off after about a quarter mile  or so,
 and that isn't going to cut it.

 Allen

 

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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-16 Thread Clint Ricker
Chris,
I'd imagine they would work fine, but keep in mind that you have about
0% control over the wireless settings beyond channels (for all
practicle purposes)..  In my mind, if you are going to engineer a
link, getting something that will give you really good control over
the link engineering is desirable.

The Meraki's are designed, in the end, to be used in environments
where you do little to no link engineering.

Clint Ricker
-Kentnis Technologies



On 9/15/07, chris cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Id be interested to see how they worked with high gain directional
 antennas.  With the proper antennas you could pick up some penetration,
 help pick through noise and change polarities.  Anybody used the Meraki
 boxes this way?

 Chris

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:08 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

 Well, I disagree, in a hippocritical way..

 What Meraki has done is package and make it painlessly easy and low cost
 for
 any joker in town to spend $100 a house and destroy the RF environement
 accross town, with noise generating Omnis, without a clue on the
 engineering
 that needs to go behind it.
 The good news about the other common Mesh Boxes that were $4000 a shot
 (Moto, Tropo, etc) is it kept the MESH boxes in the hand of
 professionals
 (if you call Muni network guys- Professionals?)  Ventures like Meraki,
 scare
 the pants off me, regarding the health of this industry.
 Locust MEsh on the other hand, is Open Source Software designed to
 empower
 developers to go to work to make MESH gear. Sure its OPEN, but the
 klearning
 curve is still there, detering individuals that did not have atleast a
 certain level of minimal technical competence.

 With that said, I'll have to Buy and Try some of those Meraki's, I see
 all
 sorts of applications for them, that have now become affordable to try
 :-)
 Could possibly save me tons of money.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Steve Stroh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 6:44 PM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?


  Carl:
 
  Thanks :-) I rest my case.
 
  Steve
 
  On 9/14/07, Carl Shivers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  We are using Meraki at a local ballpark, the zoo and a river walk
 area.
  The
  ballpark has 1 gw node and 4 mesh nodes. The zoo has 1 gw and 1 mesh
  node.
  The river walk area presently has 2 gw nodes and 8 mesh nodes. This
 will
  be
  expanded to 3 gw nodes and 17 mesh nodes.
 
  It is very easy to deploy using the Meraki system dashboard.
 
  P.S. I am not a Meraki sales person.
 
  --
  Steve Stroh
  Editor / Analyst, Stroh Publications LLC
  425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com
 
 
 
 
  ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007
 at
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  ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
  ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-16 Thread Tom DeReggi

I was talking about OSPF. I recognize OLSR solves the problem.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 9:08 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?



Tom DeReggi wrote:

... How does the radio know which of the two links failed?


Not sure if you know tog, cw's son, but here's his wiki and helping hand 
concerning OLSR


http://staros.tog.net/wiki/OLSR


I think OLSR is getting more prominent among some wisps.

If your a wisp who bridges, it's no concern. But if your doing routed 
wireless networks, then OLSR may possibly be a replacement for OSPF.
I'm not the network admin, or any kind of admin, but we run ospf on our 
bsd routers and I recently seen where ospf failed, till we rebooted a box.



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RE: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Drew Lentz
The problem with OLSR, and it is even stated on the Wikipedia page, is that
when you push routing tables to every device, it creates a load on the
system. If you have a few nodes its not an issue, but when you are pushing
routing tables for 250+ nodes, you wanna make sure that the system can
handle that type of stress along with all of its other functions.



Drew Lentz
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of George Rogato
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 9:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

Here's a bit of info for you to check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimized_Link_State_Routing_protocol

Optimized Link State Routing protocol (OLSR) is a routing protocol that 
is optimised for mobile ad-hoc networks, sometimes called wireless mesh 
networks. It is a proactive link-state routing protocol that floods a 
full topology table to all nodes in the network which then compute 
optimal forwarding paths locally

I think Star has OLSR for their mesh


George Rogato wrote:
  From what I hear on the other forums, OLSR seems to be more stable on a 
 wireless network.
 
 
 
 Allen Marsalis wrote:
 Exactly my point George.  I don'/t...

 Allen


 At 09:16 PM 9/14/2007, George Rogato wrote:


 Allen Marsalis wrote:
 I'm just asking why you think you need something else besides BGP or
 OSPF.

 OSLR
 -- 
 George Rogato

 Welcome to WISPA

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 http://signup.wispa.org/


 


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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Clint Ricker
The OLSR wikipedia page doesn't do a very good job of analyzing the
strengths and weaknesses of OLSR.

The big problem with OLSR is that it's fairly new, immature, and not
widely used or supported (mainly open source roll your own solutions
and StarOS are the only ones that I know of off the top of my head
that use it).

Still, why it is attractive... (or could be if more common / standardized)

Yes, OLSR does push routing tables to all devices (as does OSPF and
BGP)...I call that a feature, not a flaw.  Link-state (ie OSPF and
BGP) protocols are much better than distant vector (ie RIP) simply
because routers will make much better decisions if they can see the
entire network at once instead of just what the next node is
reporting.  Sure, that does take more memory and CPU, but the
alternative is much worse...  There are some theoretical other
approaches, but nothing that, as far as I know, is more than a gleam
in the eye of some grad student.

The OLSR page failed to mention the main reason why OLSR is
theoretically attractive over OSPF--link state quality (there has been
some noise about adding this onto OSPF, but, it's largely just noise
at this point and nothing that one could really implement).

In other words, OLSR (technically via an extension) has the ability to
choose routes based not just on link speed, load, link state (is it up
or down), but also on how little packet loss is being experienced
across the link.  So, with OSPF, a 10Mb/s interface that is has no
packet loss will lose out to a 100Mb/s interface that has some
packet loss (as long as the packet loss doesn't down the interface
or is the result of load, which can also be calculated).  Which, is
great for wired connections, where you're dealing with very low bit
error rates and so forth.  One wired Ethernet link is, pretty much
100% of the time, pretty much identical to the next.  Wireless, of
course, does have a wider variance.  OLSR performs rudimentary packet
loss calculations across the links and takes this information into
account to give preference to good links over not so good links.

http://www.olsr.org/docs/README-Link-Quality.html is a good writeup on this...

OSPF is good for wireless if you are using very well engineered links
(think nice point to point connections).  So, if you are deploying
mesh simply as a way of getting some redundancy in a network, then
OSPF is definitely good.

For some situations, though, the point of doing wireless mesh is that
you make up for quality with quantity.  Mesh takes the concept that,
to some degree, multiple less than perfect links can, in aggregate,
be as reliable as one very solid link...so, if you're going block by
block in a city (for example), you may realize that some of your links
will be problematic, at best.  This is especially true among community
wireless networks where your links are based on volunteers, not on
design per-se.  If that is the reason why you are using a mesh
topology, then you would ideally need something that can differentiate
based not just on speed and state of a link, but also on the quality
of the connection of the link.  Still, it is important to note that
there are other problems associated with mesh that don't necessarily
have anything to do with a routing protocol per-se; relying on
multiple unreliable links to synthisize a reliable connection is
problematic on other levels, since, if your network topology changes
pretty frequently, you'll get packets coming in out of order and so
forth...



Clint Ricker
-Kentnis Technologies


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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Tom DeReggi

Well, I disagree, in a hippocritical way..

What Meraki has done is package and make it painlessly easy and low cost for 
any joker in town to spend $100 a house and destroy the RF environement 
accross town, with noise generating Omnis, without a clue on the engineering 
that needs to go behind it.
The good news about the other common Mesh Boxes that were $4000 a shot 
(Moto, Tropo, etc) is it kept the MESH boxes in the hand of professionals 
(if you call Muni network guys- Professionals?)  Ventures like Meraki, scare 
the pants off me, regarding the health of this industry.
Locust MEsh on the other hand, is Open Source Software designed to empower 
developers to go to work to make MESH gear. Sure its OPEN, but the klearning 
curve is still there, detering individuals that did not have atleast a 
certain level of minimal technical competence.


With that said, I'll have to Buy and Try some of those Meraki's, I see all 
sorts of applications for them, that have now become affordable to try :-)

Could possibly save me tons of money.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Steve Stroh [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?



Carl:

Thanks :-) I rest my case.

Steve

On 9/14/07, Carl Shivers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
We are using Meraki at a local ballpark, the zoo and a river walk area. 
The
ballpark has 1 gw node and 4 mesh nodes. The zoo has 1 gw and 1 mesh 
node.
The river walk area presently has 2 gw nodes and 8 mesh nodes. This will 
be

expanded to 3 gw nodes and 17 mesh nodes.

It is very easy to deploy using the Meraki system dashboard.

P.S. I am not a Meraki sales person.


--
Steve Stroh
Editor / Analyst, Stroh Publications LLC
425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com


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9/14/2007 8:59 AM







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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Tom DeReggi

Allen,

I was reading and agreeing with your insight until you asked... Otherwise, 
what exactly is your

problem with OSPF?

OSPF has proven to be pretty much worthless on any challenging wireless 
environment.  OSPF works simply on Up or Down state and Hops. None of these 
characteristics are measures of better performance or path, in Wireless 
netoworks. And it makes it worse in envornments where the state of a link 
has may vary drastically for short periods.  For example, a 100mbps link 
that perfect 99.9% of the time, but occassionally neighbors auto-scannin APs 
jump on your channel to create noise for short periods. OSPF may switch down 
to the backup 10mbps link, but what tells OSPF when it is BEST to switch 
back? There also becomes trade offs of trying to send 100mbps of data 
accross a 10mbps link, (depending on whether your users are UDP or TCP type 
traffic).  I don;t have the answer yet, but I can tell you it is not OSPF. 
OSLR is not just for last mile, its very possible that OLSR may be capable 
to scale for main backbone redunancy and routing. We don't know yet what we 
are doing...


Most likely, we'll be migrating to a combination of BGP, OSPF, OLSR, with 
OSPF only at the top level, jsut because the test of time reliabilty, and 
most of the top level links will be Licences and very stable. There is also 
an arguement that on the last mile, Optimized routing is not needed, in 
favor of redundant ring topology at Layer2.  Rings have always been used in 
the past for the primary Backbones both with Licensed wireless and Fiber. 
But I'd argue for a reversal in thought, and that Shortest Path Optimized 
Routing MESH is more appropriate for the Backbone, and the Ring more 
appropriate for the Last mile cluster of buildings served.


I think the WISP operator needsto be true to themselves that they can;t be 
everything to everybody. Designing for performance does nto necessarilly 
design for mobility. And designing for coverage (residential mesh) may very 
well destroythe possibilty of guaranteeing QOS for clients.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?



At 04:01 PM 9/14/2007, Japhy Bartlett wrote:


How come nobody seems to be using it?



The first Locustworld/meshbox/ultramesh deployment in the US was around 
2000 a few dozen miles north of me in Vivian LA, (Fastline?) I met with 
the owner last year.  Basically he was an WISP worth about $20-30k with 
debt of about $100k+  I really hated to see that..


The thing about mesh is this.  If all nodes are stationary  that is one 
thing.  (Muni-wifi nodes on lightpoles for example)  If all nodes are 
roaming/moving that is entirely another matter.  I am beginning to believe 
that no mesh (TCP/IP stack) is required if all notes are stationary like 
NOC's and NAP's and Telco Hotels on the Internet are stationary yet meshed 
using BGP (without locustworld or meraki)... Roaming in an entirely 
different matter.  But meshes come often hand in hand with roaming which 
is too much to swallow all at once if you ask me.  If it was easy to 
provide a multi-MBPS service with roaming cellphone technology, (roaming) 
they would have done it by now. EVDO sucks in my town.  Faster than 1xRTT 
but still very intermittent with dropped connections.


Imagine a fire truck racing across town roaming from WIFI AP to AP without 
braking his TCP/IP socket.  That is true mesh.  Many mesh protocols 
and/or solutions don't address this issue of roaming across subnets which 
can be a TCP/IP nightmare on very large networks such as muni wifi 
networks.


Building a network that cannot scale in size is like building a time bomb, 
or at the very least, painting yourself into a corner.  My point?  I'm 
just asking why you think you need something else besides BGP or OSPF.  If 
your nodes move, then I gotcha, Use Meraki or whatever mesh protocol 
works..  Otherwise, what exactly is your problem with OSPF?  I'm just 
trying to learn more about meshing, and my comments are JMHO...


Allen




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RE: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread chris cooper
Id be interested to see how they worked with high gain directional
antennas.  With the proper antennas you could pick up some penetration,
help pick through noise and change polarities.  Anybody used the Meraki
boxes this way?

Chris 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 10:08 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

Well, I disagree, in a hippocritical way..

What Meraki has done is package and make it painlessly easy and low cost
for 
any joker in town to spend $100 a house and destroy the RF environement 
accross town, with noise generating Omnis, without a clue on the
engineering 
that needs to go behind it.
The good news about the other common Mesh Boxes that were $4000 a shot 
(Moto, Tropo, etc) is it kept the MESH boxes in the hand of
professionals 
(if you call Muni network guys- Professionals?)  Ventures like Meraki,
scare 
the pants off me, regarding the health of this industry.
Locust MEsh on the other hand, is Open Source Software designed to
empower 
developers to go to work to make MESH gear. Sure its OPEN, but the
klearning 
curve is still there, detering individuals that did not have atleast a 
certain level of minimal technical competence.

With that said, I'll have to Buy and Try some of those Meraki's, I see
all 
sorts of applications for them, that have now become affordable to try
:-)
Could possibly save me tons of money.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Steve Stroh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 6:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?


 Carl:

 Thanks :-) I rest my case.

 Steve

 On 9/14/07, Carl Shivers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 We are using Meraki at a local ballpark, the zoo and a river walk
area. 
 The
 ballpark has 1 gw node and 4 mesh nodes. The zoo has 1 gw and 1 mesh 
 node.
 The river walk area presently has 2 gw nodes and 8 mesh nodes. This
will 
 be
 expanded to 3 gw nodes and 17 mesh nodes.

 It is very easy to deploy using the Meraki system dashboard.

 P.S. I am not a Meraki sales person.

 -- 
 Steve Stroh
 Editor / Analyst, Stroh Publications LLC
 425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com




 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Jack Unger

Clint,

Thank you for your very informative post about OLSR. It really helped me 
learn!


jack


Clint Ricker wrote:

The OLSR wikipedia page doesn't do a very good job of analyzing the
strengths and weaknesses of OLSR.

The big problem with OLSR is that it's fairly new, immature, and not
widely used or supported (mainly open source roll your own solutions
and StarOS are the only ones that I know of off the top of my head
that use it).

Still, why it is attractive... (or could be if more common / standardized)

Yes, OLSR does push routing tables to all devices (as does OSPF and
BGP)...I call that a feature, not a flaw.  Link-state (ie OSPF and
BGP) protocols are much better than distant vector (ie RIP) simply
because routers will make much better decisions if they can see the
entire network at once instead of just what the next node is
reporting.  Sure, that does take more memory and CPU, but the
alternative is much worse...  There are some theoretical other
approaches, but nothing that, as far as I know, is more than a gleam
in the eye of some grad student.

The OLSR page failed to mention the main reason why OLSR is
theoretically attractive over OSPF--link state quality (there has been
some noise about adding this onto OSPF, but, it's largely just noise
at this point and nothing that one could really implement).

In other words, OLSR (technically via an extension) has the ability to
choose routes based not just on link speed, load, link state (is it up
or down), but also on how little packet loss is being experienced
across the link.  So, with OSPF, a 10Mb/s interface that is has no
packet loss will lose out to a 100Mb/s interface that has some
packet loss (as long as the packet loss doesn't down the interface
or is the result of load, which can also be calculated).  Which, is
great for wired connections, where you're dealing with very low bit
error rates and so forth.  One wired Ethernet link is, pretty much
100% of the time, pretty much identical to the next.  Wireless, of
course, does have a wider variance.  OLSR performs rudimentary packet
loss calculations across the links and takes this information into
account to give preference to good links over not so good links.

http://www.olsr.org/docs/README-Link-Quality.html is a good writeup on this...

OSPF is good for wireless if you are using very well engineered links
(think nice point to point connections).  So, if you are deploying
mesh simply as a way of getting some redundancy in a network, then
OSPF is definitely good.

For some situations, though, the point of doing wireless mesh is that
you make up for quality with quantity.  Mesh takes the concept that,
to some degree, multiple less than perfect links can, in aggregate,
be as reliable as one very solid link...so, if you're going block by
block in a city (for example), you may realize that some of your links
will be problematic, at best.  This is especially true among community
wireless networks where your links are based on volunteers, not on
design per-se.  If that is the reason why you are using a mesh
topology, then you would ideally need something that can differentiate
based not just on speed and state of a link, but also on the quality
of the connection of the link.  Still, it is important to note that
there are other problems associated with mesh that don't necessarily
have anything to do with a routing protocol per-se; relying on
multiple unreliable links to synthisize a reliable connection is
problematic on other levels, since, if your network topology changes
pretty frequently, you'll get packets coming in out of order and so
forth...



Clint Ricker
-Kentnis Technologies


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Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Author of the WISP Handbook - Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Allen Marsalis

At 10:24 PM 9/14/2007, George Rogato wrote:

Optimized Link State Routing protocol (OLSR) is a routing protocol 
that is optimised for mobile ad-hoc networks, sometimes called 
wireless mesh networks. It is a proactive link-state routing 
protocol that floods a full topology table to all nodes in the 
network which then compute optimal forwarding paths locally


First I've never used OLSR so I know little about it.

However the key words here is mobile and ad-hoc.  In the 900 
mesh application I'm dreaming of, similar to muni-wifi, the nodes 
aren't mobile, nor are they ad-hoc.  The nodes are fixed to poles 
and buildings, and the nodes are infrastructure just like we always 
used. Also I don't plan on using any single radio systems requiring 
locustworld, etc.


Lets say a node can see two upstream nodes and two downstream 
nodes.  And then lets say one of the upstream nodes fails.  Not much 
thought needs to be given as to which is the most Optimal route to 
take.  i.e. The only other one.   Now for a zillion laptops floating 
around all over the place forming an adhoc network,  with nodes 
coming and going in a dynamic fashion, yeah I'm sure a specialized 
wireless mesh protocol is necessary such as locustworld, et al.. I 
believe somewhere around 30 or more mesh wireless (mobile) mesh 
protocols have been developed over the years each with it's own pros 
and cons.  I'm not thinking about anything mobile unless it is the 
users laptop roaming around his house and yard.  In that case, I 
don't think I need a mesh protocol at all, or anything other than 
common interior routing gateway protocols.  Am I right?  I wonder 
what Strix uses in their multi-radio systems?  eg


Allen



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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Tom DeReggi
You are missing the point... How does the radio know which of the two links 
failed?
Most wireless failures deverally effecting a customer is not a Complete on 
or off state.
A protocol needs to know when to switch from a marginal link to a lesser 
marginal link, even if it just looks at the two first hop links connected to 
it.
Then there becomes the situation where if you have radio  a, b, c, d in-line 
and b and c are the two highest quality links, and the data would just ping 
pong back and forth between the two middle routers. Even the simplest 
networks benefit from a smarter protocol.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Allen Marsalis [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2007 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?



At 10:24 PM 9/14/2007, George Rogato wrote:

Optimized Link State Routing protocol (OLSR) is a routing protocol that is 
optimised for mobile ad-hoc networks, sometimes called wireless mesh 
networks. It is a proactive link-state routing protocol that floods a full 
topology table to all nodes in the network which then compute optimal 
forwarding paths locally


First I've never used OLSR so I know little about it.

However the key words here is mobile and ad-hoc.  In the 900 mesh 
application I'm dreaming of, similar to muni-wifi, the nodes aren't 
mobile, nor are they ad-hoc.  The nodes are fixed to poles and 
buildings, and the nodes are infrastructure just like we always used. Also 
I don't plan on using any single radio systems requiring locustworld, etc.


Lets say a node can see two upstream nodes and two downstream nodes.  And 
then lets say one of the upstream nodes fails.  Not much thought needs to 
be given as to which is the most Optimal route to take.  i.e. The only 
other one.   Now for a zillion laptops floating around all over the place 
forming an adhoc network,  with nodes coming and going in a dynamic 
fashion, yeah I'm sure a specialized wireless mesh protocol is necessary 
such as locustworld, et al.. I believe somewhere around 30 or more mesh 
wireless (mobile) mesh protocols have been developed over the years each 
with it's own pros and cons.  I'm not thinking about anything mobile 
unless it is the users laptop roaming around his house and yard.  In that 
case, I don't think I need a mesh protocol at all, or anything other 
than common interior routing gateway protocols.  Am I right?  I wonder 
what Strix uses in their multi-radio systems?  eg


Allen



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Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.487 / Virus Database: 
269.13.19/1008 - Release Date: 9/14/2007 8:59 AM







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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread George Rogato

Tom DeReggi wrote:
... How does the radio know which of the two 
links failed?


Not sure if you know tog, cw's son, but here's his wiki and helping hand 
concerning OLSR


http://staros.tog.net/wiki/OLSR


I think OLSR is getting more prominent among some wisps.

If your a wisp who bridges, it's no concern. But if your doing routed 
wireless networks, then OLSR may possibly be a replacement for OSPF.
I'm not the network admin, or any kind of admin, but we run ospf on our 
bsd routers and I recently seen where ospf failed, till we rebooted a box.



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RE: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-15 Thread Allen Marsalis

At 09:39 AM 9/15/2007, chris cooper wrote:

Id be interested to see how they worked with high gain directional
antennas.  With the proper antennas you could pick up some penetration,
help pick through noise and change polarities.  Anybody used the Meraki
boxes this way?


Please follow my train of thought for a second.  When using 
directional antennas, then a bit of aiming is required right?.  But 
the benefits are as you say.  Now such antennas need to be mounted 
right?  So this is a fixed wireless mesh we are talking here, not a 
mobile mesh with antennas in motion. What makes this possible is 
multiple radio systems (3, 4, even 5 radios).  So given all this, 
how would Meraki provide anything that say Mikrotik couldn't 
do?  Choose paths?  There isn't much to choose when using directional 
antennas on each end (PtP)  You know what's there already, one radio, 
the other end of the link.  So it is just a matter of switching 
interfaces to a second interface when the best interface goes down 
(if ever).  OSPF is pretty good at that.  Not arguing, just curious 
about all that.  Also I'm brainstorming possible configurations with 
an omni on one end and a directional on the other.  I need a couple 
of good cheap directional 900MHz antennas for some testing.  I have 
two omni's already and wasn't too impressed going omni to 
omni.  Signal started to drop off after about a quarter mile  or so, 
and that isn't going to cut it.


Allen



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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-14 Thread Steve Stroh
Japhy:

Meraki kind of nuked 'em - http://meraki.com.


Thanks,

Steve

On 9/14/07, Japhy Bartlett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 With all the discussion going on about the 900mhz meshes, I thought
 I'd ask your opinion on the locustworld meshboxes.

 I'm still just exploring the options for a local non-profit sort of
 setup, and it was one of the first things to come up when I was
 Googling.  It seems like they made a big splash a few years ago, and
 it looks like they're still deploying new projects.  But I haven't
 seen anyone even mention it on this list, after a few months of
 lurking.

 How come nobody seems to be using it?

 Japhy
 

 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
 ISPCON **
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425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com


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RE: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-14 Thread Carl Shivers
We are using Meraki at a local ballpark, the zoo and a river walk area. The
ballpark has 1 gw node and 4 mesh nodes. The zoo has 1 gw and 1 mesh node.
The river walk area presently has 2 gw nodes and 8 mesh nodes. This will be
expanded to 3 gw nodes and 17 mesh nodes. 

It is very easy to deploy using the Meraki system dashboard.

P.S. I am not a Meraki sales person.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Steve Stroh
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 4:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

Japhy:

Meraki kind of nuked 'em - http://meraki.com.


Thanks,

Steve

On 9/14/07, Japhy Bartlett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 With all the discussion going on about the 900mhz meshes, I thought
 I'd ask your opinion on the locustworld meshboxes.

 I'm still just exploring the options for a local non-profit sort of
 setup, and it was one of the first things to come up when I was
 Googling.  It seems like they made a big splash a few years ago, and
 it looks like they're still deploying new projects.  But I haven't
 seen anyone even mention it on this list, after a few months of
 lurking.

 How come nobody seems to be using it?

 Japhy




 ** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
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 ** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
 ** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-14 Thread Steve Stroh
Carl:

Thanks :-) I rest my case.

Steve

On 9/14/07, Carl Shivers [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 We are using Meraki at a local ballpark, the zoo and a river walk area. The
 ballpark has 1 gw node and 4 mesh nodes. The zoo has 1 gw and 1 mesh node.
 The river walk area presently has 2 gw nodes and 8 mesh nodes. This will be
 expanded to 3 gw nodes and 17 mesh nodes.

 It is very easy to deploy using the Meraki system dashboard.

 P.S. I am not a Meraki sales person.

-- 
Steve Stroh
Editor / Analyst, Stroh Publications LLC
425-939-0076 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.stevestroh.com


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-14 Thread Blair Davis

I have 20 some deployed.  Hit me off list if you want to know more.



Japhy Bartlett wrote:

With all the discussion going on about the 900mhz meshes, I thought
I'd ask your opinion on the locustworld meshboxes.

I'm still just exploring the options for a local non-profit sort of
setup, and it was one of the first things to come up when I was
Googling.  It seems like they made a big splash a few years ago, and
it looks like they're still deploying new projects.  But I haven't
seen anyone even mention it on this list, after a few months of
lurking.

How come nobody seems to be using it?

Japhy


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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-14 Thread Allen Marsalis

At 04:01 PM 9/14/2007, Japhy Bartlett wrote:


How come nobody seems to be using it?



The first Locustworld/meshbox/ultramesh deployment in the US was 
around 2000 a few dozen miles north of me in Vivian LA, (Fastline?) I 
met with the owner last year.  Basically he was an WISP worth about 
$20-30k with debt of about $100k+  I really hated to see that..


The thing about mesh is this.  If all nodes are stationary  that is 
one thing.  (Muni-wifi nodes on lightpoles for example)  If all nodes 
are roaming/moving that is entirely another matter.  I am beginning 
to believe that no mesh (TCP/IP stack) is required if all notes are 
stationary like NOC's and NAP's and Telco Hotels on the Internet are 
stationary yet meshed using BGP (without locustworld or meraki)... 
Roaming in an entirely different matter.  But meshes come often hand 
in hand with roaming which is too much to swallow all at once if you 
ask me.  If it was easy to provide a multi-MBPS service with roaming 
cellphone technology, (roaming) they would have done it by now. EVDO 
sucks in my town.  Faster than 1xRTT but still very intermittent with 
dropped connections.


Imagine a fire truck racing across town roaming from WIFI AP to AP 
without braking his TCP/IP socket.  That is true mesh.  Many mesh 
protocols and/or solutions don't address this issue of roaming across 
subnets which can be a TCP/IP nightmare on very large networks such 
as muni wifi networks.


Building a network that cannot scale in size is like building a time 
bomb, or at the very least, painting yourself into a corner.  My 
point?  I'm just asking why you think you need something else besides 
BGP or OSPF.  If your nodes move, then I gotcha, Use Meraki or 
whatever mesh protocol works..  Otherwise, what exactly is your 
problem with OSPF?  I'm just trying to learn more about meshing, and 
my comments are JMHO...


Allen




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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-14 Thread George Rogato



Allen Marsalis wrote:
I'm just asking why you think you need something else besides BGP or
OSPF. 


OSLR
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-14 Thread George Rogato

err

OLSR

George Rogato wrote:



Allen Marsalis wrote:
I'm just asking why you think you need something else besides BGP or
OSPF. 


OSLR


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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-14 Thread Allen Marsalis

Exactly my point George.  I don'/t...

Allen


At 09:16 PM 9/14/2007, George Rogato wrote:



Allen Marsalis wrote:
I'm just asking why you think you need something else besides BGP or

OSPF.


OSLR
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-14 Thread George Rogato
From what I hear on the other forums, OLSR seems to be more stable on a 
wireless network.




Allen Marsalis wrote:

Exactly my point George.  I don'/t...

Allen


At 09:16 PM 9/14/2007, George Rogato wrote:



Allen Marsalis wrote:
I'm just asking why you think you need something else besides BGP or

OSPF.


OSLR
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Re: [WISPA] Locustworld meshes?

2007-09-14 Thread George Rogato

Here's a bit of info for you to check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimized_Link_State_Routing_protocol

Optimized Link State Routing protocol (OLSR) is a routing protocol that 
is optimised for mobile ad-hoc networks, sometimes called wireless mesh 
networks. It is a proactive link-state routing protocol that floods a 
full topology table to all nodes in the network which then compute 
optimal forwarding paths locally


I think Star has OLSR for their mesh


George Rogato wrote:
 From what I hear on the other forums, OLSR seems to be more stable on a 
wireless network.




Allen Marsalis wrote:

Exactly my point George.  I don'/t...

Allen


At 09:16 PM 9/14/2007, George Rogato wrote:



Allen Marsalis wrote:
I'm just asking why you think you need something else besides BGP or

OSPF.


OSLR
--
George Rogato

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