Re: [WISPA] PtP Link Through Guy Wires

2007-08-07 Thread Travis Johnson

No. You won't even notice they are there. Install away. :)

Travis
Microserv

Mark Nash wrote:

There's a tower site that has mutliple towers.  I'm wanting to mount a 5.8GHz 
Trango TLink-10 for a 24-mile link in such a way that it will hit a couple sets 
of guy wires from other towers about 100-200 yards away.  I've not come across 
this situation yet.  Are there any issues or problems with this?

Mark Nash
UnwiredOnline
350 Holly Street
Junction City, OR 97448
http://www.uwol.net
541-998-
541-998-5599 fax

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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations - The Future of WISPs

2006-09-22 Thread Tom DeReggi
 bridging end 
to end on networks.  Its technologies like OSLR that are bringing hope back 
to routing for wireless.  OSPF is not adequate anymore on its own.


2007 will be the year for network redesign.  It will be the year that Telcos 
deploy Wi-Max on every cell tower to flood the air waves, buying into the 
dream of Super Cell PtMP that will not work to the level that they thought 
it would. It will be the science experiment that fails, and forces the 
Telcos to spend all their money, and it will be the time that it sperates 
the men from the boys in network design.  The PTP Mesh, will be neededto 
allow providers to quickly adapt, so they can fight the war of spectrum 
claim, without the subscriber feeling the pain.  The only way to fight mass 
scale WiMax is to use PTP smarter, and have more spaces to broadcast from. 
(Interference happens at Radio not in the air.), It will be the year that 
challenges WISP contracts that exist. It will be the year to learn how loyal 
property owners are to their contract with WISPs.  It will be the year that 
the WISP with the BEST and MOST agreements with MTU property owners at the 
lowest cost, will have the upper hand to be able to afford to install the 
many PTP links needed to build the MESH above the cities.  Its the year Muni 
will crash and Burn, when the world learns its not the street light poles 
that are needed, but the roof in the sky. Its the year that property owners 
will start to re-get inflated values of what their roof are worth, as more 
and more providers fight for the colocation.  The first in, will ahve the 
upper hand, if they do their job right.


It will be the year that companies like Trango Broadband shine, and release 
their new WiMax gear at industry low prices, and forcing other Wi-Max 
vendors to drop their pricing to compete.


It will be the year that investment pays off, and value of assets get 
proven.  It will be the year of acquisition, because everyone will want the 
first choice to buy the first in WISPs, as aquirers will learn the hard way 
how important the first-in WISP's assets are needed for optimized success.


I tell you, its been a hard five years. And this next year is going to be 
the hardest year of all, and not for the weak at heart. But those that make 
it through it, will become the legends of the WISP movement, and either cash 
out because they are worn out, or become part of a dominient entity that 
rules the local wireless frontier.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 10:42 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations



On Thu, 21 Sep 2006, Tom DeReggi wrote:

Just remember OSPF does not detect packet loss, and does not properly 
switch to backup channels or switches to frequently between channels on 
marginal links. So when you use two spectrum channels for 1 link, you 
double your chance that the link will get interference and degration.


OSPF detecting packet loss?  Switching channels?  That's the job of the 
radios.  OSPF will simply use the links, regardless of the channel or even 
type of radio.  ANY FDX radio is going to be 2 radios (and therefore 2 
channels).


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Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
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(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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RE: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations - The Future of WISPs

2006-09-22 Thread Jeff Broadwick
I don't know if you are right or wrong Tom...only time will tell...but I'm
clapping! 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 2:15 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations - The Future of WISPs

Butch,

I do not disagree with your statements.
I'm jsut saying readers may misinterperete the post if my statements were
not added.

If the intend is to do FDX, Using OFDM to accomplish it is one easy way to
do it.

The question that I was challenging is in what cases FDX is appropriate.
It can be risky to rely on two channels in a noisy environment.  What
happens if those channels develop interference? What channels would you move
to?
Anyone can get a good link on day one, but what is the plan for preventing
future disasters?

I'm starting to justify FDX now that 10Mhz channels are becoming available. 
Two 10Mhz channels has less risk and more options than one 20 Mhz channel.

When we first got into this business, we really thought we were smart. We
were trying all kind of neat things. But at the end of the day, we learned
reasons why the rest of the world wasn't doing it already.  Its humbling for
me to admit that publically, but I'm a smarter person for realizing it.  We
were doing a lot with OFDM in the early years. The idea was to use two
10mbps Trangos on two freqs to reach 20 mbps.  Sometimes Full Duplex, Some
times bonded Half Duplex.  The end result is the noise floor got to high,
and it was to hard to move channels around, when needing to cater to what
channel was deployed adjacent, taking up two channels for a single link. 
Selecting FDX might have meant not serving a particular direction.   The 
problem is that when a channel gets packet loss, OSPF doesn't know what to
do, when its up and when its down.  We were setting up OSPF so that they
took different paths with full duplex immulated but if one of the links went
down, the second path (by OSPF) was the other channel converting it to half
duplex in the emergency state.

In general we deliver packet loss less links. But its not just a factor of
the technology to accomplish that in noisy areas. Its strategy of the WISP. 
Using more spectrum for a task than one needs to, can be wasteful, and give
WISPs less options for selecting the channels that will allow them to use
radios that will prevent the packet loss.

Again, excellent arguements have been made on this list, specifically by
Matt Liotta and Lonnie, on how using 10Mhz channels or GPS syncing with Full
Duplex for a link can actually be more spectrum efficient than 20Mhz
channels in Half Duplex.  In real world I have not seen that yet, but in
theory it all made sense.  Its actually those debates that got me thinking
to start doing more PtP links on my network and attempting spectrum re-use,
that I am now more effectively accomplishing.

My general rule is Do you need 20 mbps for the link? Do you demand Full
Duplex? If the answer to both of these question is yes, and it may be for
dominately VOIP applications, then it may very well be worth using OSPF for
FDX deployments.  But there is risk in doing it.  Because if I really only
need 10 mbps, or can survive with half duplex, I'd rather know that if any
of my links encounter interference, that it only takes down half the
customers, not all the customers, because I have customers spread out across
more radios.  Having two radios operating independantly using half duplex,
allows redundancy on the fly, when needed.

My end of the day conclusion was, if in Rural or Licensed, go for it, but
otherwise I wouldn't do FDX unless doing it with 10Mhz channel size.  The
exception to this is that when 5.4Ghz gear is legal, there are many more
available channels where it is less risky to take two channels for a link.

5.4Ghz will be the spectrum that revolutionizes FDX and PTP links in
Urban/Suburban America. 5.4Ghz is almost useless in PtMP on small sectors. 
But it allows PTP links to go 7 miles with margin. Can you think of it now,
10Mhz channels on 100% clear fresh spectrum on day 1, thats 50 new channels,
including polarity.  Or 25 new channels using smart Dual Pol NLOS antennas.
It will be the year of 2 ft dishes, to go the distance with low power
spectrum.

2007 will be the year of smart routing.  Not MESH as the world typically
knows as MESH, but MESH as the definition,  a network with two paths or
more.  PTP reduces latency over PTMP systems, allowing more hops to deliver
the same QOS.  Networks will be designed to go to building to buidling more
often.  WISPS will start to install two antennas as a requirement for every
new install. Networks will be run layers on top of each other in parallel,
so customers have fewest number of hops to the transit locations, but so
more buildings can be served.  In other words it won't be one large mesh, it
will be many small mesh segments, with engineered PTP paths.

This is not a new idea

Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations - The Future of WISPs

2006-09-22 Thread Butch Evans

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006, Tom DeReggi wrote:

I'm jsut saying readers may misinterperete the post if my 
statements were not added.


The parts that you added, though, were specifically related to the 
radio portion of the network (and you were correct there), but it 
has nothing to do with what we did (now 3 times) with OSPF.  It was 
that part that I responded to.


If the intend is to do FDX, Using OFDM to accomplish it is one easy 
way to do it.


OFDM isn't full duplex, unless I'm sorely mistaken.

The question that I was challenging is in what cases FDX is 
appropriate. It can be risky to rely on two channels in a noisy 
environment.  What happens if those channels develop interference? 
What channels would you move to? Anyone can get a good link on day 
one, but what is the plan for preventing future disasters?


This is actually a better question.  The fact is, that MOST people 
who brag on their 10, 20, 50Mbps infrastructure don't need 
anywhere near that.  In 2 of the cases where I built this type of 
setup, there was a real need that a FDX implementation solved. 
These were not ISPs, but a corporate install where they were doing 
VoIP among other things.  The third one was an ISP and they had 2 
links up and running (one in 5.8 and another in 2.4) and wanted to 
find a way to utilize these better (they were previously just 
bridged and STP was running).


Two 10Mhz channels has less risk and more options than one 20 Mhz 
channel.


This is obviously true and very spectrum conscious.

Its humbling for me to admit that publically, but I'm a smarter 
person for realizing it.


:-)  I have a hard time admitting that I _could_ have _possibly_ 
been wrong.  ;-)  (I guess that's just human nature.)


I tend to agree (a little) with the vision that you posted, but 
that's also a bit off the topic at hand.  I guess you get the right 
to stray from the topic, being the long-timer that you are.  :-)


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations - The Future of WISPs

2006-09-22 Thread Tom DeReggi


If the intend is to do FDX, Using OFDM to accomplish it is one easy 
way to do it.



OFDM isn't full duplex, unless I'm sorely mistaken.


OOPs typo. MEant OSPF.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations - The Future of WISPs



On Fri, 22 Sep 2006, Tom DeReggi wrote:

I'm jsut saying readers may misinterperete the post if my 
statements were not added.


The parts that you added, though, were specifically related to the 
radio portion of the network (and you were correct there), but it 
has nothing to do with what we did (now 3 times) with OSPF.  It was 
that part that I responded to.


If the intend is to do FDX, Using OFDM to accomplish it is one easy 
way to do it.


OFDM isn't full duplex, unless I'm sorely mistaken.

The question that I was challenging is in what cases FDX is 
appropriate. It can be risky to rely on two channels in a noisy 
environment.  What happens if those channels develop interference? 
What channels would you move to? Anyone can get a good link on day 
one, but what is the plan for preventing future disasters?


This is actually a better question.  The fact is, that MOST people 
who brag on their 10, 20, 50Mbps infrastructure don't need 
anywhere near that.  In 2 of the cases where I built this type of 
setup, there was a real need that a FDX implementation solved. 
These were not ISPs, but a corporate install where they were doing 
VoIP among other things.  The third one was an ISP and they had 2 
links up and running (one in 5.8 and another in 2.4) and wanted to 
find a way to utilize these better (they were previously just 
bridged and STP was running).


Two 10Mhz channels has less risk and more options than one 20 Mhz 
channel.


This is obviously true and very spectrum conscious.

Its humbling for me to admit that publically, but I'm a smarter 
person for realizing it.


:-)  I have a hard time admitting that I _could_ have _possibly_ 
been wrong.  ;-)  (I guess that's just human nature.)


I tend to agree (a little) with the vision that you posted, but 
that's also a bit off the topic at hand.  I guess you get the right 
to stray from the topic, being the long-timer that you are.  :-)


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread Travis Johnson




Scott,

P-com 38ghz with DS3 to ethernet converters. 1ms ping times, 45Mbps
full-duplex (90Mbps total). Total equipment cost less than $3,000.
Check on ebay.

Travis
Microserv

Scott Reed wrote:

  
  
  I have a potential customer that is looking to replace
a fiber link with wireless. Need best recommendation for a 1.5mile
clear LOS shot. Bridge as it is to replace a fiber link that goes
switch to switch. And probably 45Mbps would be good.
  
  
Scott Reed 
Owner 
NewWays 
Wireless Networking 
Network Design, Installation and Administration 
  www.nwwnet.net 
  
  



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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread David E. Smith
Travis Johnson wrote:

 P-com 38ghz with DS3 to ethernet converters. 1ms ping times, 45Mbps 
 full-duplex 
 (90Mbps total). Total equipment cost less than $3,000. Check on ebay.

As long as it doesn't rain. :)

Seriously, I've got two pair of these, and while they're rock-solid most
of the time, I do have a few issues with rain fade. Normal drizzle and
light rain aren't a problem, but torrential pouring-down-buckets Katrina
flashback rain will make the link drop for a few minutes. (The two links
I have are about 1/2 mile and 1 1/2 miles, and the longer one is a bit
more susceptible to rain fade. They're both running near or at the
maximum legal transmit power, and have the highest-gain antennas I could
find for that gear.)

Also, to stay nice and legal, don't forget to factor in the license
costs. (38GHz is licensed spectrum, but you can lease a license for $500
per link per year. Not a big cost, but something to keep in mind.)

David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread John Scrivner

This is what I would buy to replace a fiber in this case:

http://www.alvarion.com/B100/?ref=wispabanner



Scott Reed wrote:

I have a potential customer that is looking to replace a fiber link 
with wireless.  Need best recommendation for a 1.5mile clear LOS 
shot.  Bridge as it is to replace a fiber link that goes switch to 
switch.  And probably 45Mbps would be good.


Scott Reed
Owner
NewWays
Wireless Networking
Network Design, Installation and Administration
www.nwwnet.net http://www.nwwnet.net/



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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread Travis Johnson




David,

What are your signal levels on each side (the actual RSSI using the
management program)?

Even at 1.5 miles, with 2ft dishes I show you should have a -26db RSSI
and total downtime during a 1 year period of 7 minutes. (99.9%
uptime).

Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote:

  Travis Johnson wrote:

  
  
P-com 38ghz with DS3 to ethernet converters. 1ms ping times, 45Mbps full-duplex 
(90Mbps total). Total equipment cost less than $3,000. Check on ebay.

  
  
As long as it doesn't rain. :)

Seriously, I've got two pair of these, and while they're rock-solid most
of the time, I do have a few issues with rain fade. Normal drizzle and
light rain aren't a problem, but torrential pouring-down-buckets Katrina
flashback rain will make the link drop for a few minutes. (The two links
I have are about 1/2 mile and 1 1/2 miles, and the longer one is a bit
more susceptible to rain fade. They're both running near or at the
maximum legal transmit power, and have the highest-gain antennas I could
find for that gear.)

Also, to stay nice and legal, don't forget to factor in the license
costs. (38GHz is licensed spectrum, but you can lease a license for $500
per link per year. Not a big cost, but something to keep in mind.)

David Smith
MVN.net
  



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RE: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread Brad Belton









Depends on what rain zone hes in,
but I agree that a 1.5 mile and certainly a .5 mile 38GHz shot should be a walk
in the park. I expect alignment is the issue and hes probably
lined up on a side lobe. 



We spend an inordinate amount of time
aligning our 38GHz links. We also use very heavy mounts sometimes as
large as 4 ID. Cant afford to have this stuff move.
grin



Best,



Brad





-Original
Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006
3:09 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link
Recommendations



David,

What are your signal levels on each side (the actual RSSI using the management
program)?

Even at 1.5 miles, with 2ft dishes I show you should have a -26db RSSI and
total downtime during a 1 year period of 7 minutes. (99.9% uptime).

Travis
Microserv

David E. Smith wrote: 

Travis Johnson wrote: 

P-com 38ghz with DS3 to ethernet converters. 1ms ping times, 45Mbps full-duplex (90Mbps total). Total equipment cost less than $3,000. Check on ebay. 

As long as it doesn't rain. :)Seriously, I've got two pair of these, and while they're rock-solid mostof the time, I do have a few issues with rain fade. Normal drizzle andlight rain aren't a problem, but torrential pouring-down-buckets Katrinaflashback rain will make the link drop for a few minutes. (The two linksI have are about 1/2 mile and 1 1/2 miles, and the longer one is a bitmore susceptible to rain fade. They're both running near or at themaximum legal transmit power, and have the highest-gain antennas I couldfind for that gear.)Also, to stay nice and legal, don't forget to factor in the licensecosts. (38GHz is licensed spectrum, but you can lease a license for $500per link per year. Not a big cost, but something to keep in mind.)David SmithMVN.net 




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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread David E. Smith
On Thu, September 21, 2006 3:09 pm, Travis Johnson wrote:

 What are your signal levels on each side (the actual RSSI using the
 management program)?

I'd have to drive over to one end (or the other) to look, but IIRC, on
that longer link, it shows a signal of about -40 or so.

The link may actually be a bit longer than 1 1/2 miles; I don't have my
Big Spreadsheet Full O' GPS Coordinates handy. It won't be longer than
about 2 miles or so, though, because it's about a 2-mile drive, and I have
to use roads ;)

 Even at 1.5 miles, with 2ft dishes I show you should have a -26db RSSI
 and total downtime during a 1 year period of 7 minutes. (99.9%
 uptime).

Our total downtime on that link is probably about a half-hour so far this
year, and the link does give you a consistent 45Mbps all the time when it
works (which is most of the time, admittedly). Heck, most of the time, if
it's raining hard enough to make the link drop, folks on one end or the
other won't have power anyway because of the storm that brought said rain
:)

David Smith
MVN.net
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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread Scott Reed




What about unlicensed?  Anything that can do this link well?

Scott Reed 


Owner 


NewWays 


Wireless Networking 


Network Design, Installation and Administration 


www.nwwnet.net 




-- Original Message 
---

From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] 


To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org 


Sent: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:57:21 -0500 


Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations 



 Travis Johnson wrote: 
 
 

 P-com 38ghz with DS3 to ethernet converters. 1ms ping times, 45Mbps 
full-duplex  
 

 (90Mbps total). Total equipment cost less than $3,000. Check on ebay. 

 
 

As long as it doesn't rain. :) 
 
 

Seriously, I've got two pair of these, and while they're rock-solid most 

 

of the time, I do have a few issues with rain fade. Normal drizzle and 
 

light rain aren't a problem, but torrential pouring-down-buckets Katrina 

 

flashback rain will make the link drop for a few minutes. (The two links 

 

I have are about 1/2 mile and 1 1/2 miles, and the longer one is a bit 
 

more susceptible to rain fade. They're both running near or at the 
 

maximum legal transmit power, and have the highest-gain antennas I could 

 

find for that gear.) 
 
 

Also, to stay nice and legal, don't forget to factor in the license 
 

costs. (38GHz is licensed spectrum, but you can lease a license for $500 

 

per link per year. Not a big cost, but something to keep in mind.) 
 

 

David Smith 
 

MVN.net 
 

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WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org 
 
 

Subscribe/Unsubscribe: 
 

http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless 
 

 

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End of Original Message 
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RE: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread Patrick Leary








Certainly the B100 can and will probably
get you about 70mbps at that range (City of New Orleans gets 80mbps from a
short LOS link and AM gets over 60mbps sustained at 16 miles). It will also
trunk over 1,000 concurrent VoIP sessions. Not too much money, especially for
the value.





Patrick 











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Scott Reed
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006
1:34 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link
Recommendations





What about unlicensed? Anything that can do this link well? 

Scott Reed 
Owner 
NewWays 
Wireless Networking 
Network Design, Installation and Administration 
www.nwwnet.net 


-- Original Message ---

From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org 
Sent: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:57:21 -0500 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations 

 Travis Johnson wrote: 
 
  P-com 38ghz with DS3 to ethernet converters. 1ms ping times, 45Mbps
full-duplex 
  (90Mbps total). Total equipment cost less than $3,000. Check on ebay.

 
 As long as it doesn't rain. :) 
 
 Seriously, I've got two pair of these, and while they're rock-solid most 
 of the time, I do have a few issues with rain fade. Normal drizzle and 
 light rain aren't a problem, but torrential pouring-down-buckets Katrina 
 flashback rain will make the link drop for a few minutes. (The two links 
 I have are about 1/2 mile and 1 1/2 miles, and the longer one is a bit 
 more susceptible to rain fade. They're both running near or at the 
 maximum legal transmit power, and have the highest-gain antennas I could 
 find for that gear.) 
 
 Also, to stay nice and legal, don't forget to factor in the license 
 costs. (38GHz is licensed spectrum, but you can lease a license for $500 
 per link per year. Not a big cost, but something to keep in mind.) 
 
 David Smith 
 MVN.net 
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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread Travis Johnson




Scott,

I think the biggest problem you will have when trying to replace a
fiber line will be half-duplex vs. full-duplex. They are "used" to
full-duplex... and 99% of the unlicensed equipment is only half-duplex.
If you move to Orthogon or something that will do 200Mbps half-duplex,
you should be fine... but you are talking a LOT more money than the
38ghz stuff. ;)

Travis
Microserv

Scott Reed wrote:

  
  
  What about unlicensed? Anything that can do this link
well?
  
  
Scott Reed 
Owner 
NewWays 
Wireless Networking 
Network Design, Installation and Administration 
  www.nwwnet.net 
  
  
  -- Original Message ---
  
From: "David E. Smith" [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org 
Sent: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:57:21 -0500 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations 
  
 Travis Johnson wrote: 
 
  P-com 38ghz with DS3 to ethernet converters. 1ms ping times,
45Mbps full-duplex 
  (90Mbps total). Total equipment cost less than $3,000. Check
on ebay. 
 
 As long as it doesn't rain. :) 
 
 Seriously, I've got two pair of these, and while they're
rock-solid most 
 of the time, I do have a few issues with rain fade. Normal drizzle
and 
 light rain aren't a problem, but torrential pouring-down-buckets
Katrina 
 flashback rain will make the link drop for a few minutes. (The two
links 
 I have are about 1/2 mile and 1 1/2 miles, and the longer one is a
bit 
 more susceptible to rain fade. They're both running near or at the
  
 maximum legal transmit power, and have the highest-gain antennas I
could 
 find for that gear.) 
 
 Also, to stay nice and legal, don't forget to factor in the
license 
 costs. (38GHz is licensed spectrum, but you can lease a license
for $500 
 per link per year. Not a big cost, but something to keep in mind.)
  
 
 David Smith 
 MVN.net 
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 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org 
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe: 
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
  
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
  
  --- End of Original Message ---
  
  



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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread Matt Larsen - Lists
I've heard of some folks using an OSPF router on both ends and two hdx 
backhaul radios to simulate FDD, with excellent results.   Added benefit 
of having a backup link already in place if one radio fails.  I will be 
trying this on my next set of backhaul deployments.


Matt Larsen
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


Travis Johnson wrote:

Scott,

I think the biggest problem you will have when trying to replace a 
fiber line will be half-duplex vs. full-duplex. They are used to 
full-duplex... and 99% of the unlicensed equipment is only 
half-duplex. If you move to Orthogon or something that will do 200Mbps 
half-duplex, you should be fine... but you are talking a LOT more 
money than the 38ghz stuff. ;)


Travis
Microserv

Scott Reed wrote:

What about unlicensed?  Anything that can do this link well?

Scott Reed
Owner
NewWays
Wireless Networking
Network Design, Installation and Administration
www.nwwnet.net http://www.nwwnet.net/


*-- Original Message ---*
From: David E. Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thu, 21 Sep 2006 14:57:21 -0500
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

 Travis Johnson wrote:

  P-com 38ghz with DS3 to ethernet converters. 1ms ping times, 
45Mbps full-duplex
  (90Mbps total). Total equipment cost less than $3,000. Check on 
ebay.


 As long as it doesn't rain. :)

 Seriously, I've got two pair of these, and while they're rock-solid 
most

 of the time, I do have a few issues with rain fade. Normal drizzle and
 light rain aren't a problem, but torrential pouring-down-buckets 
Katrina
 flashback rain will make the link drop for a few minutes. (The two 
links

 I have are about 1/2 mile and 1 1/2 miles, and the longer one is a bit
 more susceptible to rain fade. They're both running near or at the
 maximum legal transmit power, and have the highest-gain antennas I 
could

 find for that gear.)

 Also, to stay nice and legal, don't forget to factor in the license
 costs. (38GHz is licensed spectrum, but you can lease a license for 
$500

 per link per year. Not a big cost, but something to keep in mind.)

 David Smith
 MVN.net
 --
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

 Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
*--- End of Original Message ---*


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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread Butch Evans

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006, Matt Larsen - Lists wrote:

I've heard of some folks using an OSPF router on both ends and two 
hdx backhaul radios to simulate FDD, with excellent results. 
Added benefit of having a backup link already in place if one radio 
fails.  I will be trying this on my next set of backhaul 
deployments.


I have done this.  All you need is 2 radio links with ethernet 
ports, a couple of Mikrotik (preferred) boxes and a few minutes 
beyond getting the links up and running.  A 100Mbps HDX link becomes 
a 100Mbps FDX link for just a little more than twice the price of 
the HDX link.  The nice thing is, you can add more links and you 
have the ability to add even more bandwidth.  Depending on whether 
you what you use for the radio links, you can do this very 
inexpensively.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread Tom DeReggi
Just remember OSPF does not detect packet loss, and does not properly switch 
to backup channels or switches to frequently between channels on marginal 
links. So when you use two spectrum channels for 1 link, you double your 
chance that the link will get interference and degration.


Going two 10mhz channels, however, reduces the risk equivellent to one 20 
mhz channel.


Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL  Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: Butch Evans [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2006 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations



On Thu, 21 Sep 2006, Matt Larsen - Lists wrote:

I've heard of some folks using an OSPF router on both ends and two hdx 
backhaul radios to simulate FDD, with excellent results. Added benefit of 
having a backup link already in place if one radio fails.  I will be 
trying this on my next set of backhaul deployments.


I have done this.  All you need is 2 radio links with ethernet ports, a 
couple of Mikrotik (preferred) boxes and a few minutes beyond getting the 
links up and running.  A 100Mbps HDX link becomes a 100Mbps FDX link for 
just a little more than twice the price of the HDX link.  The nice thing 
is, you can add more links and you have the ability to add even more 
bandwidth.  Depending on whether you what you use for the radio links, you 
can do this very inexpensively.


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link Recommendations

2006-09-21 Thread Butch Evans

On Thu, 21 Sep 2006, Tom DeReggi wrote:

Just remember OSPF does not detect packet loss, and does not 
properly switch to backup channels or switches to frequently 
between channels on marginal links. So when you use two spectrum 
channels for 1 link, you double your chance that the link will get 
interference and degration.


OSPF detecting packet loss?  Switching channels?  That's the job of 
the radios.  OSPF will simply use the links, regardless of the 
channel or even type of radio.  ANY FDX radio is going to be 2 
radios (and therefore 2 channels).


--
Butch Evans
Network Engineering and Security Consulting
573-276-2879
http://www.butchevans.com/
Mikrotik Certified Consultant
(http://www.mikrotik.com/consultants.html)
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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link

2005-10-11 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181
You could go with the Trango Atlas.  Or I've got some of the Airaya gear.  I 
think it's 5.3 only so you'd probably need slightly bigger antennas for it.


And the new SB nexus gear is coming back with great reports from the field.

I think all of those are Atheros based radios.

that help?

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Jory Privett [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link



About 10M  and pretty reliable.  I am currently looking at the Orthogon
Gemini Lite  but would like something a little lower in price.

Jory Privett
WCCS

- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link


how fast do you need it to go?  How reliable does it need to be?

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Jory Privett [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 3:14 PM
Subject: [WISPA] PTP Link



I am trying to do a 21 mile PtP link and need some equipment.  I so far I
would like to have an Orthogon Gemini Lite  but the price tag is pretty
high.  Is there anything out there that would work as well but be a 
little

more cost effective?   Would someone happen to have some used/refurbish
units that they want to get rid of?   I also have a load of 2.4 equipment
I
could trade/sell if someone was interested in that.

Jory Privett
WCCS


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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link

2005-10-07 Thread Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181

how fast do you need it to go?  How reliable does it need to be?

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Jory Privett [EMAIL PROTECTED]

To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 3:14 PM
Subject: [WISPA] PTP Link



I am trying to do a 21 mile PtP link and need some equipment.  I so far I
would like to have an Orthogon Gemini Lite  but the price tag is pretty
high.  Is there anything out there that would work as well but be a little
more cost effective?   Would someone happen to have some used/refurbish
units that they want to get rid of?   I also have a load of 2.4 equipment 
I

could trade/sell if someone was interested in that.

Jory Privett
WCCS


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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link

2005-10-07 Thread Jory Privett
About 10M  and pretty reliable.  I am currently looking at the Orthogon 
Gemini Lite  but would like something a little lower in price.

Jory Privett
WCCS

- Original Message - 
From: Marlon K. Schafer (509) 982-2181 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA General List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2005 11:22 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] PTP Link


how fast do you need it to go?  How reliable does it need to be?

Marlon
(509) 982-2181   Equipment sales
(408) 907-6910 (Vonage)Consulting services
42846865 (icq)And I run my own wisp!
64.146.146.12 (net meeting)
www.odessaoffice.com/wireless
www.odessaoffice.com/marlon/cam



- Original Message - 
From: Jory Privett [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org
Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2005 3:14 PM
Subject: [WISPA] PTP Link


I am trying to do a 21 mile PtP link and need some equipment.  I so far I
 would like to have an Orthogon Gemini Lite  but the price tag is pretty
 high.  Is there anything out there that would work as well but be a little
 more cost effective?   Would someone happen to have some used/refurbish
 units that they want to get rid of?   I also have a load of 2.4 equipment
 I
 could trade/sell if someone was interested in that.

 Jory Privett
 WCCS


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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link

2005-10-05 Thread George
if your looking for a low cost  link, you might want to check out 
Star-Os and their new StarVX WAR boards.
They do 5, 10, and 20MHz channel spacing and are only like 320.00 or so 
for each end.

They do bridging as well.


www.Star-Os.com

George


Jory Privett wrote:
I am trying to do a 21 mile PtP link and need some equipment.  I so far I 
would like to have an Orthogon Gemini Lite  but the price tag is pretty 
high.  Is there anything out there that would work as well but be a little 
more cost effective?   Would someone happen to have some used/refurbish 
units that they want to get rid of?   I also have a load of 2.4 equipment I 
could trade/sell if someone was interested in that.


Jory Privett
WCCS




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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link

2005-10-05 Thread George

sorry, it's 335.00 each end, but you get an extra card.
http://www.star-os.com/prices.php

George


George wrote:
if your looking for a low cost  link, you might want to check out 
Star-Os and their new starVX WAR boards.
They do 5, 10, and 20MHz channel spacing and are only like 320.00 or so 
for each end.

They do bridging as well.


www.Star-Os.com

George


Jory Privett wrote:

I am trying to do a 21 mile PtP link and need some equipment.  I so 
far I would like to have an Orthogon Gemini Lite  but the price tag is 
pretty high.  Is there anything out there that would work as well but 
be a little more cost effective?   Would someone happen to have some 
used/refurbish units that they want to get rid of?   I also have a 
load of 2.4 equipment I could trade/sell if someone was interested in 
that.


Jory Privett
WCCS






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Re: [WISPA] PTP Link

2005-10-05 Thread Scott Reed




Take a look at Mikrotik products and their Nstreme protocol.



Scott Reed 
Owner 
NewWays 
Wireless Networking 
Network Design, Installation and Administration 
www.nwwnet.net

-- Original Message ---
From: Jory Privett [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: WISPA List wireless@wispa.org 
Sent: Wed, 5 Oct 2005 17:14:32 -0500 
Subject: [WISPA] PTP Link 

 I am trying to do a 21 mile PtP link and need some equipment.  I so far I 
 would like to have an Orthogon Gemini Lite  but the price tag is pretty 
 high.  Is there anything out there that would work as well but be a little 
 more cost effective?   Would someone happen to have some used/refurbish 
 units that they want to get rid of?   I also have a load of 2.4 equipment I 
 could trade/sell if someone was interested in that. 
 
 Jory Privett 
 WCCS 
 
 -- 
 WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org 
 
 Subscribe/Unsubscribe: 
 http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless 
 
 Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 
--- End of Original Message ---





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