Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-11 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

I think it would be a good idea to at least see if they'd have any interest.

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Brian Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 7:28 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


If WISPA is serious about this someone hit me off list and I'll 
investigate

the internal EL contacts to start any negotiations.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com


-Original Message-
From: Marlon K. Schafer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:49 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


Now for the next phase that should happen.

EL should come to WISPA and work a deal with wisps nationwide.  WE provide
access to them on OUR networks.  Then EL stops loosing dialup customers in
Ephrata and Moses Lake.  But no need to spend the 2 million :-)

Hmmm, maybe I'm still ahead of the game after all?  grin
marlon

- Original Message -
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:04 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly



Yep- you are correct, sir- I have it from a very reliable source.

* EL locates on City (or whatever utility it is) poles.
* They pledge that they will allow other ISPs to wheel their service over
the network (many spare SSIDs are available)
* They foot the bill for the install (I'd say 2 million for a small city-
just estimating)
* They use gear that meshes and has intelligence so that it can optimize
and
work around interference and congestion.
* They co-produce with the city an event for the unveiling or wire
cutting and invite residents and businesses to sign up and give it a 
free

try.
* Dialup customers (hopefully) migrate to the new broadband network. Some
mobile users will use the network for whatever it is that mobile users 
do.
*   Police, Fire, Building Inspections, etc  use the free accounts (if 
any

were negotiated) and maybe additional accounts are purchased.
* POSSIBLY Google or someone else rides the network subsidizing a free
tier
of service (300 kb/s in San Francisco)
* And (if the recent posting about Vonage is correct)- EL allows other
carriers to provide service via EL's infrastructure for a set fee.
  These carriers could be  AOL, DirecTV internet, Odessa Office, OneRing
or
even Joes Best Little Internet Provider In Texas.

It looks like it could be a win-win situation and a resource for EL, the
City, the residents and local businesses, AND the ISPs who choose to use
access to it as a means to enter the market in that town. Imagine Marlon
being able to branch out into San Francisco, New Orleans, Philadelphia,
Anaheim and any other markets available just by inking a deal with EL.

I think Municipal WiFi's definition is evolving. It doesn't have to be
*owned or funded* by a municipality, it just has to cover the
municipality.

So far, I think Marlon's described network may fit the description,
assuming
it has adequate on-street coverage.
Notice I have said on-street, not in-building. Getting it into the
building is another project, and there are at least 2 ways to do that.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

snip

I learned today that I already have a few municipal networks myself! 
Much

like the Earthlink/SanFran network will be.

Privately funded, open to competitors, uses city facilites, city gets 
free

services, covers 100% of the community.  Hmmm, sounds like what I've been
doing here for half a decade now!

Ralph, stick up for me here  grin

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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Peter R.

Mark,

How does YOUR view address the real competition that towns have to 
attract new business?

Bad roads? That's everywhere.
Lousy schools? Uh, again everywhere.

But you can't fix either without a tax base and a working (paycheck 
collecting) community.


Many companies tele-source call center jobs. But not without BB.
Medical, Legal, and Court Transcriptionists - all home based, good 
paying jobs that require BB.


Granted I live in Tampa, but I have lived in NC and CT as well.
Cities and towns are struggling to compete for stores and jobs with not 
just other cities and towns but other nations.


- Peter



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


- Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


 


There are numerous studies that demonstrate that towns that lack
broadband are economically deficient compared to towns with broadband.
Job growth, tax base increase, home value stability, higher per capita
income.
  



The economic deficiency drives the lack of broadband, not the other way
around.

You can't raise the dog to life by wagging it's tail.

I live in one of those towns, and have many of them in the region
surrounding me.   Broadband is not the issue.  The economic 
conditions are
driven ENTIRELY by other factors.Just like poor roads don't help, 
a lack

of connectivity may be some hindrance, but building a superhighway to a
depressed community will simply NOT create magic.Broadband 
brought to
these places may have some neglible impact, but the lack is not  the 
cause

of economic problems, nor will provisioning it fix things.

Unfortunately, too many people are riding this train.Politicians are
holding it out as a fix ( BB access has never hurt a town's 
economy, of

course) for things when it isn't, and lots of businessmen are exploiting
that for thier own pocketbooks.   The people who are being sold this 
are the
unwitting victims.   They need real solutions to other real problems, 
and

ignoring them and offering fashionable modern services as a fix is a red
herring...



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East 
Washington

email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

 






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Regards,

Peter Radizeski
RAD-INFO, Inc. - NSP Strategist
We Help ISPs Connect  Communicate
813.963.5884 
http://www.marketingIDEAguy.com



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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Dawn DiPietro

Mark,

I did overstep my bounds a little and do apologize for the last 
statement in my post.


Regards,
Dawn DiPietro

Dawn DiPietro wrote:


Mark,

Many if not most RFP's today require a percentage of accounts be 
discounted heavily or given away for just the reasons you are describing.


The term “Digital Inclusion” is used in this document to describe the 
goal of expanding the capabilities of computing technology worldwide 
to better serve social and economic challenges of underserved 
communities, both rural and urban.


If you would get off your own train and look around and maybe read a 
thing or two on this subject maybe you would understand this a little 
better.


Regards,
Dawn DiPietro



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


- Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


 


There are numerous studies that demonstrate that towns that lack
broadband are economically deficient compared to towns with broadband.
Job growth, tax base increase, home value stability, higher per capita
income.
  



The economic deficiency drives the lack of broadband, not the other way
around.

You can't raise the dog to life by wagging it's tail.

I live in one of those towns, and have many of them in the region
surrounding me.   Broadband is not the issue.  The economic 
conditions are
driven ENTIRELY by other factors.Just like poor roads don't help, 
a lack

of connectivity may be some hindrance, but building a superhighway to a
depressed community will simply NOT create magic.Broadband 
brought to
these places may have some neglible impact, but the lack is not  the 
cause

of economic problems, nor will provisioning it fix things.

Unfortunately, too many people are riding this train.Politicians are
holding it out as a fix ( BB access has never hurt a town's 
economy, of

course) for things when it isn't, and lots of businessmen are exploiting
that for thier own pocketbooks.   The people who are being sold this 
are the
unwitting victims.   They need real solutions to other real problems, 
and

ignoring them and offering fashionable modern services as a fix is a red
herring...



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East 
Washington

email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

 





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RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Brad Belton
I'll agree with Mark on this.  There are many that are exploiting city
counsel's across the country to only line their own pockets.  I have read
about one muni-wifi failure after another...point me to a real success
story.  As a percentage my guess is the failures far, far outweigh the
successes.

If a city wants to drive business and people to their community then how
about offering free water or free garbage pickup instead of free Internet.
How about offering lower taxes?  

Let the city offer something free to drive people into the community that
EVERYONE can benefit from.  After all the Internet is only for the 'rich',
right?  grin

Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dawn DiPietro
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:21 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

Mark,

Many if not most RFP's today require a percentage of accounts be 
discounted heavily or given away for just the reasons you are describing.

The term Digital Inclusion is used in this document to describe the 
goal of expanding the capabilities of computing technology worldwide to 
better serve social and economic challenges of underserved communities, 
both rural and urban.

If you would get off your own train and look around and maybe read a 
thing or two on this subject maybe you would understand this a little 
better.

Regards,
Dawn DiPietro



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

- Original Message - 
From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


  

There are numerous studies that demonstrate that towns that lack
broadband are economically deficient compared to towns with broadband.
Job growth, tax base increase, home value stability, higher per capita
income.



The economic deficiency drives the lack of broadband, not the other way
around.

You can't raise the dog to life by wagging it's tail.

I live in one of those towns, and have many of them in the region
surrounding me.   Broadband is not the issue.  The economic conditions are
driven ENTIRELY by other factors.Just like poor roads don't help, a
lack
of connectivity may be some hindrance, but building a superhighway to a
depressed community will simply NOT create magic.Broadband brought to
these places may have some neglible impact, but the lack is not  the cause
of economic problems, nor will provisioning it fix things.

Unfortunately, too many people are riding this train.Politicians are
holding it out as a fix ( BB access has never hurt a town's economy, of
course) for things when it isn't, and lots of businessmen are exploiting
that for thier own pocketbooks.   The people who are being sold this are
the
unwitting victims.   They need real solutions to other real problems, and
ignoring them and offering fashionable modern services as a fix is a red
herring...



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

  


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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Dawn DiPietro

Brad,

Here is a link you might want to read up on.
http://muniwireless.com/municipal/1556

Regards,
Dawn DiPietro

Brad Belton wrote:


I'll agree with Mark on this.  There are many that are exploiting city
counsel's across the country to only line their own pockets.  I have read
about one muni-wifi failure after another...point me to a real success
story.  As a percentage my guess is the failures far, far outweigh the
successes.

If a city wants to drive business and people to their community then how
about offering free water or free garbage pickup instead of free Internet.
How about offering lower taxes?  


Let the city offer something free to drive people into the community that
EVERYONE can benefit from.  After all the Internet is only for the 'rich',
right?  grin

Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dawn DiPietro
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:21 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

Mark,

Many if not most RFP's today require a percentage of accounts be 
discounted heavily or given away for just the reasons you are describing.


The term Digital Inclusion is used in this document to describe the 
goal of expanding the capabilities of computing technology worldwide to 
better serve social and economic challenges of underserved communities, 
both rural and urban.


If you would get off your own train and look around and maybe read a 
thing or two on this subject maybe you would understand this a little 
better.


Regards,
Dawn DiPietro



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

 

- Original Message - 
From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly




   


There are numerous studies that demonstrate that towns that lack
broadband are economically deficient compared to towns with broadband.
Job growth, tax base increase, home value stability, higher per capita
income.
  

 


The economic deficiency drives the lack of broadband, not the other way
around.

You can't raise the dog to life by wagging it's tail.

I live in one of those towns, and have many of them in the region
surrounding me.   Broadband is not the issue.  The economic conditions are
driven ENTIRELY by other factors.Just like poor roads don't help, a
   


lack
 


of connectivity may be some hindrance, but building a superhighway to a
depressed community will simply NOT create magic.Broadband brought to
these places may have some neglible impact, but the lack is not  the cause
of economic problems, nor will provisioning it fix things.

Unfortunately, too many people are riding this train.Politicians are
holding it out as a fix ( BB access has never hurt a town's economy, of
course) for things when it isn't, and lots of businessmen are exploiting
that for thier own pocketbooks.   The people who are being sold this are
   


the
 


unwitting victims.   They need real solutions to other real problems, and
ignoring them and offering fashionable modern services as a fix is a red
herring...



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net



   



 



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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly



Mark,

How does YOUR view address the real competition that towns have to attract 
new business?

Bad roads? That's everywhere.
Lousy schools? Uh, again everywhere.


Hmmm, all government run functions.  Another argument agains goverment 
broadband networks!  hehehehe




But you can't fix either without a tax base and a working (paycheck 
collecting) community.


Too true.  Ferry county up around me had (has?) an ecconomy almost entirely 
based on logging.  When we decided that Spottel Owls are more important than 
people something like 40 or 50% of the county was out of business in a few 
years.  They are still a mess up there over a decade later.  They do have 
broadband to some areas but that's not fixed the problems with the job/tax 
base.  They've asked for help in getting broadband rolled into more areas, 
but there aren't enough customers for me to be able to even break even on a 
deployment.  The government, PUD, etc. don't have the funds to build it 
either.  It's a very nasty catch 22.


Again, broadband would certainly not hurt anything up there.  But where it 
is available it's still not fixed the problems that they have.




Many companies tele-source call center jobs. But not without BB.
Medical, Legal, and Court Transcriptionists - all home based, good paying 
jobs that require BB.


Yeah.  I don't see enough of those jobs to have large impacts on most 
communities though.  We have ONE medical transcriptionist in our town of 
1000.  Sure it's nice that she can work from home via mp3 files (what's 
hippa's impact on that model though?).


I think we will see a big trend in home based businesses or employment in 
the coming years though.  Why should a company need as many desks, 
computers, toilets etc. etc. etc. as they do?  Pay someone enough to buy a 
computer for home, fund a (cheap) broadband connection then pay them based 
on production rather than attendance.


Know what I'd love to see?  Lots of people working from home, using the 
information highways instead of the brick and morter highways.  Working for 
several companies at a time, as independant contractors.  Then if one of the 
companies you work for goes under, you'll still have a job!  Or jobs.


We have people around here doing a lot of things via our network.  We have 
people earning money on ebay.  We have people saving money on ebay.  We have 
people working from home instead of down at the insurance office (part time 
in each local at least).  I do work all over the world via email and voip. 
I have contact with customers and friends that I could never effectively do 
without broadband.


It's natural for people to want to control their own day.  The job is a 
pretty new thing.  It used to be that a person was an apprentice then went 
out and opened up his own shop.  People's worth wasn't determined by one 
manager, it was determined by many customers.  I believe that the internet 
will allow people to go back to that way of life again.




Granted I live in Tampa, but I have lived in NC and CT as well.
Cities and towns are struggling to compete for stores and jobs with not 
just other cities and towns but other nations.


Nothing new in that world eh?  I think it's always been that way.

Heck, look at the interestate freeway system.  If they'd have done it right 
they'd have just stuck a ruler on the map and made the roads connect the 
largest cities in the country.  Instead they detoured through towns all over 
the place, sometimes bypassing bigger ones for smaller ones, for what 
reason  Why does I-90 run through Ellensburg vs. Wenattchee?


Spokane to Seattle runs right over the top of Wenattchee
http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8z=7ll=46.912751,-119.630127spn=5.110709,9.63501om=1

It often seems to be more about politics than it does the people who are 
supposed to be helped.


marlon



- Peter



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


- Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly




There are numerous studies that demonstrate that towns that lack
broadband are economically deficient compared to towns with broadband.
Job growth, tax base increase, home value stability, higher per capita
income.




The economic deficiency drives the lack of broadband, not the other way
around.

You can't raise the dog to life by wagging it's tail.

I live in one of those towns, and have many of them in the region
surrounding me.   Broadband is not the issue.  The economic conditions 
are
driven ENTIRELY by other factors.Just like poor roads don't help, a 
lack

of connectivity may be some hindrance, but building a superhighway to a
depressed community will simply

Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

There is some important info missing here.

How many are actually running.  What do they cost?  How much do they 
generate/save?


How many are under construction?

How many are still in the planning stages?

Calling the planning stage deployments, deployments seems less than genuine 
to me.  I'm always told that my potential customer base counts for very 
little, it's only my actual customers that matter.  At least to the bankers 
:-).


Jeff just said that he saw something like 200 ap's from ONE building the 
other day.  Were any of those commercial providers?  Why, one must ask, is 
the city (I'm assuming it was a city) putting a network into the area?


Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly



Brad,

Here is a link you might want to read up on.
http://muniwireless.com/municipal/1556

Regards,
Dawn DiPietro

Brad Belton wrote:


I'll agree with Mark on this.  There are many that are exploiting city
counsel's across the country to only line their own pockets.  I have read
about one muni-wifi failure after another...point me to a real success
story.  As a percentage my guess is the failures far, far outweigh the
successes.

If a city wants to drive business and people to their community then how
about offering free water or free garbage pickup instead of free Internet.
How about offering lower taxes?
Let the city offer something free to drive people into the community that
EVERYONE can benefit from.  After all the Internet is only for the 'rich',
right?  grin

Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dawn DiPietro
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:21 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

Mark,

Many if not most RFP's today require a percentage of accounts be 
discounted heavily or given away for just the reasons you are describing.


The term Digital Inclusion is used in this document to describe the goal 
of expanding the capabilities of computing technology worldwide to better 
serve social and economic challenges of underserved communities, both 
rural and urban.


If you would get off your own train and look around and maybe read a thing 
or two on this subject maybe you would understand this a little better.


Regards,
Dawn DiPietro



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


- Original Message - 
From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly





There are numerous studies that demonstrate that towns that lack
broadband are economically deficient compared to towns with broadband.
Job growth, tax base increase, home value stability, higher per capita
income.



The economic deficiency drives the lack of broadband, not the other way
around.

You can't raise the dog to life by wagging it's tail.

I live in one of those towns, and have many of them in the region
surrounding me.   Broadband is not the issue.  The economic conditions 
are

driven ENTIRELY by other factors.Just like poor roads don't help, a


lack


of connectivity may be some hindrance, but building a superhighway to a
depressed community will simply NOT create magic.Broadband brought to
these places may have some neglible impact, but the lack is not  the 
cause

of economic problems, nor will provisioning it fix things.

Unfortunately, too many people are riding this train.Politicians are
holding it out as a fix ( BB access has never hurt a town's economy, of
course) for things when it isn't, and lots of businessmen are exploiting
that for thier own pocketbooks.   The people who are being sold this are


the


unwitting victims.   They need real solutions to other real problems, and
ignoring them and offering fashionable modern services as a fix is a red
herring...



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East 
Washington

email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net








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RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Brad Belton
Hello Dawn,

I appreciate the link.  Pretty sure I've been there in the past, but
nevertheless I'm sure the muniwireless website will offer completely
unbiased viewpoints.  grin

I still believe the cellular guys will ultimately be the best choice for the
mobile user.  Even with today's technology I prefer my Sprint Data card over
hotspots simply due to coverage and the ability to drive from one side of
town to another without so much as a dropped ping.  Stay on the highway and
you could probably do the same from one coast to the other!

The phones today are only going to get faster and offer better services
under one bill with far and away better coverage.  Bluetooth between the
phone and laptop will seamlessly bridge the mobile user's laptop to the
Internet.  More laptops will begin to offer cellular data cards as a
built-in option as some already have.  The muni-wireless play as I see it
today has a very limited window of profitability that is quickly being
closed by the cellular guys.

Best,


Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dawn DiPietro
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 12:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

Brad,

Here is a link you might want to read up on.
http://muniwireless.com/municipal/1556

Regards,
Dawn DiPietro

Brad Belton wrote:

I'll agree with Mark on this.  There are many that are exploiting city
counsel's across the country to only line their own pockets.  I have read
about one muni-wifi failure after another...point me to a real success
story.  As a percentage my guess is the failures far, far outweigh the
successes.

If a city wants to drive business and people to their community then how
about offering free water or free garbage pickup instead of free Internet.
How about offering lower taxes?  

Let the city offer something free to drive people into the community that
EVERYONE can benefit from.  After all the Internet is only for the 'rich',
right?  grin

Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dawn DiPietro
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:21 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

Mark,

Many if not most RFP's today require a percentage of accounts be 
discounted heavily or given away for just the reasons you are describing.

The term Digital Inclusion is used in this document to describe the 
goal of expanding the capabilities of computing technology worldwide to 
better serve social and economic challenges of underserved communities, 
both rural and urban.

If you would get off your own train and look around and maybe read a 
thing or two on this subject maybe you would understand this a little 
better.

Regards,
Dawn DiPietro



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

  

- Original Message - 
From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


 



There are numerous studies that demonstrate that towns that lack
broadband are economically deficient compared to towns with broadband.
Job growth, tax base increase, home value stability, higher per capita
income.
   

  

The economic deficiency drives the lack of broadband, not the other way
around.

You can't raise the dog to life by wagging it's tail.

I live in one of those towns, and have many of them in the region
surrounding me.   Broadband is not the issue.  The economic conditions are
driven ENTIRELY by other factors.Just like poor roads don't help, a


lack
  

of connectivity may be some hindrance, but building a superhighway to a
depressed community will simply NOT create magic.Broadband brought to
these places may have some neglible impact, but the lack is not  the cause
of economic problems, nor will provisioning it fix things.

Unfortunately, too many people are riding this train.Politicians are
holding it out as a fix ( BB access has never hurt a town's economy, of
course) for things when it isn't, and lots of businessmen are exploiting
that for thier own pocketbooks.   The people who are being sold this are


the
  

unwitting victims.   They need real solutions to other real problems, and
ignoring them and offering fashionable modern services as a fix is a red
herring...



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East
Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

 




  


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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

- Original Message - 
From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


 Mark,

 Many if not most RFP's today require a percentage of accounts be
 discounted heavily or given away for just the reasons you are describing.

I don't see any relevance at all.


 The term “Digital Inclusion” is used in this document to describe the
 goal of expanding the capabilities of computing technology worldwide to
 better serve social and economic challenges of underserved communities,
 both rural and urban.

Nice political buzzwords, but does not address why a community or region is
economically backward by comparison to it's surround, or the nation on
average.   The digital divide makes for wonderful thesis writing and great
political speeches and a useful football to kick hither and yon and make
tons of political yardage.My experience is that the digital divide is
far more self-imposed than politically, economically, or socially.
Success for an individual is far less dependent upon things like computers
and broadband, than it is upon basic education, understanding money and
economics, and a mindset seeking opportunity.

Those who have the means, and have found ways to utilize it, have made
broadband a part of their life... It has become indispensable to THEM.
Millions of successful people have not.  Neither is superior to the other.


 If you would get off your own train and look around and maybe read a
 thing or two on this subject maybe you would understand this a little
 better.

Maybe I'm ignorant, but as a long time user of broadband, salesman  for
broadband connections, and operator of a broadband network, and a good
communicator with the scores of customers I have hooked up, understanding
what and how they use their connection, I would guess I have at least some
clues.   There are lots of statistical correlations between bad economic
conditions and a lack of broadband.   There's a lot of words being pushed
about how broadband is essential or even being sold as the driver for
economic revitalization or improvement in these areas.  I completely
disagree with that notion, because my experience is that economic
improvement will result in more people buying broadband, and then making use
of it in ways that improve thier economic conditions.

We're talking chicken and egg here... what causes what.   The fact is,
many things usually need to change in an area to improve the economic
conditions... Broadband, while useful and helpful, does not drive these
changes, nor will supplying it WITHOUT those other factors accomplish much
of anything.Just as building a superhighway to a town where nobody can
afford a car doesn't do a lot of useful things...  There comes a time when,
if economic conditions improve, that highway would be needed.   Economic
revitalization or enhancement where it is needed can include broadband,
provided that the fundamental issues of economics are addressed, and that
market driven supply and demand create the need and then fulfill that
need...




+++
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email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Dawn DiPietro

Marlon,

Comments inline.


There is some important info missing here.

How many are actually running.  What do they cost?  How much do they 
generate/save?


How many are under construction?

How many are still in the planning stages?

Calling the planning stage deployments, deployments seems less than 
genuine to me.  I'm always told that my potential customer base counts 
for very little, it's only my actual customers that matter.  At least 
to the bankers :-).


I guess you missed this link on the page above the summary table.
http://www.muniwireless.com/reports/docs/Dec-29-2006summary.pdf

But if you are really interested to find out more detailed information 
you will need to read more.
There are many case studies on the site click a link or two and you may 
learn a thing or two about municipal networks.




Jeff just said that he saw something like 200 ap's from ONE building 
the other day.  Were any of those commercial providers?  Why, one must 
ask, is the city (I'm assuming it was a city) putting a network into 
the area?


Why would you assume it was the city? The announcement was made on 
Friday and published on Monday. There would not be a single AP put up yet.

Here is another link you might be interested in reading.
http://muniwireless.com/municipal/1570

Regards,
Dawn DiPietro
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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Mark Koskenmaki

- Original Message - 
From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


 Mark,

 How does YOUR view address the real competition that towns have to
 attract new business?
 Bad roads? That's everywhere.
 Lousy schools? Uh, again everywhere.

I really don't see your point.


 But you can't fix either without a tax base and a working (paycheck
 collecting) community.

 Many companies tele-source call center jobs. But not without BB.
 Medical, Legal, and Court Transcriptionists - all home based, good
 paying jobs that require BB.

yes, but these are not curealls for bad local economies.We moved a huge
one in locally... didn't do a blasted thing for our community.  Instead, it
attracted a lot of unskilled and otherwise barely employable people to work
at low paying jobs that really did not make them upwardly mobile.

Those people who DID advance in the company... paid their dues and improved
themselves simply left the area... either to other companies or other
offices of the same organization.Overall, it appears to have become more
of a brain drain to our community than an improvement.   Funny how that all
works out.

Mind you, I am NOT one of these people who wishes they weren't here.In
the overall scheme of things, I think unemployment dropped a bit, and in the
global view, a few people got employed and improved their lives who
otherwise would not done so.   It did not, however, become any great benefit
to the local community, which invested millions of dollars to attract it
here.   The backbone of our area is small business...  The real success
stories have not turned out be driven by high tech, but instead by
creative people thinking up ways to do stuff with what they had.


 Granted I live in Tampa, but I have lived in NC and CT as well.
 Cities and towns are struggling to compete for stores and jobs with not
 just other cities and towns but other nations.

 - Peter


+++
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541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
Don't worry, Dawn :)

I never for a moment thought you had any offense intended.And even if
you did... heh, I certainly won't remember it tomorrow...

You're all one install from being forgotten, as when I'm busy, I don't
really think about the subjects on this list... Just the stuff I learn.

:)

+++
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email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


 Mark,

 I did overstep my bounds a little and do apologize for the last
 statement in my post.

 Regards,
 Dawn DiPietro

 Dawn DiPietro wrote:

  Mark,
 
  Many if not most RFP's today require a percentage of accounts be
  discounted heavily or given away for just the reasons you are
describing.
 
  The term “Digital Inclusion” is used in this document to describe the
  goal of expanding the capabilities of computing technology worldwide
  to better serve social and economic challenges of underserved
  communities, both rural and urban.
 
  If you would get off your own train and look around and maybe read a
  thing or two on this subject maybe you would understand this a little
  better.
 
  Regards,
  Dawn DiPietro
 
 
 
  Mark Koskenmaki wrote:
 
  - Original Message - From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
  Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly
 
 
 
 
  There are numerous studies that demonstrate that towns that lack
  broadband are economically deficient compared to towns with broadband.
  Job growth, tax base increase, home value stability, higher per capita
  income.
 
 
 
  The economic deficiency drives the lack of broadband, not the other way
  around.
 
  You can't raise the dog to life by wagging it's tail.
 
  I live in one of those towns, and have many of them in the region
  surrounding me.   Broadband is not the issue.  The economic
  conditions are
  driven ENTIRELY by other factors.Just like poor roads don't help,
  a lack
  of connectivity may be some hindrance, but building a superhighway to a
  depressed community will simply NOT create magic.Broadband
  brought to
  these places may have some neglible impact, but the lack is not  the
  cause
  of economic problems, nor will provisioning it fix things.
 
  Unfortunately, too many people are riding this train.Politicians
are
  holding it out as a fix ( BB access has never hurt a town's
  economy, of
  course) for things when it isn't, and lots of businessmen are
exploiting
  that for thier own pocketbooks.   The people who are being sold this
  are the
  unwitting victims.   They need real solutions to other real problems,
  and
  ignoring them and offering fashionable modern services as a fix is a
red
  herring...
 
 
 
  +++
  neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East
  Washington
  email me at mark at neofast dot net
  541-969-8200
  Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net
 
 
 
 

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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Mark Koskenmaki
Interestingly enough, the town I used to live in, just a few miles from me,
offers discounted water, garbage sewer, AND electricity as an economic
incentive.   Certainly, the wisdom of our forefathers in investing in future
electrical production paid off handsomely in the lives of the people of the
city.   However,  that town routinely loses businesses to across the border
to a much larger town just 12 miles away, for all sorts of reasons.

The biggest reasons have almost always been outside the c ontrol of the
city...   LAnd use laws imposed by hte state, state income tax and tax
policies, and some are just physical...  location, for instance.

When all is said and done, I think a lot more gets said than done, but the
best successes are individuals or organizations that use their brains more
than average.


+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

- Original Message - 
From: Brad Belton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:07 AM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


 I'll agree with Mark on this.  There are many that are exploiting city
 counsel's across the country to only line their own pockets.  I have read
 about one muni-wifi failure after another...point me to a real success
 story.  As a percentage my guess is the failures far, far outweigh the
 successes.

 If a city wants to drive business and people to their community then how
 about offering free water or free garbage pickup instead of free Internet.
 How about offering lower taxes?

 Let the city offer something free to drive people into the community that
 EVERYONE can benefit from.  After all the Internet is only for the 'rich',
 right?  grin

 Brad




 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Dawn DiPietro
 Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:21 AM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

 Mark,

 Many if not most RFP's today require a percentage of accounts be
 discounted heavily or given away for just the reasons you are describing.

 The term Digital Inclusion is used in this document to describe the
 goal of expanding the capabilities of computing technology worldwide to
 better serve social and economic challenges of underserved communities,
 both rural and urban.

 If you would get off your own train and look around and maybe read a
 thing or two on this subject maybe you would understand this a little
 better.

 Regards,
 Dawn DiPietro



 Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

 - Original Message - 
 From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
 Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:13 AM
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly
 
 
 
 
 There are numerous studies that demonstrate that towns that lack
 broadband are economically deficient compared to towns with broadband.
 Job growth, tax base increase, home value stability, higher per capita
 income.
 
 
 
 The economic deficiency drives the lack of broadband, not the other way
 around.
 
 You can't raise the dog to life by wagging it's tail.
 
 I live in one of those towns, and have many of them in the region
 surrounding me.   Broadband is not the issue.  The economic conditions
are
 driven ENTIRELY by other factors.Just like poor roads don't help, a
 lack
 of connectivity may be some hindrance, but building a superhighway to a
 depressed community will simply NOT create magic.Broadband brought to
 these places may have some neglible impact, but the lack is not  the
cause
 of economic problems, nor will provisioning it fix things.
 
 Unfortunately, too many people are riding this train.Politicians are
 holding it out as a fix ( BB access has never hurt a town's economy, of
 course) for things when it isn't, and lots of businessmen are exploiting
 that for thier own pocketbooks.   The people who are being sold this are
 the
 unwitting victims.   They need real solutions to other real problems, and
 ignoring them and offering fashionable modern services as a fix is a red
 herring...
 
 
 
 +++
 neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East
Washington
 email me at mark at neofast dot net
 541-969-8200
 Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net
 
 
 

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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Peter R.
Well, there is an a good book about the chicken and egg: The Rise of the 
Creative Class.

Dr. Florida has studied what makes an urban area thrive.
It involves what he describes as the Creative Class.

Those are the people that drive the city - with events, charity work, 
spending, yada.

These are the people that are high ARPU.
These people are connected and want amenities like Broadband.

Small businesses don't grow because they can't hire skilled labor.
That's the skilled labor. The Creative Class.

There are no cure-alls. How to pick up a declining town is Complex, 
Multi-pronged, requires investment and community involvement. In fact, 
most politicians are ill-equipped to deal with these issues, IMO. But 
that's politics. I'll leave it alone.


Moreover,  I can see this - like so many topics on this forum - is a 
black or white issue.
So I'll stop my input on this thread.  You have your opinion. I'll have 
mine.


- Peter



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:


The real success
stories have not turned out be driven by high tech, but instead by
creative people thinking up ways to do stuff with what they had.

 


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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Rick Harnish


-Original Message-
From: Dawn DiPietro[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 1/10/07 1:22:52 PM
To: WISPA General Listwireless@wispa.org
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly
  Brad,

Here is a link you might want to read up on.
http://muniwireless.com/municipal/1556

Regards,
Dawn DiPietro

Brad Belton wrote:

I'll agree with Mark on this.  There are many that are exploiting city
counsel's across the country to only line their own pockets.  I have read
about one muni-wifi failure after another...point me to a real success
story.  As a percentage my guess is the failures far, far outweigh the
successes.

If a city wants to drive business and people to their community then how
about offering free water or free garbage pickup instead of free Internet.
How about offering lower taxes?  

Let the city offer something free to drive people into the community that
EVERYONE can benefit from.  After all the Internet is only for the 'rich',
right?  grin

Brad




-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dawn DiPietro
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:21 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

Mark,

Many if not most RFP's today require a percentage of accounts be 
discounted heavily or given away for just the reasons you are describing.

The term Digital Inclusion is used in this document to describe the 
goal of expanding the capabilities of computing technology worldwide to 
better serve social and economic challenges of underserved communities, 
both rural and urban.

If you would get off your own train and look around and maybe read a 
thing or two on this subject maybe you would understand this a little 
better.

Regards,
Dawn DiPietro



Mark Koskenmaki wrote:

  

- Original Message - 
From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


 



There are numerous studies that demonstrate that towns that lack
broadband are economically deficient compared to towns with broadband.
Job growth, tax base increase, home value stability, higher per capita
income.
   

  

The economic deficiency drives the lack of broadband, not the other way
around.

You can't raise the dog to life by wagging it's tail.

I live in one of those towns, and have many of them in the region
surrounding me.   Broadband is not the issue.  The economic conditions are
driven ENTIRELY by other factors.Just like poor roads don't help, a


lack
  

of connectivity may be some hindrance, but building a superhighway to a
depressed community will simply NOT create magic.Broadband brought to
these places may have some neglible impact, but the lack is not  the cause
of economic problems, nor will provisioning it fix things.

Unfortunately, too many people are riding this train.Politicians are
holding it out as a fix ( BB access has never hurt a town's economy, of
course) for things when it isn't, and lots of businessmen are exploiting
that for thier own pocketbooks.   The people who are being sold this are


the
  

unwitting victims.   They need real solutions to other real problems, and
ignoring them and offering fashionable modern services as a fix is a red
herring...



+++
neofast.net - fast internet for North East Oregon and South East 
Washington
email me at mark at neofast dot net
541-969-8200
Direct commercial inquiries to purchasing at neofast dot net

 




  


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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181


- Original Message - 
From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 11:24 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly



Marlon,

Comments inline.


There is some important info missing here.

How many are actually running.  What do they cost?  How much do they 
generate/save?


How many are under construction?

How many are still in the planning stages?

Calling the planning stage deployments, deployments seems less than 
genuine to me.  I'm always told that my potential customer base counts 
for very little, it's only my actual customers that matter.  At least to 
the bankers :-).


I guess you missed this link on the page above the summary table.
http://www.muniwireless.com/reports/docs/Dec-29-2006summary.pdf


Yeppers, I missed that.



But if you are really interested to find out more detailed information you 
will need to read more.
There are many case studies on the site click a link or two and you may 
learn a thing or two about municipal networks.


I learned today that I already have a few municipal networks myself!  Much 
like the Earthlink/SanFran network will be.


Privately funded, open to competitors, uses city facilites, city gets free 
services, covers 100% of the community.  Hmmm, sounds like what I've been 
doing here for half a decade now!


Ralph, stick up for me here  grin





Jeff just said that he saw something like 200 ap's from ONE building the 
other day.  Were any of those commercial providers?  Why, one must ask, 
is the city (I'm assuming it was a city) putting a network into the area?


Why would you assume it was the city? The announcement was made on Friday 
and published on Monday. There would not be a single AP put up yet.

Here is another link you might be interested in reading.
http://muniwireless.com/municipal/1570


Interesting.  Only 7500 b/g ap's in 50 square miles.  Anyone care to run the 
radio mobile map of that?  hehehehe  At least they should almost all be 
indoors.  But that's still 150 ap's per square mile  Yikes.  That does 
NOT count microwave ovens, non wifi devices, phones, cameras etc. etc. etc.


I tought it interesting that they say that there are already so many 
networks already in the area.  But go ahead, build another one anyway!




Regards,
Dawn DiPietro
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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Dawn DiPietro

Marlon,

Interesting. Only 7500 b/g ap's in 50 square miles. Anyone care to run 
the radio mobile map of that? hehehehe At least they should almost all 
be indoors. But that's still 150 ap's per square mile Yikes. That 
does NOT count microwave ovens, non wifi devices, phones, cameras etc. 
etc. etc.


I tought it interesting that they say that there are already so many 
networks already in the area. But go ahead, build another one anyway!


First of all the number you quoted is wrong there are about 30,000 in a 
50 square mile area.


As quoted from the post:

...but our testing shows that approximately 75 percent of these 
networks are set to channel 6, a common default channel. With this in 
mind, it’s very possible to deploy an effective wireless network by 
setting RF channels in a manner that avoids conflict with the existing 
WiFi networks. Additionally, we found that activity on the existing 
networks is very low (on average, less than five percent utilization). 
This means that there’s still room in the 2.4GHz band, at least for 
municipal WiFi networks!


...but most reside in small businesses and homes and they generally 
don’t bother with changing channels.


Regards,
Dawn DiPietro
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RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Ralph
Yep- you are correct, sir- I have it from a very reliable source.

* EL locates on City (or whatever utility it is) poles.
* They pledge that they will allow other ISPs to wheel their service over
the network (many spare SSIDs are available)
* They foot the bill for the install (I'd say 2 million for a small city-
just estimating)
* They use gear that meshes and has intelligence so that it can optimize and
work around interference and congestion.
* They co-produce with the city an event for the unveiling or wire
cutting and invite residents and businesses to sign up and give it a free
try.
* Dialup customers (hopefully) migrate to the new broadband network. Some
mobile users will use the network for whatever it is that mobile users do.
*   Police, Fire, Building Inspections, etc  use the free accounts (if any
were negotiated) and maybe additional accounts are purchased.
* POSSIBLY Google or someone else rides the network subsidizing a free tier
of service (300 kb/s in San Francisco)
* And (if the recent posting about Vonage is correct)- EL allows other
carriers to provide service via EL's infrastructure for a set fee.
   These carriers could be  AOL, DirecTV internet, Odessa Office, OneRing or
even Joes Best Little Internet Provider In Texas.

It looks like it could be a win-win situation and a resource for EL, the
City, the residents and local businesses, AND the ISPs who choose to use
access to it as a means to enter the market in that town. Imagine Marlon
being able to branch out into San Francisco, New Orleans, Philadelphia,
Anaheim and any other markets available just by inking a deal with EL.

I think Municipal WiFi's definition is evolving. It doesn't have to be
*owned or funded* by a municipality, it just has to cover the municipality.

So far, I think Marlon's described network may fit the description, assuming
it has adequate on-street coverage.
Notice I have said on-street, not in-building. Getting it into the
building is another project, and there are at least 2 ways to do that.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

snip

I learned today that I already have a few municipal networks myself!  Much 
like the Earthlink/SanFran network will be.

Privately funded, open to competitors, uses city facilites, city gets free 
services, covers 100% of the community.  Hmmm, sounds like what I've been 
doing here for half a decade now!

Ralph, stick up for me here  grin

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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Marlon K. Schafer
Oy!  You are right.  What I MEANT to say, was that there were 7500 that are 
NOT on channel 6.


My bad.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Dawn DiPietro [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly



Marlon,

Interesting. Only 7500 b/g ap's in 50 square miles. Anyone care to run 
the radio mobile map of that? hehehehe At least they should almost all be 
indoors. But that's still 150 ap's per square mile Yikes. That does 
NOT count microwave ovens, non wifi devices, phones, cameras etc. etc. 
etc.


I tought it interesting that they say that there are already so many 
networks already in the area. But go ahead, build another one anyway!


First of all the number you quoted is wrong there are about 30,000 in a 50 
square mile area.


As quoted from the post:

...but our testing shows that approximately 75 percent of these networks 
are set to channel 6, a common default channel. With this in mind, it’s 
very possible to deploy an effective wireless network by setting RF 
channels in a manner that avoids conflict with the existing WiFi networks. 
Additionally, we found that activity on the existing networks is very low 
(on average, less than five percent utilization). This means that there’s 
still room in the 2.4GHz band, at least for municipal WiFi networks!


...but most reside in small businesses and homes and they generally don’t 
bother with changing channels.


Regards,
Dawn DiPietro
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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Marlon K. Schafer

Now for the next phase that should happen.

EL should come to WISPA and work a deal with wisps nationwide.  WE provide 
access to them on OUR networks.  Then EL stops loosing dialup customers in 
Ephrata and Moses Lake.  But no need to spend the 2 million :-)


Hmmm, maybe I'm still ahead of the game after all?  grin
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:04 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly



Yep- you are correct, sir- I have it from a very reliable source.

* EL locates on City (or whatever utility it is) poles.
* They pledge that they will allow other ISPs to wheel their service over
the network (many spare SSIDs are available)
* They foot the bill for the install (I'd say 2 million for a small city-
just estimating)
* They use gear that meshes and has intelligence so that it can optimize 
and

work around interference and congestion.
* They co-produce with the city an event for the unveiling or wire
cutting and invite residents and businesses to sign up and give it a free
try.
* Dialup customers (hopefully) migrate to the new broadband network. Some
mobile users will use the network for whatever it is that mobile users do.
*   Police, Fire, Building Inspections, etc  use the free accounts (if any
were negotiated) and maybe additional accounts are purchased.
* POSSIBLY Google or someone else rides the network subsidizing a free 
tier

of service (300 kb/s in San Francisco)
* And (if the recent posting about Vonage is correct)- EL allows other
carriers to provide service via EL's infrastructure for a set fee.
  These carriers could be  AOL, DirecTV internet, Odessa Office, OneRing 
or

even Joes Best Little Internet Provider In Texas.

It looks like it could be a win-win situation and a resource for EL, the
City, the residents and local businesses, AND the ISPs who choose to use
access to it as a means to enter the market in that town. Imagine Marlon
being able to branch out into San Francisco, New Orleans, Philadelphia,
Anaheim and any other markets available just by inking a deal with EL.

I think Municipal WiFi's definition is evolving. It doesn't have to be
*owned or funded* by a municipality, it just has to cover the 
municipality.


So far, I think Marlon's described network may fit the description, 
assuming

it has adequate on-street coverage.
Notice I have said on-street, not in-building. Getting it into the
building is another project, and there are at least 2 ways to do that.



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:39 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

snip

I learned today that I already have a few municipal networks myself!  Much
like the Earthlink/SanFran network will be.

Privately funded, open to competitors, uses city facilites, city gets free
services, covers 100% of the community.  Hmmm, sounds like what I've been
doing here for half a decade now!

Ralph, stick up for me here  grin

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RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Brian Webster
If WISPA is serious about this someone hit me off list and I'll investigate
the internal EL contacts to start any negotiations.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com


-Original Message-
From: Marlon K. Schafer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:49 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


Now for the next phase that should happen.

EL should come to WISPA and work a deal with wisps nationwide.  WE provide
access to them on OUR networks.  Then EL stops loosing dialup customers in
Ephrata and Moses Lake.  But no need to spend the 2 million :-)

Hmmm, maybe I'm still ahead of the game after all?  grin
marlon

- Original Message -
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:04 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


 Yep- you are correct, sir- I have it from a very reliable source.

 * EL locates on City (or whatever utility it is) poles.
 * They pledge that they will allow other ISPs to wheel their service over
 the network (many spare SSIDs are available)
 * They foot the bill for the install (I'd say 2 million for a small city-
 just estimating)
 * They use gear that meshes and has intelligence so that it can optimize
 and
 work around interference and congestion.
 * They co-produce with the city an event for the unveiling or wire
 cutting and invite residents and businesses to sign up and give it a free
 try.
 * Dialup customers (hopefully) migrate to the new broadband network. Some
 mobile users will use the network for whatever it is that mobile users do.
 *   Police, Fire, Building Inspections, etc  use the free accounts (if any
 were negotiated) and maybe additional accounts are purchased.
 * POSSIBLY Google or someone else rides the network subsidizing a free
 tier
 of service (300 kb/s in San Francisco)
 * And (if the recent posting about Vonage is correct)- EL allows other
 carriers to provide service via EL's infrastructure for a set fee.
   These carriers could be  AOL, DirecTV internet, Odessa Office, OneRing
 or
 even Joes Best Little Internet Provider In Texas.

 It looks like it could be a win-win situation and a resource for EL, the
 City, the residents and local businesses, AND the ISPs who choose to use
 access to it as a means to enter the market in that town. Imagine Marlon
 being able to branch out into San Francisco, New Orleans, Philadelphia,
 Anaheim and any other markets available just by inking a deal with EL.

 I think Municipal WiFi's definition is evolving. It doesn't have to be
 *owned or funded* by a municipality, it just has to cover the
 municipality.

 So far, I think Marlon's described network may fit the description,
 assuming
 it has adequate on-street coverage.
 Notice I have said on-street, not in-building. Getting it into the
 building is another project, and there are at least 2 ways to do that.



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
 Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:39 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

 snip

 I learned today that I already have a few municipal networks myself!  Much
 like the Earthlink/SanFran network will be.

 Privately funded, open to competitors, uses city facilites, city gets free
 services, covers 100% of the community.  Hmmm, sounds like what I've been
 doing here for half a decade now!

 Ralph, stick up for me here  grin

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RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Rick Smith
well, I for one converted 3 EL customers this week.  2 more
next week so far.

the DSL plant they're working with up here (Sprint local)
is just my best advertising.  Fastest they offer is 512 / 90. lol.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brian Webster
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 10:28 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

If WISPA is serious about this someone hit me off list and I'll investigate
the internal EL contacts to start any negotiations.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
www.wirelessmapping.com http://www.wirelessmapping.com


-Original Message-
From: Marlon K. Schafer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:49 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


Now for the next phase that should happen.

EL should come to WISPA and work a deal with wisps nationwide.  WE provide
access to them on OUR networks.  Then EL stops loosing dialup customers in
Ephrata and Moses Lake.  But no need to spend the 2 million :-)

Hmmm, maybe I'm still ahead of the game after all?  grin marlon

- Original Message -
From: Ralph [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'WISPA General List' wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 4:04 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


 Yep- you are correct, sir- I have it from a very reliable source.

 * EL locates on City (or whatever utility it is) poles.
 * They pledge that they will allow other ISPs to wheel their service 
 over the network (many spare SSIDs are available)
 * They foot the bill for the install (I'd say 2 million for a small 
 city- just estimating)
 * They use gear that meshes and has intelligence so that it can 
 optimize and work around interference and congestion.
 * They co-produce with the city an event for the unveiling or wire 
 cutting and invite residents and businesses to sign up and give it a 
 free try.
 * Dialup customers (hopefully) migrate to the new broadband network. 
 Some mobile users will use the network for whatever it is that mobile
users do.
 *   Police, Fire, Building Inspections, etc  use the free accounts (if any
 were negotiated) and maybe additional accounts are purchased.
 * POSSIBLY Google or someone else rides the network subsidizing a free 
 tier of service (300 kb/s in San Francisco)
 * And (if the recent posting about Vonage is correct)- EL allows other 
 carriers to provide service via EL's infrastructure for a set fee.
   These carriers could be  AOL, DirecTV internet, Odessa Office, 
 OneRing or even Joes Best Little Internet Provider In Texas.

 It looks like it could be a win-win situation and a resource for EL, 
 the City, the residents and local businesses, AND the ISPs who choose 
 to use access to it as a means to enter the market in that town. 
 Imagine Marlon being able to branch out into San Francisco, New 
 Orleans, Philadelphia, Anaheim and any other markets available just by
inking a deal with EL.

 I think Municipal WiFi's definition is evolving. It doesn't have to be 
 *owned or funded* by a municipality, it just has to cover the 
 municipality.

 So far, I think Marlon's described network may fit the description, 
 assuming it has adequate on-street coverage.
 Notice I have said on-street, not in-building. Getting it into the 
 building is another project, and there are at least 2 ways to do that.



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 On Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
 Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 5:39 PM
 To: WISPA General List
 Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

 snip

 I learned today that I already have a few municipal networks myself!  
 Much like the Earthlink/SanFran network will be.

 Privately funded, open to competitors, uses city facilites, city gets 
 free services, covers 100% of the community.  Hmmm, sounds like what 
 I've been doing here for half a decade now!

 Ralph, stick up for me here  grin

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Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly

2007-01-10 Thread Tom DeReggi

Which is why tax dollars should pay for it, and not The winning bidder.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Peter R. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2007 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Muni networks, the good, bad and ugly


There are numerous studies that demonstrate that towns that lack 
broadband are economically deficient compared to towns with broadband. 
Job growth, tax base increase, home value stability, higher per capita 
income.


So is BB a utility? Maybe, but definitely an economic necessity today to 
compete in a global economy.


Regards,

Peter Radizeski
RAD-INFO, Inc.


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:


Sigh

I've got the Roger Boggs syndrome  I guess if someone's gotta rub 
off on a guy


http://www.wi-fiplanet.com/columns/article.php/3652086

Marlon


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