Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-09-01 Thread Mike Hammett

What do we need to do to make that happen?

I've never really had any money, but the company is growing and I should 
have a couple hundred bucks to invest in a WISPA membership.  ;-)



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 9:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Just this week, We at WISPA were in conference with FCC staff about rule 
changes seeking certified componentized self assembled systems and 
certified installer status.


I did not hear any negativity from FCC, they were very open.


Tom DeReggi wrote:

John,

AMEN!! That pretty much puts it in perspective. Well said.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


There are problems with the current rules which if followed to the 
letter of the law will lead to stifling innovation and backward behavior 
by operators.


If Alvarion were to certify the Gabriel antenna with the B-100 then I 
would no longer be a criminal. That makes sense? I don't think so.


Hey I guess I am nothing but a cowboy for using my $6K pair of Alvarion 
B-100 radios with my $1K pair of (already installed and aimed) Gabriel 
antennas? I guess there is no rationale for me to want to use a pair of 
the best parabolic antennas I have ever seen with installed radomes, 
machined mounting hardware, spun aluminum dish, etc. which were already 
aimed in place and in use with my previous FCC certified $10K EX-1 radio 
system. Using a better antenna already aimed makes me a criminal.


I guess there are people here who do not think a company like Gabriel or 
any other antenna manufacturer should be able to sell their antennas 
unless they can talk a radio manufacturer like Alvarion or Motorola or 
somebody else into including their antenna models in their FCC certs? 
How is this fair?


Should Andrews or Pac Wireless have to beg the radio guys to use their 
antennas in their certs to keep people from bashing their customers for 
being renegade cowboys who shirk the law? Should makers of single board 
computers be denied the right to sell their computing platforms to WISPs 
who wish to build quality systems using their platform to carry their 
favorite system management / routing / firewall / bandwidth shaping / 
captive portal / AP software? Is that fair? How is that any different 
than the FCC's recent allowance for any radio card to be installed into 
any laptop or desktop platform? Why is it that our SBCs running Linux 
are making us lawbreakers while the Dell laptops running Windows, or 
Linux, can install any radio modules they wish? Maybe we should start 
building APs out of old Del laptops since they have more regulatory 
leniency than our computing platforms. They get component level mix and 
match but the operators do not? Joe Blow on the street can mix and match 
any radio with any computer with any software but we cannot? What gives? 
We are only asking for what the PC industry has been granted with one 
more revision and that is that antennas be allowed to be mix and match 
also provided that EIRP and OOB rules are not broken. Why is it that 
asking for these things makes us criminals?


Is it right for makers of radio modules to be forced to spend millions 
of dollars and wait for months of testing to allow their radio modules 
to be placed into a variety of SBCs using hundreds of antenna 
combinations with different software platforms or face being called a 
bunch of law breaking thugs? Telling WISPs who like having thousands of 
combinations to choose from that they are criminals and not giving them 
the right to at least consider some form of rational lobbying for better 
rules is NOT what we are about. We are NOT telling people to break the 
law. We DO acknowledge that the law has problems and we want to help fix 
those problems. If that makes us renegade cowboys then I will wear the 
badge with pride.


There is merit to seeing some relaxation of the rules to either allow 
for a certified component rule where radios, SBCs, software and antennas 
can be assembled into systems which meet the rules or where an 
operator's license allows people to self-certify a system that meets the 
rules.


WISPA is NOT about seeing how to justify breaking the law. It is about 
making sure the law does not break us.

John Scrivner


Marty Dougherty wrote:

Well once again I am going to make a statement- I have promised to be
gone from here- and I basically am- But I check in once in a while 
and

the AP1000 thread caught my eye- We have a lot of Ap2000's from YDI (30
or 40)- yes- all legal and purchased as a system from YDI. We have

RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-31 Thread Marty Dougherty
Well once again I am going to make a statement- I have promised to be
gone from here- and I basically am- But I check in once in a while and
the AP1000 thread caught my eye- We have a lot of Ap2000's from YDI (30
or 40)- yes- all legal and purchased as a system from YDI. We have not
bought any other wifi and don't deploy it anymore and we don't mix and
match. As amps etc fail (or start leaking) we use our decommissioned
stock. Hopefully we will have all of them out of the network some day.

Anyhow, once again the thread goes back to the same subject- Operating
legally and the back and forth pissing about this. 

I will tell you all that for SURE you will never get a large scale WISP
to join, support and contribute to WISPA because of this issue. WISPA
will always be a collection of renegades and small time operators who
are known in the industry as do what you want/need rule breakers.

More and more of you want to operate with licensed spectrum. At the same
time, the Clearwires and Tower Streams are starting to use unlicensed as
well- What is the difference between them and the typical WISP? The
lines are blending even more now and it will be harder to explain to the
industry and the FCC why WISP's want to operate this way but the
grown ups can follow the rules?

Ask yourself why companies like
http://netbnr.net/loc.html?http://www.wcai.com/about_us.htm are not
joining and contributing to WISPA? I joined with the intention of
helping our industry but was almost immediately nailed with this whole
legal operator issue when I spoke up. Not many of us are willing to do
anything with WISPA until that position changes and it has to be at the
EXEC BOARD level. It's very obvious to all that the board does not want
to address the issue under the current rules.

Save all the usual BS attacks for someone else-they don't bother me and
they wont change a thing for WISPA and only serve to drive more
operators away

Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc.






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of JohnnyO
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:01 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Ralph - I do believe Butch has a valid point here. If you are using an 
Orinoco AP with your own DIY setup (sounds like you are) - I hardly
think 
you're legal. So why does the pot call the kettle black in this or any
other 
instance ?

JohnnyO
- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it in
with a UL approved Power cord too :-P I don't need to justify legality
to allow someone to rationalize illegality. Sorry

As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire you
for some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some
certified designs?

WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble together
and be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that. If
they did, then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already
have do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to
Radio Shack and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.

How can we WISPS as an industry just blatantly defy the rules. Because
they are silly doesn't void them, nor does it give us the authorization
to ignore them.  Does someone need to get fined and made an example of?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment snip I
suppose you are using a complete certified system with the Orinoco AP?
(radio, pigtail, enclosure, cables, antenna)  Just for all our comfort,
can you provide the FCC IDs on the gear you are using? snip
-- 




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at

ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007

Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-31 Thread Tom DeReggi

Marty,

Whether we want to admit it or not, WISPA is an association that represents 
small operators.
The big companies don't need representation, they have the cash to lobby for 
their interests better than we can lobby it for them.
Therefore it is impossible for WISPA to alienate illegal operators by 
policing them with harsh policy and still survive.
What WISPA can continue to do is, educate on how to become legal, and 
encourage the industry to evolve to legality as best they can.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Marty Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 8:32 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment



Well once again I am going to make a statement- I have promised to be
gone from here- and I basically am- But I check in once in a while and
the AP1000 thread caught my eye- We have a lot of Ap2000's from YDI (30
or 40)- yes- all legal and purchased as a system from YDI. We have not
bought any other wifi and don't deploy it anymore and we don't mix and
match. As amps etc fail (or start leaking) we use our decommissioned
stock. Hopefully we will have all of them out of the network some day.

Anyhow, once again the thread goes back to the same subject- Operating
legally and the back and forth pissing about this.

I will tell you all that for SURE you will never get a large scale WISP
to join, support and contribute to WISPA because of this issue. WISPA
will always be a collection of renegades and small time operators who
are known in the industry as do what you want/need rule breakers.

More and more of you want to operate with licensed spectrum. At the same
time, the Clearwires and Tower Streams are starting to use unlicensed as
well- What is the difference between them and the typical WISP? The
lines are blending even more now and it will be harder to explain to the
industry and the FCC why WISP's want to operate this way but the
grown ups can follow the rules?

Ask yourself why companies like
http://netbnr.net/loc.html?http://www.wcai.com/about_us.htm are not
joining and contributing to WISPA? I joined with the intention of
helping our industry but was almost immediately nailed with this whole
legal operator issue when I spoke up. Not many of us are willing to do
anything with WISPA until that position changes and it has to be at the
EXEC BOARD level. It's very obvious to all that the board does not want
to address the issue under the current rules.

Save all the usual BS attacks for someone else-they don't bother me and
they wont change a thing for WISPA and only serve to drive more
operators away

Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc.






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of JohnnyO
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:01 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Ralph - I do believe Butch has a valid point here. If you are using an
Orinoco AP with your own DIY setup (sounds like you are) - I hardly
think
you're legal. So why does the pot call the kettle black in this or any
other
instance ?

JohnnyO
- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it in
with a UL approved Power cord too :-P I don't need to justify legality
to allow someone to rationalize illegality. Sorry

As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire you
for some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some
certified designs?

WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble together
and be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that. If
they did, then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already
have do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to
Radio Shack and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.

How can we WISPS as an industry just blatantly defy the rules. Because
they are silly doesn't void them, nor does it give us the authorization
to ignore them.  Does someone need to get fined and made an example of?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment snip I
suppose you are using a complete certified system with the Orinoco AP?
(radio, pigtail, enclosure, cables, antenna)  Just for all our comfort,
can you provide the FCC IDs on the gear you are using? snip
--




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at

ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007

Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-31 Thread Mike Hammett
oh, but it is.  When they certify a cocmponent, they should be able to 
certify it as a component, to be used in any fashion that compontent can be 
used in.  It's not that difficult of an idea.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:13 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Of course you can build a radio kit from Ramsey, but you won't be using it
on commercial frequencies. You know that's what I was talking about.
You don't put Ramsey in the same category as Moto, Kenwood and Icom.

Hams cannot build equipment for resale, Ham gear may not be used on non-ham
frequencies or the Ham will lose his LICENSE.
TV and radio stations are under very close scrutiny from the FCC to stay
within the guidelines of their LICENSE. Enen a small modification to their
tower or their transmitting frequency or direction can get them fined.
Do you see the common key word in the above sentences?  LICENSED.  The WISP
equipment we are discussing here is not licensed.
There is a large difference.

It would be nice if there was a way to mix n' match radios, antennas and
whotnot any way we wanted, but I just don't see it happening.

The PC industry and the industrial control industry are not building
transmitting systems. Its not even apples and apples.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:58 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Ralph, as a matter of fact, you CAN build your own radios...

http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/

I'm saddened that anyone in this industry would not want the ability to mix
and match CERTIFIED components.  It's done all of the time already.  Both in

our industry, the PC industry, industrial controls etc. etc. etc. etc.

Oh yeah, let us no forget about the hams.  They don't even have to use
certified components!  They can build the whole thing from the ground up.

Seems to me that radio and TV stations can also built transmit sights as
they see fit.  THEY are the responsible parties.

But that's all ok.  If we get our way you'll still be able to buy that
certified system!  No problem with that.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it in with
a UL approved Power cord too :-P I don't need to justify legality to allow
someone to rationalize illegality. Sorry

As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire you for
some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some certified
designs?

WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble together and
be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that. If they did,
then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already have
do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to Radio Shack
and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.

How can we WISPS as an industry just blatantly defy the rules. Because they
are silly doesn't void them, nor does it give us the authorization to ignore
them.  Does someone need to get fined and made an example of?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment snip I
suppose you are using a complete certified system with the Orinoco AP?
(radio, pigtail, enclosure, cables, antenna)  Just for all our comfort, can
you provide the FCC IDs on the gear you are using? snip
--




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/



WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18

RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-31 Thread Butch Evans

On Thu, 30 Aug 2007, Ralph wrote:

Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged 
it in with a UL approved Power cord too :-P I don't need to justify 
legality to allow someone to rationalize illegality. Sorry


In that case, I'll apologize.  I was not aware of any Orinoco based 
certified systems other than YDI's system.  As for the idea of 
rationalizing illegality, I think you misunderstand my intent.  I 
get tired of this whole argument.  I agree that being legal should 
be primary importance, but that has nothing to do with the original 
question.  I get very tired of hearing the answer to every Mikrotik 
question with it's not certified.  While true, it is not helpful 
in answering the questions people pose.


As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to 
hire you for some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to 
make some certified designs?


I have done this.  I can tell you (and others) that Mikrotik DOES 
hear the cries for certified gear and I can suggest that you (and 
others) keep watching to see what comes.  I cannot say more than 
that.


WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble 
together and be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work 
like that. If they did, then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the 
others would already have do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And 
you'd be able to go to Radio Shack and buy a kit to build a 
microwave oven project.


You are making ridiculous comparisons.  A system that conforms to 
the standards that have been dictated, comprised of components that 
have been certified to behave in a certain way, is a FAR cry from a 
build a microwave oven project.  I understand that statement may 
have been a bit toungue in cheek, but the point is that we are not 
asking for the freedom to just put together whatever we want in any 
combination with wreckless abandon.  What we want to do is:


1. Use components with known, certified behaviour
2. Put these components together into a system
3. Stay within the EIRP and other parameters as outlined in the 
Part-15 rules.


I don't think this is very different from what the computer people 
are doing now, since I know I have a laptop with a wireless card, 
and there is no separate Part-15 certification for my laptop.  There 
is a sticker that says Tested to comply with Part-15 standards for 
home or office use.  While I have to agree that this is not the 
same as me putting a radio on a tower, the principle IS the same, so 
long as I comply with Part-15 standards for outdoor point to 
multipoint radio systems.  I understand this is not currently the 
law, I don't agree that this is a pipe dream.  I think there is 
certainly a possible solution to this desire.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-31 Thread George Rogato
I hear someone is coming out with a certified MT system and I hear 
that another someone is coming out with a certified Star system.


Oh yeah, I understand that Tranzeo does their own testing and certification.

Very impressive...



Butch Evans wrote:

On Thu, 30 Aug 2007, Ralph wrote:

Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it 
in with a UL approved Power cord too :-P I don't need to justify 
legality to allow someone to rationalize illegality. Sorry


In that case, I'll apologize.  I was not aware of any Orinoco based 
certified systems other than YDI's system.  As for the idea of 
rationalizing illegality, I think you misunderstand my intent.  I get 
tired of this whole argument.  I agree that being legal should be 
primary importance, but that has nothing to do with the original 
question.  I get very tired of hearing the answer to every Mikrotik 
question with it's not certified.  While true, it is not helpful in 
answering the questions people pose.


As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire 
you for some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some 
certified designs?


I have done this.  I can tell you (and others) that Mikrotik DOES hear 
the cries for certified gear and I can suggest that you (and others) 
keep watching to see what comes.  I cannot say more than that.


WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble 
together and be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like 
that. If they did, then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would 
already have do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able 
to go to Radio Shack and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.


You are making ridiculous comparisons.  A system that conforms to the 
standards that have been dictated, comprised of components that have 
been certified to behave in a certain way, is a FAR cry from a build a 
microwave oven project.  I understand that statement may have been a 
bit toungue in cheek, but the point is that we are not asking for the 
freedom to just put together whatever we want in any combination with 
wreckless abandon.  What we want to do is:


1. Use components with known, certified behaviour
2. Put these components together into a system
3. Stay within the EIRP and other parameters as outlined in the Part-15 
rules.


I don't think this is very different from what the computer people are 
doing now, since I know I have a laptop with a wireless card, and there 
is no separate Part-15 certification for my laptop.  There is a sticker 
that says Tested to comply with Part-15 standards for home or office 
use.  While I have to agree that this is not the same as me putting a 
radio on a tower, the principle IS the same, so long as I comply with 
Part-15 standards for outdoor point to multipoint radio systems.  I 
understand this is not currently the law, I don't agree that this is a 
pipe dream.  I think there is certainly a possible solution to this 
desire.






** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-31 Thread John Scrivner
/about_us.htm are not
joining and contributing to WISPA? I joined with the intention of
helping our industry but was almost immediately nailed with this whole
legal operator issue when I spoke up. Not many of us are willing to do
anything with WISPA until that position changes and it has to be at the
EXEC BOARD level. It's very obvious to all that the board does not want
to address the issue under the current rules.

Save all the usual BS attacks for someone else-they don't bother me and
they wont change a thing for WISPA and only serve to drive more
operators away

Marty Dougherty
CEO
Roadstar Internet Inc.






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of JohnnyO
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:01 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Ralph - I do believe Butch has a valid point here. If you are using an 
Orinoco AP with your own DIY setup (sounds like you are) - I hardly
think 
you're legal. So why does the pot call the kettle black in this or any
other 
instance ?


JohnnyO
- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it in
with a UL approved Power cord too :-P I don't need to justify legality
to allow someone to rationalize illegality. Sorry

As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire you
for some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some
certified designs?

WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble together
and be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that. If
they did, then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already
have do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to
Radio Shack and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.

How can we WISPS as an industry just blatantly defy the rules. Because
they are silly doesn't void them, nor does it give us the authorization
to ignore them.  Does someone need to get fined and made an example of?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment snip I
suppose you are using a complete certified system with the Orinoco AP?
(radio, pigtail, enclosure, cables, antenna)  Just for all our comfort,
can you provide the FCC IDs on the gear you are using? snip
  



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-31 Thread Mike Hammett
John speaks so much better than I do.  Good thing he's of the same mindset 
as myself.



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com


- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


There are problems with the current rules which if followed to the letter 
of the law will lead to stifling innovation and backward behavior by 
operators.


If Alvarion were to certify the Gabriel antenna with the B-100 then I 
would no longer be a criminal. That makes sense? I don't think so.


Hey I guess I am nothing but a cowboy for using my $6K pair of Alvarion 
B-100 radios with my $1K pair of (already installed and aimed) Gabriel 
antennas? I guess there is no rationale for me to want to use a pair of 
the best parabolic antennas I have ever seen with installed radomes, 
machined mounting hardware, spun aluminum dish, etc. which were already 
aimed in place and in use with my previous FCC certified $10K EX-1 radio 
system. Using a better antenna already aimed makes me a criminal.


I guess there are people here who do not think a company like Gabriel or 
any other antenna manufacturer should be able to sell their antennas 
unless they can talk a radio manufacturer like Alvarion or Motorola or 
somebody else into including their antenna models in their FCC certs? How 
is this fair?


Should Andrews or Pac Wireless have to beg the radio guys to use their 
antennas in their certs to keep people from bashing their customers for 
being renegade cowboys who shirk the law? Should makers of single board 
computers be denied the right to sell their computing platforms to WISPs 
who wish to build quality systems using their platform to carry their 
favorite system management / routing / firewall / bandwidth shaping / 
captive portal / AP software? Is that fair? How is that any different than 
the FCC's recent allowance for any radio card to be installed into any 
laptop or desktop platform? Why is it that our SBCs running Linux are 
making us lawbreakers while the Dell laptops running Windows, or Linux, 
can install any radio modules they wish? Maybe we should start building 
APs out of old Del laptops since they have more regulatory leniency than 
our computing platforms. They get component level mix and match but the 
operators do not? Joe Blow on the street can mix and match any radio with 
any computer with any software but we cannot? What gives? We are only 
asking for what the PC industry has been granted with one more revision 
and that is that antennas be allowed to be mix and match also provided 
that EIRP and OOB rules are not broken. Why is it that asking for these 
things makes us criminals?


Is it right for makers of radio modules to be forced to spend millions of 
dollars and wait for months of testing to allow their radio modules to be 
placed into a variety of SBCs using hundreds of antenna combinations with 
different software platforms or face being called a bunch of law breaking 
thugs? Telling WISPs who like having thousands of combinations to choose 
from that they are criminals and not giving them the right to at least 
consider some form of rational lobbying for better rules is NOT what we 
are about. We are NOT telling people to break the law. We DO acknowledge 
that the law has problems and we want to help fix those problems. If that 
makes us renegade cowboys then I will wear the badge with pride.


There is merit to seeing some relaxation of the rules to either allow for 
a certified component rule where radios, SBCs, software and antennas can 
be assembled into systems which meet the rules or where an operator's 
license allows people to self-certify a system that meets the rules.


WISPA is NOT about seeing how to justify breaking the law. It is about 
making sure the law does not break us.

John Scrivner


Marty Dougherty wrote:

Well once again I am going to make a statement- I have promised to be
gone from here- and I basically am- But I check in once in a while and
the AP1000 thread caught my eye- We have a lot of Ap2000's from YDI (30
or 40)- yes- all legal and purchased as a system from YDI. We have not
bought any other wifi and don't deploy it anymore and we don't mix and
match. As amps etc fail (or start leaking) we use our decommissioned
stock. Hopefully we will have all of them out of the network some day.

Anyhow, once again the thread goes back to the same subject- Operating
legally and the back and forth pissing about this.
I will tell you all that for SURE you will never get a large scale WISP
to join, support and contribute to WISPA because of this issue. WISPA
will always be a collection of renegades and small time operators who
are known in the industry as do what you want/need rule breakers.

More and more of you want to operate with licensed spectrum. At the same
time, the Clearwires

Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-31 Thread Tom DeReggi

And lets not forget Ligowave, who has their certified system.

And ADI hard at work on releasing theirs.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: George Rogato [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 3:19 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


I hear someone is coming out with a certified MT system and I hear that 
another someone is coming out with a certified Star system.


Oh yeah, I understand that Tranzeo does their own testing and 
certification.


Very impressive...



Butch Evans wrote:

On Thu, 30 Aug 2007, Ralph wrote:

Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it in 
with a UL approved Power cord too :-P I don't need to justify legality 
to allow someone to rationalize illegality. Sorry


In that case, I'll apologize.  I was not aware of any Orinoco based 
certified systems other than YDI's system.  As for the idea of 
rationalizing illegality, I think you misunderstand my intent.  I get 
tired of this whole argument.  I agree that being legal should be primary 
importance, but that has nothing to do with the original question.  I get 
very tired of hearing the answer to every Mikrotik question with it's 
not certified.  While true, it is not helpful in answering the questions 
people pose.


As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire you 
for some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some 
certified designs?


I have done this.  I can tell you (and others) that Mikrotik DOES hear 
the cries for certified gear and I can suggest that you (and others) keep 
watching to see what comes.  I cannot say more than that.


WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble together 
and be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that. If 
they did, then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already 
have do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to 
Radio Shack and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.


You are making ridiculous comparisons.  A system that conforms to the 
standards that have been dictated, comprised of components that have been 
certified to behave in a certain way, is a FAR cry from a build a 
microwave oven project.  I understand that statement may have been a bit 
toungue in cheek, but the point is that we are not asking for the freedom 
to just put together whatever we want in any combination with wreckless 
abandon.  What we want to do is:


1. Use components with known, certified behaviour
2. Put these components together into a system
3. Stay within the EIRP and other parameters as outlined in the Part-15 
rules.


I don't think this is very different from what the computer people are 
doing now, since I know I have a laptop with a wireless card, and there 
is no separate Part-15 certification for my laptop.  There is a sticker 
that says Tested to comply with Part-15 standards for home or office 
use.  While I have to agree that this is not the same as me putting a 
radio on a tower, the principle IS the same, so long as I comply with 
Part-15 standards for outdoor point to multipoint radio systems.  I 
understand this is not currently the law, I don't agree that this is a 
pipe dream.  I think there is certainly a possible solution to this 
desire.






** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


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Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-31 Thread Tom DeReggi

John,

AMEN!! That pretty much puts it in perspective. Well said.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


There are problems with the current rules which if followed to the letter 
of the law will lead to stifling innovation and backward behavior by 
operators.


If Alvarion were to certify the Gabriel antenna with the B-100 then I 
would no longer be a criminal. That makes sense? I don't think so.


Hey I guess I am nothing but a cowboy for using my $6K pair of Alvarion 
B-100 radios with my $1K pair of (already installed and aimed) Gabriel 
antennas? I guess there is no rationale for me to want to use a pair of 
the best parabolic antennas I have ever seen with installed radomes, 
machined mounting hardware, spun aluminum dish, etc. which were already 
aimed in place and in use with my previous FCC certified $10K EX-1 radio 
system. Using a better antenna already aimed makes me a criminal.


I guess there are people here who do not think a company like Gabriel or 
any other antenna manufacturer should be able to sell their antennas 
unless they can talk a radio manufacturer like Alvarion or Motorola or 
somebody else into including their antenna models in their FCC certs? How 
is this fair?


Should Andrews or Pac Wireless have to beg the radio guys to use their 
antennas in their certs to keep people from bashing their customers for 
being renegade cowboys who shirk the law? Should makers of single board 
computers be denied the right to sell their computing platforms to WISPs 
who wish to build quality systems using their platform to carry their 
favorite system management / routing / firewall / bandwidth shaping / 
captive portal / AP software? Is that fair? How is that any different than 
the FCC's recent allowance for any radio card to be installed into any 
laptop or desktop platform? Why is it that our SBCs running Linux are 
making us lawbreakers while the Dell laptops running Windows, or Linux, 
can install any radio modules they wish? Maybe we should start building 
APs out of old Del laptops since they have more regulatory leniency than 
our computing platforms. They get component level mix and match but the 
operators do not? Joe Blow on the street can mix and match any radio with 
any computer with any software but we cannot? What gives? We are only 
asking for what the PC industry has been granted with one more revision 
and that is that antennas be allowed to be mix and match also provided 
that EIRP and OOB rules are not broken. Why is it that asking for these 
things makes us criminals?


Is it right for makers of radio modules to be forced to spend millions of 
dollars and wait for months of testing to allow their radio modules to be 
placed into a variety of SBCs using hundreds of antenna combinations with 
different software platforms or face being called a bunch of law breaking 
thugs? Telling WISPs who like having thousands of combinations to choose 
from that they are criminals and not giving them the right to at least 
consider some form of rational lobbying for better rules is NOT what we 
are about. We are NOT telling people to break the law. We DO acknowledge 
that the law has problems and we want to help fix those problems. If that 
makes us renegade cowboys then I will wear the badge with pride.


There is merit to seeing some relaxation of the rules to either allow for 
a certified component rule where radios, SBCs, software and antennas can 
be assembled into systems which meet the rules or where an operator's 
license allows people to self-certify a system that meets the rules.


WISPA is NOT about seeing how to justify breaking the law. It is about 
making sure the law does not break us.

John Scrivner


Marty Dougherty wrote:

Well once again I am going to make a statement- I have promised to be
gone from here- and I basically am- But I check in once in a while and
the AP1000 thread caught my eye- We have a lot of Ap2000's from YDI (30
or 40)- yes- all legal and purchased as a system from YDI. We have not
bought any other wifi and don't deploy it anymore and we don't mix and
match. As amps etc fail (or start leaking) we use our decommissioned
stock. Hopefully we will have all of them out of the network some day.

Anyhow, once again the thread goes back to the same subject- Operating
legally and the back and forth pissing about this.
I will tell you all that for SURE you will never get a large scale WISP
to join, support and contribute to WISPA because of this issue. WISPA
will always be a collection of renegades and small time operators who
are known in the industry as do what you want/need rule breakers.

More and more of you want to operate with licensed spectrum. At the same
time, the Clearwires and Tower Streams

Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-31 Thread George Rogato
Just this week, We at WISPA were in conference with FCC staff about rule 
changes seeking certified componentized self assembled systems and 
certified installer status.


I did not hear any negativity from FCC, they were very open.


Tom DeReggi wrote:

John,

AMEN!! That pretty much puts it in perspective. Well said.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


There are problems with the current rules which if followed to the 
letter of the law will lead to stifling innovation and backward 
behavior by operators.


If Alvarion were to certify the Gabriel antenna with the B-100 then I 
would no longer be a criminal. That makes sense? I don't think so.


Hey I guess I am nothing but a cowboy for using my $6K pair of 
Alvarion B-100 radios with my $1K pair of (already installed and 
aimed) Gabriel antennas? I guess there is no rationale for me to want 
to use a pair of the best parabolic antennas I have ever seen with 
installed radomes, machined mounting hardware, spun aluminum dish, 
etc. which were already aimed in place and in use with my previous FCC 
certified $10K EX-1 radio system. Using a better antenna already aimed 
makes me a criminal.


I guess there are people here who do not think a company like Gabriel 
or any other antenna manufacturer should be able to sell their 
antennas unless they can talk a radio manufacturer like Alvarion or 
Motorola or somebody else into including their antenna models in their 
FCC certs? How is this fair?


Should Andrews or Pac Wireless have to beg the radio guys to use their 
antennas in their certs to keep people from bashing their customers 
for being renegade cowboys who shirk the law? Should makers of single 
board computers be denied the right to sell their computing platforms 
to WISPs who wish to build quality systems using their platform to 
carry their favorite system management / routing / firewall / 
bandwidth shaping / captive portal / AP software? Is that fair? How is 
that any different than the FCC's recent allowance for any radio card 
to be installed into any laptop or desktop platform? Why is it that 
our SBCs running Linux are making us lawbreakers while the Dell 
laptops running Windows, or Linux, can install any radio modules they 
wish? Maybe we should start building APs out of old Del laptops since 
they have more regulatory leniency than our computing platforms. They 
get component level mix and match but the operators do not? Joe Blow 
on the street can mix and match any radio with any computer with any 
software but we cannot? What gives? We are only asking for what the PC 
industry has been granted with one more revision and that is that 
antennas be allowed to be mix and match also provided that EIRP and 
OOB rules are not broken. Why is it that asking for these things makes 
us criminals?


Is it right for makers of radio modules to be forced to spend millions 
of dollars and wait for months of testing to allow their radio modules 
to be placed into a variety of SBCs using hundreds of antenna 
combinations with different software platforms or face being called a 
bunch of law breaking thugs? Telling WISPs who like having thousands 
of combinations to choose from that they are criminals and not giving 
them the right to at least consider some form of rational lobbying for 
better rules is NOT what we are about. We are NOT telling people to 
break the law. We DO acknowledge that the law has problems and we want 
to help fix those problems. If that makes us renegade cowboys then I 
will wear the badge with pride.


There is merit to seeing some relaxation of the rules to either allow 
for a certified component rule where radios, SBCs, software and 
antennas can be assembled into systems which meet the rules or where 
an operator's license allows people to self-certify a system that 
meets the rules.


WISPA is NOT about seeing how to justify breaking the law. It is about 
making sure the law does not break us.

John Scrivner


Marty Dougherty wrote:

Well once again I am going to make a statement- I have promised to be
gone from here- and I basically am- But I check in once in a while and
the AP1000 thread caught my eye- We have a lot of Ap2000's from YDI (30
or 40)- yes- all legal and purchased as a system from YDI. We have not
bought any other wifi and don't deploy it anymore and we don't mix and
match. As amps etc fail (or start leaking) we use our decommissioned
stock. Hopefully we will have all of them out of the network some day.

Anyhow, once again the thread goes back to the same subject- Operating
legally and the back and forth pissing about this.
I will tell you all that for SURE you will never get a large scale WISP
to join, support and contribute to WISPA because of this issue. WISPA

Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-31 Thread Scottie Arnett
Sorry one lineragreed!
-- Original Message --
From: Tom DeReggi [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Date:  Fri, 31 Aug 2007 21:37:59 -0400

John,

AMEN!! That pretty much puts it in perspective. Well said.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: John Scrivner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2007 3:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


 There are problems with the current rules which if followed to the letter 
 of the law will lead to stifling innovation and backward behavior by 
 operators.

 If Alvarion were to certify the Gabriel antenna with the B-100 then I 
 would no longer be a criminal. That makes sense? I don't think so.

 Hey I guess I am nothing but a cowboy for using my $6K pair of Alvarion 
 B-100 radios with my $1K pair of (already installed and aimed) Gabriel 
 antennas? I guess there is no rationale for me to want to use a pair of 
 the best parabolic antennas I have ever seen with installed radomes, 
 machined mounting hardware, spun aluminum dish, etc. which were already 
 aimed in place and in use with my previous FCC certified $10K EX-1 radio 
 system. Using a better antenna already aimed makes me a criminal.

 I guess there are people here who do not think a company like Gabriel or 
 any other antenna manufacturer should be able to sell their antennas 
 unless they can talk a radio manufacturer like Alvarion or Motorola or 
 somebody else into including their antenna models in their FCC certs? How 
 is this fair?

 Should Andrews or Pac Wireless have to beg the radio guys to use their 
 antennas in their certs to keep people from bashing their customers for 
 being renegade cowboys who shirk the law? Should makers of single board 
 computers be denied the right to sell their computing platforms to WISPs 
 who wish to build quality systems using their platform to carry their 
 favorite system management / routing / firewall / bandwidth shaping / 
 captive portal / AP software? Is that fair? How is that any different than 
 the FCC's recent allowance for any radio card to be installed into any 
 laptop or desktop platform? Why is it that our SBCs running Linux are 
 making us lawbreakers while the Dell laptops running Windows, or Linux, 
 can install any radio modules they wish? Maybe we should start building 
 APs out of old Del laptops since they have more regulatory leniency than 
 our computing platforms. They get component level mix and match but the 
 operators do not? Joe Blow on the street can mix and match any radio with 
 any computer with any software but we cannot? What gives? We are only 
 asking for what the PC industry has been granted with one more revision 
 and that is that antennas be allowed to be mix and match also provided 
 that EIRP and OOB rules are not broken. Why is it that asking for these 
 things makes us criminals?

 Is it right for makers of radio modules to be forced to spend millions of 
 dollars and wait for months of testing to allow their radio modules to be 
 placed into a variety of SBCs using hundreds of antenna combinations with 
 different software platforms or face being called a bunch of law breaking 
 thugs? Telling WISPs who like having thousands of combinations to choose 
 from that they are criminals and not giving them the right to at least 
 consider some form of rational lobbying for better rules is NOT what we 
 are about. We are NOT telling people to break the law. We DO acknowledge 
 that the law has problems and we want to help fix those problems. If that 
 makes us renegade cowboys then I will wear the badge with pride.

 There is merit to seeing some relaxation of the rules to either allow for 
 a certified component rule where radios, SBCs, software and antennas can 
 be assembled into systems which meet the rules or where an operator's 
 license allows people to self-certify a system that meets the rules.

 WISPA is NOT about seeing how to justify breaking the law. It is about 
 making sure the law does not break us.
 John Scrivner


 Marty Dougherty wrote:
 Well once again I am going to make a statement- I have promised to be
 gone from here- and I basically am- But I check in once in a while and
 the AP1000 thread caught my eye- We have a lot of Ap2000's from YDI (30
 or 40)- yes- all legal and purchased as a system from YDI. We have not
 bought any other wifi and don't deploy it anymore and we don't mix and
 match. As amps etc fail (or start leaking) we use our decommissioned
 stock. Hopefully we will have all of them out of the network some day.

 Anyhow, once again the thread goes back to the same subject- Operating
 legally and the back and forth pissing about this.
 I will tell you all that for SURE you will never get a large scale WISP
 to join, support and contribute to WISPA because

RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-30 Thread Butch Evans

On Tue, 28 Aug 2007, Ralph wrote:

The Orinoco AP series was a really rock solid radio.  I still have 
many that are trucking along!


SNIP

And you REALLY should be looking at using legal equipment- 
especially if you are in this as a business!


I suppose you are using a complete certified system with the Orinoco 
AP?  (radio, pigtail, enclosure, cables, antenna)  Just for all our 
comfort, can you provide the FCC IDs on the gear you are using?


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
My calendar: http://tinyurl.com/y24ad6
Training Partners: http://tinyurl.com/smfkf
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-30 Thread Ralph
Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it in with
a UL approved Power cord too :-P
I don't need to justify legality to allow someone to rationalize illegality.
Sorry

As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire you for
some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some certified
designs?

WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble together and
be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that.
If they did, then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already have
do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to Radio Shack
and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.

How can we WISPS as an industry just blatantly defy the rules. Because they
are silly doesn't void them, nor does it give us the authorization to ignore
them.  Does someone need to get fined and made an example of? 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment
snip
I suppose you are using a complete certified system with the Orinoco 
AP?  (radio, pigtail, enclosure, cables, antenna)  Just for all our 
comfort, can you provide the FCC IDs on the gear you are using?
snip
-- 



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


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Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-30 Thread JohnnyO
Ralph - I do believe Butch has a valid point here. If you are using an 
Orinoco AP with your own DIY setup (sounds like you are) - I hardly think 
you're legal. So why does the pot call the kettle black in this or any other 
instance ?


JohnnyO
- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it in with
a UL approved Power cord too :-P
I don't need to justify legality to allow someone to rationalize illegality.
Sorry

As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire you for
some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some certified
designs?

WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble together and
be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that.
If they did, then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already have
do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to Radio Shack
and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.

How can we WISPS as an industry just blatantly defy the rules. Because they
are silly doesn't void them, nor does it give us the authorization to ignore
them.  Does someone need to get fined and made an example of?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment
snip
I suppose you are using a complete certified system with the Orinoco
AP?  (radio, pigtail, enclosure, cables, antenna)  Just for all our
comfort, can you provide the FCC IDs on the gear you are using?
snip
--



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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**
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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-30 Thread Sam Tetherow
I would check pigtails and jumpers or possibly a radio card replacement 
just to be sure.  I have had good luck with MT as APs using both atheros 
based cards as well as prism based cards.  All clients radios were prism 
based (CB3, Tranzeo).  The RB200 boards have seemed a little more solid, 
but they don't have the ompf of a 532 are they are close to twice the 
price last I checked. 

If I was going to suggest a StarOS implementation I would suggest the 
WARs especially if the rumors of an open certification kit are true.



David E. Smith wrote:

Luke Pack wrote:
We were looking into a solution here... we had an Orinoco AP-1000 and 
that got blown, so we replaced it with a Mikrotik with an SR2 card.  
The Mikrotik cannot come near to the quality of the Orinoco.  This 
has actually happened before on another tower with all known good 
equipment.  I have people not on the tower, and those who are, have 
much worse signals.  The Mikrotik is set to auto, with regulatory 
domain as United States.  Tx power is at default. Anyone know what 
the problem could be?


This may be an unpopular opinion in some parts, but I've never had the 
best of luck with Mikrotik's software as an access point - too much 
generally odd behaviour like what you're describing. I love their 
software for weird routing and firewalling tasks, and have a lot of 
their hardware deployed (much of running non-Mikrotik software), but 
it seems to make for a lousy AP.


As has previously been mentioned, if you can still find a RouterBoard 
200, they have PCMCIA slots. (You may also want to look into other 
software for it. The RB200 is a standard x86 board; you can install, 
say, StarOS on a flash card and probably get the results you need.)


If you want to get really really fancy, get a Soekris 5501 and case, 
and a PCI-to-PCMCIA adapter. That way the card slides right into the 
top of the case so it even LOOKS like an AP-1000. :)


Consider also experimenting a bit with the radio card you use. The 
CM-9 doesn't have as much raw naked power as the SR2, but it has 
slightly better receive sensitivity. More important, it just feels 
more reliable.


David Smith
MVN.net
 



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 
at ISPCON **

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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
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RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-30 Thread Ralph
Why are you twisting my words, Johnny?

I never mentioned a word about having DIY. I said the WISPA DIY was a pipe
dream because I know the FCC and how they do things.

We do not have any DIY in our WISP and never have.  Our RF is all Canopy,
Deliberant, and Tranzeo. 
We use certified gear along with certified antennas in the proper
configurations.  
My remaining Orinoco access points (which are Part 15 certified including
their integrated antennas) are trucking along nicely (and they are not part
of the WISP).

My stance on FCC Part 15 is that it is embarrasing that people in our
industry brag that they are disobeying the rules and it casts a pall over
the WISP industry. It is perfect ammunition for those who would like to see
us gone to lobby for such things.  I'm afraid that before we see access to
new bands and things like TV white space that we need to clean up our own
backyards.

The kettle is definitely black, but there's not even a pot on the stove!

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of JohnnyO
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:01 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Ralph - I do believe Butch has a valid point here. If you are using an 
Orinoco AP with your own DIY setup (sounds like you are) - I hardly think 
you're legal. So why does the pot call the kettle black in this or any other

instance ?

JohnnyO
- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 7:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it in with
a UL approved Power cord too :-P I don't need to justify legality to allow
someone to rationalize illegality. Sorry

As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire you for
some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some certified
designs?

WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble together and
be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that. If they did,
then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already have
do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to Radio Shack
and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.

How can we WISPS as an industry just blatantly defy the rules. Because they
are silly doesn't void them, nor does it give us the authorization to ignore
them.  Does someone need to get fined and made an example of?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment snip I
suppose you are using a complete certified system with the Orinoco AP?
(radio, pigtail, enclosure, cables, antenna)  Just for all our comfort, can
you provide the FCC IDs on the gear you are using? snip
-- 




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
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** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
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**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code

Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-30 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

Ralph, as a matter of fact, you CAN build your own radios...

http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/

I'm saddened that anyone in this industry would not want the ability to mix 
and match CERTIFIED components.  It's done all of the time already.  Both in 
our industry, the PC industry, industrial controls etc. etc. etc. etc.


Oh yeah, let us no forget about the hams.  They don't even have to use 
certified components!  They can build the whole thing from the ground up.


Seems to me that radio and TV stations can also built transmit sights as 
they see fit.  THEY are the responsible parties.


But that's all ok.  If we get our way you'll still be able to buy that 
certified system!  No problem with that.


laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it in with
a UL approved Power cord too :-P
I don't need to justify legality to allow someone to rationalize illegality.
Sorry

As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire you for
some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some certified
designs?

WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble together and
be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that.
If they did, then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already have
do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to Radio Shack
and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.

How can we WISPS as an industry just blatantly defy the rules. Because they
are silly doesn't void them, nor does it give us the authorization to ignore
them.  Does someone need to get fined and made an example of?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment
snip
I suppose you are using a complete certified system with the Orinoco
AP?  (radio, pigtail, enclosure, cables, antenna)  Just for all our
comfort, can you provide the FCC IDs on the gear you are using?
snip
--



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **

** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
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** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-30 Thread Ralph
Of course you can build a radio kit from Ramsey, but you won't be using it
on commercial frequencies. You know that's what I was talking about.
You don't put Ramsey in the same category as Moto, Kenwood and Icom.

Hams cannot build equipment for resale, Ham gear may not be used on non-ham
frequencies or the Ham will lose his LICENSE.
TV and radio stations are under very close scrutiny from the FCC to stay
within the guidelines of their LICENSE. Enen a small modification to their
tower or their transmitting frequency or direction can get them fined.
Do you see the common key word in the above sentences?  LICENSED.  The WISP
equipment we are discussing here is not licensed.
There is a large difference.

It would be nice if there was a way to mix n' match radios, antennas and
whotnot any way we wanted, but I just don't see it happening.

The PC industry and the industrial control industry are not building
transmitting systems. Its not even apples and apples.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:58 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Ralph, as a matter of fact, you CAN build your own radios...

http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/

I'm saddened that anyone in this industry would not want the ability to mix 
and match CERTIFIED components.  It's done all of the time already.  Both in

our industry, the PC industry, industrial controls etc. etc. etc. etc.

Oh yeah, let us no forget about the hams.  They don't even have to use 
certified components!  They can build the whole thing from the ground up.

Seems to me that radio and TV stations can also built transmit sights as 
they see fit.  THEY are the responsible parties.

But that's all ok.  If we get our way you'll still be able to buy that 
certified system!  No problem with that.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it in with
a UL approved Power cord too :-P I don't need to justify legality to allow
someone to rationalize illegality. Sorry

As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire you for
some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some certified
designs?

WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble together and
be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that. If they did,
then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already have
do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to Radio Shack
and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.

How can we WISPS as an industry just blatantly defy the rules. Because they
are silly doesn't void them, nor does it give us the authorization to ignore
them.  Does someone need to get fined and made an example of?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment snip I
suppose you are using a complete certified system with the Orinoco AP?
(radio, pigtail, enclosure, cables, antenna)  Just for all our comfort, can
you provide the FCC IDs on the gear you are using? snip
-- 




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at 
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/



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Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



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Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-30 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Ralph, does it help that we're talking about a certified operator program? 
Not just allowing anyone to mix and match anything they want.  Basically 
we'd create a new licensed unlicensed operator.


What's the down side?
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Of course you can build a radio kit from Ramsey, but you won't be using it
on commercial frequencies. You know that's what I was talking about.
You don't put Ramsey in the same category as Moto, Kenwood and Icom.

Hams cannot build equipment for resale, Ham gear may not be used on non-ham
frequencies or the Ham will lose his LICENSE.
TV and radio stations are under very close scrutiny from the FCC to stay
within the guidelines of their LICENSE. Enen a small modification to their
tower or their transmitting frequency or direction can get them fined.
Do you see the common key word in the above sentences?  LICENSED.  The WISP
equipment we are discussing here is not licensed.
There is a large difference.

It would be nice if there was a way to mix n' match radios, antennas and
whotnot any way we wanted, but I just don't see it happening.

The PC industry and the industrial control industry are not building
transmitting systems. Its not even apples and apples.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:58 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Ralph, as a matter of fact, you CAN build your own radios...

http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/

I'm saddened that anyone in this industry would not want the ability to mix
and match CERTIFIED components.  It's done all of the time already.  Both in

our industry, the PC industry, industrial controls etc. etc. etc. etc.

Oh yeah, let us no forget about the hams.  They don't even have to use
certified components!  They can build the whole thing from the ground up.

Seems to me that radio and TV stations can also built transmit sights as
they see fit.  THEY are the responsible parties.

But that's all ok.  If we get our way you'll still be able to buy that
certified system!  No problem with that.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it in with
a UL approved Power cord too :-P I don't need to justify legality to allow
someone to rationalize illegality. Sorry

As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire you for
some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some certified
designs?

WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble together and
be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that. If they did,
then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already have
do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to Radio Shack
and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.

How can we WISPS as an industry just blatantly defy the rules. Because they
are silly doesn't void them, nor does it give us the authorization to ignore
them.  Does someone need to get fined and made an example of?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:56 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment snip I
suppose you are using a complete certified system with the Orinoco AP?
(radio, pigtail, enclosure, cables, antenna)  Just for all our comfort, can
you provide the FCC IDs on the gear you are using? snip
--




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/



WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com

Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-30 Thread John Scrivner
The downside may be that creating such a licensed operator program may 
not be feasible and could possibly attract attention (negative 
attention) to the WISP industry. I am not saying that is how it would 
go. I am just saying that there needs to be more thought given to this 
idea of a licensed operator program for WISPs. I am not convinced that 
this is needed or that it will fix any problems. In order for this type 
of a program to fix the problems then people who use the gear would need 
to get their operator's license. If the FCC will not enforce the rules 
in place now then what makes you think people will abide by the new 
licensed operator rule any more than they would the current rules?


I think if we had one minor change to the rules which stated that as 
long as EIRP and oob emission standards were met using certified radio 
devices then any combinations of passive devices, SBCs and software 
connected to those certified radios would be legal. That should be the 
crux of our petition if one is made. I think the licensed operator idea 
is a great concept that will likely not be logistically or feasibly 
practical to implement or lobby for passage of. If we cannot get the 
relaxation of the certification rules then I doubt any other idea for 
allowing this to change will succeed.

Scriv


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
Ralph, does it help that we're talking about a certified operator 
program? Not just allowing anyone to mix and match anything they 
want.  Basically we'd create a new licensed unlicensed operator.


What's the down side?
marlon

- Original Message - From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 9:13 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Of course you can build a radio kit from Ramsey, but you won't be 
using it

on commercial frequencies. You know that's what I was talking about.
You don't put Ramsey in the same category as Moto, Kenwood and Icom.

Hams cannot build equipment for resale, Ham gear may not be used on 
non-ham

frequencies or the Ham will lose his LICENSE.
TV and radio stations are under very close scrutiny from the FCC to stay
within the guidelines of their LICENSE. Enen a small modification to 
their

tower or their transmitting frequency or direction can get them fined.
Do you see the common key word in the above sentences?  LICENSED.  The 
WISP

equipment we are discussing here is not licensed.
There is a large difference.

It would be nice if there was a way to mix n' match radios, antennas and
whotnot any way we wanted, but I just don't see it happening.

The PC industry and the industrial control industry are not building
transmitting systems. Its not even apples and apples.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 11:58 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Ralph, as a matter of fact, you CAN build your own radios...

http://www.ramseyelectronics.com/

I'm saddened that anyone in this industry would not want the ability 
to mix
and match CERTIFIED components.  It's done all of the time already.  
Both in


our industry, the PC industry, industrial controls etc. etc. etc. etc.

Oh yeah, let us no forget about the hams.  They don't even have to use
certified components!  They can build the whole thing from the ground up.

Seems to me that radio and TV stations can also built transmit sights as
they see fit.  THEY are the responsible parties.

But that's all ok.  If we get our way you'll still be able to buy that
certified system!  No problem with that.

laters,
marlon

- Original Message - From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:03 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


Yep, and addition to being fully FCC Part 15 certified, I plugged it 
in with
a UL approved Power cord too :-P I don't need to justify legality to 
allow

someone to rationalize illegality. Sorry

As well known as you are to Mikrotik Butch (even I was about to hire 
you for

some MT Router work), why don't you encourage MT to make some certified
designs?

WISPA's wish for a do it yourself palette of devices to cobble 
together and
be certified is a pipe dream. The FCC doesn't work like that. If they 
did,

then Kenwood, Icom, Motorola, and the others would already have
do-it-yourself commercial radio kits. And you'd be able to go to Radio 
Shack

and buy a kit to build a microwave oven project.

How can we WISPS as an industry just blatantly defy the rules. Because 
they
are silly doesn't void them, nor does it give us the authorization to 
ignore

them.  Does someone need to get fined and made an example of?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:56

RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-28 Thread Ralph
The Orinoco AP series was a really rock solid radio.  I still have many that
are trucking along!
I sure wish they were still around (as who they really were- not Proxim).

And you REALLY should be looking at using legal equipment- especially if you
are in this as a business!
MT based access points are not legal in the US unless you have sent them to
the lab and received FCC Part 15 type acceptance on your assembled unit.
There are plenty of manufacturers who do make certified gear and those folks
are the ones who follow the FCC rules and should be supported.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Luke Pack
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:13 AM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment


We were looking into a solution here... we had an Orinoco AP-1000 and that 
got blown, so we replaced it with a Mikrotik with an SR2 card.  The Mikrotik

cannot come near to the quality of the Orinoco.  This has actually happened 
before on another tower with all known good equipment.  I have people not on

the tower, and those who are, have much worse signals.  The Mikrotik is set 
to auto, with regulatory domain as United States.  Tx power is at default. 
Anyone know what the problem could be?

Regards,

Luke Pack



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
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RE: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-28 Thread Russ Kreigh

I believe the Mikrotik RouterBoard 200's will take PCMCIA cards, allowing
use of the Orinoco cards.

They're getting hard to find, but they are still around. 

Thanks,

Russ Kreigh
Network Engineer
OnlyInternet.Net Broadband  Wireless
Supernova Technologies
Office: (800) 363-0989
Direct: (260) 827-2486
Fax:(260) 824-9624
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.oibw.net 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Luke Pack
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 10:13 AM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

We were looking into a solution here... we had an Orinoco AP-1000 and that
got blown, so we replaced it with a Mikrotik with an SR2 card.  The Mikrotik
cannot come near to the quality of the Orinoco.  This has actually happened
before on another tower with all known good equipment.  I have people not on
the tower, and those who are, have much worse signals.  The Mikrotik is set
to auto, with regulatory domain as United States.  Tx power is at default. 
Anyone know what the problem could be?

Regards,

Luke Pack
 




** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at
ISPCON **
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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Re: [WISPA] Mikrotik as an Orinoco AP-1000 Replacment

2007-08-28 Thread David E. Smith

Luke Pack wrote:
We were looking into a solution here... we had an Orinoco AP-1000 and 
that got blown, so we replaced it with a Mikrotik with an SR2 card.  The 
Mikrotik cannot come near to the quality of the Orinoco.  This has 
actually happened before on another tower with all known good 
equipment.  I have people not on the tower, and those who are, have much 
worse signals.  The Mikrotik is set to auto, with regulatory domain as 
United States.  Tx power is at default. Anyone know what the problem 
could be?


This may be an unpopular opinion in some parts, but I've never had the 
best of luck with Mikrotik's software as an access point - too much 
generally odd behaviour like what you're describing. I love their 
software for weird routing and firewalling tasks, and have a lot of 
their hardware deployed (much of running non-Mikrotik software), but it 
seems to make for a lousy AP.


As has previously been mentioned, if you can still find a RouterBoard 
200, they have PCMCIA slots. (You may also want to look into other 
software for it. The RB200 is a standard x86 board; you can install, 
say, StarOS on a flash card and probably get the results you need.)


If you want to get really really fancy, get a Soekris 5501 and case, and 
a PCI-to-PCMCIA adapter. That way the card slides right into the top of 
the case so it even LOOKS like an AP-1000. :)


Consider also experimenting a bit with the radio card you use. The CM-9 
doesn't have as much raw naked power as the SR2, but it has slightly 
better receive sensitivity. More important, it just feels more reliable.


David Smith
MVN.net


** Join us at the WISPA Reception at 6:30 PM on October the 16th 2007 at ISPCON 
**
** ISPCON Fall 2007 - October 16-18 - San Jose, CA   www.ispcon.com **
** THE INTERNET INDUSTRY EVENT **
** FREE Exhibits and Events Pass available until August 31 **
** Use Customer Code WSEMF7 when you register online at 
http://www.ispcon.com/register.php **


WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


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