Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-27 Thread Tom DeReggi




What are the advantages of using
both polarities for the same signal in a good LOS environment?


There isn't.
But having one on standby means, that when someone deploys on that 
channel/pol, in seconds you can switch polarities, to get past it.
Broadcasting on DualPols, does have benefits in NLOS environments.  However, 
the antenna design is more critical for transmitting on both at the same 
time.  Often the Dual Pol antenna is used to create Circular polarity, such 
as the higher end Proxim Dual Pol gear.  Or Orthogon that may compare 
signals to self correct them.


Tom DeReggi



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: 17 January 2006 18:08
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

I'm not saying there isn;t a benefit now and then sharing a Dual pol 
antenna


between two freqs, otherwise nobody would make them. BUt

We have found most tower agreements also, have restrictions in the 
agreement


that disallow using multiple radios our spectrum ranges on the antennas
without paying for that as a second antenna, even though taking up only 
one

antenna position.

We found that its just as easy to sneak/put up a second antenna, without
managers knowledge as it is to put up a dual freq antenna without them
knowing.  So normally you gotta pay regardless, if you do it honestly. It
becomes an issue of wether you are honest about what you put up, versus
sneaking up extra options without paying.   Wether its spectrum or 
antennas
is irrelevant.  Most tower owners don't audit their sides regularly 
because

its jsut to expensive and even if they do, the auditors often are over
worked, and don't always check thouroughly what they are required to
supposed to check.  Most colocators also aren't short on antenna space, so
they are really charging you based on the value you are receiving being
there, not really the actually antenna space. Although special cases do
apply such as with windload requirement of over weighted towers or towers
like clock tower that have a limited number of window openings for the
antennas.

I also find saving money isn't that much of a savings because the antenna
makers then also charge more for the dual pol antennas to counter most of
your planned savings.

However, saving on time, clearly is an option, with only one antenna to
carry and bolt up.  However you may run into issues, where the alignment 
of
the antennas may need to be varied to get optimal signal based on wether 
you


are aligning for 5.8 or 2.4. So because we like to engineer for OPTIMAL
signal, apposed to compromised mostly best signal, we prefer to use 
seperate


antennas.

As a disclaimer: We pay for all our colocated antennas at our cell sites,
and we do that because we honor our tower relationships, and have 
negotiated


good terms, and do not want to abuse the trust they have in us, so we
maintain good relations.  I mention sneaking up antennas only because, 
every


once in a while, we may have sneaked up an antenna to do the inital 
testing

(which often requires it left there for a few days), so that we can avoid
the lengthly antenna request process and timely paper work until after we
are certain that the link is doable and tested.  We justify sneaking the
antenna up, because not only are we saving us time, we also are saving the
management a lot of time, preventing the need to do paperwork
unnecessarilly, if we are unsuccessful in pulling off the link we
engineered.   I do not advise attempting to pull one over on Management
companies. If the Management company does not care what spectrum gets 
used,

and charging just for the antenna space, the more power to you for being
smarter.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Chadd Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna



Who sells dual band antennas? That could save some money on tower space
and
simplify some installations.

Thanks,
Chadd

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:19 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


.  However, I am aware of many successfuly
using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna.


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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-27 Thread dustin jurman
Moto300/Orthogons can do dual payload so you need both polarities to achieve
300 megs. 

DSJ



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 3:52 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna



 What are the advantages of using
 both polarities for the same signal in a good LOS environment?

There isn't.
But having one on standby means, that when someone deploys on that
channel/pol, in seconds you can switch polarities, to get past it.
Broadcasting on DualPols, does have benefits in NLOS environments.  However,
the antenna design is more critical for transmitting on both at the same
time.  Often the Dual Pol antenna is used to create Circular polarity, such
as the higher end Proxim Dual Pol gear.  Or Orthogon that may compare
signals to self correct them.

Tom DeReggi


 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: 17 January 2006 18:08
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

 I'm not saying there isn;t a benefit now and then sharing a Dual pol 
 antenna

 between two freqs, otherwise nobody would make them. BUt

 We have found most tower agreements also, have restrictions in the 
 agreement

 that disallow using multiple radios our spectrum ranges on the 
 antennas without paying for that as a second antenna, even though 
 taking up only one antenna position.

 We found that its just as easy to sneak/put up a second antenna, 
 without managers knowledge as it is to put up a dual freq antenna 
 without them knowing.  So normally you gotta pay regardless, if you do 
 it honestly. It becomes an issue of wether you are honest about what you
put up, versus
 sneaking up extra options without paying.   Wether its spectrum or 
 antennas
 is irrelevant.  Most tower owners don't audit their sides regularly 
 because its jsut to expensive and even if they do, the auditors often 
 are over worked, and don't always check thouroughly what they are 
 required to supposed to check.  Most colocators also aren't short on 
 antenna space, so they are really charging you based on the value you 
 are receiving being there, not really the actually antenna space. 
 Although special cases do apply such as with windload requirement of 
 over weighted towers or towers like clock tower that have a limited 
 number of window openings for the antennas.

 I also find saving money isn't that much of a savings because the 
 antenna makers then also charge more for the dual pol antennas to 
 counter most of your planned savings.

 However, saving on time, clearly is an option, with only one antenna 
 to carry and bolt up.  However you may run into issues, where the 
 alignment of the antennas may need to be varied to get optimal signal 
 based on wether you

 are aligning for 5.8 or 2.4. So because we like to engineer for 
 OPTIMAL signal, apposed to compromised mostly best signal, we prefer 
 to use seperate

 antennas.

 As a disclaimer: We pay for all our colocated antennas at our cell 
 sites, and we do that because we honor our tower relationships, and 
 have negotiated

 good terms, and do not want to abuse the trust they have in us, so we 
 maintain good relations.  I mention sneaking up antennas only because, 
 every

 once in a while, we may have sneaked up an antenna to do the inital 
 testing (which often requires it left there for a few days), so that 
 we can avoid the lengthly antenna request process and timely paper 
 work until after we are certain that the link is doable and tested.  
 We justify sneaking the antenna up, because not only are we saving us 
 time, we also are saving the management a lot of time, preventing the 
 need to do paperwork unnecessarilly, if we are unsuccessful in pulling 
 off the link we
 engineered.   I do not advise attempting to pull one over on Management
 companies. If the Management company does not care what spectrum gets 
 used, and charging just for the antenna space, the more power to you 
 for being smarter.

 Tom DeReggi
 RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
 IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


 - Original Message -
 From: Chadd Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:30 AM
 Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


 Who sells dual band antennas? That could save some money on tower 
 space and simplify some installations.

 Thanks,
 Chadd

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:19 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


 .  However, I am aware of many successfuly using 2.4 and 5.8 from the 
 same antenna.


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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread Paul Hendry
Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
 each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
 are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
 Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
 satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
 adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading 
 the receiver when transmitting with this setup.





-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread Paul Hendry
Because you’re a top bloke ;) I've been trying to track down some narrow
bandwidth 5.8GHz band pass filters for some time. Any ideas on where to get
some?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: 18 January 2006 09:52
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

A tightly notched cavity filter (but then, you lose system flexibility in
other ways)

Jeez, why am I still awake (and why am I responding to listserv emails at
this hour?)

-Charles

---
WiNOG Austin, TX
March 13-15, 2006
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:43 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see
 each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
 are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
 Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
 satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
 adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading 
 the receiver when transmitting with this setup.





-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread G.Villarini
Canopy isn’t economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and
now the SM lite is out around $175.  It’s a tough call not to use Canopy.

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
 each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
 are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
 Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
 satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
 adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading 
 the receiver when transmitting with this setup.





-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread Paul Hendry
Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in the
past they where expensive and had limited throughput. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Canopy isn’t economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and
now the SM lite is out around $175.  It’s a tough call not to use Canopy.

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
 each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
 are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
 Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
 satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
 adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading 
 the receiver when transmitting with this setup.





-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread Bob Moldashel

Paul,

You may have a bad feed horn or you may have a bad radio.  I would 
consider both before jumping off a bridge here..


Tell Radiowaves about your issue and see if you can send the feedhorns 
back for testing. They come right out and may be a quick test to see 
whats up.


-B-




Paul Hendry wrote:


Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we go...


+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???


Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 


-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 

Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.


-Matt

Jason Wallace wrote:

   


List,

When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading 
the receiver when transmitting with this setup.
 



   




 




--
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread G.Villarini
Do some shopping and you can buy SM's for about $250 or less... start at
ebay, The new SM lite has a MRSP of $200 on 25 packs, usually you can get a
17 - 20 % discount from most Distributors.  

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in the
past they where expensive and had limited throughput. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Canopy isn’t economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and
now the SM lite is out around $175.  It’s a tough call not to use Canopy.

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
 each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
 are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
 Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
 satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
 adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading 
 the receiver when transmitting with this setup.





-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread Paul Hendry
What throughput do you get on these things?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 14:50
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Do some shopping and you can buy SM's for about $250 or less... start at
ebay, The new SM lite has a MRSP of $200 on 25 packs, usually you can get a
17 - 20 % discount from most Distributors.  

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in the
past they where expensive and had limited throughput. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Canopy isn’t economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and
now the SM lite is out around $175.  It’s a tough call not to use Canopy.

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
 each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
 are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
 Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
 satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
 adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading 
 the receiver when transmitting with this setup.





-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread G.Villarini
We have Advantage APs , so we get 14 Mbps out of the System

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

What throughput do you get on these things?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 14:50
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Do some shopping and you can buy SM's for about $250 or less... start at
ebay, The new SM lite has a MRSP of $200 on 25 packs, usually you can get a
17 - 20 % discount from most Distributors.  

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in the
past they where expensive and had limited throughput. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Canopy isn’t economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less... and
now the SM lite is out around $175.  It’s a tough call not to use Canopy.

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
 each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
 are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
 Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
 satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
 adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading 
 the receiver when transmitting with this setup.





-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread Paul Hendry
Not so sure it's that simple. I have 2 separate setups that I'm seeing this
problem with so I doubt it's 4 feed horns or radios gone bad at the same
time. We're in the UK and unfortunately the RadioWaves support isn't quite
as good here as it obviously is over there but I'll give em a go.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 13:07
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Paul,

You may have a bad feed horn or you may have a bad radio.  I would 
consider both before jumping off a bridge here..

Tell Radiowaves about your issue and see if you can send the feedhorns 
back for testing. They come right out and may be a quick test to see 
whats up.

-B-




Paul Hendry wrote:

Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few
times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain
why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may help
on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

  

Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

-Matt

Jason Wallace wrote:



List,

When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading 
the receiver when transmitting with this setup.
  






  



-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread Kurt Fankhauser
Are you using advanced sm's too? 

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
114 S. Walnut St.
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

We have Advantage APs , so we get 14 Mbps out of the System

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

What throughput do you get on these things?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 14:50
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Do some shopping and you can buy SM's for about $250 or less... start at
ebay, The new SM lite has a MRSP of $200 on 25 packs, usually you can
get a
17 - 20 % discount from most Distributors.  

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in
the
past they where expensive and had limited throughput. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Canopy isn’t economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less...
and
now the SM lite is out around $175.  It’s a tough call not to use
Canopy.

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few
times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain
why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may
help on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we
go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
 each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they

 are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
 Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
 satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
 adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading

 the receiver when transmitting with this setup.





-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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16/01/2006
 

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18

RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread G.Villarini
Nop, just regular sm's

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:07 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Are you using advanced sm's too? 

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
114 S. Walnut St.
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

We have Advantage APs , so we get 14 Mbps out of the System

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

What throughput do you get on these things?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 14:50
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Do some shopping and you can buy SM's for about $250 or less... start at
ebay, The new SM lite has a MRSP of $200 on 25 packs, usually you can
get a
17 - 20 % discount from most Distributors.  

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in
the
past they where expensive and had limited throughput. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Canopy isn’t economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less...
and
now the SM lite is out around $175.  It’s a tough call not to use
Canopy.

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few
times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain
why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may
help on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we
go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
 each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they

 are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
 Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
 satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
 adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading

 the receiver when transmitting with this setup.





-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

-- 
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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-18 Thread Kurt Fankhauser
That raises a question that I have been wondering. Since your running
advantage APs and non-advantage SM's do you still get 14mbps throughput
on the AP but each subscriber can only receive 7mbps throughput. So your
delivering 14mbps throughput to your group of associations? Or since
your only running non-advantage sm's does the ap only deliver 7mbps
throughput to the entire group?

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
114 S. Walnut St.
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Nop, just regular sm's

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:07 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Are you using advanced sm's too? 

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
114 S. Walnut St.
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 7:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

We have Advantage APs , so we get 14 Mbps out of the System

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 11:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

What throughput do you get on these things?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 14:50
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Do some shopping and you can buy SM's for about $250 or less... start at
ebay, The new SM lite has a MRSP of $200 on 25 packs, usually you can
get a
17 - 20 % discount from most Distributors.  

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 8:09 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Really?? What models? We only use 5.8GHz and when we looked at Canopy in
the
past they where expensive and had limited throughput. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of G.Villarini
Sent: 18 January 2006 10:53
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Canopy isn’t economic viable? Hmmm you can buy SM's @ $250 or less...
and
now the SM lite is out around $175.  It’s a tough call not to use
Canopy.

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 5:43 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Bob, I hear what you're saying and have been through the figures a few
times
and even tried turning the power of the radio cards down to 1dB output
(still unable to run both links simultaneously) but this doesn't explain
why
others are able to use the same radio cards with similar antennas with
little to no problems.

Charles, unfortunately Canopy isn't a financially viable solution at
present. I have a rough idea of these 2 terms but I'll research them a
little deeper to see if they shed some light. Anything else that may
help on
my quest?


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 18 January 2006 00:25
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we
go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see

RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Paul Hendry
Yep. 2 separate WRAP boards in 2 separate mini-box metal enclosures. I have
had a look at the spec sheet for the RadioWaves antenna's but they don't
mention any isolation between the horizontal and vertical N-Type ports. Have
you used these particular antennas before?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 16 January 2006 23:40
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Hey Paul,

Yes, that is exactly what I am doing.  But both radios are 5.7-5.8 range 
without issues.

I can't answer what you are doing wrong.  It should work without issue.

You are using 2 seperate WRAP boards...corrrect??

-B-



Paul Hendry wrote:

Bob, are you saying that you are running 2 simultaneous links through 2
separate StarOS powered WRAP/CM9 on a single dual-polarized antenna with no
other hardware? I have tried this on 2 separate links running horizontal at
5.8 and vertical at 5.2 but still cannot download through one link without
impacting the other. What am I doing wrong? The radios are connected to the
antennas via very short pigtails and about 2 feet of LMR-400.

  



-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

-- 
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Bob Moldashel

Paul Hendry wrote:


Yep. 2 separate WRAP boards in 2 separate mini-box metal enclosures. I have
had a look at the spec sheet for the RadioWaves antenna's but they don't
mention any isolation between the horizontal and vertical N-Type ports. Have
you used these particular antennas before?

 

I have not used the dual polarity Radiowaves.  We use predominately 
Gabriel-Tripoint.  We had some issues with Radiowaves flat panel 
antennas that were not doing the gain they should be (6-8 dB less) .  I 
have not had any issues with their parabolics though


--
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Tom DeReggi
On a side note, for general info, not necessarilly applicable to the task in 
question


Just because an antenna is Dual polarity, does not mean that both polarities 
can be used at the same time by seperate signals. The wiring/circuitry (what 
ever its called for an antenna) may be shared by the two pols, and bonded 
togeather in some way.  The DUAL Polarity antenna has to be designed with 
two completely unique circuits to the antenna from the N connector, for both 
pols to be used at the same time.


Secondly, Any two antenna elements near each other can work togeather two 
create the antenna beam. Just like an Omni or Panel antenna that is really 
just several antenna elements place appropriately to work togeather to 
increase gain and reduce beamwidth.


Its very common to use both polarities at the same time for the same signal, 
but a much different matter two have two seperate signals and not have them 
interfere.


Polarity isolation is often not enough when smack dab right next to each 
other. In theory 90 degrees off polarity equals 100% isolation, but in the 
real world its closer to 15-20 DB, but is that considering between the 
antennas elements right there, or signal comming from the enviroment getting 
shielded out? Who knows.


Its very possible that 5.2 and 5.8 may not be far enough apart from each 
other to colocate on the same antenna, however I don't know that for a fact 
(harmonics and stuff like that).  However, I am aware of many successfuly 
using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna.


The point I'm making is not what can and cant be done, just that not all 
antennas Dual Pol antennas are designed the same, and what you can pull off 
on one, may not be able to be pulled off on another type.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:23 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna



Bob, are you saying that you are running 2 simultaneous links through 2
separate StarOS powered WRAP/CM9 on a single dual-polarized antenna with 
no
other hardware? I have tried this on 2 separate links running horizontal 
at

5.8 and vertical at 5.2 but still cannot download through one link without
impacting the other. What am I doing wrong? The radios are connected to 
the

antennas via very short pigtails and about 2 feet of LMR-400.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 16 January 2006 15:18
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Why would you use an isolator   If we are talking possible adjacent
channel interference then an isolator is not the cure, aditional
filtering would be.  But most equipment should be able to work in this
environment without it. I have sites that have 4 WRAP boards with CM9's
sitting right next to each other on the next adjacent channel with no
issues.

In addition, the loss of power is not acceptable (though it wouldn't be
half power at 5GHz.).

-B-



Richard Goodin wrote:


Go to some of the hard core LMR delers and ask for isolators, (They
will cut your power in half).  Your LMR dealer will need to know
power, frequency, type of connectors.  This may work, I do not know.

- Original Message -
*From:* Paul Hendry mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org
*Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2006 5:14 AM
*Subject:* RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there
anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can
see that
would help are band pass filters.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas.
Not 2
radios on one antenna

-B-



--
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

--
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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 
14/01/2006



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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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Archives

RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Chadd Thompson
Who sells dual band antennas? That could save some money on tower space and
simplify some installations.

Thanks,
Chadd

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:19 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


.  However, I am aware of many successfuly
using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna.


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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Paul Hendry
Indeed and this seems to be what is happening with my RadioWave antennas. I
did ask about this prior to purchasing the antennas and was assured by the
vendor that there was isolation between the ports. Testing suggests
otherwise. Has anyone else used dual-polarized RadioWaves in this way? If
the antennas do have bonded circuitry for the different polarities and I use
both polarities for the same signal what am I likely to see improved?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: 17 January 2006 15:19
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

On a side note, for general info, not necessarilly applicable to the task in

question

Just because an antenna is Dual polarity, does not mean that both polarities

can be used at the same time by seperate signals. The wiring/circuitry (what

ever its called for an antenna) may be shared by the two pols, and bonded 
togeather in some way.  The DUAL Polarity antenna has to be designed with 
two completely unique circuits to the antenna from the N connector, for both

pols to be used at the same time.

Secondly, Any two antenna elements near each other can work togeather two 
create the antenna beam. Just like an Omni or Panel antenna that is really 
just several antenna elements place appropriately to work togeather to 
increase gain and reduce beamwidth.

Its very common to use both polarities at the same time for the same signal,

but a much different matter two have two seperate signals and not have them 
interfere.

Polarity isolation is often not enough when smack dab right next to each 
other. In theory 90 degrees off polarity equals 100% isolation, but in the 
real world its closer to 15-20 DB, but is that considering between the 
antennas elements right there, or signal comming from the enviroment getting

shielded out? Who knows.

Its very possible that 5.2 and 5.8 may not be far enough apart from each 
other to colocate on the same antenna, however I don't know that for a fact 
(harmonics and stuff like that).  However, I am aware of many successfuly 
using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna.

The point I'm making is not what can and cant be done, just that not all 
antennas Dual Pol antennas are designed the same, and what you can pull off 
on one, may not be able to be pulled off on another type.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Paul Hendry [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Monday, January 16, 2006 2:23 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


 Bob, are you saying that you are running 2 simultaneous links through 2
 separate StarOS powered WRAP/CM9 on a single dual-polarized antenna with 
 no
 other hardware? I have tried this on 2 separate links running horizontal 
 at
 5.8 and vertical at 5.2 but still cannot download through one link without
 impacting the other. What am I doing wrong? The radios are connected to 
 the
 antennas via very short pigtails and about 2 feet of LMR-400.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
 Sent: 16 January 2006 15:18
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

 Why would you use an isolator   If we are talking possible adjacent
 channel interference then an isolator is not the cure, aditional
 filtering would be.  But most equipment should be able to work in this
 environment without it. I have sites that have 4 WRAP boards with CM9's
 sitting right next to each other on the next adjacent channel with no
 issues.

 In addition, the loss of power is not acceptable (though it wouldn't be
 half power at 5GHz.).

 -B-



 Richard Goodin wrote:

 Go to some of the hard core LMR delers and ask for isolators, (They
 will cut your power in half).  Your LMR dealer will need to know
 power, frequency, type of connectors.  This may work, I do not know.

 - Original Message -
 *From:* Paul Hendry mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 *To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org
 *Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2006 5:14 AM
 *Subject:* RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

 Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there
 anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can
 see that
 would help are band pass filters.

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
 Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

 I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas.
 Not 2
 radios on one antenna

 -B-


 -- 
 Bob Moldashel
 Lakeland Communications, Inc.
 Broadband Deployment Group
 1350 Lincoln Avenue
 Holbrook

Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Tom DeReggi
I'm not saying there isn;t a benefit now and then sharing a Dual pol antenna 
between two freqs, otherwise nobody would make them. BUt


We have found most tower agreements also, have restrictions in the agreement 
that disallow using multiple radios our spectrum ranges on the antennas 
without paying for that as a second antenna, even though taking up only one 
antenna position.


We found that its just as easy to sneak/put up a second antenna, without 
managers knowledge as it is to put up a dual freq antenna without them 
knowing.  So normally you gotta pay regardless, if you do it honestly. It 
becomes an issue of wether you are honest about what you put up, versus 
sneaking up extra options without paying.   Wether its spectrum or antennas 
is irrelevant.  Most tower owners don't audit their sides regularly because 
its jsut to expensive and even if they do, the auditors often are over 
worked, and don't always check thouroughly what they are required to 
supposed to check.  Most colocators also aren't short on antenna space, so 
they are really charging you based on the value you are receiving being 
there, not really the actually antenna space. Although special cases do 
apply such as with windload requirement of over weighted towers or towers 
like clock tower that have a limited number of window openings for the 
antennas.


I also find saving money isn't that much of a savings because the antenna 
makers then also charge more for the dual pol antennas to counter most of 
your planned savings.


However, saving on time, clearly is an option, with only one antenna to 
carry and bolt up.  However you may run into issues, where the alignment of 
the antennas may need to be varied to get optimal signal based on wether you 
are aligning for 5.8 or 2.4. So because we like to engineer for OPTIMAL 
signal, apposed to compromised mostly best signal, we prefer to use seperate 
antennas.


As a disclaimer: We pay for all our colocated antennas at our cell sites, 
and we do that because we honor our tower relationships, and have negotiated 
good terms, and do not want to abuse the trust they have in us, so we 
maintain good relations.  I mention sneaking up antennas only because, every 
once in a while, we may have sneaked up an antenna to do the inital testing 
(which often requires it left there for a few days), so that we can avoid 
the lengthly antenna request process and timely paper work until after we 
are certain that the link is doable and tested.  We justify sneaking the 
antenna up, because not only are we saving us time, we also are saving the 
management a lot of time, preventing the need to do paperwork 
unnecessarilly, if we are unsuccessful in pulling off the link we 
engineered.   I do not advise attempting to pull one over on Management 
companies. If the Management company does not care what spectrum gets used, 
and charging just for the antenna space, the more power to you for being 
smarter.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Chadd Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


Who sells dual band antennas? That could save some money on tower space 
and

simplify some installations.

Thanks,
Chadd

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:19 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


.  However, I am aware of many successfuly
using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna.


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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Jason Wallace

List,

When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  Dual 
pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large satellite 
dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between adjacent 
channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading the 
receiver when transmitting with this setup.

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Paul Hendry
Hi Tom,

Our tower rentals are all based on wind-loading so a dual-pol
antenna costs the same as a single pol. What are the advantages of using
both polarities for the same signal in a good LOS environment?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: 17 January 2006 18:08
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

I'm not saying there isn;t a benefit now and then sharing a Dual pol antenna

between two freqs, otherwise nobody would make them. BUt

We have found most tower agreements also, have restrictions in the agreement

that disallow using multiple radios our spectrum ranges on the antennas 
without paying for that as a second antenna, even though taking up only one 
antenna position.

We found that its just as easy to sneak/put up a second antenna, without 
managers knowledge as it is to put up a dual freq antenna without them 
knowing.  So normally you gotta pay regardless, if you do it honestly. It 
becomes an issue of wether you are honest about what you put up, versus 
sneaking up extra options without paying.   Wether its spectrum or antennas 
is irrelevant.  Most tower owners don't audit their sides regularly because 
its jsut to expensive and even if they do, the auditors often are over 
worked, and don't always check thouroughly what they are required to 
supposed to check.  Most colocators also aren't short on antenna space, so 
they are really charging you based on the value you are receiving being 
there, not really the actually antenna space. Although special cases do 
apply such as with windload requirement of over weighted towers or towers 
like clock tower that have a limited number of window openings for the 
antennas.

I also find saving money isn't that much of a savings because the antenna 
makers then also charge more for the dual pol antennas to counter most of 
your planned savings.

However, saving on time, clearly is an option, with only one antenna to 
carry and bolt up.  However you may run into issues, where the alignment of 
the antennas may need to be varied to get optimal signal based on wether you

are aligning for 5.8 or 2.4. So because we like to engineer for OPTIMAL 
signal, apposed to compromised mostly best signal, we prefer to use seperate

antennas.

As a disclaimer: We pay for all our colocated antennas at our cell sites, 
and we do that because we honor our tower relationships, and have negotiated

good terms, and do not want to abuse the trust they have in us, so we 
maintain good relations.  I mention sneaking up antennas only because, every

once in a while, we may have sneaked up an antenna to do the inital testing 
(which often requires it left there for a few days), so that we can avoid 
the lengthly antenna request process and timely paper work until after we 
are certain that the link is doable and tested.  We justify sneaking the 
antenna up, because not only are we saving us time, we also are saving the 
management a lot of time, preventing the need to do paperwork 
unnecessarilly, if we are unsuccessful in pulling off the link we 
engineered.   I do not advise attempting to pull one over on Management 
companies. If the Management company does not care what spectrum gets used, 
and charging just for the antenna space, the more power to you for being 
smarter.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Chadd Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 10:30 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


 Who sells dual band antennas? That could save some money on tower space 
 and
 simplify some installations.

 Thanks,
 Chadd

 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
 Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 9:19 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


 .  However, I am aware of many successfuly
 using 2.4 and 5.8 from the same antenna.


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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Matt Liotta
Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. Theoretically, 
you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough attenuation even on the 
same channel to operate two links reliably.


-Matt

Jason Wallace wrote:


List,

When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading 
the receiver when transmitting with this setup.



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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Bob Moldashel

Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast.

1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX 
only or RX only in configuration.


2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal 
polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency.


3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity 
antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power 
levels and Receiver sensitivity..


4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one 
radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is 
receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of 
seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount 
causing receive interference.


5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as 
Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band.  Granted, they have much 
better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly..


6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios.  One of 
the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz.  The other 
has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other.  One 
link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles.  There is no desense between 
radios and both operate fine without interference issues.


7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding 
antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have 
negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower.


Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other 
equipment.  The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly.


-B-

--
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Jason Wallace

Bob,

Item 4 is what I am talking about.  If your radios have very good 
adjacent channel rejection, are not transmitting at high levels, and the 
antenna has minimized any of the coupling I mentioned, then they may be 
able to listen through the noise from the other transmitter. 

A lot of this depends on output power; it is possible to just totally 
swamp one receiver with another transmitter and create a noise floor too 
high to listen through.  In my last post I was thinking like a HAM 
operator (theory-wise) that deals with much greater power levels.  With 
802.11 power levels, it may work better.  It has to be designed right, 
like you said.  No one should think that you can just hang a dual pol 
and do anything with it.


Jason Wallace
Bob Moldashel wrote:


Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast.

1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not 
TX only or RX only in configuration.


2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal 
polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency.


3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity 
antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power 
levels and Receiver sensitivity..


4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one 
radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is 
receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of 
seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount 
causing receive interference.


5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as 
Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band.  Granted, they have much 
better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly..


6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios.  One 
of the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz.  The 
other has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the 
other.  One link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles.  There is no 
desense between radios and both operate fine without interference issues.


7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding 
antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have 
negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower.


Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other 
equipment.  The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly.


-B-



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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Paul Hendry
Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the
problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this
suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is
there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate
simultaneous links running through these parabolics?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast.

1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX 
only or RX only in configuration.

2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal 
polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency.

3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity 
antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power 
levels and Receiver sensitivity..

4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one 
radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is 
receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of 
seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount 
causing receive interference.

5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as 
Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band.  Granted, they have much 
better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly..

6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios.  One of 
the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz.  The other 
has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other.  One 
link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles.  There is no desense between 
radios and both operate fine without interference issues.

7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding 
antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have 
negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower.

Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other 
equipment.  The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly.

-B-

-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Paul Hendry
Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each
polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't the
dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and the
RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is being
caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as the
radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really stuck
with this.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the
problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this
suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is
there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate
simultaneous links running through these parabolics?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast.

1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX 
only or RX only in configuration.

2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal 
polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency.

3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity 
antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power 
levels and Receiver sensitivity..

4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one 
radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is 
receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of 
seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount 
causing receive interference.

5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as 
Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band.  Granted, they have much 
better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly..

6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios.  One of 
the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz.  The other 
has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other.  One 
link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles.  There is no desense between 
radios and both operate fine without interference issues.

7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding 
antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have 
negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower.

Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other 
equipment.  The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly.

-B-

-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Charles Wu
Hi Paul,

I haven't been paying attention to this thread close enough to know your
exact situation, but it is worth noting that there are always extrra
headaches to deal with when trying to jerry-rig consumer grade hardware

Remember the days of KarlNet  ORiNOCO??  Back in those days, when using an
AP-1000 per say, it was necessary to clip the built-in dipoles on a PCMCIA
card in order to stem rf bleed

Thank goodness for Canopy / Trango / whatever =)

-Charles

---
WiNOG Austin, TX
March 13-15, 2006
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:59 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each
polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't the
dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and the
RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is being
caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as the
radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really stuck
with this.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the
problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this
suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so, is
there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate
simultaneous links running through these parabolics?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast.

1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX 
only or RX only in configuration.

2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal 
polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency.

3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity 
antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power 
levels and Receiver sensitivity..

4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one 
radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is 
receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of 
seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount 
causing receive interference.

5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as 
Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band.  Granted, they have much 
better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly..

6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios.  One of 
the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz.  The other 
has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other.  One 
link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles.  There is no desense between 
radios and both operate fine without interference issues.

7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding 
antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have 
negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower.

Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other 
equipment.  The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly.

-B-

-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Kurt Fankhauser
Charles I hope we don't get kicked off this list for talking about
canopy. :)

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
114 S. Walnut St.
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:14 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Hi Paul,

I haven't been paying attention to this thread close enough to know your
exact situation, but it is worth noting that there are always extrra
headaches to deal with when trying to jerry-rig consumer grade
hardware

Remember the days of KarlNet  ORiNOCO??  Back in those days, when using
an
AP-1000 per say, it was necessary to clip the built-in dipoles on a
PCMCIA
card in order to stem rf bleed

Thank goodness for Canopy / Trango / whatever =)

-Charles

---
WiNOG Austin, TX
March 13-15, 2006
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:59 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each
polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't
the
dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and
the
RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is
being
caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as
the
radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really
stuck
with this.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the
problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this
suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so,
is
there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate
simultaneous links running through these parabolics?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast.

1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX

only or RX only in configuration.

2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal 
polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency.

3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity 
antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power 
levels and Receiver sensitivity..

4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one 
radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is 
receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of 
seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount 
causing receive interference.

5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as 
Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band.  Granted, they have much 
better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly..

6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios.  One of 
the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz.  The other 
has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other.  One 
link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles.  There is no desense between 
radios and both operate fine without interference issues.

7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding 
antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have 
negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower.

Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other 
equipment.  The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly.

-B-

-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Rick Harnish
Nah, we aren't selling anything, just keep it civil.  You guys could pay
your dues though, that would help the effort! ;)  When is the last time you
guys heard from the moderator?  Good job!

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482 Office
260-307-4000 Cell
260-918-4340 VoIP
www.oibw.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:09 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Charles I hope we don't get kicked off this list for talking about
canopy. :)

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
114 S. Walnut St.
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:14 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Hi Paul,

I haven't been paying attention to this thread close enough to know your
exact situation, but it is worth noting that there are always extrra
headaches to deal with when trying to jerry-rig consumer grade
hardware

Remember the days of KarlNet  ORiNOCO??  Back in those days, when using
an
AP-1000 per say, it was necessary to clip the built-in dipoles on a
PCMCIA
card in order to stem rf bleed

Thank goodness for Canopy / Trango / whatever =)

-Charles

---
WiNOG Austin, TX
March 13-15, 2006
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:59 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each
polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't
the
dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and
the
RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is
being
caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as
the
radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really
stuck
with this.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the
problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this
suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so,
is
there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate
simultaneous links running through these parabolics?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast.

1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX

only or RX only in configuration.

2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal 
polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency.

3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity 
antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power 
levels and Receiver sensitivity..

4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one 
radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is 
receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of 
seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount 
causing receive interference.

5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as 
Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band.  Granted, they have much 
better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly..

6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios.  One of 
the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz.  The other 
has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other.  One 
link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles.  There is no desense between 
radios and both operate fine without interference issues.

7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding 
antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have 
negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower.

Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other 
equipment.  The link just needs to be engineered to operate properly.

-B-

-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

-- 
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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Kurt Fankhauser
I paid my WISPA dues last year at WispNOG, I think I was one of the
first 5 that paid too.

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
114 S. Walnut St.
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rick Harnish
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:30 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Nah, we aren't selling anything, just keep it civil.  You guys could pay
your dues though, that would help the effort! ;)  When is the last time
you
guys heard from the moderator?  Good job!

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband  Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482 Office
260-307-4000 Cell
260-918-4340 VoIP
www.oibw.net
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 8:09 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Charles I hope we don't get kicked off this list for talking about
canopy. :)

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
114 S. Walnut St.
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 1:14 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Hi Paul,

I haven't been paying attention to this thread close enough to know your
exact situation, but it is worth noting that there are always extrra
headaches to deal with when trying to jerry-rig consumer grade
hardware

Remember the days of KarlNet  ORiNOCO??  Back in those days, when using
an
AP-1000 per say, it was necessary to clip the built-in dipoles on a
PCMCIA
card in order to stem rf bleed

Thank goodness for Canopy / Trango / whatever =)

-Charles

---
WiNOG Austin, TX
March 13-15, 2006
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 2:59 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


Reading further through the RadioWaves docs it clearly states that each
polarization is isolated from the other so I'm guessing the issue isn't
the
dishes or feeds. The radios are mount about a foot from the dishes and
the
RF cable is LMR-400. Is it possible/plausible that the interference is
being
caused by one radio card receiving the signal directly from the dish as
the
radios are mounted so close to the dish? Any other ideas? I'm really
stuck
with this.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Paul Hendry
Sent: 17 January 2006 20:09
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Just checked the specs for the RadioWaves antennas that I'm having the
problems with and see that they have 28dB X-Pol. Rejection would this
suggest that the circuitry controlling the 2 feeds are separate? If so,
is
there anything else that could be preventing us having 2 separate
simultaneous links running through these parabolics?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 17 January 2006 18:51
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Sorry but this whole thread is going sour fast.

1. Dual Polarity antennas work for transmit and receive. They are not TX

only or RX only in configuration.

2. The normal isolation between vertical polarity and horizontal 
polarity can range from 10-30 dB depending on the operating frequency.

3. The biggest issues to using 2 radios on the same dual polarity 
antenna is the adjacent channel rejection, x-pole polarity, TX power 
levels and Receiver sensitivity..

4. 802.XX radios will not work on the same channel because while one 
radio is transmitting on 5825 GHz. the radio on the other polarity is 
receiving on the same channel. Considering there is only 10-30 dB of 
seperation, the radio RX levels will only be reduced by that amount 
causing receive interference.

5. We have more than 20 dual polarity links running FD radios such as 
Proxim Tsunamis operating in the same band.  Granted, they have much 
better filtering than the basic 802.XX radio but they work flawlessly..

6. We presently have 2 DP links in place with 802 style radios.  One of 
the links consists of WRAP/CM9's operating in 5.7-5.8 Ghz.  The other 
has a Proxim MP.11a on one plane and Tranzeo TR-5a on the other.  One 
link is 6.5 miles, the other is 7 miles.  There is no desense between 
radios and both operate fine without interference issues.

7. While Tom may be experiencing the tower rental issues regarding 
antennas, we have not seen this in the NE. Most leases we have 
negotiated are based around wind loading on the tower.

Like everything, dual polarity antennas have a place like all other

Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Bob Moldashel

Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we go...


+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???


Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 


-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of 
attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.


-Matt

Jason Wallace wrote:


List,

When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see 
each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they 
are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading 
the receiver when transmitting with this setup.







--
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

--
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread Kurt Fankhauser
Charles,

What equipment did you use to build up your WISP? Also what did you
start with and what did you end up with?

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
114 S. Walnut St.
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:55 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Hi,

I would recommend that you do some research on the terms dynamic range
and
front-end compression as it relates to your particular hardware /
radio
platform.  Understanding those terms / concepts will give you the
understanding you need to make your homebrew system work

Otherwise, if you want to just plug and pray your network -- you're
better
off probably just buying quality name brand products that have enough
built-in safeties to let one just mindlessly deploy

-Charles

P.S. -- although I happen to have an understanding of Rf theory, HAM
stuff,
and Radio engineering, when I ran my WISP, I found that in the long run,
it
made better business sense to subscribe to a lazy WISP plug-and-pray
mentality due to the fact that I liked knowing that I could focus my
core
efforts on sales, marketing and customer service.  From a deployment
side, I
could just put some stuff up and have the ability to blame all my system
mishaps on my friendly manufacturer / vendor =)


---
WiNOG Austin, TX
March 13-15, 2006
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we
go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see
 each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they

 are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
 Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
 satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
 adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading

 the receiver when transmitting with this setup.





-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

-- 
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Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

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Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date:
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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-17 Thread G.Villarini
Mmm let me guess, he started with wavelan or probably lucent Orinoco
ended up with Trango and / or Canopy before he sold out... for Millions!

I started with Raylink... ended up with Canopy

Gino A. Villarini, 
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.aeronetpr.com
787.273.4143


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2006 3:12 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Charles,

What equipment did you use to build up your WISP? Also what did you
start with and what did you end up with?

Kurt Fankhauser
WAVELINC
114 S. Walnut St.
Bucyrus, OH 44820
419-562-6405
www.wavelinc.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:55 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Hi,

I would recommend that you do some research on the terms dynamic range
and
front-end compression as it relates to your particular hardware /
radio
platform.  Understanding those terms / concepts will give you the
understanding you need to make your homebrew system work

Otherwise, if you want to just plug and pray your network -- you're
better
off probably just buying quality name brand products that have enough
built-in safeties to let one just mindlessly deploy

-Charles

P.S. -- although I happen to have an understanding of Rf theory, HAM
stuff,
and Radio engineering, when I ran my WISP, I found that in the long run,
it
made better business sense to subscribe to a lazy WISP plug-and-pray
mentality due to the fact that I liked knowing that I could focus my
core
efforts on sales, marketing and customer service.  From a deployment
side, I
could just put some stuff up and have the ability to blame all my system
mishaps on my friendly manufacturer / vendor =)


---
WiNOG Austin, TX
March 13-15, 2006
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: Tuesday, January 17, 2006 6:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna


Ah..Lets do some math...

Lets say the radio has a +20 dB output.  For this example there is no 
line loss.  The antenna is rated at 30dB x-pole isolation.  Here we
go...

+20 dB
-30dB xpole
=
-10 dB receive level. 

In my book that is high enough to kill any link of the same freq on the 
opposite polarityNo???

Add to that a radio that needs to Rx and Tx on and off and you should 
have receiver blocking... 

-B-




Matt Liotta wrote:

 Depending on various factors, you should see at least 15db of
 attenuation between polarizations on a dual-pol antenna. 
 Theoretically, you should see 20db. In any case, 15db is enough 
 attenuation even on the same channel to operate two links reliably.

 -Matt

 Jason Wallace wrote:

 List,

 When antennas are separated by normal distances, they can only see
 each other electromagnetically (ie, radio waves).  However, when they

 are close they will experience capacitive and inductive coupling.  
 Dual pol antennas work fine when only receiving (as in those large 
 satellite dishes from the 80's that used 90° pol changes between 
 adjacent channels).  I think you will always have trouble overloading

 the receiver when transmitting with this setup.





-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

-- 
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RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-16 Thread Paul Hendry
Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there
anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can see that
would help are band pass filters.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas.  Not 2 
radios on one antenna

-B-



Bob Moldashel wrote:

 Paul,

 We do this all the time.  Explain what model radios and how you are 
 doing this??  I'll try to help.

 -B-




 Paul Hendry wrote:

 Has anyone successfully installed more than 1 radio on a single 
 antenna with virtually no interference between links? We had 
 originally planned to run 2 simultaneous links on dual polarized 5GHz 
 RadioWaves parabolics however once installed we found that only 1 
 link could be used at any one time regardless of channel separation 
 due to interference. Now the set-up is being used to provide 
 redundancy but would much prefer double the capacity. If anyone has 
 achieved a similar thing would they share how they achieved it? 
 Hoping that some 5GHz band pass filters could be the answer but can 
 only locate 2.4 variants at present L

  

 Cheers,

  

 P.

  




-- 
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-16 Thread Bob Moldashel
Radios can't be on the same channels obviously. We have a link presently 
running with the same configuration 2 channels apart without issues.  A 
dual polarity antenna is going to seperate the two by 15-25 dB.  Make 
sure the tx power is equal on both radios and it should work without issue.


Now if we could just get the freakin' routing to work correctly we would 
be fine.


-B-



Paul Hendry wrote:


Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there
anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can see that
would help are band pass filters.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas.  Not 2 
radios on one antenna


-B-



Bob Moldashel wrote:

 


Paul,

We do this all the time.  Explain what model radios and how you are 
doing this??  I'll try to help.


-B-




Paul Hendry wrote:

   

Has anyone successfully installed more than 1 radio on a single 
antenna with virtually no interference between links? We had 
originally planned to run 2 simultaneous links on dual polarized 5GHz 
RadioWaves parabolics however once installed we found that only 1 
link could be used at any one time regardless of channel separation 
due to interference. Now the set-up is being used to provide 
redundancy but would much prefer double the capacity. If anyone has 
achieved a similar thing would they share how they achieved it? 
Hoping that some 5GHz band pass filters could be the answer but can 
only locate 2.4 variants at present L




Cheers,



P.


 





 




--
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-16 Thread Bob Moldashel
Why would you use an isolator   If we are talking possible adjacent 
channel interference then an isolator is not the cure, aditional 
filtering would be.  But most equipment should be able to work in this 
environment without it. I have sites that have 4 WRAP boards with CM9's 
sitting right next to each other on the next adjacent channel with no 
issues.


In addition, the loss of power is not acceptable (though it wouldn't be 
half power at 5GHz.).


-B-



Richard Goodin wrote:

Go to some of the hard core LMR delers and ask for isolators, (They 
will cut your power in half).  Your LMR dealer will need to know 
power, frequency, type of connectors.  This may work, I do not know.


- Original Message -
*From:* Paul Hendry mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
*To:* 'WISPA General List' mailto:wireless@wispa.org
*Sent:* Monday, January 16, 2006 5:14 AM
*Subject:* RE: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

Radios are WRAP/CM9's with StarOS on RadioWaves SPD2-5.2NS. Is there
anything special you do/use to get this to work? Only things I can
see that
would help are band pass filters.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Moldashel
Sent: 15 January 2006 23:53
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

I should revise that to say we do it on dual polarity antennas. 
Not 2

radios on one antenna

-B-



--
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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Re: [WISPA] Multiple Radios on Single antenna

2006-01-15 Thread Bob Moldashel

Paul,

We do this all the time.  Explain what model radios and how you are 
doing this??  I'll try to help.


-B-




Paul Hendry wrote:

Has anyone successfully installed more than 1 radio on a single 
antenna with virtually no interference between links? We had 
originally planned to run 2 simultaneous links on dual polarized 5GHz 
RadioWaves parabolics however once installed we found that only 1 link 
could be used at any one time regardless of channel separation due to 
interference. Now the set-up is being used to provide redundancy but 
would much prefer double the capacity. If anyone has achieved a 
similar thing would they share how they achieved it? Hoping that some 
5GHz band pass filters could be the answer but can only locate 2.4 
variants at present L


 


Cheers,

 


P.

 



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--
Bob Moldashel
Lakeland Communications, Inc.
Broadband Deployment Group
1350 Lincoln Avenue
Holbrook, New York 11741 USA
800-479-9195 Toll Free US  Canada
631-585-5558 Fax
516-551-1131 Cell

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